| Revision as of 03:54, 10 June 2018 editMaineartists (talk | contribs)Extended confirmed users4,991 edits →Bourdain suicide in lead: you are singing to the clouds← Previous edit |
Latest revision as of 05:54, 18 December 2024 edit undoDillard421 (talk | contribs)Extended confirmed users, Rollbackers8,505 edits →Cause of death placement: ReplyTags: Mobile edit Mobile web edit Advanced mobile edit Reply |
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== Semi-protected edit request on 8 June 2018 == |
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| title = Who Updates Celebrity Deaths on Misplaced Pages? |
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{{edit semi-protected|Anthony Bourdain|answered=y}} |
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{{Resolved}} |
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| date = 2018-08-16 |
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mispelled word: couse of death ] (]) 13:43, 8 June 2018 (UTC) |
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:] '''Already done'''<!-- Template:ESp --> – ] (]) 14:13, 8 June 2018 (UTC) |
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==Cause of death== |
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| accessdate = 2021-05-12}} |
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* Several say suicide, which given his age and that he was seemingly in top form is surprising. Does this belong in the lede of the article? ] (]) 13:51, 8 June 2018 (UTC) |
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::It's in the text now. And by the way, suicide is not a matter of age or physical condition. --] (]) 14:04, 8 June 2018 (UTC) |
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:::<small>No, but generally people who are successful in their fields of endeavor are less likely to commit suicide than those who've met with rejection, failure, etc. One shouldn't need to explain that, even to an . – ] (]) 14:08, 8 June 2018 (UTC)</small> |
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::::{{re|Sca}} Depression is such that it can hit no matter how successful you are. And the C.O.D. is not confirmed, so it's been taken out. – ] (]) 14:12, 8 June 2018 (UTC) |
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:::::::<small>@ Sca: Yes, I am just a frigging little IP and still I have the right to speak my mind, when I see something as naive as your conjecture. You are reasoning like a kid. Fame and success don't prevent people from committing suicide, because there are two sides to their lives. The successful public life and their internal conflicts. What do you know about his worries, problems and inner demons? Suicide is the result of a disease called depression, that can hit all of us, but I shouldn't be telling this to a grown up man. Or should I?--] (]) 19:30, 8 June 2018 (UTC)</small> |
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:::::], I realize that; I was talking about the likelihood of suicide. BTW, both AFP and DPA state flatly that he committed suicide – although both attribute that to CNN (for which Bourdain worked). ] (]) 14:25, 8 June 2018 (UTC) |
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::::::{{re|Sca}} That's from an article written about the suicide of ]. Being successful doesn't make one less likely to attempt suicide, it just means some of the underlying factors are different. And yes, now the C.O.D. is being given in a more concrete manner. – ] (]) 15:41, 8 June 2018 (UTC) |
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:::::::::<small>], I request that you (and our Rt. Hon. IPU) cease lecturing me about the prevalence of depression and suicide, "inner demons," etc. I'm aware of all those aspects. The point in this case is, it's quite shocking. ''Guardian'': "The girlfriend of TV chef Anthony Bourdain ... (said) friends and family reacted with to his death at the age of 61." That which is surprising or shocking, in conjunction with a celebrated personality, is newsworthy. (However, I don't think this is signficant enough for a blurb.) – ] (]) 21:15, 8 June 2018 (UTC)</small> |
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::::::: and quote the local prosecutor's office as saying Bourdain hung himself in his hotel room in posh ]. – ] (]) 21:15, 8 June 2018 (UTC) |
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::::::::::{{re|Sca}} Lecturing was not my intent, so for coming across that way I apologize. – ] (]) 21:33, 8 June 2018 (UTC) |
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:::::::::::10-4 & thanx. ] (]) 01:59, 9 June 2018 (UTC) |
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{{od}} |
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I added suicide to article lead section, as it's a major factor in this story. ] (]) 13:59, 9 June 2018 (UTC) |
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:Unfortunately, this major salient fact was arbitrarily and unilaterally deleted by ]. I request that it be replaced (at the end of the third paragraph). See further discussion below. ] (]) 21:38, 9 June 2018 (UTC) |
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== Semi-protected edit request on 8 June 2018 == |
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{{edit semi-protected|Anthony Bourdain|answered=yes}} |
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Please correct a spelling error. It is a CAUSE of death. This was incorrectly spelled. ] (]) 14:21, 8 June 2018 (UTC) |
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:] '''Not done:''' it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a ] if appropriate.<!-- Template:ESp --> <span style="text-shadow:#396 0.2em 0.2em 0.5em; class=texhtml">] (] • ])</span> 15:18, 8 June 2018 (UTC) |
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== Date of death == |
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His date of death was actually the 7th. ] (]) 17:16, 8 June 2018 (UTC) |
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:I see nothing in that source that nails the date of death. Bourdain was found dead in his room on the morning of Friday, <s>9</s> 8 June. He took his life overnight. Without an exact time of death, we can only refer to the time that the body was discovered. ] (]) 04:03, 9 June 2018 (UTC) |
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::It was Friday, 8 June. ] (]) 04:54, 9 June 2018 (UTC) |
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:::Thanks, fixed my typo. ] (]) 14:31, 9 June 2018 (UTC) |
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== Cause vs manner of death == |
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The infobox currently says Cause of death = suicide. Suicide is in fact the manner of death, while hanging would be the cause of death. ] (]) 19:47, 8 June 2018 (UTC) |
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:Source for "suicide by hanging"? All I've found is "discovered unresponsive" and "''apparent'' suicide", etc. —] (]) 20:01, 8 June 2018 (UTC) |
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:: "6:15 p.m. A prosecutor in France says Anthony Bourdain apparently hanged himself in a luxury hotel in the small town of Kaysersberg." Source --> by ], '']'', June 8, 2018 ] ] (]) 20:36, 8 June 2018 (UTC) |
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:::Thx! ] (]) 20:46, 8 June 2018 (UTC) |
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:::{{resolved|20:46, 8 June 2018 (UTC)}} |
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== '''Death''' and quoted media eulogies == |
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Since when did WP become a place for endless eulogized quotations under the heading: '''Death'''? Where does it end? ] (]) 12:03, 9 June 2018 (UTC) |
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== Bibliography == |
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== Autoerotic Asphyxiation? == |
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I have commenced a tidy-up of the Bibliography section using cite templates. Capitalization and punctuation follow '''''standard cataloguing rules''''' in ] and ], as much as Misplaced Pages templates allow it. ISBNs and other persistent identifiers, where available, are commented out, but still available for reference. This is a work in progress; feel free to continue. ] (]) 01:08, 4 April 2022 (UTC) |
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The published descriptions of Bourdain's death all refer to "apparent suicide". One article mentions that he used his bathrobe belt. But there is no mention anywhere of a suicide note, and no source that I've found is even considering the possibility of Autoerotic Asphyxiation. I've seen no mention of depression, of any reason why he might be suicidal, any negative events in his life or any evidence that he might fear a long and painful death by illness. |
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== NPOV issue in wording around quote about MSG myth? == |
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I would be reluctant to classify a hanging death as a suicide without evidence to rule out an AEA accident. Can any editor find a news source that provides evidence to rule out AEA?] (]) 14:37, 9 June 2018 (UTC) |
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In the ] section, it says "Regarding what he considered to be the myth that monosodium glutamate in Chinese food is unhealthy{{nbsp}}..." Does that wording seem to imply that it was merely believed to be a myth by Bourdain but may not be? In other words is this a case of giving undue weight to a viewpoint? For comparison, the article on ] plainly calls "Chinese restaurant syndrome" a myth in the lead section and provides sources. ] (]) 01:50, 11 May 2022 (UTC) |
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:No news sources so far have mentioned anything other than suicide. Keep this in mind, though: we aren't supposed to be sleuths and we don't use ] to draw conclusions on article subjects. Also keep in mind this is a ] - the policies on BLPs are stricter and allegations or supposition is just not appropriate for this article. If the coroner releases a statement saying his death was not a suicide, then we can add it into the content. But nothing before that. All reports are stating "apparent suicide". We should leave it at that for now. There's no ] in Misplaced Pages. '''<span style="text-shadow: 4px 4px 15px #0099FF, -4px -4px 15px #99FF00;">]</span>''' ● <span style="text-shadow: 4px 4px 15px #FF9900, -4px -4px 15px #FF0099;">] ]</span> 14:56, 9 June 2018 (UTC) |
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::We ] guess stuff on Misplaced Pages. We only ] reliable sources. ] ] 00:12, 10 June 2018 (UTC) |
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== Bourdain suicide in lead == |
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== Anthony Bourdain on Archer == |
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Anthony Bourdain played himself on Archer. But I can’t see no mention of it on this page. Can somebody please add. ] (]) 13:28, 26 August 2023 (UTC) |
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@Bus stop:, can you explain why suicide is "not important enough" to be in the lede? It is the single most prominent aspect of recent news coverage, and, like the case of Robin Williams, it will long be associated with the name Anthony Bourdain. |
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== Cause of death placement == |
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I'm normally not one to engage in edit-warring, but unless you can offer a persuasive argument based on editorial factors, rather than personal ones, I will feel compelled to put it back. Thank you. Sca (talk) 14:18, 9 June 2018 (UTC) |
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Is there a need to have the cause of death right up below his death and birth dates? It is rare for that to be there, normally death has a section later in the article. It seems to grab the attention massively from the many other things in his life, which seems unfair. ] (]) 18:07, 3 July 2024 (UTC) |
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:It is simply a cause of death. His notability is much wider than his death by suicide. I didn't cite any ''personal reasons'' in my edit summary. In looking at the entire scheme of his life, the fact that he died by suicide is relatively insignificant. Obviously news sources are going to make much of this in the moment because a well-known individual's life has come to an end. And some causes of death are are more interesting than others. Suicide raises questions of motivation for suicide, meaning what caused him to take his own life. But that is not known. So, just saying in the lead that he committed suicide is uncalled for. If a note is discovered, for instance, in which he reveals why he is taking his own life, the act of suicide probably becomes more significant, in my opinion. Or if a person comes forward saying that Bourdain confided his intentions to commit suicide and the reason(s) why, that too would probably increase the significance of the suicide, in my opinion. But simply that he took his own life does not belong in the lead. It is covered as it should be in the body of the article.<br> |
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:I am moving this here from my Talk page so others may weigh in. ] (]) 14:54, 9 June 2018 (UTC) |
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::I agree with Bus stop, and I think his points are standard practice in the ledes of articles about notable persons who've committed suicide. ] (]) 15:01, 9 June 2018 (UTC) |
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:::What about ]? Exact same scenario. ] (]) 15:41, 9 June 2018 (UTC) |
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::::In the lead of Robin Williams we read "His wife attributed the reason for his suicide to Williams' struggle with Lewy body disease." ] (]) 15:52, 9 June 2018 (UTC) |
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:::::Your point? It was still ruled a suicide. And it's in the lead. And it's one of the things, despite his long life of notability for his acting and comedy, that he's now known for. Just like Bourdain. '''<span style="text-shadow: 4px 4px 15px #0099FF, -4px -4px 15px #99FF00;">]</span>''' ● <span style="text-shadow: 4px 4px 15px #FF9900, -4px -4px 15px #FF0099;">] ]</span> 16:04, 9 June 2018 (UTC) |
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::::::Yes, he was a comedian. He developed Lewy body dementia. He could no longer function as a comedian. His wife offers the suggestion that his awareness of this problem prompted him to take his life. Such information is more substantial than simply an assertion that someone died of suicide. I think this provides one of the many dividing lines between what belongs in a lead and what does not. Bare facts that are not essential to notability can and should be taken up in the body of the article. But such bare facts are not suitable for the lead because they are not important enough, in and of themselves, for inclusion in the lead. There is more information conveyed when sources elaborate on meaningful details. That information suggests that the disease (Lewy body dementia) so hobbled his ability to do that which was so important to him that he preferred death to the effects of that disease. One criteria for inclusion in a lead is substantiality, especially when the reasons for notability overshadow a given bare fact. ] (]) 16:25, 9 June 2018 (UTC) |
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:::::::Hmm. "He could no longer function as a comedian" You knew Robin Williams? Did he leave you a note just before he died telling you all this? Wow. So, just because you don't know why Bourdain killed himself, somehow you deem his suicide unsubstantial? simply because you cannot offer a rationale to satisfy your own personal reasoning to include in a WP lede? There is nothing in WP policy or regulations that allowed the William's suicide to be placed in the lede that aligns with your personal assessment of his death and motives. Once the suicide of Bourdain is confirmed, there must have been a "reason" - just like Williams - and for whatever reason: he took his life. You have no idea whether it was related to work or not; and it should not matter. '''The suicide is notable, not the reason.''' ''You'' cannot make that judgment as an editor at WP. ''You'' were not there. Even if Bourdain's ex-wife says a million different things about his personal life, his death is still notable and will define him due to his popularity and media spotlight. Plain and simple. Everyone knows ] killed herself by drowning and it is right in her lede. She suffered from depression. The motive is not the reason it is in the lede. The notable act is. Her motives for killing herself (as you are trying to argue with Williams) have nothing to do with her career. You are projecting. ] (]) 16:43, 9 June 2018 (UTC) |
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::::::::No, I am not "projecting". Please read and/or listen to . ] (]) 16:48, 9 June 2018 (UTC) |
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::::::::The point I have in mind is considerably into that interview. Please search in the transcript for the following: ''"By that point, you know, a lot of the symptoms of what we now understand he was going through were showing up. And, you know, Cheri, as she described it - I mean, she just made this suggestion of something that she hoped would lift his spirits a little bit - that he wasn't going out at night anymore and that he was starting to have what he felt were memory problems and not remembering dialogue. And so her suggestion to him was, well, why don't you go to one of the clubs here where we're filming and just make a surprise appearance, and you'll see really how much people love you and are happy to see you. And that tore him up - that he - that's when he expressed that to her - that feeling of, you know, I can't be funny anymore. And that was, I think, devastating for both of them."'' ] (]) 17:00, 9 June 2018 (UTC) |
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{{od}}So what is your point here? It really makes no sense. Williams committed suicide for his reasons. Bourdain committed suicide for his. Where in WP policy does it say there must be a substantial reason for suicide inclusion in a celebrity lede? His death is notable and defining. Plain and simple. ] (]) 17:15, 9 June 2018 (UTC) |
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::How is his death "defining"? Bear in mind that the article was created in 2004. We are capable of exercising judgement. You are writing "Williams committed suicide for his reasons. Bourdain committed suicide for his." But there is more substantial information as reported by sources in association with one suicide relative to the other suicide. Surely you would agree that we have margin for maneuverability on a question such as whether death by suicide gets included in a lead or not? Or are you of the opinion that policy dictates that too? A lead summarizes an article but not necessarily everything in it. ] (]) 17:44, 9 June 2018 (UTC) |
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::You say ''so what's my point?'' Did you read the part where the interviewer says "You describe him kind of breaking down and saying, you know, I'm not funny, and I can't be funny anymore." It is no longer a bare fact that he committed suicide. Sources are providing additional information surrounding the suicide. And the person being interviewed says "And that tore him up - that he - that's when he expressed that to her - that feeling of, you know, I can't be funny anymore. And that was, I think, devastating for both of them." The suggestion that a cognitive disorder might have led to a suicide makes this no longer a bare fact. The pairing of two facts—a suicide and a disease—makes for a more substantial third entity and arguably something warranting inclusion in the lead. ] (]) 18:12, 9 June 2018 (UTC) |
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*'''Include''' only after suicide is confirmed. Unfortunately, because of Bourdain's popularity and celebrity relevance at the time of his death, and if it is confirmed to be suicide, the manner in which he died will be part of his notability. Just as with Robin Williams. Based on that, suicide should be placed in the lede once it is confirmed. '''<span style="text-shadow: 4px 4px 15px #0099FF, -4px -4px 15px #99FF00;">]</span>''' ● <span style="text-shadow: 4px 4px 15px #FF9900, -4px -4px 15px #FF0099;">] ]</span> 15:44, 9 June 2018 (UTC) |
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* '''Include''' this is a major fact in his life and is what news will focus on for some time. ] (]) 15:53, 9 June 2018 (UTC) |
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::As a simple unelaborated-upon fact it doesn't belong in the lead because his notability was considerable ''before'' his suicide. ] (]) 16:06, 9 June 2018 (UTC) |
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*'''Include''' once confirmed. ] (]) 16:44, 9 Ju::ne 2018 (UTC) |
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:: It's an infobox and there's a place for it, that's why it's listed. I would urge you to create an account and make the constructive edits you see fit. In my opinion, having the cause of death in the infobox neither adds nor takes away from the article; however, the Misplaced Pages is a place for facts, and we have to maintain a ]. He died of suicide. Those are unfortunate facts. <b><span style= "font-family: Geneva, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; color:#00C000"> ]] <sup>(])</sup></span></b> 05:54, 18 December 2024 (UTC) |
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::'''⇒ ''Once again:''''' , and other RSs quote the local prosecutor's office as saying Bourdain ''hung himself'' in his hotel room in ]. Further, Christian de Rocquigny du Fayel, the public prosecutor for ], France, said "at this stage, nothing suggests the intervention of a third party." He added that Bourdain's body bore no signs of violence, and that toxicology tests would determine whether drugs or medications were present in the . |
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::How much confirmation do we need? Mr. Bourdain <small>(of whose I was a fan)</small> committed suicide. When I put that, in very brief , at the end of the third paragraph, I only said "apparent" because an official ruling probably hadn't yet been issued – but given the facts of the disposition of his body when discovered one cannot reasonably doubt that it will be issued and that the official ruling will be suicide. |
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::Why are we hesitating to include this hugely salient fact in the lede? Whose feelings do we think we're protecting? Everyone who has taken an interest in this event now knows that it was suicide. That is a '''fact'''. ] (]) 21:34, 9 June 2018 (UTC) |
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:::Yes, he {{tq|"hung himself"}}. Is this an article about someone who is notable for hanging himself? The information belongs in the body of the article but not necessarily in the lead. {{tq|"Whose feelings do we think we're protecting?"}} Who said anything about hurting anybody's feelings? You are saying it {{tq|"is a fact"}} and {{tq|"How much confirmation do we need?"}} No one is saying that it didn't take place. Can you tell me why it needs to be in the lead? ] (]) 22:04, 9 June 2018 (UTC) |
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::::Because it's a key salient fact. ] (]) 01:43, 10 June 2018 (UTC) |
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*<s>Lean e</s>'''Exclude''' – The Sunday NYTimes article tomorrow starts on page 1 and continues to two full pages inside. The first mention of suicide is in the third paragraph. (Whether or not that's in the lede depends on the definition of lede used.) The inside has a separate section on the suicide. Obviously, it belongs in the text. ] (]) 22:08, 9 June 2018 (UTC) |
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::Looking into this further, I’m dismayed by some comments. {{tq|his death is still notable and will define him}}. This man lived a fascinating life, providing great contributions over his 61 years. President Obama said of him: “Low plastic stool, cheap but delicious noodles, cold Hanoi beer. This is how I’ll remember Tony. He taught us about food — but more importantly, about its ability to bring us together.” How does his last hour of those 61 years {{tq|define him}}? If he strapped explosives to his chest and killed a dozen people, that would be another matter. But, he quietly ended a difficult existence due to his personal demons. I know it’s OTHERSTUFF, but Hemingway is one of the most famous writers to have committed suicide – indeed a daughter followed this path. But, the suicide is deep down into Hemingway’s article. No, his manner of death does not belong in the lede any more than the unspectacular manners of death of anyone else. We all die. Let us concentrate on the lives in BLPs (and non-BLPs), not the last hour of 61 years. And, this is still a BLP ] (]) 00:41, 10 June 2018 (UTC) |
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:::<applause> Now would you like to back this with actual WP policy and article corroboration? You have not been able to prove your claim beyond personal opinion and editorial belief. "This is how I'll remember Tony" does not make an article at WP. Sorry. If you'd like to light a candle, please do so. But this is an encyclopedia; not a vigil. ] (]) 03:53, 10 June 2018 (UTC) |
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* '''Exclude''' from Lede -- ] wrote<blockquote>his death is still notable and will define him</blockquote>I would say that editors with this kind of take on this BLP article should not be editing this article. Of course it won't define him. This should be covered in the body, but not the Lede. Perhaps in the future if it eclipses the many other aspects of Bourdain's life, it could be mentioned. But there is no need to include it there now. ] and ]. ] (]) 22:19, 9 June 2018 (UTC) |
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::::Please explain how this article is a BLP. ] (]) 01:43, 10 June 2018 (UTC) |
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:::::]. ]] 02:38, 10 June 2018 (UTC) |
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:::::You've been here 14 years and don't know our ] policy? To quote from ] and ]:<blockquote>Editors are also subject to Misplaced Pages:Arbitration Committee/Discretionary sanctions pursuant to WP:NEWBLPBAN, which in May 2014 authorized the application of discretionary sanctions to "any edit in any article with biographical content relating to living '''or recently deceased people''' or any edit relating to the subject (living '''or recently deceased''') of such biographical articles on any page in any namespace." The discretionary sanctions allow administrators to apply topic bans and other measures that may not be reverted without community consensus or the agreement of the enforcing administrator.</blockquote>And<blockquote>or '''people who have recently died''', in which case the policy can extend for an indeterminate period beyond the date of death—six months, one year, two years at the outside. Such extensions would apply '''particularly to contentious''' or questionable material about the dead that has implications for their living relatives and friends, '''such as in the case of a possible suicide''' or a particularly gruesome crime.</blockquote>Ok? ] (]) 02:40, 10 June 2018 (UTC) |
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::You are correct. Since WP is not ], only time will tell. We can only project. We are all projecting at this point; and this is merely ]. That is why I have not touched this article, ]; but thanks for the umbrella statement. Like other personalities, when their lives are summed up in a bio of sorts, the last line usually includes: "He/She committed suicide ... "; since it is not a usual mode of death. Thus the "defining" moniker. Poets (]), Writers (]), Musicians (]), Film Directors (]), Sports Figures (]), Actresses, (]), Fashion Designers (]), Wrestlers (]) ... etc, etc, etc .. - all "celebrities" - all who committed suicide and are listed at WP with this in their lede. Shall I go on? I have an endless list to back this claim. ] (]) 23:34, 9 June 2018 (UTC) |
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:::<small>If you don't have a crystal ball, how do you ''know'' only time will tell? ]] 01:09, 10 June 2018 (UTC)</small> |
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::::<small>I spoke to time. She told me telling would violate omerta.</small> ] (]) 01:25, 10 June 2018 (UTC) |
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::::::Baloney. ] (]) 01:45, 10 June 2018 (UTC) |
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{{od}}You can "small talk"" and cold cut all you want; but WP backs my claim. ] (]) 02:03, 10 June 2018 (UTC) |
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I have commenced a tidy-up of the Bibliography section using cite templates. Capitalization and punctuation follow standard cataloguing rules in AACR2 and RDA, as much as Misplaced Pages templates allow it. ISBNs and other persistent identifiers, where available, are commented out, but still available for reference. This is a work in progress; feel free to continue. Sunwin1960 (talk) 01:08, 4 April 2022 (UTC)
Is there a need to have the cause of death right up below his death and birth dates? It is rare for that to be there, normally death has a section later in the article. It seems to grab the attention massively from the many other things in his life, which seems unfair. 82.2.41.189 (talk) 18:07, 3 July 2024 (UTC)
level-5 vital article is rated B-class on Misplaced Pages's content assessment scale.
