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	Before 5th Century BCE, the planet ''']''' actually had two names, as it was not realized it could alternately appear on one side of the Sun and then the other. Mercury was called Mercury when in the evening sky, but was known as ] when it appeared in the morning. Pythagoras is credited for pointing out that they were one and the same. - ]
			\| dykdate = 18 March 2018 \| dykentry = ... that Greek legends claim ''']''' ''(pictured)'' had a golden thigh, could fly thanks to a magic arrow, was greeted by name by a river, and when bitten by a snake, bit it back and killed it?
	==vegetarian==
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			== Pythagoras and "smoke trapping"? ==
	Well, tennant 22 of the Pythagorean Maxims (as listed in the Phanes Press "Pythagorean Sourcebook and Library") is: "Abstain from eatting animals." So, that's pretty clear.

			In the "Teachings" section, the article states: "Pythagoras and his followers reportedly had a spiritual practice known as 'smoke trapping'. This involved entering an enclosed space, typically a cave, and lighting a fire until noxious fumes filled the room. They would inhale the smoke and would experience vivid hallucinations due to oxygen deprivation and hypercapnia. They supposedly would see divine geometric shapes and patterns which they would copy onto the walls with charcoal to be analyzed at a later point."
	The biography recorded by Diogenes Laertius also makes it clear in section 12 that this follows as part of the Pythagorean beliefs about universal friendship and equality. It is also written there that there is some confusion surrounding a diet book written by Pythagoras encouraging athletes to train while eatting meat instead of the usual athletic diet of dried figs and cheese. This, however, was NOT written by Pythagoras of Samos, but by a different Pythagoras. This might be the source of your confusion. The Pythagoras of Samos was, indeed a very strict vegetarian, and, in fact, encouraged eatting of any "animal foods" in moderation. I hope that helps clear up some of the confusion.
	----
	dude, i think he was a

			This might be a hoax, though an amusing one. The source attached to the claim, Cornford, F. M. (1922). "Mysticism and Science in the Pythagorean Tradition", states nothing of the sort. I haven't come across any descriptions of this "pythagorean" practice in the standard literature on Pythagoras or the Pythagoreans. It is fairly often mentioned that Pythagoras was an occasional cave dweller (Diogenes Laertius, Porphyry, among others), but proof of this "smoke trapping" eludes me. Even somewhat tendentious texts on Pythagoras' hallucinations, e.g., Hillman (2008). The Chemical Muse: Drug Use and the Roots of Western Civilization, do not mention smoke trapping. Herodotus has something of the sort in Histories (IV:74-75), but he is writing about Scythians, hemp seeds, and tents. If this claim is substantiated in respectable scholarship, an appropriate source ought to be added. As it is, following the source attached to this paragraphs leads nowhere. ] (]) 14:13, 29 September 2023 (UTC)

			:I don't have access to the Cornford article, but if you've read it and it doesn't support the information in the paragraph, you're welcome to just delete the paragraph (with an edit summary explaining why). Alternatively, you can insert a {{tl\|Failed verification}} template after the reference. ] (]) 14:37, 29 September 2023 (UTC)
	----
	I don't get what the hell you are talking about... ] 04:06, 4 March 2006 (UTC)

			: Inre the material removed at ], all I can find that seems vaguely related are two passage from ]'s ''Life of Pythagoras'' (a source which substantially consists of mythical nonsense anyway):
	Moved here so that somebody can figure out how to salvage... ] 03:31, 30 Jul 2003 (UTC)
			:: {{tq\|i=yes\|"After walking, they bathed, and then assembled in the place where they eat together, not more than ten eating together. Libations and sacrifices were performed with fumigations and frankincense. Then the supper was eaten and finished before sunset."}}
			:: {{tq\|i=yes\|"He sacrificed to the Gods with millet, cakes and honeycombs and other fumigations. But neither he nor any one of the contemplative philosophers sacrificed animals."}}
			: According to Sumler (2017) {{jstor\|10.2307/arion.25.1.0099}}, there's also an ancient papyrus, "PGM 7.795–845", which contains:
			:: {{tq\|i=yes\|a spell for a dream divination and boasts its lineage from the philosophers Pythagoras and Democritus. For three nights the user must burn frankincense and speak a formula. Before the expected divination, he must burn incense over a laurel branch and go to sleep with it on his head.}}
			::: {{tq\|i=yes\|footnote: Pliny (24.102, 25.5) often cites the works of these two philosophers in his discussion of plants and their psychoactive properties.}}
			: There were certainly ancient Greek rituals, e.g. oracular visions, involving breathing psychoactive fumes. Maybe someone confused ] with Pythagoras. The "smoke trapping" thing, i.e. sitting in a cave next to a wood fire to cause delirium via asphyxia, sounds made up. –] ] 18:19, 28 February 2024 (UTC)

			== Semi-protected edit request on 3 October 2023 ==
	:"Pythagoras proved that music (and everything else) had very much to do with mathematical laws of proportion.
			{{Edit semi-protected\|Pythagoras\|answered=yes}}
	He used his rational knowledge to prove that harmonious melodies are related to mathematical ratios:
			Evidence has revealed Pythagoras's Journal in Rome with a body holding it. ] (])
	He discovered that if you pluck two strings which have the same tension, and then divide one of them exactly in half, the pitch of the shorter string is exactly one octave higher than the longer one. "
			:] '''Not done:''' please provide ] that support the change you want to be made.<!-- Template:ESp --> ]]<sup>]</sup> 22:19, 3 October 2023 (UTC)
			::Wow...I can't even find any UNRELIABLE sources for this "journal in Rome", even among the usual suspects for propagating this kind of junk.--] (]) 16:27, 16 May 2024 (UTC)

			== Annotating the see also list? ==
	:Pythagoras’s followers discovered that different musical modes have different effects on the person who hears them. They claim that Pythagoras once cured a young man by prescribing a certain melody. Still today there are clinics which use therapy accompanied by music.
	But sound waves can have a very negative effect on peoples subconscious as Patrick Flanagan, a modern controversial thinker, states. The human ear can only hear certain frequencies but our subconscious takes in other levels of sound we cannot make out. The same way we can learn while asleep by playing a tape or something.

			Having crashed and burned with my last edit, best I invite comment on this proposal before doing anything in live space.
	:He claims that this discovery is being used very frequently today to subliminally control peoples mind. He claims that a lot of stores like Wal-Mart use it to persuade people to buy products or not to steal. It is most often played with the background music which itself is calm and relaxing. Patrick states that it is used everywhere, from power poles to cell phone antennas. It can make people tired, lazy or the opposite, angry and excited."

			The See also list currently reads
	::´The first part i utterly confused and hard to follow, and that last part sounds more like a ]. I will see if I can write up something serious on musical scales instead... ]
			* ]
			* '']''
			* ] (])
			* ]
			* ]
			* ]
			* ]
			* ]
			* ]
			* ]
			* ]
			* ]

			I would like to expose the ]s of these articles, to give readers a clue as to their content, thus:
	----
	there's something wrong with the greek link to Pythagoras ( Πυθαγόρας ) and i can't seem to fix it. =/

			* {{Annotated link \|Cosmos}}
	:Should be fixed...it actually just pointed to a non-existant article, since the article on el: is at Pythagoras of Samos (or Pythagoras the Samian I guess, Πυθαγόρας ο Σάμιος). ] 02:00, 28 Jun 2004 (UTC)
			* {{Annotated link \|Ex pede Herculem\|''Ex pede Herculem''}}
			* {{Annotated link \|Isopsephy}}
			** {{Annotated link \|gematria}}
			* {{Annotated link \|List of things named after Pythagoras}}
			* {{Annotated link \|Lute of Pythagoras}}
			* {{Annotated link \|Pythagoras tree (fractal)}}
			* {{Annotated link \|Pythagorean comma}}
			* {{Annotated link \|Pythagorean cup}}
			* {{Annotated link \|Pythagorean triple}}
			* {{Annotated link \|Pythagoras (sculptor)}}
			* {{Annotated link \|Sacred geometry}}
			* {{Annotated link \|Baudhāyana sūtras}}

			Any concerns? ] (]) 19:03, 12 October 2023 (UTC)
	----
	On anachronistic links: IMHO the =External Links= section should be open to views that wouldn't be appropriate in the article - otherwise they risk spilling over into the text, especially in a subject like "Pythagoras" that tends to attract cranks. I say we do our best to note the perspective they come from and leave them in even if they're beyond the pale of good scholarship. Getting into an edit war over it isn't worth our time. ] 21:35, 15 Jul 2004 (UTC)
	----
	Shouldn't there be a disambig article somewhere? There are at least 3 Pythagoras: this one, the crater on the moon, and the Greek sculptor. --] 19:13, 6 Apr 2005 (UTC)

			:Don't worry about the previous issue JMF; you acted in ]. As for your proposal, it is justified per ]; i thus support it. Furthermore, ] appears as a piped link in the article's body, while ] appears in a hatnote at the top of the page; they can be removed from the section. ] (]) 01:49, 13 October 2023 (UTC)
	----
	I'd heard, a while ago, that it's speculated that Pythagoras stole some of his works from his students or some others. Anyone got a source for this? I'd like to see it added to the article, whether it's true or false. ] 06:47, 21 May 2005 (UTC)
	:I think it's not so much ''stole'' as much as the group attributing all of their discoveries to their leader, Pythagoras. Either way, it's an interesting point for investigation. ] // ] 18:02, 21 May 2005 (UTC)

			:I dramatically cut down the list, as most of the entries seemed inappropriate, and then made explicit inline annotations for the rest. –] ] 20:20, 28 February 2024 (UTC)
	It is speculated/believed by sone/many historians that Pythagoras never existed (but was rather a mythical father-figure for the Pythagoreans). Certainly the fact that all the "primary sources" listed wrote more than ''five centuries'' after his alleged dates is a bad sign. Shouldn't this be mentioned somewhere? - ] 23:17, 8 August 2005 (UTC)
			::I don't think the ] were inappropriate; they were in line with ]. Furthermore, in your edit summary you wrote that "most of this stuff is not relevant to this article, or else is already mentioned" (]). Though many of these removals were links to tangentially related topics, and also in line with WP:SEEALSO, I suppose keeping just the ] is probably better; in that case, the ] also needs to be removed. Also, one of the ] is comparable to the Pythagorean theorem, and maybe not an ideal inclusion in this particular article. About ] and ], it is probably better to include such links along with relevant content in the article itself. For example, regarding isopsephy, we could add a summary of the following passage from the book ''Alphanumeric Cosmology From Greek into Arabic'' (2020) by Juan Acevedo ({{ORCID\|0000-0002-5330-9672}}):
	: That isn't true at all. Classical scholarship dismisses such speculation. Since the late nineteenth century no serious historian has ever doubted the historicity of Pythagoras. Of course many stories about him are suspect, or obvious fiction, and generations of scholars have made enormous efforts to separate legend and fact, but there is no doubt whatsoever among scholars that he is historical. As for the primary sources, there are explicit statements by Heraclitus, who was a contemporary (and strong critic) of Pythagoras. Those statements are unanimously accepted as authentic by classical scholars, and they are first-class evidence. ] 13:09, 30 December 2005 (UTC)
			::*pp. 42–44: {{tq\|As an adjective, ἰσόψηφος is applied to words in which the values of letters added together make up the same total, like ΝΟΜΟΣ (law) {{=}} ΑΡΙΘΜΟΣ (number) {{=}} 430, ΔΙΟΣ (of Zeus) {{=}} ΘΕΟΣ (deity) {{=}} 284; naturally anagrams will share the same value, like ΚΡΑΤΟΣ (strength) {{=}} ΑΡΚΤΟΣ (a bear) {{=}} 691. A famous example reported by Suetonius (''Nero'' 39, 2) is an indictment of the matricidal emperor,<br>Νέρων ἰδίαν μητέρα ἀπέκτεινε.<br>NERO {{=}} he slew his own mother.<br>where both sides of the equality total 1005.<br>...<br>Such ἰσόψηφα, found in coins, sculptures, paintings and poems are at the basis of ὀνοματομαντεία, a divination through names, or rather a divination of names, whereby concepts are explained through numerical identity. The point, though, is not 'to find a coincidental equivalence between words. It means that there is a direct relationship between these words,' recalling 'the meaning of "symbol" in the ancient world – objects that participated in and made present the person or object they symbolized.' Hippolytus (''Haer''. 4.13) gives a detailed explanation of the procedure used, and he speaks of the practice as a 'Pythagorean reckoning' (Πυθαγορείος ψήφος) heeded by 'those who invent a serious philosophy' δι᾽ ἀριθμῶν καὶ στοιχείων, 'through numbers and letters', who believe they can 'prophesy by means of reckonings and numbers, letters and names' (διὰ ψήφων τε καὶ ἀριθμῶν, στοιχείων τε καὶ ὀνομάτων μαντεύεσθαι – 4.14), and also that they can 'discern life' (τὸ ζῆν διακρίνειν – 4.15). It is remarkable that from the earliest datable mention of this practice in Greek literature (Iamblichus, ''VP'' 18, 147) there is an association with Pythagoras.}}
			::Last, the section didn't repeat links that appear in the article's body; the links that were in fact being repeated in the past, were noted above, and were subsequently removed by JMF (]). ] (]) 17:29, 2 March 2024 (UTC)
			:::'Short descriptions' are generally less appropriate as topical annotations on 'see also' lists than annotations written specifically for the page, because the short descriptions are only specifically intended to be used for disambiguation of links in on-site search results lists, which is a substantially different context that generally doesn't overlap super well with the context of a 'see also' list on a particular article.
			:::I removed the items which were named after Pythagoras much later based on tenuous multi-step links – e.g. the ] fractal which is named that because it involves squares on the three sides of triangles, an idea related to the so-called ], but was invented in the 1940s and is not directly relevant to Pythagoras the person – but left the topics that come from antiquity and are attributed directly to Pythagoras, even though these attributions are apocryphal and probably made up – namely the ] and the '']'' story/phrase. If there are other things directly attributed to Pythagoras that aren't previously mentioned/linked in the article I think those could also go in such a list, but it seems to me that throwing every entry in ] onto this list would be unhelpful.
			:::The see also list didn't make it clear why ] or ] is directly relevant, and the connection is not immediately obvious to me. This would be a place where a descriptive article-specific annotation could make it clearer why someone thinks one of these list entries belongs. If you want to integrate those into the article that also sounds fine, assuming there are serious scholarly sources directly linking them to Pythagoras.
			:::See also lists tend to accumulate lots of cruft as random passers-by throw things onto them based on their own mental associations. We should try to keep these lists trimmed to items where the relationship is pretty direct / that seem likely to directly benefit readers. (Though frankly no 'see also' section at all is also fine for many articles.) –] ] 19:14, 2 March 2024 (UTC)

			== Fast Tracking a Good Article reassessment? ==
	Algebraist, I think you misunderstood the statement that the Pythagorean Theorem wasn't attributed to Pythagoras for five centuries. Even though the Theorem wasn't attributed to him, lots of other things were. As well doubt the existance of Socrates. ] 00:37, 31 December 2005 (UTC)

			Sorry folks, '''I KNOW I am supposed to add new topics at the bottom''', but (a) there are '''very serious problems''' starting in the lead, (b) this article is too important to leave these kind of errors unaddressed and (c) I simply don't have time to '''prioritize improving the article''' before requesting reassessment.
	== BC vs. BCE ==

			I'm hoping to solicit help from previous editors or those with interest and experience making this article more encyclopedic.
	I prefer BC, just because that is what I grew up with. But the official Wiki style sheet requires BCE (B.C.E.???). Comments? ] 19:27, 12 September 2005 (UTC)
	:Actually, the MoS doesn't require BCE. According to ], "Both the BCE/CE era names and the BC/AD era names are acceptable, but be consistent within an article.". Since the article is already written using BC, it probably makes the most sense to leave it as it is. ] // ] 20:34, 12 September 2005 (UTC)

			Among the biggest problems I see in the lead, one un-sourced assertion that stands out is...
	==Surname==

			"..''many of the'' accomplishments credited to him ''likely'' originated earlier or were made by his colleagues or successors. ''Some accounts'' mention that the philosophy associated with Pythagoras was related to mathematics and that numbers were important, but it is debated to what extent, ''if at all'', he actually contributed to mathematics or natural philosophy."
	Hi,

			This kind of 'bold statement' (opinionated summary of various opinions) in the lead needs extraordinary proof referenced immediately following with specific examples. Seemingly everyone agrees (including the experts themselves) that almost everything about his life is mere speculation based on apocryphal legends.
	Is his last name (surname) not known?

			The lead should me MUCH shorter, focus on 'little is actually known' and make sure that controversial references to unproven and unprovable stuff like 'aspects of vegetarianism' ?!?!? are moved elsewhere. Writing style and dialectics are also big problems. Vegetarianism is by definition a binary thing -- either you eat ONLY from the plant kingdom or you don't. We are leading readers to the conclusion that not only was Pythagoras preaching about the ethics of eating animal protein, he was also a hypocrite in choosing the 'aspects' of vegetarianism he liked.
	Thanks, 17:38, 18 September 2005 (UTC)

			I'm going to take a stab at some more-than-minor edits I HOPE will be non-controversial, but well aware that multiple editors here must have shared the PoV's that led to acceptance of the lead as it is.
	:The concept of a surname had not yet been invented. Two people with the same name were identified by their birthplace, thus Plato of Athens and Plato of Smyrna. ] 18:14, 18 September 2005 (UTC)

			As I find it, this article gives WP:UNDUE weight to speculations about the silliest and most controversial of these apocryphal tales and could be summed up with a "He was a whack-job", which segues nicely to...'smoke trapping' ] (]) 15:56, 16 May 2024 (UTC)

			:Well...I just realized the article is protected. I hope someone can help. If it cannot be unprotected, what are the options? I don't want to resort to requesting reassessment, but the recommendation to "prioritize improving" is not available to me. Thoughts? ] (]) 16:16, 16 May 2024 (UTC)
	I know the first surnames were your occupation (such as hunter, etc) but when was that? I thought Pythagoras was his last name, and his first name was just like his birthdate, lost track of?? ] 03:56, 4 March 2006 (UTC)
			:"needs extraordinary proof referenced immediately" – This is an entirely uncontroversial claim, widely accepted among scholars, with nothing particularly "bold" about it. Discussion of this point is well sourced in the relevant section of the article, and doesn't need a footnote parade redundantly pasted into the lead section. –] ] 16:37, 16 May 2024 (UTC)
			:What jacobolus said. ] (]) 15:02, 17 May 2024 (UTC)

			== Semi-protected edit request on 8 June 2024 ==
	== Hypocrite vs. Hippocratic Oath ==

			{{Edit semi-protected\|Pythagoras\|answered=yes}}

			Please add the following item to «MODERN SECONDARY SOURCES» :
	I find it odd that the Hippocratic Oath of the Pythagorean Brotherhood states, "First do no harm"; when Pythagoras himself drowned Hippasus after not wanting to believe that Hippasus's discovery of the square root of 2 is irrational. Even though it was common back then to give credit to a famous teacher of the discoveries of his students, In my opinion, I find his action of murder being hypocritical of his hippocratic oath.
			● WISER, Jean-François (2024) ''Pythagoras' Archives - A Sum of Pythagoreanism'' / ISBN-13 : 978-2322525287 ] (]) 20:55, 8 June 2024 (UTC)

			:'''Comment''': This is apparently a self-published book. It's not cited in the article, so it doesn't belong under "Modern secondary sources" in the "References" section. I doubt that it would be suitable even in the "Further reading" section. ] (]) 21:38, 8 June 2024 (UTC)
	Kelly C. Grube 10/20/05
			:This seems like a self-published book by an amateur without professional experience in the subject? –] ] 21:44, 8 June 2024 (UTC)

			:] '''Not done:'''<!-- Template:ESp --> Not a reliable source per above. <span style="font-family:monospace;">'''<nowiki>''']<nowiki>]]'''</nowiki>'''</span> (] • ]) 00:26, 9 June 2024 (UTC)
	:This story is almost certainly a myth. ] 19:20, 2 November 2005 (UTC)
			::This is indeed a «self-published book» written by an «amateur». But «professionals» certainly don't have the privilege of knowledge. Wouldn't you read a bit of it (see AMAZON or GOOGLE BOOKS samples) before dismissing ? Thank you. J-F.WISER ] (]) 11:58, 9 June 2024 (UTC)

			:::See ] ] (]) 13:31, 9 June 2024 (UTC)

			:::Very occasionally self-published books by amateurs can be used as sources in Misplaced Pages, but generally that only happens when the work is widely cited by experts in the field, which doesn't happen immediately after publication.
	:That incident happened long after Pythagoras was dead (if he even existed) and the real MYTH (important keyword there) states it was his followers. Professor Patrick Norton, University of West Ireland 11:09, 6 February 2006.
			:::Absent strong countervailing evidence, self-published works are not considered to be "reliable sources" by Misplaced Pages. This policy is not intended to reflect on the merits of any particular work; it just simplifies the messy process of managing an encyclopedia written by pseudonymous volunteer editors. –] ] 14:59, 9 June 2024 (UTC)

	== the earth a globe ==

	I'd like to see a reference for the claim that Pythagoras was the first person to discover that the earth is a globe. ] 19:20, 2 November 2005 (UTC)

	Really? I though that Columbus (or is it Columbi?)guy discovered the Earth is a globe? 13:38 4 March 2006

	http://scienceworld.wolfram.com/biography/Pythagoras.html It sites three sources, I'll leave it to you to dig through those three to find the exact reference. Also, Eratosthenes is generally credited with being the first to calculate the circumference of the earth (276BC-194BC), so I think its fair to say there were a number of people to believe the Earth was a globe. ] neither proved, nor discovered it, and actually believe it to be 1/3 its current size. The first person to circumnavigate the Earth generally goes to ] who never did it in a single trip, but did visit the ] coming from both directions. I suppose you could say he was the first person to prove that the earth was round.

	== Scientific contributions ==

	The section on Scientific contributions contains a number of doubtful claims. For example, if the Egyptians were more advanced mathematically than the Greeks of the 6th century BCE, none of that writing survives. There is much more written Mesopotamean mathematics than there is Egyptian. The only Egyptian reference to the Pythagorean theorem is a single mathematical problem the answer to which is a 3, 4, 5 triangle. Also, the references to mathematics in China is controversial -- usually dated from the Han dynasty but claimed by some to be much older. This controversy is interesting, but does not belong here.

	With some trepedation, I am going to attempt a rewrite, attempting to focus on what is known about the Pytahgoreans rather than on claims of prior knowledge of the theorem by other cultures, which is discussed extensively in the article ]. ] 01:12, 6 November 2005 (UTC)


	==Vegetarian==
	The fact he's considered one of the world's first famous vegetarians, should probably get at least a mention in the article ] 12:33, 27 November 2005 (UTC)

	Actually he was anti-vegetarian; he considered the avoidance of meat to be a taboo. The guy probably misunderstood. I don't know why people are still getting this wrong. I've come across this on numerous sources; it's not like it's new info. I remember doing a paper on this about 10 years ago in HS and even my teacher got it wrong until I pointed the wording out to her. The "Pythagoreans" was a reference to people who attended the school Pythagoras had, dealing with philosophy and religion and such. He got a lot of sh*t, because a lot of the leaders didn't have any idea what he was talking about and he was very selective (you had to already "get it," in other words), so there was obviously a lot of propaganda put out to make him into some sort of a cult leader (Rome and Brittain??); there's also significant evidence he knew magi and druids at some point of his life.. -Anonymous

	>Anonymous, can you give some references to this? I'm inclined to believe you, I should say. This I do because Milo (the wrestler), one of the most famous first-generation Pythagoreans, was famous for eating enourmous quantities of meat. -August

	== Playing with the dates. ==

	If no-one is sure of Pythagoras's (?) birthdate & deathdate, isn't there a grave stone some one can go and check somewhere? On another subject though, it sounds like Pythagoras was a bit of a madman to me. All those things this website says about those people who lived at his school... That really doesn't sound at all normal if you ask me. Does anyone know if he had mental issues?
	-- 4 March 2006

	People are having some fun playing with the dates. The fact is that very little is known with any certainty about Pythagoras, and his dates are a matter of which source you read. Also, there are people who amuse themselves by changing BCE to BC and other people who amuse themselves changing BC back to BCE. Like Earth itself, this is mostly harmless. ] 13:13, 5 December 2005 (UTC)
	:I don't know (or, frankly, care) exactly when Pythagoras was born and when he died, or which dates the article should give. I do think it's important that if the dates given in the first line are changed, the categories should also be changed to reflect this.
	:If we can't state dates with any certainty, this should also be reflected in the first line. ] 13:33, 5 December 2005 (UTC)
	I agree. ] 13:37, 5 December 2005 (UTC)

	I'm confused as to what BC is, and what BCE is? What's the difference? I heard somewhere it was the same timezone, they were just changing it because now it's even longer ago than it was afew years ago....? - 13:43, 4 March 2006] 03:44, 4 March 2006 (UTC)

	: B.C.E. is the secular-humanist way of referring to B.C. The usage of Before Christ and Anno Domine is Christian, and so B.C.E. and C.E. are used as substitutes. B.C.E. means "Before Common Era" and C.E. means "Common Era". ] 02:54, 16 March 2006 (UTC)

	== Pythagoreanims ==

	I've fixed some of the mistakes in the recent large addition on Pythagoreanism. I found it interesting reading, but wonder whether a lot of it does not belong in the article ] rather than here. ] 21:26, 2 February 2006 (UTC)

	== Dates ==

	I know that Pythagoras lived from 582 BC to 507 BC.It said so in Webster's dictionary.

	:I trust you are being facetious but just in case you are not -- Pythagoras lived so long ago that the exact dates of his birth and death are uncertain, as are many facts about his life. ] 00:13, 11 February 2006 (UTC)

	== Places ==

	Does anyone here know WHERE Pythagoras died? - ] 04:04, 4 March 2006 (UTC)
	Does anyone know when he was born?

	== doubtful claims ==

	I've removed some doubtful claims from the article. I followed the link that was given in support of these claims, and found material that is not NPOV, of which the following sentence is an example, "The great and compassionate heart of Pythagoras ached with helpless pity for those weak souls who had strayed from the Path." ] 19:46, 14 March 2006 (UTC)

	== Image ==

	What about an image of Pythagoras?-]

	:Of course, nobody knows what Pythagoras looked like, but we already have two images. I've moved one higher up in the article. I wouldn't mind seeing another image in the "scientific" section -- maybe something illustrating the Music of the Spheres. ] 13:42, 24 March 2006 (UTC)

	== Can't blow bubbles in a pond? ==

	I'm going to delete this unless someone can confirm it. ] 22:11, 8 April 2006 (UTC)

	== Croton Crotona ==

	Greek names are inflected, that is, the spelling changes depending on where the name appears in a sentence. The most famous example of this is the Greek god Deus, whose name becomes Zeus in the (I think) objective case. When transliterated into English, various endings have become standard, for example, Mark rather than Marcus. Other names, such as Hero/Heron, have never been standardized. ] 14:04, 14 April 2006 (UTC)

	== Some questions ==

	hi ,
	I have some questions and need your help !

	1.Actually , what was Pythagoras interested in ? Is it philosophy , music , religious or mathematics ? as the article said " Pythagoras and his students believed that everything was related to mathematics and thought that everything could be predicted and measured in rhythmic patterns or cycles.", he was likely not interested in religious , but he is a great philosopher and founder of the mysterious religious

	2. Did people in Pythagoras’s time notice the special relationship between the sides of a right- angled triangle?

	3.Why was Pythagoras recognized for the theorem though it had been used before him?

	Thanks

	:1) Pythagoras thought of himself as a philosopher and was interested in demonstrable truth. In terms of religion, what he is known for are things that would be associated with the god Apollo, that is, music, healing, wisdom and opposition to political corruption. His studies included geometry and astronomy but he also devoted his time to politics and assisting in the conduct of wars in his time. 2) Pythagoras supposedly celebrated his discovery of the theorem. He probably came up with an argument proving it from simpler facts and is likely to have shared this information with other mathematicians at this time in a gathering of some sort. Pythagoras existed at a time when there was no publishing industry and knowledge was passed on orally from one generation to the next. He was primarily concerned with the pursuit and spread of knowledge and education in the Greek world and in the process exposing them to ideas from the eastern Mediterranean. 3) The reason that he might have gotten credit for the theorem is that he was seen as a source of wisdom beyond that normally encountered and of a higher realm. He is supposed to have advised the people of his time to build institutions devoted to the Muses and his interest in increasing respect for knowledge may have led him to imitate the organization of the priesthood in Egypt and borrow from other religions. --] 10:56, 11 June 2006 (UTC)

	== influence on Plato ==

	just added paragraph on pythagoras influence on plato- feel free to change/adapt/remove according to your opinion--] 20:20, 15 May 2006 (UTC)

	==The name Pythagoras==

	According to ], because of his "moral teachings, Pythagoras deserved no longer to be called by his patronymic..." which leads one to wonder if "Pythagoras" was a nick name or an honorific of some sort. The oracle of Apollo at Delphi was named Pythia and the greek word for "market place" was "agora", so would the moniker "Pythagoras" refer to an "oracle of the market place"? The reference in Iamblichus ends "...but that all men should call him divine." --] 07:47, 10 June 2006 (UTC)

	==Cylon==

	There is more that one version of the death of Pythagoras and one also wonders about whether or not there was a Cylon. There is a Greek word χυλοσ which translates as pap or chyle and which suggests something not worth keeping. But with Pythagoras' strict discipline there may be some truth to the story.--] 07:56, 10 June 2006 (UTC)

	== Acousmatikoi and Mathematikoi ==

	Hello,
	The article on Pythagorans, in the part about the Pythagoreans states that: "The akousmatikoi recognized the mathematikoi as real Pythagoreans, but not vice versa."
	It is actually the other way around. Here is the relevant qoute from Iamblichus (translated by Kirk, Raven and Schofield)

	"There are two varieties of the Italian philosophy which is called Pythagorean. For those who practised it were also of two sorts, the acusmatici and the mathematici. Of these the acusmatici were accepted as Pythagoreans by the other patry but they did not allow that the mathematici were Pythagoreans, holding that their intellectual pursuits derived not from Pythagorans but from Hippasus."

	G.S. Kirk, J.E. Raven, M. Schofield, 'The Presocratic Philosophers', Cambridge University Press, Cambridge, 1983 (2nd edition, p. 234.

	Cheers.

	this seems interesting- maybe the phrase in the article should be reformulated.--] 11:56, 4 July 2006 (UTC)

	==Inconsistencies==

	The birth and death dates in the article text don't match the corresponding categories. ] 17:49, 3 October 2006 (UTC)

	== ] ==

	I've started an approach that may apply to Misplaced Pages's Core Biography articles: creating a branching list page based on ''in popular culture'' information. I started that last year while I raised ] to ] when I created ], which has become a ]. Recently I also created ] out of material that had been deleted from the biography article. Since cultural references sometimes get deleted without discussion, I'd like to suggest this approach as a model for the editors here. Regards, ''']''' 16:36, 18 October 2006 (UTC)

	== Pythagorians ==
	I was tempted to mark the whole article as lacking references while I was reading the pythagorians section. It seems to be written in from a personal perspective (see ]), e.g. it is interspersed with "seems like". Furthermore it lacks references. --] <sup>]</sup>/<sub>] </sub> 23:51, 18 October 2006 (UTC)
	Could you be more specific about what you do not like about the Pythagoreans section.
	] \| ] 21:09:51 October 30, 2006 (UTC)

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Pythagoras and "smoke trapping"?

In the "Teachings" section, the article states: "Pythagoras and his followers reportedly had a spiritual practice known as 'smoke trapping'. This involved entering an enclosed space, typically a cave, and lighting a fire until noxious fumes filled the room. They would inhale the smoke and would experience vivid hallucinations due to oxygen deprivation and hypercapnia. They supposedly would see divine geometric shapes and patterns which they would copy onto the walls with charcoal to be analyzed at a later point."

This might be a hoax, though an amusing one. The source attached to the claim, Cornford, F. M. (1922). "Mysticism and Science in the Pythagorean Tradition", states nothing of the sort. I haven't come across any descriptions of this "pythagorean" practice in the standard literature on Pythagoras or the Pythagoreans. It is fairly often mentioned that Pythagoras was an occasional cave dweller (Diogenes Laertius, Porphyry, among others), but proof of this "smoke trapping" eludes me. Even somewhat tendentious texts on Pythagoras' hallucinations, e.g., Hillman (2008). The Chemical Muse: Drug Use and the Roots of Western Civilization, do not mention smoke trapping. Herodotus has something of the sort in Histories (IV:74-75), but he is writing about Scythians, hemp seeds, and tents. If this claim is substantiated in respectable scholarship, an appropriate source ought to be added. As it is, following the source attached to this paragraphs leads nowhere. Lasseromer (talk) 14:13, 29 September 2023 (UTC)

I don't have access to the Cornford article, but if you've read it and it doesn't support the information in the paragraph, you're welcome to just delete the paragraph (with an edit summary explaining why). Alternatively, you can insert a {{Failed verification}} template after the reference. Deor (talk) 14:37, 29 September 2023 (UTC)

Inre the material removed at special:diff/1210767847, all I can find that seems vaguely related are two passage from Iamblichus's Life of Pythagoras (a source which substantially consists of mythical nonsense anyway):

"After walking, they bathed, and then assembled in the place where they eat together, not more than ten eating together. Libations and sacrifices were performed with fumigations and frankincense. Then the supper was eaten and finished before sunset."

"He sacrificed to the Gods with millet, cakes and honeycombs and other fumigations. But neither he nor any one of the contemplative philosophers sacrificed animals."

According to Sumler (2017) JSTOR 10.2307/arion.25.1.0099, there's also an ancient papyrus, "PGM 7.795–845", which contains:

a spell for a dream divination and boasts its lineage from the philosophers Pythagoras and Democritus. For three nights the user must burn frankincense and speak a formula. Before the expected divination, he must burn incense over a laurel branch and go to sleep with it on his head.

footnote: Pliny (24.102, 25.5) often cites the works of these two philosophers in his discussion of plants and their psychoactive properties.

There were certainly ancient Greek rituals, e.g. oracular visions, involving breathing psychoactive fumes. Maybe someone confused Pythia with Pythagoras. The "smoke trapping" thing, i.e. sitting in a cave next to a wood fire to cause delirium via asphyxia, sounds made up. –jacobolus (t) 18:19, 28 February 2024 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 3 October 2023

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Evidence has revealed Pythagoras's Journal in Rome with a body holding it. 204.8.62.75 (talk)

Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. House Blaster 22:19, 3 October 2023 (UTC)

Wow...I can't even find any UNRELIABLE sources for this "journal in Rome", even among the usual suspects for propagating this kind of junk.--ElectroNautical (talk) 16:27, 16 May 2024 (UTC)

Annotating the see also list?

Having crashed and burned with my last edit, best I invite comment on this proposal before doing anything in live space.

The See also list currently reads

I would like to expose the wp:short descriptions of these articles, to give readers a clue as to their content, thus:

Cosmos – Universe as a complex and orderly system or entity
Ex pede Herculem – A maxim of proportionality
Isopsephy – Numerological connection between words whose letters' number values have equal sums
- gematria – Numerological practice of reading a word or phrase as a number
List of things named after Pythagoras
Lute of Pythagoras – Self-similar geometric figure
Pythagoras tree (fractal) – A plane fractal constructed from squares
Pythagorean comma – Small interval between musical notes
Pythagorean cup – Cup with a central siphon drain
Pythagorean triple – Integer side lengths of a right triangle
Pythagoras (sculptor) – Ancient Greek sculptor of Samos/Rhegion
Sacred geometry – Symbolic and sacred meanings ascibed to certain geometric shapes
Baudhāyana sūtras – Group of Vedic Sanskrit textsPages displaying short descriptions of redirect targets

Any concerns? 𝕁𝕄𝔽 (talk) 19:03, 12 October 2023 (UTC)

Don't worry about the previous issue JMF; you acted in good faith. As for your proposal, it is justified per MOS:SEEALSO; i thus support it. Furthermore, sacred geometry appears as a piped link in the article's body, while Pythagoras (sculptor) appears in a hatnote at the top of the page; they can be removed from the section. Demetrios1993 (talk) 01:49, 13 October 2023 (UTC)

I dramatically cut down the list, as most of the entries seemed inappropriate, and then made explicit inline annotations for the rest. –jacobolus (t) 20:20, 28 February 2024 (UTC)

I don't think the annotated links were inappropriate; they were in line with MOS:SEEALSO. Furthermore, in your edit summary you wrote that "most of this stuff is not relevant to this article, or else is already mentioned" (diff). Though many of these removals were links to tangentially related topics, and also in line with WP:SEEALSO, I suppose keeping just the list of things named after Pythagoras is probably better; in that case, the Pythagorean cup also needs to be removed. Also, one of the Baudhayana sutras is comparable to the Pythagorean theorem, and maybe not an ideal inclusion in this particular article. About Isopsephy and Sacred geometry, it is probably better to include such links along with relevant content in the article itself. For example, regarding isopsephy, we could add a summary of the following passage from the book Alphanumeric Cosmology From Greek into Arabic (2020) by Juan Acevedo (ORCID 0000-0002-5330-9672):

pp. 42–44: As an adjective, ἰσόψηφος is applied to words in which the values of letters added together make up the same total, like ΝΟΜΟΣ (law) = ΑΡΙΘΜΟΣ (number) = 430, ΔΙΟΣ (of Zeus) = ΘΕΟΣ (deity) = 284; naturally anagrams will share the same value, like ΚΡΑΤΟΣ (strength) = ΑΡΚΤΟΣ (a bear) = 691. A famous example reported by Suetonius (Nero 39, 2) is an indictment of the matricidal emperor,
Νέρων ἰδίαν μητέρα ἀπέκτεινε.
NERO = he slew his own mother.
where both sides of the equality total 1005.
...
Such ἰσόψηφα, found in coins, sculptures, paintings and poems are at the basis of ὀνοματομαντεία, a divination through names, or rather a divination of names, whereby concepts are explained through numerical identity. The point, though, is not 'to find a coincidental equivalence between words. It means that there is a direct relationship between these words,' recalling 'the meaning of "symbol" in the ancient world – objects that participated in and made present the person or object they symbolized.' Hippolytus (Haer. 4.13) gives a detailed explanation of the procedure used, and he speaks of the practice as a 'Pythagorean reckoning' (Πυθαγορείος ψήφος) heeded by 'those who invent a serious philosophy' δι᾽ ἀριθμῶν καὶ στοιχείων, 'through numbers and letters', who believe they can 'prophesy by means of reckonings and numbers, letters and names' (διὰ ψήφων τε καὶ ἀριθμῶν, στοιχείων τε καὶ ὀνομάτων μαντεύεσθαι – 4.14), and also that they can 'discern life' (τὸ ζῆν διακρίνειν – 4.15). It is remarkable that from the earliest datable mention of this practice in Greek literature (Iamblichus, VP 18, 147) there is an association with Pythagoras.

Last, the section didn't repeat links that appear in the article's body; the links that were in fact being repeated in the past, were noted above, and were subsequently removed by JMF (diff). Demetrios1993 (talk) 17:29, 2 March 2024 (UTC)

'Short descriptions' are generally less appropriate as topical annotations on 'see also' lists than annotations written specifically for the page, because the short descriptions are only specifically intended to be used for disambiguation of links in on-site search results lists, which is a substantially different context that generally doesn't overlap super well with the context of a 'see also' list on a particular article.

I removed the items which were named after Pythagoras much later based on tenuous multi-step links – e.g. the Pythagoras tree fractal which is named that because it involves squares on the three sides of triangles, an idea related to the so-called Pythagorean theorem, but was invented in the 1940s and is not directly relevant to Pythagoras the person – but left the topics that come from antiquity and are attributed directly to Pythagoras, even though these attributions are apocryphal and probably made up – namely the Pythagorean cup and the Ex pede Herculem story/phrase. If there are other things directly attributed to Pythagoras that aren't previously mentioned/linked in the article I think those could also go in such a list, but it seems to me that throwing every entry in List of things named after Pythagoras onto this list would be unhelpful.

The see also list didn't make it clear why Isopsephy or Sacred geometry is directly relevant, and the connection is not immediately obvious to me. This would be a place where a descriptive article-specific annotation could make it clearer why someone thinks one of these list entries belongs. If you want to integrate those into the article that also sounds fine, assuming there are serious scholarly sources directly linking them to Pythagoras.

See also lists tend to accumulate lots of cruft as random passers-by throw things onto them based on their own mental associations. We should try to keep these lists trimmed to items where the relationship is pretty direct / that seem likely to directly benefit readers. (Though frankly no 'see also' section at all is also fine for many articles.) –jacobolus (t) 19:14, 2 March 2024 (UTC)

Fast Tracking a Good Article reassessment?

Sorry folks, I KNOW I am supposed to add new topics at the bottom, but (a) there are very serious problems starting in the lead, (b) this article is too important to leave these kind of errors unaddressed and (c) I simply don't have time to prioritize improving the article before requesting reassessment.

I'm hoping to solicit help from previous editors or those with interest and experience making this article more encyclopedic.

Among the biggest problems I see in the lead, one un-sourced assertion that stands out is...

"..many of the accomplishments credited to him likely originated earlier or were made by his colleagues or successors. Some accounts mention that the philosophy associated with Pythagoras was related to mathematics and that numbers were important, but it is debated to what extent, if at all, he actually contributed to mathematics or natural philosophy."

This kind of 'bold statement' (opinionated summary of various opinions) in the lead needs extraordinary proof referenced immediately following with specific examples. Seemingly everyone agrees (including the experts themselves) that almost everything about his life is mere speculation based on apocryphal legends.

The lead should me MUCH shorter, focus on 'little is actually known' and make sure that controversial references to unproven and unprovable stuff like 'aspects of vegetarianism' ?!?!? are moved elsewhere. Writing style and dialectics are also big problems. Vegetarianism is by definition a binary thing -- either you eat ONLY from the plant kingdom or you don't. We are leading readers to the conclusion that not only was Pythagoras preaching about the ethics of eating animal protein, he was also a hypocrite in choosing the 'aspects' of vegetarianism he liked.

I'm going to take a stab at some more-than-minor edits I HOPE will be non-controversial, but well aware that multiple editors here must have shared the PoV's that led to acceptance of the lead as it is.

As I find it, this article gives WP:UNDUE weight to speculations about the silliest and most controversial of these apocryphal tales and could be summed up with a "He was a whack-job", which segues nicely to...'smoke trapping' ElectroNautical (talk) 15:56, 16 May 2024 (UTC)

Well...I just realized the article is protected. I hope someone can help. If it cannot be unprotected, what are the options? I don't want to resort to requesting reassessment, but the recommendation to "prioritize improving" is not available to me. Thoughts? ElectroNautical (talk) 16:16, 16 May 2024 (UTC)

"needs extraordinary proof referenced immediately" – This is an entirely uncontroversial claim, widely accepted among scholars, with nothing particularly "bold" about it. Discussion of this point is well sourced in the relevant section of the article, and doesn't need a footnote parade redundantly pasted into the lead section. –jacobolus (t) 16:37, 16 May 2024 (UTC)

What jacobolus said. XOR'easter (talk) 15:02, 17 May 2024 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 8 June 2024

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Please add the following item to «MODERN SECONDARY SOURCES» : ● WISER, Jean-François (2024) Pythagoras' Archives - A Sum of Pythagoreanism / ISBN-13 : 978-2322525287 PYTHAGORE46 (talk) 20:55, 8 June 2024 (UTC)

Comment: This is apparently a self-published book. It's not cited in the article, so it doesn't belong under "Modern secondary sources" in the "References" section. I doubt that it would be suitable even in the "Further reading" section. Deor (talk) 21:38, 8 June 2024 (UTC)

This seems like a self-published book by an amateur without professional experience in the subject? –jacobolus (t) 21:44, 8 June 2024 (UTC)

Not done: Not a reliable source per above. ''']''' (talk • contribs) 00:26, 9 June 2024 (UTC)

This is indeed a «self-published book» written by an «amateur». But «professionals» certainly don't have the privilege of knowledge. Wouldn't you read a bit of it (see AMAZON or GOOGLE BOOKS samples) before dismissing ? Thank you. J-F.WISER PYTHAGORE46 (talk) 11:58, 9 June 2024 (UTC)

See WP:reliable source 𝕁𝕄𝔽 (talk) 13:31, 9 June 2024 (UTC)

Very occasionally self-published books by amateurs can be used as sources in Misplaced Pages, but generally that only happens when the work is widely cited by experts in the field, which doesn't happen immediately after publication.

Absent strong countervailing evidence, self-published works are not considered to be "reliable sources" by Misplaced Pages. This policy is not intended to reflect on the merits of any particular work; it just simplifies the messy process of managing an encyclopedia written by pseudonymous volunteer editors. –jacobolus (t) 14:59, 9 June 2024 (UTC)

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