Talk:Ron Dellums: Difference between revisions

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	== 2.2.5 "Opposition to integration of gays in the military" ==

	That entire paragraph needs proper citation. Another editor weighed in on this topic by reverting the paragraph. I'm inclined to keep it out of the article also until it can be properly sourced from the Congressional Record, or any other sources, particularly the part about Dellums opposing defense appropriations "on economic principles." This is no place for ]. Please weigh in on this, I'd like to hear from other editors on this issue. ] 06:17, 20 August 2010 (UTC)

	I see that few seem to have been particularly interested in this (the above author posted nearly four years ago), but this passage also caught my eye. Not only is the sourcing lackluster, but I think the title is misleading, for it suggests at a casual glance that Dellums was opposed to integration. ] (]) 01:52, 14 January 2014 (UTC)

	== Primary sourcing, UNDUE, POV, SYNTH ==

	I undid for the following reasons
	* "Far Left" - The article on the ] calls them left, not far left, while the ] were describes them as black nationalist and socialist; these are centre-left, not far left. (Maoist, for example, are far left). Seems like POV pushing to label these groups as "far left".
	** Supported by these groups - two primary sources, from 1968 and 1970 - are used to support the statement that support for Dellums came from these groups. Using two primary sources from 45 and 47 years ago to draw conclusions seems like ]
	** Focussing on support from two groups, without a proper analysis of ''where'' Dellums support came from in a broader context, raises concerns about ]
	** "Often referred to as a political radical" - again, it's inappropriate to draw from 45-47-year-old primary sources.
	* Nicaragua - again, a statement without context, drawn from a 35-year-old primary source, raises questions of UNDUE.
	We can't have editors delving into ancient primary sources to cherry-pick bits of information or draw novel conclusions. ] (]) 04:52, 25 February 2015 (UTC)

	And uses an SPS to make disparaging statements about a ], which is not acceptable per policy. And it looks like there's existing information sourced to David Horowitz's "FrontPage Mag", which is not considered a reliable source for news, far less for a BLP (per extensive discussion in the archives on ]. ] (]) 05:04, 25 February 2015 (UTC)

	*It was not cherry picking that the primary sources are not "ancient." These two bogus criticisms are evidence of ]
	*The sources used were standard accepted sources, among them the New York Times.
	*Because a source is 45 to 47 years old does not make it false. In fact it is very appropriate considering that they are contemporary sources.
	*Calling the Black Panthers "centre-left" is laughable. The group is even listed as Far-Left in the article on ]. And John F. Kennedy historian Arthur M. Schlessinger in "The Imperial Presidency" (p. 258) referred to the Peace and Freedom Party as Far-Left. Both groups are connected to the ], a Marxist-Leninist group. It is you who is pushing POV.
	*The two assertions about ] are fallacious. The sources used are all ] and the assertions appeals to novelty, a logical fallacy.
	*As for the message regarding living people, said articles should have both positive and negative information as long as they are supported by the facts, otherwise they will not have a neutral POV.] (]) 05:31, 25 February 2015 (UTC)

	*Additionally, you incorrectly removed an item as SPS, but if you had looked at the source it had a pdf of the actual letter. The letter can be seen on the cited page, therefore it does not constitute SPS.] (]) 05:45, 25 February 2015 (UTC)

	I did not add information from FrontPage Mag. That was another user. You need to check your facts before making accusations.] (]) 05:33, 25 February 2015 (UTC)

	Based on the above, I undid your revisions and removed the citation from FrontPage Mag that was introduced by another user/editor as SPS.] (]) 05:53, 25 February 2015 (UTC)

	:''The letter can be seen on the cited page, therefore it does not constitute SPS'' - Please don't make as transparently false a claim as this. ] (]) 06:02, 25 February 2015 (UTC)

	# Articles need to be based on high-quality secondary and tertiary sources. Especially controversial material about living people. When you pick two sources from almost half a century ago, you're cherry picking. Why? Because you aren't representing the full spectrum of primary source material. Of course, we ''can't'' fairly represent half a century of primary sources. Which is why we use secondary and tertiary sources.
	# Yes, some of these are reliable sources. I never said otherwise.
	# Quite honestly, I know nothing the Peace and Freedom party (PFP). So sure, if you provide a source that says that they are Maoist or Marxist in their ideology, I'll believe you. But saying that they were ''linked'' to the Workers World Party is just the typical sort of claim that people make who are trying to invent reasons to invent connections. You know, like the people who have to label groups as Far Left. In the book "Maoism in the Developed World" it says that "a diversity of far left groups" operated in the PFP. The book "The Negro in Third Party Politics" says the same thing. The book "Presidential Election" refers to it as a "far left group." In the book, "Tom Bradley's Campaign for Governor" it calls the PFP "the flagship of the far left." Is this a sufficient amount of secondary sources from respected authors and presses that call it Far Left? As for the Wiki article, it's wrong.
	# Please read ]. It's entirely orthogonal to ].
	# And no, ] does not permit unsourced or poorly-sourced negative material. Even when it's true. That's just policy. ] (]) 06:13, 25 February 2015 (UTC)

	:A. Voting information is of necessity going to have to come from that time period. Moreover, the sources constituted reliable mainstream news sources. That is not cherry-picking. Additional sourcing can be added, but it will not change the factual information that was included. For the information on Ron Dellums' secretary, this is also cited by Guenter Lewy in "The Cause that Failed" (Oxford University Press) on p. 223. Another source is "The Grenada Documents" (Sherwood Press) which transcribed the documents. But again, seeing the original document itself is best, which is on the blog.
	:B. Maoism and Marxism are not the only examples of the Far Left. In fact, however, the ] was Marxist and around the time the subject ran for office, ], a leader in the BPP ran for President on the Peace and Freedom Party. This is noted on his Wiki page. If you read the Wiki page for the BPP you will see it is designated as Far-Left. Providing the link to the WWP was just to provide an example as I did not think it necessary to provide multiple sources, but if that is what is needed to end this, I will.
	:C. "Orthogonal" is a technical term with different meanings depending on the context. Do you mean tangential?
	:D. Nothing I provided was unsourced or poorly-sourced.] (]) 06:45, 25 February 2015 (UTC)

	== External links modified ==		== External links modified ==
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	Cheers.—] <span style="color:green;font-family:Rockwell">(])</span> 06:57, 14 December 2017 (UTC)		Cheers.—] <span style="color:green;font-family:Rockwell">(])</span> 06:57, 14 December 2017 (UTC)

			== Oscar Grant III ==
			]
			Per the revert of an edit made at 08:18, 11 May 2020: it seems to me this was a significant enough event during his mayoralty to warrant mentioning. Dellums . Am I not following any Wiki editing guidelines that led you to make your edit, or are you challenging based on it's relevance to Dellums? Asking earnestly - I'm a relatively new editor. --] (]) 08:49, 11 May 2020 (UTC)
			:This is something that happened on BART property, from the actions of the BART Police and a BART Police officer. The only connection I can see to Ron Dellums and the government of the City of Oakland is that the BART station is within the city limits of Oakland. That's it.
			:Did you have anything that suggests any other connection? Because you've certainly made none. --] \| ] 09:37, 11 May 2020 (UTC)
			::How would this sound? Seeking out your help! --] (]) 09:15, 26 May 2020 (UTC)
			:::Oscar Grant III was a 22-year-old African-American man who was fatally shot in the early morning hours of New Year's Day 2009 by BART Police Officer Johannes Mehserle, during the third year of Dellums' term. Responding to reports of a fight on a crowded BART train returning from San Francisco, BART Police officers detained Grant and several other passengers on the platform at the Fruitvale BART Station. While Grant was held down in a prone position, Mehserle drew his pistol and shot him in the back. Grant was rushed to Highland Hospital in Oakland and pronounced dead later that day. Dellums' response to the event has been criticized by local ] media outlet the '']''<ref>{{cite web \|last1=Kambon \|first1=Malaika \|title=Centuries of rage: The murder of Oscar Grant III \|url=https://sfbayview.com/2015/02/centuries-of-rage-the-murder-of-oscar-grant-iii/ \|website=San Francisco Bay View \|publisher=San Francisco Bay View National Black Newspaper \|accessdate=26 May 2020}}</ref>. The events were captured on multiple official and private digital video and privately owned cell phone cameras, and owners disseminated their footage to media outlets of all stripes, and to various websites where it went viral. Both peaceful and violent protests took place in the following days. Dellums professed support for these demonstrations<ref>{{cite web \|title=Ron Dellums Speaks About Oscar Grant \|url=https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IiDJbd2L_6k \|website=YouTube \|accessdate=26 May 2020}}</ref>. The film '']'' dramatizes these events.
			{{talkref}}
			:Reading this, I couldn't tell anyone what Dellum's response was, nor why it was criticized by one particular newspaper. The cite for "Dellums' response has been criticized" doesn't mention Dellums at all in the body of the article; rather, the caption for a photograph of a demonstrator asserts Dellums "refused...to confront the issue". This proposed edit also suggests (probably clumsily) that Dellums professed support for violent protests. I'd like to see much less biased sourcing for the event and a non-YouTube source for Dellums comments about the event. ]<sup><small>]</small></sup> 15:06, 26 May 2020 (UTC)

Latest revision as of 21:30, 16 November 2024

Ron Dellums was a Social sciences and society good articles nominee, but did not meet the good article criteria at the time. There may be suggestions below for improving the article. Once these issues have been addressed, the article can be renominated. Editors may also seek a reassessment of the decision if they believe there was a mistake.

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August 16, 2006	Good article nominee	Not listed

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Oscar Grant III

User:Calton Per the revert of an edit made at 08:18, 11 May 2020: it seems to me this was a significant enough event during his mayoralty to warrant mentioning. Dellums called for a federal inquiry on the shooting. Am I not following any Wiki editing guidelines that led you to make your edit, or are you challenging based on it's relevance to Dellums? Asking earnestly - I'm a relatively new editor. --47.144.151.55 (talk) 08:49, 11 May 2020 (UTC)

This is something that happened on BART property, from the actions of the BART Police and a BART Police officer. The only connection I can see to Ron Dellums and the government of the City of Oakland is that the BART station is within the city limits of Oakland. That's it.

Did you have anything that suggests any other connection? Because you've certainly made none. --Calton | Talk 09:37, 11 May 2020 (UTC)

How would this sound? Seeking out your help! --47.144.151.55 (talk) 09:15, 26 May 2020 (UTC)

Oscar Grant III was a 22-year-old African-American man who was fatally shot in the early morning hours of New Year's Day 2009 by BART Police Officer Johannes Mehserle, during the third year of Dellums' term. Responding to reports of a fight on a crowded BART train returning from San Francisco, BART Police officers detained Grant and several other passengers on the platform at the Fruitvale BART Station. While Grant was held down in a prone position, Mehserle drew his pistol and shot him in the back. Grant was rushed to Highland Hospital in Oakland and pronounced dead later that day. Dellums' response to the event has been criticized by local black liberation media outlet the San Francisco Bay View. The events were captured on multiple official and private digital video and privately owned cell phone cameras, and owners disseminated their footage to media outlets of all stripes, and to various websites where it went viral. Both peaceful and violent protests took place in the following days. Dellums professed support for these demonstrations. The film Fruitvale Station dramatizes these events.

References

Kambon, Malaika. "Centuries of rage: The murder of Oscar Grant III". San Francisco Bay View. San Francisco Bay View National Black Newspaper. Retrieved 26 May 2020.
"Ron Dellums Speaks About Oscar Grant". YouTube. Retrieved 26 May 2020.

Reading this, I couldn't tell anyone what Dellum's response was, nor why it was criticized by one particular newspaper. The cite for "Dellums' response has been criticized" doesn't mention Dellums at all in the body of the article; rather, the caption for a photograph of a demonstrator asserts Dellums "refused...to confront the issue". This proposed edit also suggests (probably clumsily) that Dellums professed support for violent protests. I'd like to see much less biased sourcing for the event and a non-YouTube source for Dellums comments about the event. --jpgordon 15:06, 26 May 2020 (UTC)

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