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Revision as of 02:17, 30 October 2018 editPppery (talk | contribs)Interface administrators, Administrators100,202 editsm →Requested move 28 October 2018← Previous edit Latest revision as of 21:11, 16 June 2024 edit undoSilverLocust (talk | contribs)Administrators24,899 edits Closing requested move; Moved using rmCloser 
(74 intermediate revisions by 25 users not shown)
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{{oldtfdfull |date=10 April 2023 |result=no consensus |disc=Internal link namespace-specific templates}}
{{Talk header}} {{Talk header}}
{{central|text=], ], ], and talk pages of templates that transclude {{Tl|Lx}} redirect here.}} {{central|text=], ], ], and talk pages of templates that transclude {{Tl|Lx}} redirect here.}}
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|maxarchivesize = 50K |maxarchivesize = 50K
|counter = 3 |counter = 3
|algo = old(180d) |algo = old(180d)
|archive = Template talk:Ln/Archive %(counter)d |archive = Template talk:Namespace links/Archive %(counter)d
|archiveheader = {{Aan}} |archiveheader = {{Aan}}
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{{old move|date1=1 June 2024|name1=Template:Ln|destination1=Template:Namespace links|result1=moved|link1=Special:Permalink/1227022685#Requested move 1 June 2024|date2=9 June 2024|destination2=Template:Template links|result2=Moved|link2=Special:Permalink/1228714219#Requested move 9 June 2024}}


⚫ == Requested move 1 June 2024 ==
== Template-protected edit request on 18 November 2017 ==


<div class="boilerplate mw-archivedtalk" style="background-color: #efe; margin: 0; padding: 0 10px 0 10px; border: 1px dotted #aaa;"><!-- Template:RM top -->
{{edit template-protected|Template:Pagelinks|answered=yes}}
:''The following is a closed discussion of a ]. <span style="color:red">'''Please do not modify it.'''</span> Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a ] after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.''
Please copy over the contents of ] into {{tl|Pagelinks}}. See ] for "User talk:Example" for the linking difference on the subject page. This has also been manifesting in the interface (probably since ] and we didn't notice this prior), like .


The result of the move request was: '''moved.''' I've attempted to carry out all the moves, but feel free to leave me a message if there are any issues still outstanding. ] (]) 22:56, 8 June 2024 (UTC)
— ] (]) 15:45, 18 November 2017 (UTC)
----
:Courtesy pings {{u|Train2104}}, {{u|JJMC89}} — ] (]) 15:55, 18 November 2017 (UTC)
:] '''Done'''<!-- Template:ETp --> —&thinsp;]&thinsp;<small>(]'''·'''])</small> 17:42, 18 November 2017 (UTC)

⚫ —== Requested move 28 October 2018 ==

{{requested move/dated|multiple=yes
|current1=Template:Ln|new1=Template:Namespace links|current2=Template:lnt|new2=Template:Namespace talk links|current3=Template:Lb|new3=Template:Book links|current4=Template:Lbt|new4=Template:Book talk links|current5=Template:Lc|new5=Template:Category links|current6=Template:Lct|new6=Template:Category talk links|current7=Template:Ld|new7=Template:Draft links|current8=Template:Ldt|new8=Template:Draft talk links|current9=Template:Lf|new9=Template:File links|current10=Template:Lft|new10=Template:File talk links|current11=Template:Lh|new11=Template:Help links|current12=Template:Lht|new12=Template:Help talk links|current13=Template:Lp|new13=Template:Portal links|current14=Template:Lpt|new14=Template:Portal talk links|current15=Template:Lm|new15=Template:MediaWiki links|current16=Template:Lmt|new16=Template:MediaWiki talk links|current17=Template:Lw|new17=Template:Misplaced Pages links|current18=Template:Lwt|new18=Template:Misplaced Pages talk links|current19=Template:Lep|new19=Template:Education Program links|current20=Template:Lept|new20=Template:Education Program talk links|current21=Template:Lmd|new21=Template:Module links|current22=Template:Lmdt|new22=Template:Module talk links|current23=Template:Lttxt|new23=Template:TimedText links|current24=Template:Lttxtt|new24=Template:TimedText talk links|current25=Template:La|new25=Template:Article links|current26=Template:Lat|new26=Template:Article talk links|current27=Template:La-abbr|new27=Template:Article links abbreviated|}}


* ] → {{no redirect|Template:Namespace links}} * ] → {{no redirect|Template:Namespace links}}
* ] → {{no redirect|Template:Namespace talk links}} * ] → {{no redirect|Template:Namespace talk links}}
⚫ * ] → {{no redirect|Template:Book links}}
⚫ * ] → {{no redirect|Template:Book talk links}}
* ] → {{no redirect|Template:Category links}} * ] → {{no redirect|Template:Category links}}
* ] → {{no redirect|Template:Category talk links}} * ] → {{no redirect|Template:Category talk links}}
Line 43: Line 36:
* ] → {{no redirect|Template:Misplaced Pages links}} * ] → {{no redirect|Template:Misplaced Pages links}}
* ] → {{no redirect|Template:Misplaced Pages talk links}} * ] → {{no redirect|Template:Misplaced Pages talk links}}
* ] → {{no redirect|Template:Education Program links}}
* ] → {{no redirect|Template:Education Program talk links}}
* ] → {{no redirect|Template:Module links}} * ] → {{no redirect|Template:Module links}}
* ] → {{no redirect|Template:Module talk links}} * ] → {{no redirect|Template:Module talk links}}
Line 52: Line 43:
* ] → {{no redirect|Template:Article talk links}} * ] → {{no redirect|Template:Article talk links}}
* ] → {{no redirect|Template:Article links abbreviated}} * ] → {{no redirect|Template:Article links abbreviated}}
– I will start by acknowledging ], but I don't see anyone in that discussion who actually cited ] and it has been {{frac|5|1|2}} years.
– There has been a push in recent months to make template names more "obvious" - i.e. "what do they actually do". While the vast majority of people will ''continue'' to use shortcuts like {{t|la}}, it will help clear up any confusion (for example, if someone doesn't know whether {{t|lm}} links to Modules or MediaWiki they will immediately know it if they end up at {{t|MediaWiki link}}). If I've missed any (there are ]!) or there are one or two that really should be removed, I'm amendable to such changes. ] (]) 18:48, 28 October 2018 (UTC)

*As a note, I left out {{t|lt}} and {{t|ltt}} because {{t|Template links}} is already a redirect to {{t|Tfd links}} and there are just enough subtle differences that the future usage of {{t|lt}} is worth a different discussion. Same with {{t|lu}} and {{t|user links}}. ] (]) 00:24, 29 October 2018 (UTC)
Per ], {{tq|Template function should be clear from the template name, but redirects can be created to assist everyday use of very popular templates.}} I doubt that there are any editors who can guess what (to pick an arbitrary example) ] does without having read the documentation / seeing it used, so the current name is a clear violation of the guideline.
*'''Support''', per nomination. –&nbsp;]&nbsp;] 00:41, 29 October 2018 (UTC)

*'''Support creating redirects from the proposed long names to the existing short names''', '''Oppose moving'''. —] • ] • ] 02:26, 29 October 2018 (UTC)
Using opaque names is no problem for experienced editors, but makes it slightly harder for newbies to learn what templates do (]). The current names of these templates might not be the most pressing or largest problem facing Misplaced Pages, but it is certainly a problem worthy of a solution (in other words, this is not a solution looking for a problem).
* '''Support''' - per nom. In coding conventions using recognizable words is always preferred over short un-legible shorts as it makes the lives of those using it much easier and less pron to mistakes. This seems to be the same situation, as the template needs to be easy to understand what it does just by its name. --] (]) 08:00, 29 October 2018 (UTC)

* '''oppose'''. I can see no problem creating redirects from the long names to the short names, but the fact that this has only been done for one suggests people are happy using shorter names. The one that is used most, probably more than the rest combined, is {{tl|la}} and that already has longer redirects if people want to use them. There is no standard that template names need to be verbose or readable, many aren’t. I am not aware of any consensus this be changed.--<small>]</small><sup>]</sup><sub style="margin-left:-2.0ex;">]</sub> 08:34, 29 October 2018 (UTC)
Using obvious names also makes it easier to remember the names of these templates (see ]: {{tq|Template names are easiest to remember if they follow standard English spelling, spacing, and capitalization (also see the ] for articles)}}).

Of course, redirects would be kept and per ] would not be bypassed to use the longer form.

Pinging participants at the previous RM: {{ping|BD2412|BrandonXLF|Crouch, Swale|Dreamy Jazz|Gonnym|JohnBlackburne|Locke Cole|Primefac|Steel1943|p=.}} Thanks, <b>]]</b>&nbsp;(]&nbsp;·&nbsp;he/him) 22:11, 1 June 2024 (UTC)
*'''Weak support'''. I know it's more customary to have templates' titles be more descriptive these days, but the templates have been at these names for quite a while ... leaving me to believe moving them may have some sort of ] factor. ] (]) 22:16, 1 June 2024 (UTC)
*'''Support''' indeed template names are supposed to say what they are and not normally require people to know what the appreciation is for similar to using {{tl|citation needed}} instead of {{tl|cn}} as the title. ''']''' (]) 22:16, 1 June 2024 (UTC)
*'''Support''' as to all, per ]. Redirects are cheap, but good, descriptive template titles are priceless. ] ] 23:11, 1 June 2024 (UTC)
*'''Support''', obviously. To answer the opposition from last time (and hopefully assuage Steele1943 as well) the old names will still be available as redirects! No one ''actually'' uses {{t|Template link code}}, they use {{t|tlc}}. Similarly, if this goes through, they will still be available, but for someone who doesn't use these all the time (*cough cough* me) {{t|article links}} is the intuitive template name rather than {{t|la}} (which I ''still'' never remember when I see it in the wild). ] (]) 06:44, 2 June 2024 (UTC)
*:<small>{{Ping|Primefac}} Yeah, I know how redirects work and their incredible usefulness as they are my primary focus on Misplaced Pages 😂 ... but some I've interacted with in the past think redirects' very existence is ], which is whatever. 😅 Anywho, minus my perceived ]-titling factor, I'm more in the realm of "IDC" on the title of these templates these days. ] (]) 20:29, 2 June 2024 (UTC)</small>
*::{{small|True, and those are the people I was primarily targeting with my comments! ] (]) 06:00, 3 June 2024 (UTC)}}
<div style="padding-left: 1.6em; font-style: italic; border-top: 1px solid #a2a9b1; margin: 0.5em 0; padding-top: 0.5em">The discussion above is closed. <b style="color: #FF0000;">Please do not modify it.</b> Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.</div><!-- from ] -->
</div><div style="clear:both;" class=></div>

== Requested move 9 June 2024 ==

<div class="boilerplate mw-archivedtalk" style="background-color: #efe; margin: 0; padding: 0 10px 0 10px; border: 1px dotted #aaa;"><!-- Template:RM top -->
:''The following is a closed discussion of a ]. <span style="color:red">'''Please do not modify it.'''</span> Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a ] after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.''

The result of the move request was: '''Moved.''' <small>(])</small> ]&nbsp;] 21:11, 16 June 2024 (UTC)
----

⚫ * ] → {{no redirect|Template:Template links}}
⚫ * ] → {{no redirect|Template:Template talk links}}
– For the same reason as the above move (in a sentence, we should use descriptive names for templates while keeping redirects for everyday usage).

There is a slight issue with the proposed name: {{tl-r|Template links}} already exists as a redirect to the (separate) {{t|Tfd links}}. However, it is only used (and ] is not a real transclusion which would need fixing); we can always bypass the redirects in those 13 pages. I would also argue that there is a ] factor to consider: {{t|Lt}} should follow the same naming convention as the other namespace templates.

Pinging participants in the earlier RM: {{yo|Steel1943|Crouch, Swale|BD2412|Primefac|p=.}} Thanks, <b>]]</b>&nbsp;(]&nbsp;·&nbsp;he/they) 21:11, 9 June 2024 (UTC)
* No objection. I would consider this a speedy solution, or one to be done boldly, in keeping with the previous outcome. ] ] 21:18, 9 June 2024 (UTC)
**My thought process is that if we are going to be ] (including in user talk archives), we should get explicit consensus beforehand.<span id="HouseBlaster:1717968090063:Template_talkFTTCLNNamespace_links" class="FTTCmt"> <b>]]</b>&nbsp;(]&nbsp;·&nbsp;he/they) 21:21, 9 June 2024 (UTC)</span>
*'''Support''' the current names are meaningless. ''']''' (]) 22:26, 9 June 2024 (UTC)
*No objections here. ] (]) 14:02, 12 June 2024 (UTC)
*'''Looks like a ] situation'''. ] (]) 19:29, 12 June 2024 (UTC)
<div style="padding-left: 1.6em; font-style: italic; border-top: 1px solid #a2a9b1; margin: 0.5em 0; padding-top: 0.5em">The discussion above is closed. <b style="color: #FF0000;">Please do not modify it.</b> Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.</div><!-- from ] -->
</div><div style="clear:both;" class=></div>

Latest revision as of 21:11, 16 June 2024

This template was considered for deletion on 10 April 2023. The result of the discussion was "no consensus".
This is the talk page for discussing improvements to the Namespace links template.
Archives: 1, 2, 3Auto-archiving period: 6 months 
To help centralize discussions and keep related topics together, Template talk:Pagelinks, Template talk:Lx, Template talk:La, and talk pages of templates that transclude {{Lx}} redirect here.

This page has previously been nominated to be moved. Please review the prior discussions if you are considering re-nomination.

Discussions:

Requested move 1 June 2024

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: moved. I've attempted to carry out all the moves, but feel free to leave me a message if there are any issues still outstanding. Extraordinary Writ (talk) 22:56, 8 June 2024 (UTC)

– I will start by acknowledging a previous RM in 2018 on this issue, but I don't see anyone in that discussion who actually cited WP:TMP and it has been 5+1⁄2 years.

Per WP:TG, Template function should be clear from the template name, but redirects can be created to assist everyday use of very popular templates. I doubt that there are any editors who can guess what (to pick an arbitrary example) Template:Ln does without having read the documentation / seeing it used, so the current name is a clear violation of the guideline.

Using opaque names is no problem for experienced editors, but makes it slightly harder for newbies to learn what templates do (WP:BITE). The current names of these templates might not be the most pressing or largest problem facing Misplaced Pages, but it is certainly a problem worthy of a solution (in other words, this is not a solution looking for a problem).

Using obvious names also makes it easier to remember the names of these templates (see WP:TPN: Template names are easiest to remember if they follow standard English spelling, spacing, and capitalization (also see the naming conventions for articles)).

Of course, redirects would be kept and per WP:NOTBROKEN would not be bypassed to use the longer form.

Pinging participants at the previous RM: @BD2412, BrandonXLF, Crouch, Swale, Dreamy Jazz, Gonnym, JohnBlackburne, Locke Cole, Primefac, and Steel1943. Thanks, HouseBlaster (talk · he/him) 22:11, 1 June 2024 (UTC)

  • Weak support. I know it's more customary to have templates' titles be more descriptive these days, but the templates have been at these names for quite a while ... leaving me to believe moving them may have some sort of WP:SURPRISE factor. Steel1943 (talk) 22:16, 1 June 2024 (UTC)
  • Support indeed template names are supposed to say what they are and not normally require people to know what the appreciation is for similar to using {{citation needed}} instead of {{cn}} as the title. Crouch, Swale (talk) 22:16, 1 June 2024 (UTC)
  • Support as to all, per User:Crouch, Swale. Redirects are cheap, but good, descriptive template titles are priceless. BD2412 T 23:11, 1 June 2024 (UTC)
  • Support, obviously. To answer the opposition from last time (and hopefully assuage Steele1943 as well) the old names will still be available as redirects! No one actually uses {{Template link code}}, they use {{tlc}}. Similarly, if this goes through, they will still be available, but for someone who doesn't use these all the time (*cough cough* me) {{article links}} is the intuitive template name rather than {{la}} (which I still never remember when I see it in the wild). Primefac (talk) 06:44, 2 June 2024 (UTC)
    @Primefac: Yeah, I know how redirects work and their incredible usefulness as they are my primary focus on Misplaced Pages 😂 ... but some I've interacted with in the past think redirects' very existence is WP:COSTLY, which is whatever. 😅 Anywho, minus my perceived WP:SURPRISE-titling factor, I'm more in the realm of "IDC" on the title of these templates these days. Steel1943 (talk) 20:29, 2 June 2024 (UTC)
    True, and those are the people I was primarily targeting with my comments! Primefac (talk) 06:00, 3 June 2024 (UTC)
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Requested move 9 June 2024

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: Moved. (closed by non-admin page mover) SilverLocust 💬 21:11, 16 June 2024 (UTC)

– For the same reason as the above move (in a sentence, we should use descriptive names for templates while keeping redirects for everyday usage).

There is a slight issue with the proposed name: {{Template links}} already exists as a redirect to the (separate) {{Tfd links}}. However, it is only used 14 times (and at least one of those is not a real transclusion which would need fixing); we can always bypass the redirects in those 13 pages. I would also argue that there is a WP:SURPRISE factor to consider: {{Lt}} should follow the same naming convention as the other namespace templates.

Pinging participants in the earlier RM: @Steel1943, Crouch, Swale, BD2412, and Primefac. Thanks, HouseBlaster (talk · he/they) 21:11, 9 June 2024 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.