Talk:Ebionites: Difference between revisions

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Revision as of 02:57, 10 November 2006 editLoremaster (talk \| contribs)Extended confirmed users, Pending changes reviewers55,212 edits →The Way Forward (from peer review)← Previous edit		Latest revision as of 11:49, 28 June 2024 edit undoLoremaster (talk \| contribs)Extended confirmed users, Pending changes reviewers55,212 editsm →Robert Eisenman
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	== Towards Featured Article status ==
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	'''Before we push the article to ] - a step that should always be taken before the ] Candidacy step - , we need to 1) preserve a neutral point of view ; and 2) extensively provided references for every paragraph in this article following ] guidelines.''' --] 14:29, 14 August 2006 (UTC)
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			== This article has an unclear citation style ==
	'''According to a Misplaced Pages rule of thumb: 1) if something is in ''See also'', try to incorporate it into main body 2) if something is in main body, it should not be in ''See also'' and therefore 3) good articles have no ''See also'' sections.''' --] 01:29, 31 August 2006 (UTC)
	Shalom Loremaster,

			I suggest that all contributors to the ] article follow the example of the ] article when it comes to notes, citations and sources from now on. So we have a lot of work to do. —-] (]) 15:53, 26 August 2020 (UTC)
	:Articals explaining offical Misplaced Pages policy have "see also" sections.] 00:13, 10 September 2006 (UTC)

			== No primary sources ==
	::I know. However, I have a spoken to Misplaced Pages administrators about this issue and I've confirmed that this rule of thumb is an unofficial policy that is highly recommended. --] 02:07, 10 September 2006 (UTC)

			Here we have an article about a "group of Christians" that are devoid of any primary sources. I notice one contributor is obsessed with the "bloodline theory of Jesus Christ" as found in the book "The Holy Blood and the Holy Grail" even though it had nothing to do with Pierre Plantard and the Priory of Sion, and Plantard distanced himself from the nonsense in late 1982 on a French radio programme. Also Plantard actively criticised the book from 1989 onwards. The subject matter has been dead in France for ages. Plantard was a spent force in 1989 when his latest manifestation of the Priory of Sion was responsible for the final demise of Pierre Plantard, who died in 2000. It's only the British people that ever became obsessed with "The Holy Blood and the Holy Grail". Plantard himself had no interest in the "Jesus Bloodline" from the get-go because he was an old-fashioned French Roman Catholic, as can be gleaned from his works and writings. ] (]) 07:47, 17 June 2024 (UTC)
	==Toward Peer Review==

			:As the Misplaced Pages article on the ] clearly states in the introduction section: "Since historical records by the Ebionites are scarce, fragmentary and disputed, much of what is known or conjectured about them derives from the polemics of their Gentile Christian opponents, specifically the Church Fathers." This fact has never prevented numerous respected secular and religious encyclopedias of having entries on the subject of Ebionites.
	I am now satisfied with the . --] 17:34, 10 September 2006 (UTC)

			:As I suggested 4 years ago, the Ebionites article has an unclear citation style. We should all focus on improving it, which means, among other things, making proper use of primary sources (the Church Fathers and the Jewish-Christian gospels) when and where needed.
	:I am also satisfied with the . I will initiate the ] process. Thanks ], for your efforts to make this article into a candidate for ] status. ] 18:42, 10 September 2006 (UTC)

			:That being said, you are the one who is obsessed with ] since no one here currently believes in the Priory of Sion myth of Pierre Plantard nor the conspiracy theories of the authors of <i>The Holy Blood and the Holy Grail</i>. I've been watching over the ] article for years to ensure, among other things, that readers know that the Priory of Sion has been thoroughly debunked as a hoax.
	:::You're welcome. --] 19:37, 10 September 2006 (UTC)

			:However, what you seem to fail to understand is that the uncontroversial notion that James the Just is the biological brother (or half-brother) of Jesus is NOT related to unfounded speculation of a Jesus bloodline from Mary Magdalene. (For the record, I personally think that Jesus didn't father any biological children due to a vow of celibacy because of his belief that marriage would cease to exist in the Kingdom of God on Earth, and his alleged promotion of ]s as role models.)
	:::I will continue to make some minor edits to the article but nothing that will change it's structure or core content. --] 17:27, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

			:Bottom line: Please avoid engaging in unprovoked and absurd personal attacks against contributors to the Ebionites article. --] (]) 14:14, 17 June 2024 (UTC)
	'''See ]'''

			::FYI: You'll be happy to know that the mention of ″relatives of Jesus″ (which could be misinterpreted as promoting the hypothesis of Jesus bloodline from Mary Magdalene) has now been deleted from the Ebionites article. --] (]) 09:26, 18 June 2024 (UTC)
	:I have just made a series of suggestions here ] \| ] 20:56, 12 September 2006 (UTC)
	::Thank you. --] 21:39, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

			== Robert Eisenman ==
	] I suggest we reserve this page for disussions relating to peer review and follow-up work resulting from the peer review. I suggest moving the last two sections discussing editorial changes made prior to the peer review to Archive 2. I would move the rant about changes to the archived pages to Archive 1, where it can be combined with all the other POV material. ] 02:05, 17 September 2006 (UTC)

			Fringe. His works on The Dead Sea Scrolls are rightfully rejected. He is a Muslim by faith. ] (]) 07:52, 17 June 2024 (UTC)
	:Agreed. Done. --] 02:27, 17 September 2006 (UTC)

			:I hope you are not suggesting that someone's Muslim faith (or Jewish faith or liberal Christian faith or lack of faith) automatically prevents him or her from doing good scholarship on Christianity... That being said, although I'm not a fan of Robert Eisenman's works, we cannot deny or suppress the fact that he is among the few modern scholars who have written on the subject of Ebionites. Furthemore, although one of Eisenman's book is used as a source, the article does not discuss the Dead Sea Scrolls nor link them to the Ebionites. --] (]) 14:28, 17 June 2024 (UTC)
	::Its interesting that actual discussion about changes to the artical you call rants. then archiving it by moving it to a different section only makes for confusion. Do smoke screens and confusion work in your favor?] 00:50, 17 October 2006 (UTC)

	:::Whether they are rants or not, I only archive discussions that have ended and disputes have been resolved. Anyone can easily find and read the archives so my acts cannot be interpreted as some attempt to limit your freedom of speech. --] 16:11, 17 October 2006 (UTC)

	'''The peer review has been archived. It contains several ideas we can use to improve the Ebionites article.''' --] 14:26, 6 October 2006 (UTC)

	== The Way Forward (from peer review) ==

	Now that we have taken a bit of a break, I thought I would get things rolling. UberCyrix had some questions about sources as follows:

	1. ''There are some claims in there that definitely appear sketchy to average readers....like...."Accordingly they dispossessed themselves of all their goods and lived in communistic societies"

	2. "While Ebionites undoubtedly drew their doctrines from ideas circulating in the 1st century CE, Judeo-Christian origins scholar Robert Eisenman argues that they existed as a distinct group from Pauline Christians and Gnostic Christians before the destruction of Jerusalem," among many others.''

	Can we identify the sources of these entries and provide citations? Any others? Let's nail down our source material before we take on organization and style issues. ] 01:04, 2 November 2006 (UTC)

	:1.
	:2. Eisenman, Robert. James the Brother of Jesus: The Key to Unlocking the Secrets of Early Christianity and the Dead Sea Scrolls. New York: Viking, 1996
	:--] 01:46, 2 November 2006 (UTC)

	::Thanks. That was quick!

	How do you feel about UberCyrix's other suggestion:

	''The section Ebionite writings should be written in ], not lists. Same thing with the Sources section.''

	There is content overlap between Sources and Writings. The summary style comment may reflect a preference for inline citations. ] 03:08, 2 November 2006 (UTC)

	:The rationale for summary style is that the length of a given Misplaced Pages entry tends to grow as people add information to it. This cannot go on forever: very long entries would cause problems. However, I don't expect the Sources and Writings sections to grow. However, I have no problem with these sections being merged. --] 06:10, 2 November 2006 (UTC)

	:I think we should merge Sources 1 into History and Sources 2 into Writings. If we decide to expand the article later to list writings of the church fathers about Ebionites, we can create a separate bullet for Panarion 30.

	:BTW, this is refreshing. Been down so long I was starting to forget what up was like. ] 18:25, 2 November 2006 (UTC)

	Merged Sources into History and Writings sections as we discussed and used summary style. I think these changes address most of UberCyrix's suggestions. ] 02:54, 10 November 2006 (UTC)

	:Beautiful! :) --] 02:57, 10 November 2006 (UTC)

Latest revision as of 11:49, 28 June 2024

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Article milestones
Date	Process	Result
September 13, 2006	Peer review	Reviewed
December 22, 2006	Good article nominee	Listed
December 24, 2006	Peer review	Reviewed
April 12, 2007	Featured article candidate	Promoted
October 24, 2007	Featured article review	Demoted
Current status: Former featured article

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Archives

Index 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10
11

Topic specific archives

Peer Review Archive
Spiritual Ebionite Archive
Dispute Archive

Sources

This page has archives. Sections older than 60 days may be automatically archived by Lowercase sigmabot III when more than 4 sections are present.

This article has an unclear citation style

I suggest that all contributors to the Ebionites article follow the example of the Gospel of the Ebionites article when it comes to notes, citations and sources from now on. So we have a lot of work to do. —-Loremaster (talk) 15:53, 26 August 2020 (UTC)

No primary sources

Here we have an article about a "group of Christians" that are devoid of any primary sources. I notice one contributor is obsessed with the "bloodline theory of Jesus Christ" as found in the book "The Holy Blood and the Holy Grail" even though it had nothing to do with Pierre Plantard and the Priory of Sion, and Plantard distanced himself from the nonsense in late 1982 on a French radio programme. Also Plantard actively criticised the book from 1989 onwards. The subject matter has been dead in France for ages. Plantard was a spent force in 1989 when his latest manifestation of the Priory of Sion was responsible for the final demise of Pierre Plantard, who died in 2000. It's only the British people that ever became obsessed with "The Holy Blood and the Holy Grail". Plantard himself had no interest in the "Jesus Bloodline" from the get-go because he was an old-fashioned French Roman Catholic, as can be gleaned from his works and writings. Octavius88 (talk) 07:47, 17 June 2024 (UTC)

As the Misplaced Pages article on the Ebionites clearly states in the introduction section: "Since historical records by the Ebionites are scarce, fragmentary and disputed, much of what is known or conjectured about them derives from the polemics of their Gentile Christian opponents, specifically the Church Fathers." This fact has never prevented numerous respected secular and religious encyclopedias of having entries on the subject of Ebionites.

As I suggested 4 years ago, the Ebionites article has an unclear citation style. We should all focus on improving it, which means, among other things, making proper use of primary sources (the Church Fathers and the Jewish-Christian gospels) when and where needed.

That being said, you are the one who is obsessed with flogging a dead horse since no one here currently believes in the Priory of Sion myth of Pierre Plantard nor the conspiracy theories of the authors of The Holy Blood and the Holy Grail. I've been watching over the Priory of Sion article for years to ensure, among other things, that readers know that the Priory of Sion has been thoroughly debunked as a hoax.

However, what you seem to fail to understand is that the uncontroversial notion that James the Just is the biological brother (or half-brother) of Jesus is NOT related to unfounded speculation of a Jesus bloodline from Mary Magdalene. (For the record, I personally think that Jesus didn't father any biological children due to a vow of celibacy because of his belief that marriage would cease to exist in the Kingdom of God on Earth, and his alleged promotion of eunuchs as role models.)

Bottom line: Please avoid engaging in unprovoked and absurd personal attacks against contributors to the Ebionites article. --Loremaster (talk) 14:14, 17 June 2024 (UTC)

FYI: You'll be happy to know that the mention of ″relatives of Jesus″ (which could be misinterpreted as promoting the hypothesis of Jesus bloodline from Mary Magdalene) has now been deleted from the Ebionites article. --Loremaster (talk) 09:26, 18 June 2024 (UTC)

Robert Eisenman

Fringe. His works on The Dead Sea Scrolls are rightfully rejected. He is a Muslim by faith. Octavius88 (talk) 07:52, 17 June 2024 (UTC)

I hope you are not suggesting that someone's Muslim faith (or Jewish faith or liberal Christian faith or lack of faith) automatically prevents him or her from doing good scholarship on Christianity... That being said, although I'm not a fan of Robert Eisenman's works, we cannot deny or suppress the fact that he is among the few modern scholars who have written on the subject of Ebionites. Furthemore, although one of Eisenman's book is used as a source, the article does not discuss the Dead Sea Scrolls nor link them to the Ebionites. --Loremaster (talk) 14:28, 17 June 2024 (UTC)

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