Misplaced Pages talk:Naming conventions (television): Difference between revisions

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	==How do I name this?==
	If I'm going to write an article on a Korean variety show, how would I name it (it's called "X-Man", so I need a descriptor after it)? It's not exactly a serial, but would ] work? <small>—The preceding ] comment was added by ] (] • ]) {{{2\|}}}.</small><!-- Template:Unsigned -->

	:] seems good. There would likely be confusing with X-Man (TV show), so I would go with (variety show) instead. -- ] 05:23, 26 September 2006 (UTC)

	==Related discussion==

	There is currently a discussion at ], about the best way to consistently title ''Lost'' episodes (such as to use a suffix of "(Lost)" or "(Lost episode)"). Interested editors are invited to participate, to ensure consensus. --] 23:09, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

	== Episode naming, again! ==

	I'm a bit confused over episode naming. I have seen both ''Episode-name (Show-name)'' and ''Episode-name (Show-name episode)'' used. General naming convention is to describe WHAT the item is, not where it is from - for example, ''(actor)'' and ''(politician)'' would be preferred for diambiguating two names, and if there were more than one politician, then ''(Australian politician)'' and ''(Canadian politician)'' would be preferred. using ''(Australia)'' and ''(Canada)'' would be wrong using this method.

	I would have expected television episodes naming conventions to be a subset of the general naming conventions - and as such use ''(Lost episode)'' and ''(Jericho episode)'' for example. I have seen a few articles using just ''(Lost)'' which is wrong - the word "Lost" by itself doesn't do anything to tell you what the article is about, unless you already know that it is an episode of the show. Looking deeper I have found that ] for WikiProject Television episodes!

	Trying to find past discussion about this is tricky, I've found info scattered over ], ], ], ], ], and the associated talk pages. I'm not sure where I should bring it up, but the episode naming convention should be "(''Show name'' episode)" - it is after all a part of Misplaced Pages and where possible different projects should not have different naming schemes.

	Note: Whether or not episode article names should be pre-emptively disambiguated is another topic altogether! -- ] 02:59, 29 October 2006 (UTC)

	:Sounds like a reasonable rational to me, I agree. -- ] 03:31, 29 October 2006 (UTC)

	== Requesting comments for Lost episodes ==

	Requesting comments for ] - a debate over the use of disambiguation titles for episode articles of a TV show when no disambiguation is needed. -- ] 21:06, 29 October 2006 (UTC)
	: Please note that this is the same discussion as was already pointed to, two sections up. --] 23:16, 29 October 2006 (UTC)
	::Same discussion, but it was originally noted for (Lost) vs (Lost episode) instead of where the current discussion is at. -- ] 00:01, 30 October 2006 (UTC)

	== Star Trek example ==

	Since it's being discussed on ] I thought it would be good to note this here as well. Here is the reason the Star Trek "exception example" was removed from the guidelines:

	To use a disambig title when it is not necessary, for style or consistency reasons seem to be against general ]. For example, one should title the ] episode "''Fire + Water''" as ] instead of ], where "Fire + Water" doesn't exist as another article. Here are some discussions that seem to support this: ], ], ]. One exception was given for this without explanation, Star Trek episodes.

	I've been trying to find out how the Star Trek example got in the guideline in the first place, and I've seen it in. The talk page at that time did not have any mentioning of Star Trek, nor did the ] that was taken a few days before. I found two places in the talk archive where Star Trek is mentioned:

	*] - about a non-episode Star Trek article where it was preferred to use a non-disambig title when it was not needed.

	*] - which does talk about episode articles and the use of disambig titles, but ironically was being used as an example of articles that don't disambig when not needed.

	Had there been at least ''something'' that lead to this addition I would have likely discussed first before removing, but there was not. There is no major support for this, and it's very misleading. The inclusion of the Star Trek example is what mislead me to my own assumption that this was acceptable. If we have an exception in a guideline then the exception needs some explanation, some context. The Star Trek example has none, and its removal was appropriate. -- ] 00:27, 30 October 2006 (UTC)

	: I oppose your removing the information from the guideline (especially while you were involved in an active controversy about this in another part of Misplaced Pages). The information was useful, to show that there are multiple ways that episode titles can be handled. The Star Trek exception clearly affects hundreds of articles, as can be seen at ]. It's worth mentioning. --] 02:18, 30 October 2006 (UTC)

	::I originally removed it long before we were in a dispute. Being in dispute alone is not a reason to keep a bad note that conflicts with other guidelines on naming conventions. It clearly has affected a lot of articles, and because of it we have a lot of cleanup to do. It's best not to make the job any bigger. -- ] 03:03, 30 October 2006 (UTC)

	::: You removed it, without discussion, concurrent with the dispute at ] about a page move, even though that wording had been in place for months. Further, every time different wording was suggested, you simply reverted it without discussion. , and then in a display of profoundly bad faith, you then insisted that your version was "consensus", and that discussion was needed to ''restore'' the information that you had removed. .For the record, this is my current recommendation of what should (re)-added to the Guideline page, in the section under "Episode articles":
	:::<blockquote>''Certain shows such as ] and ] may use different formats. When in doubt, it is best to make new episode articles consistent with the practice that is already in existence for that program.''
	</blockquote>
	::: I would also point you to ], which says, "''Guidelines are not set in stone and should be treated with common sense and the occasional exception.''". --] 20:32, 30 October 2006 (UTC)

	::::I did remove it without discussion, because it was added without discussion, and you were trying to push an absurd and unjustified exception. Your current recommendation is without sound logic. A bad example is a bad example, no matter how many times you re-word it. Advice that is not easily agreed upon and that has clearly caused confusion is something that should be removed. Even if the example is allowed, the way the information was being presented clearly wasn't helpful. It provided no context, had no explanation whatsoever, and there was no "consensus" to include it. Just because no one noticed it for a while doesn't mean it gained consensus. It's not much different than removing unsourced text from an article, because there's nothing backing this example. -- ] 06:40, 31 October 2006 (UTC)

	== RfC Episode Article Naming conventions ==

	I am starting this as there is already four discussions on this page regaurding this issue, also It has come up on ] and ] and though I'm not involved I understand from this page that the debate is also raging (poetic license) on ]. I am going to try to detail the options as I see it and then give my recomendation.
	*<small>The current debate on the Lost articles is actually on ], for anyone who's interested. -- ] 20:04, 30 October 2006 (UTC) </small>

	'''Summary of the issue'''

	Currently there is a bit of confusion since ] says that the first article with a given name should be just that name. However in specific to episodic television episode articles, ] says to reference the guidlines at ]. Since the project guidlines aren't specific every one seems to be pushing for their own preffered version of NC. This RfC seeks to define a single NC for Television Episode articles.

	--<small><span style="-moz-border-radius: 5px; border: solid 2px #F98A2F; background-color: #FFF; color=#5994C5">] \| ] \| ] \| </span></small> 14:37, 30 October 2006 (UTC)

	===Potential Guidelines===

	#'''Use the existing naming convention from ] and ] ("Disambiguate only when necessary")'''
	#: Example: ], ], ], ]
	#'''Articles can be named <EpTitle> (NameOfSeries)'''
	#: Example: ]
	#'''Articles can be named <EpTitle> (NameOfSeries episode)'''
	#: Example: ]

	====Notification====
	I created <nowiki>{{User:Argash/TVEpNCRfC}}</nowiki> for placement on appropriate talk pages. Feel free to put on talk pages where you deem appropriate to direct people to this discussion.

	===Poll===

	Sign to indicate which options you agree with.

	====Poll Question 1: Disambiguate episode article titles only when necessary====
	=====Support=====
	A "support" vote means the disambiguation policy for television episode articles should be the same as the general policy: a title only should contain a parenthetical disambiguation if the title is ambiguous, and there are other articles with the same title.

	#'''Support'''. ] (] \| ]) 19:49, 30 October 2006 (UTC)
	#'''Support''' ] 21:25, 30 October 2006 (UTC)
	#'''Support''' —] (]) 22:31, 30 October 2006 (UTC)
	#'''Support''' —] <small>(] • ])</small> 22:58, 30 October 2006 (UTC)
	#'''Support''' ] 23:26, 30 October 2006 (UTC)
	#'''Support''' --] (] • ]) 23:43, 30 October 2006 (UTC)
	#'''Support''' --] 00:06, 31 October 2006 (UTC)
	#'''Support''' -- ] 02:01, 31 October 2006 (UTC)
	#'''Support''' ] 02:33, 31 October 2006 (UTC)
	#'''Support''' ]; ]. 03:09, 31 October 2006 (UTC)
	#'''Support''' ] 03:10, 31 October 2006 (UTC)
	#'''Support''' Izhmal (] \| ]) 03:44, 31 October 2006 (UTC)
	#'''Support''' ···]<sup>] · <small>] <font color="darkblue">to</font> ]]o]</small></sup> 03:47, 31 October 2006 (UTC)
	#'''Support''' - Just the episode name, then X (Y), then X (Y episode), if a previous version is taken. KISS - ] 04:37, 31 October 2006 (UTC)
	#'''Support'''. -- ] 05:23, 31 October 2006 (UTC)
	#'''Support''' and use ''(NameOfSeries episode)'' if required -- ] 07:07, 31 October 2006 (UTC)
	#'''Support''' we should consistently apply rules, not seek consistency by breaking them. -- ] 10:32, 31 October 2006 (UTC)
	#'''Support''' -- ] 13:10, 31 October 2006 (UTC)
	#'''Strong Support'''--]]<sup>]</sup> 16:38, 31 October 2006 (UTC)
	#'''Support''' don't use disambiguation unless the majority of articles in the series already require it. (i.e. don't just slap disambiguation onto every episode article of a series for consistency. But if the majority of episode articles already have disambiguation because they ''need'' it, then putting putting disambiguation on the remaining minority may be acceptable.) --] 05:15, 1 November 2006 (UTC)
	#'''Support''' ] 08:04, 3 November 2006 (UTC)
	#'''Support''': disambiguation and article titles are not grouping mechanisms; Categories and "List of" articles are. -- ] 04:12, 4 November 2006 (UTC)
	#'''Support''' — ]''<font color="green">]</font>''] <small>(])</small> 11:45, 5 November 2006 (UTC)
	#'''Support''' "Predisambiguation" (disambiguation when no known ambiguity issues exist) should not be supported on any articles. — ] 16:25, 6 November 2006 (UTC)
	#'''Support''' --] 22:23, 6 November 2006 (UTC)
	#'''Support''' --] 22:01, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

	=====Oppose=====
	An "oppose" vote means the disambiguation policy for television episode articles should be an exception as the general policy: a television episode's article title should always include the name of the series it is in, regardless of whether or not the episode title is ambiguous.

	# '''Strongly oppose''' <small><font face="Tahoma">'''thanks'''/] ] ]</font></small> 23:46, 30 October 2006 (UTC)
	# '''Oppose''': I prefer using a single, unified format for all episode titles, as indicated below. And FWIW, I ''don't'' have the luxury of checking WP many times per day, so try not to rush things. - ] → ]<span class="plainlinks"></span> 03:17, 31 October 2006 (UTC)
	# '''Oppose''': I like the person above me would like a single unified format as it looks better, and shows that they are part of a seires. - ] 07:15, 31 October 2006 (UTC)
	# '''Oppose''': ditto those above me --<small><span style="-moz-border-radius: 5px; border: solid 2px #F98A2F; background-color: #FFF; color=#5994C5">] \| ] \| ]</span></small> 01:19, 2 November 2006 (UTC)
	# '''Oppose''' --] 02:54, 2 November 2006 (UTC)
	#'''Oppose sometimes'''. I think that this poll is badly-worded, and further, the wording has been changed multiple times since it was created, so I don't think that everyone's even entirely clear on what they're supporting or opposing anymore. But to be clear on my own opinion: I am opposed to having a naming convention guideline which tries to write in stone that ''all'' television episodes on Misplaced Pages ''must'' use the exact same format. I think that ''most'' shows can use a similar format, but that some exceptions are valid (for example, the ] have been using a slightly different format for a long time, without a problem). Just as is said in ]: ''Guidelines are not set in stone and should be treated with common sense and the occasional exception.'' So the current poll wording of, "a television episode's article title should always include the name of the series it is in," does not accurately reflect the third "flexibility" option which I think is a better choice. --] 08:30, 2 November 2006 (UTC)
	#'''Oppose''' ] 09:02, 2 November 2006 (UTC)

	====Poll Question 2: Format of the disambiguation title ====
	This section of the poll is regarding what form parenthetical disambiguations for television episodes should take. This is for all parenthetical disambiguations for television episodes, regardless of whether all episodes have parenthetical disambiguations, or only those which are ambiguous.

	=====(NameOfSeries) =====
	#'''Support''' --<small><span style="-moz-border-radius: 5px; border: solid 2px #F98A2F; background-color: #FFF; color=#5994C5">] \| ] \| ] \|</span></small> 14:37, 30 October 2006 (UTC)
	#'''Support''' --] 20:21, 30 October 2006 (UTC)
	#'''Support''' 20:39, 30 October 2006 (UTC) <small>—The preceding ] comment was added by ] (] • ]) {{{2\|}}}.</small><!-- Template:Unsigned -->
	#'''Support''' -] 03:15, 31 October 2006 (UTC)
	#'''Support''' (based on recent clarification); that is, if disambiguation is necessary, use (NameOfSeries) unless that is itself ambiguous (e.g. ], because ] might be ambiguous). —] <small>(] • ])</small> 16:33, 1 November 2006 (UTC)
	#'''Support''', per Josiah Rowe; when/if necessary, use this form of disambiguation. I did think about this for quite a while; the ] section recommends using the simpler disambig when choosing between "disambiguating with a generic class or with a context." ] 16:57, 1 November 2006 (UTC)
	#'''Support''' when disambiguation is necessary, use this short and simple add-on. Adding the word episode only helps when there is another conflict, such as an episode being named after a character. ] 18:55, 1 November 2006 (UTC)<s> striking my support if the change stays. ] 20:37, 1 November 2006 (UTC)</s> restoring support due to new wording. ] 23:53, 1 November 2006 (UTC)
	#'''Support''' Use the minimum disambiguation required. -] 08:06, 3 November 2006 (UTC)
	#'''Support''', based on the ] advice of "choose whichever is simpler", and the example preference of "mythology" ( ~ NameOfSeries) over "mythological figure" ( ~ NameOfSeries episode). -- ] 04:16, 4 November 2006 (UTC)
	#'''Support''' — ]''<font color="green">]</font>''] <small>(])</small> 11:45, 5 November 2006 (UTC)
	#'''Support''' Of course, adding the term '''episode''' to the name of the series in the parenthetical remarks is appropriate when ''required'' for disambiguation. — ] 16:30, 6 November 2006 (UTC)
	#'''Support''', per above. <strong><font style="color: #082567">]</font>]<font style="color: #082567">]</font> (],])</strong> 18:10, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

	=====(NameOfSeries episode)=====
	# '''Support''' --] 20:22, 30 October 2006 (UTC)
	# '''Support''' <small><font face="Tahoma">'''thanks'''/] ] ]</font></small> 20:39, 30 October 2006 (UTC)
	# '''Support''' - ] → ]<span class="plainlinks"></span> 21:28, 30 October 2006 (UTC)
	# '''Support''' - There are several episodes which are named after a character, place, event etc. even within that fictional universe, therefore appending 'episode' makes it clear it's an article about an episode, not the place, character etc. ] 22:21, 30 October 2006 (UTC)
	# '''Support''' --] 22:34, 30 October 2006 (UTC)
	# '''Support''' per Marky1981 --]]] 22:51, 30 October 2006 (UTC)
	# '''Support'''--] 23:02, 30 October 2006 (UTC)
	# <s>'''Support''' --<small><span style="-moz-border-radius: 5px; border: solid 2px #F98A2F; background-color: #FFF; color=#5994C5">] \| ] \| ] \| </span></small> 00:12, 31 October 2006 (UTC)</s>
	#'''Support''' --] 02:14, 31 October 2006 (UTC)
	#'''Somewhat support''' I don't feel strongly about this, but if I had to make a choice it would be to include the word episode. -- ] 02:15, 31 October 2006 (UTC)
	#'''Support''' ] 18:19, 31 October 2006 (UTC) In general I prefer generic nouns over fields as disambiguator
	#'''Support''' Now, are the poll questions going to actually stay the same this time? :P To clarify - disambig only when necessary, and when necessary, use "(NameOfSeries episode)" -- ] 07:41, 1 November 2006 (UTC)
	#'''Support''' ] 09:03, 2 November 2006 (UTC)
	#'''Support''' - ] 03:03, 10 November 2006 (UTC)

	===Further comments===

	I guess now that I have summed up the issue I will note that the option that I prefer is the second as it's unifying, descriptive and not overly wordy.

	Obviously this is not an exhaustive list of pros v cons but it should be enough to get an idea and debate the issue. I will be posting this to ] and hopefully we can come to a concensus and make a unifying standard.

	--<small><span style="-moz-border-radius: 5px; border: solid 2px #F98A2F; background-color: #FFF; color=#5994C5">] \| ] \| ] \| </span></small> 14:37, 30 October 2006 (UTC)

	:There is also a discussion about this at ], <small><font face="Tahoma">'''thanks'''/] ] ]</font></small> 14:50, 30 October 2006 (UTC)

	::I've done what I can to clean it up. Let's hope something good comes out of this. ] (] \| ]) 19:49, 30 October 2006 (UTC)

	This RfC is a bit confusing. For one, the discussion over the Lost episodes is happening on ] and not the other Lost talk page. Also, on the Lost discussion we're mostly talking about the use of disambig titles ("Showtitle (Lost whatever)") when no disambig title is needed. However, the 3 "vote" options presented don't allow for someone to say if they prefer "(Show Name episode)" or "(Show Name)" ''without'' needless disambiguation. Can we change the wording on this and the options before people get too far into this so there's less confusion? Also, it'd be nice if we could transclude some of the comments from that Lost talk page to here, as I'd hate to bug everyone again for a ''second'' comment. -- ] 20:02, 30 October 2006 (UTC)
	:That's a good point, Ned. I wonder if we actually need to take two votes here: one to determine whether episodes should always have the parenthetical disambiguation suffix or should only include when necessary, and one to determine whether that suffix should be "(ShowName)" or "(ShowName episode)" or something else.
	:Regarding the first point (whether to disambiguate always, or only when necessary): I would normally be quick to go with the universal standard, but the fact of the matter is that episode titles are actually pretty rarely used in day-to-day discussions. I mean, if I were to say to my co-worker, "Hey, did you see 'Static' last night?" he wouldn't know that I was referring to last night's episode of ]. I agree that Misplaced Pages articles should be named with the simplest, clearest title possible, and that we should only add disambiguation when necessary. But "simplest and clearest" doesn't always mean "shortest." In this case, I think adding the disambiguation is actually simpler and clearer than not adding it.--] 20:49, 30 October 2006 (UTC)
	::Not sure who added the previous comment, I'll dig through the history later and find it but I agree with your first point as I would most deffinately vote for either 2 or 3 before option one. And I do agree with Ned as well. The main reason I posted the discussion here was because it was spread across so many shows. I will through together a notice later tonight that we can throw up on talk pages to let people know that this discussion is here. --<small><span style="-moz-border-radius: 5px; border: solid 2px #F98A2F; background-color: #FFF; color=#5994C5">] \| ] \| ] \| </span></small> 00:08, 31 October 2006 (UTC)
	::A lot of films aren't recognizable in the mainstream, but I don't think they all need to be appended with "(film)." I think if the current guideline is sufficient; if ambiguous, they should be appended with the showname in parentheses, otherwise they should not. ] 21:29, 30 October 2006 (UTC)
	:::I think using films is a bad analogy here as films are singular where as it's not uncommon for a tv series to have 100-200 episodes or more. --<small><span style="-moz-border-radius: 5px; border: solid 2px #F98A2F; background-color: #FFF; color=#5994C5">] \| ] \| ] \| </span></small> 00:08, 31 October 2006 (UTC)
	:I actually experienced this myself moments ago... Matthew referred to ] above and it wasn't until visiting the page that I realized it was even a television episode, let alone one from ]. And I was reading a comment ''about television episodes.'' Sure, a large part of that may be due to my own daftness... --] 20:49, 30 October 2006 (UTC)
	It's not real useful to have the same subject being discussed at multiple places. There's no way this "vote" can be considered binding unless people in the other discussions are notified as well. I only stumbled on this by looking at other people's contributions. That notwithstanding, can someone please explain this supposed watchlist benefit to number 2 above? Are there people that are watching pages but don't want to fix vandalism in them because they're not related to Lost?! Please tell me that's not the case. If an article is in your watchlist, you should look for vandalism in edits to that article, regardless of the article's subject - and certainly regardless of that article's naming convention! —] (]) 22:49, 30 October 2006 (UTC)

	: (edit conflict) It's actually not a primary consideration, but for me, I do a ''lot'' of work on Misplaced Pages, and routinely have about 2,000 articles on my watchlist at any one time, even with constant pruning. If I have time, yes, it's nice to be able to go through and check the most recent change on every single article I'm watching. More often, however, I'm just on Misplaced Pages for a few minutes, so I like to focus on the ''Lost'' articles, since I'm very familiar with that subject matter right now. Also, to be honest, the changes to the ''Lost'' episode articles are more likely to need patrolling for vandalism or original research than many of the others on my list. However, I don't have every single episode title memorized, and many of the episode titles don't ''look'' like episode titles (like ] or ]). So having the additional suffix makes them easier to spot in my watchlist. And again, it's not a major issue with me, but it is still something that's helpful, which is why I added it to the "Pro" section. :) --] 23:30, 30 October 2006 (UTC)

	::Just FYI, you can get a watchlist for just Lost episodes if you bookmark this link: . ] 23:49, 30 October 2006 (UTC)
	::I have to agree with you on this point as well --<small><span style="-moz-border-radius: 5px; border: solid 2px #F98A2F; background-color: #FFF; color=#5994C5">] \| ] \| ] \| </span></small> 00:08, 31 October 2006 (UTC)

	Preemptive disambiguation has always been and continues to be a bad idea. Article titles should consist only of the ''titles'' of ''articles''. In some cases, this policy doesn't work because some things have the same title. In those cases, as a last resort, we disambiguate the title using a parenthetical disambiguation. Parenthetical disambiguations are ''bad thing'', to be avoided unless absolutely necessary. We should not be implementing policies that change article titles to generic information containers that contain titles and any other random grab-bag of information, like the name of the series it is a part of, or whatever. It's a muddy semantic mess that would only cause worse semantic muddying elsewhere on Misplaced Pages. Once we put "(Star Trek episode)" (or whatever) in the title of every Star Trek episode, why not put "(Star Trek character)" after every character or "(2005 novel)" after every novel written last year or "(person who graduated college)" in the title of every article about college graduates, and so on? Star Trek episodes are not special and there is no compelling reason why they should have special exemption to the general policy of only disambiguating when disambiguation is necessary. While it may provide a small benefit in remembering link names for those users who exclusively edit articles relating to Star Trek, for the rest of us, who are just as likely to link to a Star Trek episode as any other article, having a policy of preemptive disambiguation for Star Trek articles is just another dumb exception that has to be memorized and makes Misplaced Pages less consistent overall. ] 23:12, 30 October 2006 (UTC)
	:I agree, well stated. ] 23:27, 30 October 2006 (UTC)
	::Imo it has evolved into more then being just "disambig." <small><font face="Tahoma">'''thanks'''/] ] ]</font></small> 23:32, 30 October 2006 (UTC)
	:I completely disagree with you in this case. Normally yes preemtive disambig would not be advisable (i.e. 2005 novel, film, etc) but in this case i think the pro's far out weigh the cons. --<small><span style="-moz-border-radius: 5px; border: solid 2px #F98A2F; background-color: #FFF; color=#5994C5">] \| ] \| ] \| </span></small> 00:08, 31 October 2006 (UTC)

	:::Sorry, are you saying that disambiguation isn't disambiguation?

	:::I think that the summary doesn't quite do justice to the first option. The current guideline isn't "first come, first served"; it's "disambiguate only when necessary". Specifically, it's "disambiguate only when there would be confusion if you didn't." True, it's not readily apparent that ] is about an episode of ''The 4400''; but then, it's not readily apparent that ] is an Agatha Christie mystery — until you click on the link. We don't title that page ], because there's nothing else that would claim that title. Similarly, unless there's another article that could be titled ], we shouldn't title the article ].

	:::I'm also confused by the obsession that some editors have with "consistency". Why should we fetishize the names of articles? In any article related to the television series, an episode's name will be piped anyway. It's only in a category that people will see that some articles have the suffix and some do not. Do ] and the other daughter categories of ] look less "professional" because the Doctor Who WikiProject follows standard Misplaced Pages practice? For that matter, does ] look less "professional" because some articles have the (novel) suffix and some do not? —] <small>(] • ])</small> 00:00, 31 October 2006 (UTC)
	::::Again, well stated, I agree. ] 00:03, 31 October 2006 (UTC)

	:::::The point I was trying to make above is that televisions episodes are exceptional in that the episode titles are not usually known by anyone except avid fans of the series. I agree that it would be silly to use ], because that book is generally referred to, and thought of, as "''The Man in the Brown Suit''," and not "Christie's 1924 novel" or "The one she wrote after ''Murder on the Links.''" TV episodes, on the other hand, are only known to most people as "last night's ''Heroes'' episode" or "the ''E.R.'' fifth season finale." I have become a pretty avid fan of ], but I'd be hard pressed to give you the names of ''any'' of the episodes without looking at the episode list.
	:::::Because the most official name for a television episode is also the least-known and least-used, I think an exception to the Misplaced Pages standard is justified. --] 00:20, 31 October 2006 (UTC)
	:::::By the way, Josiah, I agree with you in that there is nothing ''unprofessional'' about leaving off the disambiguation. I think it has more to do with ease-of-use than professionalism. --] 00:43, 31 October 2006 (UTC)

	::::::Fair enough; I'm just not convinced that there is a significant ease-of-use advantage in adding a suffix every time.

	::::::I also think that there are probably plenty of casual readers of Agatha Christie novels who might think of, say, '']'' as "the one set in Jerusalem". I don't see that as an argument for moving that page to ]. —] <small>(] • ])</small> 01:05, 31 October 2006 (UTC)

	Can you guys not pick two options? Seriously, it sets a bad example and it just attempt to have it "one way or the other". Should the two propositions just be merged? ] (] \| ]) 00:02, 31 October 2006 (UTC)

	: (edit conflict) My own feeling is that it's a bad idea to pick one and only one way of doing with it, and then trying to force that one method on every episode article for every series. I think that for some series, using the suffixes is a good idea, and for others, the "only in cases of disambiguation" works well. But some others appear to disagree and want to insist that there should be only one method of handling it. Maybe we should add a "Flexibility" option to the above poll? Then we could a sentence like this to the guidelines: ''Certain shows such as ] and ] may use different formats. When in doubt, it is best to make new episode articles consistent with the practice that is already in existence for that program.'' --] 00:32, 31 October 2006 (UTC)

	Nohat, I am ] regarding your additions to the pros and cons above, but many of them seem (to me, anyway) to be somewhat redundant and some are a little flippant. I invite you to consolidate your arguments a little to more accurately represent the different sides of this issue. Thank you! --] 00:29, 31 October 2006 (UTC)

	:Well, there are major advantages and disadvantages and minor advantages and disadvantages. Since many of the existing entries seemed to me to be extremely minor, it seemed reasonable to just make the lists as exhaustive as possible and let readers decide for themselves the significance each pro and con. As for whether any are ''redundant'', I don't think any of my additions are; they all occurred to me as distinct advantages or disadvantages, although the distinction in some cases is somewhat subtle. Perhaps some related but subtly distinct pros and cons could be combined into single bullet points, but aren't we splitting hairs enough? ] 00:40, 31 October 2006 (UTC)

	:My view (as someone who is very peripheral to this discussion, on which I don't have immensely strong feelings) is that people are using the "Pro" and "Con" statements above to implicitly argue for their bias, rather than present a neutral laying out of various approaches. The statements seem overwhelmingly slanted towards Option 1, in other words. I find this objectionable as a debating style, frankly, and it makes me wonder why people feel they need to stack the deck in this manner. -- ] 00:37, 31 October 2006 (UTC)

	::Fine, I removed everything but the options. Now, can get back to what's importante?

	::Elonka, no. Whatever the ultimate fallout is, a clear policy needs to be set, no exceptions. And I was talking about votes. People voting for guidelines two and three, specifically. We might as well merge them for now if people are just going to vote for both ] (] \| ]) 00:46, 31 October 2006 (UTC)
	:::I would be OK with merging options 2 and 3 for now and then doing a sperate poll if that option prevails. --<small><span style="-moz-border-radius: 5px; border: solid 2px #F98A2F; background-color: #FFF; color=#5994C5">] \| ] \| ] \| </span></small> 00:55, 31 October 2006 (UTC)

	:::I think the removal may have been a bit hasty. There were some valid points on both sides that people should take into consideration. Please consider restoring the information, perhaps putting it in a slightly different context. ] 00:51, 31 October 2006 (UTC)

	::I rephrased the characterization of the existing policy from "first come first served" to "disambiguate only when necessary". I think that's a more accurate description. Whether the pros and cons are kept or not, I hope this can be retained. —] <small>(] • ])</small> 00:52, 31 October 2006 (UTC)
	:::Not to start anything but alot of the pros/cons that were added were just restating ] and ] --<small><span style="-moz-border-radius: 5px; border: solid 2px #F98A2F; background-color: #FFF; color=#5994C5">] \| ] \| ] \| </span></small> 00:58, 31 October 2006 (UTC)

	Also, I think there are two arguments here that should be discussed separately:

	# Should article titles for television episodes use parenthetical disambiguations in all cases, or only when the article title is ambiguous?
	# When television article titles use parenthetical disambiguations (that is, regardless of which option is picked for choice 1), should the format of the parenthetical disambiguation be (SeriesName) or (SeriesName episode)?

	The two questions are completely orthogonal, and the current format of the poll conflates them. ] 00:55, 31 October 2006 (UTC)

	: For now, I think we should stick with the poll as it's structured, rather than making quick course changes. I see a lot of commentary here from people (including myself) who have the luxury of being able to check Misplaced Pages multiple times per day. But as I'm sure we all know, many Misplaced Pages editors who might like to offer an opinion, haven't even seen the poll yet. So I recommend letting it run for a few days, and give everyone a chance to weigh in. Meanwhile, we can also discuss proper wording for another poll, if one becomes necessary. Remember, ]. We're not here for a "majority rules" option, we're here to try and have a good faith discussion, and see if we can find a consensus. For example, along with the "do it or don't do it" options, I still think it's worthwhile to discuss the "It depends" option, to allow flexibility in the titling systems for different television programs. --] 01:00, 31 October 2006 (UTC)


	I've updated the poll format a bit so people can state a preference for disabig titles '''and''' indicate support or oppose for disabig only when necessary. Those who wish to oppose the latter will need to re-sign under the new section. Sorry for the late change, but I did sort of suggest this early on (and then had to go to work). -- ] 02:13, 31 October 2006 (UTC)

	I think this discussion could benefit from the ]. Adding disambiguation when unnecessary just complicates things. If "Title" is redirecting to "Title (disambiguation)" the page always gets moved. Any argument that a particular type of article is an exception puts too much emphasis on trivia, which we also like to avoid. ] 03:36, 31 October 2006 (UTC)

	I've removed the stupid votes for multiple policies and "opposition". Let's be clear: you cannot vote for two things, period. One or the other. By voting for one thing, you're voting against the other. Pick an option and stick with it. Double votes for dabbing and no dabing have been removed. If the voters really care, they can re-add '''ONE''' vote to '''ONE''' choice and no more. Honestly.... ] (] \| ]) 07:59, 31 October 2006 (UTC)
	:I've reverted your edits. You clearly misunderstand the situation. There are two '''different''' things being polled here. If you took the time to read the discussion you would see that. -- ] 08:48, 31 October 2006 (UTC)

	====A question====
	Just a quick question for those who are supporting sticking with the current policy. Are you voting that way simply because it's the current policy? Not to be rude I just haven't seen anyone give a good and valid reason as to why they prefer that. Mostly what I've seen from your group is "Thats the policy why change it?" I'm really curious to know. --<small><span style="-moz-border-radius: 5px; border: solid 2px #F98A2F; background-color: #FFF; color=#5994C5">] \| ] \| ] \| Status:{{User:Argash/status}}</span></small> 09:05, 31 October 2006 (UTC)
	:] has a lot of that discussion. -- ] 09:09, 31 October 2006 (UTC)
	:I don't know what you mean; see Josiah Rowe and Nohat's reasonings, for example. ] 09:39, 31 October 2006 (UTC)
	::Other than saying they dont want to change the current practice the only thing I've seen them ask is do the categories look less professional because some have the suffix and some don't. I would answer yes they do but that isn't the point. the point that I (and I think most of the others) am trying to make is that the suffix adds much needed context to the article title. --<small><span style="-moz-border-radius: 5px; border: solid 2px #F98A2F; background-color: #FFF; color=#5994C5">] \| ] \| ]</span></small> 10:18, 31 October 2006 (UTC)
	:::Then I don't believe you've read them; here are the diffs (, ). ] 10:51, 31 October 2006 (UTC)
	::::I read them, and all they seem to say (as far as I can tell) is regurgitate the existing policy. The only unique statement I see was this '''I'm also confused by the obsession that some editors have with "consistency". Why should we fetishize the names of articles? In any article related to the television series, an episode's name will be piped anyway.''' To which I would say we aren't obsessed, we just want consistency across large swaths of articles. The novel argument or character argument just doesn't wash with me. Where you might have a handful of characters in a series or novels in a trilogy or series, a TV show might have 100-200 episodes through out its run (and don't get me started on Dr. Who). I guess what I'm asking is why do you think it's so wrong to preemptively tag these large chunks of articles? Why do you think it's so wrong to be consistent across these large number of articles? --<small><span style="-moz-border-radius: 5px; border: solid 2px #F98A2F; background-color: #FFF; color=#5994C5">] \| ] \| ]</span></small> 11:34, 31 October 2006 (UTC)
	:::::It's wrong because it's pointless and has no end. The most prominent reason on the disambiguate-always side seems to be that Lost episode articles will be easier to find in Elonka's 2,000-item watchlist! By that logic, I should tag ] and ] with (New York Mets player) because I'm a New York Mets fan. What a terrible reason. The name of episode articles is pretty trivial anyway since no one knows episodes by name - they'll only be able to find the episodes by scanning through lists with season numbers and summaries - and then the piped links will make the inconsistency invisible anyway. I'm still waiting for a decent reason for pre-emptive disambiguation in any case, let alone among Lost episode articles. —] (]) 12:23, 31 October 2006 (UTC)
	:I prefer the current guideline because it's a good guideline. I haven't seen too many say they like the current convention ''solely'' because it's the current guideline so I don't know why you say that. I disagree that there's some level of "professionalism" gained by adding a word in parentheses to only this group of articles. Among other things, this opens the door to add (whatever) to every article title. The same reasoning applies almost anywhere - I'll add (baseball player) to every baseball bio, and (nation) to every nation article and (plant species) to every plant species article. What's the point to any of those? It doesn't make any of them look more "professional" and only makes life (very slightly) easier for editors, not readers. I like the term "fetishism" that someone is using here to describe making the article names fit the same pattern because that seems to be the only motivator here. Look at http://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Category:Living_people&from=Smith - should we add some common disambiguator to all of the living Smith articles just because all of the article titles on that screen don't match? Of course not. —] (]) 11:30, 31 October 2006 (UTC)
	::If people are seeing the most prominent reason to "disambiguate" (I'll explain the quotes in a minute) as being the improvement of Elonka's formidable watchlist, then I think at least one argument is being overlooked. In my mind, the most prominent reason to do it is because '''episode titles alone are not complete or dependable identifiers of television episodes.''' Some TV series (], ]) don't even display the titles as part of the episode at all. If you read a novel where each chapter was marked with only a number ("Chapter 1," "Chapter 2," and so on), would it be intuitive to have research on those chapters listed under the names that the author might have used but didn't actually include in the book?
	::That being said, I wonder if part of the issue here is semantics: the proposal is to somehow put the series name in a parenthesis after the episode title, something that is otherwise used in Misplaced Pages to indicate disambiguation. But I'm not sure that disambiguation is people are looking for here (which is why I put it in quotes above). ] seems to better illustrate what ''I'm'' thinking of, but of course that's hopelessly unwieldly for an article name. Is there better way to identify episodes as being "chapters in a series" than by using the system normally used for disambiguation? --] 15:02, 31 October 2006 (UTC)
	::::Toby, this is a noteworthy point, and it leads to the question of whether it is necessary to provide this context in the name of an article. Any link to a specific episode of a television series should provide enough context for a reader to know that they're going to an article about an episode. The job of an article title ''isn't'' to provide context for those who don't know what the subject is — the article does that. If I came upon a contextless link to, say ] (a page I found by hitting "random article" a few times), I would have no idea what that was. But if I see a link to Adios Butler in a list of pacing horses on ], then I'll know that Adios Butler is a horse. My ignorance of the subject of horse racing is not a justification for renaming that article ].

	::::The mere fact that most people who watch television don't take note of episodes' names does not mean that Misplaced Pages needs to provide that context in an article's title. I'd expect that if someone wanted to find an article on a particular episode of ''Lost'', they'd probably go first to ], thence to ], thence to ], where they'll find the episode they're interested in. At no point in that process does it matter whether the episode is titled ] or ]. So the fact that most television viewers don't know episode names is really irrelevant to the question of Misplaced Pages's naming conventions. —] <small>(] • ])</small> 19:20, 31 October 2006 (UTC)

	:::The same point still holds though. If someone mentions Fred Clarke, not too many people will know who that is. Is that a reason to name his article, "Fred Clarke, Hall of Fame Major League baseball player"? I don't think so. The only people that are likely to ever find the Jericho episode article you mention are people who are looking for Jericho episode articles - whether it's disambiguated or not. If I click on The Four Horseman and it turns out to be a Jericho episode article, so what? I'll figure it out after the first sentence (assuming it follows ], ] and ] as it should). —] (]) 15:36, 31 October 2006 (UTC)
	:::: If we, as Wikipedians, decide that individual television episodes are notable enough to have their own articles, then they are ''prima facie'' notable enough to stand alone on their titles. TV episode titles are not qualitatively more obscure and in need of contextualization than any other group of relatively obscure things, like ], ], or ]. The things in those groups don't need preemptive disambiguation, and neither do TV episodes. ] 18:33, 31 October 2006 (UTC)
	:::::Excellent point, Nohat. --] 18:48, 31 October 2006 (UTC)
	Nohat and Wknight94 have explained the "keep it as is" position fairly well, but just for the record I'll add my reasons. I ''do'' support the existing policy, because it's a good policy. An article should have the shortest name that identifies its subject clearly, and without ambiguity. As TobyRush points out, parenthetical suffixes on Misplaced Pages exist to resolve ambiguity between titles, not to provide context for an article's subject. The ''article'' does that, ideally in its first line.

	I don't think that it's "wrong" to be consistent — I just don't think that ''context-providing'' consistency is a value that needs to be taken into account in article naming. I do feel that the example of ] is relevant — only the devotees of a particular author will recognize the titles of all of her works. Many of them are works in a series, not unlike the episodes of a television series. It's ''exactly'' parallel to the television example: if we must label ] as ], then by the same reasoning we should label ] as ]. I really don't see the difference. —] <small>(] • ])</small> 19:20, 31 October 2006 (UTC)
	:To be fair, though, I don't think it's ''exactly'' parallel; the ''most commonly used identifier'' for a novel is more often its title, whereas the ''most commonly used identifier'' for a television episode is something along the lines of "that one episode of where...". If we're looking for something analogous to "episode X of series Y", I think it's somewhere inbetween "novel X of author Y" and "chapter X of novel Y." It seems to me that someone who reads Agatha Christie novels, whether a "devotee" or simply a fan of fiction in general, is going to know the books by their names. But my brother-in-law, who can quote entire episodes of ] verbatim, can't tell you the episode names for any of them.
	:However, finding an exact analogy is going to be impossible because it's going to vary wildly within any category, television episodes included. My point is that television episodes represent a unique situation, and that as such it's worth exploring whether or not they warrant an exception to the general rule. In that regard, though, your point (the first line should provide the necessary context) and Nohat's point (if an episode has its own article, it's independent enough to be identified by the episode title) are absolutely correct. --] 19:53, 31 October 2006 (UTC)
	I also support the existing policy, not because it's the one that exists, but because it is a good, well thought out, policy. I mentioned the ] above as to why the existing policy is good. Not using disambiguation is always the simplest thing to do, it just isn't always possible because of ambiguity. When ambiguity complicates things anyway, using a longer title is actually useful, but the longer title should still be the simplest one possible. The first time I read the policy I thought, "Well, that makes sense." which is why I used it when naming articles from ]. Those articles may not be very good yet, but they all have the simplest name they can, and I've had no trouble keeping track of them in my watchlist even when they don't say (Xiaolin Showdown) after them. ] 19:36, 31 October 2006 (UTC)

	: My position in support of suffixes is this:
	:*In the case of ''Lost'', the majority of the episodes already have the suffix, since the show creators like to re-use specific phrases, so it makes sense to add suffixes to the minority of episodes that don't have it, in order to keep a consistent look and feel.
	:*By the nature of the show, the episode articles are highly interlinked, and we frequently have to link to multiple different episodes within each article, so it makes sense to use a consistent titling scheme for ease of editing, rather than constantly having to check to see which episode has the suffix, and which one doesn't.
	:*Ease of navigation for the average reader: If they are stepping through articles with the navigation box, I think it looks odd to see that most of the episodes ''do'' use the suffix, but some do not. Most of our casual readers are going to be oblivious to the subtleties of disambiguation, so I don't think it's an issue for them. The method of only adding suffixes to episode titles that absolutely need it for disambiguation, ends up looking "random" to most people, resulting in a look that is unprofessional and confusing.
	:* Another advantage to including suffixes, is the watchlist issue, though I will repeat again that this is ''not'' my primary motivation, it's just an added benefit, to quickly be able to identify which items in my watchlist are ''Lost'' episodes.
	:* With consistent suffixes, the category listing looks cleaner, rather than being an apparent hodgepodge of episodes with and without suffixes, which frankly looks like an error: ].
	:And lastly, I continue to be bewildered as to why people feel it's so necessary to make a strong stand on this "no suffix" point. I honestly don't see that there would be any major negative impact on Misplaced Pages by allowing all of the episodes of a particular television show, such as ''Lost'', to use a consistent titling system. The ''Star Trek'' episodes in ] have been using consistent suffixes in a stable manner for a long time, and I haven't seen any indication that this causes mass confusion. To my mind, the ''Star Trek'' episode articles and related categories look clean, consistent, and professional. Further, if someone were to go through and attack the ''Star Trek'' system by insisting on moving episodes to different non-suffix titles simply because of an obsessive need to "enforce" a guideline that isn't even policy, I would see that as disruptive, and in violation of ]. --] 21:42, 31 October 2006 (UTC)
	:::You're still simply calling the current guideline obsessive while using arguments for your viewpoint which frankly sound obsessive. You're saying you want consistency across Lost episode titles while simultaneously saying consistency across different TV episode conventions (Lost vs. Simpsons, etc.) is not important. Your first, third and fifth points above are almost identical - going towards some sort of lack of professionalism which I just can't buy at all (I can't see how any reader would care that some of the articles have (Lost episode) after them and some don't). Your second point goes just as much for most other subjects (I know I'm repeating myself but do you think I write an article about a baseball player without ever referencing any of his teammates or opponents? Should I put (baseball player) on the end of each one just in case two of them are named Smith and Jones and would need disambiguation?). The watchlist issue can be solved easily - prune your watchlist if you only want to maintain certain articles. —] (]) 21:59, 31 October 2006 (UTC)
	::::BTW, I actually find disambiguated titles helpful - and using them arbitrarily would completely diffuse that helpfulness. Disambiguated titles are an instant indicator that there are other articles and subjects which are similar and lets me - as a reader - simply remove the (whatever) part of the title and quickly see what other articles are named similarly. In the case of Lost episodes, it would be a quick way to find what the episode name is referring to. When I run across an instance where the article without the (whatever) just redirects back to the article ''with'' (whatever), that's obnoxious to me! For an inexperienced user who isn't familiar with redirects, that could send them into a very frustrating circular loop. "I remove the (whatever) and I just keep coming to the article with the (whatever)!" Talk about unprofessional... it almost looks like a bug in the system. —] (]) 22:04, 31 October 2006 (UTC)

	:::::Exactly, Wiki-Knight, and that's one of my points, frankly. Still, I fear this may not be getting either side very far. I mean, the excessive dabbers can argue for their perceived pros and we can denounce their practices with our perceived cons, but is any side right? Is either side actually acknowledging or diffusing the others' argument? I'm just beginning to wonder if discussion isn't pointless...]; ]. 22:27, 31 October 2006 (UTC)
	::::::Well it's certainly getting repetitive anyway. To me, it would take a very convincing argument to overturn such a longstanding guideline and I'm not hearing anything anywhere near convincing. I can't shake the feeling that this exact argument went on three or four years ago and is how the guideline came to be in the first place - and it will probably be repeated again every so often. Can't wait... :( —] (]) 22:32, 31 October 2006 (UTC)

	Should one of the disambiguation examples be adopted, there is also the problem of series which are named identically but came out at different times. I can think of only one series this applies to, and that is Battlestar Galactica. Currently, for example, we have ] and ], both using the pre-emptive disambiguation naming convention, except that the former is from the original 1978 series and the latter from the 2004 remake. Only ] is disambiguated any further because that episode title occurs in both versions. My own personal suggestion, beyond eliminating pre-emptive disambiguation, is for the above examples to become, respectively, ] and ]. Note that I am not a big fan of making double parenthethis in article names, which is why I did not put them around the years, but if this is an issue, perhaps a hyphen instead? --] 23:41, 31 October 2006 (UTC)

	:Either way there's going to be ambiguity. I'd recommend listing all ambiguous titles with the year of the series for clarity. On the unlikely chance that excessive dabbing wins, add the years to them all. ]; ]. 00:23, 1 November 2006 (UTC)
	:Unless the excessive dabbing wins the year should only be added when necessary, because an episodes in both had the same title. The disambiguation is only for Misplaced Pages to have separate file names, it's not for people to search for a particular topic, but separate to similar topics from each other. ] 00:32, 1 November 2006 (UTC)
	::This is another very nice example of why ''not'' to disambiguate unless necessary. When you do, you're just categorizing - and Misplaced Pages already has categorizing functionality. —] (]) 00:52, 1 November 2006 (UTC)

	I see the majory argument for using disambiguation is consistency. On the same principal, having all TV series using the same title format (either disambiguation or no disambiguation) is also very important in terms of consistency. Which means doing massive numbers of moves one way or the other. May as well be no disambiguation because it seems like most TV series do not have the disambiguation.

	Also, can someone change the poll questions around? The way they're formatting now is confusing. The "opposse" sections are not needed. A vote for support in one of the three options shows opposse to the other two. Right now, there're people voting support for more than one option. And some people voting oppose on the two options they don't support, and some people not.

	Have either just three options and people show support for one of the three. Or have two questions, the first addressing whether we need disambiguation. And the second for what type of disambiguation to use (for people who are pro-disambiguation). --] 05:15, 1 November 2006 (UTC)


	===Poll changes===
	I'm not sure who changed/refactored the poll questions, but I now find that I have my name under an item that I do not wish to vote for. "disambiguate only when necesary, and then disambiguate with ''(SeriesName episode)''" is NOT the same as "disambiguate all with ''(SeriesName episode)''". Of course there have been so many edits and changes to the page since then, I don't want to attempt to change them back and risk doing the same thing to someone else. All I can suggest is everyone CHECK their votes! -- ] 02:29, 1 November 2006 (UTC)

	:Elonka seems to have been the one to change it . I thought it was clear that we were discussion two separate issues, to disambig only when necessary, and what disambig title to use. I too found myself under as section that said "always add" which is '''NOT''' what I voted for. I've changed the sections back and removed the "oppose" sections because they're redundant to the "support" section of "Disambig only when necessary".

	:Now I know that I did make a change to the poll, but that was after some discussion and the change didn't change the meaning to people's votes. At this point we know what people support, but some who are opposed might have to re-sign under the "oppose" of the first part. This is different than actually changing what a person supports.

	:Are we clear on this are do we have to start over? I'm ''really'' hoping that this is clear now and we can just keep moving forward with collecting information, but if anyone feels strongly enough then we should restart the whole thing. -- ] 05:46, 1 November 2006 (UTC)

	::I'm afraid that I may have added to the confusion in an earlier attempt to clarify things. I thought that the three options were meant to be "disambiguate only as needed", "always add (seriesname)" and "always add (seriesname episode)", and tried to clarify the titles accordingly. I apologize if that was an error. —] <small>(] • ])</small> 06:42, 1 November 2006 (UTC)

	:::It's definitely '''not''' simple, but here's how I think the poll is supposed to work as it is/was—depending on the edits made after/during this post—at 08:00, 1 November 2006 (UTC): the first part "disambiguate only when necessary" contains support and oppose votes. The "Oppose" stands for the "always disambiguate" votes. Right now, the "oppose" side is not fully represented as the system used to be a list of three separate policies, not two separate debates.

	:::Voting for either "<series>" or "<series> ep" does '''not''' mean you're voting to disambiguate always. It's only a vote for which of the two options to use, even if "disambiguate only whe necessary" wins.

	:::Currently, "dab when necessary" and "<series> ep" are both winning. Should this stay that way, the final result will be to follow the general pre-existing policy and '''always''' identify an article as being an "episode" of a series. ]; ]. 08:09, 1 November 2006 (UTC)

	::::I went ahead and added clarifiers to the poll itself. I tried to make my descriptions as neutral as possible, but if bias has slipped in, I call on others to fix it. ] 08:47, 1 November 2006 (UTC)

	====I'm confused====
	I'm confused now. Have you changed the poll to where if (like me) you favor preemptive dabing I have to ''oppose'' the first option and ''support'' the second option(which ever one I prefer)? If thats the case I think we need to start the voting over and re-inform people, as I'm sure there are lots of people who came in here, made their choice and left nary to return again. Essentially scewing the vote. To be honest I think the poll was started prematurely anyway before the options were fully discussed. --<small><span style="-moz-border-radius: 5px; border: solid 2px #F98A2F; background-color: #FFF; color=#5994C5">] \| ] \| ]</span></small> 16:48, 1 November 2006 (UTC)
	:I have changed the format very slightly and clarified the headers to try to reduce this confusion. I don't want cause trouble, though, so someone please feel free to revert these changes if you think it's out of line. Once we determine an acceptible format for the poll (I agree, Argash, maybe we started the poll a little soon), I volunteer to help send messages to previous voters, asking them to return and confirm that their opinions are accurately recorded. --] 17:41, 1 November 2006 (UTC)
	::I think it would have been good to clarify a format for the poll and stuck with it, instead of changing it so many times, muddling the consistency of the votes. I believe several of the votes for the disambig appendages are meant as oppose votes for the first option, per the original poll format; it ''would'' be good if the current voters could be notified of the new format. And if the format could stay static now. ] 17:49, 1 November 2006 (UTC)
	:::The last revision before the poll was changed is . Here is a list of everyone who had voted before the poll was changed: ], ], ], ], ], ], ], ], ], ], ], ], ], ], ], ]. They should all be notified on their talk pages that the poll has changed slightly and that they should double check their vote to make sure it corresponds to their actual preferences. ] 18:04, 1 November 2006 (UTC)
	::::For whatever reason this didn't occur to me before, but I think that the previous voters who only voted support on the current "first poll" should be notified that they can also vote on the second items (which disambig to use "only when necessary"). ] 19:04, 1 November 2006 (UTC)
	:::::Speaking as someone in the list above, count me as an "I don't care" to the second question. —] (]) 19:19, 1 November 2006 (UTC)

	:::::: I'm not sure that the poll can even be salvaged at this point, it's been changed so much. I have reworded things to indicate the way that I ''thought'' was our intention at the beginning of the poll. In the meantime, I think that it's important that we continue talking about this, as this matter is obviously not going to be solved by polling alone. --] 20:28, 1 November 2006 (UTC)
	:::::::Your rewording has now caused people's ideas to be invalidated from after the change. There are actually two things that need to be discussed. I still consider the word episode superfluous when the disambiguation is necessary, unless there is further conflict, and I should be able to voice that opinion as well as not adding superfluous disambiguation in the first place. I am very much against using article titles in the way that categories are intended to work. Marking an article as an episode of a particular series is a job for categories, not the titles. ] 20:36, 1 November 2006 (UTC)

	:::::::The poll has actually only changed once, and other poll changes have been reverted. After I had made the first change I noted that people who wanted to oppose "disambig when necessary" would need to re-sign under the new section, but all existing votes would not change their support meaning. The only thing that would be lost is how many people directly oppose "disambig when necessary", so that would be the only data we would have to "recover". The other (now reverted) changes, on the other hand, change much more than that and really make a mess of everything. As long as we are able to contact everyone who wishes to be counted as opposing "disambig when necessary" then all other data will be true. -- ] 21:05, 1 November 2006 (UTC)
	::::::::The second polling option looks like it should be about what disambiguation method should be used, but then the discription says that I would be supporting that some tv series should be an exception to the disambiguate only when necessary. I would like to support disambiguation by (NameofSeries) when possible and (NameofSeries episode) only to avoid further confusion. I just want to be sure that that is the idea I'm getting across when I put my name on something. ] 22:20, 1 November 2006 (UTC)
	:::::::::What was done subsequent to my previous comment was exactly what I was talking about; the polling format should stay static, as it invalidates users' votes and makes it very difficult to draw any legitimate conclusion from the poll. The previous format — prior to the last "reversion" — was a good one, which seemed to be understood and followed, as far as I can tell. I agree with Jay32183's comments as well. ] 23:05, 1 November 2006 (UTC)
	:::::::::: First: They're not votes. This is not a vote. This is what's called a poll. See ]. Second: The polling format has most definitely not stayed static. Here's what it looked like at the beginning, when we listed the various options, along with pro's and con's: , but at this point, I think it's pretty well FUBAR. One possible way to handle it now, is that we close the poll, and proceed with discussion about the core issue (whether or not there can be flexibility in how television episodes are named) to see if we can find a meeting of the minds. We can also discuss a new set of poll questions that we all agree with ahead of time, rather than constantly changing them on the fly as has been going on. I am still willing to continue to discuss this issue in good faith, to try and find a consensus solution. I think that there's an important point in ] which states, "''Guidelines are not set in stone and should be treated with common sense and the occasional exception.''" Which is what my own position has been, is that the ''Star Trek'' episodes have been a clear and stable exception to ] rules, and that it makes sense to make an exception for the ''Lost'' articles as well, especially since the majority of people at ] already agreed on how episode titles were to be handled. Note that I'm not saying that the method which ''Lost'' uses should be enforced on ''all'' television programs -- it makes sense to me to allow the editors that are most involved with a set of articles, to figure out the best way of handling those articles. I don't think anyone is here because they want to damage Misplaced Pages. Please, we need to assume ] on the part of everyone involved. Can we find a way to discuss this issue, that doesn't involve a black and white polarized "Right and wrong" debate? Is there no room for compromise? --] 00:13, 2 November 2006 (UTC)
	:::::::::::If we're talking about guidelines as ''descriptive'' of what actually happens on Misplaced Pages, rather than being ''prescriptive'' of what we think should happen, then "letting the group of editors who work on articles for each television series" is the existing guideline. The ''Star Trek'' editors decided a while back to put parenthetical suffixes on all episode articles. The ''Doctor Who'' editors, by contrast, decided to follow the general Misplaced Pages guideline, and disambiguate only when necessary. If we can't reach a new consensus on this page, then ] should be amended to describe what the ''actual'' practice is.

	:::::::::::However, I don't think that we've reached that point yet. In fact, I think that we may be able to reach a consensus to support the guideline as it currently stands — that is, to follow general Misplaced Pages guidelines, and disambiguate only when necessary. What I'd like to hear is whether there is any way to follow the existing guidelines and still address the concerns of those who'd rather have articles in a given category look "consistent". We can keep "varying by series" as a fall-back option, if consensus proves impossible, but let's try to see if there's room for compromise short of that. OK? —] <small>(] • ])</small> 00:26, 2 November 2006 (UTC)
	:::::::::::I referred to it as a poll; your reply comes off as rather confrontational. I was not saying that the poll had stayed static, but requesting that it stay static rather than constantly changing as it had been. ] 00:56, 2 November 2006 (UTC)

	In response to Elonka's last comment in this section: You're right, it's a poll, not a vote. With that in mind, we are just collecting information from this poll. With the current format, changed as it is, we can still say there is reasonable credibility for the data collected. We won't be ending this poll right away, and that will give all editors enough time to re-list an oppose "motion" under the oppose section for "disambig only when necessary". Since it's not a vote, and we're just collecting information, I don't really see the need to restart the poll (but still let it be open for at least a few more days, if not a week or so).

	Second, the claim that the disambig titles were apart of the Lost episode mediation has been '''really''' bugging me. It's completely false. ], ], and then the message that the mediator posted about the outcome to the top of ] .

	Third, yes, guidelines should be treated with common sense, and exceptions should be made where reasonable. We all agree on that. However, what many of us are saying is that you are not presenting a reasonable exception, or even one that could be considered common sense. Flexibility can be a good thing, but without a good reason it becomes a problem. -- ] 03:00, 2 November 2006 (UTC)

	===This is not a vote===
	I am actually amazed by how many people involved in this discussion, who think they know disambiguation rules backwards and forwards, are completely oblivious to how wrongheaded the idea of "voting" is on Misplaced Pages. ''This is not a vote''. This is a ''discussion''. This is ''not'' a "majority rules" situation. This is not a case of trying to find a "winner" or a "loser". The poll serves only to get a rough idea of where people stand on a complex issue. What it is showing me, is that we do not have a clear consensus, and that we need to keep talking about this, in good faith. I encourage everyone to eliminate the words "vote", "policy", "winning" and "losing" from their vocabulary, as these words are not helpful. Please instead ''very carefully'' read ], ] (where it specifically talks about how "voting" on guidelines is a common error), and ]. --] 20:19, 1 November 2006 (UTC)
	:This is the typical mantra of someone whose idea is not gaining much support. How much longer do you propose this discussion should continue? And how many more times after this? Can we please draw the line somewhere? This is the 3rd page and like the 8th or 9th section I've posted a message regarding the same subject. Attrition, attrition, attrition. —] (]) 20:30, 1 November 2006 (UTC)
	::My thoughts exactly. I think it's very clear at this point the consensus is to disambig only when necessary. We can keep going and keep discussing, we can even restart the poll, I won't object to such things, but.. yeah.. we really don't need to. -- ] 21:00, 1 November 2006 (UTC)
	:::I'll object to restarting the poll. Vehemently. I'm trying to ] here but I'm sensing a deliberate stalling tactic being employed. —] (]) 21:16, 1 November 2006 (UTC)
	:I followed Elonka's suggestion, and re-read ] with this discussion in mind. I was struck by this sentence:
	::''However, when supermajority voting is used, it should be seen as a process of 'testing' for consensus, rather than reaching consensus.''
	:I don't think that we're there yet, but I do think that we're ''heading'' towards a consensus that ''as a general rule'', television episode article names should follow the same disambiguation guidelines as other article names. The question is whether there is a way to keep this as a general guideline, while still acknowledging the concerns of those who feel that "consistency" is an important value in article naming. That's how we'll turn this into a genuine consensus. Anyone got any ideas? —] <small>(] • ])</small> 00:16, 2 November 2006 (UTC)
	:: Thanks Josiah, I agree with you that the ''general'' guideline is a good one, but it should allow flexibility for those cases where it's leading to something inconsistent. The wording that I recommended adding to the Naming conventions page under "Episodes" would result in a paragraph that says, "''Where an article is created about a single episode, add the series name in parentheses if there are other articles by the same name, e.g. ], but ]. Certain shows such as ] and ] may use different formats. When in doubt, it is best to make new episode articles consistent with the practice that is already in existence for that program.''" How does that sound? --] 00:22, 2 November 2006 (UTC)
	:::We may end up there, but I'd still like us to try for a more — irony of ironies — ''consistent'' approach. A guideline that says "certain shows may use different formats" weakens itself, and I'd rather we had a guideline that could actually, y'know, ''guide''. That said, if we can't come to a stronger consensus, what you've proposed works as a ''descriptive'' guideline of what actually happens on Misplaced Pages, and I'd be OK with it as a fall-back position. —] <small>(] • ])</small> 00:33, 2 November 2006 (UTC)
	::::Just to chime in - again - I don't think anyone here to simply reaffirm the current guideline. They're here to decide whether to apply the current guideline to the Lost episode articles. Let's please not suddenly say, "Oh well, I guess the guideline will stay the way it is - okay, so let's see if anyone wants an exception for Lost". They don't. —] (]) 00:46, 2 November 2006 (UTC)

	I agree that it all seems pretty okay to me. I've made comments to those whose votes may been misinterpreted in hopes that they'll return to correct any perceived mistake. ]; ]. 22:00, 1 November 2006 (UTC)

	===My suggestion===
	Please forgive me but I have not read the 66 KB discussion thus far. I would suggest that disambiguation be done as necessary but "Title (series episode)" be created as a redirect regardless. My reason is simple: when writing episode lists or cross-linking episodes you can guarantee that you have not made an ambiguous link which can be absurdly prevalent when episodes have common names like Genesis (of which there are no less than 5 episodes named this). It is nigh impossible to auto-disambiguate a link and it is a much better visitor experience to skip through a redirect (which requires no extra work by the visitor) than to be faced with a dab page, or worse, the wrong article completely. Always having "Title (series episode)" whether it is the actual article or a redirect is the best choice from the perspective of a reader.

	So, as long as "Title (series episode)" gets me to the correct article...I don't care what is decided above. ] 00:26, 2 November 2006 (UTC)

	:This is a '''very''' good idea. I could support this: keep the ''article'' at the name that follows general Misplaced Pages guidelines, but ''always'' create a redirect with "Title (series episode)". Is this the compromise solution I was looking for above? If so — wow, that was quick. —] <small>(] • ])</small> 00:35, 2 November 2006 (UTC)

	::I kinda figured that was a given... —] (]) 00:48, 2 November 2006 (UTC)

	::I have officially been made to feel dumb! you sir are a genius! This would be a perfect solution --<small><span style="-moz-border-radius: 5px; border: solid 2px #F98A2F; background-color: #FFF; color=#5994C5">] \| ] \| ]</span></small> 00:49, 2 November 2006 (UTC)
	:::I think this is the way the Lost articles have always been - or maybe that's just because of the move battles that have been going on. —] (]) 00:50, 2 November 2006 (UTC)

	:I like this idea as well. Depending on whether the name is unique or not:
	:Unique: '''EpisodeTitle''' is article; '''EpisodeTitle (SeriesName)''', '''EpisodeTitle (episode)''' and '''EpisodeTitle (SeriesName episode)''' are all redirects
	:Non-unique: '''EpisodeTitle (SeriesName episode)'''* is article; '''EpisodeTitle''' is disambig; '''EpisodeTitle (SeriesName)'''* and '''EpisodeTitle (episode)''' are redirects.
	:<nowiki>*</nowiki> - Swap these two around if consensus goes that way. -- ] 02:02, 2 November 2006 (UTC)

	'''Comment''' Always making the redirect would solve one of the problems claimed by the people wanting to deviate from the existing policy, and redirects are cheap. Even though I think pre-emptive dabbing is bad, making a redirect for any reasonable search term is good. Within articles readers will never see the dabbing because the links will be piped, so the consistant look will be there on tables and nav boxes. The reasoning behind minimizing the dabbing is to keep Misplaced Pages elegant and simple. Seeing no dab link to a dab just seems weird, but dab redirecting to no dab is definitely done, because recoding the pages that link to a redirect requires more server space than letting a redirect sit there. ] 04:35, 2 November 2006 (UTC)

	:: The reason that we can't just do this with redirects, is because the title that displays at the top of the page, or in a category, is the "primary" title. To explain why this would be a problem, look here: ]. This category has been stable for months, and I think it looks clean and professional. But what's important to understand, is that some of the people in the discussion on this page want to attack the articles in this category, and move them around to different styles of titles, through a misplaced notion of "enforcing" disambiguation guidelines. My own feeling is that the ''Star Trek'' category looks just fine the way it is and doesn't need "fixing.". Further, I believe that it makes sense to have wording in the Naming conventions guidelines that says that for ''some'' shows, it makes sense to use consistent suffixes. In fact, that's what the guideline ''did'' say since February 2006, until in September when Ned Scott went in out of the blue and vandalized it without consensus., and then tried to insist that re-adding the information was what required consensus! So now, we have this longwinded "new" discussion here, which is being further confused by a few editors who are posting multiple times per day and attacking anyone who disagrees with them, so that they can force through a "majority" to justify disruption of the ''Star Trek'' categories. This is a violation of ], and I wish more people would see it for the disruption that it is. --] 06:41, 2 November 2006 (UTC)

	::: There is more to Misplaced Pages than just articles about ''Star Trek'' episodes. Sure, all the entries in the category page have the same parenthetical disambiguation, satisfying some bizarre fetish for things to line up on category pages, but it makes Misplaced Pages as a whole ''more'' inconsistent, hard to use, and unpredictable, not less. You should consider the what's best for the project as a whole, and not what's best for the little corner that you care about. What Misplaced Pages needs are articles whose titles follow a consistent, project-wide system for disambiguation, not a warren of exceptions and loopholes that allow a group of obsessive fans to pack articles' titles with extraneous information where the only tangible benefit is merely an ''aesthetic'' one. ] 06:54, 2 November 2006 (UTC)
	::::I agree, and I didn't know "we" were "only" discussing ''Star Trek'' episodes. ] 06:59, 2 November 2006 (UTC)

	:::::I also agree with Nohat. Furthermore, coming into the discussion when I did, I don't see any evidence of bad faith on anyone's part. And actually, whether one user may or may not be motivated by bad faith isn't really material to the discussion: a fairly wide spectrum of Wikipedians is now participating in the conversation, and that's a ''good'' thing. I, for one, have no desire to cause disruption on ''Star Trek'' pages. The Star Trek WikiProject has been notified of this discussion, and its members are welcome in this discussion. Personally, I don't think we need to start moving pages unless we get a clear consensus; indeed, moving pages ''now'' might be a violation of ]. However, a broad discussion among Wikipedians — which this is — is not. Let's ] and get on with working towards consensus, shall we? —] <small>(] • ])</small> 07:04, 2 November 2006 (UTC)
	::::::I really cannot see how the Star Trek point could be considered a sound argument. Misplaced Pages does encourage "common sense" exceptions to guidelines, but "I want to be different" is not a common sense reason. The exception is being made on the assumption that the existing policy has no purpose, but it does have a purpose. That purpose is to keep article titles simple, so that readers don't have difficulty getting into the article. No sound reason has been presented '''at all''' why any exception should be made against that reasoning in episode articles. Readers should not be able to get all the information they need to know out of a title, if they could then there would be no articles, only titles. Pointing out that no one complained until recently is definitely not a good point; people are syaing something now, deal with it now. Also, there was never any reason given as to why Star Trek was an exception to begin with, Ned was completely right to remove that from the guideline page. It confused me the first time I read that. I thought "What makes Star Trek so special?" and it turns out the answer is nothing. There's no reason Star Trek should be treated differently as there's nothing different about it from other tv series that makes the existing guideline not act exactly the same. ] 20:11, 2 November 2006 (UTC)
	:::Page moves do ''not'' make something "unstable". I started to move pages per these guidelines, something I feel is totally acceptable even with the current discussion. To get as upset as you are over this is far more disruptive than the moves themselves. Did those page moves hurt anyone? I just can't understand how you feel this is hurting anything, at all. Where is the great injustice, the disruption, the negative side effect? I checked for double redirects on all of those page moves, so in all reality... nothing "bad" happened at all. Doing nothing does not make something stable, and doing something does not make something unstable. The discussion on this very page continues to back this all up, and you've failed to show how this is harmful or disruptive.

	:::Second, calling my edits vandalism is immature, rude, and downright disrespectful. I find this highly ironic coming after your absurd ]. I've fully explained my reasons for the change, and many other users on this talk page have agreed that the Star Trek example was a bad addition. Again, you attack me personally by calling my efforts "attacks". Who am I attacking? What do I have to personally gain from any of this? This is so bizarre, before this I thought of you as a really nice editor and wouldn't have thought something like this would become a dispute. You dug through my edit history to yell at me for using the word "fuck" in the edit summary for ]. Why can't you just discuss this without trying to drag people into the mud? -- ] 07:02, 2 November 2006 (UTC)

	::::Ned, even though I agree that the ''Star Trek'' example was a bad precedent, I personally would not advise making those moves now. We're heading towards a clear consensus, but we're not quite there yet, and it would be better to wait until everyone is either on board with this, or at least knows that it's coming. Just my 2¢ worth. —] <small>(] • ])</small> 07:13, 2 November 2006 (UTC)

	:::::I had started the page moves when I thought this discussion was going to blow over, and I mean no offense to anyone when I say that. The pages were being moved ''before'' this RfC was taking place and the discussion I was in was still Lost-based. Also ] is not the right cat, you mean to talk about ] (ironically, there is one article without a disambig title in Voyager, done by some other user back in May). I've clearly stopped after seeing that ... well.. we'd be here for a while. -- ] 07:18, 2 November 2006 (UTC)

	::::::Sorry, Ned — didn't mean to rebuke you for something you weren't doing. It's hard to see page moves, since they don't show up in contribs and you've got to go to the log page, or check the individual article. I ] that Elonka was accurate in her description of what was happening. ''Mea culpa.'' —] <small>(] • ])</small> 07:26, 2 November 2006 (UTC)

	::::::: I don't want to make it look like this entire discussion is "Ned's fault," but for the record, a history of Ned's page moves can be seen here: . He has been engaging in multiple non-consensus moves on both the ''Lost'' articles and ''Star Trek'' articles, along with edit wars, to the point where the ''Lost'' guidelines page is protected , progress after a unanimous mediation resolution has been stalled, and, as we can see, there's a major firestorm here at WP:NC-TV. Aside from the multiple non-consensus moves, a further look at Ned's contrib history shows that he's been going through redirect pages and blanking them and then re-creating them a few seconds later so as to "lock" his moves, making them undoable except with an admin's intervention. And since Ned brought it up, yes, by all means take a look at ], where confirmation can be seen that multiple users have been telling him to calm down, and to stop the disruption and incivility. --] 08:17, 2 November 2006 (UTC)
	::::::::Piling on more personal attacks really does make your point so much better. I've already linked to that section on my talk page, and I believe it speaks for itself. Three editors who disagreed with me in disputes decided to pile on. I invite anyone to actually look into those discussions and they will clearly see that being civil really hasn't been an issue. My dispute with Matthew was removing a "goal" from ] that aimed at making episode guides, a violation of WP:NOT. See the edit history for the exchange of words and see if it was uncivil. The other user, ], was in a dispute with multiple editors over a fair use debate on ]. If you would like to point out where I was uncivil with them then please do.
	::::::::The little revert war on the Lost episode guideline page wasn't really the best thing to do, but you were just as much apart of that as I was. Again, I continue to point out specifically, the mediation '''NEVER ONCE COMMENTED ON NAMING CONVENTIONS FOR EPISODE ARTICLES'''. It was not apart of the mediation, and it was not the results of a consensus. How many times do I have to repeat that?
	::::::::I've already explained myself about the Star Trek articles. And, as I've pointed out, I'm not the only one who's moved those articles, and I'm clearly not the only one who thinks their naming is in error. I only moved those articles when I thought this issue was just being dragged out and would blow over. Since this has become a bigger debate I have not moved any Star Trek or Lost articles, yielding to the discussion.
	::::::::I did intentionally move articles and then edit the redirect to prevent an undo. Again, wasn't probably the best thing to do at the time, but in all fairness '''' to '''all''' the other articles I didn't touch. As it stand now no Lost episode article can be freely moved back or forth, a childish move that both of us made in the heat of a debate. I apologies for that, I was wrong, but I won't take your blame too.
	::::::::I'm done defending myself. I've made mistakes in how I approached this dispute, probably because I didn't even think highly of the dispute. None the less, the arguments and statements presented are still completely valid, no matter how flawed an editor I may or may not be. When you get into a debate that (for some strange reason) gets this heated you will find people like Elonka who will try to drag your name through the mud just because they disagree with you. Weeks before this, while I was still on Elonka's good side, she gave me a barnstar. I don't really think my editing habits have changed much in that time, but her attitude towards me sure did change when I disagreed. -- ] 09:43, 2 November 2006 (UTC)
	Okay, it sounds like we're all reaching a group hug point here so let's let this particular thread die before it gets nastier. Let's leave all of the articles and redirects the way they are for now in the hopes this whole discussion comes to some conclusion (if such a thing is possible). It's beneficial to have them all locked at the moment - and I'd unlock them if I thought otherwise. In cases like this, two or three people always feel the urge to declare the discussion concluded and all of a sudden a wild move war breaks out. Ordinarily, I'd come down on intentionally blocking page moves - and I will be happy to unblock them myself when this discussion is concluded - but, in this case, it turns out to be helpful. —] (]) 12:00, 2 November 2006 (UTC)

	: Wknight94, I realize that you are a fairly new admin, so I just wanted to doublecheck: You do realize that using your admin tools to get involved in any way in this issue, would be unethical, and a complete violation of ]? You are welcome to participate in this discussion as a normal editor, and you're even welcome to get angry and disagree -- but as soon as you start threatening to take advantage of your admin access to push your own agenda, you would be out of line. I sincerely hope that you are not considering this, and that you will abide by the answer that you gave when your adminship was being debated a couple months ago, where you yourself said, ''I don't believe in admin's using admin powers to resolve their own disputes. Even when the powers are used appropriately, it gives the appearance of impropriety.'' Whichever way this discussion goes, for or against your point of view, I would hope that you would realize that it would be better for any necessary actions to be taken by a completely noninvolved admin. --] 17:53, 2 November 2006 (UTC)
	::I'm not the one intentionally editing redirects solely to block page moves. I'm also not the one shifting the same discussion from location to location in the hopes of shaking the opposition. You should probably leave the Misplaced Pages ethics lectures to someone else. —] (]) 18:07, 2 November 2006 (UTC)
	Uh...iIf I may inject here, creating a redirect doesn't pervent a move to that title. For example, the article "] can still be moved to the title ] or the title ]. In the case of the former option, ] was created as a redirect and only has the edit of creation in its history. Wikimedia setup allows for this to be easily overwritten in a move. Similarly, ], the latter option, has only the edit of a move from that title to ]. In both cases, the end result is that an article can still move into a title held by a redirect with only one edit in its history. ]; ]. 19:34, 2 November 2006 (UTC)
	:Yep. And yet somehow, each of the current Lost episode redirects happen to have a second minor edit to them, e.g. , , ... But I'm sure someone whose user page says they wish to be an admin someday would never do that on purpose so let's ]. —] (]) 19:57, 2 November 2006 (UTC)

	== Shows that they are part of a series?! ==

	Sorry but I have to ask about saying disambiguating all of the titles "shows that they are part of a seires (sic)". The only place the disambiguated names would all be seen at once is in the category — but, by definition, just being in the category shows they are in a series! Folks in opposition to question 1 above apparently want to use disambiguation to do categorization. —] (]) 03:18, 2 November 2006 (UTC)
	:I agree with you there. in a similar vein, insisting that the names always contain "(SeriesName episode)" is like showing that the episodes cannot stand alone by themselves, they must be regarded as part of the whole. Does this mean they should just all be merged into "SeriesName (season x)?" There are sites out there like http://www.lostpedia.com which we could just link to. Of course it would be sad to see all the effort put into the articles to disappear.
	:This is one of the good things about ] - due to the nature of the show, there is an episode called "2 p.m. - 3 p.m." every season, and that episode is intrinsically linked to the rest of the episodes of that series. As a result, 24 episodes do not have individual articles, just season articles, and everyone seems happy with that! -- ] 04:11, 2 November 2006 (UTC)
	:: I am willing to bet that most people don't have a dang clue what an individual episode is named in a long running TV series. Can you name all of the simpsons episdoes by heart?? I am a huge fan amd can only name a few.. Take a look at this from a readers stand point, rather then an editors.. Your wandering through the episodes and the titles all have (Series) after them, until you hit one. You would be disoriented for a moment as you wonder if you accidently clicked something else. You figure out you didn't but you would be mad that there wasn't consistancy with in the article group. I am just trying to make wikipedia easier to use for the readers..] 09:47, 2 November 2006 (UTC)
	:::I don't think it works like that. What we're trying to say is that the articles just are not "floating around" like this. Most readers will find the episode article via a List of episodes article, a category, or a direct link from another article. This is how the vast majority of us come to such articles, and the actual title of the article won't change this process at all (for the reader). -- ] 09:52, 2 November 2006 (UTC)
	::::Exactly. It's the "wandering through" part where your argument breaks down. —] (]) 11:39, 2 November 2006 (UTC)
	:::::Also, there are plenty of other "series" on Misplaced Pages which are not indicated as such in their articles' titles. If a reader were paging through the James Bond novels, they would go from ] to ], to ], to ]. Readers of the ] series would go from ] to ] to ] to ]. A reader looking at albums by the Beatles goes from ] to ] to ] to ]. Nobody worries about whether such a reader would be "disoriented" by the lack of consistency of the members of these series.

	:::::The fact that most people don't know the names of television episodes is immaterial, as I've said before. The job of a Misplaced Pages article's title isn't to provide context for the article's subject: the ''article'' does that. Nor is it to categorize them: the category system does that. The job of the title is to provide a file name that's clear, accurate, and unambiguous. Just because most readers won't know the names of episodes of ''The Simpsons'' is not an argument for moving ] to ]. —] <small>(] • ])</small> 20:28, 2 November 2006 (UTC)
	::::::Well said Josiah! -- ] 23:16, 2 November 2006 (UTC)
	::::::Exactly. — ] 16:35, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

	== Consensus? ==

	Okay, who wants to decide whether this discussion is concluded? We've had two reverts at ] today so folks are apparently getting antsy. The noise has died down a bit here too. I'm not going to be the one to do anything drastic (and I never intended to, Elonka) but this is a little nudge. :) —] (]) 17:57, 3 November 2006 (UTC)
	:Yep.. couldnt agree with you more.. definitly a consensus for the suffix {{emot\|:)}}. <small><font face="Tahoma">'''thanks'''/] ] ]</font></small> 18:05, 3 November 2006 (UTC)

	:I was just thinking the same thing, Wknight. I was trying to sum up the arguments for my own benefit, and came up with this:
	<blockquote>The solution '''must''':
	*Allow readers to easily find the article in question
	*Allow other readers to easily find other articles with the same name

	It would be '''preferrable''' to have a solution which:
	*Does not create an exception to ]
	*Allows linked lists of episodes to be formatted alike
	*Provides a predictable format for editors to use when creating links
	*Establishes a consistent naming convention which can be used by all TV shows

	It would be '''nice''' to have a solution which:
	*Provides series context within the article name
	*Causes episode articles to be named consistently in watchlists and category lists</blockquote>

	:In my mind, Cburnett's suggestion above meets all but the "it would be nice" criteria, and thus is the closest we've come to a consensus. I think it is extremely important for us to realize that we are attempting to create a ''guideline'' here, and as such, it would be perfectly appropriate for individual TV shows (Star Trek, Lost) to propose and adopt exceptions to it based on consensus among those shows' editors. It seems to me that those exceptions should be addressed and discussed on project pages for individual shows, and not here. --] ‹ <big>]\|]</big> › 18:17, 3 November 2006 (UTC)

	:: Great summary, Toby. --] 19:18, 3 November 2006 (UTC)
	:::There is a slight problem with what you've said about exceptions. Misplaced Pages recommends "common sense" exception. I want to do it differently is not a "common sense" exception. "Common sense" exceptions arise from special cases. There has been nothing to suggest that any tv series is a special case from the rest or that tv episode articles are a special case from any other article. Basically, you can't be deifferent for the sake of being different, especially when complaining about consistency. The redirects are a good solution to handle the editors' problem of not knowing which format each link should take. Consistency in linked lists was never a problem because all the links are piped anyway, same with navboxes. Finding of articles would come from other articles if readers did not already know the name of the episode, searching won't help. The "would be nice" things are things that are mostly selfish and overly obsessive. Categories don't need to be "pretty" and editors should know what's on their watchlists, not in the sense that anyone can name everything they are watching, but in the sense that if you see an article title they know what the article is. ] 19:35, 3 November 2006 (UTC)
	::::IMHO, this whole discussion should be carried over to the Lost case in particular. It was pretty clear from the discussion as well as notes leading up to the discussion that Lost was the series at issue here. Let's not use TobyRush's exception clause(s) above to jump back to the Lost discussion and start over. The ties between the two are obvious enough that starting over is not necessary. —] (]) 20:13, 3 November 2006 (UTC)
	:::::Regarding exceptions: I actually agree with you, Jay32183, and I didn't actually say anything about "I want to do it differently" vs. "common sense." If the editors of an individual TV show propose an exception to this guideline, there would need to be common-sense justification for that exception, and that should be sussed out in the good-faith discussion of the proposal. ] itself is a ] (not a policy), and my remarks above about exceptions were only meant to point out that TV:NC falls in the same category. In other words, if the Star Trek folks feel that they have a rationale for not following TV:NC, a consensus-building discussion should take place there. And since this is Misplaced Pages, we're all invited. :)
	:::::Regarding the "it would be nice" section: How about "Some editors think it would be nice to have a solution which:"? As I mentioned, these are the criteria which are ''not'' met by Cburnett's proposal. I, for one, am okay with that, especially if it means achieving consensus. --] ‹ <big>]\|]</big> › 20:17, 3 November 2006 (UTC)
	::::::My point about the "it would be nice" parts was that we don't need to go out of our way to meet those. If a decent proposal happened to, then great. But let's not go overboard. ] 20:23, 3 November 2006 (UTC)

	Although there is still vocal dissent from a few editors, I think that there is a broad consensus for Cburnett's suggestion. I think we're ready to put it on the page. —] <small>(] • ])</small> 20:52, 3 November 2006 (UTC)

	: I'm not comfortable with this being a recommendation for -all- episode articles. I think this is fine for something like ''Lost'' where a WikiProject is involved, but it's simply overkill for most cases. -- ] ] 21:04, 3 November 2006 (UTC)
	::I concur. For cases where few or none of the episodes would need dabbing (]), let's not make people feel they have no choice but create redirects - because that's what will happen. How about simply "Editors are free to create redirects with..."? —] (]) 21:16, 3 November 2006 (UTC)
	:::Right, no need to force it. But allowing it makes it easier for some editors. ] 21:24, 3 November 2006 (UTC)

	:::How about "Editors are encouraged to create redirects with..."? That way we're not suggesting it's mandatory, but we show that it is ''approved''. After all, redirects are cheap. —] <small>(] • ])</small> 21:26, 3 November 2006 (UTC)
	::::I can agree with that. That way editor's that need it, get it, and editors who don't, aren't forced to do any extra work. ] 21:40, 3 November 2006 (UTC)

	::::: Josiah, thank you very much for your efforts here. However, I'm a bit confused as to what you mean when you say, "put it on the page." If you mean your summary that Toby listed above, I am fully in support. However, if you mean Cburnett's suggestion, I am not. Could you please clarify, so that we can wordsmith the parts that are causing confusion? Or if we'd like an example of proposed wording, my suggestion is that in the "Episodes" section, we expand the paragraph to say, "''Where an article is created about a single episode, add the series name in parentheses if there are other articles by the same name, e.g. ], but ]. Certain shows such as ] and ] may use different formats. When in doubt, it is best to make new episode articles consistent with the practice that is already in existence for that program.''" --] 21:44, 3 November 2006 (UTC)
	::::::I'm very much against this wording. It implies there is something special about Star Trek and Lost. The only evidence presented that they are special is that the editors don't like the guideline, which is not a common sense exception. If there were actually something special that made the naming covention not work properly, then an exception would make sense. ] 21:53, 3 November 2006 (UTC)

	::::::As I said above, I considered that to be an acceptable fallback position in case there was not sufficient consensus for a more general guideline. My reading of the discussion is that there is a broad consensus for Cburnett's suggestion, with only a few dissenters (notably, yourself and Matthew Fenton). There comes a time in any policy-building process when one must fish or cut bait; I judged that time to have come. I may have been too hasty, but I still think that there is quite broad support for Cburnett's compromise, as currently worded on the guideline page. It is not always possible to find a solution that is acceptable to ''all'' parties; I think that this one is as close as we're going to get. —] <small>(] • ])</small> 21:51, 3 November 2006 (UTC)
	:::::::A guideline that ends with "...but, if any single editor feels their case is different, they can feel free to shift back into free-for-all mode and ignore this guideline" is not a guideline. That's anarchy. Anarchy was clearly not the consensus here. —] (]) 21:57, 3 November 2006 (UTC)
	::::::The core of this whole dispute is to not have actual articles with disambig titles when disambig is not needed. Redirects are fine, but the article itself should only disambig when necessary. As it stands now Lost nor Star Trek have a rational reason to be exempt from this. We will not put in an exemption into this guideline for Lost or Star Trek at the very least. Elonka, you disagree with this, and it seems you will to your dying breath, but get over it. -- ] 21:58, 3 November 2006 (UTC)

	If it would help us to reach a more complete consensus, we could add a sentence like TobyRush suggested above. Another alternative could be:
	::''Some WikiProjects have previously established guidelines that encourage consistent use of disambiguating phrases. This guideline neither supercedes nor is superceded by these WikiProject guidelines.''
	How's that, Elonka? —] <small>(] • ])</small> 21:55, 3 November 2006 (UTC)
	:::This is actually what has gotten me so fusterated about this situation. The idea that a WikiProject with weak rational can make contradicting guidelines is a very bad idea. Again, I point out that this was never a consensus of WikiProject Lost or the mediation case about Lost episodes, but even if it was there's still not a valid reason for exception. -- ] 22:03, 3 November 2006 (UTC)
	:::: Josiah, I agree that sometimes consensus cannot get 100% approval, but I think it's important to ensure that we're at least trying for it. In other words, I don't think it's appropriate to start a thread and say, "We have consensus," and then two hours later make major guideline changes. We're obviously still discussing this issue, plus we also need to give other "infrequent" editors time to weigh in, rather than just listening to the voices of those who are posting multiple times per day. I would also point out that the above poll should not be given any "consensus" weight, since its wording was obviously being changed multiple times throughout the course of the poll.

	:::: What I would recommend, since this is obviously such a controversial issue, is that we agree on potential new wording for the guideline, and then present it as such, here on the talk page, with a new section entitled "Guideline addition/change". This is how I've seen other such major changes debated in other parts of Misplaced Pages. Then we let that discussion run for a week, and make sure everyone's had a chance to read it and think about it, and/or suggest wording changes. If we're all in agreement at the end of the week, then we put it into the guideline. If not, we can follow one of the other suggestions in ] or ].

	:::: Getting back to the suggested sentence, I would change it a bit so it doesn't just look like a grandfather clause. How about: "''Some WikiProjects may have separate guidelines for a different style of episode title, such as the consistent use of disambiguating phrases even when not absolutely required. This guideline neither supercedes nor is superceded by these WikiProject guidelines, and changes to the titles of those WikiProject's episodes should be debated within those respective communities.''" --] 22:19, 3 November 2006 (UTC)
	:::::Agian, you're creating a special case where no special case exists, you just aren't naming your special cases. In order for a common sense exception to occur there has to be a common sense distinction. In terms of the existing policy being applied to the title of any individual episode article, all individual episode articles are identical. Common sense dictates that identical situations be treated the same. ] 22:23, 3 November 2006 (UTC)
	::::::(edit conflict) At the very least, a clause would be needed saying that such decisions need to be made outside of the particular project. Otherwise, you're encouraging the formation of splinter factions and mini-Wikipedias. You end up with ridiculous things like every article related to the band Heart has a heart character in the article name because a bunch of overzealous Heart fans had a vote one day. As much as I hate the "professional" word being thrown around here, the "professional" look of Misplaced Pages is dependant on the overall Misplaced Pages following given guidelines which don't include project-specific exceptions like what exists here. —] (]) 22:22, 3 November 2006 (UTC)
	:::::::I disagree, Wknight... I think those decisions should be made within the project in question. There are no closed clubs on Misplaced Pages; if you found that the Heart fans were pulling this kind of stunt, you could make yourself part of the discussion toward revising the Heart guidelines to be match the standard practice. (And call me... I'll support you!)
	:::::::That said, though, I don't really see any reason to talk about ''any'' exceptions on TV:NC; the universal rule is that ''justifiable'' exceptions to guidelines are always okay. It seems to me that there needs to be a consensus-seeking discussion over at the Lost and Star Trek WikiProjects; if those discussions reach consensus that the exceptions are justified, then it can be posted on their respective NC pages. --] ‹ <big>]\|]</big> › 22:59, 3 November 2006 (UTC)
	::::::::But I don't have any Heart articles on my watchlist. Do you? For all we know, that discussion is already underway and only Heart fans know about it! —] (]) 23:31, 3 November 2006 (UTC)
	:::::::::I don't have any on my watchlist either. But it seems to me that Misplaced Pages (pretty successfully, I might add) operates on the principle that there are more editors striving to maintain the standards than those who would wish otherwise. So given the number of people who ''do'' have Heart articles on their watchlist, at least one of them should find that stunt a bad idea and call attention to it.
	:::::::::And, by the way, I just ] ] ] ] ] ]. :) --] ‹ <big>]\|]</big> › 23:43, 3 November 2006 (UTC)

	:::::::::: Heh. And yes, Toby brings up a good point about the lack of closed discussions. In my experience, Misplaced Pages is pretty good at self-regulating itself. For example, earlier this year there were concerns that decisions were being made at the "Polish Wikipedian notice board" (especially about naming conventions) that seemed to go against other Misplaced Pages guidelines such as ]. That particular group had organized themselves into a consistent voting block, and were working their way through dozens of different articles around Misplaced Pages, moving them to non-English names. This became a dispute for awhile, until it was pointed out that ''anyone'' could participate in the discussions on that board, not just the Polish members of Misplaced Pages. So other editors from different points of view added the noticeboard to their watchlists, and the "voting block" nature of the group got evened out. In terms of this discussion about television episode naming conventions, though my own initial interest in this discussion was via the ''Lost'' articles, at this point, I'm honestly trying to come up with guidelines that can be helpful all over Misplaced Pages. As Misplaced Pages grows (and we're at around the 1.465 million article mark, last I checked, and doubling every six months), there are going to be thousands of television-related articles over the place. Many of them can and should use similar formats, yes, but every so often there are going to be reasons for good faith exceptions, and this Guideline should be written to allow for that. Ultimately, I keep in mind that the vast majority of editors working on their separate sections of Misplaced Pages, are good faith individuals who are here to improve Misplaced Pages, not to damage it. Misplaced Pages will grow more smoothly if guidelines are used for their intention, which is to give guidance, rather than to rigidly enforce rules which may not make sense in all situations. And lastly, yes, if any subgroup of editors started insisting on putting little hearts in article titles, give me a call, too, as I agree that that would be a Bad Thing, and I'd happily participate in that discussion to throw in my $0.02. :) --] 00:06, 4 November 2006 (UTC)
	:::::::::::All guidelines are like that by default, and there is no need to note that reasonable exception can be made to anything. That being said, a good deal of this debate was done in a Lost-specific discussion, and not a lot has changed. If you want us to change talk pages, then ok, but it won't really change anything. And there's no such thing as a "good faith exceptions", only reasonable exceptions. Exceptions need to have ''reasons'' and shouldn't be just assumed. I made that mistake originally by assuming that there had to be a good reason behind the Star Trek example, which was why I was originally in support of your position. Then I find out that it was added for no reason at all. Unless we can put such an example in a reasonable context then it shouldn't be included. As far as Lost goes, there has yet to be a reasonable argument to support "always disambig", but there has been reasonable argument to follow existing naming conventions.

	:::::::::::This isn't a power move or anything like that, it's just rational guideline making. The reason we make guidelines is so we don't have to have the same discussion on every talk page and come to conclusions over and over again. Granted, that should happen to some degree, in that nothing is set in stone, but the point being is that we can refer to a rational consensus instead of having to come to one every time the issue is brought up. If we are going to make exceptions without reasonable arguments then the guideline loses it's value and effect. It doesn't matter if we come to this conclusion here or on a Lost talk page, we'll be having the same discussion because no new or reasonable arguments have been brought up. Why have this same debate for 20 different WikiProjects when nothing has changed?

	:::::::::::That being said, I don't mind that we keep the discussion open for longer for infrequent editors. The people who've already commented, including myself, are just repeating themselves now. -- ] 00:52, 4 November 2006 (UTC)

	Am i the only one who sees a major contradiction in how it is the same people who want the suffix because it is creates '''consistency''' advocating for certain TV series to be ''exceptions'', which reduces consistency over all the TV series? What's the point of doing something that's mostly redundant just to make one tiny group of articles more consistent, but wikipedia in general less?

	And since when did small individual wikiprojects have power to make decisions that override wikipedia-wide guildlines? Especially when wikiprojects can be so small that it's basically one or two people making decisions, and then claiming "the project reached a consensus". --] 01:59, 4 November 2006 (UTC)

	: If two people are working together on something non-controversial, then yes, they should be able to be ] and move forward with whatever that they're working on, without worrying about having to check consensus for each grammar change. If something is controversial though, then I think we should trust that other editors are going to be popping in to that WikiProject ]. But I still firmly believe that when you've got a large enough group of editors who are very familiar with a particular type of subject matter, such as in a WikiProject, that it usually makes sense to trust their ] in formatting articles in a way that they believe makes the most sense for their particular case. This doesn't mean going wild and putting the "External links" section at the top of the article, but it does mean making good faith exceptions to certain guidelines, such as in this "suffixes" issue. As I've pointed out before, I see no damage that's been caused to Misplaced Pages by the consistent system at ]. The only concern seems to be, "That's not how we usually do it," which isn't a good enough reason to go in and disrupt those categories. See ]. --] 18:52, 4 November 2006 (UTC)

	::To assume good faith is one thing, but we can do more than assume. In these situations we can actually look for the conversations and / or other things to show where the rational came from. There are many situations where something is added, not because of consensus, but because it was just there and no one really thought much of it. A good example of that would be the Star Trek example. No one actually discussed it, but it found it's way in there and it could be easy to assume there was a "consensus" behind it.

	::Also, WikiProjects, by no means whatsoever, have any ] or authority by simply being a WikiProject. WikiProjects are just centralized points of collaboration, not a governing body.

	::Again, making page moves is ''not'' a disruption. A category of Star Trek articles not having any activity does not make it "stable", and to make page moves there doesn't hurt anyone or disrupt anything. Page move wars, which both you and I have been guilty of, are harmful, but that's why we're having this discussion, so we'll only have to move things once. -- ] 19:28, 4 November 2006 (UTC)

	:Wikiprojects don't have special authority. Even when there is a large group of people who all agree, it doesn't put them above wikipedia-wide guildlines (which an even larger group of people should have agreed to.) And that's assuming there is indeed a ''large'' group of people, who ''all agree''. Which is all too often not the case. A lack of complaints from the rest of the project doesn't mean agreement. It could just mean the rest of the project didn't notice, didn't care, or did their part of AGF and assumed the person making the changes was following guildlines.

	:There is no such thing as a "good faith exception" ] simply means any ''prelimarily assumptions'' are to be made in good faith. It doesn't mean to stubbornly stick to ''assumptions'' when facts become avaliable. When an exception to a rule is made, we AGF - that is, we assume there is a valid reason for the exception. However, if upon request, the people making the exception are unable to provide a valid reason, then sticking to the assumption becomes a case of stupidity. So yes, of course we start off assuming good faith, but then if the facts prove us wrong, we stop believing those prelimary assumptions.

	:You seem to like consistency a lot. Has it not occured to you that unless Star Trek episodes is the ''only'' thing someone reads on wikipedia, this kind of exceptions to general naming schemes will actually reduce consistency for all other readers? --] 06:53, 5 November 2006 (UTC)
	::It seems to me you have misunderstood the concept of ]; an example of such is not, per your example, moving all the ''Star Trek'' episodes per the proper naming convention guidelines, but moving all the ''Star Trek'' episodes from (Star Trek episode) to (Star Trek gobbledy-goo) to "illustrate the point" that consistent article disambigs are not necessarily helpful. ] 12:40, 5 November 2006 (UTC)

	==Naming is not the most important issue==
	I hope that everyone at least can agree that worrying about an episode article name should be the last thing we think about. It is first important to determine if individual articles are even the best way to go. A "natural" progress for inclusion of episode information should be:
	# Basic list and very short summary in main series article
	# Split basic list into a separate "List of SeriesName episodes", longer summaries
	# Split "List of" into "SeriesName (season #)" articles, with longer summaries and production information
	# Split individual, noteworthy, episodes out of season articles
	# Move episodes into individual articles (when each episode attains "noteworthiness" just by virtue of being part of such a popular series)
	Too many bad situations are caused by people jumping right to #5. -- ] ] 19:51, 3 November 2006 (UTC)

	:This is correct, Netaholic, and indeed it's the order of business suggested at ]. And perhaps that guideline should be enforced more strictly than it is. However, since people ''are'' creating individual episode articles, it would be nice if those articles were named in accordance with Misplaced Pages guidelines. That's what we're working on here. —] <small>(] • ])</small> 20:44, 3 November 2006 (UTC)

	:Over all, it's not the most important issue, but this is ].. -- ] 22:04, 3 November 2006 (UTC)

	I don't suppose there's a place to propose merges that can result in binding decisions (like the way AfD produces a final binding decision on whether to delete or not)? --] 01:22, 4 November 2006 (UTC)

	:: On this episode article issue, I mostly agree with Netoholic. When we start documenting a particular series, we shouldn't immediately create individual episode articles, but instead should first start with a basic overview page, which perhaps contains a brief summarized list of episodes. Then as this grows, the list can be split off to a "List of episodes" page. Then if the series is shown to be definitely notable, that list can start hubbing out to individual episodes, starting with the most notable ones. Where I think I disagree though, is that ''only'' the most notable episodes should have individual pages, and that others should be kept strictly in summary form. I think that if a series is already at the point of creating individual episode pages, it becomes very difficult to decide which episodes are "page-worthy" and which aren't, so if someone really wants to go to the trouble of creating a page on every episode at that point, it's not going to hurt anything. But the series should definitely start at the "one-page-fits-all" point, rather than immediately jumping to a later step. --] 18:59, 4 November 2006 (UTC)

	::: It's more like #4 above is a transitional step (usually) to #5. I think there are a few situations a series would have only a few separate episode articles (], 11 seasons, and only a handful of episodes are of note). That is not the most common case, though, and I think most series should stop at #2 or #3. -- ] ] 09:42, 5 November 2006 (UTC)


	==How to proceed==
	Since the old poll got so tangled, I recommend we close it, and discuss our next step, such as working on a potential new paragraph for the Guideline, by finding wording that everyone agrees with. If we have obvious consensus, it can go into the guideline. If we don't have consensus, then we work on changing the wording until we do. For example, in other guidelines where there was controversy, the way I've seen it handled, is that in that particular section of the guideline, it simply says, "Controversy exists about whether or not action A or action B is better."

	I especially liked TobyRush's summary up above, which did a good job of reflecting the opinions here, so I started with that and put it into more of a paragraph form. Here's my suggestion, but feel free to suggest different wording:

	===Potential new guideline wording ===
	<blockquote>
	''There is some controversy about the exact way to title episode articles, but the general consensus is that in most cases, articles about individual episodes should use the title of the episode itself, unless that title is already in use, in which case the episode article should include (<seriesname> episode) as a disambiguating suffix. ''
	</blockquote>
	<blockquote>
	''In some cases, certain series may use slightly different systems, such as to use a disambiguating suffix of simply (<seriesname>) or even to include a consistent suffix on all episodes of a particular series, regardless of whether or not they are strictly required by disambiguation rules. Advantages to this system are that linked lists of episodes use a consistent titling scheme, and it becomes easier to link between episodes if many of them (or even the majority) already had suffixes. Other advantages are that it is convenient to include series context with an article's title, categories look more consistent, and specific subject areas are easier to see in editor watchlists. Disadvantages are that there may be some confusion if a suffix which normally implies disambiguation, is used on an article that did not need disambiguating; and the additional unneeded suffix results in a longer article title than necessary. So, these "exception" types of methods remain controversial, and are generally discouraged (see the talk page for more information).''
	</blockquote>

	How's that? Does this address everyone's concerns? --] 23:19, 5 November 2006 (UTC)
	:I don't see a need to change the current guideline at all, actually. When someone comes up with an exception that is necessary for a good reason (unlike the Lost exception proposal), then add it. —] (]) 23:33, 5 November 2006 (UTC)

	:No. At the risk of sounding uncivil. no no no no a thousand times NO. You are saying the EXACT SAME THING over and over, and we keep telling you no. -- ] 23:39, 5 November 2006 (UTC)

	The first paragraph looks fine. The rest just seems to be an excuse to let people who don't prefer the chosen method to make exceptions, which makes the whole thing a waste of time. ''In some cases, certain series''.. no no no! There is absolutely NO logical reason why one series should use a different format to another series, and why any TV series should use a different format to Misplaced Pages in general. The only reasons seem to be "it is already like that" and "the WikiProject <TV series> editors like it that way". The advantages and disadvantages listed are not specific to any one show; and as such, different shows shouldn't stray from them. ''it becomes easier to link between episodes'' .. no, not if you edit articles about different shows and every show has a different format. ''specific subject areas are easier to see in editor watchlists'' - this is what "shared watchlists" (such as ]) are for. -- ] 00:24, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

	:Exceptions are not just discouraged, they are ''against'' guildline. If there is a very good reason, then an exception may be okay. But there isn't. Why do we even need a guildline change? Our current problem looks more like it's about whether or not to allow arbitrary exceptions.

	:It's convient to include series context with an article's title? No...it really isn't. Shortest title means less typeing for the person naming the title, for people wanting to reach it from url edit or the go box, and for people trying to link to the article. Titles are titles, that's it.

	:So no, i don't think it really addresses anyone's concerns except maybe your own. And no, don't like it, for those reasons and all the ones already pointed out. --] 01:07, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

	::OK, I may have been premature in my ] inclusion of Cburnett's suggestion into the guideline. However, is there anyone besides Elonka who has a problem with it? —] <small>(] • ])</small> 01:55, 6 November 2006 (UTC)
	:::Not really. Not sure it's necessary but it's also not objectionable IMHO. —] (]) 02:08, 6 November 2006 (UTC)
	::::Okay, here's an idea that might interest some people. I may be wrong but can't you actually add a category to a redirect? Then the redirect appears in the category listing. If you then remove the category from the article itself, all you would see is the redirect in the category listing, not the article itself. I think I read somewhere where this same issue had come up and this method was proposed as a solution. I have no idea where that was though... Thoughts? —] (]) 02:13, 6 November 2006 (UTC)
	:::::won't work. sorry to put it so bluntly. The whole point of a category is so someone reading an article, when reaching the bottom, can get to the category with lots of other similar aricles. If you remove the category from the article itself, it defeats the purpose since readers will never get to it. Redirects can be added to categories, but someone clicking on a redirect will never notice the category because they...get redirected. For it to work, we'd have to add all the articles into a category that redirects to the category with the redirects (not sure if category redirecting is even possible), and someone clicking on a redirect would then be redirected to the article. Way too messy if you ask me. --] 02:40, 6 November 2006 (UTC)
	::::::Yep. Was a longshot. —] (]) 02:46, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

	:::I was under the impression all Cburnett suggested was that redirects also be created so that whichever naming convention was used for articles, both would "work". This is fine, and will work quite happily with:
	<blockquote>
	:::''Articles about individual episodes should use the title of the episode itself, unless that title is already in use, in which case the episode article should include (<seriesname> episode) as a disambiguating suffix. ''
	</blockquote>
	:::-- ] 04:39, 6 November 2006 (UTC)
	::::I'm still very much against (NameofSeries episode) when the word episode isn't actually necessary. If we strictly followed the dab guidelines as already written the word episode should only be added if not adding episode creates an ambiguous article title, such as when an episode is named after a character or setting that also has an article. I very much agree with that because it creates the simplest, shortest disambiguation. ] 05:27, 6 November 2006 (UTC)
	:::::Ok, lets look at it from another angle. Assuming no knowledge about an article, what would a title with "(Lost)", "(Medium)", "(24)", "(House)" or "(Oz)" indicate? Not much. So whats wrong with "(episode)"? That tells you exactly what it is. It also aligns with standard naming conventions - you will find we have articles about people ending in "(politician)" or "(musician)" rather than "(Australia)" or "(Canada)". -- ] 06:57, 6 November 2006 (UTC)
	I think the poll that took place the last week or so is essentially saying that the guideline is fine the way it is. Frankly, I'm not sure what the purpose of this new section is. Enough with the ]s and ]s. We're all repeating ourselves yet again. —] (]) 05:53, 6 November 2006 (UTC)
	:It looks to me like the poll is showing a preference for (<seriesname> episode) which is different to what ] says. Why do you think it says the guideline is fine the way it is? -- ] 06:57, 6 November 2006 (UTC)
	::I think he's talking about the poll showing a preference for simply not using unneeded disambiguation, so the current guildline of using disambiguation only when needed is fine. Meaning there's no need to change it or debate about what form of disambiguation to use.
	::Although i do agree the "episode" is redundant for episode articles that do need the disambiguation. It simply adds on another layer of disambiguation. "''Assuming no knowledge about an article, what would a title with "(Lost)", "(Medium)", "(24)", "(House)" or "(Oz)" indicate? Not much. So whats wrong with "(episode)"? That tells you exactly what it is.''" But the title of an article isn't supposed to serve the function of telling you what the article is. It's supposed to be a name, that's all. If titles were supposed to tell people what the article was about, we may as well be doing things like adding "(Chemical Element)" after articles like ] to tell non-chemists exactly what the article is. --] 08:34, 6 November 2006 (UTC)
	:::I agree with the "disambiguate only when necessary" part of it. It's the second part where the poll results differ from what the page currently says. Astatine doesn't require disambiguation, which is fine, but articles like ] do have it. My point was that "Lost", "24", "House" and so on have much more common meanings than the TV shows, thus they don't do much to clarify the meaning/content of the article, which is the point of disambiguation. -- ] 08:56, 6 November 2006 (UTC)
	::::The point of the tag is to differentiate the article from other existing articles of the same name. It's not meant to add anything to the article. It's not a mini-summary of the article and it's not a part of the content. It should be the bare minimum required to distinguish any two existing articles of the same title. That's why we have ] and not ] or ]. Just because ''Lost'', ''24'' and ''House'' have common meanings doesn't mean we have to address that in the article's title. Further, the most likely time the tag is important to a user would be in a dab page, where it's supposed to have a clarifying description such as "EpisodeName (Lost), an episode of the television series ]". ''That'' description sounds more like what you're talking about.
	::::If we decide that the tags are meant to be descriptive (they're not), then we have to determine ''how descriptive'' -- is (Lost episode) enough? There was another ], after all. Should it be EpisodeName (Lost (2004 TV series) episode)? We should just stick with what works for the rest of Misplaced Pages: use the simplest disambiguation possible and avoid the issue entirely. -] 11:27, 6 November 2006 (UTC)
	:::::BTW yes, I was refuting the original post in this section asking for verbiage about exceptions to the guideline (sorry for the confusion). No such exception language is necessary. As far as how to disambiguate when it ''is'' necessary, I abstain on that part. That doesn't seem particularly standard anywhere. In the baseball section, some bios are dabbed with (baseball player), some just with (baseball), some with (pitcher), etc. I almost never bother messing with those because I don't find it particularly important. I tend to agree with using a little as possible to actually disambiguate - that's the final goal of suffix tags - but I'm not a zealot either way. —] (]) 11:55, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

	::::::I agree — I don't really care that much whether the disambiguation tag says "episode" or not, although I tend to go with the shorter one. The important thing is that we ''don't'' encourage disambiguation tags when they're not necessary. —] <small>(] • ])</small> 18:51, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

	===About guidelines and consensus===
	Per ]: ''"People are sometimes tempted to call a vote on a guideline, but this is a bad idea because it polarizes the issue (see ] for details). Instead, a guideline is made by listening to objections and resolving them."'' As regards this naming conventions guideline, it is clear that there are objections, so the guideline should reflect that there is controversy. A few people repeatedly saying that there isn't controversy, and making personal attacks or otherwise harassing anyone raising good faith objections, is not "listening to objections and resolving them." I have offered a compromise wording, which is to state a primary method of titling episodes, while admitting that exceptions (and controversy) exist. I think that's pretty fair. If someone wants to suggest different wording though, I'm listening. --] 20:31, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

	: This guideline clearly is controversial per the extreme objections to it and per Elonka’s above comments. A few people popping up after there friends reply saying “I AGREE”, “Me two!!”, “Yuperz! Me agrees as well.”, “Wow” I couldn’t agree more”, “Agree, agree, agree!” so does not cancel out the ''significant'' objections of others. <small>] (]{{·}} ]{{·}} <span class="plainlinks" style="color:#002bb8"></span>{{·}} ])</small> 21:05, 6 November 2006 (UTC)
	:::I see no such mindless agreements here, Matthew. The participants in this conversation have expressed reasons and support for their positions, and I have yet to see a fully reasoned objection to the current wording. —] <small>(] • ])</small> 21:30, 6 November 2006 (UTC)
	::I'll use the term ] again. The idea that 24 people need to meet 7 people halfway is very much false. We've listened (with surprising patience at multiple sites) to the objections and the resolution as I understand it is "leave it as it is". You can throw around ]s about personal attacks and harassment all day if you want - the resolution still seems crystal clear to me. (Again, this is in regards to the exception verbiage which I believe is your chief issue). —] (]) 21:10, 6 November 2006 (UTC)
	:::I also dispute the notion that those supporting the current wording are treating this as a "vote" or ignoring the concerns of the dissenters. There is a broad agreement, with a few vocal opponents. Wknight94 and others have given clear reasons about why it is not a good idea to include mention of "exceptions" in the guideline. If the objections were more widespread, I could support such a wording, but as it is there are only a few editors objecting, and they have not (in my view) sufficiently justified their arguments. WikiProject precedent is not a sufficient reason to formalize an exception to core Misplaced Pages guidelines. —] <small>(] • ])</small> 21:27, 6 November 2006 (UTC)
	:Elonka, over and over again, any time a naming guideline for a particular area violates the basic naming conventions for Misplaced Pages, in particular ], ] and ], controversy and conflict errupt. The only way to have a naming convention specific to some area not conflict with the basic naming principles is to have it apply ''only'' when a known ambiguity issue exists. The purpose of these area-specific conventions should be to specify what to do in a particular naming area ''when and only when there is an ambiguity situation to resolve'', so that ambiguities are resolved in a consistent fashion. But please do not make the mistake of then using these ambiguity-resolving naming conventions on articles that don't even have an ambiguity issue to resolve; that's blatant and pointless violation of the general naming guidelines, and leads to conflict and controversy. Why advocate for that? --] 21:17, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

	== Treat each article independently ==

	Every article in Misplaced Pages, including every article about a TV episode, should be named in accordance with Misplaced Pages policy and guidelines, including ], ], ], etc. More specific naming guidelines should only apply in those cases where a known ambiguity issue exists. That is, if the name of the episode is not used in Misplaced Pages for any other article, that should be the name of the article about that episode, ''period''. If there is an ambiguity issue, then it's appropriate to look for guidelines here and/or at an appropriate Wikiproject, but, even then, those are only guidelines. In the end, each article should be treated independently. Trying to impose a naming convention that inherently violates fundamental general Misplaced Pages naming conventions only creates conflict, and understandably so. — ] 16:43, 6 November 2006 (UTC)
	:"More specific naming guidelines should only apply in those cases where a known ambiguity issue exists." Where specifically is that said on one of the pages you linked to? --] 17:17, 6 November 2006 (UTC)
	::Unfortunately, it's not stated anywhere, and, so, we have endless bickering and consternation. It ''should'' say that somewhere so that we would not have all this conflict. --] 18:21, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

	:You are correct that "trying to impose a naming convention that inherently violates fundamental general Misplaced Pages naming conventions only creates conflict." That's why the current wording of the guideline is an attempt to make certain that television episodes ''follow'' the general Misplaced Pages naming conventions, instead of being an exception to them. It's an effort to avoid ''future'' conflict. —] <small>(] • ])</small> 18:49, 6 November 2006 (UTC)
	::Understood, and I support the current wording of the guideline for TV episodes for this reason. --] 19:16, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

	== Move survey in progress: Hole in One ==

	There is a TV episode article entitled ]. There is a requested move survey to move it to ] at ]. --] 22:05, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

	== <s>Walking</s> <s>Limping</s> Crawling up Mount Consensus ==

	It seems to me that we have a tentative consensus about the general guideline, and there are now two items upon which there is still some disagreement:

	# Whether or not to acknowledge here the possibility of exceptions to this guideline
	# Whether to use "(SeriesName)" or "(SeriesName episode)" when disambiguation is deemed necessary

	'''Regarding the first item:''' Since ] states that "Guidelines are not set in stone and should be treated with common sense and the occasional exception," we should recognize that there may be a situation where an exception to this guideline is appropriate. Rather than use ] or ], for which there is guideline-related disagreement, allow me to suggest a hypothetical television show, ]. This show, described by its fans as "a show about userboxes," has an very interesting distinction: its episodes are named in such a way that the ''episode article titles require pre-emptive disambiguation.'' In fact, naming an episode article without a disambiguating phrase '''would cause the internet to collapse.''' So it exists as a common-sense exception to the guidelines here at TV:NC.

	(Now, before you argue that there is no such show, remember that WP:D notes that guidelines can have exceptions, and so this serves as the hypothetical common-sense exception that may someday be found, and that we should accept and be prepared for.)

	So, assuming the existence of this hypothetical series, do we make any mention of exceptions here, on the guideline page? If we do not, we are trusting that future editors will know about ]'s allowance of common-sense exceptions. If we do mention the exceptions on the guideline page, we risk encouraging editors to find reasons to make needless exceptions to the guideline. Elonka's argument, as I understand it, is that we should make this decision based on the possibility of series ''that have justifiable reasons to exempt themselves from the guideline.'' I think that's a extremely valid argument that is in keeping with ]. (Elonka, I hope I'm not misrepresenting you here!) That said, I am leaning toward not including the exception verbiage here, but I can certainly see the merit of doing it both ways.

	] and ] are both great shows (well, I actually haven't seen Lost yet, so keep the spoilers away, please), but they're not helping us achieve consensus here. It seems to me that we should work toward consensus on a general guideline, and ''then'' take that guideline to individual shows and debate there whether or not the shows qualify as common sense exceptions. It's hard to focus on the merits of a general guideline when controversial exceptions keep getting thrown in, and I think it will help those individual discussions if we can create a general guideline and achieve broad consensus on it.

	'''Regarding the second item:''' One of the reasons we chose against pre-emptive disambiguation was that the title of the article need not establish context (that's the job of the first line of the article itself). Therefore, the disambiguating phrase need only serve to identify the article among the other articles on the disambiguation page. If someone is looking for the article about Futurama article "The Sting," they will quickly determine that ] is what they're looking for, and not ]. However, as Josiah pointed out above, ] would need to be expanded to ] to distinguish it from ]. --] ‹ <big>]\|]</big> › 23:03, 6 November 2006 (UTC)
	:Well said, Toby. We could use your and Josiah's logic and reason over at ]. --] 23:23, 6 November 2006 (UTC)


	:The first item, I have no objection to having an example, as long as that example has reasonable rational and context. To make an exception without this would create a loop hole and confusion. Having reasonable exceptions is something that is apart of all guidelines, and a lack of example in no way is an attempt to dispute that. If we have a reasonable example that is not misleading, then by all means include it. (this would not include the above example)

	:The second item, as I noted when I "voted" that I had no strong preference. Others have also listed their names under both, which I take it is also an indication of no strong preference? The poll itself seems pretty split there. The second item sounds like a no consensus issue. -- ] 23:35, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

	::Just to be clear, Ned: my discussion of a hypothetical series was merely for the benefit of our discussion here; I don't see any benefit of actually including it as part of the guideline. --] ‹ <big>]\|]</big> › 04:15, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

	:Including the suggested language that exceptions are possible implies that there currently exists some series which qualifies as such an exception. Barring Wikipedians being picked up for the 2007 season, there are no series I'm aware of that merit a common-sense exception (that includes Star Trek). In the rare and hypothetical event that a show doesn't fit into the guidelines and seems like it should be an exception, I believe that the guideline should be updated to address the particularities of the series and obviate the need for an exception.

	:As for the ] article, that falls under the provisions of ]. Clearly, ] needs the "episode" tag to differentiate it from ], but only because anything less would be ambiguous. ] is a perfect example of the position I'm advocating, making proper use of all three possibilities: ] in the aforementioned case, (Doctor Who) when there are other articles unrelated to Doctor Who, and a plain title in general. -] 23:52, 6 November 2006 (UTC)
	::The point of not listing an example right now is that none exist. Stating that when exceptions need to be made they can be made is unnecessary as that is general policy. Until a situation exists that an exception needs to be made, there need not be an explanation for exception. If an exception actually arises then it can be listed with the reason for its exception being noted as well. ] 00:15, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

	:Toby is correct that the general notion of "reasonable exceptions" applies whether we make it explicit or not. However, making it explicit has the disadvantage of ''inviting'' such exceptions, whether they are reasonable or not. Perhaps if we understood the reasoning, if any, behind the established exception at ''Star Trek'' (and proposed exception at ''Lost''), we would be better able to understand the argument for mentioning that exception in this guideline. As it is, the only reason I can see for the exception is "we've done it this way for a long time, and it hasn't hurt anyone." Precedent has a value, but a bad precedent can be overturned if better reasons present themselves. We've given the reasons why we feel the ''Star Trek'' example is a bad precedent; I have yet to hear the argument for why it might be a ''good'' precedent. I'd like to. —] <small>(] • ])</small> 01:02, 7 November 2006 (UTC)
	::My bet is that, if an exception comes up, it will apply to more than one case. It will become part of the guideline, not an exception. It's evolution which, by definition, includes changes and exceptions. —] (]) 02:51, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

	:::Toby, I completely agree with what you said, thank you for summarizing.

	::: May I also humbly suggest that we start this discussion from scratch? This page is getting awfully long, which is discouraging participation, plus the personal attacks make it difficult to ]. Also, I would very much like to see the poll closed, since it has been repeatedly invalidated by the multiple changes to its structure (and no, I'm not just saying that because I'm in the "minority," I would feel the same way even if in the majority). Also, before rushing to start a new poll, I would like to see us discuss suggested poll questions to make sure that we're in agreement on ''what'' is being polled, so that we don't repeat the mistake of rewriting a new poll while it's in-process. So, I recommend that we archive the entire discussion, including the poll, and make a fresh start? Can we at least get consensus on that much? :) --] 07:07, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

	::::This is absurd. Making a new poll would be one thing (unnecessary, really, since it's just one form of data collection), but we are not starting discussion over from scratch. And please, referring to each other by name is NOT a personal attack. The poll's results are very still very much valid, and I'll personally volunteer to go to everyone's talk page to confirm their position and intended meaning. You're just avoiding the issues being brought up and keep trying to sneak in an exception. This is a case where we have consensus and a few editors are dragging their feet about this. So, no, we're not starting over, if anything we should be wrapping up this discussion and start requesting moves for the Lost articles. -- ] 07:39, 7 November 2006 (UTC)
	:::::I concur. Internet debates and Misplaced Pages's especially seem to be a question of endurance and who tires of arguing first. We should accept that we're never going to convince ''everyone'' for a true consensus, though there is a clear ] in favor of disambiguating only when necessary. -] 11:00, 7 November 2006 (UTC)
	::::::IMHO, you can archive the discussion part - the vast parts of repetition anyway - but the poll results stay right up on the top. If I recall correctly, Elonka, you were one of the people messing with the structure of the poll while it was going on, so it seems disingenuous for you to call it invalid. Everyone knew what was being discussed - we're not stupid. If you want to start some new poll regarding Lost specifically, it seems only fair for you to invite each one of the people that voted in this poll. —] (]) 12:27, 7 November 2006 (UTC)
	:::::::I don't see the advantage in restarting the discussion or having a new poll. If anyone feels that votes may have been recorded in error, due to the changing of the poll questions, Ned's kind volunteering should take care of that. Discussions have been made, opinions have been stated, and all but two active participants have agreed on a solution. I don't think that going through the whole process all over again will change anything. —] <small>(] • ])</small> 17:06, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

	::''Perhaps if we understood the reasoning, if any, behind the established exception at Star Trek (and proposed exception at Lost), we would be better able to understand the argument for mentioning that exception in this guideline.'' - I don't think there is any reasoning. Star Trek's reason seems to be "it is already like that" and Lost's seems to be "Star Trek can do it, so why can't we". If you mention and allow exceptions, then anyone will just make an exception whenever they feel like it, which is the '''entire point of this discussion''' to decide on a single convention and stick by it. -- ] 12:40, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

	== What's easier to find? ==

	Is it easier to find a page with "episode" in its title, based on wikipedia's search? Is putting the word "episode" in the first sentence equivalent? What if you search for ""? Do we care about how the search results may change? - ] 07:24, 7 November 2006 (UTC)
	:Note that by using redirects we can get the exact same results. -- ] 07:32, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

	== Lost episode move requests? ==

	Seeing as though this discussion is petering out and certainly has gone nowhere as far as explaining a Lost-specific exception to the guideline, I don't personally see a problem with bringing the Lost episode articles at question to ] now. Any strong objections? —] (]) 17:12, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

	:Maybe a good idea to wait, just a little. I can see this thing finishing up pretty soon now. --] 11:41, 8 November 2006 (UTC)
	:Yeah, give it a few days, just to reduce tension. ] 12:25, 8 November 2006 (UTC)
	::Will do. I don't see the two main holdouts agreeing to anything final anytime soon but I'll hold off as a courtesy. —] (]) 13:44, 8 November 2006 (UTC)

	== Reasons for exceptions ==

	Let's try to see if the reasons that have been given as justifications for WikiProject exceptions hold water. For the sake of presenting the arguments fairly, I will use Elonka's words, not my own. I see three classes of argument:

	*'''Precedent''': ''for example, the Star Trek episodes have been using a slightly different format for a long time, without a problem''.
	*'''Consistency''': ''linked lists of episodes use a consistent titling scheme, and it becomes easier to link between episodes if many of them (or even the majority) already had suffixes...'' and ''categories look more consistent''.
	*'''Context''': ''it is convenient to include series context with an article's title... and specific subject areas are easier to see in editor watchlists.''

	Assuming these three classes are the primary reasons given, let's examine them one at a time.

	*'''Precedent''': ''for example, the Star Trek episodes have been using a slightly different format for a long time, without a problem''.
	**Precedents are useful, but only if they have good reasons behind them. Furthermore, only decisions by Jimbo, the ArbCom and the Wikimedia Foundation Board are binding — beyond that, there are ]. If a consensus among Wikipedians is contrary to the decision of a WikiProject, the larger consensus should be followed. (It goes without saying that all WikiProject members are welcome in the larger decision-making process, and indeed the members of the Star Trek WikiProject have been invited to join this discussion.) Given this, the precedent has value only insofar as its reasoning can be explained. Which leads us to the remaining two arguments:

	*'''Consistency''': ''linked lists of episodes use a consistent titling scheme, and it becomes easier to link between episodes if many of them (or even the majority) already had suffixes...'' and ''categories look more consistent''.
	**This is an aesthetic judgment, and one that is not supported by any Misplaced Pages policy. ] says, "When there is no risk of confusion, do not disambiguate nor add a link to a disambiguation page." This would indicate that it is incorrect to name an article, for example, ] when ] is perfectly clear and unambiguous.
	**Furthermore, the "ease of linking" concern is adequately addressed by the recommendation to create redirects with the appropriate suffixes.

	*'''Context''': ''it is convenient to include series context with an article's title... and specific subject areas are easier to see in editor watchlists.''
	**It is not the function of article naming to provide context. The article itself does that, ideally in its first line. Nor is it the function of article naming to categorize articles. The category system does that. As I argued above,
	::::''If I came upon a contextless link to, say, ] (a page I found by hitting "random article" a few times), I would have no idea what that was. But if I see a link to Adios Butler in a list of pacing horses on ], then I'll know that Adios Butler is a horse. My ignorance of the subject of horse racing is not a justification for renaming that article ].''

	From my point of view, the objections to these reasons are all much stronger than the reasons themselves. I would greatly appreciate any responses to these arguments, and any further reasons that I have missed. Thank you. —] <small>(] • ])</small> 19:43, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

	:This appears to be a good summation of the argument. I'd add more but there doesn't seem to be anything else to say. ] 21:11, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

	:This is a succinct and articulately stated argument that would work as a much more general argument against the practice of "predisambiguation" (qualifying a title beyond the most common name used when no ambiguity issues are known) in any category of Misplaced Pages articles. Bravo! --] 21:26, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

	:Another hole in the "easier to see in my watchlist" argument, which ] mentioned before, is that you can use the ] page as a pseudo-watchlist for a specific topic. For example, the for ] would suffice for Elonka's needs, I think. You could even get more particular and create a userpage with only the articles you want to watch. -] 21:46, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

	:Under consistency, there is another important argument. I will copy some of my statements made previously here rather than restate them:
	::While it may provide a small benefit in remembering link names for those users who exclusively edit articles relating to ''Star Trek'', for the rest of us, who are just as likely to link to a ''Star Trek'' episode as any other article, having a policy of preemptive disambiguation for ''Star Trek'' articles is just another dumb exception that has to be memorized and makes Misplaced Pages less consistent overall.
	::There is more to Misplaced Pages than just articles about ''Star Trek'' episodes. Sure, all the entries in the category page have the same parenthetical disambiguation, satisfying some bizarre fetish for things to line up on category pages, but it makes Misplaced Pages as a whole more inconsistent, hard to use, and unpredictable, not less. What Misplaced Pages needs is articles whose titles follow a consistent, project-wide system for disambiguation, not a warren of exceptions and loopholes.
	:And also, from the list of cons for allowing preemptive disambiguation:
	::# Con: Rather than just clarifying the general naming convention, directly contradicts it
	::# Con: Clutters the article namespace with unnecessary parenthetical disambiguations
	::# Con: Confuses users who wonder what other things have this title because it has a parenthetical disambiguation
	::# Con: Muddies the semantics of the article namespace with arbitrary additional attributes for a certain class of articles
	::# Con: Is hard to remember for people who don't frequently link to ''Star Trek'' or ''Lost'' episodes
	::# Con: Makes Misplaced Pages less consistent overall by increasing the complexity of the article naming conventions
	:] 01:27, 8 November 2006 (UTC)

	*I found this link at the village pump asking for outside opinions, so I'm not fully familiar with the background here, but if the debate is whether all articles on TV episodes should be titled "]", or whether this should only be done when "]" is already 'taken' by some other article - it seems clear to me that the <s>former</s>latter is preferred, both per Josiah's good summary of the arguments above, and per the Manual of Style. Redirects are a nice touch for compromise. ] 11:02, 8 November 2006 (UTC)

	**You mean the ''latter'' is preferred, don't you? —] <small>(] • ])</small> 14:07, 8 November 2006 (UTC)
	***Yes. Tyop, sorry. ] 14:26, 8 November 2006 (UTC)

	==Wrapping things up==

	Brilliant summary up there Josiah Rowe.

	It seems like the bottom line is that we're argueing about whether or not to use unneeded disambiguation when there're absolutely no valid reasons for doing so. What a waste of time. The current guildlines are fine as it is, just because two people disagreeing doesn't mean we need to scratch/change it.

	The question remaining now is whether to allow exceptions to the guildlines. I can't really see a problem here either. Everyone agrees that guildlines are just guildlines and common sense exceptions are always allowed when ''there are valid reasons for it''. And the exceptions we're talking about here...don't seem to have any valid reasons, as pointed out above.

	Can we sort of...try and get things wrapped up here?

	Unless of course, anyone here has anything new to say. --] 11:38, 8 November 2006 (UTC)
	*Can you give an example of a (proposed) exception with a plausible reason for that? ] 12:24, 8 November 2006 (UTC)
	**Other than the ''Lost'' ones being proposed here, I haven't heard any. To me, there's no such thing as exceptions to the guideline. If a situation comes up which opposes the current guideline, that would become ''part of'' the guideline, not an ''exception to'' the guideline. I haven't thought of a situation like that anyway so it's probably a moot point. —] (]) 13:49, 8 November 2006 (UTC)

	***Radiant (and anyone else who's coming in late), the main issue is that the ] has somewhat long-established guidelines recommending pre-emptive disambiguation. Some people are advocating the same for ''Lost'', using the arguments I laid out above (mostly the "consistency" one — an odd sort of fetish for the way articles look in categories, as far as I can figure). I've left a ] asking the Star Trek folks to come here and explain their reasoning. I'd give them a few days to do so before we call this finished. I know it's been going on forever, but if we do it right we'll have fewer people complaining when pages start getting moved to comply with this guideline. —] <small>(] • ])</small> 14:06, 8 November 2006 (UTC)

	Star Trek and Lost have been mentioned as examples of shows that haven't followed the policy on naming, but there seem to be more than that (just looking a bit, more seem to violate the policy than follow it). Has anyone checked to see how many shows aren't following the policy (and could potentially face article renaming)? Do people intend to move every article they find that doesn't follow the policy? --] 16:28, 8 November 2006 (UTC)
	:Yes. —] (]) 16:31, 8 November 2006 (UTC)
	*If the argument against consistency is that the Star Trek pages "have always done it that way", then I don't find that a very compelling argument. So that would be a yes. ] 16:43, 8 November 2006 (UTC)
	::I've gotten in trouble with moves before, but I think I will if I can get support, consensus and probably present the existing policy. ]; ]. 17:37, 8 November 2006 (UTC)
	:::A question. Some shows use a lot of single word titles. ] would need maybe 95% of its pages disambiguated. When people see other pages disambiguated, that's probably what leads to the unnecessary disambiguation. Should we set a threshhold (50%, 75%) where if that many of the pages need disambiguation, the rest should get it as well? - ] 18:08, 8 November 2006 (UTC)
	::::I don't see the need. Disambiguated titles are a necessary evil and should be avoided as much as possible - for all of the reasons given above (if you can still weed through it all). —] (]) 18:34, 8 November 2006 (UTC)
	::::Once again, I mention one of my best analogies: ]. Should they are be pre-emptively dabbed because the writers rarely come up with an original name? No. And no to your question. Though, for better or worse, the episode articles are left to the unofficial "Smaillville Wiki." ]; ]. 18:38, 8 November 2006 (UTC)
	::::I think Smallville is a great example, because in it's case there aren't actually any episode articles hosted on Misplaced Pages - they are all on the Smallville wiki (hosted by Wikia, formerly Wikicities) - thus getting rid of the problem completely! Not that I mind the episodes being on Misplaced Pages for some shows, but having the episodes hosted externally is certainly an "easy way out" .. and for those of the "we want to have a different naming convention to the rest of Misplaced Pages" opinion - it is the most reasonable way of getting it! -- ] 22:31, 8 November 2006 (UTC)

	To clear up some confusions about what people think I said, I am not advocating that ''all'' television episode articles should use a suffix, I am stating that ''some'' series, in my opinion, should be allowed to exhibit an exception to standard disambiguation guidelines. Further, I think that it makes sense for those editors who are most familiar with a particular subset of subject matter, to make that determination. For example, let's look at the Star Trek articles in ]. In fact, let's get even more specific and look at ], where all of the episodes currently have a consistent suffix, "(TOS episode)". I realize that a couple of editors here at WP:NC-TV (specifically Wknight94 and Ned Scott) regard the ''Star Trek'' format as "evil", and they're itching to go in there and move articles to what they regard as "the right" titles. But, ''it's not that simple,''' and further, I think that adamantly trying to enforce WP:NC-TV as a "policy", runs the danger of being actively disruptive. Here's my reasoning: The articles in that Star Trek category have been stable for quite some time. But what exactly is it that Wknight94 and Ned Scott want to do? To move every single episode that doesn't need disambiguation to just the episode title? Then, what about those with "(TOS episode)". Are we moving all of those as well, to "(Star Trek episode)", since that was the original name of the series? Or are we going to saddle each one of those episodes with the absurdly long suffix of "(Star Trek: The Original Series episode)"? I strongly believe that this is ''not'' a determination that we should be making here from WP:NC-TV -- this is a determination that the ''Star Trek'' editors who deal with these articles on a daily basis should be making, and have made, and we should trust that they acted in ]. Also, though I'm doing some crystal ball work here, I'm willing to bet that even if we had consensus here at WP:NC-TV, and then were to suddenly descend on the Star Trek articles like birds of prey (pardon the pun) and move things around, that there would be other Star Trek editors who hadn't heard of this discussion, who would suddenly perk up and yell, "Hey! What the hell??." So there would be a good chance that categories which have been relatively peaceful for months, would suddenly turn into a battleground. Is this really what we want?

	In other words, ''It ain't broke, so why does it need fixing?'' Let's please trust that editors who are familiar with the subject matter, who are familiar with the various ways of distinguishing the different series, have been doing their best, in ], to come up with a reasonable and professional way of handling those many episodes. We shouldn't be trying to micro-manage every TV series from here, we should just be coming up with a ''general'' guideline, and then allowing for exceptions. --] 23:44, 8 November 2006 (UTC)

	:''I am stating that some series, in my opinion, should be allowed to exhibit an exception to standard disambiguation guidelines.'' We know what the suggestion is, but we are asking - WHY? The only attempt at a "reason" that anyone has given for this is "because it is already like that" which is not a valid reason. What is the point of a guideline if there are just going to be exceptions? The comments above about (TOS episode) vs (Star Trek episode) are a non-sequitur and not relevant to this discussion. I saw links to this discussion on many other pages, so I would presume there would be one the Star Trek WikiProject one as well - I'll go look now, and mention it if it isn't already. -- ] 23:52, 8 November 2006 (UTC)
	:It has already been mentioned at ]. I notice the project lists ] as one of its parents wikiprojects, so in theory they should be involved with making, and abide by, decisions here that affect them -- ] 23:58, 8 November 2006 (UTC)
	::(edit conflict) I think it was Mr. Spock from ] who said that the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few or the needs of the one. In Misplaced Pages terms, the standards of Misplaced Pages outweigh the standards of the projects or the standards of an individual. With your tone above, it sounds like you need to read ]. That being said, I've heard that someone has already mentioned this discussion at the Star Trek project and I haven't seen anyone coming here looking for blood. With how long those articles have been in place, I highly doubt the holy war you're envisioning would really happen. I'll bet many there would hail us as heroes liberating them from their annoying article names. —] (]) 00:00, 9 November 2006 (UTC)
	:''It ain't broke, so why does it need fixing?'' -] When the naming violates broadly followed Misplaced Pages naming conventions, particularly those reflected in the ] and ] naming guidelines, it ''is'' broke. As far as how to disambiguate those titles that ''require'' disambiguation, there is a lot of leeway there. But those where the epidode name alone creates a unique article title within Misplaced Pages should not have any additional information in their title, and, yes, they should be changed. Of course, any change like this should be done along with a note on the relevant Talk page, including a link to this survey and discussion. --] 00:07, 9 November 2006 (UTC)
	::BTW, I don't have a problem with leaving them as (TOS episode). We already abbreviate "TV" all over the place here. Hope that makes you feel better. —] (]) 00:10, 9 November 2006 (UTC)
	:::I agree with Serge and Wknight94 — the Star Trek example ''is'' broken. However, if a Star Trek page ''does'' need disambiguating, I don't particularly care how it's labelled. —] <small>(] • ])</small> 02:01, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

	:It seems to me that there is actually a very simple way to address this: bring the editors responsible for starting and/or continuing the current Star Trek naming scheme into our discussion. Elonka is right in that we should assume that they acted in good faith when they made their decisions about that convention, and we should hear and address their reasons before making any changes to the pages there.
	:If the ST folks joined us for a polite, open-minded, constructive, ''consensus-oriented'' discussion about naming conventions, then whatever we came up with would be '''consensus with a captial C'''. Does anyone have their number? --] ‹ <big>]\|]</big> › 00:19, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

	::That's why I ] them over. No sign of them yet... —] <small>(] • ])</small> 01:58, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

	''Why'' must Star Trek (or any other show) have an exception to the policies and guidelines? If those episode pages were to get moved to names consistent with the rest of wikipedia, how exactly would that make those pages any worse? And what does "familiarity with the subject" have to do with naming? What could possibly be so unique to Star Trek that it requires a different naming convention than every other article on wikipedia? It sounds like you just want to make your own rules instead of following the WP rules. --] 00:50, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

	::Could we stop bring up "good faith"? This isn't about assuming someone has good or bad intentions. This is about deciding what's more important: well-intentioned actions that don't have positive results (and clear/solid reasoning) or following a sound guideline thorough Misplaced Pages to maintain trie consistancy. No one here is saying that the projects/Wikipedian(s) reponsible are "evil doers". The issue is whether they should be exceptions and why. And as for bringing in others, they're welcome to come; they always were. The most we could/should do is contact them, but if they don't want to join in,—which seems to be the case—we can't force 'em. So, if all that's clear, can we please focus? ]; ]. 01:21, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

	:It's beautiful ]:
	:*Side A: The guideline is fine the way it is.
	:*Side B: You just want that because "that's the way it's always been".
	:*Side A: Let's go change the Star Trek articles.
	:*Side B: You can't change the Star Trek standard! That's the way it's always been!
	:Being both for and against the same line of thinking within a one-week span: ].
	:—] (]) 01:29, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

	::WK, it's not quite that simple. The guideline was here first. \~_*/

	::Seriously, though, they chose to ignore the guideline for reasons that don't hold up. And since they are exceptions to this general convention, I'd imagine their method isn't "the way it's always been." More...the way it's been for the majority of the time. ]; ]. 01:21, 9 November 2006 (UTC)
	:::The same guidelines were ignored when the vast majority of U.S. cities were bot-created with predisambiguated names using the comma convention. Help in getting ] too would be much appreciated! (e.g, why is ] at ]?). --] 01:36, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

	I don't see any point in waiting. Elonka had already posted a notice on the talk pages of all the star trek episode main articles (that is, the "list of" articles) (, , , and ) 10 days ago. notices were also posted onto the disambiguation guildline talk page and the NC main guildline talk page asking for people to join in. It's long enough warning for people to join us.

	Elonka, your entire argument breaks down when we see exactly how the disambiguation standard in the star trek articles came about. Here're the previous discussions by the star trek project on naming conventions:
	*].
	*]
	*]
	I suggest everyone take a look, they're not all that long.

	Now is this enough for everyone?--] 04:33, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

	:Fair enough — of the two most active participants in those discussions, one (Cburnett) is the author of the current compromise on the guideline page, and the other (E Pluribus Anthony) has left Misplaced Pages. I suppose there's been enough time for anyone who cares to discuss it here. (Of course, I fully expect more people to show up protesting as soon as we start putting the guideline into effect, but I suppose we've done our duty.) —] <small>(] • ])</small> 05:33, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

	::Josiah, I apologize that I didn't notice your invitation of the Star Trek folks when I posted earlier... and Yaksha is right in that we've made several posts over there so anyone who has interested should probably have joined our discussion by now.
	::I bring up "good faith" not because I am defending the ST project's naming conventions (on the contrary, I look forward to the consistency TV:NC can bring over there), but because we should be respectful as we bring those pages into consistency with the guideline. While there's nothing stopping us from starting to move pages (maybe it's already begun?), why don't we begin by put something like this on the ST talk page:
	::<blockquote>Greetings, Star Trek editors!</blockquote>
	::<blockquote>There has been an extended discussion at ] for several weeks concerning the naming of television episode articles on Misplaced Pages. A consensus has been reached that article titles should only include disambiguating phrases when there is another article on Misplaced Pages with the same name as the episode name. Thus, ] would not need any disambiguation, where ] would, in order to differentiate it from ].</blockquote>
	::<blockquote>This has actually been a very long-thought-out discussion, and has had input from many editors from many different shows and WikiProjects, including Star Trek. However, because the Star Trek episodes are so plentiful, and have used a differing system for some time now, the editors contributing to TV:NC felt it appropriate to mention it here before people started moving episode articles to new names. Rest assured that these changes are not being made flippantly, but only after a long discussion about how to best comply with Misplaced Pages's general article naming scheme.</blockquote>
	::<blockquote>Thank you for your help!</blockquote>
	::This repeats some information Josiah and other posted earlier on, but I think it would show some respect for the editors over there, and it might avoid some reversion wars. I think it would be good to add the article moving to the WikiProject "to-do" list (if there is one), and anyone who is moving pages over there should do it right, fixing secondary links along the way.
	::Also, I tidied up the guideline formatting just a bit, since we might have a lot more people looking at it here pretty soon. As always, revert me if you disagree... :) --] ‹ <big>]\|]</big> › 06:38, 9 November 2006 (UTC)
	:::it seems a tad redundant, since any editor who regularly visits the ST talk page would also be keeping track of the ST project's page. But i guess, no harm done in being poliet. I'm defintely in support of dropping a note to the ST project page before any moving begins. The last thing we need is another article move war over this. --] 07:00, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

	:::Looks good to me. Which talk page were you thinking of putting it on? The Wikiproject's, or the talk page of one or more of the Star Trek articles? —] <small>(] • ])</small> 06:55, 9 November 2006 (UTC)
	::::Wikiproject. Unless you really want to go spam hundreds of individual episode articles with notices =P. Passing editors who have edited individual episode articles are really not likely to care. Besides, whoever does the moving can just include a link to the discussion here in their summary. --] 07:46, 9 November 2006 (UTC)
	*This is conflating two issues - the first is whether Star Trek episode articles should use disambiguation if that isn't in fact necessary (which we're actually discussing here). The second is what kind of suffix they should use when disambiguation ''is'' necessary (which is an unrelated issue probably best left to the Star Trek wikiproject). Confusion over the second is not a very strong reason for opposing the first. ] 13:02, 9 November 2006 (UTC)
	::Yes, isn't that what we're trying to do? Move pages which have unneeded disambiguation to get rid of the uneeded disambiguation. We don't seem to be getting any strong agreements on the second issue and it doesn't seem to be all that important anyway. --] 00:25, 10 November 2006 (UTC)

	== Qualification ==

	I changed this:
	:''Where an episode title is the same as a character or similar object also present in the series, disambiguate further using the word "episode":''
	to this:
	:''Where an episode title is the same as a character or object from the series which might reasonably have its own page, disambiguate further using the word "episode":''
	because otherwise episodes named after characters who don't necessarily deserve their own pages (such as ] or ]) might get disambiguated. Recording my reasoning here in case anyone disagrees. —] <small>(] • ])</small> 06:52, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

	The "might reasonably have" language is open to too much interpretation, unnecessarily, I think. I suggest (but did not change):
	:''Where an episode title is the same as a character or object from the series which has its own page, disambiguate further using the word "episode":''
	Requiring a page move in the rare instances where a page is created with a conflicting character or object name is no big deal. We require the same for any undisambiguated episode title should another page with the same name in Misplaced Pages be created. --] 06:57, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

	::That's quite reasonable, and I've gone ahead and made the change. —] <small>(] • ])</small> 07:04, 9 November 2006 (UTC)
	:::I don't mean to beat this to death, but this seems to raise a small problem to me. Isn't the usual disambiguation method on Misplaced Pages to first disambiguate by the most general term? For example, the ] guideline for books is to first use "novel" or "short story", and only to include the author's name when just the type isn't enough. Same with albums ("album" first, then band name), films ("film" first, then year), etc. In other words, the primary disambiguator is what the item ''is'', not what it relates to. This method appears to be used almost exclusively. With that in mind, shouldn't "episode" be the preferred disambiguator here, and the series name only be used when additionally needed? Using the series name first seems to be contrary to established conventions. -- ] 14:06, 9 November 2006 (UTC)
	::::You're probably right but that might send you off into ''every'' other part of Misplaced Pages because that guideline breakage is done everywhere. Take a look through any category of baseball players and you'll find an unpleasant mix of (baseball player) and (baseball) and (athlete) and (outfielder) and (Twins player), etc. That mistake is far more prevalent than this first issue being discussed here. —] (]) 14:20, 9 November 2006 (UTC)
	::::I agree strongly with Fru1tbat - I mentioned up ] that ''(24)'', ''(Medium)'', ''(House)'', ''(Lost)'' or ''(Oz)'' after a name may be '''more''' confusing, causing readers to think that there is a Small and Large version of something, or that a House episode name refers is an article about a type of building. No-one else has really agreed with me though so I have left it alone. Wknight, just because other areas of Misplaced Pages may need cleanup in this regard, doesn't mean we can't be the first! -- ] 20:48, 9 November 2006 (UTC)
	::::::(Sorry to sneak in here after the fact) Chuq, that's fine to be the first but that's a holy war I'm not passionate enough to fight in. But best of luck to you in that battlefield! :) —] (]) 22:54, 9 November 2006 (UTC)
	:::::The policy really says to use the simplest method of disambiguation. The word episode could also cause confusion, because it really means an incident as part of a series. We'd probably then have to specify that these are television episodes to avoid that confusion. The series name is probably the simplest and least confusing way to disambiguate. Even with the examples given there would be a difference between ] and ] the former being an aspect of the tv series House named Pilot and the latter a house named Pilot. I know some of you don't like the capital letter disambiguation, but when people search with capital letters they're generally looking for a proper noun. Also, using the series name rather than episode will avoid all conflicts of two tv series having the same episode name. We don't want to have arguments about which episode is more notable and therefore gets the shorter title. I was in one of the discussions between ] and ], and it was not pretty. ] 21:09, 9 November 2006 (UTC)
	::::::Oh yes - the capital would give it away to me - but the general reader may not. I think there is less chance of confusion with the word "episode" though. Compare to the term "(character)" where I used "(Jericho character)" as a disambiguator; the word "character" by itself isn't really very specific, it could even refer to a non-fictional person, so I usually go with the full descriptor (series and "item") for characters. See ] -- ] 21:52, 9 November 2006 (UTC)
	:::::::With the character thing I've been leaning towards stuff like ] rather than ]. The term character may be confusing, what Jack Spicer am I talking about. But knowing it's the Xiaolin Showdown Jack Spicer, I don't actually need to know it's a character because I now know it isn't any other Jack Spicer. ] 22:33, 9 November 2006 (UTC)
	*(edconf) Arguably a "Star Trek episode" is more related to "Star Trek" than to "episode". The guideline you cite shouldn't be taken too far; technically a "book" is a kind of "media" or "object". ] 14:20, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

	== Other programs not in accordance with this guideline ==

	Milo Minderbinder made a good point above, that there are lots more television series not in compliance with this guideline than just the ''Star Trek'' series. ''Buffy the Vampire Slayer'' and ''Angel'', for instance, seem to follow the ''Star Trek'' model — I only just noticed this when ] came up as a redlink above. While we're dropping polite notes, we should probably drop one at the Buffyverse WikiProject too. Does anyone know what other series are preemptively disambiguating, and whether they have WikiProjects? —] <small>(] • ])</small> 07:15, 9 November 2006 (UTC)
	:]. -- ] 07:16, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

	Tons, actually...<br>
	stargate - ] ''(Project informed on 10/11)''<br>
	lost - ]<br>
	star trek - ]<br>
	buffy and angel - ] ''(Project informed on 10/11)''<br>
	4400 - ]<br>
	<s>some mortal combat series - ]</s> ''(done)''<br>

	episodes for these TV series are also in the Star Trek format:<br>
	]<br>
	<s>]</s> ''(done)''<br>
	]<br>
	]<br>
	]<br>
	<s>]</s> ''(fixed now)''<br>
	] ''(ehh...turned out Battlestar Galactica had two series, this one still needs fixing)'' <br>
	]<br>
	]<br>
	]<br>
	]<br>
	]<br>
	]<br>
	<s>]</s> (done)<br>
	]<br>
	<s>]</s> ''(false alarm, the disambiguation was actually needed on torchwood episodes)''<br>
	]<br>
	]<br>
	]<br>
	]<br>
	]<br>
	]<br>
	]<br>
	]<br>
	]<br>
	]<br>
	]<br>
	]<br>
	]<br>
	]<br>
	]<br>
	]<br>
	]<br>
	]<br>
	]<br>
	]<br>
	]<br>
	]<br>
	]<br>
	]<br>
	]<br>
	]<br>
	]<br>
	]<br>
	]<br>
	]<br>
	]<br>
	]<br>
	]<br>
	]

	That should be all of it.

	In other words, ''tons'' of article moving if people decide to go through with this. Any volunteers here? --] 11:15, 9 November 2006 (UTC)
	*Certainly. Picking one at random, I fixed Battlestar Galactica (both the old and the new episodes). That took me about fifteen minutes using tabbed browsing. ] 13:17, 9 November 2006 (UTC)
	:Thanks for the research, Yaksha. There's obviously a lot of work to be done.
	:As long as we're explaining our motives in edit summaries and/or talk pages and directing people here, I'd like to think we'll avoid being seen as insensitive thugs. Perhaps the polite notice I posted above is only necessary when there is discussion on talk pages about naming systems? If no one has discussed it for a particular show, I think we can assume that no one is too worried about it. --] ‹ <big>]\|]</big> › 17:51, 9 November 2006 (UTC)
	::It's probably best to put a note, maybe just in the edit summary, everywhere we make the changes. People who haven't been keeping up will be confused, and it could prevent a revert. - ] 18:14, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

	::: Since the "suffix" method is more prevalent than I'd thought, I strongly recommend that we not inform those WikiProjects/series with the language of, "There is already consensus," but instead that we tell them that there is currently discussion, and that we invite them to the party. I also recommend that we create a template to make this announcement. I overall like Toby's wording, but instead of announcing it as "consensus has already been reached," how about we state that there is an active discussion, to which any interested editors are invited? I think that would be a bit more respectful. For example:

	<blockquote>
	::::Greetings! There is currently an active discussion at ] about how to title television episode articles (specifically, when suffixes are and aren't a good idea). The goal of these discussions is to hopefully attain a Consensus, which will then be enforced on ''all'' episode articles of all television series, all over Misplaced Pages. Since the result of this discussion will very likely directly impact the naming of this particular article, any editors involved with this article are encouraged to join the discussion. IF YOU DO NOT PARTICIPATE, YOU SHOULD NOT COMPLAIN ABOUT THE RESULTING DECISION. If you would like to participate, please join the discussion at: ]. Thanks!
	</blockquote>

	:::Further, ''before'' we invite a bunch more people, can we ''please'' get rid of the old poll, and start something new, with wording that we're all in agreement with before it opens (and wording that doesn't change multiple times while it's running?). That would do a lot to allay my own concerns. For example, I'd like to see a question with wording like, "Should WikiProjects about a particular show, be allowed to make decisions that affect the article titles for that show, or must all decisions go through WP:NC-TV?" and "Should some television series be allowed to use a consistent naming convention where all episodes end with a suffix such as (<series> episode), or must all episodes be named strictly according to Misplaced Pages disambiguation guidelines, meaning no suffix unless there's already another article with the same title, elsewhere on Misplaced Pages? Note that this might mean that some series would then have a majority of episodes ''with'' suffixes, and a minority of episodes without, which could look odd in some cases." --] 19:10, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

	::::A new poll that's not confusing sounds good. "IF YOU DO NOT PARTICIPATE, YOU SHOULD NOT COMPLAIN ABOUT THE RESULTING DECISION" sounds a little harsh, I would leave that part out, otherwise a good idea. Maybe we should archive this page in preperation for the new poll. - ] 19:40, 9 November 2006 (UTC)
	:::::We already answered the question about removing the old poll. No. There's no reason to. If you want to start a new poll with new questions, go ahead. —] (]) 20:11, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

	::::Elonka, IMHO questions like that are not up for vote or discussion. These articles are part of Misplaced Pages and as had been mentioned repeatedly there is no logical reason why there should be exceptions. Wording in standards that pre-emptively allow for an exception then isn't a standard - its an option, and that's what we are trying to avoid. -- ] 20:43, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

	:::::I agree that there's no need for another poll. The conversation has superceded the poll, and a consensus has been reached (at least among the active participants in this discussion). We could formally close the poll above, if that would help, but I really think that another poll would be a waste of time.

			__TOC__
	:::::''However'', I do agree that we should politely inform all WikiProjects that have been using preemptive disambiguation of our discussion, and the direction it has gone. I'm thinking of something like this, based on Toby's proposed note:
	<blockquote>
	:::::::Greetings, <nameofseries> editors!
	:::::::As you may be aware, for the last several weeks there has been extensive discussion at ] about how Misplaced Pages articles on television episodes should be named. Editors from many areas of Misplaced Pages, including members of several different television WikiProjects, have worked together and come up with a ] that article titles should include disambiguating phrases only when there is another article on Misplaced Pages with the same name as the episode name. Thus, if you were creating episode articles for '']'', the episode ] would not need any disambiguation, whereas ] would, in order to differentiate it from ]. However, the guideline also recommends that ] exist as a redirect to the episode.

			== ] ==
	:::::::The discussion has been fairly well-advertised at the Village Pump, in many WikiProjects' talk pages and on the talk pages of many television program episode lists. However, the editors contributing to the discussion at ] felt that it was appropriate to make one last call for discussion before people started moving episode articles to new names.

			Hello, this is a notice that there is currently a requested move at ] in which it is being proposed to move it back to ] to provide further disambiguation from another series with the same title, which is currently located at ]. I have brought up the TV naming conventions and ], although other editors believe differently. Any comments there would be much appreciated! ] (]) 15:23, 30 July 2024 (UTC)
	:::::::We've noticed that many episodes of <nameofseries> are pre-emptively disambiguated: for example, <exampleepisode> is at <examplelocation>, even though there is no Misplaced Pages article at <examplelocationwithoutdisambig>. If you feel that there are strong reasons for this that have not ], please join the discussion at ]. (The current recommendations have been reached after much consideration, and are based on a long discussion about how to best comply with Misplaced Pages's general article naming scheme.)

			== Episode title disambiguations ==
	:::::::We appreciate the work that editors do in every area of Misplaced Pages, and want you to feel included in the decision-making process. Thank you for your help!
	</blockquote>
	:::::That's probably a bit wordy, but I was trying to balance the need for full inclusion (everybody has the right to participate in the discussion) with the practicalities of this debate (which I'm sure most of us are rather fatigued over — we don't want to have to explain the same points over and over again). What do you think? —] <small>(] • ])</small> 21:16, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

			So this started because of a comic, but the way TV episode articles are formatted was used as justification, but it made me wonder. Why are episode titles supposed to be disambiguated with (''Show Title'') instead of (''Show Title'' episode)? One reason I ask is because I'm pretty sure that specifying ''what'' something actually is instead of just what it's associated with was one of the main reasons for that big change to how articles about TV show seasons are titled earlier this year, wasn't it? Where the parenthesis around the seasons were removed; an example given at the time was something like, ] shouldn't be titled that way because it's not a "season 6" called "The Simpsons", it's season 6 of "The Simpsons". (edit: just saw the discussion is still on this page, see Alex_21's comment from 3 January 2024 )<br>
	:I crossed out ] from the list - it actually follows the standard convention, but may look otherwise at first glance because many episode titles are common phrases. For example, ] vs. ]. --] 21:01, 9 November 2006 (UTC)
			Yet while that format change proposal was successful, the same reasoning does not seem to be applied to episode titles (or characters apparently, looking further at this page). Going by the same logic behind the seasons proposal, a title like, say, ], would nonsensically suggest the article is about a "The Sopranos" called "College". Now I doubt anyone would actually think that, but then why did season pages need to change to follow that logic? Other types of media seem to also follow this reasoning, like how films are disambiguated with (''year'' film) instead of just (''year''). (edit: some other things like lists split up by year don't follow this trend, but I'm only talking about articles for individual media here.)<br>
			I doubt any serious proposal to change this would get much traction, but I'm just wondering what other people think, since it seems like something of a double standard. Or I might just be looking way too hard into it. ] (]) 08:01, 29 October 2024 (UTC)

			:It would likely be an even bigger undertaking to get this fixed than the season change was, but I agree that the current naming convention doesn't make much sense and is probably more in need of changing than the season articles were. I would support a change to "Episode Title (episode)" as the default disambiguation when there is already an article with the same name, and if there are multiple episodes with the same name then "Episode Title (''Series Title'' episode)". The same should apply to characters and other elements. - ] (]) 08:17, 29 October 2024 (UTC)
	::Yep. I actually turned ] into a disambiguation page, because there were pre-existing links to two different pop songs by that name... —] <small>(] • ])</small> 21:20, 9 November 2006 (UTC)
			::Any other interest in this? If others think it is a good idea but are unwilling to go through a complicated process of trying to update all the existing episode articles then we could just update the guideline to say either approach is okay for now and let editors move pages as they come across them. - ] (]) 08:50, 26 November 2024 (UTC)
			:::The season thing was a big undertaking but still got done it looks like. I think your suggestion is better than the way it's done now and I'd be interested in hearing others' opinions on that. But it feels like it's harder to get feedback in talk pages lately for some reason? ] (]) 08:18, 27 November 2024 (UTC)

			== Allowing disambiguation based on region ==
	I think it's a bit dicey to ask "Should WikiProjects about a particular show, be allowed to make decisions that affect the article titles for that show, or must all decisions go through WP:NC-TV?" The question basically asks if NC-TV should have any authority - if the end result is "no" then you might as well disband NC-TV completely. If you want to change the policy, propose a new wording of the policy. I think the wording of the current poll is just fine, if the validity is questioned because it changed during the poll, just run it again. Also, the issue isn't even whether TV shows must follow NC-TV - the shows in question violate ] and ]. If you really want to name episodes however you want, the proper course of action is to get those two changed (or at the very least post the same notice there and any similarly appropriate places). Trying to override those two from a subset of wikipedia doesn't seem fair to the rest of the editors. --] 21:23, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

			Should disambiguating by region (state/province/municipality, etc.) be allowed when disambiguating by year, country or genre is not appropriate?
	The list didn't actually take that long. Thanks to the fact that almost all "list of episode" articles use the same few templates. I just did a lot of "what links here" for the templates.

			I recently closed ] about three regional newscasts in the UK, all known as <i>BBC Look North</i>. In this case, the series are all regional programs in the same country, and only adding the years of premiere would be unclear for readers, so consensus was reached to disambiguate by region in the title despite the existing NCTV guidance. Another example is ]'s disambiguation from ].
	Yes, posting a note to the stargate project and the buffyverse project would be poliet, and i'm about to do that.

			Should this approach be considered as an acceptable alternative to include in the guideline?<span id="Frostly:1732319071947:Wikipedia_talkFTTCLNNaming_conventions_(television)" class="FTTCmt"> — ] (]) 23:44, 22 November 2024 (UTC)</span>
	Star Trek has already been informed on many talk pages, but there's be 0 response on any of them. I think it's safe to assume they're well informed but just don't care/mind.

			:That sounds acceptable to me if the standard disambiguation options did not adequately define each show. - ] (]) 08:45, 26 November 2024 (UTC)
	Most of the ppl in the lost and 4400 project are already here. And parrallel discussions were already going on in those two projects before they got bought here, so they're well informed.

			== What's a series and what's a program: looking for a clear definition ==
	As for the series without projects, let's just go ahead. We need to balance practicality with the need to include everyone. We should just make sure we always explain and link here on the summaries so it gives people a fair chance to come here and complain/debate the moves. --] 00:34, 10 November 2006 (UTC)

			A while ago I started moving a bunch of pages in accord to NCTV, which says series television should be disambiguated as "series" and non-series should be disambiguated as "program" (it's not exactly that, but that's roughly what matters). I was doing these without much knowledge of the guidelines, so I ended up moving a lot of reality TV pages that might have been series. The problem is that 1. I'm not sure if every move was 100% right or wrong and 2. I feel like to move it back I'd have to do a lot of complicated stuff. The rules are a bit confusing, too; the definition of series here is written as "shows made of episodes which may relate part of an unfolding story, feature recurring settings or characters, or express a unifying narrative theme." That makes it look like only fictional shows can be series, but the examples include reality shows and documentaries.
	:Okay, Buffyverse, Stargate and the mortal combat projects have been informed. I've cut out one of the paragraphs about preemtive disambiguation, because it's not needed...as every episode covered by the two projects already have proper articles. --] 00:46, 10 November 2006 (UTC)

			Anyways, the point is that I'm asking for help on what should be called a series and what should be called a program. Here are some pages I moved, categorized by how much I think they're a series:
	::Thanks, Yaksha. —] <small>(] • ])</small> 01:07, 10 November 2006 (UTC)
	:::Well...someone from the Mortal Kombat end responded by doing the moving themselves. They missed a few, so i'm just going to go ahead and mop up. --] 05:08, 10 November 2006 (UTC)

			Not a series - ], ], ], other ones I forgot probably
	Josiah, your version of the "polite note" is excellent; I was thinking of something along the same lines all day but haven't been able to get to a computer until now. :)

			''Probably'' not a series (dunno for sure) - ], ]
	Looking at this from the point of view from a new editor coming into the discussion, I wonder if it would be beneficial to:
	* Archive at least some of the extraordinarily long discussion on this talk page
	* Add a new section titled something like "Episode Article Names FAQ" that succinctly summarizes the most common concerns regarding the guideline along with tactful answers to those concerns as brought up here
	The second point here is served pretty well by ], but we might be able to make it easier for new people by restating that in a way that is oriented toward them.
	Does anyone else think this would be useful? I'd hate for anyone to be turned off by the sheer length of prose on this talk page, if they're just looking for some enlightenment on the naming convention. --] ‹ <big>]\|]</big> › 07:46, 10 November 2006 (UTC)
	::::I'm relunctant to archieve a discussion so recent, but this is....quite huge. Perhaps just archieve everything up to Josiah's previous summary? --] 08:56, 10 November 2006 (UTC)

			Probably a series - ], ], ]
	== Multi-part episodes ==

			IDK - ], ], ], ] ] ] 18:25, 2 December 2024 (UTC)
	I thought I'd check in here, as I've had to start a deletion review over an episode article that was deleted on the grounds that, according to guidelines, episodes with more than one part should be included entirely within the same article. Can anyone cite or otherwise verify this for me, or is it a load of hooey? --] 18:41, 9 November 2006 (UTC)
	:I don't know anywhere that says you ''have'' to do it as one, but there are features if that's what you want at ]. - ] 19:07, 9 November 2006 (UTC)
	::Hmm. I was sure I'd seen a guideline page that stated that multi-part articles should only have one article... Ah, there it is: ]. Kind of an obscure place for such a guideline, but there it is: "Multipart episodes should have only one article." For what it's worth, I agree. To me, the title of an episode is more significant than how many parts it happened to be broadcast in, especially considering the number of parts may differ between original broadcast and syndication/DVD, or different broadcast markets anyway. If the producers choose to use the same title for more than one part, it's probably better to keep them in the same article. -- ] 19:35, 9 November 2006 (UTC)
	:::If it's truly one episode, one entry is fine. If they have their own credits and different guest stars or whatever, I think they should get multiple entries. - ] 19:37, 9 November 2006 (UTC)
	::::That's still not grounds for a deletion. The pages should be merged and then left as redirects to keep the edit history in accordance with Misplaced Pages policy. ] 20:15, 9 November 2006 (UTC)
	:::::As it stands, very little would be lost in the deletion of the articles I'm currently asking about this for. Only some infobox information would need to be transcribed. The rest of the article is basically only a starting point for more to be added. And, as such, it has already been moved about. Thanks!--] 23:08, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

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Talk:Hawkeye (TV series)

Hello, this is a notice that there is currently a requested move at Talk:Hawkeye (TV series)#Requested move 28 July 2024 in which it is being proposed to move it back to Hawkeye (1994 TV series) to provide further disambiguation from another series with the same title, which is currently located at Hawkeye (miniseries). I have brought up the TV naming conventions and WP:SMALLDETAILS, although other editors believe differently. Any comments there would be much appreciated! Trailblazer101 (talk) 15:23, 30 July 2024 (UTC)

Episode title disambiguations

So this started because of a comic, but the way TV episode articles are formatted was used as justification, but it made me wonder. Why are episode titles supposed to be disambiguated with (Show Title) instead of (Show Title episode)? One reason I ask is because I'm pretty sure that specifying what something actually is instead of just what it's associated with was one of the main reasons for that big change to how articles about TV show seasons are titled earlier this year, wasn't it? Where the parenthesis around the seasons were removed; an example given at the time was something like, The Simpsons (season 6) shouldn't be titled that way because it's not a "season 6" called "The Simpsons", it's season 6 of "The Simpsons". (edit: just saw the discussion is still on this page, see Alex_21's comment from 3 January 2024 )
Yet while that format change proposal was successful, the same reasoning does not seem to be applied to episode titles (or characters apparently, looking further at this page). Going by the same logic behind the seasons proposal, a title like, say, College (The Sopranos), would nonsensically suggest the article is about a "The Sopranos" called "College". Now I doubt anyone would actually think that, but then why did season pages need to change to follow that logic? Other types of media seem to also follow this reasoning, like how films are disambiguated with (year film) instead of just (year). (edit: some other things like lists split up by year don't follow this trend, but I'm only talking about articles for individual media here.)
I doubt any serious proposal to change this would get much traction, but I'm just wondering what other people think, since it seems like something of a double standard. Or I might just be looking way too hard into it. Ringtail Raider (talk) 08:01, 29 October 2024 (UTC)

It would likely be an even bigger undertaking to get this fixed than the season change was, but I agree that the current naming convention doesn't make much sense and is probably more in need of changing than the season articles were. I would support a change to "Episode Title (episode)" as the default disambiguation when there is already an article with the same name, and if there are multiple episodes with the same name then "Episode Title (Series Title episode)". The same should apply to characters and other elements. - adamstom97 (talk) 08:17, 29 October 2024 (UTC)

Any other interest in this? If others think it is a good idea but are unwilling to go through a complicated process of trying to update all the existing episode articles then we could just update the guideline to say either approach is okay for now and let editors move pages as they come across them. - adamstom97 (talk) 08:50, 26 November 2024 (UTC)

The season thing was a big undertaking but still got done it looks like. I think your suggestion is better than the way it's done now and I'd be interested in hearing others' opinions on that. But it feels like it's harder to get feedback in talk pages lately for some reason? Ringtail Raider (talk) 08:18, 27 November 2024 (UTC)

Allowing disambiguation based on region

Should disambiguating by region (state/province/municipality, etc.) be allowed when disambiguating by year, country or genre is not appropriate?

I recently closed an RM discussion about three regional newscasts in the UK, all known as BBC Look North. In this case, the series are all regional programs in the same country, and only adding the years of premiere would be unclear for readers, so consensus was reached to disambiguate by region in the title despite the existing NCTV guidance. Another example is Big Brother (Quebec TV series)'s disambiguation from Big Brother Canada.

Should this approach be considered as an acceptable alternative to include in the guideline? — Frostly (talk) 23:44, 22 November 2024 (UTC)

That sounds acceptable to me if the standard disambiguation options did not adequately define each show. - adamstom97 (talk) 08:45, 26 November 2024 (UTC)

What's a series and what's a program: looking for a clear definition

A while ago I started moving a bunch of pages in accord to NCTV, which says series television should be disambiguated as "series" and non-series should be disambiguated as "program" (it's not exactly that, but that's roughly what matters). I was doing these without much knowledge of the guidelines, so I ended up moving a lot of reality TV pages that might have been series. The problem is that 1. I'm not sure if every move was 100% right or wrong and 2. I feel like to move it back I'd have to do a lot of complicated stuff. The rules are a bit confusing, too; the definition of series here is written as "shows made of episodes which may relate part of an unfolding story, feature recurring settings or characters, or express a unifying narrative theme." That makes it look like only fictional shows can be series, but the examples include reality shows and documentaries.

Anyways, the point is that I'm asking for help on what should be called a series and what should be called a program. Here are some pages I moved, categorized by how much I think they're a series:

Not a series - Vitamin, Sponge, Sunday Night, other ones I forgot probably

Probably not a series (dunno for sure) - Hitmaker (2016), Cool Kids

Probably a series - A2K, Dancing with the Stars Korea, Begin Again

IDK - Band of Brothers, Animals, Hitmaker (2014), Roommate Wuju Daisuki 18:25, 2 December 2024 (UTC)

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