Misplaced Pages

Talk:Brahma Kumaris: Difference between revisions

Article snapshot taken from Wikipedia with creative commons attribution-sharealike license. Give it a read and then ask your questions in the chat. We can research this topic together.
Browse history interactively← Previous editContent deleted Content addedVisualWikitext
Revision as of 16:49, 10 November 2006 edit195.82.106.244 (talk) →Jesselp - sign your contributions← Previous edit Latest revision as of 08:58, 24 July 2024 edit undoTrangaBellam (talk | contribs)Autopatrolled, Extended confirmed users, Page movers, Pending changes reviewers, Rollbackers22,563 edits →SourcesTag: 2017 wikitext editor 
Line 1: Line 1:
{{WP India|class=B|importance=|auto=yes}} {{Talk header|search=yes}}
{{WikiProject banner shell|collapsed=yes|class=B|1=
<!--Template:Archivebox begins-->
{{WikiProject Yoga|importance=mid}}
{| class="infobox" width="180"
{{WikiProject India|importance=low}}
|-
{{WikiProject Spirituality|importance=mid}}
!align="center"|]
{{WikiProject Hinduism|importance=mid}}
]
{{WikiProject Women's History|importance=low}}
----
{{WikiProject Organizations|importance=Top}}
|-
{{WikiProject Religion|importance=Top|NRM=yes|NRMImp=Top}}
|align="center"|]
{{WikiProject Veganism and Vegetarianism|class=C|importance=Mid}}
|-
}}
|align="center"|]
{{Indian English}}
|-
{{Connected contributor|User1=Bksimonb |U1-declared=yes}}
|align="center"|]
{{User:MiszaBot/config
|-
|archiveheader = {{aan}}
|align="center"|]
|maxarchivesize = 150K
|-
|counter = 16
|align="center"|]
|minthreadsleft = 5
|-
|minthreadstoarchive = 1
|align="center"|]
|algo = old(30d)
|-
|align="center"|] |archive = Talk:Brahma Kumaris/Archive %(counter)d
|} }}

<!--Template:Archivebox ends--> <!--Template:Archivebox ends-->


== Sources ==
==The BKWSU IT team's response to Mediation request==

I put in a over the issue of using the BKWSU's own published material as being citable and referenceable. There appeared to be no point in entering into discuss or editing until this matter was resolved by a third party. I, of course, see no objection in using BKWSU produced material and indeed have requested the BKWSU IT team to produce even more for inclusion - only for the request to be ignored.

*The Request for Mediation has been rejected due to the other editors refusing to participate. Could we just clarify what is going on here? Is it correct to say that none of the Brahma Kumaris that are engaged in re-writing this topic article in line with the organization's current PR were willing to accept third party mediation?

'''So, having tried that, the next step I am going to take is to put in a Request for Arbitration over the same issue.'''

In the meanwhile, there seems to be no point in engaging in repeating the citations and references already given on both the topic article and discussion page when the Brahma Kumaris editors are going to continue to ignore them. But, thank you Luis for confirming the channelling issue in the archived discussion, am I correct to say that gives others the green light to re-institute it into the topic?

*'''Given your quoted academic use of Jagdish Chander's book "Adi Dev", does that mean that it is accepted by the other editors as a citable reference?'''

Thanks. ] 11:38, 9 November 2006 (UTC)


:Dear .244,
:Glad to see you are back!
:It is interesting to note how none of your ex-bk supporters did not post their agreement. I wonder what is the matter with your team...

:I would suggest next time to request for input in this page before you decide to do something. You are no longer the only one with unlimited access to this page, thus if you want to go on your own without requesting support or input... Be my guest.

:As far as Chander. I have not quoted him. Walliss and other experts in this area with Ph.D degrees have. I have quoted them in turn. That is the way academia works and the way Misplaced Pages would like us to cite our reliable sources.

:Be careful with your words about BK "PR." This is a fully researched material, non bias, written by experts in the field. One last thing, It seems that there is a tendency here to endlessly repeat what was stated before. I do not belong to the IT Team and... you cannot use BK material because: a) It is non reliable source (unless used by researchers) b) You are not a Brahma Kumaris member but antagonist to this organization and thus using it for your own purposes (to defame the institution)as stated by the Misplaced Pages policy about Reliability. c) You are not an expert in the field. Hope I will not repeat this again.

:Best Wishes, ] 14:11, 9 November 2006 (UTC)


::Read what it says and stop avoiding the issue, "given your quoted academic use of Jagdish Chander's book "Adi Dev", does that mean that it is accepted by the other editors as a citable reference?". I appreciate that you have no intention of discussing these matters but I want your response recorded.

::'''I am sorry but you are plain wrong in your prejudicial interpretation. Self-published sources are wholly acceptable''', see; .
::*Firstly, the issue is "verifiability" when dealing with facts. A source need not be singularly academic. In case of opinion, fine; state the opposing schools of academic thoughts. But reported facts stand alone as long as the source is reputable and verifiable.
::*Secondly, one does not have to be a Brahma Kumari to record what has been published by Brahma Kumaris and as the Brahma Kumaris state that they have no official membership any way, your position is entirely moot. Such primary sources can be used to make "descriptive claims that can be checked by anyone without specialist knowledge" (see policy notes).
::] 15:20, 9 November 2006 (UTC)


:::Dear .244,

:::Please go back to the archives. There we discussed the same issue. Please read your link fully. You are against Brahma Kumaris. You use Brahma Kumaris materials to show your animosity.Your BKINFO site is proof of that.Please do not repeat again what we talked before.
:::You either provide reliable cited resources by experts on the field or you simply cannot edit the article here. It is very simple.

:::Your membership is ABK (against Brahma Kumaris.) That is not moot. Just citations please, citations... don't try to find "loopholes" here. You have until Saturday before changes take place.
:::Best Wishes, ] 16:24, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

==Use of repeated organized physical violence by BKs against PBKs==

OK. It has taken considerable effort but I have an increasing number of referenced hospital and police reports from the Indian States of Haryana, Maharashtra, Rajasthan and Karnataka. These are primary sources but verifiable by date and reference number. Although, I agree, secondary sources are preferable, as they refer to current affairs according to Wiki policy they would be acceptable.

*Is this agreeable to other editors?

Thank you.] 15:20, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

:Dear .244,
:It seems that your are back with your animosity again. S here I go one more time:
:Could you provide your citations? Misplaced Pages is not an obscure newspaper where you can place your "juicy gossips"..As far as I am concerned you have never provided any type of reliable resource for absolutely anything in this article.
:Needs to be researched data by experts in this field.

:* No, this is not agreeable unless you have reliable sources. Best Wishes, ] 16:24, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

== Different page for PBK ==
This wiki page is about BKWSU, there does not need to have so much information on the PBK'S, it only needs to be mentioned. This section should be removed JP

:Dear JP,

:Absolutely right on that one.

:Best, ] 18:06, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

== Channelling and mediumship ==

'''I want to discuss the re-institution of the references to channelling and mediumship.'''

Reference of this appears in documents by Howells, Wallis and Whaling, and naturally in the organization's own literature and "scriptures" called the Murlis. But it has been removed by the BK operating together to re-edit this article.

I can understand why the organization and its members would want to whitewash this out of the article, it does not go along with the current PR, UN status etc and might put individual off from engaging with its practises; but in all fairness the article would not be complete if it was not mentioned.

There would appear to be 5 elements to this;

*The direct possession of Lekhraj Kirpalani by the entity since named after the Hindu God Shiva, aka Shiva Baba.
*The mediumistic channelling of this entity through Kirpalani by way of speach and actions
*The mediumistic channelling of this entity through a BK follower called Gulzar by way of speach and actions
*The mediumistic channelling of Lekhraj Kirpalani through a BK follower called Gulzar by way of speach and actions
*The mediumistic channelling of Shiva through BK followers

With respect to the last, I refer to the easily referenced and verifiable Sakar Murli dated 11/02/2003 where it says, "''If you are sometimes confused reading out the Murli, Shiv Baba will come and speak the Murli. Then children don't reven realise that Shiva Baba came and helped. You can't even tell if it is Shiva Bab speaking or Brahma Baba speaking. You should realise that Shiv Baba came and spoke the Murli.''"

Looking at the experts we have reference to "someone entering" Lekhraj Kirpalani, the "incarnation and descent into", channelling via Gulzar, a different voice speaking. Looking at Walliss and Chander we have reference to Kirpalani's eyes and body glowing red which in case there is any doubt has been helpfully pictorized by the organization in a promotional video here, . The Murli references are endlessly clear, once we have an agreement on whether they constitute acceptable citations. This is all rather different, and more direct, than the fey "inspiration" the BKWSU are claiming in public now and the public has a right to know.

*'''It is also an important difference to classic Raja Yoga and so central to BK faith and practise that it should be highlighted at the beginning of the article as before'''.

Luis, you have attempted to twist a fair and impartial statement regarding this channelled entity being "God" without providing any acceptable citation that it is actually "God" claiming that allegedly is a "weasel word". I wrote that the BKWSU "alledge" that the spiritual entity that is being channelled through Gulzar and Lekhraj is God. We cannot know that it is. Academically, it would not be widely accepted that it was. And so, I think that it is safe that we stick to "allegedly God" because the very specific concept the BKWSU has of God is so widely different from any other religion.

Your comments please. ] 15:19, 10 November 2006 (UTC)

:re: meeting BapDada (the combined form of "God" Shiva and the spirit of the deceased Lekraj Kirpalani) via a '''medium''' at the organization's headquarters in India, I can also add Joachim Finger, 1999. As you know, the current season for BKs to personally listen and speak to "God" via the medium is currently going and so can one of you ask him what he thinks of this business and, especially, the PBKs? Thanks. ] 15:31, 10 November 2006 (UTC)

==40 years Confluence Age and the PBKs==
I see someone has removed the reference to the predicated date if Destruction in 1976 taking place at the end of a 40 years Confluence Age. The references and clear, easily verifiable and so this should be re-instituted. I appreciate that it does not fit the current PR of the BKWSU which seems to exist on a rolling 5 to 10 years even since this failure, but it is a key element to understanding BK teachings and modus operandi.

The PBK section is fine. They also have their own topic page. It is worth noting that it is only the BKs that see the PBKs as not being part of the "Godly Family". The PBKs see themselves are being part of the same organization. We have references to this is the references you have provided. ] 15:19, 10 November 2006 (UTC)


:user: 195.82.106.244. the pbks have nothing to do with the bks, they are much like some of the business's that were under Names or Front Organizations such as Relax kids etc. the pbk was started off by someone taking bk philosophy conducting a new rendition of it.
:] 16:21, 10 November 2006 (UTC)


::Your opinion contradicts the quoted experts and is only your opinion. They are referred to as a breakway group in both the expert opinion and the topic. Acceptable self-published material state that they comprise of BK members, follow BK principles, believe in BK teaching and are part of the one and same spiritual organization. ] 16:46, 10 November 2006 (UTC)

== Oxford Leadership Academy ==
Stop being be silly, just because the OLA was co founded by a Bk that does not make it a front.
go to there website they are an management consulting company.

it will be removed... again....

http://www.oxfordleadership.com

] 16:21, 10 November 2006 (UTC)

:The section refers to fronts and business run by BKs. I think "there" in your comment should be written "their". They, the OLA teach so-called "Ancient Raja Yoga", although they mean BK Raja Yoga, at their courses and so the reference is fine.
:] 16:40, 10 November 2006 (UTC)


== Janki Foundation == === No ===


* Anything published by {{tq|brahmakumaris.org}} or {{tq|Om Mandali, Pharmacy Printing Press}} or {{tq|B.K. Raja Yoga Center for the Brahma Kumaris World Spiritual University}} ought to be treated as flatly unreliable.
Janki foundation will be removed it again created by a bk, however has nothing to do with BKWSU.
* ], again, ought to be treated as flatly unreliable. She had no academic expertise whatsoever and as far as I remember, what prompted her very-apolegetic portrayal of the movement was her husband veering away with the BKs into celibacy.


=== Meh ===
It was lunched at Royal College of Physicians, London, The Janki Foundation is about supporting research and awareness in the field of health and spirituality.


* Encyclopedia entries —— be it the Routledge Encyclopedia of New Religious Movements ''or'' else — ought to be sparingly used.
http://www.jankifoundation.org/about_us/index.php
* Whaling's ''Understanding the Brahma Kumaris'' (Dunedin University Press; 2012) is a primer aimed at undergraduates. A merrily sympathetic treatment, in what is one of the two academic monographs on the subject, it is .
] 16:21, 10 November 2006 (UTC)
* ] and Tomlinson are anthropologists by training; the latter, particularly of practiced religion. So, I have not much qualms with using ''Brahma Kumaris: Purity and the Globalization of Faith'' (Springer; 2012) but we ought not depend on it for reconstructing the curious history of Brahmakumaris (BK).
* ]'s thesis from Monash University.


=== Yes ===
:It was lunched at Royal College of Physicians, London where Brahma Kumari Dr Sarah Eagger is the chairperson of the "Spirituality and Psychiatry special Interest Group". It supports the BK run and staffed GLOBAL HOSPITAL AND RESEARCH CENTRE and it teaches and promotes Raja Yoga meditiation. The President Janki Kripalani, is an administrative head of the BKWSU and it is supproted by two BK run organizations, Point of Life Inc and India Care. Amongst its advisors, although misleadingly not listed as such, are other senior BKs such as '''Dr Hansa Raval'''. We are documenting the BKWSU and how it works. Its works through status by assocation and creating such fronts. Expert opinion quoted by BK Luis supports this.


* Publications by John Walliss, esp. ''The Brahma Kumaris as a Reflexive Tradition: Responding to Late Modernity'' (Motilal Banarsidass; 2007).
:'''How do you qualify it has nothing to do with the BKWSU?''' ] 16:36, 10 November 2006 (UTC)
* Prem Chowdhury's masterly ''Marriage, Sexuality and the Female 'Ascetic': Understanding a Hindu Sect'' (EPW; 1996).
* Publications by Lawrence A. Babb.
* Ramsay's article in ''Handbook of Hinduism in Europe''.
] (]) 08:57, 24 July 2024 (UTC)

Latest revision as of 08:58, 24 July 2024

This is the talk page for discussing improvements to the Brahma Kumaris article.
This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject.
Article policies
Find sources: Google (books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL
Archives: Index, 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16Auto-archiving period: 30 days 
This article is rated B-class on Misplaced Pages's content assessment scale.
It is of interest to multiple WikiProjects.
WikiProject iconYoga Mid‑importance
WikiProject iconThis article is within the scope of WikiProject Yoga, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Yoga, Hatha yoga, Yoga as exercise and related articles on Misplaced Pages. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.YogaWikipedia:WikiProject YogaTemplate:WikiProject YogaYoga
MidThis article has been rated as Mid-importance on the project's importance scale.
WikiProject iconIndia Low‑importance
WikiProject iconThis article is within the scope of WikiProject India, which aims to improve Misplaced Pages's coverage of India-related topics. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page.IndiaWikipedia:WikiProject IndiaTemplate:WikiProject IndiaIndia
LowThis article has been rated as Low-importance on the project's importance scale.
WikiProject iconSpirituality Mid‑importance
WikiProject iconThis article is within the scope of WikiProject Spirituality, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of spirituality-related subjects on Misplaced Pages. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.SpiritualityWikipedia:WikiProject SpiritualityTemplate:WikiProject SpiritualitySpirituality
MidThis article has been rated as Mid-importance on the project's importance scale.
WikiProject iconHinduism Mid‑importance
WikiProject iconThis article is within the scope of WikiProject Hinduism, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Hinduism on Misplaced Pages. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.HinduismWikipedia:WikiProject HinduismTemplate:WikiProject HinduismHinduism
MidThis article has been rated as Mid-importance on the project's importance scale.
WikiProject iconWomen's History Low‑importance
WikiProject iconThis article is within the scope of WikiProject Women's History, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Women's history and related articles on Misplaced Pages. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.Women's HistoryWikipedia:WikiProject Women's HistoryTemplate:WikiProject Women's HistoryWomen's History
LowThis article has been rated as Low-importance on the project's importance scale.
WikiProject iconOrganizations Top‑importance
WikiProject iconThis article is within the scope of WikiProject Organizations, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Organizations on Misplaced Pages. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.OrganizationsWikipedia:WikiProject OrganizationsTemplate:WikiProject Organizationsorganization
TopThis article has been rated as Top-importance on the project's importance scale.
WikiProject iconReligion: New religious movements Top‑importance
WikiProject iconThis article is within the scope of WikiProject Religion, a project to improve Misplaced Pages's articles on Religion-related subjects. Please participate by editing the article, and help us assess and improve articles to good and 1.0 standards, or visit the wikiproject page for more details.ReligionWikipedia:WikiProject ReligionTemplate:WikiProject ReligionReligion
TopThis article has been rated as Top-importance on the project's importance scale.
Taskforce icon
This article is supported by New religious movements work group (assessed as Top-importance).
WikiProject iconVeganism and Vegetarianism C‑class Mid‑importance
WikiProject iconThis article is within the scope of WikiProject Veganism and Vegetarianism, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of veganism and vegetarianism on Misplaced Pages. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.Veganism and VegetarianismWikipedia:WikiProject Veganism and VegetarianismTemplate:WikiProject Veganism and VegetarianismVeganism and Vegetarianism
CThis article has been given a rating which conflicts with the project-independent quality rating in the banner shell. Please resolve this conflict if possible.
MidThis article has been rated as Mid-importance on the project's importance scale.
This article is written in Indian English, which has its own spelling conventions (colour, travelled, centre, analysed, defence) and some terms that are used in it may be different or absent from other varieties of English. According to the relevant style guide, this should not be changed without broad consensus.
The following Misplaced Pages contributor has declared a personal or professional connection to the subject of this article. Relevant policies and guidelines may include conflict of interest, autobiography, and neutral point of view.


Sources

No

  • Anything published by brahmakumaris.org or Om Mandali, Pharmacy Printing Press or B.K. Raja Yoga Center for the Brahma Kumaris World Spiritual University ought to be treated as flatly unreliable.
  • Hodgkinson, again, ought to be treated as flatly unreliable. She had no academic expertise whatsoever and as far as I remember, what prompted her very-apolegetic portrayal of the movement was her husband veering away with the BKs into celibacy.

Meh

  • Encyclopedia entries —— be it the Routledge Encyclopedia of New Religious Movements or else — ought to be sparingly used.
  • Whaling's Understanding the Brahma Kumaris (Dunedin University Press; 2012) is a primer aimed at undergraduates. A merrily sympathetic treatment, in what is one of the two academic monographs on the subject, it is quite flawed.
  • Manderson and Tomlinson are anthropologists by training; the latter, particularly of practiced religion. So, I have not much qualms with using Brahma Kumaris: Purity and the Globalization of Faith (Springer; 2012) but we ought not depend on it for reconstructing the curious history of Brahmakumaris (BK).
  • Tamasin Ramsay's thesis from Monash University.

Yes

  • Publications by John Walliss, esp. The Brahma Kumaris as a Reflexive Tradition: Responding to Late Modernity (Motilal Banarsidass; 2007).
  • Prem Chowdhury's masterly Marriage, Sexuality and the Female 'Ascetic': Understanding a Hindu Sect (EPW; 1996).
  • Publications by Lawrence A. Babb.
  • Ramsay's article in Handbook of Hinduism in Europe.

TrangaBellam (talk) 08:57, 24 July 2024 (UTC)

Categories: