| Revision as of 15:18, 13 November 2006 editJossi (talk | contribs)72,880 edits →Response to Admin Jossi← Previous edit |
Latest revision as of 08:58, 24 July 2024 edit undoTrangaBellam (talk | contribs)Autopatrolled, Extended confirmed users, Page movers, Pending changes reviewers, Rollbackers22,563 edits →SourcesTag: 2017 wikitext editor |
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== Sources == |
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==The BKWSU IT team's response to Mediation request== |
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I put in a over the issue of using the BKWSU's own published material as being citable and referenceable. There appeared to be no point in entering into discuss or editing until this matter was resolved by a third party. I, of course, see no objection in using BKWSU produced material and indeed have requested the BKWSU IT team to produce even more for inclusion - only for the request to be ignored. |
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*The Request for Mediation has been rejected due to the other editors refusing to participate. Could we just clarify what is going on here? Is it correct to say that none of the Brahma Kumaris that are engaged in re-writing this topic article in line with the organization's current PR were willing to accept third party mediation? |
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'''So, having tried that, the next step I am going to take is to put in a Request for Arbitration over the same issue.''' |
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In the meanwhile, there seems to be no point in engaging in repeating the citations and references already given on both the topic article and discussion page when the Brahma Kumaris editors are going to continue to ignore them. But, thank you Luis for confirming the channelling issue in the archived discussion, am I correct to say that gives others the green light to re-institute it into the topic? |
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*'''Given your quoted academic use of Jagdish Chander's book "Adi Dev", does that mean that it is accepted by the other editors as a citable reference?''' |
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Thanks. ] 11:38, 9 November 2006 (UTC) |
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:Dear .244, |
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:Glad to see you are back! |
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:It is interesting to note how none of your ex-bk supporters did not post their agreement. I wonder what is the matter with your team... |
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:I would suggest next time to request for input in this page before you decide to do something. You are no longer the only one with unlimited access to this page, thus if you want to go on your own without requesting support or input... Be my guest. |
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:As far as Chander. I have not quoted him. Walliss and other experts in this area with Ph.D degrees have. I have quoted them in turn. That is the way academia works and the way Misplaced Pages would like us to cite our reliable sources. |
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:Be careful with your words about BK "PR." This is a fully researched material, non bias, written by experts in the field. One last thing, It seems that there is a tendency here to endlessly repeat what was stated before. I do not belong to the IT Team and... you cannot use BK material because: a) It is non reliable source (unless used by researchers) b) You are not a Brahma Kumaris member but antagonist to this organization and thus using it for your own purposes (to defame the institution)as stated by the Misplaced Pages policy about Reliability. c) You are not an expert in the field. Hope I will not repeat this again. |
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:Best Wishes, ] 14:11, 9 November 2006 (UTC) |
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::Read what it says and stop avoiding the issue, "given your quoted academic use of Jagdish Chander's book "Adi Dev", does that mean that it is accepted by the other editors as a citable reference?". I appreciate that you have no intention of discussing these matters but I want your response recorded. |
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::'''I am sorry but you are plain wrong in your prejudicial interpretation. Self-published sources are wholly acceptable''', see; . |
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::*Firstly, the issue is "verifiability" when dealing with facts. A source need not be singularly academic. In case of opinion, fine; state the opposing schools of academic thoughts. But reported facts stand alone as long as the source is reputable and verifiable. |
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::*Secondly, one does not have to be a Brahma Kumari to record what has been published by Brahma Kumaris and as the Brahma Kumaris state that they have no official membership any way, your position is entirely moot. Such primary sources can be used to make "descriptive claims that can be checked by anyone without specialist knowledge" (see policy notes). |
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::] 15:20, 9 November 2006 (UTC) |
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:::Dear .244, |
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:::Please go back to the archives. There we discussed the same issue. Please read your link fully. You are against Brahma Kumaris. You use Brahma Kumaris materials to show your animosity.Your BKINFO site is proof of that.Please do not repeat again what we talked before. |
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:::You either provide reliable cited resources by experts on the field or you simply cannot edit the article here. It is very simple. |
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:::Your membership is ABK (against Brahma Kumaris.) That is not moot. Just citations please, citations... don't try to find "loopholes" here. You have until Saturday before changes take place. |
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:::Best Wishes, ] 16:24, 9 November 2006 (UTC) |
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==Use of repeated organized physical violence by BKs against PBKs== |
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OK. It has taken considerable effort but I have an increasing number of referenced hospital and police reports from the Indian States of Haryana, Maharashtra, Rajasthan and Karnataka. These are primary sources but verifiable by date and reference number. Although, I agree, secondary sources are preferable, as they refer to current affairs according to Wiki policy they would be acceptable. |
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*Is this agreeable to other editors? |
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Thank you.] 15:20, 9 November 2006 (UTC) |
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:Dear .244, |
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:It seems that your are back with your animosity again. S here I go one more time: |
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:Could you provide your citations? Misplaced Pages is not an obscure newspaper where you can place your "juicy gossips"..As far as I am concerned you have never provided any type of reliable resource for absolutely anything in this article. |
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:Needs to be researched data by experts in this field. |
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:* No, this is not agreeable unless you have reliable sources. Best Wishes, ] 16:24, 9 November 2006 (UTC) |
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== Different page for PBK == |
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This wiki page is about BKWSU, there does not need to have so much information on the PBK'S, it only needs to be mentioned. This section should be removed JP |
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:Dear JP, |
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:Absolutely right on that one. |
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:Best, ] 18:06, 9 November 2006 (UTC) |
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== Channelling and mediumship == |
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'''I want to discuss the re-institution of the references to channelling and mediumship.''' |
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Reference of this appears in documents by Howells, Wallis and Whaling, and naturally in the organization's own literature and "scriptures" called the Murlis. But it has been removed by the BK operating together to re-edit this article. |
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I can understand why the organization and its members would want to whitewash this out of the article, it does not go along with the current PR, UN status etc and might put individual off from engaging with its practises; but in all fairness the article would not be complete if it was not mentioned. |
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There would appear to be 5 elements to this; |
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*The direct possession of Lekhraj Kirpalani by the entity since named after the Hindu God Shiva, aka Shiva Baba. |
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*The mediumistic channelling of this entity through Kirpalani by way of speach and actions |
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*The mediumistic channelling of this entity through a BK follower called Gulzar by way of speach and actions |
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*The mediumistic channelling of Lekhraj Kirpalani through a BK follower called Gulzar by way of speach and actions |
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*The mediumistic channelling of Shiva through BK followers |
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With respect to the last, I refer to the easily referenced and verifiable Sakar Murli dated 11/02/2003 where it says, "''If you are sometimes confused reading out the Murli, Shiv Baba will come and speak the Murli. Then children don't reven realise that Shiva Baba came and helped. You can't even tell if it is Shiva Bab speaking or Brahma Baba speaking. You should realise that Shiv Baba came and spoke the Murli.''" |
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Looking at the experts we have reference to "someone entering" Lekhraj Kirpalani, the "incarnation and descent into", channelling via Gulzar, a different voice speaking. Looking at Walliss and Chander we have reference to Kirpalani's eyes and body glowing red which in case there is any doubt has been helpfully pictorized by the organization in a promotional video here, . The Murli references are endlessly clear, once we have an agreement on whether they constitute acceptable citations. This is all rather different, and more direct, than the fey "inspiration" the BKWSU are claiming in public now and the public has a right to know. |
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*'''It is also an important difference to classic Raja Yoga and so central to BK faith and practise that it should be highlighted at the beginning of the article as before'''. |
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Luis, you have attempted to twist a fair and impartial statement regarding this channelled entity being "God" without providing any acceptable citation that it is actually "God" claiming that allegedly is a "weasel word". I wrote that the BKWSU "alledge" that the spiritual entity that is being channelled through Gulzar and Lekhraj is God. We cannot know that it is. Academically, it would not be widely accepted that it was. And so, I think that it is safe that we stick to "allegedly God" because the very specific concept the BKWSU has of God is so widely different from any other religion. |
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Your comments please. ] 15:19, 10 November 2006 (UTC) |
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:re: meeting BapDada (the combined form of "God" Shiva and the spirit of the deceased Lekraj Kirpalani) via a '''medium''' at the organization's headquarters in India, I can also add Joachim Finger, 1999. As you know, the current season for BKs to personally listen and speak to "God" via the medium is currently going and so can one of you ask him what he thinks of this business and, especially, the PBKs? Thanks. ] 15:31, 10 November 2006 (UTC) |
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==40 years Confluence Age and the PBKs== |
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I see someone has removed the reference to the predicated date if Destruction in 1976 taking place at the end of a 40 years Confluence Age. The references and clear, easily verifiable and so this should be re-instituted. I appreciate that it does not fit the current PR of the BKWSU which seems to exist on a rolling 5 to 10 years even since this failure, but it is a key element to understanding BK teachings and modus operandi. |
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The PBK section is fine. They also have their own topic page. It is worth noting that it is only the BKs that see the PBKs as not being part of the "Godly Family". The PBKs see themselves are being part of the same organization. We have references to this is the references you have provided. ] 15:19, 10 November 2006 (UTC) |
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:user: 195.82.106.244. the pbks have nothing to do with the bks, they are much like some of the business's that were under Names or Front Organizations such as Relax kids etc. the pbk was started off by someone taking bk philosophy conducting a new rendition of it. |
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:] 16:21, 10 November 2006 (UTC) |
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::Your opinion contradicts the quoted experts and is only your opinion. They are referred to as a breakway group in both the expert opinion and the topic. Acceptable self-published material state that they comprise of BK members, follow BK principles, believe in BK teaching and are part of the one and same spiritual organization. ] 16:46, 10 November 2006 (UTC) |
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:::if the expert said so then it is so. ] 16:40, 10 November 2006 (UTC) |
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== Oxford Leadership Academy == |
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Stop being be silly, just because the OLA was co founded by a Bk that does not make it a front. |
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go to there website they are an management consulting company. |
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it will be removed... again.... |
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http://www.oxfordleadership.com |
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] 16:21, 10 November 2006 (UTC) |
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:The section refers to fronts and business run by BKs. I think "there" in your comment should be written "their". They, the OLA teach so-called "Ancient Raja Yoga", although they mean BK Raja Yoga, at their courses and so the reference is fine. |
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:] 16:40, 10 November 2006 (UTC) |
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::ello 195.82.106.244 |
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::Just did a search on there website, and there was no result for Ancient Raja Yoga. Why would they though, that are a management consulting company, they have clients like McD's BA, Massive international. |
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::] 17:01, 10 November 2006 (UTC) |
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== Janki Foundation == |
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Janki foundation will be removed it again created by a bk, however has nothing to do with BKWSU. |
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It was lunched at Royal College of Physicians, London, The Janki Foundation is about supporting research and awareness in the field of health and spirituality. |
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http://www.jankifoundation.org/about_us/index.php |
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] 16:21, 10 November 2006 (UTC) |
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:It was lunched at Royal College of Physicians, London where Brahma Kumari Dr Sarah Eagger is the chairperson of the "Spirituality and Psychiatry special Interest Group". It supports the BK run and staffed GLOBAL HOSPITAL AND RESEARCH CENTRE and it teaches and promotes Raja Yoga meditiation. The President Janki Kripalani, is an administrative head of the BKWSU and it is supproted by two BK run organizations, Point of Life Inc and India Care. Amongst its advisors, although misleadingly not listed as such, are other senior BKs such as '''Dr Hansa Raval'''. We are documenting the BKWSU and how it works. Its works through status by assocation and creating such fronts. Expert opinion quoted by BK Luis supports this. |
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:'''How do you qualify it has nothing to do with the BKWSU?''' ] 16:36, 10 November 2006 (UTC) |
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If more then one member of the bkwsu decided to start up something together this would count as a front? |
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JPJP 12:03, 12 November 2006 (UTC) |
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==The Mantra: Reliable Sources == |
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Dear .244, |
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I would like to invite you to read the current article, if you have not done it or to re-read it if you have. In reference to "channeling" reliable sources have been provided citing experts in the field which mentions about Dadi Gulzar and the way the messages are received. The words "channelled messages" is clearly spelled out to satisfy those with a predilection to it. As far as "attempting to twist a fair an impartial statement." Please submit proof of that, otherwise it will be considered defamation. 99% of the material in the current BK page is quoted from experts in the field. Same holds true about Patanjali. His name has been mentioned as well as the difference between Raja Yoga and his teachings (they are not the same.) Any reader who would like to obtain further information can go ahead and look up the words in wikipedia. |
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Best Wishes, ] 17:18, 10 November 2006 (UTC) |
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== Rest of Article == |
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As stated before, tomorrow around Noon EST, I will be changing the rest of the article UNLESS reliable sources are shown. That means: |
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a) citations supporting what is currently stated in the article. |
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b) documents which are easily downloaded by anyone to verify the contents. |
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Otherwise, this is the way it will look tomorrow: |
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7 day course |
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Wallis when referring to "world service" which was started in 1952, states:"Lekhraj had from the very beginning published numerous pamphlets and written a huge amount of letters to important national and international figures in which he interpreted contemporary events with reference to his revealed knowledge. Rather, this marked an intensification of the process, with seven-lesson courses in the group's teachings being offered to outsiders." An overview of the seven-lesson course can be found here:http://www.bkwsu.org/whatwedo/courses/fcirym under "Foundation Course in Raja Yoga Meditation." and here: http://www.brahmakumaris.com/Courses/index.htm under "foundation courses in meditation." |
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From World Rejection to Ambivalence:The development in Millenarianism in the Brahma Kumaris." by John Wallis. Journal of Contemporary Religion, Vol.14,N 3, 1999 |
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The Advance Party (PBK) |
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Wallis mentions the advent of a movement which may be seen as an "internal response to the University's world ambivalence;" Wallis refers to them as the Advance Party. http://www.shivbaba.org.pl/ Visit site for further information. |
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Best Wishes, |
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] 17:18, 10 November 2006 (UTC) |
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:OK thats good. |
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:] 17:03, 10 November 2006 (UTC) |
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==Changes made== |
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As stated, changes have been made. I suggest we concentrate on the links as well. Links must reflect the material on the page. Obviously, there are quite a few of them which do not reflect that. Same holds true for Bibliography. Time to check those. |
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Best Wishes, ] 18:43, 11 November 2006 (UTC) |
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== Improving this article == |
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I came to take a look at this article after one of the involved editors placed a comment in my talk page. I have tagged several sections with the {{tl|unreferenced}} tag, as the material in these sections are not supported by any reliable source as required by our ] policy. I also tagged one section with the {{tl|cleanup-rewrite}} as it consist of long quotes from a source without any narrative. The source's quotes need to be summarized rather than using such extensive quotations. Think of the reader: as it stands now this article is quite hard to read and too long. A better lead wold be also nice to have. See ] for some guidelines. ] <small>] • ]</small> 03:34, 12 November 2006 (UTC) |
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A point of clarification: Unless sources are provided for the unreferenced material within a reasonable amount of time, that material needs to be removed from the article. As per ] the burden is on the editor adding material. ] <small>] • ]</small> 19:19, 12 November 2006 (UTC) |
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==Response to Admin Jossi== |
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I will follow Jossi's advice on giving you (.244 and "bkinfo" and TalkAbout) some additional days to provide reliable sources. |
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As Jossi stated here it goes the "official" statement: |
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'''Unless sources are provided by Friday November 17th. The material in section "controversy" and section "Names or front organizaions" and the section "splinter groups" will be removed."''' |
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=== No === |
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Please be aware that plenty of days have been giving to you before. I have not received a single reliable source from you which supports any part of the article you have written. |
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* Anything published by {{tq|brahmakumaris.org}} or {{tq|Om Mandali, Pharmacy Printing Press}} or {{tq|B.K. Raja Yoga Center for the Brahma Kumaris World Spiritual University}} ought to be treated as flatly unreliable. |
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I will leave the "7 day course" to the end... in the meantime, the section |
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* ], again, ought to be treated as flatly unreliable. She had no academic expertise whatsoever and as far as I remember, what prompted her very-apolegetic portrayal of the movement was her husband veering away with the BKs into celibacy. |
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"beliefs and practices" will be re-written as per Jossi's instructions. |
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=== Meh === |
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Best Wishes, ] 02:42, 13 November 2006 (UTC) |
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* Encyclopedia entries —— be it the Routledge Encyclopedia of New Religious Movements ''or'' else — ought to be sparingly used. |
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* Whaling's ''Understanding the Brahma Kumaris'' (Dunedin University Press; 2012) is a primer aimed at undergraduates. A merrily sympathetic treatment, in what is one of the two academic monographs on the subject, it is . |
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* ] and Tomlinson are anthropologists by training; the latter, particularly of practiced religion. So, I have not much qualms with using ''Brahma Kumaris: Purity and the Globalization of Faith'' (Springer; 2012) but we ought not depend on it for reconstructing the curious history of Brahmakumaris (BK). |
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* ]'s thesis from Monash University. |
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=== Yes === |
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Thanks for stepping up and tending to this issue, both of you. ] 03:03, 13 November 2006 (UTC) |
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* Publications by John Walliss, esp. ''The Brahma Kumaris as a Reflexive Tradition: Responding to Late Modernity'' (Motilal Banarsidass; 2007). |
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Note that material from an organization's website and literature, can be used in an article about that organization providing that it is properly attributed, not unduly self-serving, and not defamatory to third parties. For example, a book published by an religious organization if available from stores, or online outlets, can be used to describe the views/beliefs/traditions of that organization (attributed to them and not asserted as fact, of course). Same applies for materials/statements/opinions, etc. described in that organization's website, under the same caveats of notability, of not contentious nature, and not unduly self-serving. ] <small>] • ]</small> 15:18, 13 November 2006 (UTC) |
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* Prem Chowdhury's masterly ''Marriage, Sexuality and the Female 'Ascetic': Understanding a Hindu Sect'' (EPW; 1996). |
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* Publications by Lawrence A. Babb. |
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* Ramsay's article in ''Handbook of Hinduism in Europe''. |
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] (]) 08:57, 24 July 2024 (UTC) |
