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Look like everything in this article positive for one point of view.] 00:21, 12 November 2006 (UTC)
*]
:Such a friendly start! :-) ''(]])'' 00:21, 12 November 2006 (UTC)
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== NPOV in status of women section ==
Opiner, you can not just add POV tag to an article without explicitly providing sources contradiciting this article. --] 00:22, 12 November 2006 (UTC)
Currently it makes it seem like there is a consensus that the adoption of Islam improved women's status. According to http://books.google.com/books?id=zOAo9VvT4FEC&pg=PA77&sig=IiMFAyu6P3-rNii4QQmN_q3mXQQ, there is healthy scholarly debate about whether the changes were good for women. This is also now a problem in the ] article, which I believe was previously more balanced. ] (]) 20:06, 19 February 2008 (UTC)
] (]) 20:06, 19 February 2008 (UTC)
:Please be bold and improve the article, but also please note that we are only discussing the impact of Islam on the women within the early years of Islam. That is, we are not dealing with the later "interpretation of jurists, local traditions, and social trends which brought about a decline in the status of Muslim women." Cheers, --] (]) 22:13, 19 February 2008 (UTC)


==Title==
:Youre thinking the source template. Do you know what POV standing for? Youre making up the rule again and right away reverting.] 00:26, 12 November 2006 (UTC)
It's much better to change the title to "Early social changes under Islam". ] (]) 01:51, 20 October 2008 (UTC)


==First welfare state==
If you have any source contradicting a sentence written in this article, then please show me. --] 00:32, 12 November 2006 (UTC)
This says that the early Islamic imperium was the first welfare state. Was not the Maurya Rajavamsa of Bharata under Asoka a welfare state?
] (]) 16:59, 5 February 2011 (UTC)
:Rome was a welfare state. ] (]) 21:35, 8 August 2019 (UTC)


== Misuse of sources ==
===Administrator comment===


This article has been edited by a user who is known to have misused sources to unduly promote certain views (see ]). Examination of the sources used by this editor often reveals that the sources have been selectively interpreted or blatantly misrepresented, going beyond any reasonable interpretation of the authors' intent.
A little for both sides here: editors don't have to provide sources when they add a POV tag. They should, however, post more of an explanation on the talk page - preferably analysis of specific sections and passages. <font face="Verdana">]<sup>'']]''</sup></font> 00:35, 12 November 2006 (UTC)


Diffs for each edit made by Jagged 85 are listed at ]. It may be easier to view the of the article.
:Aminz creating this article because on ] he keep trying to make sections with only positive things like Kindness to Animals. Im not kidding he really make that section. When editor try to make it neutral he revert until he break 3RR three times this week. SO he have this article to ] and be not neutral.


A script has been used to generate the following summary. Each item is a diff showing the result of several consecutive edits to the article by Jagged 85, in chronological order.
:Title. Whats a reform is a good change. So only good changes listed here just like what hes doing on ]. Should retitle it Changes under Islam and have both good and bad things to be neutral.] 00:47, 12 November 2006 (UTC)
* ]: {{diff|Early social changes under Islam|161434179|146994685|1}}, {{diff|Early social changes under Islam|165052861|161631485|2}}, {{diff|Early social changes under Islam|183796056|165090336|3}}, {{diff|Early social changes under Islam|183998732|183799905|4}}, {{diff|Early social changes under Islam|192625411|184015065|5}}, {{diff|Early social changes under Islam|237466762|227203517|6}}, {{diff|Early social changes under Islam|245188716|242173325|7}}, {{diff|Early social changes under Islam|346315354|343371036|8}}
::Opiner, the word reformation doesn't mean inherently ''good''.. there can be reforms that are bad as well (particularly for certain groups). ''(]])'' 00:52, 12 November 2006 (UTC)
] (]) 09:51, 9 November 2011 (UTC)
:Removed these parts. Added a tag as the article lacks a nuanced approach, depicting changes mostly as improvements and generelly following an epistemological line of describing things becoming better, more advanced, more just, more generous under Islamic rule etc. etc. ] (]) 11:06, 10 November 2011 (UTC)


== Qur'an does require women to wear veils ==
Another administrator comment: . --] 00:56, 12 November 2006 (UTC)


I'm a little confused, I know that it's someone elses assertion but it's entirely false the Qur'an does order women to cover themselves with their ''jalabeeb'' (]). What proof is there otherwise? ] (]) 14:54, 25 November 2011 (UTC)
Its only been a couple minutes. You didnt give much time did you? Why cant you let the template stay for discussing instead of always revert.] 00:58, 12 November 2006 (UTC)


:Fine. But please be specific. --] 00:59, 12 November 2006 (UTC)
::Opiner, please outline your neutrality concerns here on the talk page and then proceed to restore the POV tag. You'll surely not have any problems with reverting if you do that being that if your concerns were well founded even I would revert the tag removal. ''(]])'' 01:00, 12 November 2006 (UTC)
::Sounds fair. Theres a lot here and gotta do some stuff to do so wait to later.] 01:04, 12 November 2006 (UTC)


I on the other hand.... do not agree... only men who have a basic fear of women would decree such. I dont think Mohammed was anything that male with no fear of women. That think came later from the fears of immature men and their need to control everything within their meagre reach. Dont agree with me... *shrugs* ... I care less, but I would say .. examine your OWN motives. <span style="font-size: smaller;" class="autosigned">— Preceding ] comment added by ] (]) 00:07, 7 July 2012 (UTC)</span><!-- Template:Unsigned IP --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->
Seems we have reached a consensus. I would be more than interested to hear what Muhammad did which, in his day and time, was backward. This will contradict Watt since Watt says that from the perspective of Muhammad's contemporaries, he was very upright and they didn't find any lack of morality in him. --] 01:14, 12 November 2006 (UTC)


== Pseudohistory ==
:I'd like to see a quote to that effect. By the standards of our day he was a bad man (I guess god's morals were different back then too), but even by his standards, assassination can't have been acceptable. ] 10:30, 12 November 2006 (UTC)


This article is rubbish. ] is notorious for his favorable opinions of Islam. The man owes his professorial tenure to Islamic endowments. Talk about conflict of interest!--] (]) 12:18, 27 November 2016 (UTC)
==Title?==
:So, can you suggest some persons who give opposite opinions with valid, verifiable, reliable sources for this article? ] (]) 15:36, 27 November 2016 (UTC)
Maybe ] since this is covering primarily reforms during ]'s time. It's not a big issue but it might be good to narrow down the title to discourage folks from coming in and editing in modern reforms (unless that's what this article should be about as well). ''(]])'' 01:37, 12 November 2006 (UTC)


:: As {{u|Swingoswingo}} says, if you want to address possible ] violations in this article, you should consult ] that reflect alternative points of view and summarize them here, or verify the already cited sources to make sure they're reflected correctly. As of now, your edits have no basis in WP policy. Not only does Esposito's book meet criteria for RS, the statement you've changed is sourced by five other mainstream academic citations, and the pseudohistory and revisionism labels are based on nothing more than your personal opinion, in violation of ]. ] (]) 18:49, 27 November 2016 (UTC)
: Yes, this article is supposed to cover the reforms at the time of Muhammad. Maybe ] would be better? Any suggestion? --] 01:44, 12 November 2006 (UTC)
::Actually maybe specify the dates like ] or just ]... there might be a Misplaced Pages manual of style for such questions. ''(]])'' 01:54, 12 November 2006 (UTC)


== External links modified ==
Maybe we would like to include early Khalifas (four immediate successors of Muhammad) under which Islamic territory became an empire. Since in the Islam and Slavrey section, we have something about the practice of slavery in Islamic empire and Byzantium. --] 01:58, 12 November 2006 (UTC)
:Sounds good.... just figure out the dates and specify them. ''(]])'' 02:01, 12 November 2006 (UTC)
::So, I will move the page to ] --] 02:24, 12 November 2006 (UTC)


Hello fellow Wikipedians,
A question: If we can include his immediate successors, then can we include that they "lowered taxes, provided greater local autonomy and greater religious freedom for Jews and indigenous Christians, and brought peace to peoples demoralized and disaffected by the casualties and heavy taxation resulted from the years of Byzantine-Persian warfare" (ref. both Esposito; Lewis mention this)


I have just modified {{plural:2|one external link|2 external links}} on ]. Please take a moment to review . If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit ] for additional information. I made the following changes:
Quoting from Lewis:
*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20120214071901/http://muttaqun.com/marriage.html to http://muttaqun.com/marriage.html
*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20110807045042/http://www.alastairmcintosh.com/articles/2000_watt.htm to http://www.alastairmcintosh.com/articles/2000_watt.htm


When you have finished reviewing my changes, please set the ''checked'' parameter below to '''true''' or '''failed''' to let others know (documentation at {{tlx|Sourcecheck}}).
<blockquote> Some even among the Christians of Syria and Egypt preffered the rule of Islam to that of Byzantines. A Jewish apocalyptic writing of the early Islamic period makes an angel say to a rabbinic seer: 'Do not fear, Ben Yohay; the Creater, blessed be He, has only brought the Kingdom of Ishmael in order to save you from this wickedness ...the Holy one, blessed be He, will raise up for them a Prophet according to His will, and conquer the land for them, and they will come and restore it...' We may compare with this the words of a later Syric Christian historian: 'Therefore the God of vengeance delivered us out of the hand of the Romans by means of the Arabs...It profited us not a little to be saved from the cruelty of the Romans and their bitter hatred towards us' The people of the conquered provinces did not confine themselves to simply accepting the new regime, but in some cases actively assisted in its establishment. In Palestine the Samaritans, according to tradition, gave such effective aid to the Arab invaders that they were for some time exempted from certain taxes, and there are many other reports in the early chronicles of local Jewish and Christian assistance." </blockquote>


{{sourcecheck|checked=false}}
My question is if these are reforms of Islam. --] 02:05, 12 November 2006 (UTC)
:Aminz, just be bold and do some editing. Others will be sure to join in! :-) ''(]])'' 02:12, 12 November 2006 (UTC)


Cheers.—] <span style="color:green;font-family:Rockwell">(])</span> 23:06, 18 December 2016 (UTC)
Need to do some research. Cheers, --] 02:24, 12 November 2006 (UTC)
:I would suggest that the article be broken up into 2 primary sections. The first obviously would cover reforms under ] and the second for afterwards. ''(]])'' 02:32, 12 November 2006 (UTC)


== Needs serious revisions ==
Good idea.We can do that after we gathered more information. --] 06:09, 12 November 2006 (UTC)


Hey all,
==Geckos==


I've tried to tidy up this page a bit, given the severe issues it had due to a now-banned user (among other issues). Unfortunately, it is still a mess. I've inserted more sources, and tried to include more female and non-Western sources (the article previously relied almost entirely on two American men and zero women from Muslim backgrounds) but it still needs a lot of work. In particular, the "Moral Changes", "Economic Changes", and "Civil Changes" sections (ending with "Arabia was rid of famine for all the times to come" which is certainly not correct...) need a lot of help. The section on the Arab conquests is also clearly written in a NPOV manner and I'll try to fix that a bit, but my knowledge here is limited. Anyone who knows of any good sources on those issues, please feel free to add as many as you want.
Truthspreader you make article say Arab practices were 'terrible' again. If that not POV what is?
] (]) 19:44, 4 August 2018 (UTC)


: {{ping|Dragoon17}} Thanks, this made a great overall improvement to the article. Leila Ahmed's views in particular have been influential and really needed to be included. Looking at the diff, I do see some material deleted for no apparent reason (as ] states, it's considered good practice to use edit summaries), which I'm going to restore. If you have concerns about it, please discuss. I've read some good sources while working on ], so I'll take a look at that section. ] (]) 23:49, 5 August 2018 (UTC)
Then you reduce hadith citation making it sound like only one hadith when actually seven. Whats the reason for that can you explain? You put command about geckos in footnote. Why? Also change gecko pic caption to remove FACT that Muhammad say to kill them and also to make no sense. Theyre AMBIVALENT? That make no sense.


: Ok, so the three historians cited on the Arab conquests all lean toward the same sympathetic perspective and the counterbalancing material violates ]. More generally, the question of whether Jews and Christians were better or worse off under the Arabs isn't really what this article is about, or at least not solely. I wrote some stuff on early social changes in ]. ] (]) 00:13, 6 August 2018 (UTC)
If something sound good then trumpeted from the rooftop. If bad then hidden under the rug. Thats not neutral.] 04:00, 12 November 2006 (UTC)


::Thanks! I don't have any issues with the changes, beyond this one, which I do think should at least be rephrased as it is inaccurate (the second sentence, I mean): "John Esposito states that the reforms affected marriage, divorce, and inheritance. Women were not accorded with such legal status in other cultures, including the West, until centuries later". "Other cultures" is ''extremely'' broad imo, and while it's unclear what "legal status" is being referred to here (I assume the ability to divorce or inherit wealth/property/general status--or marry someone of their choosing?) it is not factually correct, even focusing on semi-contemporary figures like ] or ]. I guess we could add a sentence or two after that saying "Others have argued that this is a simplistic view of history and various cultures predating this era afforded women the right to inherit. For example, ] believes it is not possible to generalize marriage and divorce laws across western Europe in the ], as several Germanic peoples appear to have allowed women to permanently separate from their husbands " etc etc, but that seems to be really, really far beyond the topic of the article, so I don't wanna add anything like that in. I'll leave it up to you to decide if it the sentence should be rephrased or not.
:'''Terrible''' is very different from '''traditional''', which gives very wrong information. Secondly, information has to come from secondary sources. Please stop making '''Original research''' and putting your claims as Professor Opiner. ]<sup>]</sup> 04:11, 12 November 2006 (UTC)


::And yeah I had a lot of problems finding usable sources for that section, keeping it short and sweet and linking to ] is probably the better option. Cheers ] (]) 20:29, 11 August 2018 (UTC)
::No original research there. If traditional is wrong then say nothing. Just practices of the Arabs. Were not supposed to take a position.


::: {{re|Dragoon17}} Thanks for the explanation. I've looked up the cited source. It's from the entry on Muhammad by ] and it reads: "The Quran gave women rights of inheritance and divorce centuries before women in other cultures, including the West, were accorded such legal status." I generally don't cite Armstrong as her scholarly credentials aren't the strongest, but the encyclopedia is a RS. It's not the first RS where I come across a statement of this kind. Your concerns are reasonable, though in using one source to argue against another we should be wary of ]. In this case, I think it would be sufficient to act within limits of clarification. This statement doesn't have to be read as applying to all other cultures, in the West or elsewhere. I'll tweak the phrasing and add attribution.
::Information must come from seconddary sources? QUOTE THE POLICY.
::: I'll try to improve the section on Arab conquests later. ] (]) 23:22, 13 August 2018 (UTC)


== Confusion ==
::Now what about the geckos? Why change number of hadiths from seven to one? Why changing the caption? You give reasons why geckos are bad while hiding Muhammad command to kill them. Like a court case where only the defense can speak! Explain why please.] 04:15, 12 November 2006 (UTC)


about this: "John Esposito states that "women were given inheritance rights in a patriarchal society that had previously restricted inheritance to male relatives," Similarly, Annemarie Schimmel wrote that "Compared to the pre-Islamic position of women, Islamic legislation meant an enormous progress; the woman has the right, at least according to the letter of the law, to administer the wealth she has brought into the family or has earned by her own work". Didnt Khadija (RA) own a business before/while married? She inherited from her previous husband when he died? this seems to be conflicting with the article of ] (RA). Either this is wrong or that is wrong because it does not make sense to say that women could not previously inherit or hold wealth & property on their own, while also saying that this woman inherited property and wealth on her own. Please fix <!-- Template:Unsigned IP --><small class="autosigned">—&nbsp;Preceding ] comment added by ] (]) 22:58, 22 March 2019 (UTC)</small> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->
:::M. didn't come to eradicate all practices of Arabs, hence putting ''nothing'' would be wrong as well. Secondly, I am not hiding the command. There is no command, it is an advice. The secondary source even takes killing of these animals in haram as advice and not command (which is a much more severe case), then who are we to comment on that? ]<sup>]</sup> 04:20, 12 November 2006 (UTC)
::::Then write practices of Arabs that HE THOUGHT were 'terrible' NOT make the article say that.


== Orphaned references in ] ==
::::Hadith say 'advice' not 'command'?


I check pages listed in ] to try to fix reference errors. One of the things I do is look for content for ] in wikilinked articles. I have found content for some of ]'s orphans, the problem is that I found more than one version. I can't determine which (if any) is correct for ''this'' article, so I am asking for a sentient editor to look it over and copy the correct ref content into this article.
::::Book 026, Number 5560: Umm Sharik reported that Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) COMMANDED her to kill geckos. This hadith has been transmitted on the authority of Ibn Abi Shaiba with a slight variation of wording.
::::Book 026, Number 5561: Umm Sharik reported that she consulted Allah's Apostle (may peace be upon him) in regard to killing of geckos, and he COMMANDED to kill them and Umm Sharik is one of the women of Bani 'Amir b. Luwayy. This hadith has been reported through another chain of transmitters with the same meaning.
::::Book 026, Number 5562:'Amir b. Sa'd reported on the authority of his father that Allah's Apostle (may peace be upon him) COMMANDED the killing of geckos, and he called them little noxious creatures.


<b>Reference named "Ahmed":</b><ul>
::::Hmm look like command to me.04:27, 12 November 2006 (UTC)
<li>From ]: Ahmed, Ali S. V.; Jibouri, Yasin T. (2004). ''The Koran: Translation.'' Elmhurst, NY: Tahrike Tarsile Qurān. Print.</li>
<li>From ]: Ahmed, Imad-ad-Dean. Signs in the heavens. 2. Amana Publications, 2006. Print. {{ISBN|1-59008-040-8}} pp. 23, 42, 84. {{quote|"Despite the fact that they did not have a quantified theory of error they were well aware that an increased number of observations qualitatively reduces the uncertainty."}}</li>
<li>From ]: Ahmed, Ali S. V.; Jibouri, Yasin T. (2004). ''The Koran: Translation.'' Elmhurst, NY: Tahrike Tarsile Qur'ān. Print.</li>
</ul>


I apologize if any of the above are effectively identical; I am just a simple computer program, so I can't determine whether minor differences are significant or not. ]] 18:55, 7 July 2020 (UTC)
:::] says: ''Misplaced Pages is not the place for original research. Citing sources and avoiding original research are inextricably linked: the only way to demonstrate that you are not doing original research is to cite reliable sources that provide information directly related to the topic of the article, and to adhere to what those sources say.'' ]<sup>]</sup> 04:24, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

::::That say NOTHING about primary or secondary sources. There are parts that talk about the primary sources why arent you quoting them?] 04:27, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

:::Mate! if you are so sure, why don't you backup your case with a good secondary source. ]<sup>]</sup> 04:31, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

::::Youre evading the questions! Why you not quote the parts that DO talk about primary sources? If YOURE so sure how come you cant find anything in the policy to backup your case?] 04:33, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

:::You are claiming to infer from hadith literature, as a hadith expert. The problem is that you dont' even know how ] literature works. There are examples in which some Muslims think that context is essential in interpreting the source. Secondly, not all hadith are accepted by all historians, so saying that '''Muhammad ordered killing geckos''' is a grave '''POV''' that is your '''Original Research'''. ]<sup>]</sup> 04:40, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

::::No theres no 'interpreting' here at all anymore than you 'interpret' secondary source. Read what it say and write it not 'interpreting.' The rules here EXACTLY the same with secondary and primary source. So QUOTE THE POLICY you think backs you up.

::::And why you change citation of seven hadith to citation of only one? Still havent answered that.] 04:46, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

:::::They say that everything bad in the hadith is a corruption, but keep the good stuff. What a joke. Is this the way all Muslims reason? Context. What a load of nonsense. You don't need context to interpret the words "Muhammad commanded the killing of geckos." ] 10:35, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

::::No body is disagreeing with the fact that geckos are not liked animals and M. advised to kill these animals (some thing a secondary source says very clearly). By adding that it is a command for all Muslims, this purly is '''Original research'''. ]<sup>]</sup> 10:40, 12 November 2006 (UTC)
:::::Who said ALL muslims? 'Muhammad commanded Muslims' by standard English doesnt decide this question.] 10:54, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

==Truthspreaders Double Standard on Hadith==

Truthspreader looking at what youve been saying that we cant use primary sources such as hadith, can you explain this edit? Where you add Bukhari hadith to secondary source which doesnt mention the hadith.You write that hadith 'suggest' something which is 'interpretation' isnt it? Explain.] 05:00, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

Look like a whole lot of primary sources used in that article both hadith and sira. Wondering how much of that you add Truthspreader? Why you not agressively remove it I wonder?] 05:11, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

:If he has used primary sources, then he has done something he shouldn't have done. That doesn't justify using primary sources here. --] 06:08, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

::Reason Truthspreader edit was bad is because he include the ] conclusion that Hadith 'suggests' something. If Hadith saying 'Prophet told me journey physical not a dream' then his edit would be fine. Aminz maybe you can go over to that article where reverters are bringing back the original reasearch of Truthspreader.

::Main point is that Truthspreader using dishonest attorney arguments to promote his NOT neutral POV. He make that edit with the hadith AT THE SAME TIME check the date that he argue the exact opposite on ]! Not spreading the truth at all!] 06:45, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

: We should not use primary sources, not here and not anywhere else. So, yes, he wasn't right on that point. I myself have screwed up many times, but these are all irrelevant. I am concerned with this article. We can not use primary sources here. That's all I say. --] 06:49, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

::Okay youre not going to say more. I wanna hear Truthspreader explanation.] 06:50, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

Look like Truthspreader using Hadith all the time! Especially for the ]. Look at this diff with whole Hadith section..] 07:18, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

== Picture ==

I don't know why that picture was added. It is about a slave market in Yaman, taken from slave trade section in the slavery article. But this article is not about slavery nor the caption is relevant to the section. All religions accept slavery, there is no one, even one that condemns, Lewis says. Aside from that: The oriental slave trade is sometimes called Islamic slave trade, but religion was hardly the point of the slavery, Patrick Manning, a professor of World History, states. What's the point of that figure? --] 05:57, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

::Again you try to justify the wickedness in Islam by pointing the finger at other religions. Stop wasting time with this nonsense. ] 10:46, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

:WHy you add defensive things to caption? Words were neutral before. Seem like everything need a big defense explanation.] 06:49, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

I was thinking of removing the picture as it is irrelevant. What does have oriental slave trade to do with this article. The picture is a 13 century one. This article is about 610-661. Also, oriental slave trade is not an Islamic one. --] 06:53, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

Its Islam allowing slavery. The article talk about reforming form 610-661 but are you saying it cant include any of the EFFECTS after 661? Islam command kindness to animals until 661? And no pics of anything made after 661?] 07:00, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

:Opiner, what's the point? why should we be so hostile to each other? Arab slave trade was not Islamic slave trade. Islam wasn't the point of the slavery. We can have the picture together with explanation. --] 07:03, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

::We shouldnt be hostile to each other. I agree with that. You need to take a step back though and ask why so many editor on Muhammad thinking your edits not neutral. You are very FOR Muhammad and ISlam and edit that way too BUT Misplaced Pages cant be FOR anything like that. So someone need to keep an eye on you which Im doing. You should listen to what were saying instead of the reverting. They are letting put your materials BUT with editting to be neutral. Should admit to yourself youre not neutral and agree its okay for us doing that. Its gotta be collaborating not edit warring. If you do that life will become less stress for everyone especially you.

::The long explanation already in the article. In the caption it look really defensive. Tell what about original caption you didnt like or thought wasnt neutral.] 08:00, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

::: Opiner, your comment saddens me, but neverminds. As I said above, religon was hardly the point of slave trade. That picture is about slave trade. --] 08:04, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

::::The article talk about the slavery trading under the Islamic law. So there is the picture of the slavery trading under the ISlamic law. its from ] which about Islam and slavery just like the part of this article.] 08:10, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

:::::The Qur'an says that female slaves whose husbands have been killed in war are reward from Allah . None of the "other religions" you're always going on about have lines like this. Hinduism doesn't say, "If you join this religion, you get to kill unbelievers and take their wives as sex slaves! And when you go to heaven you get multiple women to have sex with! So come on, join!" ] 10:46, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

== Gecko ==

We have one secondary source here . But I don't know Mr.Abdullah Rahim the writer. If one can show that Rahim has some relevant degree, we can use this source to write about Geckos. Any objection? --] 06:07, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

The secondary source (if reliable) says it was "salamanders" not lizards. So, we should probably replace the figure. The figure should probably be that of a desert slamander. --] 06:12, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

:No. Salamander from Bukhari hadith not Sahih Muslim. These are two different commandings.

:But the salamanders also should be mention. I think it only two hadith though unles maybe its somewhere else too.

:Also Muhammad command the Muslims kill all the dogs before changing his mind. Not my conclusion Hadith actually say he said it they started doing it then he change it to only some dogs. We should include this too.] 06:48, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

Fine, please google them. Whatever you want. Just please show me a reliable secondary source and add it with all the pictures you would like. Please note that websites like answering-Christianity; answering-Islam; faithfreedom, Islamophobia, anti-Islamophobia, etc etc are NOT reliable. --] 06:51, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

:Of course theyre not! BUT you should read policy on primary sources. The policy is there it does talk about primary sources and we should follow what it say. Thats being we should be very careful not to add our own concludings. Just repeating what it say though is okay. Policy even encourage using by giving advice on where to find them.] 06:57, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

Opiner, for the sake of whoever you believe in, please find secondary sources. Is that so hard to do? I have suffered myself by finding reliable sources(which you easily remove without realizing the time and energy I have spent). Yes, when I do that, I expect others to do it as well. --] 07:00, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

:No one arguing about Watt and Esposito EVEN though theyre obviously having their point of view. I think the Martin Forward one might be okay as long as he write it instead of the wildlife professor. But engineer not okay in the Islam article. Hadith is Islam source not the engineer.] 07:11, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

Dear Opiner, the book is taught in university. It is published by a reliable press. Let me explain a little bit. When someone wants to publish a paper or a book, he submits the draft to the press. Then the press gives the draft to several reviewers to check. The better the press, the better the reviewers. The reviewers make sure that every sentence in the paper, book is factual, otherwise it will be bad for the reputation of the press. The University Text Book are the most reliable ones. Yes, there might even then be mistakes. Everybody can publish write about Islam even non-specialists. But the press may not publish it. If the writer is famous, that would of course increase credentiality. At the end of the day, we can say Prof. X in his book published by Y says Z. --] 07:17, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

:Let me explain a little bit. When someone wants to publish a paper or a book, he submits the draft to the press. Then the press gives the draft to several reviewers to check. If you are an engineer these reviewers are OTHER ENGINEERS. Thats why it called 'peer' review.] 07:40, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

The books is written on "ethics" of technology. Who do you think reviews it? --] 07:53, 12 November 2006 (UTC)
:Not the scholars of Islam.] 08:03, 12 November 2006 (UTC)
Opiner, do you agree if we ask 5 outsider admins about this and go for majority? --] 08:05, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

::We dont need to because theres the reliable source policy which say
::'Prefer sources with relevant doctoral degrees or published expertise in the field they are discussing.'
::'Prefer authors with an established reputation in the field where Misplaced Pages uses them for reference.'

::What about the things youre saying on the primary sources do you have the quotes for them too?] 08:17, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

Opiner, the question is not one of preference. Can we use that source or not, this is the question. --] 08:25, 12 November 2006 (UTC)
:I think no he may know nothing about Islam. The policy doesnt say no definitely not youre right about that. HOWEVER you should either find the QUOTE of the policy to supporting your 'no primary source' idea or admit that its not existing. Then we ask whats more relevant to Muhammad and Islam the SAHIH hadith or the ethicists of technology?] 08:44, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

Opiner, I am sure that if we ask several admins, they tell us that the source could be used. BUT I am willing to compromise in this way: I remove "Taking the life of even an insect, in some cases, can equate to taking life of a human." but the rest remains. How is that? --] 08:48, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

:Before addressing what you say I want the acknowledge admitting THAT the idea youre giving on the policy for primary sources not really there OR show me the quote.] 08:54, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

It is there. We can not use original sources unless its meaning is entirely clear. This is not the case here. I am a devote Muslim and hadn't heard about those hadiths before. This means that they are not religous duties at all. --] 09:02, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

:AGain the straw man! Who said the religious duty? Only you! Listen Muhammad commanded to kill geckos. What do the hadith say? Muhammad command to kill the geckos! Where is the uncertainty?] 09:22, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

Stop personal attacks and I wont respond you anymore. --] 09:23, 12 November 2006 (UTC)
:What personal attack? I dont personal attack.] 09:24, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

::Secondary source puts it as an advice and gives a reason as well. Who are we to say that it is a command??]<sup>]</sup> 09:25, 12 November 2006 (UTC)
:::Secondary source you give talk about something else. Hadith say Muhammad command. Who are we to say that it not a command?] 09:26, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

::::Because it is ]. You should read about the basic definition of hadith. You should also read that how western scholars think about it. You should also read that how Muslims sruitinize it. You should also read about how sometimes Muslim differ in their hadith collection. If you are Prof. Opiner in Yale University as hadith expert, I am ready to accept your opinion. ]<sup>]</sup> 09:40, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

:::::Of course! Everything negative (though ]) in the hadith about Muhammad is wrong, and everything positive is right! I forgot to check my brain in at the door when I entered a discussion of Islam. Sorry, it won't happen again. ] 10:50, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

==Pseudo-Comparison to Christianity==

Quite apart from the issue of whether Budinger is a scholar in this field, his contrasting of Islam to Christianity is unacceptable. First of all, it is POV pushing serving merely the aim of glorifying Islam by comparing it with a supposedly dark Christianity. Secondly, it is off topic, as this article is about "reforms under Islam" - Christianity was hardly a relevant force in 7th century Arabia and Saint Thomas wasn't even born in the day. Thirdly, the passage is non-sensical, as it compares the Christian idea that man is the "''steward'' of nature" (the one accurate bit in that assessment) with the Islamic idea (I assume that this is accurate) that man is the "''protector'' of nature. ] ] 09:00, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

Yes, Saint Thomas wasn't born but the source quotes him to explain the views in Christian circle. Comparison between Christianity and Islam is relevant since the source says Islam was developed to according to some fix the loopwholes in Christianity. --] 09:04, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

:Like the enslavement of the wives of unbelievers you kill . A most important loophole to fix. If you want to compare Christian (or Jewish) ethics to Islamic ethics you will realize that Islam was a huge step backward from those. Maybe not from Arab paganism, but from Christianity and Judaism certainly. ] 10:56, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

:Aminz what you mean by 'loopholes' in Chrisitianity? Not pretending to be a set of rules so how can there be loopholes.] 10:58, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

::The "loopholes" sentence is the worst, as it really takes an Islamic stance that somehow Islam was needed to fix the errors of Christianity. And that is POV pushing. The following sentence show the weak basis on which that assessment stands, quite apart from the wrong expectations highlighted by Opiner. Christianity is essentially not a rule book, though rules exist and are important, but a way of dealing (and Christian's believe this is God's way) with the constant falling short of perfection. Islam on the other hand is essentially praising God and following the rules, hence Muslims' misunderstanding is comprehensible. Comprehensible but not tenable.
::Finally, Aminz, that the "source" quotes him is irrelevant. Stop hiding behind your sources. This is no article on Budinger's book. ] ] 11:16, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

==Intro==

Why doesn't this article start with a neutral exposition of the topic? At least one sentence in the beginning should be neutral before the (unfortunately familiar) quotefest begins. And it should be related to the article's name. If the article is called "Reforms under Islam (610-661)", why does the article start with Muhammad? ] ] 09:02, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

== Definite lack of Neutrality. ==

As MOOTOOGS lawyer (he is in bed) I would like to say that many sections of this article need to be.. how to say it.. Neutralised. They show a large bias towards Muhammad and Islam. INstead, they should show some negatives and more neutral points in addition to the current content.

Thankyou for your time.
] 10:40, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

: How do you know it is? --] 11:39, 12 November 2006 (UTC)
::Aw come on its obvious.] 11:41, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

== Dispute points / Brief review / For invited arbitrator ==

1. Can the book "Thomas Budinger,Miriam D. Budinger, Ethics of Emerging Technologies: Scientific Facts and Moral Challenges, John Wiley & Sons, INC. 2006, p.166-167 , ISBN: 0471692123 " be used in this article.

Those who say yes, argue:

This book is written on The "ethics" of technology and nevertheless touches religion since it has to do with ethics. A section of the book is dedicated to this. The book is written by Prof. Budinger and is an scholarly book (see http://bioeng.berkeley.edu/content/view/297/156/ ). This book is used by Prof. Budinger as '''the text book''' for the course Bio-ethics taught at University of California Berkeley (BioE 100 - Ethics in Science and Engineering) see http://bioeng.berkeley.edu/content/view/204/156/ Being a text book in a famous university shows its reliability. Furthermore it is published by a renowned press. It has all the qualifications. Professor Budinger, the author, is Professor & Chair
Department of Bioengineering at UCB, Professor of Department of Electrical Engineering and Computer Science at UCB and Professor in Residence University of California, San Francisco. Also, Head of the Department of Nuclear Medicine & Functional Imaging, ].


Those who say no, argue:

He is not an scholar of Islam but an engineer.

2. This dispute is about usage of primary source. Please have a look at (whether the user pages could be used in that way is also objected by ]). User: Opiner wants to write: "According to the hadith of Sahih Bukhari, Sahih Muslim and Sunan Abu Dawud, Muhammad commanded Muslims to kill all dogs and sent men to kill them." Oponents argue that 1. These are just primary sources and any interpretation of which should be taken from secondary sources. This is particularly important when the specialist have differing views on matters which might not seem in the first point. An striking example is different interpretations of the verse on the number of wives a man can take. So, everything must be left to secondary sources. 2. There is no disagreement that that geckos are not liked animals and Muhammad advised to kill these animals (some thing a secondary source(if reliable) says). But adding that it is a command for all Muslims is original research. The reason for Muhammad's advice might have been the what Arabs commonly believed.

--] 11:39, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

Proponents note that no one wants to put "all Muslims" there, all of the many primary sources have "ordered" or "commanded," and no conclusions are drawn or personal interpretations made. ] 08:07, 14 November 2006 (UTC)
:HAminz keeps attacking the straw man he made. No ones saying its a command for all Muslims or saying why he said it. That would be original research like the kind that Truthspreader does.] 16:47, 14 November 2006 (UTC)

===Discussion===

I am not arguing here, I am questioning: What is Prof Budinger's field of scholarship? What are his degrees? Is he a historian - qualified to speak about the history of Christianity and/or Islam? Is he a philosopher - qualified to debate the position of the Aquinate? Is he ethicist (if that is the correct word) - qualified to discuss ethics on a scholarly level? My point is that we must (if we must) use his book based on the merit of his expertise. We don't quote Einstein on theology, we don't quote Bonhoeffer on molecular biology. If Budinger really is only an engineer the case for including him at all falls apart. ] ] 11:50, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

:If Budinger writes on Ethics and religion as part of a text book which is published by a renowned press, then that could be attributed to him. We can say, Budinger professor of X, says Y. --] 11:57, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

::The publisher is completely irrelevant. The status as a text book might be interesting and relevant to us but cannot simply dictate our usage here. Also relevant would be a peer-review on the book, done by an actual expert in this field. As for "professor of X" that is another issue: this overloading with titles throughout the article. I say let's quote Budinger on issues he is competent for or on which his view has found support among experts. ] ] 12:04, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

==Enough with the smearing efforts!==
To the editors who are on a ] to render this article overly negative relative to ], please cease such editing that strains one's ability to ]. Misplaced Pages is not a ]. Please make efforts with fellow editors to write in an encyclopedic and balanced style! ''(]])'' 13:24, 12 November 2006 (UTC)
:This same advice goes to editors wanting to glorify Muhammad. There are both very positive aspects of Muhammad's influence just as there are also negative aspects. Please make efforts on both sides of this to strike an encyclopedic balance.... no glorifying but no smearing either, remember ]. ''(]])'' 13:30, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

How should you suppose one might reason with this?

<blockquote>Watt says that from the perspective of Muhammad's contemporaries, he was very upright and they didn't find any lack of morality in him.</blockquote>

It's a big old "screw you" to any possibility of reason and moderation, straight out of the gate.] 13:47, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

:I cannot look into the heads of other editors, but I for my part have absolutely no intention to smear Muhammad. I only want an article that is both balanced and readable and that does not glorify Islam or Muhammad by smearing Christianity.
:As for the other editors, I cannot vouch for their intentions but above postings seems to be against ]. ] ] 13:58, 12 November 2006 (UTC)
::You're kidding right? AGF? In the lead image is of a black dog and the caption, "Muhammad commanded Muslims to kill all black dogs.".... the lead image and lead caption of that section? Riiiiight.... we may need to assume good faith but not to the point of stupidity. ''(]])'' 14:02, 12 November 2006 (UTC)
:::It would appear that Muhammad ''did'' say to slay black dogs. Do you deny that?] 14:06, 12 November 2006 (UTC)
::::Regardless, the section title isn't '''Muhammad's commandments to kill animals'''. Such a lead image and caption would make sense in a section so entitled... but such is not the case. Please don't play ignorant. Besides who are you really? A new user who magically appears on this new article and instantly starts edit warring, all of the classic signs of a ]. ''(]])'' 14:12, 12 November 2006 (UTC)
:::Netscott, did you have a look into Aminz' and TS' record? And what about the camel image? ] ] 14:14, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

::::And one more thing: if you have a problem with a specific edit or a specific editor then address them directly instead of making general proclamations. May I ask whether some editor has been blocked recently? Otherwise I cannot explain how "rv sockpuppet" is valid edit summary. ] ] 14:23, 12 November 2006 (UTC)
:::::I reverted that sockpuppet's edit merely because that editor is a sockpuppet... for no other reason. This particular sockpuppet is being employed to gain an editing advantage relative to ] (meaning there's no need for the sock's editor to have been blocked). ''(]])'' 14:26, 12 November 2006 (UTC)
::::It doesn't really matter. I see fault on both sides... people just need to step back a bit and seriously chill out some.... try to be balanced in your editing and strive to work with editors and not edit war with them over these issues. What I see is that everyone is somewhat right in the accusations with regards to others. All that I ask is that folks recognize this and decide to work constructively (as much as possible) and stop battling. ''(]])'' 14:18, 12 November 2006 (UTC)
::::I agree with you about constructiveness. I for my part have been constructive over at the Muhammad article while my suggestions were shouted down on spurious grounds. ] ] 14:23, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

:Netscott, I am not a new user, but one who's learned the hard way that it's a foolish mistake to associate one's regular username with this kind of article. I've not violated Misplaced Pages's rules and that's all that's relevant.

:The section title is, in fact, "animals." As you rightly denounce "smear campaigns" and "glorification" alike, by what princely calculus do you derive that laudatory material ought be presented first?] 14:26, 12 November 2006 (UTC)
::You are wrong. Using a sockpuppet to edit war is extremely against wikipedia policies and as an experienced user you are no doubt aware of that. If you continue to edit war you can be sure that I'll be one of those reverting your edits almost for the sole reason so that your lack of obedience relative to sock policy can be thwarted. ''(]])'' 14:36, 12 November 2006 (UTC)
::::I have been confronted with many a puppet here on WP, but AFAIK the policy is that it is not illegal to have a sock puppet as long as it is not used to cirumvent 3RR, blocks etc. or to garner extra votes. If JAI is edit warring please treat this on its own merit. ] ] 14:38, 12 November 2006 (UTC)
:::::If a sockpuppet is assisting other editors in a POV campaign to prosecute an edit war, you can be sure the sock will eventullay be blocked permanently. ''(]])'' 14:42, 12 November 2006 (UTC)
::::::Blocked...do you mean like Let us talk about the article, shall we? Beginning with my substantive question above about the order in which material should appear.] 15:02, 12 November 2006 (UTC)
:::::::Netscott. This is not WP policy. Unless you suspect that one of these editors is the same as JAI and the two combine to evade 3RR or blocks. If you think so, file a check user. We have been much more patient with multiple repeat offenders in the past. ] ] 15:18, 12 November 2006 (UTC)
::::::::No, an editor who creates a sockpuppet as JAI has done to help prosecute an edit war (interesting how JAI's timing was so perfect here no?) will have the sock indef. blocked. ''(]])'' 15:25, 12 November 2006 (UTC)
:::::::::I suggest ending this discussion: we both have different experiences and different readings of the sock policy. As long as you apply yours equally it will not hurt me. ] ] 16:09, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

== Article scope/definition ==
Following up on the ] discussion and my message to Aminz, I think we need to define what this page exactly is. If we get that done ''then'' we can argue about content. The page is title "Reforms under Islam (610-661)" so, what exactly does that mean? The period from 610-661 is a relative black box in the history of Arabia. Much of this article seems to be making the assumption that the changes that the text supposedly talked about happened and then uses historical examples to back this up.

If we are to keep this title: What makes a reform from 610 until 661? If this simply means any reform that "Muhammad wanted" that then means we can add anything that happens in history. Which, I would argue we shouldn't have "(610-661)" since pretty much all Islamic reform harks back to that period for legitimacy. The Qur'an and hadith seem to call for many areas of reform but they are obviously up for interpretation. So, what do you mean? What should this article be? Let's get through that before we argue about camels and geckos and dogs, oh my. ] ] 16:37, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

:Heres a question about the kindness to animals section not having to do with camels and geckos and dogs. But it is about the scope of the article. It doesnt say what anyone was doing before these teachings so how are they reforms? Maybe this should go in an article Muhammads attitude towards Animals. It wont be neutral but it makes no sense to have it here.] 06:59, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

:I agree with ] that every thing in this world is relative. But if it can be identified to the editors of this article that which portions require comparison, that'd be great. Cheers! ]<sup>]</sup> 12:16, 14 November 2006 (UTC)

::I DID just identify one of which portions require comparison. The section on Muhammad teaching about animals. What's he reforming?] 16:42, 14 November 2006 (UTC)

:Another thing thats not on topic is the Literary Reforms. Its only a quote about the Qur'an being influential. Not a reform at all!] 21:11, 14 November 2006 (UTC)

==Canis familiaris==

Nielswik’s edit summary read "rv POV-pushing. this is about reforms not about animal killing."

Ah, but the article ''is'' about animal killing: "He asked his followers to sharpen the blade when slaughtering animals."

It is also about dogs in particular: "Regarding Muhammad's kindness to Animals, for example Watt states "As his men marched towards Mecca just before the conquest they passed a bitch with puppies; and Muhammad not merely gave orders that they were not to be disturbed, but posted a man to see that the orders were carried out." Muhammad also informed a prostitute who saw a thirsty dog hanging around a well one day, and gave it water to drink, that all her sins are forgiven, Forward Professor of Religious Studies at Aurora University and M. Alam state."

Muhammad’s well-documented extreme enmity towards dogs, an attitude which continues in much of the Muslim world to this day, is reduced to: "Muhammad however didn't like dogs (and most Muslims do not have dogs as pets)."

It is evident, then, that the treatment of dogs is topical. It is undeniable that the three sentences the current version of the article devotes to the treatment of dogs offer a very biased treatment of our knowledge in this regard.

We should now ask, first, is this a problem? That is, is the very nature of this article such that only what seem to us moral improvements are to merit inclusion? One would get that impression, as the only denominator common to the material is that they are things Muhammad did or advocated that are being framed as advances. If so, the very existence of the article would seem to violate Misplaced Pages's ] requirements, and we might ask what reasons there are to waive it in this instance.

If we answer the first question in the affirmative, and agree that this bias is a problem, then let's discuss how to solve it.] 00:38, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

I was asked not to edit the article; I hope it doesn't include the talk pages. :) JustAnIdea, This *Idea* of yours is relevant if you can back it up using reliable secondary sources. Please read this section , before commenting. Thanks very much. --] 00:42, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

: Also, please read about pictures. (the one in the slavery section) --] 00:44, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

Hadith does not need to be quoted from a secondary source if it's inclusion doesn't constitute an implicit inclusion of a user's interpretation. Common sense should be used to decide when this is the case and when it isn't. ] 06:20, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

==Rename it back!==
I strongly object to the rename, let this article be about Muhammad, and make another article wider in scope if necessary. The impact of Muhammad can not be compared to the impact of all the other people together. Make a second article! --] 23:49, 13 November 2006 (UTC)
:Oh, this article was never named Muhammad as a reformer, was it? Hmm... could we then split it under one for Muhammad, and another one for the rest? --] 23:52, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

== Hadith, pictures ==

As noted above, including a primary source with no hint of interpretation does not constitute original research. I have to say that both animals we have pictures of are really cute. ] 07:22, 14 November 2006 (UTC)
:The problem with hadith as a ] even when it is saying something clearly is that it lacks context, which only a reliable secondary source can give. It is just like quoting a verse from Qur'an for killing, even though, that verse might be referring to a battle field. ]<sup>]</sup> 12:07, 14 November 2006 (UTC)
::Perhaps you should look at the verses in the hadith in their original "context." You will see that there is little context. The hadith is basically a list of unconnected verses. Also, I encourage you to find out for yourself the original historical context of the "Verse of the Sword" in the Quran. ] 20:40, 14 November 2006 (UTC)

:::This is not my job to tell that how to find the historical context of "Verse of the sword" in Qur'an. Secondly, this is what you see, an unconnected verbal talks, but historians try to connect these to different events, and again, this is not my job to interpret them. ]<sup>]</sup> 08:08, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

::::If you care to learn about the Verse of the Sword, I can inform you. In any case, humans are able to communicate with one another using language. It is a wonderful thing. Language is a way of conveying information. When you read a straightforward sentence like the ones in the hadith that have caused problems for you, if you have good command of the language, you don't need someone else to translate it. That's the beauty of language. ] 10:00, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

:::Your argument is straw man's argument. Mate! are you trying to undermine scholars who spend their lives to interpret historical documents. ]<sup>]</sup> 10:24, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

::::You seem to be having trouble understanding what I write. What other languages do you speak? I can try one of those, maybe. ] 03:14, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

== This article needs an RfC... '''badly''' ==

Every section of this article is either
a) undying praise for Mohammed (it all but says "Mohammed was the Prophet; become Muslim now), or b) people reacting to the undying praise by inserting pictures with the caption "Mohammed wanted you to burn your cute pet doggie at the stake".
I beg of you guys, come to an agreement to at least go to rfc to work on the NPOV, and file a request here: ]. -]<sup>]]</sup> 07:39, 14 November 2006 (UTC)
:Regarding the pictures, there was a caption that said "Muhammad really loved animals!" and one which said "Muhammad wanted to kill your pet!" I removed both, so I think it's OK now. ] 07:42, 14 November 2006 (UTC)
::I requested an RfC. ] 07:47, 14 November 2006 (UTC)

There is no misrepresentation of any sources whatsoever. Please have a look at http://books.google.com/books?vid=ISBN041534106X&id=YEhkImyhmoIC&pg=PA37&lpg=PA37&vq=muhammad&dq=reforms+muhammad+inpublisher:routledge&sig=EuxXl7xa1CwOkK3Lprn0dNnDErc

and

http://books.google.com/books?vid=ISBN041534106X&id=YEhkImyhmoIC&pg=PA38&lpg=PA37&vq=muhammad&dq=reforms+muhammad+inpublisher:routledge&sig=CEJNYoJTospTmuMcQDz8T7n9cdU

The book is written by Dr Colin Turner at Durham university and published by 2005. The Basics: Islam. Oxford: Routledge. --] 07:49, 14 November 2006 (UTC)
*For the record, I don't think we're looking for "misrepresentation of sources", but for an NPOV tilt to the article. And, according to Arrow740, whether the Hadith is a valid source. That is all. At least I don't ''think'' anyone's accusing you of misusing sources. -]<sup>]]</sup> 08:25, 14 November 2006 (UTC)

:Well I share other's doubts about the relevance of that engineer's opinion. No one is accusing Aminz of misrepresenting the engineer, though. ] 08:29, 14 November 2006 (UTC)

::If I may comment, I have often encountered in Aminz' editing a preoccupation with the issue of "source" and "misrepresentation of source", as if that were the chief and only possible concern. Other issues must be fixed as well. ] ] 08:40, 14 November 2006 (UTC)

:Do you mean this ? --] 08:45, 14 November 2006 (UTC)

:::Supposing you are addressing me, Aminz (the indent is ambiguous), I was giving my impression from the whole string of our altercations. As Aiden writes below "V" and "RS" are important, but so is NPOV. ] ] 11:54, 14 November 2006 (UTC)

] is not a substitute for ], Aminz. The article as a whole must be neutral. You cannot have 100% positive statements, even if sourced, and be neutral. Think about it. —] 09:27, 14 November 2006 (UTC)

:If a large chunk of scholarly literature supports one opinion, there should be some good reason behind it. And I believe that we, all as humans, should have some benefit from the innovation of modern research methodology in 20th century. A compromise on ] and ] can lead us to a very slippery slope. ]<sup>]</sup> 12:14, 14 November 2006 (UTC)
::And so will a compromise on NPOV. ] ] 13:21, 14 November 2006 (UTC)

:::This is only possible if you believe ] is in contradiction to ] and ]. And if ''yes'', then we better take this case to ] to change the rules. ]<sup>]</sup> 13:58, 14 November 2006 (UTC)
::The two absolutely ''can'' conflict. If I quoted a well-known right-wing scholar who said that Islam was traditionally a violent and suppressive religion (as many scholars maintain), then added to the article that Islam was "violent and suppresive", I doubt you guys would care if my source was "verifiable." It's POV. -]<sup>]]</sup> 16:36, 14 November 2006 (UTC)

:::Such POV definitely has a place on wikipedia, if it is notable. To the best of my knowledge, it has already been discussed in ]. ]<sup>]</sup> 16:54, 14 November 2006 (UTC)
::::It has a place there, and it has a place in the respective topic as well. IMHO the inclusion in topical articles is much better and much more important than the one in an criticism of X article, as theses articles are questionable anyway IMHO and also often of a bad quality (because they are often dominated by anti-Xists). And I don't think, most reader would search for criticism of X, but rather for X and then X and y. ] ] 17:07, 14 November 2006 (UTC)

:::But then we come up with the same problem, and we are going in circles. Even though POV has place on wikipedia, it essentially has to come from sources which are ] and ] compatible. Otherwise, wikipedia will be no different from other ]s on the internet. ]<sup>]</sup> 17:51, 14 November 2006 (UTC)
::::::There is absolutely no going round in circles. We simply have to adhere to all WP policies: V, RS, NOR, NPOV. None of these is optional. ] ] 10:49, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

::::When Aminz gets involved in an article, it quickly becomes a list of quotes from writers he likes. That's not a good thing. ] 20:43, 14 November 2006 (UTC)

::::Look like a lot more Truthspreader ] at ]. Now look at this! He comes here and say one thing BUT everywhere else he does the opposite! Always the original research!] 02:09, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

:::According to which standard, it is ]. The author which I quoted is a famous Islamic scholar, who is also member of ]. And the facts are accepted by all Muslims as part of ]. ]<sup>]</sup> 02:12, 15 November 2006 (UTC)
::::Your citation is fine BUT youre saying we cant use Hadith and Qur'an BUT thats exactly what youre doing all the time!] 02:18, 15 November 2006 (UTC)
:::::You just need to backup your primary sources with secondary sources. ]<sup>]</sup> 02:20, 15 November 2006 (UTC)
::::::Quoting a (primary) source is not OR if it is simply the statement that the source X says Y. If the editor added some kind of interpretation of his own, that would be OR. ] ] 10:58, 15 November 2006 (UTC)
:::And a nice to try to divert the discussion. ]<sup>]</sup> 02:18, 15 November 2006 (UTC)
::::Responding to TruthSpreader about "POV has a place" - I might point out that the article you're referring to, is titled "Criticism of Muhammed". The very point of it is to ''mention people's point of views.'' If this article were titled "Praise of Muhammed", then these things should be mentioned as ''people's POV's'' - though certainly not as facts here. As the article stands, much of it is sourced, yet presenting it as fact (e.g., "Muhammed was remarkably kind to animals for his time" - mentioned as someone's opinion somewhere else, but presented as fact under the caption of a camel). BTW, are you really saying that if I put a big chunk into this article about how Muhammed was a muderous, misogynist, animal-hating, gang leader (that was well-sourced by scholarship!), you would be OK with it? ]<sup>]]</sup> 02:19, 15 November 2006 (UTC)
::::This article, though not called ''Praise of Muhammad'', but still has the focus on the reforms, which were done by him. The amount of literature that is supporting these reforms, suggests itself that it deserves a place on wikipedia. ]<sup>]</sup> 02:24, 15 November 2006 (UTC)
::::::All true, but issues must be covered in its entirety, not picking out the (supposedly) positive or the (supposedly) negative bits. Reforms are, basically, simply changes, not necessarily positive ones. (Etymologically, the term implies a bringing something existing back into (original) form but in common usage that is largely lost). ] ] 10:58, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

The references used in this article. Isn't 18 scholarly work enough to show that Muhammad was a reformer. To this you can add the book is written by Dr Colin Turner at Durham university and published by 2005. The Basics: Islam. Oxford: Routledge.

# Encyclopedia of world history , Oxford University Press
# ]
# ]
# Watt
# ]
# Majid Khadduri
# Encyclopedia of religion, second edition, Lindsay Jones
# The Oxford Dictionary of Islam
# Bloom and Blair (2002)
# Michael J. Perry, The Idea of Human Rights: Four Inquiries, p.78, Oxford University Press US
# Yvonne Yazbeck Haddad, John L. Esposito, Islam, Gender, and Social Change, Oxford University Press US, 2004, p.163
# Gerhard Endress, Islam: An Introduction to Islam, Columbia University Press, 1988, p.31
# “Social Sciences and the Qur’an,” in Encyclopedia of the Qur’an, vol. 5, ed. Jane Dammen McAuliffe. Leiden: Brill, pp. 66-76.
# “Community and Soceity in the Qur'an,” in Encyclopedia of the Qur’an, vol. 1, ed. Jane Dammen McAuliffe. Leiden: Brill, pp. 385.
# Michael Bonner
# The Cambridge history of Islam (1970
# Minou Reeves, Muhammad in Europe, New York University Press,
# Seyyed Hossein Nasr, The Heart of Islam: Enduring Values for Humanity,

If these many sources say something, then there should be at least some truth in it. --] 07:39, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

::If these sources say something, we should state that. However, we should be careful in affirming truth. ] ] 10:58, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

:Mild reforms of a very backward society. Big deal. Why do you bring this up? ] 09:46, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

:::Mild reforms!! Islam brought changes to a very backward society which represented a very considerable advance on the practice of both the Greco-Roman and the ancient Iranian world. Islam gave such status to women of a very backward society, that no other culture accorded their Women with until centuries later. Sure. Mild reforms of a backward society! Not a big deal! --] 20:52, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

::::It is hard not to become sarcastic after this surrreal utterance, Aminz. Advance to the Greco-Roman world? Give me a break! Islamic civilisation conquered the most civilised regions to that date, the Hellenistic and Persian Orient. It landed on top of the mountain, for which it often takes the credit, and hasn't developed much since. The backward society can only reasonably refer to Arabian, even there matters are not that easy. Watt (I think it was he) uses a somewhat tricky and complicated theory to turn M's treatment of women into a progress. He says, women traditionally had many rights but where on their way down, so Islam helped them not sink any further. ] ] 23:33, 15 November 2006 (UTC)
::::NO other culture? Thats a lot of cultures you must have a LOT of sources to say that. ONly source you have is about Arabs NOT any other cultures. Are you SURE status of women was lower in Rome?] 01:11, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

"Women were not accorded with such legal status in other cultures, including the West, until centuries later" Encyclopedia of religion states. --] 01:35, 16 November 2006 (UTC)
:What legal status?] 01:52, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

The right to inherit; limitations on Man's right to divorce; the right for woman to herself administer the wealth she has brought into the family or has earned by her own work, right of property ownership and the right of education. --] 02:01, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

:Muslim societies are backward because of Islam. As regards inheritance (which in the west is split evenly between boys and girls, but not in Muslim societies because of Muhammad), the Quran gives inconsistent commands regarding it, but it is clear that girls get the short end of the stick, because of their gender. ] 02:39, 16 November 2006 (UTC)
:True Arrow740 but Aminz is talking about its effect back then.

:Aminz inheritance I dont know what rules were for the inheritance in Roman empire or the divorce. Maybe. Wait though right to EDUCATION? Like from the 20th century. who had 'right to education' before then? Muslim girls in Arabia? Sounding like they had the right to health care! From the opposite view are you sure it was banned to have the educating of the girls in the Roman Empire? I never heard anything like that did you?] 05:32, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

== Justification by comparison ==

Can we please keep the referrences to Judaism and Christianity to a minumum, at least in this article? They were not very important forces in Arabia during this period. So it is not appropriate to discuss "improvements" Islam made upon them here. If we are going to open that whole can of worms then we will have to have a more general discussion of the differences between Islam and the other two religions as regards the status of women, polygamy, warfare, etc, and I don't think that's what you guys want. ] 22:08, 14 November 2006 (UTC)

:No. We would like to show what Muhammad did at that time. As you said, Arabs had the one of the most backward societies of the time. So, reforms in that society by itself wasn't a big deal. But bringing changes that advanced them several centuries ahead of other societies is on focus and relevant. --] 22:43, 15 November 2006 (UTC)
::Ahead of WHAT other societes?

Ahead of Greco-Roman and the ancient Iranian world. --] 01:36, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

Uhmm...no. I won't address the Iran issue, but the Greco-Roman period was long over when Muhammad came onto the scene. If you want to compare the caliphate with anything compare it with its contemporaries. If you want to compare Islam's (un)enlightened everlasting stands on things like polygamy, apostasy, punishments, revenge, killing dogs, etc, then compare it to Christianity and Judaism as they existed when M came on the scene. ] 02:25, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

:In fact if it is what many scholars say, that Islam was largely a repackaging of Judaism mixed in with Arabian customs, the good parts of Islam probably come from Judaism. ] 02:27, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

Bring one of those many scholars(not spencer, ali sina,... these are not scholars), and add it to the article. --] 06:11, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

:They are scholars. Look up "scholar." ] 06:27, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

==Be Bold==
Mind if i get bold and separate this article into one about the Prophet and another one about the Caliphs? --] 00:23, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

Striver, the main focus of the article is on Muhammad. I've just included the Caliphas since some of the ideas of Muhammad might have been implemented later. --] 07:24, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

Striver and Aminz, I think we may as well include ideas by M. later implemented by the caliphs even if the article is titled "by Muhammad". But there's no need to rush for a renaming. ] ] 10:46, 15 November 2006 (UTC)
:I could agree with Str1977, as long as the main focus in on the Prophet. So, what should the name be, to reflect that the focus is on Muhammad (as), and to standardize it with the other articles with on the template?--] 13:55, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

==The Tiring Quotes==

Aminz everyone telling you PLEASE stop making the quote farm!.
Also what does it mean the 'spiritual poverty'? Sounding different than what you probably wanna say.

'Muhammad's mission as a prophet included preaching against the social evils of his day.'

NOBODY has the doctorate to qualify these judgements of what is evil. If you dont accept rephrasing to what he SAW as the evil then shouldnt be here. WHO is the author of this? its just the name of the book.

Manning though is the good source here so thank you.] 00:58, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

:It reads like a teenage girl talking about her crush. ] 02:28, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

This is what the source says and it is attributed to the source. The source views them as social evil, not only Muhammad. --] 06:09, 16 November 2006 (UTC)
:They have the degree in good vs. evil studies?] 06:23, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

:I was referring to both your writing and your quotes. Keep a neutral point of view. It is not a fact that he had a "mission as a prophet:" that is an interpretation. I would say, he had a mission as a egomaniacal anti-Semite with an unhealthy lust for booty. Report the facts, not excessive interpretation and biased wording of pro-Islam scholars. ] 06:27, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

==Some Ideas of Aminz==
I have a suggestion: We can bring the (feeling) of neutrality back to this article by comparing the legislation from a modern point of view. As for example Watt says historically Muhammad was someone who stood for women's right but of course Islam doesn't give strict equal rights to men and women. There were definitely reforms on regulations on "divorce" but for example in Islam while woman can initiate the divorce, but then she has to return all the gifts she has recieved from the husband at marriage, and that some consent of the husband is still required (if the husband starts divorce, then he has to pay something to the woman i believe, so it is economically good for woman). But if we want to add these, we should also add the justifications scholars put forward for such laws, which at the end of the day imply that the laws were good for that time but now the society has changed. I am also in the process of including a POV from another scholar who agrees with Annemarie Schimmel that "In the earliest centuries of Islam, the position of women was not bad at all. Only over the course of centuries was she increasingly confined to the house and was forced to veil herself" but believes that the later conservative interpretation of Islam was what Islam intended at the beginning but couldn't do at that time because the pre-Islamic influences. --] 01:19, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

Another point worthy to mention is that our knowledge of pre-islamic arabia is limited and that influences our understanding of the reforms. That is, the reader should have a feeling of the certainty behind some of the statements. The other point worthy of mentioning is that there were some reforms going on in Arabia at that time; or that the opportunity for doing such reforms was given to Muhammad. Although Watt states that without such personal qualifications that Muhammad had together with his firm belief in his mission such changes wouldn't have occured, but Watt says Muhammad was so lucky to be at that time in that place of the world. --] 01:28, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

Another point is that although the Qur'an gave the framework for the regulations, but nevertheless some were put in practice later so that those people also have some share in it, though Watt says that the sucess in doing so shows Muhammad's insight. --] 01:31, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

I don't spend time reading Watt for a very good reason. Please don't quote excessively on the talk page. If you want to prove something to yourself about Muhammad, use another medium. ] 01:33, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

How about Lewis? --] 01:36, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

'''Comment''': We as wikipedians have no right to judge that how much a source is credible or not. It is the '''publisher''' and to some extent, the author, that shows the credibility of the source. Our job as wikipedians is no more than putting the opinions from ] and ] compatible sources, even to achieve ]. Other ways will just deteriote the quality of information availabe on this encyclopedia. ]<sup>]</sup> 05:58, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

:What does that have to do with this? It's relevance, not credibility that is the question. I'm not saying you can't include Watt's material in this article. I'm saying I find his writing and opinions to be largely a waste of my time. ] 06:27, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

::Mate! nobody is talking about you. My comment was generally regarding the article, in which we find everyday someone plucking out scholarly opinions. It is the censoring of information of scholarly sources in the name of "NPOV" happening on this article, that is really annoying. ]<sup>]</sup> 06:41, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

:::If it violates NPOV we have every right to remove it. ] 06:58, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

:::The only thing took out was the engineer and the art historians. Everything else was only reworded to stop being the quote farm. 'If you want to enter lists of quotations, put them into our sister project Wikiquote.'] 07:00, 16 November 2006 (UTC)
:Arrow et all: I asked you specifically to help me out and to keep your bickering in the other sections. I have consistently tried to help out with dispute in these articles but in all earnestness, sometimes it doesn't quite appear that you guys want help. I'm done with this article, and with any opinion I would have given to help out the NPOV. ]<sup>]]</sup> 07:28, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

==Some discussion==
:Did I not specifically ask that this section not have bickering in it, but only a statement for the RfC? Please remove your dispute and put it elsewhere, and put your concise statement for rfc in this section. ]<sup>]]</sup> 01:41, 16 November 2006 (UTC)
::Isn't it considered rude to move other peoples' statements on article talk pages? ] 02:29, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

I just added a new section. You have done the same thing which is okay since you were addressing particular comments of mine. --] 03:00, 16 November 2006 (UTC)
:Arrow, I didn't move your comment, Aminz did, but I support him. I specifically made a request when I started this section which you bluntly ignored. I might remind you that I happen to think you're right. Now are you going to continue to argue incessantly or can I create a section for rfc comments that won't be disrupted by more arguing? If you have a point, state it in your own words under the section, like I asked. ]<sup>]]</sup> 03:44, 16 November 2006 (UTC)
::If you look at the history of the discussion page you will get the full story. I wrote my quote in response to the last two paragraphs of Aminz in the above section. Aminz moved it here. I then moved the two paragraphs down here. He left them here, but put them back above also. So I moved mine back up there and deleted everything from down here. Do whatever you want, but please keep my response to Aminz in the same section as the paragraphs I was responding to. ] 04:08, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

== "Professor" ==

It is unencyclopedic to write "professor" in front of everyone's name. Also, keep the tone neutral and state everything from a neutral point of view (just the facts). If you need help doing this read ]. ] 06:34, 16 November 2006 (UTC)


== Statements for RfC ==

I'm going to create this header so that everyone has a chance to make a statement as to what they think the problem is, or a response, and any RfC commentator can much more easily come in and evaluate the situation. Honestly, it's a little messy right now. If you must respond to someone else's comment, please keep it brief in this section. ]<sup>]]</sup> 01:03, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

=== Statements from User:Aminz ===
I have a suggestion: We can bring the (feeling) of neutrality back to this article by comparing the legislation from a modern point of view. As for example Watt says historically Muhammad was someone who stood for women's right but of course Islam doesn't give strict equal rights to men and women. There were definitely reforms on regulations on "divorce" but for example in Islam while woman can initiate the divorce, but then she has to return all the gifts she has recieved from the husband at marriage, and that some consent of the husband is still required (if the husband starts divorce, then he has to pay something to the woman i believe, so it is economically good for woman). But if we want to add these, we should also add the justifications scholars put forward for such laws, which at the end of the day imply that the laws were good for that time but now the society has changed. I am also in the process of including a POV from another scholar who agrees with Annemarie Schimmel that "In the earliest centuries of Islam, the position of women was not bad at all. Only over the course of centuries was she increasingly confined to the house and was forced to veil herself" but believes that the later conservative interpretation of Islam was what Islam intended at the beginning but couldn't do at that time because the pre-Islamic influences. --] 01:19, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

Another point worthy to mention is that our knowledge of pre-islamic arabia is limited and that influences our understanding of the reforms. That is, the reader should have a feeling of the certainty behind some of the statements. The other point worthy of mentioning is that there were some reforms going on in Arabia at that time; or that the opportunity for doing such reforms was given to Muhammad. Although Watt states that without such personal qualifications that Muhammad had together with his firm belief in his mission such changes wouldn't have occured, but Watt says Muhammad was so lucky to be at that time in that place of the world. --] 01:28, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

Another point is that although the Qur'an gave the framework for the regulations, but nevertheless some were put in practice later so that those people also have some share in it, though Watt says that the sucess in doing so shows Muhammad's insight. --] 01:31, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

===Statement from User:TruthSpreader ===
'''Comment''': We as wikipedians have no right to judge that how much a source is credible or not. It is the '''publisher''' and to some extent, the author, that shows the credibility of the source. Our job as wikipedians is no more than putting the opinions from ] and ] compatible sources, even to achieve ]. Other ways will just deteriote the quality of information availabe on this encyclopedia. ]<sup>]</sup> 05:58, 16 November 2006 (UTC)
:My concern is regarding this article, in which we find everyday someone plucking out scholarly opinions. It is the censoring of information of scholarly sources in the name of "NPOV" happening on this article, that is really annoying.]<sup>]</sup> 09:30, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

===Statement from User: ===

Latest revision as of 01:49, 17 January 2024

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NPOV in status of women section

Currently it makes it seem like there is a consensus that the adoption of Islam improved women's status. According to http://books.google.com/books?id=zOAo9VvT4FEC&pg=PA77&sig=IiMFAyu6P3-rNii4QQmN_q3mXQQ, there is healthy scholarly debate about whether the changes were good for women. This is also now a problem in the Women and Islam article, which I believe was previously more balanced. Calliopejen1 (talk) 20:06, 19 February 2008 (UTC) Calliopejen1 (talk) 20:06, 19 February 2008 (UTC)

Please be bold and improve the article, but also please note that we are only discussing the impact of Islam on the women within the early years of Islam. That is, we are not dealing with the later "interpretation of jurists, local traditions, and social trends which brought about a decline in the status of Muslim women." Cheers, --Be happy!! (talk) 22:13, 19 February 2008 (UTC)

Title

It's much better to change the title to "Early social changes under Islam". Alefbe (talk) 01:51, 20 October 2008 (UTC)

First welfare state

This says that the early Islamic imperium was the first welfare state. Was not the Maurya Rajavamsa of Bharata under Asoka a welfare state? 96.255.208.108 (talk) 16:59, 5 February 2011 (UTC)

Rome was a welfare state. 2600:1702:2340:9470:997C:8A80:E3E5:88C4 (talk) 21:35, 8 August 2019 (UTC)

Misuse of sources

This article has been edited by a user who is known to have misused sources to unduly promote certain views (see WP:Jagged 85 cleanup). Examination of the sources used by this editor often reveals that the sources have been selectively interpreted or blatantly misrepresented, going beyond any reasonable interpretation of the authors' intent.

Diffs for each edit made by Jagged 85 are listed at Cleanup3. It may be easier to view the full history of the article.

A script has been used to generate the following summary. Each item is a diff showing the result of several consecutive edits to the article by Jagged 85, in chronological order.

Johnuniq (talk) 09:51, 9 November 2011 (UTC)

Removed these parts. Added a tag as the article lacks a nuanced approach, depicting changes mostly as improvements and generelly following an epistemological line of describing things becoming better, more advanced, more just, more generous under Islamic rule etc. etc. Gun Powder Ma (talk) 11:06, 10 November 2011 (UTC)

Qur'an does require women to wear veils

I'm a little confused, I know that it's someone elses assertion but it's entirely false the Qur'an does order women to cover themselves with their jalabeeb (Jilbab). What proof is there otherwise? Muwwahid (talk) 14:54, 25 November 2011 (UTC)


I on the other hand.... do not agree... only men who have a basic fear of women would decree such. I dont think Mohammed was anything that male with no fear of women. That think came later from the fears of immature men and their need to control everything within their meagre reach. Dont agree with me... *shrugs* ... I care less, but I would say .. examine your OWN motives. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.32.225.33 (talk) 00:07, 7 July 2012 (UTC)

Pseudohistory

This article is rubbish. John Esposito is notorious for his favorable opinions of Islam. The man owes his professorial tenure to Islamic endowments. Talk about conflict of interest!--74.190.107.228 (talk) 12:18, 27 November 2016 (UTC)

So, can you suggest some persons who give opposite opinions with valid, verifiable, reliable sources for this article? Swingoswingo (talk) 15:36, 27 November 2016 (UTC)
As Swingoswingo says, if you want to address possible WP:NPOV violations in this article, you should consult reliable sources that reflect alternative points of view and summarize them here, or verify the already cited sources to make sure they're reflected correctly. As of now, your edits have no basis in WP policy. Not only does Esposito's book meet criteria for RS, the statement you've changed is sourced by five other mainstream academic citations, and the pseudohistory and revisionism labels are based on nothing more than your personal opinion, in violation of WP:NOR. Eperoton (talk) 18:49, 27 November 2016 (UTC)

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Needs serious revisions

Hey all,

I've tried to tidy up this page a bit, given the severe issues it had due to a now-banned user (among other issues). Unfortunately, it is still a mess. I've inserted more sources, and tried to include more female and non-Western sources (the article previously relied almost entirely on two American men and zero women from Muslim backgrounds) but it still needs a lot of work. In particular, the "Moral Changes", "Economic Changes", and "Civil Changes" sections (ending with "Arabia was rid of famine for all the times to come" which is certainly not correct...) need a lot of help. The section on the Arab conquests is also clearly written in a NPOV manner and I'll try to fix that a bit, but my knowledge here is limited. Anyone who knows of any good sources on those issues, please feel free to add as many as you want. Dragoon17 (talk) 19:44, 4 August 2018 (UTC)

@Dragoon17: Thanks, this made a great overall improvement to the article. Leila Ahmed's views in particular have been influential and really needed to be included. Looking at the diff, I do see some material deleted for no apparent reason (as WP:ES states, it's considered good practice to use edit summaries), which I'm going to restore. If you have concerns about it, please discuss. I've read some good sources while working on Early Muslim conquests, so I'll take a look at that section. Eperoton (talk) 23:49, 5 August 2018 (UTC)
Ok, so the three historians cited on the Arab conquests all lean toward the same sympathetic perspective and the counterbalancing material violates WP:PRIMARY. More generally, the question of whether Jews and Christians were better or worse off under the Arabs isn't really what this article is about, or at least not solely. I wrote some stuff on early social changes in Early_Muslim_conquests#Socio-political_developments. Eperoton (talk) 00:13, 6 August 2018 (UTC)
Thanks! I don't have any issues with the changes, beyond this one, which I do think should at least be rephrased as it is inaccurate (the second sentence, I mean): "John Esposito states that the reforms affected marriage, divorce, and inheritance. Women were not accorded with such legal status in other cultures, including the West, until centuries later". "Other cultures" is extremely broad imo, and while it's unclear what "legal status" is being referred to here (I assume the ability to divorce or inherit wealth/property/general status--or marry someone of their choosing?) it is not factually correct, even focusing on semi-contemporary figures like Jindeok of Silla or Theodora. I guess we could add a sentence or two after that saying "Others have argued that this is a simplistic view of history and various cultures predating this era afforded women the right to inherit. For example, Guy Halsall believes it is not possible to generalize marriage and divorce laws across western Europe in the early Middle Ages, as several Germanic peoples appear to have allowed women to permanently separate from their husbands " etc etc, but that seems to be really, really far beyond the topic of the article, so I don't wanna add anything like that in. I'll leave it up to you to decide if it the sentence should be rephrased or not.
And yeah I had a lot of problems finding usable sources for that section, keeping it short and sweet and linking to Early Muslim conquests is probably the better option. Cheers Dragoon17 (talk) 20:29, 11 August 2018 (UTC)
@Dragoon17: Thanks for the explanation. I've looked up the cited source. It's from the entry on Muhammad by Karen Armstrong and it reads: "The Quran gave women rights of inheritance and divorce centuries before women in other cultures, including the West, were accorded such legal status." I generally don't cite Armstrong as her scholarly credentials aren't the strongest, but the encyclopedia is a RS. It's not the first RS where I come across a statement of this kind. Your concerns are reasonable, though in using one source to argue against another we should be wary of WP:SYNTH. In this case, I think it would be sufficient to act within limits of clarification. This statement doesn't have to be read as applying to all other cultures, in the West or elsewhere. I'll tweak the phrasing and add attribution.
I'll try to improve the section on Arab conquests later. Eperoton (talk) 23:22, 13 August 2018 (UTC)

Confusion

about this: "John Esposito states that "women were given inheritance rights in a patriarchal society that had previously restricted inheritance to male relatives," Similarly, Annemarie Schimmel wrote that "Compared to the pre-Islamic position of women, Islamic legislation meant an enormous progress; the woman has the right, at least according to the letter of the law, to administer the wealth she has brought into the family or has earned by her own work". Didnt Khadija (RA) own a business before/while married? She inherited from her previous husband when he died? this seems to be conflicting with the article of Khadija (RA). Either this is wrong or that is wrong because it does not make sense to say that women could not previously inherit or hold wealth & property on their own, while also saying that this woman inherited property and wealth on her own. Please fix — Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.70.63.74 (talk) 22:58, 22 March 2019 (UTC)

Orphaned references in Early social changes under Islam

I check pages listed in Category:Pages with incorrect ref formatting to try to fix reference errors. One of the things I do is look for content for orphaned references in wikilinked articles. I have found content for some of Early social changes under Islam's orphans, the problem is that I found more than one version. I can't determine which (if any) is correct for this article, so I am asking for a sentient editor to look it over and copy the correct ref content into this article.

Reference named "Ahmed":

  • From Women in Islam: Ahmed, Ali S. V.; Jibouri, Yasin T. (2004). The Koran: Translation. Elmhurst, NY: Tahrike Tarsile Qurān. Print.
  • From Islam: Ahmed, Imad-ad-Dean. Signs in the heavens. 2. Amana Publications, 2006. Print. ISBN 1-59008-040-8 pp. 23, 42, 84.

    "Despite the fact that they did not have a quantified theory of error they were well aware that an increased number of observations qualitatively reduces the uncertainty."

  • From Islam and violence: Ahmed, Ali S. V.; Jibouri, Yasin T. (2004). The Koran: Translation. Elmhurst, NY: Tahrike Tarsile Qur'ān. Print.

I apologize if any of the above are effectively identical; I am just a simple computer program, so I can't determine whether minor differences are significant or not. AnomieBOT⚡ 18:55, 7 July 2020 (UTC)

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