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==Cuban sex trade==
{{WikiProject banner shell|class=C|vital=yes|1=
{{WikiProject Travel and Tourism|importance=high}}
{{WikiProject Sexology and sexuality|importance=mid|sex-workers=yes|sex-workers-importance=high}}
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== Misplaced Pages Ambassador Program assignment ==
The charge that Cuba is encouraging the sex trade is a political one that has no basis in fact, according to sociology professor Nelson Valdes:
This article is the subject of an ] at Rice University supported by the ] during the 2015 Spring term. Further details are available ].]
:http://www.counterpunch.org/valdes10182003.html


{{small|Above message substituted from {{tlc|WAP assignment}} on 14:41, 7 January 2023 (UTC)}}
Further, by defining sex tourism to include only travel from wealthy to poorer countries, the raging legal sex trade of the US state of Nevada is covered up. --] 21:05, 18 Oct 2003 (UTC)


==Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment==
] This article was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment, between <span class="mw-formatted-date" title="2021-08-23">23 August 2021</span> and <span class="mw-formatted-date" title="2021-12-10">10 December 2021</span>. Further details are available ]. Student editor(s): ].


{{small|Above undated message substituted from ] by ] (]) 09:03, 17 January 2022 (UTC)}}
--------------------
==Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment==
] This article was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment, between <span class="mw-formatted-date" title="2021-02-15">15 February 2021</span> and <span class="mw-formatted-date" title="2021-05-06">6 May 2021</span>. Further details are available ]. Student editor(s): ].


{{small|Above undated message substituted from ] by ] (]) 09:03, 17 January 2022 (UTC)}}
Excuse me, nobody said in this article that Cuba (or any other country) was encouaging the sex trade; no country would be that stupid. In fact the Cuban government has done much (although with limited success) to try to curtail/discourage sex tourism within its borders.
== Can we talk about that map of the USA? ==


The North America map has a grey area representing the State of Nevada, where prostitution laws vary by country. That being said, the grey shape on the red US outline looks ''nothing'' like Nevada. Can someone correct that please? <!-- Template:Unsigned IP --><small class="autosigned">—&nbsp;Preceding ] comment added by ] (]) 18:31, 1 January 2019 (UTC)</small> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->
However, the sex trade *IS* rampant there, I can personally attest to that! <g>


== Contributing ==
Don't even get me started on that wacko leftist rag that you are quoting as fact! This is not the proper forum to espouse your political agenda. Select a more widely accepted publication, and maybe everyone here won't think you're a crackpot.


Hi! I would like to contribute information to this page.
Now, as for the "raging" sex trade in Nevada.... Cover up?? Please!
--] (]) 19:22, 19 March 2019 (UTC)


== Gay Sex Tourism ==
A couple of overpriced brothel "ranches" in the middle of the desert do not qualify as a "raging" sex trade. Only the Donald Trumps and Bill Gates of the world could count Nevada as a sex tourist destination (and it would still be a poor one at that!) Chances are some of those girls in Nevada make more than most of us!


Hi, I think this page is missing a section on gay sex tourism so I am currently working on it. ] (]) 18:23, 26 March 2019 (UTC)
A sex worker in Thailand or Cuba earning $50 a day is doing well!!


== Expanding on Opposition ==
Sorry, but when I see stupidity, I must rant...


Hi, I feel the Opposition section could use some expansion. I added violence as a factor for sex workers as well as HIV statistics amongst sex workers. ] (]) 06:34, 15 April 2019 (UTC)
-]


: {{reply|Lifeisgood20}} Hi, I didn't see any statistics about HIV, just an out of date assertions that " risk of HIV and other sexually transmitted diseases is high among persons who exchange sex for money or non-monetary items". This was true 20 or 30 years ago in many third world countries, but thanks to education, condom campaigns, access to healthcare etc, ] figures suggest HIV prevalence amongst sex workers is no longer significantly higher than the general population in most countries.
: Yes, because CLEARLY no one goes to Las Vegas to take advantage of the direct-to-your-hotel-room "escorts" whose brightly colored advertisements are handed to you as you walk down the strip. Prostitution may not be technically legal in Vegas, but the ban against it is not enforced -- perhaps because sex tourism is a big part of what drives the LV economy. -- ] 19:32, 15 Oct 2004 (UTC)


: Whilst there is violence against sex workers, I haven't seen any evidence that sex tourism increases this. Figures for the US, which is generally not a destination for sex tourism, are irrelevant here. --] (]) 17:15, 15 April 2019 (UTC)
Prostitution exists everywhere, by your definition then ALL cities everywhere should be on this list.
There isn't enough room, and honestly isn't in the spirit of giving anyone any real USEFUL information. I've been to Vegas, I've also been to Bangkok, Rio, Havana and several other places on the list; there really is NO comparison. I'm not here to argue however, you want Nevada on this list FINE; but I'm certainly not going to leave it at the TOP of this list where you (or someone) decided to place it.--] 03:54, 13 Apr 2005 (UTC)


:: {{reply|John B123}} Hi, thank you for your feedback. I am curious, if my expansion on HIV was better supported with more up to date material, would you find that its place in opposition of sex tourism, should revert? As far as violence amongst sex workers, I find that its prevalence should remain in this catagory because, even though sex tourism isn't a "legal" market in the US as it may be in other countries, there is still a large underground sex tourism market, which should not go ignored. Therefore we also shouldn't ignore the violence that these sex workers (legal or not) endure. What are your thoughts? ] (]) 02:40, 16 April 2019 (UTC)
Let me try to explain my rationale on this a bit better... Suppose Kris Kringle (living in the North Pole) decides to go somewhere warmer for summer vacation. He may very well pick Alaska, which to HIM is a warmer location. (Alaska would be the "Las Vegas" in your argument.) Now Kris could go online and think "Wow, I saw a complete lack of snow in Anchorage last summer." and therefore decides to add Anchorage, Alaska to a list of "popular destinations to enjoy warm weather". While from his perspective, he is right; from a GLOBAL perspective he is dead wrong. Trust me, as a die-hard whore monger I would love nothing more than to have a REAL "sex tourist" destination here in the US. There are many factors that define a good "sex tourist" destination as seen from a GLOBAL perspective, of these factors "legality" is probably the LEAST important. Prostitution is "technically" illegal in MOST sex tourist destinations (Thailand, Cambodia, etc). Zero enforcement in these countries helps, but it goes beyond that. Price, attitude (of the women), exotic location make up the bulk of the rest of the reasons these places are popular with the mongers. Las Vegas and Amsterdam do not have these reasons. Las Vegas probably has the lowest "bang for your buck" factor of any POSSIBLE sex tourist destination. If I want to drink, gamble, watch Wayne Newton, or pay $300 for a 30 minute "session" in my hotel room with a mean-spirited plastic-injected 30 something barbie doll then absolutely I want to go to Vegas. If I want to spend $30-$50 for a full night of the best sex ever with a beautiful, natural woman who knows no clock and still wants to be with you after the sun rises then I go to Thailand. --] 03:54, 13 Apr 2005 (UTC)


::: {{reply|Lifeisgood20}} Hi, objections such as health risks, violence, stigmatism etc are more general objections against prostitution rather than specifically objections to sex tourism so would be more appropriately addressed in the ] article, unless of course there is evidence that sex tourists behave more violently or take more health risks.
--------------------
::: There is also the problem of over-generalisation. Iceland, surprisingly, has become a sex tourism destination for men from Northern Europe in recent years. Both HIV and violence against women are extremely low in the country. Compare that with Bahrain, a middle east destination for sex tourism, where generally women are second class citizens and prostitution carries harsh sentences, violence is likely to be high because there is little risk of the victim reporting it. In sub-Saharan Africa, HIV prevalence rates are high amongst the general population, so compared to Iceland sex tourism to say Kenya carries higher risks.
::: Additionally, grouping sex workers together can also be misleading. Using your figures for the US, the murder rate quoted will be far less for legal sex workers in Nevada, but far higher for street workers in inner cities who prostitute themselves to feed their drug habits.
::: I do think there should be included in the article, although not as opposition as it is historical, the spread of HIV in the 1980s and 1990s through sex tourism. Prior to understanding HIV, it's causes, prevention and care, particularly by the general public, sex tourism did play a part in the spread of HIV. Sex tourism to sub-Saharan Africa, especially Kenya, and gay sex tourism to Haiti are the usually quoted examples. --] (]) 17:02, 16 April 2019 (UTC)


The subject needs more to compare with. One can go to a nightclub in Goa and experience violence and HIV. How is sex tourism per se any better or worse? Nobody has the numbers. The authors of papers sound as if they have never left academia, and are relying upon subjective tales from people who perhaps don't enjoy having casual sex with strangers.] (]) 12:35, 27 July 2021 (UTC)
Would Amsterdam be a good country to add to the list of popular destinations for sex tourism? -- ] 19:32, 15 Oct 2004 (UTC)


== Russian law and its Enforcement ==
A better choice than Nevada, but only marginally so. If your not a sex monger you wouldn't understand this. See my previous message. --] 03:54, 13 Apr 2005 (UTC)


{{diff2|1049339522|1049260772|07:55, October 11, 2021}} - ''«Undid revision 1049260772 by John B123 talk) we should clarify which countries don't enforce the formal prohibition strictly»'' <br>
--------------------
{{diff2|1049260772|1049250505|20:22, October 10, 2021}} - ''«Undid revision 1049250505 by Alexander Davronov talk) Probably true of other countries too»'' <br>
{{diff2|1049250505|1047908876|19:05, October 10, 2021}} - ''«‎Prostitution across the globe»''
: {{re|John B123}} I propose to keep details because it's unclear whether the laws are alive or dead. Best.
<span style="font-weight: bold" >] ] ]</span> 07:58, 11 October 2021 (UTC)


: {{re|Alexander_Davronov}} Firstly your additions are unreferenced, secondly, I'm not sure this is the right article to bring out enforcement of prostitution unless it has a direct impact on sex tourism.
National preferences.
: Your additions have been reverted. Per ], you need to gain consensus here before re-adding them. --] (]) 08:25, 11 October 2021 (UTC)
This is mostly written with regard to Western and I presume north American preferences, does anyone have anything useful to add about Japanese sex tourism. I'd like to add something about Japanese sex tourism and sex tour groups to China (basically your run of the mill coach trip but with sex laid on). However I don't know if it would be just pure jingoism on the part of the Chinese press, to believe that another motivation for Japanese sex tourism to China, is the desire to humiliate the Chinese(in a notorious case a tour coincided with the annivesary of the beginning of the Japanese invasion of China).] 07:51, 18 September 2005 (UTC)
::{{re|John B123}} You are advised to ] such information first; please see ]<br>{{re|John B123}} Relative to ]]: I added it by mistake; I know about talk. <span style="font-weight: bold" >] ] ]</span> 09:11, 11 October 2021 (UTC)
::{{re|John B123}} I've added sources to a similar statement, take a look: ]]; The section was badly arranged/named so I didn't notice that there is a duplicate; I propose to close this discussion <span style="font-weight: bold" >] ] ]</span> 09:44, 11 October 2021 (UTC)


== Unclear definition ==
---------------------------


The opening sentence is: "Sex tourism refers to the practice of traveling to foreign countries, often on a different continent, with the intention of engaging in sexual activity or relationships in exchange for money or lifestyle support."
"American men are also known to travel to developed countries such as Canada, the United Kingdom "
This definition seems to say that sex tourism is traveling to another country and have sex in order to receive money or lifestyle support. I don't think that's correct. Aren't the people who practice sex tourism those who travel to another country and PAY locals there for sex? ] (]) 10:59, 17 April 2023 (UTC)
Is there really any evidence of this? I don't believe the UK is considered a sex tourist destination, especially as brothels are illegal, and London is a famously expensive place. ] 15:24, 11 October 2005 (UTC)


:I added an edit for this ] (]) 08:18, 1 September 2024 (UTC)
I removed that line as, as far as I know, that prostitution '''is''' illegal in these countries, while the line seems to imply otherwise. ] 22:13, 19 October 2005 (UTC)


==Wiki Education assignment: Sex, Gender, and Culture==
:Prostitution itself is legal in Canada and in the UK, however several surrounding activities are illegal. But I agree: there's defintely no significant sex tourism from the US to either of those countries. ] 04:03, 26 November 2005 (UTC)
{{dashboard.wikiedu.org assignment | course = Misplaced Pages:Wiki_Ed/Northern_Kentucky_University/Sex,_Gender,_and_Culture_(Fall_2023) | assignments = ] | reviewers = ] | start_date = 2023-08-21 | end_date = 2023-12-08 }}


<span class="wikied-assignment" style="font-size:85%;">— Assignment last updated by ] (]) 14:23, 23 October 2023 (UTC)</span>
:Depends what you consider 'significant', I suppose? The Detroit-based adultmb.com (a discussion board for clients of "female escorts") is all but monopolised with info about Windsor, Ontario (as outcall prostitution is not unlawful there, unlike in the US). The "Dave from Phoenix" sites sexwork.com sexworktoronto.com also advocate travel from the US to Canada due to restrictive American laws. At what point is this "sex tourism"? Dunno. Détroit to Windsor is (geographically) almost the same city, Phoenix to Toronto is rather distant. Where does one draw the line in defining "tourism" if between adjacent countries? --] 17:02, 8 July 2006 (UTC)


==Singapore & Batam== == Grammar ==
Singapore has no such law, in spite of being adjacent to the sex tourism destination of Batam in Indonesia.


The following quote from this article does not form a sentence, and has no meaning: "The World Tourism Organization of the United Nations has acknowledged about this industry is organized both within and outside the structured laws and networks created by them." ] (]) 19:54, 25 November 2023 (UTC)
I deleted this line and it was added back in... does it seem kinda out of place or random to anyone else?


== Male sex tourism ==
:When deleting, please put a reason in the Edit Summary. Also, please sign your comments.


How come there is no definite information about male sex tourism?
:I wrote the line, and I agree it needs work. But being incomplete is better than not being there. Other Wikipedians can add other examples that they know of, and/or I will add more information as I'm able to.
Although the article hints that male sex tourism is more common, there is no information found about it. While female sex tourism even got its own Misplaced Pages page.


Is this just because of sensationalism? I would really like to get some reliable information, especially regarding the numbers and other countries than South East Asia. Is there a way to flag a Misplaced Pages article so that hopefully experts on the field get it brought to their attention? The way it is know, people are none the wiser after reading this page. ] (]) 16:54, 9 April 2024 (UTC)
:The issue I believe deserves to be highlighted. Singapore I think is unusual in being adjacent to the child sex tourism destination. Thus a law in Singapore targeting child sex would be particularly significant. However I welcome alternative views.


== The 250,000 number ==
:Another reason I wasn't inclined to take your edit seriously is that you, or someone using your IP address, has made a habit of vandalizing Misplaced Pages articles (e.g. "Lee the bastard").


Given the suspicion behind other ] in this field and the general difficulty of estimating criminal behavior I've been trying to track down the original source of this statistic and the citation leads to nothing because of link rot:
:If you wish to contribute, please do so, but 1. do it in a constructive way, 2. fill in the edit summary, and 3. preferably create an account.


The . (.) is dead and links to that isn't archived on the wayback machine.
:--] 05:15, 27 November 2005 (UTC)


There are other sources which also list the 250,000 number and I which cites this paper https://www.researchgate.net/publication/281066431_SEX_TRAFFICKING_IN_THE_TOURISM_INDUSTR that claims the number is from World Vision Australia.


Looking at modern publications from World Vision Australia such as https://www.worldvision.com.au/docs/default-source/buy-ethical-fact-sheets/trafficking-and-sexual-exploitation-fact-sheet.pdf?sfvrsn=2


it states that "It is impossible to accurately assess how many people are victims of sex trafficking worldwide" and they don't provide any estimates.
Thanks for your suggestions, I will post comments in, and sign my comments on talk pages.


Looking through World Vision's historical publications on the wayback machine however I found this which states that there were 250,000 sex tourists total and that that number includes child sex tourism. The wording of the paragraph is quite confusing and it seems believable that someone could have misinterpreted what the number meant when citing and that that misinterpretation eventually ended up on Misplaced Pages.
Please, include the info about Batam as a CHILD PROSTITUTION DESTINATION, that is not how the article reads now.


That World Vision document also claims that the actual source is from a childwise document retrieved in 2009 but the same url in 2010 contains no reference to the 250,000 number at all: https://web.archive.org/web/20100707032103/http://www.childwise.net/downloads/Child_Wise_Tourism_Information_S.pdf
:I've changed it to:
::] has been criticised for having no such law, in spite of being adjacent to the sex tourism destination of ] in ], which has many underage sex workers, some of whom have been tricked or forced into prostitution, according to media reports.


Given that the current citation is dead, reputable organizations no longer cite this number, and that at least one citation chain ended up in what I can only assume is a misinterpretation I think it would be best to remove the statement that "250,000 travelling internationally to engage in sex tourism with children and youth alone" entirely as unsubstantiated. ] (]) 23:52, 26 May 2024 (UTC)
:It might be getting off the track a bit, although I believe the information is relevant.


== Several mistakes ==
I have no idea what you are reffering to about my IP address, here is my contrib list:
http://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Special:Contributions&target=69.107.52.142


The sentence "Sexual activities that involve minors are universally non-consensual and illegal" is completely wrong, the vast majority of countries have an age of consent below 18, it would be more correct to talk about the prostitution of minors since that is indeed universally illegal. ] (]) 15:01, 16 October 2024 (UTC)
Please let me know what you are refferencing.

:In that case I'll accept that I made an error. (I had looked at the IP address of the user who removed the line, which was 202.156.6.54, and viewed some of the edits at random... but I can't find them now, so I may have clicked the wrong thing. In any case you're obviously being reasonable about this question.) --] 03:28, 28 November 2005 (UTC)

btw, I have made an account and you'll see me around as Devalover
peace
] 07:02, 27 November 2005 (UTC)

:Great. Can't find your user page though. When you sign, use four tildes (the wavy symbol) to sign, then it links to your user page. Or just use the button above the edit box, second from the right. --] 03:29, 28 November 2005 (UTC)


--
CHANNELNEWSASIA REPORTS: SINGAPORE TO ENACT CHILD SEX TOURISM LAW
Time is GMT + 8 hours
Posted: 02 March 2006 1711 hrs

Government amending laws to deter child sex tourism
By S. Ramesh, Channel NewsAsia

SINGAPORE : The government is coming down hard on Singaporeans who
engage in sex with minors, even abroad.

It is amending its laws to extend extra-territorial jurisdiction over
its nationals who sexually exploit minors overseas.

Speaking in Parliament on Thursday, Senior Minister of State for Law
and Home Affairs Ho Peng Kee says the government is also making it an
offence to purchase sexual services from anyone who is under 18.

He says child sex tourists take advantage of the inability or the
unwillingness of the host country to prosecute them.

Back in Singapore, prosecution is also constrained as most countries
do not extend extra-territorial jurisdiction for sexual offences.

Professor Ho says: "Presently, Singaporeans who have sex with minors
in other countries cannot be prosecuted in Singapore as our courts do
not have jurisdiction over them.

"Members have urged the government to stop our nationals from preying
on minors from other counties by denying them a safe haven through
enacting legislation of extra-territorial effect. We have taken note
of these views and have factored them in our review."

The Home Affairs Ministry says despite the constraints and
difficulties in dealing with child sex cases overseas, Singapore
recognises that having sex with minors anywhere is deplorable.

So the government has decided to take firm action and amend the laws
to extend extra-territorial jurisdiction over Singapore nationals who
sexually exploit minors overseas.

The changes will be introduced once the on-going review of the Penal
Code is completed.

The Home Affairs Ministry is also tightening measures to protect young
persons from providing sexual services.

Professor Ho says: "Being more easily influenced, their consent can be
impaired. As such, they are more vulnerable to being trafficked,
controlled and exploited by pimps and traffickers who prey on them and
live off their earnings."

He says although there is no evidence to suggest that there are
significant numbers of 16- and 17-year olds engaging in prostitution,
the government feels there should be a higher age protection for
commercial sexual activities.

So, it has decided to make it an offence for anyone to purchase sexual
services from a person who is under 18. - CNA/de

==sex worker "work ethics?"==

Does this sentence make sense to anyone as a motive for sex tourism:
preferring the "work ethics" of foreign prostitutes to those of one's own country

] 07:12, 27 November 2005 (UTC)

:Yes. Work ethic is a polite way of saying "they love you long time". - ]] <sup>]</sup> 16:26, 27 November 2005 (UTC)

:) ahhhhh. thanks ] 15:58, 17 December 2005 (UTC)


==child prostitution==

Personally, I would like to see this section gone, or merged with ]... the article is about legal sex tourism... any thoughts?] 15:58, 17 December 2005 (UTC)

:The article is about sex tourism, legal or not.--] 23:04, 17 December 2005 (UTC)

:I think Devalover's point was there are TOO MANY references in the article as a whole about child prostitution. It gives the article a "bias". In this small article there is at least SIX references to "child prostitution" or pedophilia. "Child prostitution" should be a different article in and of itself with ONE link to and from this one. Unfortunately there are pedophiles in every sector of society. There isn't a single mention in ] or ] or even in ] (which I find amusing). Hmmm... but there are SIX references in this article along with 50% of the links. Actually, now that I have poked around a bit I've found ], probably most of that stuff can go there. I'll check out both this article and that one and see what can be put there. ] 08:07, 7 March 2006 (UTC)


: I've moved some of this stuff to it's own section "Crime and controversy", also cleaned up the section about sex tourism in the ] article (it was WAY biased). Anyhow.... boy this article is hard to keep NPOV! ;) ] 11:34, 7 March 2006 (UTC)

==Vandals==
Vandals in this page (Justin Hay?)


Ummm, yep!

Feel free to edit out any vandalisms you find. Also, you can sign your comments by typing 4 "~"'s ] 17:27, 18 January 2006 (UTC)

== Muslim countries?!? ==
Quote from the article:
:Occasionally, sex tourists go to conservative countries for the challenge of tricking women there into having sex with them. A notable case is ] who traveled to ] countries where he persuaded women to do degrading things by promising to marry and bring them to ]. He then posted photos online to boast of his conquests, but when his explicit materials were circulated back to ] many of the women were arrested, had their lives ruined, committed suicide or simply disappeared. "

This is the ONLY case of this sort of thing I've heard of. Does this need to be in "Destinations" ?? ] 11:12, 7 March 2006 (UTC)


:Nevermind, moved and reformatted to "Crime and controversy" section. ] 11:35, 7 March 2006 (UTC)


Nice with the crime and controversy sections Oarias, For this and the child prostitution sections.] 05:04, 6 August 2006 (UTC)

== Legal issues in the United States ==

Federal law prohibits American citizens to engage in international travel with the purpose of having sex with a person under the age of 17, even if the age of consent in the target country is below 18. Prosecutions under this law are very rare.

I changed this to

"Federal law prohibits American citizens to engage in international travel with the purpose of having sex with a person under the age of 18, even if the age of consent in the target country is below 18. Prosecutions under this law are very rare."

I believe the 17 number is incorrect. Please see the Protect Act of 2003.

http://en.wikipedia.org/PROTECT_Act_of_2003


== POV? ==
"In 2005 it was reported that Philippe Servaty, a newspaper columnist for Le Soir, traveled to Muslim countries where he persuaded women to do '''degrading''' things by promising to marry and bring them to Belgium. He then posted photos online to boast of his conquests, but when his explicit materials were circulated back to Morocco many of the women were arrested, had their lives ruined, committed suicide or simply disappeared."

Isn't that bolded word a hint of POV?

== Prostitution? ==

"Women sometimes give clothes, meals, cash and gifts to their holiday boyfriends, but not all (especially in Southern Europe) expect compensation."
I dont see how a man (or a woman for that matter) who is having sex with a tourist and does not expect compensation is considered a prostitute???

==Definition of sex tourism==

I just wrote a definition for "sex tourism" in the opening section of this article which expanded upon the one we had in order to provide a more general discription. The previous definition seemed to only be concerned with prostitution and sexual abuse of child, which is not conclusive of the phenomenon. Although sex tourism is most often associated with prostitution, this is not present in every case.

Let me mention that I have a master's degree in clinical psychology from California State University, and that I have studied cultural anthropology at the University of Southern California as a minor of my undergraduate degree. I have also traveled extensively to many of the better known sex tourism destinations to observe and participate in these customs and rituals.

I believe this is a good definition for sex tourism. If you have anything to add to this definition please say it here.<br>
Daniel E. Knodel, M.A. 22:47, 30 October 2006 (UTC)

:The term ''sex tourism'' is coined with the specific meaning of "''tourism for the purpose of having sex''" &mdash; participation in the ''sex trade'' in other words &mdash; and the subject is usually linked to prostitution. Besides being a specific subject interesting in itself, this is important in the study of trade and economics on a regional and international scale, and is also in many cases a human rights issue.
:The term generally does not include ''all'' tourism concerned with the subject of sex (including in your examples observation and museum visits), as your "generic" definition leans. By introducing this vague definition, you draw attention away from the abovementioned concerns, and generally muddy the waters. I hope this is inadvertent.

:As an academic, you probably have a grip on peer-reviewed sociological journals. If possible, please provide a link that demonstrates this term is widely accepted to mean ''all'' tourism concerned with the subject of sex. Otherwise, please revert your edits &mdash; they are off-topic, and water down the article without providing useful information. &mdash; ] 01:34, 31 October 2006 (UTC)

I'd have to disagree with that, as there are also no citations that back it being defined as narrowly as you suggest, I'm not certain as to why it would be limited in such a way. Of course, references for either view would be welcome. My understanding was also the broader definition of tourism related to sex, not specifically for "intercourse". My guess is that people would not want the narrower definition as that would scare away tourists. ] 02:33, 31 October 2006 (UTC)

:Again I'm not an academic, so I won't have access to the kind of quality information Mr. Knodel has, but here are a couple easy ones.

:* The as "trips organized from within the tourism sector, or from outside this sector but using its structures and networks, with the primary purpose of effecting a commercial sexual relationship by the tourist with residents at the destination"
:* Google , . Heck. Just . Try it .

:I see no mention of retirees visiting sex museums, and you'd have to dig pretty hard to find swingers' vacation resorts (which I imagine don't want to be associated with the term "sex tourism"). Pretty consistently the term is used to mean the practice of travelling to countries with few or poorly enforced sex laws and a large population of economicly distressed people for the purpose of engaging in sexual activities.

:Please revert your definition.

:Also, please stop inserting the commercial spam link to Sly Traveler Sex Guide. Misplaced Pages is not here to optimize your search engine ratings. &mdash; ] 05:45, 31 October 2006 (UTC)

-- Thank you both for responding. In response to the first reply, can you tell us where the term sex tourism is coined as tourism for the purpose of having sex, and why we should accept this instead? Your argument that tourism exclusively for participating in sex is necessary for studying the economic influence may not be acceptable. Observational sex tourism does provide economic income for sex tourism destinations as well. For example Casa Rosso in Amsterdam or the Park Hotel in Costa Rica generate substantial revenue through tourism provided by live sex shows. Also there are museums in Nevada that older tourists travel to without participating in sexual intercourse. The hot springs of Bebbu in Japan are another example of this. There are websites on all these places that you can use as a reference, including some articles in Misplaced Pages itself. I'm unfamiliar with sociological journals or a particular social scientist to refer you to on “sex tourism”, because it is a new topic.

There is also the fact that sex tourism need not involve prostitution. There are swingers clubs and orgy events in Amsterdam and Buenos Ares that are very good examples of how people travel internationally to have sex without prostitution.

As far as human rights, you might want to pursue that under other topics such as child sex tourism, illegal prostitution, or sexual abuse. Human rights are also at sake when people are forced to follow beliefs that their own culture does not support. I mentioned this by including cultural relativism as an important issue within the subject of sex tourism. The definition that I provided leaves plenty of room for the exploitative dangers of sex tourism as well.

If you want to add some kind of emphases on how prostitution is even more important in our definition than we already have, I suppose you can do so. But we already stated that "a sex tourist is usually defined as an adult who travels in order to have legal consensual sexual relations with another adult often for the exchange of money or presents."

Also, please identify yourself in your replies.<br>
Daniel E. Knodel, M.A. 02:28, 31 October 2006 (UTC)

:You are misquoting me here.
:<blockquote>"Your argument that tourism exclusively for participating in sex ''is necessary for studying the economic influence''"</blockquote>
:That is not what I said. I could restate it, or you could re-read it.

:My argument is that "Sex tourism" is defined accurately and succinctly in the first paragraph of , and furthermore that is padded with sugar-coated pro- sex industry POV.

:Please revert your definition. &mdash; ] 05:45, 31 October 2006 (UTC)

-- Edgarde, as I said, "sex tourism" has acquired a derogatory connotation that is unjustified. Let's take Amsterdam as an example. Most of the people who go there to see the sexual attractions do not participate in sex with prostitutes. I don't know what kind of travel experiences you have had, but this true for almost all sex tourism destinations. I will not deny that the main purpose of sex tourism is most often to have sex with prostitutes. But that is not all there is to it. The definition you have is too limited and does not accord with the complexity of the actual phenomenon. By the way, I consider the link that I added, :* http://slyguide.com Sly Traveler to be a good site on the subject of sex tourism, which does not promote the negative meaning you defend. If you have a certain prospective that you feel is important, go ahead and write about it, or add your own link. There are a lot interesting sexual customs out there that most people don’t know about. And the majority of them aren’t as bad as you make them out to be. What would you like to see changed? I think you are asking too much to change everything completely just for you. I, at least, think it is necessary to say something about how not all sex tourists are child molesters and can have an appreciation for the diversity of human sexually found throughout different cultures, which may or may not involve prostitution. Furthermore, I still strongly believe that sex tourism can include observation as well as participation.<br>

What is most important to you in defining "sex tourism"? Can you give us an example of what you feel must be included. Edgarde, I can tell you are a respectable person, and I would like to come to some sort of mutual understanding so we can stop arguing, and give other people a chance to contribute.<br>
Daniel E. Knodel, M.A. 09:01, 31 October 2006 (UTC)

:I've already stated what I think is "important" and "must be included". My main issue is with your definition, which is disingenuous nonsense:
:<blockquote>''Sex tourism is a general term that entails traveling to foreign countries either to observe or participate in sexual customs other than one's own.''</blockquote>
:... in other words, sex tourism is simply ''any'' tourism that involves sex. This is like defining "stoplight" as "''a lamp that people stop in front of perhaps as an agreed meeting location''", or "waterboarding" as "''use of aquadynamicly shaped pieces of lumber or similar material for surfing''". Both definitions are make literal sense, but that's not what those terms mean. The suggestion that "sex tourism" has "acquired a bad name" is industry ], as was the removal of ]. (By the way, thank you for restoring that.)

:Atomaton asked "Let's have references for either view". I gave a definition with a reference, plus a Google trail that suggests that definition is in wide use in academic and general writing at least on the web. Your rebuttal is that sex tourism "has acquired a derogatory connotation that is unjustified". As you are an educated person with experience in the subject, it's hard to continue giving you the benefit of the doubt here, especially considering your insistence on linking a commercial site, and gratuitously hotlinking it from this page.

:Please revert your definition. Also, please remove your spam links from the article, including this Discussion page. &mdash; ] 16:06, 31 October 2006 (UTC)

-- Edgarde, I'm sorry that we could not come to an agreement. My delimitation is not circler as you have suggested. I think you need to read it closer. The basic idea is that people may travel to have sex, but they may also travel to observe sexual customs. Also participation or observation of sexual customs and ritual may or may not involve prostitution. This is much more specific than your definition that "sex tourism" is "tourism for the purpose of having sex." Is this not much more circler than what I have suggest? Your definition ignores the fact that most sex tourists travel to observe sexual customs and rituals as well as participate in them.

I have presented strong agreements with empirical examples where you have only offered judgments and allegations in most cases. Also I don't appreciate your insults, such as my ideas are "nonsense", "watered down", and "spam". This kind of subjective speak is not productive. Throughout this discussion with you, I have demonstrated knowledge on the subject of sex tourism. Thank you for telling us about your Google searches, but anyone could do that. It would be more helpful if you laid out some points that you want to be included on the sex tourism page based on your Google searches at least. I have traveled the world, and my observations are grounded on my education of cultural anthropology and clinical psychology. I think what I have said is relevant to defining sex tourism.

The link to Sly Traveler should stay. There are other links on this page that are less relevant, such as those on "child sex tourism", which already have links in the page content, and which there is another page on Misplaced Pages where it would be better placed. Also there are comparable links to Sly Traveler in the "prostitution" Misplaced Pages page that offer information from similar prospectives, which might be considered commercial. I don't think it will help to have a page where all links basically share the same position on the subject. Sly Traveler offers a relevant prospective that has not been previously introduced. It also offers resources for sex tourists with sex tourism destination information that is not included on the Misplaced Pages sex tourism page.

I'm going to change the last paragraph to try to accommodate you. It's hard to do this though, because you haven't really stated what you feel is most important. You mentioned human rights. I think you are trying to say that sex tourism can be exploitative for sex workers in some cases. I wish you would just tell us what you think needs to be said so we can make progress toward a mutually agreeable definition.

If anyone has any other thoughts on this discussion and the definition of sex tourism please contribute.<br>
Daniel E. Knodel, M.A. 23:53, 31 October 2006 (UTC)

===Request for Comment===
This is a controversy about how '''Sex tourism''' is defined. 22:13, 31 October 2006 (UTC)

====Statements by editors previously involved in dispute====

* '''Sex tourism''' has a specific meaning of "''tourism for the purpose of having sex''", particularly for participation in the 'sex trade'. I object to a redefinition as tourism "''to observe or participate in sexual customs other than one's own''" because
:# that is not the commonly used meaning, and,
:# using that redefinition obscures many of the economic, cultural, legal and political implications that the term carries.
:Items I object to are removed in , but I would also encourage those commenting to start by reading the ''Definition of sex tourism'' discussion ]. &mdash; ] 22:13, 31 October 2006 (UTC)

* '''Sex tourism''' The term Sex Tourism has acquired a derogatory connotation that does not accord with the complexity of the phenomenon that I have experienced throughout my observations of various sex tourism destinations. A sex tourist may travel to observe as well as participate in sexual customs and rituals of foreign cultures, which may or may not involve prostitution. It is unnecessary to "combat" sex tourism, because it is often done legally and is acceptable under the terms of the culture of the host country. The definition I propose is meant to reconcile the following:
:#Sex tourism need not be associated with ethnocentric constructs such as "the sex trade" or any other term that does not have respect for cultural relativism.
:#There is no gold standard or authority on sex tourism and it should only be definited under reasons provided by the editors.<br>
: &mdash; Daniel E. Knodel, M.A. 00:39, 1 November 2006 (UTC)

====Comments====
#] 22:47, 31 October 2006 (UTC) I view this as an NPOV issue. There is no central authority for correct definitin of the term. That means that any editor can give their perceptions/opinions of one or more known usages. Those perceptions/opinions need to be backed by some reliable reference. For instance, if the term is used in United Nations documents, or a news or magazine article discussing the term. To remain NPOV, we should offer fair balance and allow the definitions that are offered and cited. An important factor here is that this article is not a vehicle for special interests, or a campaign on an issue (for instance an anti-abortion organization or activist trying to control an article to make their case.) This is referenced in ]. There is ample room here to say "Sex tourism is a term often used to mean "X" by the United Nations and other NGO's in trying to combat "Y". Also, the term is seen to be more broadly defined to mean "Z" by the tourism industry and other organizations."
#] 15:11, 1 November 2006 (UTC) First of all, I must admit that this is the first time I was even made aware that there's controversy about what the term "sex tourism" means. As far as I'm concerned, "tourism for purposes of having sex" is much closer to the meaning in common usage (I would add a caveat pointing out that travelling for the purpose of having sex with a person you already know, and incidentally doing touristy things while there, would hardly qualify as "sex tourism" &mdash; the connotation very clearly is that you don't know the people, don't take the time to build a romantic relationship or anything, and quite likely end up paying for the sex).
:Second, and I believe this is the more important point, articles should be about concepts, not about English phrases. Intermingling the common definition of sex tourism, which is widely regarded as abusive, with another definition of the same term that means something generally considered harmless, would make for an extremely bad article: Abusive sex tourism is a significant problem, it regularly makes the news, it creates complicated legal situations when prosecuted, it's connected to the HIV pandemic, it's something we need an article about. "Harmless" sex tourism is something that would strike me a stub material, and very probably a fringe phenomenon.
:In summary, the redefinition strikes me as misguided, and if I had to guess at the intention, I would think it is a deliberate attempt to widen the definition of a term to include hypothetical harmless activity, possibly in order to put a positive spin on the whole issue. It appears to me analogous to redefining "gun crime" to include the ''theft'' of guns, even though that's clearly and overwhelmingly not the sense in which the term is used.

:: -- I never once used the word "harmless". HIV in a legally regulated program of prostitution is in many cases lower than in an illegal context. Also crime, including rapes and child molestations are lower in countries that have legal prostitution than those that don't (See the ] page). Most sex tourism destinations have legal prostitution, and the sexual customs are usually acceptable under the terms of the host country. I never definited sex tourism as having sex with some you already know under a romantic relationship. There are forms of sexual participation in rituals with people who don't know each other, which are not abusive and are consensual, such as orgies, swingers clubs, and FFK's. There are live sex shows, tours of red light districts, and sex museums that are based on observational customs that don't include participation as well. Whether this is a "positive spin" or not is beside the point. These are empirical components of sex tourism that were not accounted for the previous definition. Also, the introduction of 1) observational customs and 2) customs of participation that do not include prostitution, does not contradict the previous definition of 3) customs that include participating in prostitution, which is still present in our description of sex tourism.<br>
::Daniel E. Knodel, M.A. 21:19, 1 November 2006 (UTC)

::: You're missing the point a ''lot''. Can you please re-read the comment to which you're replying? &mdash; ] 07:05, 2 November 2006 (UTC)
:::: I was misquoted in RandomP's comment. If you have a point that you think I've missed you need to specify it. Your definition does not account for other forms of sex tourism besides illegal prostitution. There are many empirical examples that sex tourism has other forms than that (i.e. observational, participation without prostitution, and legal prostitution). There is no authority on sex tourism, and the term may even be considered a colloquialism. We are going to need to agree upon a definition that includes multiple prospectives (See ). So it may behoove you to start stating some points that you want to see included in the definition, instead of insisting on reverting the whole thing. Atom's comment was much more relevant than RandomP's, in that it at least showed some understanding of the issues involved in the dispute, instead of misquoting, and that it suggested applicable solutions for dispute resolution. <br>
::::Daniel E. Knodel, M.A. 02:40, 3 November 2006 (UTC)

:::::Uhm, excuse me? How did I misquote you?
:::::The one appearance of the word "harmless" in quotes has those merely to point out that it was created as an ad-hoc antonym to "abusive", and I think that should have been clear to most readers.
:::::If it is indeed the case that "sex tourism" is an ambiguous term, then I agree we need to apply NPOV &mdash; and change the title of this article, as well as the term used in it. However, you appear to have made more of a content decision than a terminology decision, and much of the article now appears devoted to defending "sex tourism", by the expanded definition.
:::::Also remember to ] &mdash; not only is it policy, it also makes dispute resolution much more efficient.
:::::] 03:12, 3 November 2006 (UTC)
# "Sex tourism is tourism for the purpose of having sex" has multiple sources. As far as I can tell, "to observe or participate in sexual customs other than one's own" has none, making it at present a violation of the ] core content policy. Furthermore, the statements by that definition's proponent strongly suggest to me that it is a ] violation as well. Accordingly, I believe that 1) "to observe or participate in sexual customs other than one's own" has no place in the article, and ] should be retained, and 2) it is "to observe or participate in sexual customs other than one's own", ''not'' "for the purpose of having sex" that violates the ] policy, since including a point-of-view that is unverifable or original research ''by definition'' grants it undue weight (namely, granting it any weight). ] 04:44, 3 November 2006 (UTC)

<br>
-- What are the sources you are referring to for "Sex tourism is tourism for the purpose of having sex"? If it must be stated verbatim, show us where it is directly referred to. Participation in prostitution is already including the current definition. <br>

Here are some websites on observational sex tourism:
#
#
#

Here are some websites on sex tourism that include participation without prostitution:
#
#

These are just the some of the sex tourism sites in Amsterdam that do not include participation in prostitution but are still sex tourism attractions. There are places like these at other sex tourism destinations as well, but most of them do not have websites, because they are not as open about their sexual customs as Amsterdam is. You can find more outside references online or you can travel to the destinations yourself. My definition is not original research alone. I don't know if you can count participant-observation as "research". Use these above mentioned Amsterdam examples as references if necessary.
There is no gold standard or authority on the subject of sex tourism, and it is important that we take a neutral point of view that accounts for its various forms.
<br>
Daniel E. Knodel, M.A. 06:04, 3 November 2006 (UTC)

===Notice of revision===
In order to adopt a ] including some of the concerns that Edgarde touched on during our discussion, I've made a revision from the original definition that Edgarde had fault with to a new definition .

I've replaced the following statement:<br>
"Sex tourism is just like any other form of tourism that focuses on a certain aspect of a foreign culture. Sex tourists are people who travel for recreation in their enjoyment of experiencing the rich diversity of sexual customs, rituals, and manifestation throughout the world."

With this statement:<br>
"Some advocacy groups who oppose sex tourism exist to prevent the adverse conditions of illegal prostitution practiced in some countries, which can result in exploitation of sex workers and sexual abuse. Many sex tourism destinations are often countries with poor economies. Some proponents feel that human rights have been violated when prostitution provides extra income under the hardships of poverty."

By doing so, I've tried to make the definition more objective and avoid soapbox reporting. I think this definition fairly accounts for various forms of sex tourism found at the better known sex tourism destinations while informing the reader about philosophies concerning the phonomenon.
The new definition introduces 1) observational customs and 2) customs of participation that do not include prostitution, while not contradicting Edgarde's previous definition of 3) customs that include participating in prostitution (i.e. ''Sex tourism is tourism, partially or fully for the purpose of having sex. Sex tourism is legal in any country in the world where prostitution is also legal. A sex tourist is usually defined as an adult who travels in order to have legal consensual sexual relations with another adult often for the exchange of money or presents''), which is still present in our description of sex tourism. <br>
Daniel E. Knodel, M.A. 04:33, 3 November 2006 (UTC)

: '''Inadequate'''. You are not adopting a NPOV. You are not addressing the problems that are clearly (and repeatedly) defined above. ''The Literate Engineer'' proposes a satisfactory solution. Please revert your definition entirely. And please remove your all your (gratuitously hotlinked) spam URLs.

: Also, discussion about this topic belongs on the Discussion page for this topic &mdash; ''this'' page. Please do not use ] for this purpose. This discussion involves people other than you and me.

: Note to whomever cares: while Mr. Knodel uses an unlinked text signature, he logs in from two accounts:
:: * ] <small>(] • ])</small>
:: * ] <small>(] • ])</small>.
: This info is intended as a convenience, and not as an accusation of sockpuppetry. &mdash; ] <small>(] • ])</small> 06:34, 3 November 2006 (UTC)

::-- Edgarde, you need to give me a break. I'm new at Misplaced Pages. Your IP is displayed instead of your signature if you forget to log-in before you post a message. I have done nothing wrong. I have tried very hard to please you. I can't do anything more, Im sorry. The '''Misplaced Pages is Not is a Soapbox''' article and the ] article will explain the merit of my contributions, including my expansion of the dinifition to Sex tourism and my link to Sly Traveler.
:::*In response your acquisition that Sly Travel is a spam website, please see <br>
::::"External links to commercial organizations are acceptable if they can serve to identify major corporations associated with a topic."

:::*In response to your request to revert ] completely, please see ]<br>
::::"None of the views should be given undue weight or asserted as being the truth, and all significant published points of view are to be presented, not just the most popular one. It should also not be asserted that the most popular view or some sort of intermediate view among the different views is the correct one."
::Daniel E. Knodel, M.A. 08:14, 3 November 2006 (UTC)

::: We can help you. If you want a "break", you can get off the hook easily by following simple instructions. Click <strike>this link</strike><sup>obsolete</sup>, then click "Save Page" (without making any changes). We'll take care of the rest. &mdash; ] 08:42, 3 November 2006 (UTC)

:::: Thank you for helping. The current defintion is acceptable to me. However, the link to was missing. As an editor, I'm entitled to introduce links that are important external sources of information on the topic. Sly Traveler provides a prospective on sex tourism that was not previously accounted for. The child sex tourism links seem less relevant, since our difinition seperates it from the phenomon we describe, and there is a seperate Misplaced Pages page for Child Sex Tourism. Still I have respected the views of other editors and not objected to including these links. Our current definition includes sex shows, sex museums, and red light districts. Sly Traveler provides information on these sex tourism attractions all over the world, which are discribed in greater depth than our Sex Tourism article.<br>
:::: Daniel E. Knodel, M.A. 21:53, 3 November 2006 (UTC)

===Dispute resolution===

The current state of our Sex Tourism article is a acceptable to me. I wish to withdraw from the dispute. Engarde, would you please remove our request for comment link? Shall we delete our discussion at this point? Thank you, Addhoc for helping. Your definition is what I wanted to see included, and I think it is even more objective. I appreciate you for respecting my contributions. You have made my first editing experience on Misplaced Pages a pleasant one.<br>
Daniel E. Knodel, M.A. 22:37, 3 November 2006 (UTC)

: I still have issues (see below). When this nonsense is over, the correct procedure would be to archive the discussion. Deleting comment is not a good practice. &mdash; ] 23:04, 3 November 2006 (UTC)

===Much-needed cleanup===
This new writeup is much nicer. I'm not really in love the the compromise definition, particularly...
<blockquote>''Sex tourism can be used to describe sexual entertainment activities, for example sex tourists may travel to observe live sex shows, sex museums, or tours of red light districts.''</blockquote>
...which is an ugly compromise, but overall we're ''most'' of the way to the old definition, so I can live with it. Further motion away from the redefinition will be someone else's issue to take up.

: '''EDIT 00:52, 4 November 2006 (UTC):''' Sorry. Couldn't live with it. I did my best to stomach that sentence, but it was a no-man's land of lies and spin. This can go to your ]. If you can find ] for exactly who uses the term with that meaning, please substitute the first part with something like "Sex tourism promoters sometimes use the term to ...", but it can't let it stand.

Specifying specific acts in the first sentence is distracting, potentially confusing, and too much like advertising:
<blockquote>''Sex tourism is traveling for sexual intercourse with prostitutes or to engage in sexual practices such as orgies, FKK's, or swingers clubs.''</blockquote>
... this should end more like "''... or go engage in sexual practices not easily available in one's home locale.''" The particular practices listed are too specific and not essential to this description. They're also more in the "travel guide" spirit the article had before Addhoc's revisions. I made this change.

I would take issue with any motion to:
* re-introduce the ''tourists guide'' style (term taken from another editor -- I used the term "Sex industry POV" and I stand by it)
* remove references to Child Sex Tourism (which are not as of excessive) because while it is not the only form of sex tourism (and this distinction is made in the article), it is a distinct attraction (moreso, I would wager, than "orgies") (not that I personally have anything against orgies; I just don't see a need to travel very far to participate in one; ]).
* <strike>moving or changing the "can be used to describe" example above (which I'll call the ''third sentence'') to obscure, preceed, or override the prior definition (which I'll call the ''the first two sentences''); or, where the first two sentences are modified in the direction of the third. The ''third sentence'' is the "redefinition', and it is one of the two core points of my initial objection. I'm leaving it at your insistence. (This is the compromise I am willing to accept. Yes it is ugly, and the rest of Misplaced Pages is still able to take issue with it.)</strike><sup>obsolete</sup>
:* '''EDIT 01:02, 4 November 2006 (UTC):'''I've changed as little as I could in the first section.
* restoring the Sly Traveler link, which is ]. (This was the other core point of my initial objection.) It is not an important external source of information, any more that a travel agent's page on sex tourism might be. Its content is not unique or valuable (locale info one can get from the ] notwithstanding), and it exists primarily to advertise or sell services. This should be apparent to most as a ] link. If you want to take this point to arbitration, that's fine.

This isn't finished. But style-wise the article is much cleaned up. ] did some very good work. ''Admirable'' work. &mdash; ] 23:02, 3 November 2006 (UTC)

: Edgarde, Although the destination coverage is organized in much the same way, does indeed contain information on the subject of sex tourism that is not present in the CIA World Fact Book. The site does not sell travel services, and it should not be compared as such. Its content is unique and you will not find external sources that provide its qauntity (qaultiy is subjective) of information related to sex tourism destinations, and the sites found among them, elsewhere. In response to your acquisition that Sly Travel is a spam website, please see <br>
::'''"External links to commercial organizations are acceptable if they can serve to identify major corporations associated with a topic."'''
:Sly Traveler is a site that I've included to provide a prospective that our Sex Tourism page did not have, and it is essential to taking a neutral point of view while respecting me as an editor. Comparible links to Sly Traveler that currently exist on Misplaced Pages are the and in the ] page.

:Addhoc's definition is well written and has respect for the views of all editors. Please try to understand that a defintion written from a neutral point of view will need to involve some compromise, and cannot be worded exactly as one editor wants. His definition is more objective than your revision, and does not include the superfulous content you introduced (i.e. "not easily available in one's home country or region"). People living in a sex tourism destitation might engage in activities nearby that are easily accessible, such as with the FKK's of Frankfurt.

:Engarde seems to be begging the question in order to escalate the dispute for his own amusement. His comments to continue the dispute are subjective (i.e. ''I would wager, than "orgies" ... not that I personally have anything against orgies; I just don't see a need to travel very far to participate in one''), and presume that he has some kind of authority over the say of other editors (''i.e. This isn't finished. But style-wise the article is much cleaned up'').

:Engarde, please don't remove my link to Sly Traveler again or add to the defintion. Changes at this point will further postpone dispute resolution and make it harder for us to form a consensus. Addhoc has acted as a good mediator for us, and you should as least respect his edits, if you can't respect mine. If Addhoc approves of a point you want to see introduced, please let him make the edit.

:I wish to resolve the dispute with AdHoc's intervention. I'm going to revert the article to this point now.
:Daniel E. Knodel, M.A. 02:29, 4 November 2006 (UTC)

:: I've not heard from ], so he is not mediating. He did a nice rewrite. It's not the last word. My objections stand. I attached references to the version you reverted, and the version to which you reverted is basicly a concise version of ], so that version is against Misplaced Pages policy. Please don't remove citations from this article. And please don't add further POV edits.

:: Your contributions to this article will ] be edited. Reverting back to the more POV version is not the best reaction. It's a work in progress. &mdash; ] 05:22, 4 November 2006 (UTC)

::: What about your comment that Addhoc's definition would be acceptable if we made changes based on your sex life, stating orgies are accessible for most people in their hometown? That sounds like orginal research, Edgarde... Now your backtracking once you can't have your way. I've provided links for sex tourism attractions in Amsterdam that include observational sex tourism and participation without prostitution as an example of external sources. While we are on the subjuct of the link I introduced, there are many more sex tourism sites found in the major sex tourism destinitations all over the world, which are covered on

:::Addhoc's definition is well written and respects the views of all editors. While it contains some degree of compromise from orginal posts, the basic ideas of various points of view are contained in Addhoc's difinition. It is the most objective definition on the subject of Sex Tourism that has been presented so far.

:::I'm going to revert to Addhoc's definition. Please respect the views of other editors.<br>
:::Daniel E. Knodel, M.A. 07:32, 4 November 2006 (UTC)

:::: There is no moratorium, and in all this time never has been. I went from 2006-10-30T20:48:52 to 2006-11-03T18:02:05 without reverting your spam link or your POV edits advocating for sex tourism. This was done entirely out of respect for your concerns. During this interval about 30kB of verbiage has been added to this Talk page where you have ], declared resolutions and moratoria, purported insubstantial changes to be cooperation, acted put-upon and persecuted, misrepresented other editors comments, and ignored the following feedback from myself and 2 other editors:
::::* Your edits are highly ]
::::* Your edits are ]
::::* Your redefinition (my term, which at least one other editor adopted) is ''entirely'' novel
:::: And you've been completely impervious to this information.

:::: There's a Russian proverb, old:
:::: ''<blockquote>When twelve men say you are drunk, perhaps you should sit down.</blockquote>''

:::: I've not looked into the possible-spam links you report being on ]. The presence of spam (if it is so) on ] does not justify a spam link here (or anywhere).

:::: If ] cares to comment, I'll be happy to read it. But ] has not commented in this discussion or directly to me, so ] is not at this time "mediating". I won't sit and wait while you revert to a page that retains your Spam link and POV edits.

:::: I encourage you to persue arbitration on this. However, I gave you 3½ days to make your case (and continue editing), and your bottom line is really clear by now. Your POV edits and spam cannot stay. I'm really sorry this troubles you so much.

:::: I'll probably have a go at editing this article. Without making a full-time job of this, my intention would be to, over time, add references and remove POV (if any remains). With one obvious exception, I'm not expecting a lot of editors to have problems with my edits, but I'll certainly respect other editors.

:::: And if I don't do it, somebody else will. This dispute is not between you and me.

:::: Haven't gotten below the TOC yet, but I've pretty much done the first 3 paragraphs. It's not a final draft and I may refine them later &mdash; obviously, there are no final drafts on Misplaced Pages. &mdash; ] 09:40, 4 November 2006 (UTC)

::::: Edgarde, you are right, there are no final drafts. What do you think of Addhoc's new definition? Inclusion of the link to Sly Traveler and Addhac's definition would end my involvement in the dispute.<br>
:::::Daniel E. Knodel, M.A. 11:03, 4 November 2006 (UTC)

Hi, thanks for your comments. Regarding the definition, could I suggest that we should base our arguments on citations. ] 12:16, 4 November 2006 (UTC)

:::::: Needs much more work. Get a citation on that 2nd paragraph or it cannot stay. The spam link needs to come out. I'll comment on the rest when time permits. &mdash; ] 16:01, 4 November 2006 (UTC)

Fully agree the article requires further editing. Regarding the second paragraph, should we give another 24 hours and then remove? ] 16:11, 4 November 2006 (UTC)

: I wasn't in that much of a hurry. Can we give Mr. Knodel (or whomever) the rest of the weekend to page through some scholarly journals? Someone degreed in clinical psychology and cultural anthropology shouldn't have much trouble citing sources. And if we leave the article <nowiki>{{fact}}</nowiki>-tagged an extra day or two, another editor might look into it.

: I wanted to tighten up the 3rd paragraph because it repeats information from further down &mdash; distinguish child/non-child, wikilink child, and move on without a load of apologia. If I deleted any non-redundant info in my (this would have been inadvertent), it might be better restored under ''Criminality and Controversy'', where it can be detailed. Without referring to the style manual just now, I feel like the above-TOC text should be very concise.

: Also, same paragraph, the "some advocacy groups" language seems pretty ]. I intended the U.N. references to replace that for the time being, and maybe append other groups as discovered. I reckon no one's going to think the U.N. is acting alone.

: Gotta run. More later. Thank again for your help. Much appreciation your way. &mdash; ] 17:13, 4 November 2006 (UTC)

You both have a lot of good points. And who I'm to argue with the U.N. But this seems one-sided to me. Look at the ] page please. Look at how it shows both sides, and you may understand my view point. The Sex Tourism page is an overlapping subject with the Prostitution page and needs to show some congruence. I want to contribute the best links for our article. But, you can't seriously expect me to find scholarly journals regarding the non-abusive customs of sex tourism. Most journals on clinical psychology pertain to sexual disorders when it comes to sex. You didn't provide any sources from such journals. We might as well rename the article "What the U.N. has to say about sex tourism". These are very good sources which must be included, but they don't show both sides.

What would you think if I provided links of websites to sex tourism attractions that show the existence of observational sex tourism and participation in sex tourism that doesn't involve the use of prostitution. You guys need to understand that most sex tourism establishments don't have websites because people tend to keep quiet under the negative stigma, which was my original point. But that doesn't mean they aren't out there. describes the activates mentioned in the second paragraph. This is a clean website. I could show you some more explicit websites, but I don't think that would be good taste. We are talking about controversial practices of sex though, it is not always described without bias in journals and political sources. There are plenty of subjects on Misplaced Pages that are not base on journals or political sources, such as ], ], and ].

I have compromised almost completely from my original definition. I think cultural relativity is important, and that customs of other cultures need to be respected on their own terms. There are forms of sex tourism that don't deserve the negative stigma when viewed on there own terms. The minuscule portion that remains to show this is, "Sex tourism can be used to describe sexual entertainment activities, for example sex tourists may travel to observe live sex shows, sex museums, or tours of red light districts." That at least says that some forms of sex tourism aren't abusive. I will settle with that. Perhaps some other editor will come along and add further to the non-abusive side of sex tourism, but I've done just about all I can under the options that remain.

Also, Edgarde please stop calling the link to Sly Traveler spam. It doesn’t show much respect. I have told you repeatedly why it isn't. I find that term insulting. Also, I don't know if you meant to do so, but your use of one-side subjective sections in the discussion page, such as "Much needed clean-up" and "Spam linkage" might be seen as a device to tip the discussion toward an unfair direction, and it is not very considerate. With that being said, I'm glad we can start working together, and I appreciate the new sources you have added to the article.

I'm going to start compiling a list of links on "sexual entertainment activities" found at the major sex tourism destinations, which support the second paragraph. If I find anything else on the non-abusive side of sex tourism, I will include it. I’m going to restore the link to Sly Traveler since it pertains to my point of view. I have respected your edits, please respect mine. Give me some time to dig up what I can, and then hopefully we can discuss forming a consesus based on the current definition and the new sources.

'''List of links as supporting evidence for the non-abusive activities of sex tourism:
:# The most popular live sex show in Amsterdam:
:# Originally a French cabaret with historical significance; now a live sex show in Amsterdam:
:# A well known bar in Amsterdam where girls preform sexy tricks:
:# Argueably the world's most famous swingres club, hosting orgy events, Located in Amsterdam:
:# Holland's first swingers club; historically important:
:# Terma style sex club in Prague
:# Frankfurt FKK:
:# Frankfurt FKK:
:# Frankfurt FKK:
:# Sex club in Santigo:
:# Home to the Blue Marlin; sex tourist bar in San Jose, Costa Rica:
:# Sex tourist nightclub in Dubai, UEA:
:# Sex tourist nightclub in Jakarta, Indonesia:
:# Sex tourist nightclub in Rio de Janeiro, Brazil:
:# De Wallen tour discription:
:# Sex museum in New York, USA:
:# Sex museum in Amsterdam
:# Sex museum in Paris
:# Sex museum in England
:# Sex museum in Japan
:# A summary of most of these attractions and those without websites
'''

''Note: Despite my request to wait, Edgarde just reverted the page again. He countiues to remove Sly Traveler and call it spam.''

This is all for now. How should we apply it to the article? <br>

Daniel E. Knodel, M.A. 02:43, 5 November 2006 (UTC)

=== Spam linkage ===
Your link to Sly Sex Traveler's Guide is not appropriate for reasons listed ]. Its content is not unique or valuable, and it exists primarily to advertise or sell services. Examples follow (including suggestions for Sly Sex Traveler's Guide; let's keep reading).

Links to Microsoft.com are appropriate for articles about Microsoft. Links to technical pages on Microsoft.com are appropriate for articles on the issues addressed when they involve operations on Microsoft products, even for articles on issues not occuring inside a Microsoft software layer.

Links to Newegg.com would ''not'' be appropriate in an article about Microsoft, even if it can be demonstrated they have a wealth of information on Microsoft products, including specific descriptions of Microsoft products, user feedback on Microsoft products, how-to guides in doing various things in Microsoft products, and pictures of Microsoft product both in and removed from their packaging, plus lots of great hardware on which to run Microsoft apps, plus ... well more examples could be given.

Links to Sly Sex Traveler's Guide are appropriate on the Wikipage for Sly Sex Traveler's Guide. If said site makes its owner a millionaire, then a link to that site could be appropriate for a biography on that person.

For an article like ], Sly Sex Traveler's Guide is as NewEgg to a Microsoft article.

If someone considers Sly Sex Traveler's Guide an important and unique resource, they can make such an article. I would stop short of recommending it myself because I don't think Sly Sex Traveler's Guide is that noteworthy or valuable. &mdash; ] 04:23, 4 November 2006 (UTC)

:It's hard for me to believe you have any familarity with the site you are attacking when you can't even remember its name. is a site that I've included to provide a prospective that our Sex Tourism page did not have, and it is essential to taking a neutral point of view while respecting me as an editor. Comparible links to Sly Traveler that currently exist on Misplaced Pages are the and in the ] page.<br>
:Daniel E. Knodel, M.A. 07:44, 4 November 2006 (UTC)
==== cleanup progress & where to put those sex-related tourist activities ====

: I show no respect to the practice of inserting ] links. You are correct about this.

: If ] is prone to spam and POV assertions &mdash; and as I write this it, that article is categorized for both '']'' and '']'' &mdash; I'm sure someone will take care of it in time. That article is by no means exemplary. You're petitioning to bring this page down to that level &mdash; that's a weak hand to play. I can suggest a better approach. (''Read on!'')

: You have repeatedly asserted a ] definition of ''Sex tourism'', and when challenged on this, you provide examples of the types of services you want to be considered "sex tourism" (instead of ] your claim). Your ability to list such things does not make a case for your definition.

: Furthermore, the definition is not the problem &mdash; this article is about an existing ''concept'' of sex tourism, not a list of ] for it. I hope that's not too metaphysical. What I'm trying to say is: if you have a new concept for which Misplaced Pages lacks an article ''but needs one'', you might want to create an article for it. I'm imagining a title like ''Sexual entertainment resort activities'', but a better name is probably needed.

: If you do this, be very careful not to create a ] &mdash; ''sex tourism'' goes here, the things you list that aren't sex tourism go there, and a distinction should be made on the page you create. More importantly, this should not be a split between "abusive" and "non-abusive" businesses. That article would be as obliged to explain health, social and cultural consequence of such businesses as this article. The purpose of creating the new article would be for you to get your subject out of this definition tarpit.

: Also, items listed on that pages will need to be notable (so edit that list carefully), and that page will ] be subject to edits by many other editors. And of course that page will still need to be within Misplaced Pages's ] and ] standards. But it seems you've at least seen these topics.

: I'm not sure this is a great idea, but it beats trying to cram a square peg in a round hole. (I'd make a joke there, but doing so seems to inflame some editors.)

: Anyway, I've been thru this article and found surprisingly few POV assertions. Could still use more references, and I think I have one or two more <nowiki>{{fact}}</nowiki> tags I want to plant, but I'll wait another day to give ] (or whomever) time to verify the current and most worrisome ones first.

: My changes so far are copyedits (mis-matched case, edit residue, and the like), and adding a "See also" link from ''Tourism involving sex with minors''. I'm hoping no one objects to these. I could sure go without another shouting match.

: Still needs work:

:* Lead section.
:* As ] point out, the only organization represented is the United Nations. More are needed.
:* ''Terms used for sex tourists'' is half a loaf; might be better to delete and move ''sexpat'' (pending verification, but I've heard the term used) into another section.
:* I'm not sure what the right amount of citations would be, but the article could use more.

: Overall I think the article is close to satisfactory. &mdash; ] 05:42, 5 November 2006 (UTC)

Edgarde, your proposal is still one-sided. Quoting political organizations and advocacy groups alone will result in bias coverage. You have not acknowledged any points of view beside your own. Further, I don't think it is fair for you to continuously presume some sort of authority over other editors. I've just made a serious adapt to work with you, instead of against you, and look how you behave.<br>
Daniel E. Knodel, M.A. 06:16, 5 November 2006 (UTC)

: My goal would be to find reasonably unbiased ]. One of the reasons I've so far only cited the U.N. is I've had to quickly throw out "advocacy" oriented organizations. One would expect advertisers promoting sex tourism, for example, to be prone to ] in their statements. &mdash; ] 06:30, 5 November 2006 (UTC)

:: I've deleted Addhoc's citation needed-note. Will my external links suffice to support the second paragraph? Also I completely disagree with paragragh three. We said before that there is a distiction between child sex tourism, and there is another page on Misplaced Pages for it. <br>
::Daniel E. Knodel, M.A. 11:14, 5 November 2006 (UTC)

::: I've restored that tag. Please see my previous paragraph on your ''novel definition of Sex tourism''. No one is disputing the existence of sex museums or redlight district tours. &mdash; ] 19:49, 5 November 2006 (UTC)


:::: I've deleted the second paragraph. You made a good point, and I don't think it is absolutely necessary. Can we please make a sub-section for organizations and advocacy groups? I don't have any objections to adding citations there as long as we include pertinent references in the quotes themselves, instead of referring to an institution's stance on the topic. A sub-section will allow for greater detail of what you want to address. The opening we have now basically distinguishes the topic without taking any point of view. The new second paragraph was reverted to a previous writing, which is not as judgmental toward sex tourist, but describes the reasons behind the problem aspects. For example the links to child prostitution and age of consent is more relevant than what a pedophile is. If you are willing to work with me on adding a new sub-section I will try my best in earnest to contribute some good citations form advocacy groups and political organizations opposing sex tourism. Can you suggest a name for the section? How about "The Dangers of Sex Tourism"? <br>
:::: Daniel E. Knodel, M.A. 21:39, 5 November 2006 (UTC)

::::: No problem with deleting the 2nd paragraph.

::::: This is the paragraph with which you replaced paragraphs 2 & 3 of the .
::::: <blockquote>Often the term "sex tourism" is mistakenly interchanged with the term "child sex tourism". A tourist who has sex with a child prostitute possibly commits a crime against international law, in addition to the host country, and the country that the tourist is a citizen of. The term "child" is often used as defined by international law and refers to any person below the age of consent.</blockquote>

::::: 1st sentence: unverified statement, and besides the point. In the article opening we want to distinguish "child" sex tourism from adult while pointing out the relationship between the two in a concise way, not begin argumentation.

::::: 2d sentence: 2nd sentence is vague for reasons discussed under ]. ]'s version is concise and to the point.

::::: 3d sentence: again, most users don't know when and where international law is enforced. Anyway age of consent isn't strictly a factor with some tourists, and enforcement will vary from country to country. This sentence implies the problem is more or less taken care of.

::::: In fact, this entire paragraph dismisses child sex tourism as mostly not important in discussion of the subject of Sex tourism. Weasly language, POV bias. ]'s version was much better.

::::: Revisions on this paragraph (by ], finished ) were discussed under ]. If you have issues with that paragraph &mdash; well, frankly I don't see a case for it, but you might want to comment in that section before you try reverting again.

::::: The 3d paragraph was added to represent an organization stating sex tourism has bad effects. In a discussion of sex tourism it is important to note this. This needs to be done concisely of course, and without using a dismissive weasel-expression like "some advocacy groups". That is why the UN quote is in the first section. 3 citations and you deleted it wholesale. One could imagine this was because it conflicts with your POV.

::::: I've restored both.

::::: Not to personlize this, but I still haven't heard from your advocate and/or mediator. Considering the problems you are having and your claimed inexperience, you probably shouldn't go it alone. &mdash; ] 05:48, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

=== repositioning this section ===
Moved ''Definition of sex tourism'' to its correct chronological position. Sorry I waited so long on this, but I missed some of ]'s comments because they were (correctly) added to the end of this page. I hope this does not confuse.
''Definition of sex tourism'' was created by a new user at the top of this Discussion page. New sections should normally be created at the bottom of a Discussion page. New subsections belong at the bottom of the parent section. This makes threads easier to follow, and new items easier to find. &mdash; ] 08:09, 5 November 2006 (UTC)

:Note: this section is not a dig any an editor (named or unnamed). I've noted this move as part of the page history, and as a tip for anyone who perhaps didn't know where to append comments. &mdash; ] 21:34, 5 November 2006 (UTC)

=== Misuse of terms ===

Your use of the word "pedophile" in the second paragraph needs to be removed . You've used it incorrectly, and you are not qualified to apply clinical terms. The first diagnostic criterion for the sexual disorder '''302.2 Pedophilia''' states that the client must exhibit "Sexual urges, or behaviors involving sexual activity with a '''prepubescent child or children (generally age 13 year or younger''')", as classified by the ] of the ]. There are no countries that have an ] below age 13, and many of them do include ages between 21 to 13 that classify adolescents as children. The concept of '''age of consent''' is important in how it applies to international laws and the laws of individual countries regarding sex tourism. This is the difference between child sex tourism and sex tourism that results from complications with these laws. Also your use the term of '''sex with children''' is irrelevant, as it includes incest and many other problems not related to '''child prostitution'''.

I'm going to revert the second paragraph. You can keep the others.<br>
Daniel E. Knodel, M.A. 22:07, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

: Since this wasn't a medical/psychiatric page I was okay with the "colloquial" version, but you're right in that it can create confusion. Perhaps as an authority you can swap in the ''correct'' term instead of reverting the entire paragraph the argumentative version (which has other problems; see '']''). Age of consent information is better dealt with further down the page. &mdash; ] 01:34, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

:: Your revision is much better now. However, '''child prostitution''' would be a better term than '''child abuse''', which the '''sex with children''' page leads to. First off, the link to '''child prostitution''' already has a back-link to sex tourism, indicating a relation to each other. The '''sex with children''' link is another misused term, as it is much too general. Among many other forms, '''child abuse''' can involve incest at home, which is not related to tourism. Also child abuse does not require the abuser to directly commit harm, as it often refers to neglect. For example if a step-father sexually abuses a step-daughter and the mother knows about this, but doesn't report it, she has committed child abuse via neglect. A therapist is required to report it as well, or else he or she is also committing child abuse. Do you see the difference between '''child abuse''' and '''child prostitution'''? But, again this is often a legal matter, instead of a clinical one, because no country legally allows sex with prostitutes under the age of 13. If you can mention the difference between age of consent (age 21 to 13) and child prostitution (under age 13) that would be more accurate. There are international laws regarding to pornography that classify a child as anyone under 18. There are also international laws for citizens of some countries (i.e. U.S.A) that say no traveler can "intend" to have sex with anyone under 17. This is why I thought the previous writing was better than the one you have now.

:: I'm gong to switch '''sex with children''' to '''child prostitution'''. <br>
:: Daniel E. Knodel, M.A. 05:27, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

::: Good catch on that link to ]. I've flipped it to ''sex with children'' wikilinked to '''Child prostitution''' on the grounds that ''paying'' for it is probably more an expediency than the goal in most cases. Thanks for your attention to detail. &mdash; ] 06:07, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

:::: Nah. I flipped it back to just '''child prostitution''', which is probably more accurate. Shoulda given it more thought. It was better the way you had it. Thanks again. &mdash; ] 06:17, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

:::::This looks good to me. <br>
:::::Daniel E. Knodel, M.A. 10:58, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

== Minor comments ==

There are some minor stylistic concerns...

* use of "one's" if this is a quote then obviously use quotation marks, otherwise rephrase into more natural English. UN documents are often near word-for-word translations for quasi-legal reasons.

* use of "is a draw" and "may draw", suggest you rephrase, this isn't international usage.

* 'adult sex tourism is legal' comment, would suggest this isn't universal and consequently request a citation.

] 11:19, 4 November 2006 (UTC)
: Thanks for this feedback. I think the lines to which you are referring have been removed.

: What would be a good substitute for ''draw''? I think in that sentence I was already using the word "attraction", so I didn't want to say "attract".

: I also didn't like having ''adult sex tourism'' there, which may have the effect coining a new phrase ad hoc. As for the legality part, the ''possibly commits a crime against international law'' is vague two ways:
:# ''possibly'' &mdash; how would one know?
:# ''international law'' &mdash; not every reader will know how and when international law is enforced, so it raises more questions than it answers. I think this is also better removed from the lead section and covered under ''Criminality and Controversy''. (I must admit I haven't given much thought to that section.)
: &mdash; ] 06:18, 5 November 2006 (UTC)

::Thanks for the comments - I've changed the wording. ] 10:37, 5 November 2006 (UTC)

:::Great. Every one of is an improvement. Paragraph 3 is now concise and to the point. &mdash; ] 19:59, 5 November 2006 (UTC)

== External links cleanup ==

] did some nice work on the External links cleanup. However, since a link was retained to a site in which he seems to have a ], I'm restoring the cleanup flag so another editor can evaluate the External Links section in an impartial fashion. &mdash; ] 07:08, 7 November 2006 (UTC)


Sex tourism should be a fun topic and I see many people on here arguing. Just have fun people. Cheers from Aussie. Peace, Nicole. {{unsigned|Rollinglucky}}

: I just reverted two (2) edits (by two new accounts) that deleted data without explanation, including ''all'' external links (some of which I think might be worth keeping). The above comment notwithstanding. &mdash; ] 17:08, 11 November 2006 (UTC)

It's good to see some new editors taking an interests in this page. Thank you Edgarde for resorting the links. At this point, Edgarde and I are in agreement, and we need other editors to review the links at the bottom of the page. First, please read ]. Then add comments to the discussion of your response to the links we have. Once the links are determaned suitable we need to delete this tag that is currently above the links: '''External links|November 2006'''
<br>As for my input, the links are acceptable, and I have no problem with the tag being removed at this time, considering it's been there for over a week so far.<br>
Daniel E. Knodel, M.A. 22:25, 11 November 2006 (UTC)

==Message boards==

I think part of the debate around what should be and not be included in the links has to do with do we include stuff like World Sex Archives and the like.

I do not have an answer to this, however I know that it is a definite part of "sex tourist" culture and hence added in a sentence about it, with a reliable source. ] 04:16, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

:I don't see any inappropriate links as far as I can tell. I thought all of them were interesting to read and have something important to add about sex tourism. ] 00:42, 20 November 2006 (UTC)

:: Admit it &mdash; you didn't even look. There's been a near the top of that list for weeks. &mdash; ] 04:09, 20 November 2006 (UTC)

Who deleted all the links and replaces the link to Sly Traveler with the one to World Sex Archives? That is a prostitution website, which is already included on the Prostitution page. There were also other good links on there when we setup the tag to review the links. Besides, other editors expressed value of the links, and this edit does not follow the flow of the discussion. This does not respect the say of the majority of editors since the tag was introduced. I don't agree with this change. I'm reverting the edit. Also, I suggest that the tag be removed. This is unproductive and prevents other editors from bringing new content to the topic.<br>
Daniel E. Knodel, M.A. 08:45, 20 November 2006 (UTC)

Latest revision as of 15:01, 16 October 2024

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Can we talk about that map of the USA?

The North America map has a grey area representing the State of Nevada, where prostitution laws vary by country. That being said, the grey shape on the red US outline looks nothing like Nevada. Can someone correct that please? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 173.32.203.188 (talk) 18:31, 1 January 2019 (UTC)

Contributing

Hi! I would like to contribute information to this page. --Lifeisgood20 (talk) 19:22, 19 March 2019 (UTC)

Gay Sex Tourism

Hi, I think this page is missing a section on gay sex tourism so I am currently working on it. Lifeisgood20 (talk) 18:23, 26 March 2019 (UTC)

Expanding on Opposition

Hi, I feel the Opposition section could use some expansion. I added violence as a factor for sex workers as well as HIV statistics amongst sex workers. Lifeisgood20 (talk) 06:34, 15 April 2019 (UTC)

@Lifeisgood20: Hi, I didn't see any statistics about HIV, just an out of date assertions that " risk of HIV and other sexually transmitted diseases is high among persons who exchange sex for money or non-monetary items". This was true 20 or 30 years ago in many third world countries, but thanks to education, condom campaigns, access to healthcare etc, UNAIDS figures suggest HIV prevalence amongst sex workers is no longer significantly higher than the general population in most countries.
Whilst there is violence against sex workers, I haven't seen any evidence that sex tourism increases this. Figures for the US, which is generally not a destination for sex tourism, are irrelevant here. --John B123 (talk) 17:15, 15 April 2019 (UTC)
@John B123: Hi, thank you for your feedback. I am curious, if my expansion on HIV was better supported with more up to date material, would you find that its place in opposition of sex tourism, should revert? As far as violence amongst sex workers, I find that its prevalence should remain in this catagory because, even though sex tourism isn't a "legal" market in the US as it may be in other countries, there is still a large underground sex tourism market, which should not go ignored. Therefore we also shouldn't ignore the violence that these sex workers (legal or not) endure. What are your thoughts? Lifeisgood20 (talk) 02:40, 16 April 2019 (UTC)
@Lifeisgood20: Hi, objections such as health risks, violence, stigmatism etc are more general objections against prostitution rather than specifically objections to sex tourism so would be more appropriately addressed in the prostitution article, unless of course there is evidence that sex tourists behave more violently or take more health risks.
There is also the problem of over-generalisation. Iceland, surprisingly, has become a sex tourism destination for men from Northern Europe in recent years. Both HIV and violence against women are extremely low in the country. Compare that with Bahrain, a middle east destination for sex tourism, where generally women are second class citizens and prostitution carries harsh sentences, violence is likely to be high because there is little risk of the victim reporting it. In sub-Saharan Africa, HIV prevalence rates are high amongst the general population, so compared to Iceland sex tourism to say Kenya carries higher risks.
Additionally, grouping sex workers together can also be misleading. Using your figures for the US, the murder rate quoted will be far less for legal sex workers in Nevada, but far higher for street workers in inner cities who prostitute themselves to feed their drug habits.
I do think there should be included in the article, although not as opposition as it is historical, the spread of HIV in the 1980s and 1990s through sex tourism. Prior to understanding HIV, it's causes, prevention and care, particularly by the general public, sex tourism did play a part in the spread of HIV. Sex tourism to sub-Saharan Africa, especially Kenya, and gay sex tourism to Haiti are the usually quoted examples. --John B123 (talk) 17:02, 16 April 2019 (UTC)

The subject needs more to compare with. One can go to a nightclub in Goa and experience violence and HIV. How is sex tourism per se any better or worse? Nobody has the numbers. The authors of papers sound as if they have never left academia, and are relying upon subjective tales from people who perhaps don't enjoy having casual sex with strangers.78.16.51.157 (talk) 12:35, 27 July 2021 (UTC)

Russian law and its Enforcement

07:55, October 11, 2021 - «Undid revision 1049260772 by John B123 talk) we should clarify which countries don't enforce the formal prohibition strictly»
20:22, October 10, 2021 - «Undid revision 1049250505 by Alexander Davronov talk) Probably true of other countries too»
19:05, October 10, 2021 - «‎Prostitution across the globe»

@John B123: I propose to keep details because it's unclear whether the laws are alive or dead. Best.

AXONOV (talk) ⚑ 07:58, 11 October 2021 (UTC)

@Alexander Davronov: Firstly your additions are unreferenced, secondly, I'm not sure this is the right article to bring out enforcement of prostitution unless it has a direct impact on sex tourism.
Your additions have been reverted. Per WP:BRD, you need to gain consensus here before re-adding them. --John B123 (talk) 08:25, 11 October 2021 (UTC)
@John B123: You are advised to WP:TAGGING such information first; please see Keep it, don't remove!
@John B123: Relative to : I added it by mistake; I know about talk. AXONOV (talk) ⚑ 09:11, 11 October 2021 (UTC)
@John B123: I've added sources to a similar statement, take a look: ; The section was badly arranged/named so I didn't notice that there is a duplicate; I propose to close this discussion AXONOV (talk) ⚑ 09:44, 11 October 2021 (UTC)

Unclear definition

The opening sentence is: "Sex tourism refers to the practice of traveling to foreign countries, often on a different continent, with the intention of engaging in sexual activity or relationships in exchange for money or lifestyle support." This definition seems to say that sex tourism is traveling to another country and have sex in order to receive money or lifestyle support. I don't think that's correct. Aren't the people who practice sex tourism those who travel to another country and PAY locals there for sex? 2001:4643:1480:0:AD7B:6A5D:4100:A18F (talk) 10:59, 17 April 2023 (UTC)

I added an edit for this Fox.Walczak (talk) 08:18, 1 September 2024 (UTC)

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Grammar

The following quote from this article does not form a sentence, and has no meaning: "The World Tourism Organization of the United Nations has acknowledged about this industry is organized both within and outside the structured laws and networks created by them." 162.253.11.91 (talk) 19:54, 25 November 2023 (UTC)

Male sex tourism

How come there is no definite information about male sex tourism? Although the article hints that male sex tourism is more common, there is no information found about it. While female sex tourism even got its own Misplaced Pages page.

Is this just because of sensationalism? I would really like to get some reliable information, especially regarding the numbers and other countries than South East Asia. Is there a way to flag a Misplaced Pages article so that hopefully experts on the field get it brought to their attention? The way it is know, people are none the wiser after reading this page. 2A02:3100:3A98:4301:19E8:C2F9:3A5E:4B88 (talk) 16:54, 9 April 2024 (UTC)

The 250,000 number

Given the suspicion behind other widely cited and incorrect statistics in this field and the general difficulty of estimating criminal behavior I've been trying to track down the original source of this statistic and the citation leads to nothing because of link rot:

The current citation. (archive link.) is dead and links to another dead article that isn't archived on the wayback machine.

There are other sources which also list the 250,000 number and I found one which cites this paper https://www.researchgate.net/publication/281066431_SEX_TRAFFICKING_IN_THE_TOURISM_INDUSTR that claims the number is from World Vision Australia.

Looking at modern publications from World Vision Australia such as https://www.worldvision.com.au/docs/default-source/buy-ethical-fact-sheets/trafficking-and-sexual-exploitation-fact-sheet.pdf?sfvrsn=2

it states that "It is impossible to accurately assess how many people are victims of sex trafficking worldwide" and they don't provide any estimates.

Looking through World Vision's historical publications on the wayback machine however I found this This article which states that there were 250,000 sex tourists total and that that number includes child sex tourism. The wording of the paragraph is quite confusing and it seems believable that someone could have misinterpreted what the number meant when citing and that that misinterpretation eventually ended up on Misplaced Pages.

That World Vision document also claims that the actual source is from a childwise document retrieved in 2009 but the same url in 2010 contains no reference to the 250,000 number at all: https://web.archive.org/web/20100707032103/http://www.childwise.net/downloads/Child_Wise_Tourism_Information_S.pdf

Given that the current citation is dead, reputable organizations no longer cite this number, and that at least one citation chain ended up in what I can only assume is a misinterpretation I think it would be best to remove the statement that "250,000 travelling internationally to engage in sex tourism with children and youth alone" entirely as unsubstantiated. Null Reject (talk) 23:52, 26 May 2024 (UTC)

Several mistakes

The sentence "Sexual activities that involve minors are universally non-consensual and illegal" is completely wrong, the vast majority of countries have an age of consent below 18, it would be more correct to talk about the prostitution of minors since that is indeed universally illegal. JohnnyBGoode04 (talk) 15:01, 16 October 2024 (UTC)

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