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{{Talk header}}
{{WPBiography|living=yes|class=|importance=}}
{{Article history
|action1=WPR
|action1date=09:44, 31 December 2006
|action1link=Misplaced Pages:WikiProject Biography/Peer review/Ernest Emerson
|action1oldid=97512191


|action2=GAN
The wording of this article needs to be cleaned up. I'm also concerned about the validity or source of this information. From what I understood Emersons first knives were actually kitchen cutlery, and not designed as tactical weapons. Isaac, thanks for adding all the info on Emerson. --] 15:57, 17 March 2006 (UTC)
|action2date=10:26, 22 January 2007
|action2link=Talk:Ernest Emerson/Archive 1#Good Article Nomination
|action2result=listed
|action2oldid=102406858


|action3=FAC
This person appears to be a maker of knives. Should he be categorized as a "martial artist"? ] 05:11, 19 November 2005 (UTC)
|action3date=07:46, 15 March 2007
|action3link=Misplaced Pages:Featured article candidates/Ernest Emerson
|action3result=promoted
|action3oldid=114112881


|action4=AFD
He is a knife maker but he was/is also a martial artist. Is there a "knife maker" category? --] 03:09, 8 October 2006 (UTC)
|action4date=05:04, 5 October 2007
|action4link=Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Ernest Emerson
|action4result=kept
|action4oldid=162393048


|action5=FAR
|action5date=13:16, 20 November 2007
|action5link=Misplaced Pages:Featured article review/Ernest Emerson/archive1
|action5result=kept
|action5oldid=170077616


|action6=AFD
I've placed a number of tags onto this article and each concerns ], ] and ]s. My intention is to draw attention to them so that we can make this article wiki-compliant.
|action6date=05:04, 1 September 2011
|action6link=Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Ernest Emerson (2nd nomination)
|action6result=kept
|action6oldid=449228256


|action7 = FAR
I think that the besy way to fix this article is to begin with a to-do list. I've started a to-do list below. You can add to it if you like. All authentic help is welcome. It is probably best not to remove items from the to-do list until everyone who wants to help has a chance to consider them and add to them.
|action7date = 2023-02-11
|action7link = Misplaced Pages:Featured article review/Ernest Emerson/archive2
|action7result = demoted
|action7oldid = 1137563562


|currentstatus=FFA
If you think you can fix any part of this article, then please do and be bold about it. See ].
|maindate=September 30, 2007}}
{{WikiProject banner shell|blp=yes|class=B|listas=Emerson, Ernest|
{{WikiProject Biography|old-peer-review=yes}}
{{WikiProject Military history|class=B|US-task-force=yes|Weaponry-task-force=yes|b1=yes|b2=yes|b3=yes|b4=yes|b5=yes}}
{{WikiProject Blades}}
{{WikiProject Martial arts|karate=yes}}
{{WikiProject Business|importance=Low}}
}}


== Proposal to remove date-autoformatting ==
'''==TO DO LIST FOR ERNEST EMERSON ARTICLE=='''


Dear fellow contributors
'''1.''' Read ] to learn what is a good encyclopedic entry in Misplaced Pages.


] no longer encourages date autoformatting, having evolved over the past year or so from the mandatory to the optional after much discussion there and elsewhere of the disadvantages of the system. Related to this, MOSNUM prescribes ], irrespective of whether a date is autoformatted or not). ] and ] are consistent with this.
'''2.''' Read ] to learn what is not a good encyclopedic entry in Misplaced Pages.


There are at least six disadvantages in using date-autoformatting, which I've capped here:
'''3.''' Read ] to understand the basics of how to write a ] in Misplaced Pages.
{{hidden|contentstyle=border:1px solid #C0C0C0; |headerstyle=color:black; background: #C0C0C0; |header= Disadvantages of date-autoformatting|content=</br>
'''4.''' Try not to curry favor with stars of the knife community by insinuating ] into the Misplaced Pages community.


*'''(1) In-house only'''
'''5.''' Find good example articles on which to model knife articles like this one.
:*(a) It works only for the WP "elite".
:*(b) To our readers out there, it displays all-too-common inconsistencies in raw formatting in bright-blue underlined text, yet conceals them from WPians who are logged in and have chosen preferences.
:*(c) It causes visitors to query why dates are bright-blue and underlined.


*'''(2) Avoids what are merely trivial differences'''
'''6.''' Start again from the beginning and draft this article as an encyclopedic entry, instead of as a puff piece in a local Bargain Hunter rag, (as is common among many of these articles.)
:*(a) It is trivial whether the order is day–month or month–day. It is more trivial than color/colour and realise/realize, yet our consistency-within-article policy on spelling (]) has worked very well. English-speakers readily recognise both date formats; all dates after our signatures are international, and no one objects.


*'''(3) Colour-clutter: the bright-blue underlining of all dates'''
'''7.''' Model this article after a good example article, such as past ], so that it may someday be nominated to be one of the ].
:*(a) It dilutes the impact of high-value links.
:*(b) It makes the text slightly harder to read.
:*(c) It doesn't improve the appearance of the page.


*'''(4) Typos and misunderstood coding'''
'''8.''' Try to keep in mind that anyone can read Misplaced Pages articles and that the impressions they form upon reading the knife articles may determine whether they view knife enthusiats as knife enthusiasts or as knife nuts.
:*(a) There's a disappointing error-rate in keying in the auto-function; not bracketing the year, and enclosing the whole date in one set of brackets, are examples.
:*(b) Once autoformatting is removed, mixtures of US and international formats are revealed in display mode, where they are much easier for WPians to pick up than in edit mode; so is the use of the wrong format in country-related articles.
:*(c) Many WPians don't understand date-autoformatting—in particular, how if differs from ordinary linking; often it's applied simply because it's part of the furniture.


*'''(5) Edit-mode clutter'''
:*(a) It's more work to enter an autoformatted date, and it doesn't make the edit-mode text any easier to read for subsequent editors.


*'''(6) Limited application'''
] 19:30, 20 November 2006 (UTC)
:*(a) It's incompatible with date ranges ("January 3–9, 1998", or "3–9 January 1998", and "February–April 2006") and slashed dates ("the night of May 21/22", or "... 21/22 May").
:*(b) By policy, we avoid date autoformatting in such places as quotations; the removal of autoformatting avoids this inconsistency.}}


Removal has generally been met with positive responses by editors. Does anyone object if I remove it from the main text (using a script) in a few days’ time on a trial basis? The original input formatting would be seen by all WPians, not just the huge number of visitors; it would be plain, unobtrusive text, which would give greater prominence to the high-value links. ] ] 12:59, 23 July 2008 (UTC)
Sam,


Ernie has been studying the arts almost his entire life and teaching them for the past 20-30. He is an instructor at the JFK Special Forces School and is a senior editor of Black Belt magazine in addition to being a Gunsite, HK and Blackwater instructor. This has been well documented throughout this article. Note the numerous martial arts magazine articles written about as well as by Mr Emerson.


== Difficulty in obtaining Emerson Karambits in Europe?==
Shall I include links to the numerous classes he teaches around the world? I don't want to do that as it may look like advertising or spam.--] 18:50, 19 November 2006 (UTC)


Has the Emerson company stopped mass producing their fixed blade Karambit? It seems that you cant get these type of knife anymore in Europe. Are these types of knife considered custom jobs by Ernest himself? --] (]) 17:39, 16 February 2011 (UTC)
'''1.(b)''' Please try to maintain some ] in working on this article. Misplaced Pages is a collaborative effort managed by consensus. These articles don't have to be done in one day, but they have to be done right.
:They are still listed in the print and online catalogs. They are not a custom item. You may want to contact the Company directly, I know a local shop in Nevada received a few of these in the past few months. They do make their knives in batches, so they may be making something else right now, but I'm sure they have them in stock.--] - ] 17:55, 16 February 2011 (UTC)


Thank you for your reply. I suppose good workmanship takes time and patience! :) --] (]) 21:20, 16 February 2011 (UTC)


== Featured article concerns ==
Reply to first point. I clarified the scope and tone of this article.
This biography page is about Ernest Emerson as a custom knifemaker and as a martial artist.
You are correct in saying that simply by being a martial artist it does not make you a better knifemaker and the inverse is true, being a knifemaker doesn't necesarrily make you a martial artist! In this case, what the original author (not myself) was trying to show was that Emerson is in a unique position to be both.
Mr Emerson is a Martial artist...is this what you are trying to dispute?
--] 18:41, 19 November 2006 (UTC)


This article has deteriorated a bit since its last ]. I'm noticing a lot of uncited trivia type entries in the "in the media" section. Also, sources will need individual page numbers for each cite rather than citing only a range of pages; Coombs is a good example. If these issues can be resolved in a timely manner a FAR can be avoided. Thanks. ] (]) 15:48, 6 October 2011 (UTC)


''below is copied from my talk page ] (]) 23:00, 6 October 2011 (UTC)''
:Hi, thanks for the note. Can you define a timely manner? Do you mean 2 hours? 2 days? 2 months? I'm working on the film stuff first as that's an easy fix. The actual page numbers will take a little more time, but it can be done. Thanks again for raising this on the talk page so we can work on it.--] - ] 16:57, 6 October 2011 (UTC)
::I understand that page numbers will take longer. I'll check back on the article in a couple of weeks unless you ping me sooner. ] (]) 17:54, 6 October 2011 (UTC)
:::Thanks. Could you take a quick look at the media section and let me know if I am ok with the sourcing on the films, etc? If this passes muster I'll use the TV episode cite template for ''Burn Notice''. I happened to have the Combs article (magazine actually) on my desk so I could fix that one quickly, the others, I have at home, and I can probably get to those (and have them completed) by end of day Friday.--] - ] 17:59, 6 October 2011 (UTC)
::::I'm noticing other issues now. What I listed above was from a quick look at things. I'll have to come back in a day or two and give a full review. The article might actually benefit from going through a FAR as it would gain a larger pool of comments other than my own. ] (]) 23:00, 6 October 2011 (UTC)
:::::Let me know. I'm pretty reasonable to work with, I've gone through everything with this piece: personal attacks on me, a FAR after it was on the mainpage in 2007, 3 attempts at AFD, harrassing phonecalls, email viruses, falsely accused of sockpuppetry, online stalking, etc. I swear, half the time I think it would be easier to just have a fistfight or a duel over it.:)--] - ] 23:29, 6 October 2011 (UTC)
::::::Now that I've stirred up the hornets nest I should probably tell you that the entire reason I started this <u>informal</u> review is exactly because of all the controversy that has surrounded the article. If the article is kept in tip-top shape and to current expectations for an FA then there is less ammunition available for attempts to shoot it down.
::::::Most of the time when I leave a talk page notice there is never a response so I don't bother to do a detailed review at first unless someone shows interest in repairing problems. There is no time limit here as long as things are being addressed. When the page number issues are done I'll revisit. If you have questions just ask here; it's on my watchlist. ] (]) 15:57, 8 October 2011 (UTC)
:::::::Yeah, I saw how you drygulched ], had I known it was going through FAR, we'd still be fighting over it. :) This one isn't that controversial, just happens when Emerson appears on a talk show (he was on 3 or 4 the week that a user inactive for 4 years tried to get it deleted) or posts something slightly right leaning on his personal blog. For the record, AFD doesn't give a shit if an article is featured. Neither do the vandals, competitors, or people who break down in tears at the thought of people carrying pocketknives or socialists who think anything representing a business entity is advertising. Like I said, I'm easy to work with and I'll address any valid concerns.--] - ] 16:26, 8 October 2011 (UTC)
::::::::Checking back. I notice you have a mix of Harvard referencing and straight inline citations which would be a 2c issue. I'd like to try and fix these up but don't want to just dive in without consultation. Since you have a mix of citation styles, the style you want to follow needs a decision. ] (]) 14:30, 2 December 2011 (UTC)
:::::::::I've always preferred the Harvard style, but every now and then get a ration of shit over it from someone. I thought I had purged the Harvard style from here, though?--] - ] 16:17, 2 December 2011 (UTC)
::::::::::OK apparently, I didn't. I think I fixed it and made them all Harvard, feel free to help out if you wish.--] - ] 17:20, 2 December 2011 (UTC)
Brad101, you're nomming one FAR per week now (an exception only because the FAR page wasn't backlogged); for the record, I don't think putting some vague claims here-- without backing them up with specifics-- qualifies as notifying that a FAR is needed. If you see problems, please list them with clarity and specificity per ]. The issues have been addressed as you have raised them, and generally saying that you think an article needs a FAR is not really in the spirit of how FAR works. ] (]) 03:19, 7 October 2011 (UTC)


===Break===
b. Reply to second point: Again, this is Mr Emerson's biography page. I feel that a biography should include where a person was born and under what circumstances.
Mike, 2c does not require that any particular citation format be used; only that a format is consistent throughout the article. I had to overhaul the citations for ] and would like to do the same style here with bibliography etc. I can use harvard if that's what you prefer. ] (]) 20:13, 3 December 2011 (UTC)
See ] or ] for examples.
:No, I knew that. I, too, think the harvard style works well with a bibiliography and the type of sourcing here when single sources provide multiple refs. This particular knife maker has had a pretty diverse career as opposed to those where a maker is known for one method of making knives or one or two blade shapes.--] - ] 04:40, 4 December 2011 (UTC)
::I'm sort of stuck now with an issue. Is there any particular reason why some passages have 3 or more citations? In one case there are over 6. It seems to me like citation overkill but on top of that there are a multitude of notes that don't seem to be worth much. ] (]) 22:03, 6 December 2011 (UTC)
:::Way back before I even knew what a FA was, there was an editor who worked for a competing knife company who was being a dick about things. I'd add a ref, he'd delete it, etc. Then 2 refs weren't good enough for him for a statement so it snowballed a bit. Every now and then some hopolophobe (person with an irrational fear of weapons) or a plebian who cannot fathom a knife costing more than his car gets in a tizzy and either tries the same tactic or wants to know what some of the offline sources axtually say...hence the redundant notes. I guess I was trying to show, it's not one writer making these claims or one or two publications, it's many over a period of 25+ years through journals and books about knives, guns, Navy SEALs, and martial arts. At a glance all those fields look "the same", but they are all in fact different and its only very few who garner coverage on all fronts. Some yokel once complained that Emerson was "just a cutler". This isn't some guy cranking out knives in a backyard shop, the State of Nevada actually held hearings to change State laws regarding switchblades so he could open a second factory there to supply the military with automatic knives.--] - ] 00:56, 7 December 2011 (UTC)
::::Took a day or so thinking about this. I believe that two cites are ok and three is ok if really needed but any more than that is not useful. I'd like to see the cites reduced but we will not delete them entirely. I split the biblio section into two parts. One for sources cited in the article and one for additional sources. The sources that get removed from the article can be moved into the additional section. Essentially that means the additional sources were consulted for the article but not cited in the article.
::::The mass of quotations can be taken out of the separate section and attached to the inline citations and sources and that will clear the article of all those little inline letters. But since you hold all of the references you will have to decide which is important enough to keep as a cite and which should go to the additional pile. ] (]) 18:52, 8 December 2011 (UTC)
:::::Fair enough. I was patterning the sources off another Featured Article, which ironically is now not Featured and the author did something similar with the footnotes. They were a pain in the ass to put in and I have never used that style since (nor has anyone else that I have seen). If I see no activity on here for a while I'll start incorporating the more pertinent ones using the ''quote'' attribute in the citation template.--] - ] 19:16, 8 December 2011 (UTC)
::::::I see you're working now; looks better already. I'll go away for a couple days while you clean things up. ] (]) 19:49, 8 December 2011 (UTC)
:::::::You didn't find any sources to put into the additional section? ] (]) 20:41, 12 December 2011 (UTC)
::::::::I'll work on that this afternoon. Sorry, I had to turn in several articles this weekend for work I actually get paid for.--] - ] 21:24, 12 December 2011 (UTC)
::::::::I have whittled down the sources. Let me know if this is what you wanted to see.--] - ] 22:26, 14 December 2011 (UTC)
:::::::::You have left me almost nothing to do ;) You may want to use harvnb which removes the parentheses from the citations. harv is normally used for citing inline with text ie: ''Text text text''(Smith 2007 pp. 1-2). You may want to think about expanding the lede section too; it's a bit short. Thanks for being cooperative and non-combative during this. I wish others were more like that. ] (]) 04:35, 17 December 2011 (UTC)
:::::::::::Done! I started to realize that myself when I was 3/4 in, but knew it would be an easy change. I broke the lede out a bit more, I'll definitely work on that one. No problem, you didn't ask for anything unreasonable, I remember some real winner on here trashing the NASA stuff and went so far as to denounce this video , as a fake, telling me I had to provide a manifest for the knife on a Shuttle Mission! The article looks a lot cleaner now, thanks to your suggestions.--] - ] 06:04, 17 December 2011 (UTC)


=== Page nos ===
It may seem trivial or have no apparent connection at first glance, but who is to say when all is said and done that it will not have impact elsewhere? Knifemakers are artists and like most people where they lived or were born can influence how they approach different things in life.
Hard to tell why the citation style had to be changed, but whatever ... page numbers are not needed on those magazines (and in fact, are already given). We don't typically cite page nos on such small ranges, don't cite them at all on journal articles, and the page ranges given on those magazines is small enough that the text can be verified. ] (]) 02:32, 6 December 2011 (UTC)
:I know I'm picking on your pet article Sandy but it doesn't meet 2c requirements for several reasons. Some of the harvs are broken and there is a mix of citation styles. I'm trying to assist on fixing the issues rather than drag the article to FAR. However, if I keep getting flack about helping out I'll just start a FAR and let someone else work on it. I've enough things to do as it is. ] (]) 17:40, 6 December 2011 (UTC)
:: Not even close to my "pet" article, whatever that means (I do have one, though :) Anyway, as I said, I don't understand why the citation style was ever messed with to begin with, but yes, now it needs fixing, but adding page nos when the (small) ranges are already given is not part of that fixin. And I hope we're not dragging articles to FAR over citation consistency, because that sort of thing is what gives FAC and FAR a bad rap. By the way, thanks for the help here; I'd offer to help, but I hate harvnbs, would never use them, and don't know how. ] (]) 18:03, 6 December 2011 (UTC)
:::I too, dislike harvs but the article had to go one way or the other and Mike chose harvs so that's what he'll get. ] (]) 18:52, 8 December 2011 (UTC)
=== 2016 ===
{{u|Nikkimaria}} has tagged the "Emerson's knives in the media" section since April 2016. What exactly should be done with it? (see also the discussion above) <span style="font-family: serif; letter-spacing: 0.1em">–&nbsp;]</span> (] ⋅ ]) 23:51, 14 August 2016 (UTC)
:Per ], this type of content now requires secondary sourcing. ] (]) 00:27, 15 August 2016 (UTC)
::{{re|Nikkimaria}} Agreed. I've removed all such instances. I left the paragraph on David Morrell's work as it's the only one that's discussed with a secondary reference. Do you think this paragraph can stay, should it be cut down, or will it be removed? <span style="font-family: serif; letter-spacing: 0.1em">–&nbsp;]</span> (] ⋅ ]) 00:49, 15 August 2016 (UTC)
:::That one is fine IMO. ] (]) 02:26, 15 August 2016 (UTC)


== External links modified ==
Keep in mind that in cleaning up this article the chronological events have not moved past 1997/1998. Nor have I had a chance to update it with Emerson Combat Systems and Mr Emerson's contributions to the Martial Arts world.


Hello fellow Wikipedians,
For the record, how many people do you know that were born in log cabins in the past 50 years?


I have just modified one external link on ]. Please take a moment to review . If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit ] for additional information. I made the following changes:
Bottom line and it may be my attempt to clean this up is I'm trying to show how one event influences the next in an orderly fashion.
*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20070929050824/http://ernestemersoncustomguitars.com/ to http://ernestemersoncustomguitars.com/
Interest in Martial arts leads to Ernie needing a knife. Perhaps growing up in the country this mentality made people more resourceful than their urban counterparts. Why buy when you can make one? Had the man been born somewhere else, he may have simply bought an imported knife at the time and never become a knifemaker.


When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.
Thew aerospace connection shows how Mr Emerson had access to materials at a time when these were not generally available to other knifemakers, Ti, Carbon Fiber, etc. Also shows his background in engineering and design, etc. I can think of several other custom knifemakers who came from this field: DDR, Walker, and Ken Onion immediately come to mind.
--] 18:41, 19 November 2006 (UTC)


{{sourcecheck|checked=false|needhelp=}}
==Don't believe it was meant to be advertising==
Sam, I created the original article and I didn't intend it to be an advertisement. I do agree it reads like a fan letter, but it does contain some good information. --] 13:02, 3 October 2006 (UTC)


Cheers.—] <span style="color:green;font-family:Rockwell">(])</span> 01:26, 23 September 2017 (UTC)
I'm on it Sam. I have a ton of source material, print and otherwise going back to 1987 on Emerson Knives. The majority of the sources I have cited are available as scans. I would be more than happy to forward them to any fact checkers. --] 18:20, 7 October 2006 (UTC)


== External links modified ==
OK, Sam


Hello fellow Wikipedians,
On the discussion page go fact by fact on everything you want to dispute.


I have just modified one external link on ]. Please take a moment to review . If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit ] for additional information. I made the following changes:
--] 18:09, 19 November 2006 (UTC)
*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20120331122528/http://archive.shotsmag.co.uk/shots21/intvus_21/dmorrell1.html to http://archive.shotsmag.co.uk/shots21/intvus_21/dmorrell1.html


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==Editing Background==
I started editing what we have for this section. We need to find the name of the town or county where he was born and to stop making him out to be "Daniel Boone with a slide rule."


{{sourcecheck|checked=false|needhelp=}}
Maybe this could use more relevant background info; however, if you know him personally and know that he loves animals, is kind to women, sings in an eight-octave range, volunteers to work in a soup kitchen every Thanskgiving Day and his flatus smells like pumpkin pie - and you think all that is interesting - then please write a magazine article about him. Magazines do "interesting" profiles. Encyclopedias are supposed to be informative. ] 07:56, 21 November 2006 (UTC)


Cheers.—] <span style="color:green;font-family:Rockwell">(])</span> 09:50, 24 September 2017 (UTC)


== External links modified ==
Nobody was making anyone out to be "Daniel Boone with a slide rule".
I've known the man personally for over 20 years, I'm asking you for the last time...what exactly do you want me to put here? What type of documentation do you need to see? You admitted 3 times that you know nothing of Mr Emerson's knives or background yet insist on being some sort of moderator. This is not knifenetwork with it's 15 members.


Hello fellow Wikipedians,
If I put up where he was born will you demand to see birth certificates or threaten to throw it out for not being sourced?


I have just modified one external link on ]. Please take a moment to review . If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit ] for additional information. I made the following changes:
Please point me to what you consider a perfect biography on Misplaced Pages so I can see what you're talking about, I have no use for your sarcastic tone.
*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20111113041943/http://marinecorpstimes.com/offduty/technology/offduty_shot_tactical_020911w/ to http://marinecorpstimes.com/offduty/technology/offduty_shot_tactical_020911w/
--] 08:11, 21 November 2006 (UTC)

When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.

{{sourcecheck|checked=false|needhelp=}}

Cheers.—] <span style="color:green;font-family:Rockwell">(])</span> 04:10, 7 October 2017 (UTC)

== FA concerns ==

I am reviewing this article as part of ], an initiative to review and improve Misplaced Pages's oldest ]. I am concerned that this article does not meet the ] anymore. Some of my concerns are outlined below:
*The article needs an update to include more recent events. The most recent source is from 2015 and more recent activity should be included in the article.
*The lede is quite short and I think it should be expanded.
*There are lots of sources listed in "Additional references" that should be evaluated for their inclusion in the article.
*Lots of the sources in "Cited in article" do not seem to be cited in the article. Should they be removed or used as a source?
Is anyone interested in making improvements to the article, or should this be sent to ]? ] (]) 19:32, 13 November 2022 (UTC)

Latest revision as of 23:52, 13 February 2024

This is the talk page for discussing improvements to the Ernest Emerson article.
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  4. Grammar and style: criterion met
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Proposal to remove date-autoformatting

Dear fellow contributors

MOSNUM no longer encourages date autoformatting, having evolved over the past year or so from the mandatory to the optional after much discussion there and elsewhere of the disadvantages of the system. Related to this, MOSNUM prescribes rules for the raw formatting, irrespective of whether a date is autoformatted or not). MOSLINK and CONTEXT are consistent with this.

There are at least six disadvantages in using date-autoformatting, which I've capped here:

Disadvantages of date-autoformatting


  • (1) In-house only
  • (a) It works only for the WP "elite".
  • (b) To our readers out there, it displays all-too-common inconsistencies in raw formatting in bright-blue underlined text, yet conceals them from WPians who are logged in and have chosen preferences.
  • (c) It causes visitors to query why dates are bright-blue and underlined.
  • (2) Avoids what are merely trivial differences
  • (a) It is trivial whether the order is day–month or month–day. It is more trivial than color/colour and realise/realize, yet our consistency-within-article policy on spelling (WP:ENGVAR) has worked very well. English-speakers readily recognise both date formats; all dates after our signatures are international, and no one objects.
  • (3) Colour-clutter: the bright-blue underlining of all dates
  • (a) It dilutes the impact of high-value links.
  • (b) It makes the text slightly harder to read.
  • (c) It doesn't improve the appearance of the page.
  • (4) Typos and misunderstood coding
  • (a) There's a disappointing error-rate in keying in the auto-function; not bracketing the year, and enclosing the whole date in one set of brackets, are examples.
  • (b) Once autoformatting is removed, mixtures of US and international formats are revealed in display mode, where they are much easier for WPians to pick up than in edit mode; so is the use of the wrong format in country-related articles.
  • (c) Many WPians don't understand date-autoformatting—in particular, how if differs from ordinary linking; often it's applied simply because it's part of the furniture.
  • (5) Edit-mode clutter
  • (a) It's more work to enter an autoformatted date, and it doesn't make the edit-mode text any easier to read for subsequent editors.
  • (6) Limited application
  • (a) It's incompatible with date ranges ("January 3–9, 1998", or "3–9 January 1998", and "February–April 2006") and slashed dates ("the night of May 21/22", or "... 21/22 May").
  • (b) By policy, we avoid date autoformatting in such places as quotations; the removal of autoformatting avoids this inconsistency.

Removal has generally been met with positive responses by editors. Does anyone object if I remove it from the main text (using a script) in a few days’ time on a trial basis? The original input formatting would be seen by all WPians, not just the huge number of visitors; it would be plain, unobtrusive text, which would give greater prominence to the high-value links. Tony (talk) 12:59, 23 July 2008 (UTC)


Difficulty in obtaining Emerson Karambits in Europe?

Has the Emerson company stopped mass producing their fixed blade Karambit? It seems that you cant get these type of knife anymore in Europe. Are these types of knife considered custom jobs by Ernest himself? --Ickesshadow (talk) 17:39, 16 February 2011 (UTC)

They are still listed in the print and online catalogs. They are not a custom item. You may want to contact the Company directly, I know a local shop in Nevada received a few of these in the past few months. They do make their knives in batches, so they may be making something else right now, but I'm sure they have them in stock.--Mike - Μολὼν λαβέ 17:55, 16 February 2011 (UTC)

Thank you for your reply. I suppose good workmanship takes time and patience! :) --Ickesshadow (talk) 21:20, 16 February 2011 (UTC)

Featured article concerns

This article has deteriorated a bit since its last FAR. I'm noticing a lot of uncited trivia type entries in the "in the media" section. Also, sources will need individual page numbers for each cite rather than citing only a range of pages; Coombs is a good example. If these issues can be resolved in a timely manner a FAR can be avoided. Thanks. Brad (talk) 15:48, 6 October 2011 (UTC)

below is copied from my talk page Brad (talk) 23:00, 6 October 2011 (UTC)

Hi, thanks for the note. Can you define a timely manner? Do you mean 2 hours? 2 days? 2 months? I'm working on the film stuff first as that's an easy fix. The actual page numbers will take a little more time, but it can be done. Thanks again for raising this on the talk page so we can work on it.--Mike - Μολὼν λαβέ 16:57, 6 October 2011 (UTC)
I understand that page numbers will take longer. I'll check back on the article in a couple of weeks unless you ping me sooner. Brad (talk) 17:54, 6 October 2011 (UTC)
Thanks. Could you take a quick look at the media section and let me know if I am ok with the sourcing on the films, etc? If this passes muster I'll use the TV episode cite template for Burn Notice. I happened to have the Combs article (magazine actually) on my desk so I could fix that one quickly, the others, I have at home, and I can probably get to those (and have them completed) by end of day Friday.--Mike - Μολὼν λαβέ 17:59, 6 October 2011 (UTC)
I'm noticing other issues now. What I listed above was from a quick look at things. I'll have to come back in a day or two and give a full review. The article might actually benefit from going through a FAR as it would gain a larger pool of comments other than my own. Brad (talk) 23:00, 6 October 2011 (UTC)
Let me know. I'm pretty reasonable to work with, I've gone through everything with this piece: personal attacks on me, a FAR after it was on the mainpage in 2007, 3 attempts at AFD, harrassing phonecalls, email viruses, falsely accused of sockpuppetry, online stalking, etc. I swear, half the time I think it would be easier to just have a fistfight or a duel over it.:)--Mike - Μολὼν λαβέ 23:29, 6 October 2011 (UTC)
Now that I've stirred up the hornets nest I should probably tell you that the entire reason I started this informal review is exactly because of all the controversy that has surrounded the article. If the article is kept in tip-top shape and to current expectations for an FA then there is less ammunition available for attempts to shoot it down.
Most of the time when I leave a talk page notice there is never a response so I don't bother to do a detailed review at first unless someone shows interest in repairing problems. There is no time limit here as long as things are being addressed. When the page number issues are done I'll revisit. If you have questions just ask here; it's on my watchlist. Brad (talk) 15:57, 8 October 2011 (UTC)
Yeah, I saw how you drygulched United States Marine Corps, had I known it was going through FAR, we'd still be fighting over it.  :) This one isn't that controversial, just happens when Emerson appears on a talk show (he was on 3 or 4 the week that a user inactive for 4 years tried to get it deleted) or posts something slightly right leaning on his personal blog. For the record, AFD doesn't give a shit if an article is featured. Neither do the vandals, competitors, or people who break down in tears at the thought of people carrying pocketknives or socialists who think anything representing a business entity is advertising. Like I said, I'm easy to work with and I'll address any valid concerns.--Mike - Μολὼν λαβέ 16:26, 8 October 2011 (UTC)
Checking back. I notice you have a mix of Harvard referencing and straight inline citations which would be a 2c issue. I'd like to try and fix these up but don't want to just dive in without consultation. Since you have a mix of citation styles, the style you want to follow needs a decision. Brad (talk) 14:30, 2 December 2011 (UTC)
I've always preferred the Harvard style, but every now and then get a ration of shit over it from someone. I thought I had purged the Harvard style from here, though?--Mike - Μολὼν λαβέ 16:17, 2 December 2011 (UTC)
OK apparently, I didn't. I think I fixed it and made them all Harvard, feel free to help out if you wish.--Mike - Μολὼν λαβέ 17:20, 2 December 2011 (UTC)

Brad101, you're nomming one FAR per week now (an exception only because the FAR page wasn't backlogged); for the record, I don't think putting some vague claims here-- without backing them up with specifics-- qualifies as notifying that a FAR is needed. If you see problems, please list them with clarity and specificity per WP:WIAFA. The issues have been addressed as you have raised them, and generally saying that you think an article needs a FAR is not really in the spirit of how FAR works. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 03:19, 7 October 2011 (UTC)

Break

Mike, 2c does not require that any particular citation format be used; only that a format is consistent throughout the article. I had to overhaul the citations for Abraham Lincoln and would like to do the same style here with bibliography etc. I can use harvard if that's what you prefer. Brad (talk) 20:13, 3 December 2011 (UTC)

No, I knew that. I, too, think the harvard style works well with a bibiliography and the type of sourcing here when single sources provide multiple refs. This particular knife maker has had a pretty diverse career as opposed to those where a maker is known for one method of making knives or one or two blade shapes.--Mike - Μολὼν λαβέ 04:40, 4 December 2011 (UTC)
I'm sort of stuck now with an issue. Is there any particular reason why some passages have 3 or more citations? In one case there are over 6. It seems to me like citation overkill but on top of that there are a multitude of notes that don't seem to be worth much. Brad (talk) 22:03, 6 December 2011 (UTC)
Way back before I even knew what a FA was, there was an editor who worked for a competing knife company who was being a dick about things. I'd add a ref, he'd delete it, etc. Then 2 refs weren't good enough for him for a statement so it snowballed a bit. Every now and then some hopolophobe (person with an irrational fear of weapons) or a plebian who cannot fathom a knife costing more than his car gets in a tizzy and either tries the same tactic or wants to know what some of the offline sources axtually say...hence the redundant notes. I guess I was trying to show, it's not one writer making these claims or one or two publications, it's many over a period of 25+ years through journals and books about knives, guns, Navy SEALs, and martial arts. At a glance all those fields look "the same", but they are all in fact different and its only very few who garner coverage on all fronts. Some yokel once complained that Emerson was "just a cutler". This isn't some guy cranking out knives in a backyard shop, the State of Nevada actually held hearings to change State laws regarding switchblades so he could open a second factory there to supply the military with automatic knives.--Mike - Μολὼν λαβέ 00:56, 7 December 2011 (UTC)
Took a day or so thinking about this. I believe that two cites are ok and three is ok if really needed but any more than that is not useful. I'd like to see the cites reduced but we will not delete them entirely. I split the biblio section into two parts. One for sources cited in the article and one for additional sources. The sources that get removed from the article can be moved into the additional section. Essentially that means the additional sources were consulted for the article but not cited in the article.
The mass of quotations can be taken out of the separate section and attached to the inline citations and sources and that will clear the article of all those little inline letters. But since you hold all of the references you will have to decide which is important enough to keep as a cite and which should go to the additional pile. Brad (talk) 18:52, 8 December 2011 (UTC)
Fair enough. I was patterning the sources off another Featured Article, which ironically is now not Featured and the author did something similar with the footnotes. They were a pain in the ass to put in and I have never used that style since (nor has anyone else that I have seen). If I see no activity on here for a while I'll start incorporating the more pertinent ones using the quote attribute in the citation template.--Mike - Μολὼν λαβέ 19:16, 8 December 2011 (UTC)
I see you're working now; looks better already. I'll go away for a couple days while you clean things up. Brad (talk) 19:49, 8 December 2011 (UTC)
You didn't find any sources to put into the additional section? Brad (talk) 20:41, 12 December 2011 (UTC)
I'll work on that this afternoon. Sorry, I had to turn in several articles this weekend for work I actually get paid for.--Mike - Μολὼν λαβέ 21:24, 12 December 2011 (UTC)
I have whittled down the sources. Let me know if this is what you wanted to see.--Mike - Μολὼν λαβέ 22:26, 14 December 2011 (UTC)
You have left me almost nothing to do ;) You may want to use harvnb which removes the parentheses from the citations. harv is normally used for citing inline with text ie: Text text text(Smith 2007 pp. 1-2). You may want to think about expanding the lede section too; it's a bit short. Thanks for being cooperative and non-combative during this. I wish others were more like that. Brad (talk) 04:35, 17 December 2011 (UTC)
Done! I started to realize that myself when I was 3/4 in, but knew it would be an easy change. I broke the lede out a bit more, I'll definitely work on that one. No problem, you didn't ask for anything unreasonable, I remember some real winner on here trashing the NASA stuff and went so far as to denounce this video , as a fake, telling me I had to provide a manifest for the knife on a Shuttle Mission! The article looks a lot cleaner now, thanks to your suggestions.--Mike - Μολὼν λαβέ 06:04, 17 December 2011 (UTC)

Page nos

Hard to tell why the citation style had to be changed, but whatever ... page numbers are not needed on those magazines (and in fact, are already given). We don't typically cite page nos on such small ranges, don't cite them at all on journal articles, and the page ranges given on those magazines is small enough that the text can be verified. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 02:32, 6 December 2011 (UTC)

I know I'm picking on your pet article Sandy but it doesn't meet 2c requirements for several reasons. Some of the harvs are broken and there is a mix of citation styles. I'm trying to assist on fixing the issues rather than drag the article to FAR. However, if I keep getting flack about helping out I'll just start a FAR and let someone else work on it. I've enough things to do as it is. Brad (talk) 17:40, 6 December 2011 (UTC)
Not even close to my "pet" article, whatever that means (I do have one, though :) Anyway, as I said, I don't understand why the citation style was ever messed with to begin with, but yes, now it needs fixing, but adding page nos when the (small) ranges are already given is not part of that fixin. And I hope we're not dragging articles to FAR over citation consistency, because that sort of thing is what gives FAC and FAR a bad rap. By the way, thanks for the help here; I'd offer to help, but I hate harvnbs, would never use them, and don't know how. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 18:03, 6 December 2011 (UTC)
I too, dislike harvs but the article had to go one way or the other and Mike chose harvs so that's what he'll get. Brad (talk) 18:52, 8 December 2011 (UTC)

2016

Nikkimaria has tagged the "Emerson's knives in the media" section since April 2016. What exactly should be done with it? (see also the discussion above) – Finnusertop (talkcontribs) 23:51, 14 August 2016 (UTC)

Per this RfC, this type of content now requires secondary sourcing. Nikkimaria (talk) 00:27, 15 August 2016 (UTC)
@Nikkimaria: Agreed. I've removed all such instances. I left the paragraph on David Morrell's work as it's the only one that's discussed with a secondary reference. Do you think this paragraph can stay, should it be cut down, or will it be removed? – Finnusertop (talkcontribs) 00:49, 15 August 2016 (UTC)
That one is fine IMO. Nikkimaria (talk) 02:26, 15 August 2016 (UTC)

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FA concerns

I am reviewing this article as part of WP:URFA/2020, an initiative to review and improve Misplaced Pages's oldest featured articles. I am concerned that this article does not meet the featured article criteria anymore. Some of my concerns are outlined below:

  • The article needs an update to include more recent events. The most recent source is from 2015 and more recent activity should be included in the article.
  • The lede is quite short and I think it should be expanded.
  • There are lots of sources listed in "Additional references" that should be evaluated for their inclusion in the article.
  • Lots of the sources in "Cited in article" do not seem to be cited in the article. Should they be removed or used as a source?

Is anyone interested in making improvements to the article, or should this be sent to WP:FAR? Z1720 (talk) 19:32, 13 November 2022 (UTC)

Categories: