| Revision as of 01:54, 25 August 2019 editLowercase sigmabot III (talk | contribs)Bots, Template editors2,292,502 editsm Archiving 2 discussion(s) to Talk:Scottish people/Archive 6) (bot← Previous edit |
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{{Scottish English}} |
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{{Ethnic groups|class=B|importance=High}} |
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{{WP Scotland|class=B|importance=top}} |
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{{WikiProject Celts|class=B|importance=high}} |
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{{Archive box |bot=MiszaBot I |age=3 |units=months |search=yes |index=/Archive index | |
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{{WikiProject Ethnic groups|importance=High}} |
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{{Archive box|bot=MiszaBot I |age=3 |units=months |search=yes |index=/Archive index | |
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* ] <small>(June 2005 – June 2006)</small> |
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* ] <small>(June 2005 – June 2006)</small> |
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* ] <small>(May–August 2006)</small> |
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* ] <small>(May–August 2006)</small> |
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== Genetics == |
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== Scottish soldiers in Poland == |
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The mentioned soldiers fought against Poland, they belonged rather to Sweden.] (]) 07:48, 4 October 2018 (UTC) |
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== ref mentions him overseeing building of some ships, not creating navy == |
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Was there any other ''navy'' in Poland?] (]) 11:34, 5 October 2018 (UTC) |
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== King David - invasion not invitation == |
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The section mentioning King David perpetuates the myth that the Normans were 'invited' into Scotland rather than that they invaded and conquered it. The Wiki pages on King David and his sponsor Henry I tell a very different and far more accurate account. David did not simply 'return from exile' but invaded at the head of a Norman army and rather than 'assume' Kingship took it by force in the face of Scots armed opposition. The ultimate consequence was that a new and now Lowland-based 'Kingdom of Scotland' became in reality Britain's second Anglo-Norman kingdom. Cassandra. |
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Whether it's by invasion or invitation not really relevant, but should be consistent among articles, but yes absolutely post-Davidian Revolution Scotland undeniably becomes an Anglo-Norman kingdom along more feudal, continental lines. David I occupies a vaguely similar role in the line of Scottish kings as William the Conqueror does in the line of English kings. |
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== Celtic Ethnicity == |
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"The Scottish people (Scots: Scots Fowk; Scottish Gaelic: Albannaich) or Scots, are a nation and Celtic ethnic group" |
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In what sense are the Scottish people a Celtic ethnic group, exactly? This is a really, really strange opening line. The vast majority of Scots don't speak a Celtic language and haven't for centuries, in some areas by as much as 1500 years. So we're not linguistically or culturally Celtic. As for ethnically Celtic, what exactly is that? What is ethnically Celtic or Germanic or Slavic, exactly when these broad linguistic groups vary internally by genetics so drastically? |
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The only Celtic Scots would be the ones that speak Gaelic, which is around 1% of them. The remainder would obviously be Germanic. I am aware the Scottish people like to often refer to themselves as Celtic, but if they started commonly referring to themselves as a Slavic ethnic group would they be one? Of course they wouldn't. |
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:Slipped in in . It isn't meaningful. ] (]) 23:35, 31 July 2019 (UTC) |
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I agree it's not really a huge deal, but I think we should stay away from... folk traditions? On an encyclopedia. It's fine to mention in the article for example somewhere that the Scots identify with their Celtic past, as they clearly do, and that they retain aspects and elements of this in their modern culture and identity, Austrians and Galicians do this with their Celtic past too for example, but to make a sort of objective statement like this in the opening line as if it is grounded in any kind of fact or academic classification, I just think it always sets a very bad precedent. |
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You know what is quite hilarious is that Austria and Galicia were denied acceptance into the Celtic League on the grounds that they were "not Celtic enough", despite Austria containing the original homeland of the Celtic peoples/languages. |
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== Misleading == |
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This entire article is fairly misleading, is it not? The idea that the Scottish were some defined ethnic group with a language who then absorbed others isn't quite the case. The Scottish historically were exclusively Gaels, speakers of the Gaelic tongue and they conquered territories with Norse and English peoples. They managed to Gaelicize the Norse over centuries (and before this the Picts) but the English were never Gaelicized and instead ended up becoming the majority ethnic group in Scotland over centuries. |
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Why is there no section on the genetics of the Scottish population? ] (]) 12:16, 29 March 2023 (UTC) |
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For most of its recent historical period, about the 1100s onwards, Scotland was bitterly divided around 50/50 between English Lowlanders (who had existed as a powerful minority in southeast Scotland since around the 500s and grown from there) and Irish Highlander people (who ironically followed a very similar path as the English beginning as a powerful minority in western Scotland and spreading out from there), who were only really held together by a Norman/French elite ruling class. |
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== "]" listed at ] == |
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] |
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The redirect <span class="plainlinks"></span> has been listed at ] to determine whether its use and function meets the ]. Readers of this page are welcome to comment on this redirect at '''{{slink|Misplaced Pages:Redirects for discussion/Log/2023 May 12#Scottish nation}}''' until a consensus is reached. <!-- from Template:RFDNote --> <small>]</small> <sup>]</sup> 23:22, 12 May 2023 (UTC) |
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== "While Highland Scots are of Celtic (Gaelic) descent, Lowland Scots are descended from people of Germanic stock." == |
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Around the 1400s the English in Scotland just decided to adopt the term Scottish for themselves and their language, basically, thenceforth referring to the Scottish as Irish or Gaelic exclusively. To paint this image of some all embracing Scottish ethnic identity is inaccurate, Medieval Scotland would have been more akin to Belgium or Switzerland with a political state/identity containing 2 distinct ethnic groups, and later a third minority group with the Norse from Shetland and Orkney while they still spoke it. <!-- Template:Unsigned IP --><small class="autosigned">— Preceding ] comment added by ] (]) 14:39, 24 August 2019 (UTC)</small> <!--Autosigned by SineBot--> |
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:"The idea" you attribute appears to be your own. ] (]) 16:36, 24 August 2019 (UTC) |
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There does not seem to be much evidence to support this generalised and arguably outdated claim. It greatly implies Anglo-Saxons replaced rather than assimilated the Brythonic Celts which recent studies have cast doubt on. DNA mapping by Oxford University in 2015 even found the English population had far lower Anglo-Saxon ancestry than previously thought. Furthermore, whilst there will undoubtedly be higher Anglo-Saxon ancestry in the Lowlands, especially in the former territories of Bernicia, there is in fact similar Germanic ancestry in the Highlands, particularly in the Hebrides, Caithness and Northern Isles due to Norse settlement. The idea that Lowland Scots are homogeneously Germanic and Highland Scots homogeneously Celtic just has no basis in fact. ] (]) 10:49, 8 August 2023 (UTC) |
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Are you suggesting Gaels and English within Scotland did see each other as kinsman? As one people and ethnic group? <!-- Template:Unsigned IP --><small class="autosigned">— Preceding ] comment added by ] (]) 16:47, 24 August 2019 (UTC)</small> <!--Autosigned by SineBot--> |
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:agreed. The shift was more about language and wasn't a replacement of a different group of people. Simply, the lowlanders who were at one time Pictish or Gaelic speaking became speakers of a new language, Scots. ] (]) 14:29, 17 October 2023 (UTC) |
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Are you going to disappear again now you've been rebuked? What's that the 4th discussion you've left hanging open failing to come up with any response or defense for your stance on the issue? Do you want to tell me why James VI of Scotland, who was ethnically English, wished to eradicate Gaelic culture/language in Scotland and even entertained ideas of genocide to achieve it if they were all truly one harmonious ethnic group. <!-- Template:Unsigned IP --><small class="autosigned">— Preceding ] comment added by ] (]) 16:51, 24 August 2019 (UTC)</small> <!--Autosigned by SineBot--> |
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:I am suggesting that you are reading things into the article that are not there. ] (]) 17:03, 24 August 2019 (UTC) |
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== Page image is a Union Jack == |
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I apologize, Mutt, you are totally right as well the article does actually go into the ethnic divides within historical Scotland quite a deal. I just find the article in general misleading as the idea that all these groups are equally "Scottish" is confusing. They're all geographically Scottish, sure, they were all politically Scottish when Scotland existed as a sovereign state. But to be ethnically Scottish was always the Gaelic ethnolinguistic group, which of course nowadays only accounts for 1% of the population at best. |
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I first viewed this page on the mobile app where the main article image is a ]. This does not appear on the web version of the article but it does show up under Tools > Page Information > Page Image. Anybody know how to get this changed? ] (]) 19:23, 20 December 2024 (UTC) |
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It goes into a much wider issue with Misplaced Pages when labeling people like Henry Morton Stanley as Welsh, I guess. Or Thomas the Rhymer as Scottish. <!-- Template:Unsigned IP --><small class="autosigned">— Preceding ] comment added by ] (]) 17:27, 24 August 2019 (UTC)</small> <!--Autosigned by SineBot--> |
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:The image seems to be chosen automatically: https://www.mediawiki.org/Extension:PageImages#Image_choice "It aims to return the single most appropriate thumbnail associated with an article." It seems to be taking the image from the Culture of the United Kingdom template, for some reason. I removed the template as a test, and subsequently restored it, and there was no page image listed while the template wasn't present. "All images on the page are collected, and a score for each image is calculated. The image with the highest score is selected as the page image." Seems odd that this should be one from a template. ] (]) 20:06, 20 December 2024 (UTC) |
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::Thanks. The page ] is very similar in structure, yet the image used is the from the "part of a series on English people" infobox. Is it possible to explicitly set the article main image and so override any 'automatic' behaviour? ] (]) 23:12, 20 December 2024 (UTC) |
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:::Not as far as I can tell. From the "How are images scored?" section of the PageImages link, I think one would have to actively game it to have a favoured image. That would negatively weight it as a choice but having increased it to above again has not made it the page image at this article. Not sure that a flag is necessarily the most suitable choice of image for a people anyway but the Scottish one is probably less unsuitable. ] (]) 00:47, 21 December 2024 (UTC) |
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::::Agreed that it is questionable to use the modern Scottish flag to represent "the Scottish people", but it is worse to use any other flag! ] (]) 01:26, 21 December 2024 (UTC) |
There does not seem to be much evidence to support this generalised and arguably outdated claim. It greatly implies Anglo-Saxons replaced rather than assimilated the Brythonic Celts which recent studies have cast doubt on. DNA mapping by Oxford University in 2015 even found the English population had far lower Anglo-Saxon ancestry than previously thought. Furthermore, whilst there will undoubtedly be higher Anglo-Saxon ancestry in the Lowlands, especially in the former territories of Bernicia, there is in fact similar Germanic ancestry in the Highlands, particularly in the Hebrides, Caithness and Northern Isles due to Norse settlement. The idea that Lowland Scots are homogeneously Germanic and Highland Scots homogeneously Celtic just has no basis in fact. VeryReluctantAcademic (talk) 10:49, 8 August 2023 (UTC)
The redirect Scottish nation has been listed at redirects for discussion to determine whether its use and function meets the redirect guidelines. Readers of this page are welcome to comment on this redirect at Misplaced Pages:Redirects for discussion/Log/2023 May 12 § Scottish nation until a consensus is reached. CycloneYoris 23:22, 12 May 2023 (UTC)