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{{old move|date=30 November 2023|from=Bombing of Dresden in World War II|destination=Bombing of Dresden|result=Moved|link=Special:Permalink/1188705647#Requested_move_30_November_2023}} |
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== Section about German Village == |
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In 1943 the UK and US government constructed a site known as "German Village" in Dugway Utah at a US Army base. The US Americans contracted Standard Oil to construct houses that resemble worker-class residential housing, which was used to optimize the incendiary bombs later used on the Bombing of Dresden. |
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I think this information (that the US and UK government actively invested over half a million dollars in engineering better ways to destroy residential housing) demonstrates an intent to commit war crimes that should be added to this article. |
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There are several references for this available in the External Links section of the following article: |
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* https://en.wikipedia.org/German_Village_(Dugway_Proving_Ground)#External_links |
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Would someone be interested in adding a section about the "German Village" to this article? |
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] (]) 17:21, 25 March 2024 (UTC) |
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== Incomplete references to Dresden Historians Commission claiming maximum 25,000 killed == |
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:I presume that you are aware of ] where there is, with references, an explanation of why civilian homes were targeted and the research that was carried out on maximising the effect of incendiaries. That research even included interviewing refugee German architects (who had fled the Nazis) to learn the constructional details of the houses in Hamburg and other German cities (that did not make it into the article, though there is mention of this in ]). |
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The article addresses the Final Report<ref name="Final Report">https://www.dresden.de/media/pdf/stadtarchiv/Historikerkommission_Dresden1945_Abschlussbericht_V1_14a.pdf</ref> given by a Historians Commission in Dresden in 2010 (individual pages cited as ref. , and by article version 832318440) as the today ''one'' document which can be acknowledged to provide correct casualty numbers of the air attacks of Feb.13-15 1945. My Talk does no question this view in general. In Detail, however, the report's message of a total maximum of 25,000 people killed is not as unambiguous as the article teaches. Controversial disputes are beyond the scope of wiki articles, but regarding the prominent position of this source a revised article version should ''portray'' its existing inner uncertainties and address the associated conclusive options.<br> |
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:Whether or not this all amounted to a war crime{{snd}}for Hamburg or for other German cities is another matter. Any such discussion in the article needs to be well referenced and should carefully comply with ]. Looking at the source for the section linked above might be a start in reaching that balance. ] (]) 20:26, 25 March 2024 (UTC) |
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Remarkable original research results are given by the Final Report on pages 38-40 based on individual burial documents (which are classified in comparison with other data bases as most complete and reliable on p. 37). These listed burial data can be read and summarized quite differently:<br> |
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:'''(i)''' Reading as adopted by the present article: In four subsections on p.38-40 for four groups of burial locations the Final Report counts ('''A''') up to about 21.000 killed victims with reference to two big cemeteries Heidefriedhof and Johannisfriedhof Dresden until April 30 (p.38), ''plus'' ('''B''') on "Other Cemeteries Within the City Limit of Dresden" for "March and April 1945 ... ''almost equally many'' burials on the cemeteries in the city as, in the same frame of time, summarized for Heidefriedhof and Johannisfriedhof together", followed by a formulation of "more than 2.600 ''individual proofs''" (in German: "''Einzelnachweise''"), ''plus'' for ('''C''') "Cemeteries Around Dresden and Beyond" and ('''D''') "Improvised Burials" another number of close to 1.000 burials. Summarizing gives slightly below or close to 25.000 as claimed by the Final Report's Summary on p.40/41 and cited by the article. -- By this way of reading we accept, however, the number of '''2.600''' casualties for (B) as "almost equal" to the share of burials in (A) that took place during March and April - '''in conflict''' with a much higher number on p.38 teaching that "On Heidefriedhof the ashes of '''6.865''' casualties cremated on Altmarkt arrived on March 5" - a position which is outside of any doubt since it is known as reliably documented for decades of years.<br> |
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:'''(ii)''' However, the above contradiction is dissolved if the reader, in analogy to other parts of this Final Report, understands the two statements above about "Other cemeteries ..." (called (B) here) as contributions to the Commissions efforts to distinguish upper and lower limits: With this view, the number of 2.600 "individual proofs" on p.39 for the (B) locations represents a lower minimum of the total of burials there, whereas the ashes of 6.865 victims that arrived on Heidefriedhof on March 5 (p.38) are understood as included in the commission's reference of about "almost equally many burials on the cemeteries in the city as, in the same frame of time, summarized for Heidefriedhof ..." in March and April (p.39). In total the subset (B) becomes, then, 6.865 instead of 2.600 and increases the final sum of documented burials by more than 4.000 to about 29.000 instead of 25.000. -- (in fact, with this reading the final total may increase to even more than 29.000 since other Commission's remarks on p.38/39 indicate that the real share of March/April burials in the two locations of group (A) among the total of 21.000 burials there was probably higher than 6.865; unfortunately, the Commission's Final Report does not distinguish ''which of'' the other 14.000 burials on Heidefriedhof and Johannisfriedhof documented until April 30 took place in February already and which in March and April)<br> |
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Thus, details of the presentation of basic casualty data in the Final Report are equivocal, and a revised article should point it out. Such revision seems the more appropriate since M. Neutzner (editor of the Final Report) addressed some political pressure writing in a separate Report published on March 17, 2010<ref>https://www.dresden.de/media/pdf/stadtarchiv/Historikerkommission_Dresden1945_Bericht_TP1_V1_0.pdf</ref> on p.22: "Since 1990 the administration of the city of Dresden" (which organized the Dresden Historians Commission) "was ... confronted with the request to correct the former number of 35,000 casualties ... An important argument had been that the official statistics were falsified by the GDR administration by political reasons which revision became, with the changed conditions, possible now." (in German: "Seit 1990 sah sich die Dresdner Stadtverwaltung ... mit der Aufforderung konfrontiert, die bislang vertretene Zahl von 35.000 ... zu korrigieren. Ein wesentliches Argument dabei war, dass die behördliche Statistik von der DDR-Administration aus politischen Gründen verfälscht worden wäre, was nun unter veränderten Bedingungen aufgedeckt und revidiert werden könnte."). Again Neutzner remains vague with details and does not tell the reader, which of the groups who "confronted" the post-1990 administration (and, thus, the Commission) with opposite requests he addresses. In fact, Irving's self-correction of his thesis of 135.000 or more Dresden casualties was included in issues of Weidauer's Inferno Dresden long before 1990 (e.g. p.123/124 in<ref>W. Weidauer, Inferno Dresden, 5th edition, Dietz, Berlin 1983.</ref>) and had removed reputable arguments for such high numbers. On the other hand, since 1990 the local discussion in Dresden was and is significantly influenced by groups criticizing the former GDR-Administration for "canonizing" (p. 18 in Final Report<ref name="Final Report" />) the number of 35.000 by "assailable testimony" ("nicht belegbaren Zeugenaussage" - <ref>F. Reichert, p. 160 in: Verbrannt bis zur Unkenntlichkeit - Die Zerstörung Dresdens 1945, DZA Verlag, Dresden 1994.</ref>). For these groups, the presentation of casualty numbers significantly ''below 35.000'' was and is an essential target. Thus, regardless of Neutzner's vague note in his separate Report from March 17 2010 it is clear that the Commission had to act under pressure by politically based requests, and a revised version of the article should take this background into account when prominently citing the Commission's Final Report. |
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Few minor issues refer to two Citations, in article version 832318440<ref>https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Bombing_of_Dresden_in_World_War_II&oldid=832318440</ref> numbered and :<br> |
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: should be omitted in a future edited version of this wiki-page since it is a secondary (citing others) source without own original input.<br> |
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: is a published book based on the Final Report of the Dresden Historians Commission 2010<ref name="Final Report" /> without new own research results different from or additional to the data of the Final Report. The global availability of and of this Final Report is, however, quite different with only the latter present on-line; probably this was the reason why was not included into the Article's Bibliography (but could be shifted to it). For an edited version of the wiki-page it is, thus, recommended to substitute throughout by the link to the Final Report (of course, with reference to the individual pages addressed).<br> |
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{{reftalk}} |
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==5 Group Attack== |
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I don't like editing other people's articles, but, as no one took any notice of my talkpage correction a couple of years ago, I've now corrected the article's misstatement of 5 Group's bombing times. Someone had taken a source that only referred to 49 Squadron and imagined that it applied to 5 Group as a whole. The previous claim about the Lancasters flying at only 8,000 feet is also a mistake. That didn't happen. Despite having written a whole Misplaced Pages article on a Bomber Command topic by myself a while ago, I cannot recall the bizarre hieroglyphic system of keystrokes required for inline citations, but the cite in this case is Taylor 2005 (it's already in the bibliography), p.296. |
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== Numbers of people killed == |
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Incidentally, I notice the article doesn't explain why such an enormous death toll arose from such a routine attack. Frederick Taylor explains this at some length and in considerable detail. The Reich government's official advice was 'the air-raid shelter is the best protection' and that people should stay down in the cellar. Berliners were bomb-wise and knew that this was foolish. Someone had to run upstairs every few minutes and check the building for incendiaries. If they found them, they should call for help to douse the things or throw them out of the windows on shovels. Or, if they saw the fires getting out of control in the neighbourhood, they should warn everyone to evacuate and not stay in the cellars. Dresdeners were not, on the whole, bomb-wise. After the 5 Group attack, the fires were already getting quite dangerous and a lot of people defied government 'advice' and saw what was happening and just walked away from the central area and advised their neighbours to do the same. There were many hours available to get away, and to walk to the city outskirts, before the second attack and long before the firestorm brewed, and a great many people did just that -- some in pyjamas, because the night was unseasonally warm for February. But about 25,000 people, of a more Nazi cast of mind, simply obeyed government advice, stayed in their cellars, didn't check upstairs for incendiaries, didn't check to see if the fires were out of control, and those people died peacefully in their sleep as the fires overhead ate all the oxygen in the local atmosphere. In fact Taylor remarks that Dresdeners were more passive, Nazi and obedient than Leipzigers, never mind Berliners: 'In the case of the RAF's incendiary attack on Leipzig just over a year earlier, the surprisingly low casualty rate had been due to the disobedience of the city's population. Instead of staying in their shelters until the official all-clear, the Leipzigers quickly emerged and took an active part in extinguishing fires before these could spread and become unmanageable. The Dresden population was more passive and more obedient, perhaps more trusting of the authorities. It would pay dearly for this.' (Taylor 2005, pp.296-7 -- but consider pp.289-314 as a whole.) ] (]) 19:07, 16 November 2018 (UTC) |
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:Many of the other German cities had been bombed on a smaller scale on numerous occasions earlier in the war and so there had been time for the inhabitants to become gradually accustomed to the attacks and to find the best way of surviving them, however the people of Dresden had had no such chance, instead they had the full-force of a typical 1944-45 RAF Bomber Command attack sprung on them suddenly in one night. <!-- Template:Unsigned IP --><small class="autosigned">— Preceding ] comment added by ] (]) 11:47, 17 December 2018 (UTC)</small> <!--Autosigned by SineBot--> |
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The number of persons killed in the bombing of Dresden in World War II is a frequent topic on this talk page. If you wish to raise this subject again, before doing so please:<br>(A) Familiarise yourself with previous discussions in the talk page archive;<br>(B) Take into consideration the findings of the ''Historical Commission on the Air Raids on Dresden between February 13 and 15, 1945'' (''Historikerkommission zu den Luftangriffen auf Dresden zwischen dem 13. und 15. Februar 1945'') which was set up by the Lord Mayor of Dresden in January 2007 and reported on 17 March 2010. You can find the full report of the commission at (use Google translate if you don't speak German), in which you will find:<br>"Zusammenfassung der Ergebnisse Im Ergebnis der von der Kommission vorgenommenen Untersuchungen wird festgestellt: Bei den Luftangriffen auf Dresden vom 13. bis 15. Februar 1945 wurden bis zu 25.000 Menschen getötet."<br>This translates (electronically) as "summary of results As a result of the investigations carried out by the Commission, it is found: During the air strikes on Dresden from February 13th to 15th, 1945 up to 25,000 people were killed."<br>(C) Take into account work written by historians after the date that the commission published its findings. (For instance, Overy, Richard (26 September 2013). ''The Bombing War: Europe, 1939–1945''. Penguin UK. ISBN 978-0-14-192782-4.);<br>(D) Remember that, as per ], the talk page is to discuss content of the article and is not for general discussion of the subject.<br>] (]) 13:26, 10 June 2022 (UTC) |
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{{collapse top|title=Comment that does not comply with this request (particularly talk page archive content)}} |
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::Leipzig had only had one serious but weather-scattered and wholly ineffective raid (by 358 Lancasters on 20-21 October 1943) before the one Taylor refers to, the most effective attack on Leipzig during the war, by 307 Lancasters and 220 Halifaxes, with one of 619 Squadron's Lancasters carrying the American war correspondent Ed Murrow, on 3-4 December 1943. In that second attack, despite severe damage to industrial facilities, a German police report compiled a week later states that just 614 people were killed. (Martin Middlebrook & Chris Everitt, The Bomber Command War Diaries, Midland Publishing, Leicester, 2000, ISBN 1-85780-033-8, pp. 439, 457.) ] (]) 18:54, 1 May 2019 (UTC) |
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:The 'up to' is of course nonsense. It was merely a very, very conservative estimate. There was also pressure on the historians commission to minimize the number of people killed. The hole affair was intellectually dishonest from the beginning. In other words: This isn't a reliable source for knowledge on the number of people killed in Dresden. The former GDR-government gave far higher figures than that when ask. Apparently based on demographic statistics of the town. I think they counted 200.000 missing, but the city was also full of refugees, whose dead wouldn't be counted as residents. ] (]) 06:43, 2 August 2023 (UTC) |
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== Requested move 30 November 2023 == |
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(Ian Mostowy - Comments to follow)Man Have you missed the mark. The fact that you're more concerned about times, dates and statistical inaccuracies as opposed to the intrinsic, flagrant moral hypocrisy of the allied forces records and the lack of inclusion of this event in history classes in North American schools, are the issues of note here. When I first learned of the Dresden Bombings I didn't believe it. I was 36 years old and proud as a Canadian of what my countrymen before me had sacrificed in an effort to extinguish the evil they faced. The largest constituent of my denial was my belief that Good won out over Evil in WWII. The realization that the Allies crossed the same moral line as the people that they were fighting is what I cannot reconcile. I know I'm not alone. It's not that a certain number of non-combatants died, it's that the very fabric of our trust in our leaders is called into question; Both for their disregard for human life and the sweeping of it under the rug thereafter. We can only know the total tonnage of bombs dropped because it is recorded somewhere and hence a matter of record. What most people don't know is that Dresden's population at that time was more than a million and there were countless thousands of refugees fleeing Russia at that time too. When the bombing ended, and it wasn't just 2 or 3 days in February of 1945, they were hit after that as well, the city was leveled. History.com states that in those 3 days some 800 RAF and 500 USAF bombers had dropped over 2300 Lbs of high explosive bombs and another 1300 Lbs or so of incendiary bombs. So... Mr Khamba Tendal; Tell me this.....Are you an active participant in global humanity?...or Are you just a guy who likes to read about it and then spout out ill-informed conjecture as if it's fact? <!-- Template:Unsigned --><small class="autosigned">— Preceding ] comment added by ] (] • ]) 16:45, 1 September 2019 (UTC)</small> <!--Autosigned by SineBot--> |
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<div class="boilerplate mw-archivedtalk" style="background-color: #efe; margin: 0; padding: 0 10px 0 10px; border: 1px dotted #aaa;"><!-- Template:RM top --> |
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== Strafing of civilians most likely did take place == |
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:''The following is a closed discussion of a ]. <span style="color:red">'''Please do not modify it.'''</span> Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a ] after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.'' |
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The result of the move request was: '''Moved'''.<small>(])</small> ] (]) 04:17, 7 December 2023 (UTC) |
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At least according to Dr Manuel Wolf, author of Airwar over Europe. |
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---- |
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] → {{no redirect|Bombing of Dresden}} – Unnecessary disambiguation; proposed move target already redirects here. As {{u|TheForgottenKing}} earlier noted, comparable articles like ] and ] lack the qualifier. ] (]) 03:27, 30 November 2023 (UTC) |
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https://www.luftkrieg-ueber-europa.de/en/what-happened-on-14th-february-1945-to-the-south-of-dresden/ |
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:I still think this is the correct move. If there had been another major bombing of Dresden it might be necessary, but from what I can tell no such event exists. For anyone joining the conversation just now, my previous comment 9 months ago was as follows: |
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He quotes an after action report of the US Airforce 20th fighter group, that has up til now mostly been overlooked by other researchers. This information should be added, since it explains the over 100 witness reports about low level strafing. |
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{{blockquote | text=I think this article should just be titled Bombing of Dresden". Normally, battles and such are not titled <event> in <war>, but just <event>, especially if there's only one event. Other examples: ], ], ], etc. None of these are titled "<event> in World War II". Just a thought.}} |
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:Actually, it seems rather inconclusive after reading the source, which doubts the assertion on several counts. In any case, one source doesn't establish due weight. '''<span style="font-family: Arial;">] <small>]</small></span>''' 21:12, 9 February 2019 (UTC) |
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:] (]) 04:08, 30 November 2023 (UTC) |
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:While the web page isn't all that useful as a reference by itself as it is a blog, the same information should be in the author's book (Air War over Europe 1939 - 1945, isbn 978-3000554605).] (]) 20:35, 12 February 2019 (UTC) |
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::I concur on this - Dresden hasn't been bombed before or since this event, so the "in World War II" disambiguation is not needed. ] (]) 07:22, 1 December 2023 (UTC) |
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:Agree with the above comments. ] (]) 19:45, 1 December 2023 (UTC) |
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*'''Support'''. In the end 2010 RM it was stated that there were some other bombings in the 18th century. This is clearly the primary topic though, and an overdue move. — ] (]) 19:59, 1 December 2023 (UTC) |
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*:I don't think it works that way for descriptive titles. ] (]) 21:04, 1 December 2023 (UTC) |
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*The phrase "]" ''is'' ambiguous. See ] (1760) and possibly others. Insofar as "bombing of " tends today to denote aerial bombardment, the proposal is not unreasonable. But it should be clear that this is not precedent for stripping "in World War II" from article titles just because we have no other one at the bare title. ] (]) 21:04, 1 December 2023 (UTC) |
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*'''Support''' per nom. -- ] (]) 14:42, 5 December 2023 (UTC) |
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:'''Support'''. As there are no other major bombings of Dresden, the "World War II" in the title is unnecessary. ] ~ ] ~ ] 16:32, 5 December 2023 (UTC) |
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::The article actually admits that Dresden lay well to the north of 20th Fighter Group's return route from Prague, so 20th FG's Mustangs could not have appeared there. They might have strafed 'targets of opportunity' (this would usually mean road vehicles) quite some distance away in the outlying province, but they could not have appeared over Dresden as claimed. The supposed witness accounts of Mustangs strafing at Dresden are, as far as we know, false. (Frederick Taylor mentions a supposed witness who claimed she escaped the firestorm by floating down the Elbe on an ice floe. The weather was unseasonally warm. Large numbers of people walked away from the fire zone in their pyjamas. There were no ice floes on the Elbe.) ] (]) 18:01, 20 May 2019 (UTC) |
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</div> |
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== War crime == |
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== "Dresden Holocaust" == |
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{{hat|The most recent HarveyCarter sock is blocked}} |
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Multiple sources state the raid was a war crime. (] (]) 10:02, 10 June 2019 (UTC)) |
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:A key point, mentioned in my edit summary, is ] which describes the lead as a ''summary'' of information from the article. New claims and their references need to be first added to the article before they can be in a summary at the start. Please search the article for "war crime" to see a more thoughtful and better sourced treatment of the topic. ] (]) 10:52, 10 June 2019 (UTC) |
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::It needs to be included in the lede. (] (]) 11:44, 10 June 2019 (UTC)) |
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{{hab}} |
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This is not an invention (only) by "far right" people in Germany, but is mentioned in the anglophone literature, I don't know how often, soon after the war. This is told by Erik von Kuehnelt-Leddihn in the preface of his novel "Black Banners" in 1952. ] (]) 16:44, 29 March 2024 (UTC) |
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== Soviet operational goals == |
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:Provide sources if you may. No serious, impartial scholar would refer to it as a "holocaust" or "genocide" today. --] (]) 00:13, 30 March 2024 (UTC) |
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== Incomplete citations == |
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Hi, |
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], you've added the tag {{template|Full citations needed}}. Please would you specify exactly which citations you feel are incomplete? ] <sub> ]</sub> 20:26, 30 November 2024 (UTC) |
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in the article "Eastern Front", section "Foreign support and measures", first paragraph, states that "/.../ some bombings, such as the bombing of the eastern German city of Dresden, /were/ being done to facilitate specific Soviet operational goals. /.../". With that sentence as a theme, so to speak, it is easy to see how points in e.g. the Background section, or some points in the Marshall inquiry line up with this idea, but given the controversy wrt. this tragic event, would not the article profit from bringing this out more clearly, for instance as a separate section? T ] (]) 05:41, 30 June 2019 (UTC) |
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:{{reply to |ThoughtIdRetired}} Each citation needs to provide sufficient information for finding and reading the cited material. Hopefully redundant information, so that multiple paths to the cited material are provided. Put yourself in the shoes of someone wanting to verify that what you said in the article is actually supported by the citation that you provided in support, or of someone that wants to read more about it, or expand upon it, or repair the citation should it become broken over time (that is, ]). |
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So only "far right" describe the burning of 20,000 civilians in one night as a mass murder? What about other western Allied terror bombings (Berlin, Hamburg, Koln) and their characterization as war crimes? <!-- Template:Unsigned IP --><small class="autosigned">— Preceding ] comment added by ] (]) 10:57, 18 August 2019 (UTC)</small> <!--Autosigned by SineBot--> |
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:In general, citing of printed matter is good in this article, but citing of online material can definitely be improved. Citations such as {{tq|"a:\dresden.HTM". www.faem.com. Retrieved 9 March 2021.}} are just not good enough, although the {{tq|a:\}} in the title made me laugh for ''so'' many reasons. Similarly, {{tq|''RA Magazine'', Vol 78, Spring 2003. Retrieved 26 February 2005}} needs additional information such as name of article and page or page-range. A first-year student would scoff!!! |
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:However, to be more detailed, please consider the following: |
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:# Online citations (such as web and news, but really ''anything'' with a URL) need an access-date. Without this data you cannot rescue the citation reliably and easily using something like ], because I don’t know what version of that online material you accessed. You know it when creating or verifying the citation, so please just add it. |
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:# When authors and/or editors are stated in the material, cite them. Both for printed and online material. This helps me, the reader, verify I’m looking at the citation and version you looked at, and helps me decide quickly how reliable the cited material is. It’s also good manners. |
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:# When a date of publication is known, cite it. This helps me the reader verify I’m looking at the version you looked at, and how relevant it still is. |
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:# A citation to longer material (for example, paginated material longer than about a dozen pages) needs a location within that material, such as page or page range, or chapter name. |
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:# If cited material is in another language, say so by identifying the language in the citation. And ideally also provide a translation of the title. |
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:# If cited online material is restricted somehow, say so and say how, so I the reader can decide quickly whether or not to attempt to access it. Do I need to register, or even subscribe to get through some paywall? |
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:# For online material, don’t just give me, the reader, a URL of the website, but instead give me the name of the website or organisation so that if the URL changes I can still find the material at it’s new location. The name is also usually more concise and devoid of repetitive and uninformative trivia such as www and .com. |
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:# Citations of especially printed material need to include the year/date, publisher, and location, and ideally edition, ISBN and/or OCLC number, so I, the reader, know which version you the writer used. When you write it there might only be one version, but by the time I read it there may be many. |
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:I would suggest a consistent usage of the citation templates (such as {{tl|cite book}}, {{tl|cite news}}, {{tl|cite web}}, and ideally {{tl|cite Q}}) would inject the rigour currently lacking in this article, prompt for the missing data, clearly tag data within citations thus easing maintenance in future, and result in a more consistent and presentable formatting not just now but going forward. Additions tend not to be better than what is already there. ] (]) 04:22, 1 December 2024 (UTC) |
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:::Thanks for the lengthy answer. Now that you point out a few examples, I see where the problems are. My own contributions to the article use citation templates, which I find to be the easiest way to get a decent result{{snd}}though even then it is possible to get things wrong. |
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:::I've not done a proper count of the number of inadequate refs (been a long day here outside Misplaced Pages), but if there are not too many problems, it is usually better to put in-line templates to tag the problems. That way there is little doubt what is wrong. Incidentally, I note that at least one of the bad cites is a dead link. For now, probably best to see if the originating editors spot this and fix the problems. ] <sub> ]</sub> 21:06, 1 December 2024 (UTC) |
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::::If there had been just a few, I would have tagged them directly. Alas, here we are. ] (]) 01:52, 2 December 2024 (UTC) |
In 1943 the UK and US government constructed a site known as "German Village" in Dugway Utah at a US Army base. The US Americans contracted Standard Oil to construct houses that resemble worker-class residential housing, which was used to optimize the incendiary bombs later used on the Bombing of Dresden.
I think this information (that the US and UK government actively invested over half a million dollars in engineering better ways to destroy residential housing) demonstrates an intent to commit war crimes that should be added to this article.
There are several references for this available in the External Links section of the following article:
Would someone be interested in adding a section about the "German Village" to this article?
The number of persons killed in the bombing of Dresden in World War II is a frequent topic on this talk page. If you wish to raise this subject again, before doing so please:
(A) Familiarise yourself with previous discussions in the talk page archive;
(B) Take into consideration the findings of the Historical Commission on the Air Raids on Dresden between February 13 and 15, 1945 (Historikerkommission zu den Luftangriffen auf Dresden zwischen dem 13. und 15. Februar 1945) which was set up by the Lord Mayor of Dresden in January 2007 and reported on 17 March 2010. You can find the full report of the commission at (use Google translate if you don't speak German), in which you will find:
"Zusammenfassung der Ergebnisse Im Ergebnis der von der Kommission vorgenommenen Untersuchungen wird festgestellt: Bei den Luftangriffen auf Dresden vom 13. bis 15. Februar 1945 wurden bis zu 25.000 Menschen getötet."
This translates (electronically) as "summary of results As a result of the investigations carried out by the Commission, it is found: During the air strikes on Dresden from February 13th to 15th, 1945 up to 25,000 people were killed."
(C) Take into account work written by historians after the date that the commission published its findings. (For instance, Overy, Richard (26 September 2013). The Bombing War: Europe, 1939–1945. Penguin UK. ISBN 978-0-14-192782-4.);
(D) Remember that, as per WP:NOTFORUM, the talk page is to discuss content of the article and is not for general discussion of the subject.
ThoughtIdRetired (talk) 13:26, 10 June 2022 (UTC)
This is not an invention (only) by "far right" people in Germany, but is mentioned in the anglophone literature, I don't know how often, soon after the war. This is told by Erik von Kuehnelt-Leddihn in the preface of his novel "Black Banners" in 1952. 88.77.80.245 (talk) 16:44, 29 March 2024 (UTC)
Referencing and citation: criterion met
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