Misplaced Pages

User talk:Sugaar: Difference between revisions

Article snapshot taken from Wikipedia with creative commons attribution-sharealike license. Give it a read and then ask your questions in the chat. We can research this topic together.
Browse history interactively← Previous editContent deleted Content addedVisualWikitext
Revision as of 06:59, 5 December 2006 editWobble (talk | contribs)Extended confirmed users, Pending changes reviewers10,640 editsm Albinomite has been blocked!← Previous edit Latest revision as of 20:02, 12 February 2023 edit undoMalnadachBot (talk | contribs)11,637,095 editsm Fixed Lint errors. (Task 12)Tag: AWB 
(232 intermediate revisions by 84 users not shown)
Line 1: Line 1:
{{not around|date=September 2012}}
== Archive ==
*Discussion up to November 3 2006 archived in: ] {{Archive box|], ], ], ], ]}}
*Discusion on the '''Basque ]''' and ] archived in: ]
*Nasty discussion on the ] article archived in: ]


== Re:Más sobre Statesclop ==
----


Hola Sugaar, Este usuario ha sido bloqueado a perpetuidad, pero continúa creando nuevas cuentas si detectas algún vandalismo similar o edidición inapropiada por parte de un nuevo usuario o ip házmelo saber. Gracias. Un saludo. ] (]) 12:27, 20 November 2007 (UTC)
== Basque portal ==


==Spain==
Kaixo! Thank you for contacting me to help you with a Basque portal, but I do not have too much free time nowadays and I prefer ''wasting'' it on Basque Misplaced Pages, and only sporadically on other Wikipedias. I hope you find someone to help you. Gero arte!
And from the simply practical point of view it's misleading to describe him as ruling 'Spain', since the situation was more complicated: one could make a case for describing Philip II as 'King of Spain' from his accession, because he ruled over pretty much modern Spain as sole king, even if the crowns were technically separate - whereas Charles succeeded to the two crowns separately, and ruled a very new union. Yes, for practical purposes, in the body of the article, his Spanish territory can be described as 'Spain' (because 'Aragon-and-Castile' is tedious), but it's not really acceptable in the lead. ] ] 12:48, 3 December 2007 (UTC)


==Elcano==
] 12:03, 11 November 2006 (UTC)
Please, let's finish such long discussion about a single sentence, by finding an intermediate thing that says ut all. I see very clearly how your main source is your personal POV (for example you found very bad that "Spain" was mentioned twice in the same paragraph) and you don't accept what is currently accepted internationally (again when mentioning other encyclopaedias or other sources).


Those coins, texts, etc show you how the concept of Spain with the correspondent culture (eg religion & language) existed. It is internationally accepted that Carlos I was a ''de facto'' King of Spain (e.g. that's how the current national Spanish institutions recognise it, look at them).
:Yes the Euskal Misplaced Pages does need a lot of work. Sadly I fear my Basque is too poor to help much.
:Anyhow, the project is active and the portal too, take a look:
:*]
:*]
:--] 14:53, 11 November 2006 (UTC)


Saying both things ("a Basque Spanish") seems fine for me, as it is based on cultural aspects. If you want to apply a nationality aspect only then it shouldn't say ''Basque'' since he was Castilian (then you can say something like a ''Castilian navigator from what is now the Basque Country in Spain'').
::Thanks for the invite to help. I'm unable to devote much time to Misplaced Pages editing at the moment, but may be able to help later on. It's been 10 yrs now since I last visited the Basque Country, but visited it regularly before then and picked up some of the language in ''Barnetegiak''. Probably my most useful contribution would be to tidy up some of the style and spelling/grammar errors in many of the Basque articles, which have obviously been written by people whose mother tongue is not English.
::--] 21:11, 13 November 2006 (UTC)
:::That's a great help indeed. :)
:::--] 22:36, 13 November 2006 (UTC)


Don't apply different arguments (ignoring the other) for the same topic. We should try to be constructive (agreements have been found in other articles such as Carlos I). ] (]) 09:56, 10 December 2007 (UTC)
Kaixo Sugaar! Thank you for your invitation for creating the basque wikiproject, I have seen that you have created it and I think it's very interesting. I'll try to help you adding some information, but I have a lot of work adding info at our Misplaced Pages and working as an administrator. We have a lot of work with the basque wikipedia, creating pages and getting more people with us. Thank you for your contributions related to the Basque Country, we thank you a lot. If you want any information related to the basque language and country, you can ask me for it. Write me on ], please! See you! ] 23:06, 17 November 2006 (UTC)


:No, it's not POV: there was no "Spain" yet, not even in name. There was Castile and the other relams united under a single monarch: Emperor Charles V. There are no texts (you have provided only texts that say the opposite, like those acts of the Cortes of Castile - only Castile!).
:Mila esker, Txiki. Sadly my Basque is not good enough to work in eu.Misplaced Pages fluently but I can do that here instead. I take note of your offer and hope that it will be of use sometime in the future. Enjoy, --] 20:46, 21 November 2006 (UTC)
:There is no doubt that he was Basque instead and that the Basque ethnicity and language existed then.
:You could say "a Basque Castilian" but that would be confuse in modern terminology (it's like saying "a Welsh Englishman" - no matter that Wales was for long a province of England, it sounds strange as now England and Wales are considered different entities), so the choice of words "Basque subject of the King/Kingdom of Castile" is probably the best.
:Additionally, I think it's wrong to say "Gipuzkoa, Spain". When he was born Gipuzkoa was a part oc Castile, so it should read: "Gipuzkoa, then /an autonomous/ province of the ]".
:It's also incorrect to term the colonies "Spanish", as they were exclussively Castilian, up to the point that other subjects of the same monarch (including the "Spanish" ones of Aragon, Catalonia, etc.) were not allowed normally to enter them. Only someone blind because of an ultra-romantic idealization of Spanish history can ignore that.
:Form the viewpoint of the Basque Wikiproject (and common sense), it's important that he's (correctly and beyond doubt) defined as Basque, because he is possibly the most important universal Basque ever and, as such, he is mentioned in other articles. That's beyond discussion. There's no doubt that being born in Getaria, his primary language was Basque and therefore he is an ethnic Basque without any doubt. I hope you don't even consider questioning that.
:Overall there is no evidence that Charles was considered in his time by almost anyone "King of Spain". The coin you mentioned, minted in America, and an exception in any case, reads "King of the Spains" in Latin, which is a very different title, one used in different variants by several medieval monarchs who claimed some sort of regional primacy, often with little success.
:For the objective historian there is not the slightest doubt that before Philip II no monarch (at least since the Visgoths) had entitled him/herself "king of Spain". Even then, one can argue that Spain was only a generic name and not a real state, as that monarch, like his Habsburg successors, ruled over several states, until the Bourbons supressed the autnomy of the realms of the Aragonese crown, annexing them de facto to Castile and actually forging the modern unified Spain with that action.
:But anyhow, we are just discussing Charles V, who never ever used that title at all.
:You argument like if your "evidence" was inquestionable but actually it's not even evidence: the acts of the Cortes of Castile don't ever mention any "kingdom of Spain" and the Mexican coin is an od exception that rather relates to medieval titles than to the would-be Spansh monarchy.
:Get over it: you are wrong. The only legit claim you ahve is that nowadays some (mostly Spanish) historians want to claim Charles as the first king of unified Spain but that's nothing but an opinion and, as I see it, an ideological apology ex-post-facto. --] (]) 01:03, 11 December 2007 (UTC)


==Charles V==
I'd love to collaborate on a Basque project. I did indeed spend a year there, and my Basque is not bad. Sadly, I'm really new to Misplaced Pages, and I'm not around often. But keep me posted of any help you might need.
It's my understanding that because "King of Granada" and "King of Navarre" were attached to the Castilian crown, they are mentioned in association with Castile (just as "King of Aragon, Valencia, Catalonia and Sicily" are with Aragon). As for Navarre, Upper Navarre was legitimately Spanish after 1512 (they were accepted by the Navarrese cortes) whilst Lower Navarre continued to be ruled by the de Foix/Albret family. ] ] 13:53, 21 December 2007 (UTC)
:Okay, you seem to be right. As regards Navarre, though, I think you're over-complicating the issue of sovereignity - the de Foix/Albret families ruled and were legally accepted in Lower Navarre, the Spanish royals ruled and were legally accepted in Upper Navarre. I'll fix the rest, however. ] ] 16:43, 22 December 2007 (UTC)
::My God, I didn't know about the walls. That's pretty disturbing (so much for 'conformity' with Ferdinand's other kingdoms)... Also, thanks for the info on Navarre, it's good to be corrected by people who know what they're talking about. ] ] 18:41, 23 December 2007 (UTC)


== Question on disciplinary action ==
] 00:11, 24 November 2006 (UTC)


] tagged my article on ] for deletion because it "failed to indicate the importance of the subject," but the information was all in there. I asked him why he did it, and he said it had to do with lack of categorization, broken links, and being a "poor article" (no arguments there, but hasn't the guy ever heard of stubs?!?) I asked about the "no indication of importance" thing, and he dodged the question a couple of times. (Check out my talk page for the other half of the back-and-forth.) I told him I'd report the tagging as malicious if he couldn't explain his actions, and he couldn't, so I'd like to know how to report him. I looked around, but couldn't find anything. Also, it might be interesting to you to note that a page he created at 13:11 today (Dec 22) on a vacuum cleaner has been tagged for deletion. ]. It looks to me like he was looking to get back at the world. I don't know how someone who could write an article like that could call the Lazarraga article "poor"! (I'm cross-posting this to a couple of people on the Basque Project.) <span style="border:1px solid blue;padding:1px;">]</span> 05:07, 23 December 2007 (UTC)
Kaixo Sugaar. Thanks for your invitation, but unfortunately I think I'm not going to be able to help much. I've been unlinked to Misplaced Pages for some months as I've been busy. Now I'm going to restart editing, but my main contibutions will be in the basque wikipedia, there is a lot of work to do there. However, I will help you whenever I can, and don't hesitate on asking me anything. You are doingt a great job, keep up the good work! ] 18:22, 27 November 2006 (UTC)
:Sorry, just found the Community Portal link (d'oh!). I had been searching for variations on "disciplinary action" using the regular search box. <span style="border:1px solid blue;padding:1px;">]</span> 05:34, 23 December 2007 (UTC)
::Kaixo, Sugaar! It's no big deal, and the guy appears to regret having done it (he's helped clean up the article a bit), so I'm just going to drop it. (By the way, someone else added the Senor de La Torre part...) Y una pregunta - ¿tú eres vasco o español interesado en Euskal Herria o qué? Estoy pensando traducir un montón de artículos sobre escritores vascos para ... bueno, para educarme, en primer lugar, pero también para poder crear una página sobre la literatura vasca. Una página sobre la literatura vasca sin ningun enlace (dentro de Misplaced Pages) sería un poco raro, to say the least. Por eso, quisiera pedir un poco de ayuda en corregir mis traducciones, puesto que mi nivel está bastante bajo. Eskerrik asko aldez aurretik! <span style="border:1px solid blue;padding:1px;">]</span> 00:40, 24 December 2007 (UTC)
Great! I'll try to come up with some kind of template that's appropriate. And I'll stick to English... ;) <span style="border:1px solid blue;padding:1px;">]</span> 11:41, 24 December 2007 (UTC)
==Basques_Newfoundland.gif==
Kaixo Sugaar, Would you mind to solve this problem. I'd like to get your map for Histoire du Canada in french, but it's not on Commons yet. Eskerrik asko ] 2 february 2008 <small>—Preceding ] comment added by ] (]) 19:44, 2 February 2008 (UTC)</small><!-- Template:UnsignedIP --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->
: Here is the new map Sugaar. Tell me what do you think of this ? http://commons.wikimedia.org/Image:Basques_Newfoundland.gif Gero arte ] 3 february 2008. <small>—Preceding ] was added at 16:20, 3 February 2008 (UTC)</small><!--Template:Undated--> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->


== RE: RFM == ==Sugaar's History Maps==
I just saw some of your maps Sugaar, great work! I'm checking them out and taking some notes for possible corrections on my next round of updates. Thank you for putting them online. Do you plan to make any more? Respectfully, ] (]) 07:31, 12 February 2008 (UTC)


I took care of archiving it. Thanks for letting me know. -<span style="color:red;font-weight:bold">^</span>]<sup></span>]]</sup>&nbsp;<em style="font-size:10px;">20:47, 11 November 2006 (UTC)</em>
:You're welcome, thanks to you. --] 21:15, 11 November 2006 (UTC)


==Disputed fair use rationale for Image:Euskal Herritarrok logo.jpg==
==Basque==
Thanks for uploading ''']'''. However, there is a concern that the rationale you have provided for using this image under "fair use" may be invalid. Please read the instructions at ] carefully, then go to the image description page and clarify why you think the image qualifies for fair use. Using one of the templates at ] is an easy way to ensure that your image is in compliance with Misplaced Pages policy, but remember that you must complete the template. Do not simply insert a blank template on an image page.
Sorry but I'm gone in south america for 9 month. No project is possible for now. milesker] 14 November 2006 (UTC)


If it is determined that the image does not qualify under fair use, it will be deleted within a couple of days according to our ]. If you have any questions please ask them at the ]. Thank you.<!-- Template:No fair -->] (]) 20:22, 13 February 2008 (UTC)
:Never mind. It will be around when you're back, I believe. --] 11:15, 15 November 2006 (UTC)


== Non-free use rationale warnings ==
== Mediation ==


Please do not remove non-free use rationale warnings from images unless you provide a use rationale. The {{tl|non-free logo}} tag is not a use rational. As the tag says “This tag is meaningless without an accompanying fair use rationale.” Without a use rationale the images will be deleted. —] ] ] 20:00, 16 February 2008 (UTC)
:Medation has begun ]. | ] <sup><small><font face="Times New Roman" color="MidnightBlue">]</font> | <font face="Times New Roman" color="MidnightBlue">]</font></small></sup> 19:35, 15 November 2006 (UTC)
:Please read ] and ]. Official Misplaced Pages policy requires an explicit non-free use rationale for all non-free images. This rationale must go well beyond saying that “certain uses” … “may qualify” as fair use. The rationale must show for each use that that specific use does qualify as fair use and furthermore conforms to Misplaced Pages’s much more stringent requirements for non-free content.
:Strict enforcement of Wikimedia policy takes effect next month, and all non-conforming images will deleted. Burying your head in the sand will not prevent that. --—] ] ] 21:03, 16 February 2008 (UTC)


==re:Aznar family==
I don't know what "Aznar family" means to you, but I only meant the "Aznars" as opposed to the "Seguins" as A. R. Lewis uses the terms to refer to two competing families for supremacy in Gascony. ] (]) 04:26, 22 February 2008 (UTC)
:I simply removed the term from the Aznar article. As to why I use "Spanish" forms instead of Basque or Gascon ones, the answer is simple. I have seen them in English sources. I have rarely encountered the Basque or Gascon ones and I presume it is b/c the Spanish one's are most recognisable (many people know that Sánchez is a patronymic for Sancho) and they are about as close or closer to the Latin of charters as the Basque/Gascon forms. 23:31, 22 February 2008 (UTC) <small>—Preceding ] comment added by ] (] • ]) </small><!-- Template:Unsigned --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->


==Fair use rationale for ]==
You've been asked multiple times by many people to stop being incivil, stop attacking other editors and especially to stop harassing Thulean. Unfortunately you've now continued this both in the mediation and on my talk page. I've given you a short block - please stop the behavior and try to approach the mediation in a civil manner - without attacking and belittling other editors whom you disagree with. ] <sup>]</sup> 20:03, 17 November 2006 (UTC)
Thanks for uploading or contributing to ''']'''. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under ] but there is not a suitable explanation or rationale as to why each specific use in Misplaced Pages constitutes fair use. Please go to ] and edit it to include a ].


If you have uploaded other fair use media, consider checking that you have specified the fair use rationale on those pages too. You can find a list of 'image' pages you have edited by clicking on the "]" link (it is located at the very top of any Misplaced Pages page when you are logged in), and then selecting "Image" from the dropdown box. Note that any non-free media lacking such an explanation will be deleted one week after they have been uploaded, as described on ]. If you have any questions please ask them at the ]. Thank you.<!-- Template:Di-no fair use rationale-notice --> ] (]) 09:15, 26 February 2008 (UTC)
== Continued dispute on ] ==


As the header of the page states and other people have counseled you, please take your complaint about my abuse of sysop powers to the appropriate place. The specific directions for opening a complaint can be found ] and the template to create the subpage is located ]. I look forward to the chance to have the community comment on this situation. ] <sup>]</sup> 09:29, 21 November 2006 (UTC)


==Anti-globalization and antisemitism==
:Shell: the main page of RfC does not say anything about RfCs being the place to appeal administrators' abuse. Instead WP:BLOCK does say it is ANI where it belongs. No mention of RFC.
You didn't need to add this page to Articles for deletion since you put a PROD tag on it. Also, you didn't place it on Articles for Deletion properly anyway -- you simply edited ] and tacked it on top instead of creating a new discussion. But that's okay, it's an easy mistake to make. <s>If someone removes the PROD notice from this article, then I'll help you list it at AfD.</s> ] <small>and his otters</small> • <sup>(]•])</sup> 23:35, 4 March 2008 (UTC)
:Personally I am very sad that you insist in defending your wrong decission when it does so clearly breaks the rules. You have not even defended your decission (at least with minimal coherence) nor has done any other user/admin.
:*Never mind, I see the article's been listed at AfD before; therefore, it's ineligible for PROD. I'll create a new AfD discussion using your rationale. ] <small>and his otters</small> • <sup>(]•])</sup> 23:35, 4 March 2008 (UTC)
:I also find very sad that no other administrator has dared to intervene even when the case is so clearly a policy violation. I am offering an exit in good terms but as wikipedian I can't but follow the correct procedures outlined in the relevant policy pages and I hope that you do the same, because, as administrator you must abide to policy as much or even more than the common user.
::*Double whoops, somebody else already completed it for me. ] <small>and his otters</small> • <sup>(]•])</sup> 23:39, 4 March 2008 (UTC)
:I am getting more and more worried at the apparent arbitrarity displayed and what seems a fear of retaliation felt by some administrators. As compromised wikipedian I can't but fight that with the means that policy allows. It's not just my pride, my feelings or anything of the like: it is Misplaced Pages and Misplaced Pages's pillars what are at the stake.
:::*The correct nomination, by the way, is ]. Like I said, it's an easy mistake to make. For the record, PROD is just a quickie tag to place when you're positive that it's not a controversial decision -- with PROD, all you do is place the tag, and that's it. ] <small>and his otters</small> • <sup>(]•])</sup> 23:44, 4 March 2008 (UTC)
:Really sorry we are at this stage, really, I used to have a high esteem of administrators and Misplaced Pages community rule and I still hope this faith in Misplaced Pages will be restored, maybe today, maybe tomorrow, maybe in a few years. I have patience and perseverance. --] 17:48, 21 November 2006 (UTC)


==Kudos on your R1a Weasal catch==
==White people==
Is there any way I can talk you into coming back to work on this article? The fewer educated people we have on it, the easier it is to lose ground due to the 3RR rule.-] 20:09, 21 November 2006 (UTC)


Just letting you know that I agree and support your decision to remove that info from the ] article. Plese also take a moment to visit my talk page and leave some thoughts on the current state of geo-genetic info and how its being used on Misplaced Pages. I'm trying to build a consensus on the proper use of that info. Thanks.] (]) 18:17, 7 March 2008 (UTC)Geog1
:I wish I could, Psychohistorian, but I can't as I have been gagged by an administrator who considers I am something of a "systematic personal attacker", no matter I had no complaints before.
:Honestly, I suggest you to take a break and leave the article to Stormfront for a while. You can always retake it later, nominate the article for deletion, open an RfC, etc.
:Do not violate the 3RR please. It's better to bear a bad article than to be blocked on unquestionable grounds as that.
:But personally I am quitting it for mental health. I have more than enough with appealing my unjust block and other areas that interest me more than a non-existent race. Maybe, if my appeal succeeds, and after a loooong recess, I might retake it. But not right now. Sorry. --] 20:33, 21 November 2006 (UTC)


== The actions of user Epf ==
::I agree with Sugaar. Leave it a month or so and wingnuts will have forgotten all about it. Doesn't mean they won't be back in the future though. The ] article is also full of racist shite. ] 04:02, 23 November 2006 (UTC)


Hello Sugaar! We seem to have a problem with ] - he insists in saying that the Celtiberians were part of the ], and has already been reverted several times by me and ]. His rationale is that they are a mix of Celts and Iberians, I presume. This editor seems to have a view of ethnicity based strongly on ancestry (or what he supposed the ancestry to be). He also tried to say that other eventually hispano-celts were Celtiberians (namely in ]), as you very well konw since you were the one that reverted him. From other discussion I had with him and from the debate he started in French people (were not a single other editor agreed with him!) I reckon that this might be a subtle and disguised racialist view of some sort. I do not know what is he trying to accomplish. We have to look out for him. Cheers! ] (]) 08:37, 8 March 2008 (UTC)
:::I saw how someone involved in that article also placed a PA warn on your page and on someone's else too. Is that Afrocentric racism or Eurocentric one? Just curious.


There is no problem actually other than how I have noticed your own original research and POV which has ''no solid references'' in various articles on the peoples of Iberia. I am ''not'' a "racialist" and this has nothing to do with ethnicity being most often based strongly on ancestry or common descent. ''Few people would deny this'' and in fact Ogre, I had presumed you agreed with much of this ? Actually on the French people article, there were two other users who agreed with me if you noticed, plus no one really disagreed with me in the manner which Alun did (including yourself). Judging by your edits (and Sugaar's), I think you are the one who would in fact be disguised "racialists" pushing your own POV and improperly entering sources and images which are based mostly on your own opinions. There are very few scholars who deny that the culture of the Iberians spread across Iberia and most consider the Lustianians and others (minus the Aquitanians and Basques) to be ]. The Celtiberians were an Iberian people who had mixed with elements of Celtic culture, but it ''also incorporated aspects of Iberian culture'' and descent, hence CeltIBERIAN. Ciao, ] (]) 09:09, 8 March 2008 (UTC)
::::Don't know, but they claim it was a "stable article" untill someone (me and ]) "vandalised" it. I replied than I stand by all my edits and that if they want to take it further I will be happy to. They put themselves in a very poor position by not ] and by calling obviously respectable edits ]. It is easily demonstrated that this was not vandalism. So I told them to stop trying to intimidate other good faith editors with meaningless threats. To be honest the Black people article is a joke, and I guess it's Eurocentric racism, judging by the way ] and ]'s work is used. Rushton seems to be a non-expert (a psychologist not an anthropologist or biologist) and also does not represent even a tiny minority POV regarding human origins (so I don't think even the NPOV policy applies to his work). According to him Africans "branched" from the human "evolutionary tree" earlier, and therefore are less "advanced" because evolution is "progressive". Like there is a "progressive" branch and a "regressive" branch of the "evolutionary tree"? How can this ] be construed as ]? It's just racism ] as science, like so much other crap written about "race and intelligence". To my knowledge humans have evolved (speciated) once, and only once, so how can there be evolutionary differences between human "populations"? If he means there is a different "selection pressure" in different parts of the world, then that is correct, but it only applies to certain functional genes that provide an addaptive advantage (like haemoglobin S in malarial regions and dark skin colour in sunny environments). These wingnuts don't seem to understand even the basics of evolution, they don't even know the difference between (natural) selection and evolution. ] 07:38, 23 November 2006 (UTC)


:Hi, guys. I am not any God to solve your issues but I'll see if I can give a hand. In what regards to me: Celtiberians were Celtic-speakers of allegedly (Herodotus?) mixed origin. But that can be said of all other Celtic groups, at least in the Iberian peninsula. If they deserve a mention in the article it should be clear why (i.e. quoting the historical source) and also that they were not ''Iberians'' in the normal sense in any case. --] (]) 04:54, 9 March 2008 (UTC)
:::::Rushton is very racist and Coon sort of pathetic in many ways. I wonder where are Afroamerican Wikipedians? Sadly I don't want to get involved in any more race-related articles in a while: I need to end with the block appeal and also prefer to take a break in those hot issues and push forward Basque knowledge, something I was focused in before all this nightmare.
::Hy Sugaar. What you say is my position entirely. I also believe that the same could probably in fact be said about all the other Celts in Europe. The question here is that this user, Epf, with whom I always tried to dialogue in a reasonale manner and even propossed to work with him in an article about the ] (because he was trying to say that all the Celts in Iberia were Celtiberians and that Celtiberians were Iberians), and also lost some of my time trying to explain a lot of stuff about Iberia too,seem more intent in a non-cooperative, confrontational defense at all cost of his non-sourced ideas regarding the Pre-Roman peoples of the Iberian Peninsula then anything else. If you could come to Iberians I would appreciate. Thanks a lot. By the way I do hope the Genetic History WikiProject does come along - it would be of hep in many articles. Cheers! ] (]) 05:02, 9 March 2008 (UTC)
:::::You may want to mention all these issues in the ]. You may be able to get some help there, not sure. --] 17:29, 23 November 2006 (UTC)
:::As you might have seem, Epf insists on adding the Baleares to the Iberians, but its articles on the Spanish and Catalan wikipedias say nothing about that - what can you tell about it? Thanks. ] (]) 05:18, 9 March 2008 (UTC)
I have not yet been able to check in depth the controversial article (I am right now immerse in another even more controversial dispute - en fin) but, regarding the Balearic islands, Ibiza and Formentera are one thing and the Baleares proper (Majorca and Minorca) are another:
*The Pitiusas (Ibiza and Formentera) were in the post-Aragarian cultural area after c.1300 BCE and later under direct Phoenician influence (they even estabilished a colony there). I doubt they can be considered typical Iberians though hey must be related nevertheless.
*The Baleares proper seem to have been a world apart but there's not much information anyhow. The Talayotic period (late Megalithism apparently original from Corsica) ended c. 700 BCE and my manual doesn't mention the islands after that. A couple of maps show findings in Majorca, near modern Palma, first of Urnfield burials (in line what you can find in other Eastern areas: isolated burials) and then some Phocean findings. That's all. They are never mentioned in relation with Iberians or Iberian culture. I guess that, unless other evidence is provided (and remember that the evidence must be provided by the one making the claim), they should be considered a separate group.
In this regard, it must be mentioned that my manual says that the rich Iberian culture surely exerted attraction for the peoples of the interior and mentions the case of the Celtiberians as most typical and best documented. He seems to imply that Celtiberian were Iberized Celts and not vice-versa (though, of course, it can be argued that, first, native "proto-Iberians" were Celtizied anyhow). --] (]) 06:26, 9 March 2008 (UTC)


== WikiProject Human Genetic History draft and vote ==
:::::Btw, why do you think ] is so biased? Because it shows a too US-centered vision of "blackness"? I've taken a quick look and it doesn't seem outrageous overall. But of course, I may be missing something. --] 18:46, 23 November 2006 (UTC)


I created a ]; feel free to go to it and flesh it out. Also, given that there has been some comments about starting a task force inside of an existing WikiProject vs. a full-blown project, I've started ] on the WikiProject proposal page. –&nbsp;]&nbsp;<sup>(]&nbsp;·&nbsp;])</sup> 00:27, 9 March 2008 (UTC)
:::::::The black people article is almost a carbon copy of what is taught in American "black studies" university curricula and was mainly written by American blacks with an agenda to push. It would have been much more extreme if some African blacks had not fought desperately against some of what they wanted to put in there. It might sound contradictory, but the white racist part and pseudoscience part of the black people article suits the American black agenda of a certain segment of "politically correct" black attitude. The results that show that a separate global black race does not exist are denied with a vengeance, because that means black people do not have power. They accept all the parts of the theory that claim they are a separate race, and deny all the parts of the theory selectively that claim they are an inferior race. It is pretty interesting, from a sociological perspective.--] 13:03, 27 November 2006 (UTC)


== More than just a little stupid ==
== ] ==


Sugaar, WRT your insinuations over at AN/I, it would be desirable if you did your homework. There may be a long story behind all this, and you will not be expected to dig deep into every imaginable archive, but why don't you just ask anybody with a few months of experience in this place? Bishzilla is Bishonen's alternative account, and Bishapod is Bishzilla's (sounds confusing? It isn't. All these accounts are in the hand of the same person). Nobody has ever tried to cover up anything about that. Furthermore there is no reason to believe that Yomangan(i) is a sockpuppet of that same person, as s/he has explained to you. And lastly, if you think Checkuser is an appropriate tool in such a harmless situation, kindly read the pertinent policies before making demands on others' time with these ill-founded requests. Please. ] (]) 19:09, 9 March 2008 (UTC)
Per your request at ], I have opened a request for comment on the incidents surrounding the block you are disputing. Please add any evidence or discussion you would like to the Response section at ]. Thanks. ] <sup>]</sup> 02:25, 22 November 2006 (UTC)


:You may be right - or not. I really don't know what to think. Why do Biszhilla and Fishapod talk the same unusual "slang", for instance. Would I be admin, I'd probably look at the issue more in depth.
:You are wikilawyering. You have included things that happened long before the dispute began and after the block took place. Logically it will take me some time to gather all the info to reply to your far-fetched accusations.
:The case is why are you writing here with an IP identity? Why would anybody try to hide under multiple accounts. Maybe there's a good reason but, since Bishapod/Little Stupid intervened in apparent bad faith, I would like to know '''exactly''' what is being cooked here.
:You should better accept that you have trespassed the limits of policy and that you have taken sides in a dispute where you, as administrator, had the duty of remaining neutral. It's normal that I don't trust you at this point. What is not so normal is that you admit no fault.
:And in any case, who are you? I find it terribly annoying this game of anonymity. I seriously doubt it is in the spirit of Misplaced Pages - not sure abut the letter. Definitively it doesn't go with my character: I like things clear. --] (]) 06:44, 10 March 2008 (UTC)
:I mean: I must have some part of reason even if small, partial or whatever. You admit nothing. I have apologized, I have admitted my errors (but you still use them against me), but you admit not a single piece of fault, not a single shadow of doubt, you are apparently the most perfect administrator ever: unable to commit a single error. Obviously that's not true. --] 12:51, 22 November 2006 (UTC)


::That is fine and well and understandable. I will just say that I have reasons of my own to stay anonymous (there ''are'' horourable reasons, such as outspoken opinions that are not acceptable among people who know your username and know you personally), I have not been involved in these things and have not edited the pages discussed on AN/I. It would be entirely understandable if you found my behaviour sneaky, but I will just ask you to accept my explanation. ] (]) 07:18, 10 March 2008 (UTC)
::Hi Sugaar, I would agree that in this instance, Shell's involvement has not met the standards expected for a non-involved admin. Regarding your alleged personal attacks, I would suggest the essay ] advises that your conduct didn't constitute a violation of policy. Also, help is available from the ] regarding disputes such as this. ] 15:03, 25 November 2006 (UTC)
:::Hi, Addhoc. I really appreciate your interest as well as that from other uninvolved people such as Vercellor. I think your independent comments actually support my case because, whatever I've done wrong, my main point is that there are two sides to a dispute of this nature and that the involved administrator has not been neutral, whatever her reasons.
:::I've already considered to consult the AMA but I think I can manage with the procedure. The only thing it could help would be if they could persude Shell to step down from here pedestal and correct her errors, something that doesn't seem likely. I fear this will end in ArbCom as all the other procedures are being useless and, really, the case is more than ready for that stage. --] 19:26, 25 November 2006 (UTC)


:::Ok. I'll give you the benefit of doubt. But it's clear that all is very unclear. Are you the one behind Little Stupid/Bishapod? I don't think so because your tone is different, more conciliatory. But you seem to know about this issue more than I do in any case.
== ArbCom questions for Paul August ==
:::Would this presumpt sock/alt account not have intervened in an edit conflict (very undesirable but something I that has been imposed upon me), nothing of all that would have ever come to light - as I would not have needed to research about Little Stupid's real identity, with all those branchings leading to possibly other users.
:::If you want to give me a confidential explanation, please feel free to drop me an email. --] (]) 07:31, 10 March 2008 (UTC)


::::No, I am not Little Stupid or Bishapod, nor any of the other users discussed, just someone who happens to have witnessed the goings-on recently. I see no evidence that there is anything more than inside jokes going on here. You may of course request further elucidation over at WP:AN, but honestly, I would not be extremely optimistic about that. ] (]) 16:53, 10 March 2008 (UTC)
Hi Sugaar. I've ]. Thanks for asking. ] ] 19:49, 22 November 2006 (UTC)


:::What need research LS real identity? What business of Sugaar's? Little Stupid make good edit on ], is all you need care about. Note: Little Stupid tell you several times that '''Thatcher is CheckUser''' who have already CheckUsered LS real identity. See how CheckUser Thatcher not worried about Stupid identity? Why you worry about it all the time? ''Comment on content, not on the contributor.'' ] '']'' 21:51, 10 March 2008 (UTC).
::Thanks, I saw it and it was one of the answers I liked most. I have three or four candidates in mind by now and you are among them. --] 22:22, 22 November 2006 (UTC)
::::Please use your real identity and speak proper English. It is not funny but rather ofensive that you treat people like that. I really can't believe that you are being tolerated this abuse.
Please, do not spam my user page with multiple identies and babble. It's really annoying and could fall under ] and ]. You may think you are funny but... you aren't. --] (]) 15:36, 12 March 2008 (UTC)
:] is a longstanding and first-rate admin and article writer who has the full trust of the community. Unfortunately, she is mad at Misplaced Pages (or parts of it anyway) right now and not contributing as she used to. ] is Bish's very well-known and fully accepted sock-puppet for having fun and generating incredible hilarity. ] is Bishzilla's sock so that Bishzilla could have a sock too. More fun ensues. ] is another name for Bishapod.
:Literally almost everyone knows who the owner is when these names show up and no-one is really going to object. Bishonen is well aware of what she's doing. It takes a while to learn these things, for sure. The best bet with Little Stupid or Bishapod is probably to offer them a plush toy, or a puppy to give their master Bishzilla. (Bishzilla nice monster, not eat little Franamax for telling this please) If we can get Bishzilla to eat the puppy, she might ask her master Bishonen pretty-please come back to Misplaced Pages. Does that help? ] (]) 00:55, 11 March 2008 (UTC)
::I don't know what you understand as "the community" but she doesn't have my trust since she uses sockpuppets to intervene in content disputes and somehow this is tolerated by administrators, who close the case on the pretext of "frivolity". You know I am right.
::You cannot claim that what a handful of people consider valid is what "everyone knows". Misplaced Pages has maybe millions of contributors: a clique is not the community. The community is all who make Wikipdia possible - and obviously most have never heard (luckily) of this sockpupeetering abuse by an administrator.
::And I don't find it funny in any case. Just stupid. But I don't care about that as long as it's not used to intervene in a content dispute (or to spam my userpage with Yoda-like babble). Once she starts with that, she is fully in the case of using sockpuppets for illegitimate purposes.
::I know that ] states that LS's (and therefore Bishonen's, if what you say is true) actuation is a breach of policy. Some administrators may be wrong in their undue leniency in this case.
::I am not going to play that stupid game you say: this is Misplaced Pages not Freakypedia, please! We are editing an encyclopedia, not playing games that I can only describe as schizoid emotional blackmail and freaky childish games.
::Let's be serious: there are other places than Misplaced Pages to play your strange games, really. --] (]) 15:36, 12 March 2008 (UTC)


==Edit warring==
== Basque Swadesh list and "lesser-used languages" ==
I'd suggest discussion and not edit warring on ]. No consensus for the edits you reverted to. You've been around, so I'm sure you're familiar with ] and ]. ] <small>]</small> 07:12, 10 March 2008 (UTC)
:There was no consensus for your additions certainly. That's why I reverted you: you are decaffeinating that most interesting essay and you could at least step down to the talk page to discuss those radical edits you tried to make. --Sugaar (talk) 07:16, 10 March 2008 (UTC)
::Um, they weren't "my" additions, they were additions by another editor; . Get your facts straight before you start making accusations and edit warring. ] <small>]</small> 07:19, 10 March 2008 (UTC)


== Map for Pre-Roman Iberia ==
It appears to have been transwikied here: ], and the Basque list on its own is still at ]. Is that what you were looking for? --]<sup>]</sup> 20:25, 23 November 2006 (UTC)


Hello Sugaar! Thnks for your input regarding the question of the maps for Pre-Roman Iberia. I'm quite busy right now, so I won't be able to give it its due attention. But I do want to pick up on your suggestion "to positivize this discussion and draw an even better map". That was my objective all along. I have no special preference for the map I made, I just thought it better then that other one you yourselve said it was losy. I'll get back to you as soon as I can. Cheers! ] (]) 06:39, 11 March 2008 (UTC)
:Yes that was what I was looking for, thanks. Really I couldn't find it but no wonder as you (or whoever) have hidden it under such title "lesser used European languages", sounds offensive. I looked into Iberian languages but only Romance languages were there.
:Anyhow it was in order to fix a link. Shouldn't a redirect or soft redirect have been left in place?
:Guess that you already removed the request for undeletion, didn't you? --] 23:55, 23 November 2006 (UTC)
::I don't see how "lesser used" is offensive. Anyway, you can always argue for a different division/name with the editors at Wiktionary. No, I didn't do any part of the transwiki myself; you'd have to look at the history of the relevant pages on Wiktionary for that.
::We don't leave soft redirects in the encyclopaedia namespace following transwikis; so far as I know the only soft redirects we have are in projectspace, at places like ].
::For future searching you might find Google more useful than MediaWiki's inbuilt search function - I found the Swadesh lists fairly easily by searching for <code>site:en.wiktionary.org swadesh basque</code>. --]<sup>]</sup> 17:13, 24 November 2006 (UTC)
:::The expression "lesser-used languages" has become current in some European circles, basically I think as a bureaucratic ("euro-cratic"?) term meant to be equivalent to "minority languages" (with all the vaguenesses and defects inherent in the latter term). The expression was of course consecrated by the creation in 1982 of EBLUL, the ]. Whatever one may think of the term for stylistic reasons or whatever (I myself consider it to be bad English, but ah well), I don't think the people who use it do so with any intent to be offensive. I notice by the way that in the wikipedia ] redirects to ], showing that some other Wikipedians also interpret the term this way. --] 18:20, 24 November 2006 (UTC)


== Barnstars survey ==
I will try to keep up with things but I am a very busy guy, if there are any major things that you need help on just send me a message or something. Also thanks for the message. Joe


Hi Sugaar. I'm running a small survey about wikipedian barnstars. If you have the time, I would really appreciate you taking a look and participating. The survey can be found . Thank you! ] (]) 02:00, 12 March 2008 (UTC)
==A Plea for Reason and Sanity in the editing of the White People article==


:Thanks for the feedback. I received a few replies such as yours, saying that the information is simply not applicable to the way barnstars are given out In our analysis, we've seen a few patterns to barnstar texts -- there are those that target very specific work or actions and therefore can't be captured with rudimentary statistics, and others that are very generic, targeting status attainment or long patterns of work that can be easily gleamed from a person's edit stats. The poll is unfortunately limited, but coming up with a controlled experiment/survey for understanding barnstar granting behaviour is rather challenging. Thanks again for participating and giving me comments. ] (]) 18:01, 12 March 2008 (UTC)
Sugaar you may or may not be sockpuppeteering but you have and continue to use slanderous language as a means of communicating your disapproval of those users who happen to think differently than you on any number of unrelated subjects. Everytime you accuse someone of racism or of belonging to what you call a fringe or antisocial group—without any evidence whatsoever—it is you yourself who end up appearing fanatical and extreme in the eyes of moderate and temperate users. I strongly suggest that you tone down your hyperbolic rhetoric and make an effort, however painful, to join those seeking to reach actual understanding and consensus. I say this with the respect that I feel should be accorded to any and all who come here truly seeking to contribute and to learn in good faith.--] 05:06, 27 November 2006 (UTC)
:Sorry, I'm not sure what you are talking about exactly. I have disengaged myself from the White people article as I couldn't bear the pressure anymore. I am just interested now in the review of the unjust block derived from the dispute in that article.
:As far as I can say, you are talking about the past. Still defending fiercely ]'s viewpoints and long outdated and discredited Nordicist theories by means of unilateral reviews seems quite sufficient evidence to me, don't know if it is to you. --] 20:45, 27 November 2006 (UTC)
:And in any case I am not sockpuppeting. That's absolutely false. I have a single static cable IP and could not do it even if I wanted to without being detected easily.
:And anyhow, I have some ethics. My defects seem to be excess of honesty, not twisted manipulation. I like to discuss things plainly, what is what ha caused my problems: excess of frank speech. I speak for myself: I don't need "ghosts" - much less to vandalize around. --] 21:09, 27 November 2006 (UTC)


:By the way, I forgot to ask you as to how you would go about deciding whether 'someone is doing a good job'? If the statistics are noise, what information about an editor is useful to you in awarding barnstars? ] (]) 23:20, 12 March 2008 (UTC)
==White People==
It is interesting to me that the black people article and the white people article are both suffering from somewhat similar problems; control by extremists who want to push certain agendas.--] 12:53, 27 November 2006 (UTC)
:I'm not involved in the White people article anymore because I was subject to premeditated wikilawyerist attack that resulted in a block. So I decided to disengage. I have only taken a brief look at the Black people article and have not a clear opinion, yet it seems some people there are resorting to the same type of aggresive wikilawyering tactics trying to displace other users with wider/different ideas.
:Sadly it seems that people with racialist POVs (to put it smoothly) take such articles as heir pet projects. The only solution I see is to delete them and make them disambiguation pages to more precise topics such as classical anthropometric races, race in census, pygmentation, etc. But it's not a solution that seems likely to find strong support. --] 20:51, 27 November 2006 (UTC)
::On one hand it is disappointing, but on the other side, I am learning a lot more about how people think. I am also thinking about what I realize now is the main issue here: the mathematical issue of genetic metrics.--] 22:43, 27 November 2006 (UTC)
:::Genetics can be a good tool to asess diversity in humans but see what happened in White people: all genetic evidence linking Western Eurasians/Caucasoids was flatly ignored by people with stubborn Nordicist ideas and a clear will of beating the rest by any means at reach. --] 22:47, 27 November 2006 (UTC)
::Yes and the same thing is happening in the black people article. But the only reason I was at the black people article was to try to keep people calm on the talk page so they could actually do real work instead of tearing each other apart. I personally have not edited the article very much at all. Most of it is not real science and is sort of nonsense, as far as I am concerned. Nevertheless, I have learned a lot about these human dynamics, some of which I never would have guessed existed before this. The good thing is that it has directed me to an interesting place to do some personal research. I really do not care much about race; it is not interesting to me from a research standpoint. But metrics are one of the things I am interested in, and all of a sudden I realize that this is a great application of different sorts of metrics and in fact we are working in some sort of Hilbert space and there is information theory involved etc. This is good stuff.--23:22, 27 November 2006 (UTC)
:::Yes, there's a lot of maths involved in genetics (and also antropometry, what is nevertheless somewhat old fashioned and confuse). I' not that good at that: I think better visually but I am very interested in antropology and genetics, as well as in archaeology (prehistory specially). --] 23:31, 27 November 2006 (UTC)


==Speedy deletion of ]==
== Thanks a lot! ==
] A tag has been placed on ] requesting that it be speedily deleted from Misplaced Pages. This has been done under ], because it is available as a bit-for-bit identical copy on the ] under the same name, or all references to the image on Misplaced Pages have been updated to point to the title used at Commons.


If you think that this notice was placed here in error, you may contest the deletion by adding <code>{{tl|hangon}}</code> to '''the top of ]''' (just below the existing speedy deletion or "db" tag), coupled with adding a note on ''']''' explaining your position, but be aware that once tagged for ''speedy'' deletion, if the article meets the criterion it may be deleted without delay. Please do not remove the speedy deletion tag yourself, but don't hesitate to add information to the article that would would render it more in conformance with Misplaced Pages's policies and guidelines. Lastly, please note that if the article does get deleted, you can contact ] to request that a copy be emailed to you. ] (]) 22:54, 9 April 2008 (UTC)<!-- Template:Db-nowcommons-notice --> <!-- Template:Db-csd-notice-custom -->
You deserve a history one... I'll find it soon. ] 16:16, 27 November 2006 (UTC)
:You're welcome. I thought it was about time I gave one of those and I really think you do deserve it. Enjoy, --] 20:17, 27 November 2006 (UTC)


==Speedy deletion of ]==
--] 22:56, 28 November 2006 (UTC)=
] A tag has been placed on ] requesting that it be speedily deleted from Misplaced Pages. This has been done under ], because it is available as a bit-for-bit identical copy on the ] under the same name, or all references to the image on Misplaced Pages have been updated to point to the title used at Commons.


If you think that this notice was placed here in error, you may contest the deletion by adding <code>{{tl|hangon}}</code> to '''the top of ]''' (just below the existing speedy deletion or "db" tag), coupled with adding a note on ''']''' explaining your position, but be aware that once tagged for ''speedy'' deletion, if the article meets the criterion it may be deleted without delay. Please do not remove the speedy deletion tag yourself, but don't hesitate to add information to the article that would would render it more in conformance with Misplaced Pages's policies and guidelines. Lastly, please note that if the article does get deleted, you can contact ] to request that a copy be emailed to you. ] (]) 00:48, 10 April 2008 (UTC)<!-- Template:Db-nowcommons-notice --> <!-- Template:Db-csd-notice-custom -->
== Basque matters ==
: Yes, with enough "disprovements" an article can become truly "pessimal".


==Speedy deletion of ]==
Could I ask you to have a look at ] and indicate whether you would be open to some sort of mediation? After an initial suggestion of arbitration (which I pointed out would not be appropriate) ] is proposing that ] (if he is available) and I try to mediate between you and he on the ] article. I guess it wouldn't be strictly a mediation, because Error and I each also certainly have our own views on the topic, but it might be good to try to cool down the conflict between you and Mountolive, resort more to the discussion page, and see if with a little more involvement by people whose views fall between yours and Mountolive's we can move toward a more consensual and stable article. Let me know there what you think. - ] | ] 18:34, 28 November 2006 (UTC)
] A tag has been placed on ] requesting that it be speedily deleted from Misplaced Pages. This has been done under ], because it is available as a bit-for-bit identical copy on the ] under the same name, or all references to the image on Misplaced Pages have been updated to point to the title used at Commons.
:I'm fully open to mediation (either formal or informal, I also suggested RfC) and I have all the time insisted that other more neutral editors take a greater role in the ETA article, as it's obvious that while the situation remains prolarized between Mountolive and myself, it will not advance much (though the discussion is likely to remain very lively). I realize that you and Error may have other priorities anyhow, but I am open to all sort of DR in the benefit of the article. --] 22:56, 28 November 2006 (UTC)


If you think that this notice was placed here in error, you may contest the deletion by adding <code>{{tl|hangon}}</code> to '''the top of ]''' (just below the existing speedy deletion or "db" tag), coupled with adding a note on ''']''' explaining your position, but be aware that once tagged for ''speedy'' deletion, if the article meets the criterion it may be deleted without delay. Please do not remove the speedy deletion tag yourself, but don't hesitate to add information to the article that would would render it more in conformance with Misplaced Pages's policies and guidelines. Lastly, please note that if the article does get deleted, you can contact ] to request that a copy be emailed to you. ] (]) 00:50, 10 April 2008 (UTC)<!-- Template:Db-nowcommons-notice --> <!-- Template:Db-csd-notice-custom -->
== DerStormtroper ==
Don't worry about him, I'll take care of it.--] 19:51, 28 November 2006 (UTC)


==Speedy deletion of ]==
:Thanks for your interest, really. --] 23:05, 28 November 2006 (UTC)
] A tag has been placed on ] requesting that it be speedily deleted from Misplaced Pages. This has been done under ], because it is available as a bit-for-bit identical copy on the ] under the same name, or all references to the image on Misplaced Pages have been updated to point to the title used at Commons.


If you think that this notice was placed here in error, you may contest the deletion by adding <code>{{tl|hangon}}</code> to '''the top of ]''' (just below the existing speedy deletion or "db" tag), coupled with adding a note on ''']''' explaining your position, but be aware that once tagged for ''speedy'' deletion, if the article meets the criterion it may be deleted without delay. Please do not remove the speedy deletion tag yourself, but don't hesitate to add information to the article that would would render it more in conformance with Misplaced Pages's policies and guidelines. Lastly, please note that if the article does get deleted, you can contact ] to request that a copy be emailed to you. ] (]) 16:26, 10 April 2008 (UTC)<!-- Template:Db-nowcommons-notice --> <!-- Template:Db-csd-notice-custom -->
== Okay, I've had enough ==


==Edits on the Basque People page==
Sugaar: I am a linguist and a specialist of thirty years' standing in the field of Basque language description, the author of several books on the Basque language, recognised in the Basque Country as a proficient speaker and writer of Basque (I translate professionally both into and out of Basque and have even taught Basque grammar to native speakers), a corresponding member of the Basque Language Academy since 2002 and an active member of the Academy's grammar commission since about 1980. Besides my own acquired knowledge of Basque, my statements are generally supported by the rather extensive bibliography at my disposal.
Sugaar, could you take a look at the discussion regarding some deletes by ] on the ] page and tell me what you think? Eskerrik asko! ] (]) 15:28, 16 May 2008 (UTC)


:Ok. --] (]) 19:03, 16 May 2008 (UTC)
You are by your own admission a student of the language at intermediate level. When you quote a reference to "prove" your point and tell me I am wrong about something, it is from a non-authoritative dictionary which, I have already pointed out to you, was never meant to be comprehensive and became completely out of date about twenty years ago. I have not seen you make a single statement with the slightest hint of deference or tentativeness, you speak as if laying down the law.


::Thanks for your input! I think we can agree on some common ground, the 2 sections in questions were a bit oddly worded after all. ...so much to do and so little time to do it. I wonder if Britannica has editors as diligent as wiki ; ) ] (]) 22:00, 16 May 2008 (UTC)
Now the wonderful thing about Misplaced Pages is that it gives opportunities for people like you and me to work together, combine our efforts, discuss issues and learn from each other and from the experience, in the knowledge that (in the best of cases, anyway) all this is also ultimately helping other people in their quest for knowledge. Misplaced Pages asks nobody what their qualifications are and makes everybody everybody else's equal.


:::Yah, the entries can surely be improved with other stuff and maybe there's no need to include all those quotes as such. But what Narsil is admittedly doing is crusading against Gimbutas and anything that sounds to "feminism". I guess that if he's doing the same all around the Wiki, he will have soon his personal page full of warnings. --] (]) 04:23, 17 May 2008 (UTC)
However, we seem to have a problem, don't we. Apparently I cannot say anything about Basque without you jumping in and saying that it's all wrong and producing your own theory of how it is. And I cannot point out a mistake that you make on the subject without your rejecting my opinions out of hand and telling me that it is the other way around. Since you don't seem to listen to, or else fail to assimilate, the reasons I give for your being wrong about something, we are starting to just go round and round in circles as you repeat the same mistakes. On one occasion you even brought in someone from the Basque Misplaced Pages to say who was right (about the correctness of an example sentence in the article on Polysynthesis), yet when confirmation of my assessment was given, you seemingly ignored it because you still haven't made a move to withdraw the incorrect example. (Don't expect me to; I'm not getting involved in any edit war with you.) You tell me you are learning Basque but I don't know from whom, because the last thing you seem to be interested in is learning from someone who is able to put you on the right track and willing to do so with the very best of intentions, I assure you. People who know a lot more Basque than you often come to me for advice...


LOL it'll be his own fault. Mind, the Gimbutas quotes do sound a bit new-age. She could have been a little less populist and more scientific but then, she wanted the book to sell. ] (]) 15:56, 6 June 2008 (UTC)
Perhaps you enjoy this situation, but I do not. I will not play cat-and-mouse with you, because I have better things to do. I have a lot of expertise to offer Misplaced Pages on many issues related to the Basque language, but if every offering I make turns into a silly argument with someone who wants to just bicker for the sake of it, well I just haven't got the time or patience. If you like I'll just bow out and let you carry on playing at being the English Misplaced Pages's "authority" on all things Basque. ''Tú mismo.''


==Mural art map==
I complement you (''zorionak'') on your efforts to learn Basque and I encourage you to carry on. I also think you are quite good at developing linguistic arguments, so congratulations. What you seem to be lacking is a sufficiently developed sense of when you are right and when you don't have enough information to really know what you're talking about - or the ability or disposition to incorporate the information you are missing when someone takes the trouble to provide it.
Just something that crossed my mind if you ever have a week to spare - I think it would be interesting if you could overlay your map with known locations of cave systems. You know, atm it looks like there are significant clusters but while looking at it it just crossed my mind that it might just be down to the fact there are no caves elsewhere. Just a thought though! ] (]) 15:56, 6 June 2008 (UTC)


== Cannabis Culture & Cost ==
If you have anything reconciliatory to say, I'm all ears. If not, please don't bother. If you want us to work together, rather than get into fist fights, then let us do so: you will find me very willing. I offer you my hand and assure you of my willingness to work together with you, if that's what you want. But if my interpretation of what Misplaced Pages is is right, it is not a shouting match in a Basque tavern. --] 08:16, 30 November 2006 (UTC)


Eleven years ago The Ottawa Citizen published four consecutive Editorials in four days calling for the legalization of Cannabis. Calling the Editor to commend him for such bold action, it was suggested an article be submitted for payment if published on the Op-Ed page. On submission, the Editor said, "Now we're going to have to shit or get of the pot."
:This doesn't make sense: I am not going into any fist fight. I just question what is not sufficiently obvious. In fact I recognized that what you said about sorginak made sense, just that I could not source it and you were not documenting it either.
:And I don't like your attitude anyhow: you may be a respected scholar (I take your word on that) but I don't know you personally nor I have read any of your books, so for me you are like anyone: give evidence of your claims if you can. Thanks.
:Aditionally, that I disagree with some of what you or others may say, is no obstacle for you to make the adequate corrections, hopefully with suficient documentation. You don't need my permision to do that (obviously). --] 08:30, 30 November 2006 (UTC)


It was published as a Letter To The Editor with the heart and guts edited out so that no reader would have a clear perspective or understanding of the issue. If you're interested, you can read the article in the discussion here http://en.wikipedia.org/Ray_Joseph_Cormier and maybe comment on the images in the article. Peace
Okay, I will give you the benefit of the doubt. However I do see a problem, in that I'm not sure whether the discussion page of an article on Basque witches is the right place for me to offer you (I don't know who else would ask for it) documentary evidence that ''sortu'' means 'be born' in Basque, so how about I tell you here instead? If this is an issue that only concerns you and me, then we don't need to force ourselves on an uninterested audience, surely?


==Vitoria-Gasteiz==
This is the relevant part of the discussion on that page, copied over to here:
Need your comment on this ]. Milesker. ] <small>]</small> 20:11, 8 August 2008 (UTC)
I guess we need your support. ] <small>]</small> 16:40, 10 August 2008 (UTC)


== Neolithic migrations map ==
:::::*''Sor(tu)'':create. To be born is ''jaio''. --] 20:41, 6 November 2006 (UTC)


::::::I have to correct you there, Sugaar. ''Jaio'' is the word for 'to be born' in western Basque, but in eastern Basque it is indeed ''sortu''. --] 18:33, 29 November 2006 (UTC) Hi. nice map. I wanted to know where you encountered the term ''thessalio-Danubian'' group in relation to the movement of farmers from within the Balkans. ? ] (]) 02:33, 14 October 2008 (UTC)


:It's an old map. I coined the term myself, I think. Balcano-Danubian would be more correct surely. The use of "Thesalian" refers to this Greek region being aat the origin, apparently, of Balcanic Neolithic. But nowadays I'd rather use "Balcanic".
:::::::What "eastern dialects"? The Bi Mila dictionary, funily enough, gives only the sense of "adormecerse los sentidos" (not sure how to translate that to English) and ''gortu'' (to deafen). Yet to create is translated as ''kreatu, sortu, egin'', while to be born is translated '''only''' as jaio. They may be missing something though.
:::::::I see sense to the equation create = be born = give birth = midwives = sorginak = akelarre = Mari and Sugaar creating the storms in their cave... but I have no evidence myself that sortu means to be born or to give birth. It's logical though. --] 03:50, 30 November 2006 (UTC)


:Glad you liked it anyhow. --] (]) 02:56, 14 October 2008 (UTC)
I already said I don't think you should be appealing to that dictionary as evidence for this kind of discussion, but anyway... Since you are still quoting it, I must point out that because of the way Kintana chose to cite verbs (and order them alphabetically), he has placed two different verbs whose participles are both ''sortu'' on different pages, since he has analysised them as ''sor(tu)'' (alphabetised as ''sor'') and ''sort(u)'' (alphabetised as ''sort'') respectively. The one we are interested in is ''sort(u)'', but you have been looking at ''sor(tu)'', hence the other meanings. If you look on the next page you will find:
'''Sort(u): 1''' concebir, -ido. '''2''' nacer, -ido. '''3''' brotar, -ado. '''4''' inventar, crear, -ado.
If you look at a map of the major Basque dialect divisions you will notice that they range from west to east. By "western dialects", without further qualification as here, I mean what I seem to mean: the ones further to the west as opposed to the ones further to the east. And by "eastern dialects" I mean the opposite, of course. In the context I don't think it was necessary to go into exactly which dialects use which verb for 'to be born', since the relevant point I was making was that you had no reason to correct the previous contributor to the discussion who had (correctly) glossed ''sortu'' as 'nacer'. I could have said: "You're wrong, Sugaar, ''sortu'' does mean 'be born'", but instead I mentioned the dialectal issue, saying that although in some (western) dialects it is the case that 'be born' is ''jaio'', there are other (eastern) dialects in which ''sortu'' is used, thereby suggesting you were "only partly wrong" so to speak. I was trying to be kind. I don't have the books by my side to provide more precise information but I can assure you off the top of my head that ''all'' Basque dialects use ''sortu'' as 'be born' except for the two westernmost major dialects (Gipuzkoan and Bizkaian) where ''jaio'' predominates. Thus ''sortu'' is used in High Navarre, Lapurdi, Low Navarre and Zuberoa. Literary Basque admits both verbs, of course. Furthermore, this use of ''sortu'' is well-known to literate Basques everywhere so should come as no surprise. Since ''even'' your own dictionary confirms this, I don't think it's necessary to provide you with other dictionary references on this occasion (but I can if you insist).


Yeah. I came across the term ''Danube-Morava-Vardar'' river basin complex in a genetics paper. Apparently these farmers might have propagated haplotype E3b across Europe. Cheers ] (]) 21:43, 14 October 2008 (UTC)
You say you don't know whether I am a reputed Basque scholar or not. Is there anything I haven't already told you that I can tell you that could persuade you? --] 09:20, 30 November 2006 (UTC)


:There's actually another focus of (former E3b) in southern Spain, whose early Neolithic may have arrived from North Africa (and later propagated somewhat through the Megalithic macro-cultural network). But you are right for E-V13, that has an apparent "Greek" origin (though it's actually more common among neighbouring Albanians, generally speaking) and it's basically spread through the Balcans and Danubian basin (what basically excludes later Greek maritime colonization). Enjoy. --] (]) 19:06, 15 October 2008 (UTC)
PS If you like, in the future when you want to "ask me for clarification" we could do that on your talk page (or on mine if you prefer), but I don't see the point of subjecting the general public to our discussions unless the place is obviously appropriate for that. Alan --] 09:22, 30 November 2006 (UTC)


:Why don't you keep the discussion in the proper article's talk page? That way you won't only persuade me but also (hopefully) any other editor that may come around in the future. Anyhow, thanks for all that info.
:I don't say I don't know about your reputation: I say that I only know about it from your word and actions. As long as you justify your viewpoints, I really couldn't care less about you being the new Barandiaran or just an anonymous bypasser with good ideas. What I don't like is that attitude of "I say it: it's correct", when the readily available evidence I have doesn't say the same.
:Whatever your credentials, you should explain and/or document your prposals like anyone else and don't take the issues of ] as personal matters.
:Also, for the tone of your first post here, I think that you are more upset at the discussion of ] than about this petty matter on the possible etymology of ].
:In any case, my apologies if I have offended you in any way, what clearly wasn't my intention. --] 21:51, 30 November 2006 (UTC)


Ah, yes. But the focus of E3b in spain is different subclade, and different migration pattern and time from that in the Balkans. Spaniards have the M-78, V-12 clade which might have spread way back , like 15 kYa , possibly via a direct, trans-Meditteranean migration from northern Africa. Another clade, present in variable frequencies, is the m-81 clade- the so-called "Berber" gene reflecting migrations of Moors during Al-Anadalus, as well as Sephardic Jews.
::Sugaar, I'd just like to say that I've met Alan a couple of times (at London Basque Society functions) and you are very fortunate to have someone of his knowledge and experience helping with the Basque articles on the English wikipedia. Among other things, he wrote the first substantial book for English speakers wanting to learn the Basque language, published by the University of Nevada press (the U of Nevada is noted for its department of Basque studies). In an e-mail to me, Larry Trask called it "the best grammar of Basque in any language". I hope you can respect his very valuable contributions and work constructively with him.
::--] 00:40, 1 December 2006 (UTC)


In contrast, Balkan E3b is the M-78, '''V-13'''. Cruciani thinks it originated in Anaolia 10kYa, but expanded and grew within the Balkans, spreading later, c. 5.3 kYa. Its high frequency amongst Albanians is nothing special, just a ], because Albanians have been a small, biologically isolated people throughout history. J2e, is the postulated marker of Greek maritime expansion during Neolithic and Bronze age.
:::Hey, stop it. I do respect him yet I don't have to take his word for everything. He's surely more upset at the issue of ] than the silly discussion on ]'s etymology anyhow, I believe. Else he would not have exploded like he did above.
:::Still, I'm interested about that west/east dialect division I had read nowhere before. So far I thought there were three groups of dialects: western (Bizkaiera), central (most) and eastern (Xiberuera and extinct Erronkera). The "eastern dialects" phrase definitively caught me off guard. Who has suggested that division? And why is the ''Bi Mila'' dictionary so crappy in some aspects. Is the ''Hiru Mila'' any better? --] 04:15, 1 December 2006 (UTC)


Peace.
As I said in my earlier response, I was using "eastern" in an informal sense to mean dialects in the east rather than the west. I don't think that was a real problem in the context because the worst you could have done was to interpret "eastern" in the more restrictive sense you mention (eastern versus central AND western), in which case the truth of my assertion would not be affected (if ''sortu'' = 'be born' is used throughout the eastern half of the Basque-speaking dialect spectrum, then it is also used in the eastern third!).


] (]) 22:54, 15 October 2008 (UTC)
(You are right that the "west - centre - east" division that you cite is sometimes employed in discussions of Basque dialects, rather inappropriately in my opinion because I find this too "centralist": what I suspect it implies is that central Basque is "normal Basque" and normal Basque includes Gipuzkoan Basque (which tends to dominate in modern Basque de facto), whereas Bizkaian Basque falls outside the "central/normal" domain so we call it something else (western). This seems to me to be a Gipuzkoa-centric view of things. But I admit I'm only talking about one point of view here, which happens to be mine (even though I live in Gipuzkoa and speak Basque with a Gipuzkoan "accent" myself, so this is not reflecting some Bizkaian's gripe about Batua being too "giputxi", which is quite another matter).)


:AFAIK all the Iberian E subclades are of North African origin (exception of minor E-V13 traces that must be of Greek or maybe Phoenician origin). But (as I do not believe in the solidity of the conclusions of the Molecular Clock hypothesis, almost always contradictory internally and in regard to archaeology), I doubt those datations you provide are correct. Let's see:
But I think you will find that in current usage in Basque language studies, there also exists a casual tendency to refer to western and eastern Basque, not as rigorous categories but because this east-west perspective makes more sense, both geographically and linguistically, than the north-south (iparralde-hegoalde, "French Basque vs. Spanish Basque") perspective which is perhaps more widespread in the popular mind and, of course, above all, aligned with the current political schema dominating many people's perception of the Basque territorial entity. It is easy enough to see on the map that Basque dialects do not really fall into a dichotomy between "north" and "south" (you know this as well as I do, I'm sure), any more than they are really "French" and "Spanish". North and south only come in at certain lower points in a finer classification, such as the traditional division between northern ("septentrional") and southern ("meridional") High Navarrese dialects, or indeed northern (coastal) and southern (highland) Gipuzkoan, for some features perhaps.)
:There is no evidence whatsoever of any North African migration to Iberia as early as 15,000 BP. The opposite may be true (Iberomaurusian) but should not relate with E clades. Iberian (excluding ]) Upper Paleolithic is a succesion of waves from the North: not just Aurignacian and Gravettian arrived from the North (and ultimately from the East) but also Solutrean (strongly Gravettized in Iberia), Magdalenian and Epipaleolithic cultural waves (Azilian and Tardenoisian derived).
:Instead there is a not popularized (but very real) South Iberian Neolithic that pre-dates Cardium Pottery and that (for lack of any other explanation, cereals and legumes appear already developed: no local evolution certainly) must have arrived from ill-researched North Africa. Relations with North Africa were also rather strong later within the Megalithic macro-culture of the Chalcolithic era, and of course later under Phoenician, Roman and Muslim rule. But I would not agree with claiming all that North African blood in Iberia just to Islamic rule: that's clearly oversimplistic. In fact I think that most of it has Neolithic roots instead (but not Paleolithic - archaeologically "impossible").
:Neolithic was in fact a good moment for founder effects like these because the agriculturalists, even if they assimilated many natives (as is attested by the archaological record, at least in Mediterranean Europe), also had some decisive economical advantage that would make sure that such minority arrivals would become numerous enough to persist through the centuries. In the case of Iberia, certainly this North African founder effect was reinforced later on but it is way too common to be attributed only to recent immigrants, who, as conquerors of farmer peoples, were necesarily a small minority.
:North Africans arrived to Iberia in the Muslim period in relatively large numbers but almost always with privileged status (troops specially), not as farmers, that in the old times were always like 90% of the people. As privileged classes, they also were probably much more likely to emigrate than to accept defeat. While the number of Muslims in Al Andalus was important after several centuries of Emirate and Caliphate, most were local converts, who were then reconverted by grade or force. Of course, Muslim rule must had some genetic impact, I won't deny that, but not necesarily much more than Roman or Carthaginian rule, or than the strong and well attested economic and cultural links in the Chalcolithic or the Neolithic founder effects. The straits were sailed through once and again... since Neolithic (but not before, unless the Iberomaurusian/Oranian can be confirmed as original from Iberia - and only in that case).
:Enjoy, --] (]) 07:58, 18 October 2008 (UTC)


Certainly very interesting. My information was what Cruciani found in his last study. Of course all such studies should be taken with a grain of salt, as the confidence intervals of supposed 'ages' of the haplogroups are so variable that the conclusiosn consequently derived can be very different.I did not state that all "african' blood in Iberia was due to the Moors. Probably ancient migrations from nth Africa are more likely, although the time may be dabatle, as Cruciani's conclusion of 15 kYa apparently does not fit any archaeological evidence. And , yes, ther was an expansion of E3b V-13 from the Balkans to Spain, ? perhaps via Greek colonizers.
You ask me what is wrong with the dictionary you use. I already mentioned earlier that it has changed its name several times. The 2000 one was preceded by "Hiztegia 80", a copy of which I am looking at now, and as I recall it was called something else before that, though the name escapes me at this moment. When I started living in the Basque Country in 1978, it was the dictionary everybody used because there was nothing better, and people were very glad to have it, you could even say that a generation of Basques were "brought up" on Xabier Kintana's dictionary, but that doesn't mean it didn't have its limitations, and we were stuck with those too until something better came along. Personally I was surprised and disappointed that as the newer editions of this dictionary came out (with a new name each time) the opportunity was not taken to give the dictionary's content a thorough revision or, better yet, redesign the whole thing, but that didn't happen; only minor errata or omissions were corrected, but it basically stayed the same. So what did happen eventually is that with time and new resources, other dictionary projects sprang up and resulted in new works which have left Kintana's dictionary so far behind in every respect that it can no longer be seen as a good choice for anyone with a serious interest in Basque. It certainly should not be used by such a keen student as yourself!


:The classical Greek presence in Iberia was limited to a couple of Massalian outposts at the eastern Pyrenean coast. They were active as traders in other areas anyhow. Another epysode of Greek direct influence surely happened in the Middle Bronce Age, when ] culture adopted burialpractices of Mycenaean Greece. But all this Greek influence appears centered in the East, the South at most, and the actual area of greater E-V13 in Iberia is the West (Portugal, Galicia, Asturias). So it may be a Neolithic founder effect arrived with Cardium Pottery - not sure. It's a small clade anyhow. --] (]) 14:51, 23 October 2008 (UTC)
One way to answer the question of what is wrong with this dictionary would be to suggest you open up, say, a copy of the Elhuyar bilingual dictionary and place it side by side with Kintana's, comparing the two. I think that alone should convince you (or anyone), probably better than my words on the subject. But briefly:
*The dictionary is incomplete, especially with respect to the evolution of modern Basque over the last two or three decades.
*It is prescriptive. The dictionary came out when Batua was quite new and people were looking for guidelines. Being prescriptive is not in itself a defect (it's not a criticism), it is just a characterisation of the type of dictionary it is and what it is most useful for (and what not). It is important to understand that it is in no sense a historical dictionary, but also only partially reflects present-day (2006) Basque usage. At the time it was produced, and in the climate of the period, this prescriptive aspect tended to mean "restrictive": the developers and proponents of Batua were busy "unifying" Basque by deciding what dimensions of internal variation to exclude from a standard norm. Kintana was very much a part of this movement and his dictionary was primarily telling Basque speakers/writers what words and forms not to use. And this involved a lot of subjective judgment on the author's part. If you don't know it, Kintana is well known as a person with a lot of strong opinions about what he feels is correct or not, or should be, in standard Basque. Again, that served a useful purpose at the time - people needed guidance, and Kintana gave it. Inevitably, he gave his own opinions along with it, and not everybody agrees with all his opinions. Above all, for present purposes, it is important to understand that this dictionary does not attempt to give all the existing Basque lexicon, it represents choices and preferences and recommended usage, by a given authority at a given point in the evolution of modern Basque.
*In terms of the dictionary's design, the amount and kind of information given about Basque words is lacking in the extreme. Parts of speech are not indicated. Different senses (''acepciones'') of entry words are not differentiated systematically, and some senses are simply omitted outright. Other essential information about usage is also absent. Some of this information could have been provided through the inclusion of examples (as in subsequent works), but the dictionary rarely provides any. Coverage of collocations, idiomatic expressions and so on is also lacking in quantity and quality. In short, it is more of a word list than a dictionary.


I am not much of an archaeologist. The gravettian and aurignacian culture articles here on wiki are crap, haven't learnt much from them. Were they both pan-European cultures ? In know they might have co-existed in western Europe, c. 25 kYa. Apparently, during the LGM, the Gravettian culture existed only in central Europe/ western Balkans.
I am not saying all this to disqualify the Kintana dictionary outright. I just want to put it into perspective as a reference work (since you seem to be using it as one). I think Xabier himself would probably agree with at least some of the things I've said here. --] 10:22, 1 December 2006 (UTC)
] (]) 23:25, 22 October 2008 (UTC)


:I know that the Paleolithic articles are quite crappy but I have not been motivated as of late to edit Misplaced Pages a lot.
:Ok, A.R. Thanks for your extense explanation. I will consider buying another dictionary in the future. You're surely right that it's a little obsolete and that the new editions have not changed it enough. --] 11:12, 1 December 2006 (UTC)
:Aurignacian is pan-European, except Eastern Europe, that was then scarcely populated (origin in either the Levant or Central/West Asia). Gravettian (origin unknown, splinter in Central Europe) is really pan-European and even spans into West Asia (Caucasus, Zagros) in form of Epigravettian and has some Siberian offshots too (Altai). Solutrean is resricted to the Franco-Cantabrian region (where it surely originated), with offshots in Iberia (gravettized - maybe at the origin of North African Oranian culture) and Hungary. Magdalenian (origin Franco-Cantabrian region, maybe with Central European late Aurignacian influences) finally includes all Western and Central Europe but excludes Italy, the Balcans and Eastern Europe, that remained "Epigravettian". Epipaleolithic cultures all evolved form either Magdalenian or Epigravettian. --] (]) 14:51, 23 October 2008 (UTC)


Just read the Prehistoric Iberia page. Very informative. ] (]) 00:28, 23 October 2008 (UTC)
==Basque dialect classifications==


:Hope it's still in good shape. The good and the bad of Misplaced Pages is that anyone can edit it. --] (]) 14:51, 23 October 2008 (UTC)
:I'm really (somehwat) interested in the west-center-east "classical" division (and possible alternatives. Certain irakasle of mine suggested that these three groups would be considered separate languages would they be more extended and that idea caught my imagination, naturally. If Spanish, Catalan and Italian would be spoken by just 700,000 fluent speakers and compacted in a territory of about 200x100 kms like Basque is, maybe they would be considered a single language too. Inversely if Basque speakers would be numbered by tens of millions and their spread would include thousands of kilometers possibly some of the most distant dialects like Bizkaiera or Xiberuera would be thought/claimed as related but different languages in the full sense of the term.
:If you have anything to say in this regard, know that I am interested. No need to be very extense, just a general opinion is more than sufficient.
:Regards, --] 11:12, 1 December 2006 (UTC)


Do you suppose that the spread of the carium pottery culture was a seperate route of spread to the "Balkan " farmers which spread Vincha culture to central Europe ? ] (]) 03:23, 2 December 2008 (UTC)
::Just a note on this. I recently got hold of a book called ''Language and Nationalism in Europe''. Stephen Barbour makes a similar point to Sugaar. He uses the examples of Germany and Jugoslavia, where he claims that certain German dialects are mutually incomprehensible, but are still considered the same language, whereas Croatian and Serbian are now considered different languages, even though they are mutually comprehensible. He makes the point that language does have a national identity and the divisions between what constitute "different" languages can be due to nationalist reasons rather than linguistic ones. I should say I'm no linguist and just got the book out of interest. There's a nice picture of a bilingual signpost in Wales on the cover :) In my experience most English people think it's quite quaint that we have roadsigns in both Welsh and English in Wales. ] 13:48, 1 December 2006 (UTC)


:It's very evident. Also (very important) Vinca is distinct from the Balcan-Danubian early Neolithic inland wave. Vinca-Dimini is a second layer that may have been an invasion (some burnt villages, specially in Thessaly, a totally different pottery, first male "god" icons...) and has a limited scope: Northern Greece, Macedonia, Serbia - and a more hybrid and late influence in Syrmia and parts of Hungary. The Black-Beige pottery and other elements of Dimini-Vinca are unknown in the Adriatic (Cardium/Epicardial), the Eastern Balcans (that adopt Danubian cultural influenes instead) or anywhere in the Central European Danubian (Western Linear Pottery) cultural area.
Yes, we could talk about that a bit more. Your suggestion that we do so concisely may be a bit harder to comply with :-)
:In any case, while the origins of Cardium and Balcano-Danubian Neolithic might have been mixed (it's kind of obscure but some Cardium pottery is found in early Sesklo, "proto-Sesklo" for some), the consolidation and diffusion of both waves is clearly distinct:
:(1) Balcanic (and derived Danubian) macro-culture expands through the inland routes into the Danubian basin and then farther west and north (as "Danubian", a culture that is significaively modified yet clearly derived from Balcanic Neolithic).
:(2) Cardium pottery not only has a totally distinct style of pottery (no painting, engraving instead) but also a more tight dependence on sheep/goat and very specially on fishing (they are the first Europeans known to have ever fished in the high seas, far away from the coast, what implies a relatively advance navigation capability). Their more clear source is the Adriatic Balcans (coastal Albania, Montenegro, Dalmatia and most of Bosnia), from where they expanded along the coasts into (sequentially) Southern Italy, Central Italy, Sardinia and Corsica, SE France and Eastern Spain, with some remains also found in Northern Africa and in Iberia further west. This expansion nevertheless is very clear to have in most cases absorbed rather than displaced the natives (Cardium-Imprinted pottery style but with local Epipaleolithic stone tools), though there are some spots that appear true colonizations.
:Regards, --] (]) 15:52, 2 December 2008 (UTC)
::Forgot: Cardium people also expanded into Northern Italy but in this case seems more of an inland migration directly from the Western Balcans. --] (]) 15:58, 2 December 2008 (UTC)


Alun is right when he says (I think that's what he's saying) that, as countless linguists have pointed out but there is no harm in repeating it, there simply are no black-and-white purely linguistic criteria that can be relied upon to determine what constitutes a separate language, and of course there are sufficient examples to illustrate this in Europe alone, and the same issues pop up just as often in other parts of the world, naturally. Consequently, whenever there could be the faintest doubt about such divisions, one may be sure that other considerations do come into play in determining what is considered a language. And we have to recognise that that is perfectly legitimate. In brief: "language identity" does not only depend on linguistic criteria!


Right. So the ''Vincha'' culture is a seperate entity to the ''balkan'' culture ? Coz on the simplified Neolithic Europe map, the Vincha culture covers most of the balkans. If the Vincha is a seperate to the Baclkan - Danubian, what do we propose are its origins ? ] (]) 21:35, 2 December 2008 (UTC)
What that means is that statements that "A and B (names of languages) could be considered separate languages/the same language if X, Y and Z were the case" are not saying all that much really, because X, Y and Z are always important factors in determining how A and B are considered.


:Not 100% separated, rather a new layer, probably caused by some invasion but certainly on the older early Neolithic substrate. There's clear discontinuity but also many elements persist. A deep transformation under a newly arrived influx in any case. They are also detected (simlar situation) in southern Anatolia (Can Hassan).
If that is one problem, another one is that statements such as "P and Q (two dialects of language A) are really very different from each other" or "there is really not all that much difference between P and Q, basically" are not statements that can be evaluated objectively because "very different" and "basically the same" are totally relative concepts that need to be put on a scale to be pinned down: different or similar compared to what? Now this may seem very obvious, but the trouble is that when ordinary people make such statements or circulate such beliefs, they do so referring only to their own knowledge of such cases (usually limited to one or two languages) or to assumptions about other languages which they don't know first hand and have to take on faith. An example of the first of these would be when Spanish speakers think that French or English are very exotic because they never never tried learning Basque, Japanese or Arabic. The second kind of situation is illustrated when a Basque speaker (or worse: a Spanish speaker who knows no Basque!!) tries to tell me that Basque dialects are hopelessly different from each other, and when I reply by asking, "Well, do you have any idea how different ENGLISH dialects can be from each other?", respond: "Oh, but not as different as Basque dialects, I can assure you" ''even if they have no experience of the differences between English dialects''. What I'm getting at here is that in the last resort, difference and similarity is all relative and therefore other considerations are determining whether a person decides, in a given context, to emphasise the one or the other.
:I use "Vinca", because that's what best approaches the Serbocroat spelling and is often found that way in English or Spanish too. But the pronunciation is certainly "Vincha" (VEEN-cha). It's not just Vinca but also Dimini in Thessaly (whose Bronze Age offspring, Rakhmani culture, persisted until just before the Mycenaean period) and other less famous cultural groups in Macedonia and highland Albania. They are all clearly related in origin.
:Among the area of early Balcanic (Sesklo-derived) Neolithic (that excludes the Adriatic), who were not influenced by this wave, fell under the influence (also very strong) of Danubian Neolithic. True that in the first moment there seems to be also some Vinca-Dimini influence (not the purest version anyhow) in Bulgaria but in the ] you can see that area has become yellow (Danubian by the color code I used). It seems that in Boian culture of Wallachia became very expansive, probably as reaction to the Vinca-Dimini influence (this last is my speculation in any case) absorbing the anyhow continous Bulgarian cultural group (nation?) into the Boian-Marica (or Boian-Maritza) culture, that replaces the Vinca-Dimini influence by a Danubian one, while keeping the peculiarity of this group, somewhat distinct since the very beginning.
:Origins of Dimini-Vinca? Obscure. Nevertheless there is a clearly related group in southern Anatolia (Can Hassan, also intrusive) and therefore it's been speculated that they may have arrived from West Asia. But their exact genesis is not known. In some anthropometrical paper I've browsed recently the Vinca remains appeared more related to Syria than anywhere else and rather apart from the main Balcanic trends. That's all I can say. --] (]) 22:13, 2 December 2008 (UTC)


Thanks mate ] (]) 04:31, 3 December 2008 (UTC)
So, it is true that there are differences between Basque dialects, but they are also very similar. Mitxelena once said that the surprising thing about Basque dialects was not how different they are, but the fact that they are not more different still. He actually proposed, on this basis, that there must have been a process of internal recolonization or some such homogenising process within the Basque linguistic domain in order to explain why there is not more divergence than there is. (Sorry, I haven't got the reference, and this is from memory.) Given this relativity of the issue, we have to be careful to contextualise our assessments of similarity. I wouldn't be surprised if you could make a case for Ondarroa Basque being a "different language" from Markina Basque if that was what we were aiming for. Of course we are not aiming for that, and so we don't. The Chinese, on the other hand, commonly insist that even Mandarin and Cantonese are "the same language", again because that is what they are interested in being the case.


===Magdalenian===
Well, sorry to have rambled on for so long. And I haven't really answered the point about east, central and west, have I? Sorry, perhaps next time... Cheers, Alan --] 17:30, 1 December 2006 (UTC)


Hello and seasons greetings. Quick qustion- was the Magdalenian culture the main culture of Iberia during the LGM (20-14kYa) ? ] (]) 09:10, 27 December 2008 (UTC)
:Frankly, you haven't answered my question but anyhow.
:Just as anecdote, some years ago, I transcribed an Iberian text (in Ionian alphabet) and shown it to a friend of mine from Ondarru (Ondarroa) to see what opinion might it cause in him, a native Basque speaker that surely was the first time that read an Iberian text. He said: ''It's not Ondarruan Basque... but Lekittian maybe''. Lekitto (Lekeitio) is not farther from Ondarroa than Markina actually. Anyhow coastal towns and villages (like Ondarroa and Lekeitio) often have very special dialects, a feature that doesn't seem to be the case at all in the interior. --] 02:01, 2 December 2006 (UTC)


:Iberia must be treated as two separate main regions: the Cantabrian region, very closely related to southern France (] as a whole), of Atlantic climate nowadays (my English apartment-mate is surprised of how much it rains here - so far from the topical idea of "sunny Spain"), and the properly Iberian region along the Mediterranean coast. Additonally there are a handful of sites elsewhere, specially near Lisbon, that sometimes appear related to one or the other.
Good anecdote :-)
:The Iberian (Mediterranean) province appears mostly as secondary to the Franco-Cantabrian one (much more important and densely populated overall) but with some noticeable peculiarities. It was first colonized by H. sapiens in the Aurignacian but with a very scattered pattern and low density. The main wave may have arrived only in the Gravettian (Cro-Magnon type), culture that rooted deeply there.
:In the LGM it is one of the first spots where Solutrean appears (soon after Dordogne) but this Solutrean became intensely "gravettized" soon after. The peculiar Gravetto-Solutrean of this area was probably the origin of North African ], at least in my opinion .
:Magdalenian arrived only late there, almost in the Epipaleolithic (Parpalloan). Soon after we see the so-called "microlinear" microlithism (directly related to ] of the Franco-Cantabrian region) and then the "geomtric" one (derived from ] culture of Middle Western Europe, that also influenced the Franco-Cantabrian region). Nevertheless the sites of microlinear and geometric Epipaleolithic are all different, what may mean two populations living side by side before the arrival of Neolithic.
:Hope this helps. --] (]) 09:52, 27 December 2008 (UTC)


==Requested Move of Mezquita de Córdoba ‎==
Rather than clearcut dialects, what I see are numerous isoglosses. For the most part, local Basque speech patterns (local meaning Lekeitio, Ondarroa, Gernika, Markina, Eibar, Oñati, Ataun, Zarautz, Oiartzun, Leitza, Elizondo, Sara, Hazparne, Luzaide, Santa Grazi, Izaba...) are a patchwork of largely mutually transitional varieties. (Likewise on a still smaller scale, e.g. Zumaia - Getaria - Zarautz - Aia - Orio - Usurbil...)
I just requested a move of ] to '''Great Mosque of Cordoba''' ‎ because this is an English language encyclopedia. I though you would agree.] (]) 19:03, 30 October 2008 (UTC)Historicist


==Iruña-Veleia==
I have my doubts about whether, if the province of Gipuzkoa didn't exist as a territorial concept, anybody would think there was such a thing as a Gipuzkoan dialect at all! What is clear is that some varieties of "Gipuzkoan" share considerably more with Bizkaian and others have greater affinity to varieties to the east, but with no obvious non-arbitrary dividing line on this account.
Kaixo Sugaar! Puedes mover tu mapa que muetra la localización de Iruña-Veleia a Commons? más que nada para poder ponerla en ]. Mila esker eta gero arte--]]] 14:19, 27 November 2008 (UTC) <small><span class="autosigned">—Preceding ] comment added by ] (] • ]) </span></small><!-- Template:Unsigned --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->


:Move it yourself. I'm inactive. Anyhow, if the map has legend in English, it should not be moved but copied into a language-neutral format. --] (]) 04:55, 28 November 2008 (UTC)
There is also quite a lot of internal variation within Bizkaian (and not only between the coast and the interior: the main internal division within Bizkaian of Bizkaia usually recognised is between west and east; the Bizkaian of Gipuzkoa makes up a third division). However, it has been said that there is greater internal homogeneity within Bizkaian than within Gipuzkoan, given that there are certain common features that all Bizkaian dialects share in common. Notice that common features need not be exclusive features: Gipuzkoan varieties (e.g.) may also share them.


== Some Spanish Nationalist nonsense ==
As far as I can tell, the same observations apply to Zuberoan and the surrounding dialect areas: Low Navarrese is internally heterogeneous much as Gipuzkoan is, some Low Navarrese varieties share a number of the features considered "typically Zuberoan", much as some Gipuzkoan varieties display supposedly "Bizkaian" features.


(Originally titled: "* tus estupideces en la pagina de carlos V *", or in English "your idiocies in the page of Charles V - changed by the owner of the page for aesthetic reasons --] (]) 05:29, 7 July 2009 (UTC)).
So we have two possible macro-views of the Basque dialect spectrum: one in which "west" and "east" are treated more restrictively as equivalent to Bizkaian and Zuberoan respectively, and everything else is bunched together as central; and another in which the transitional and heterogeneous nature of all the main Basque "dialects" is acknowledged and which does not therefore recognise any radical cut-off between west (or east) and central areas, but a continuum. (That's as brief as I can make it!) --] 09:51, 2 December 2006 (UTC)


It's true that many modern authors use the term Spain way too liberally, falling in absurd anachronisms. This is partly fuelled by the nationalist ideology of modern Spain (with all the romanticism involved in such phenomenons: amplifying the nimious and minimzing the obvious) and the general perception that the seed of this modern state was already there since the late 15th century (marriage of Ferdinand and Isabella). --Sugaar 13:17, 3 December 2007 (UTC)
:Ok. Thanks for the explanation.
But formally there was no such "kingdom" at all at least until Philip II.
:I imagine you now understand why I asked "what eastern dialects?" It wasn't so clear, it seems. --] 10:30, 2 December 2006 (UTC)


JAJAJAJAJAJA
No problem. But just for the record, the statement I made about ''sortu'' meaning "be born" in all eastern dialects was not dependent on any particular definition of eastern dialects: however you define "eastern", the statement holds. Alan --] 10:59, 2 December 2006 (UTC)
claro, Por eso Soliman el magnifico no reconocia a carlos V por el titulo imperial sino como rey de España "ispanya" no HISPANIA.
así lo vemos en el estudio de la hispanista Özlem Kumrular, de la Universidad del Bósforo (Boğaziçi Üniversitesi): Carlos V y Solimán el Magnífico: dos soberanos en lucha por un poder universal, y en el libro El imperio otomano 1300-1650 de Colin Imber (Ediciones B), 2004, según consta en la página 69, y en la página 137.


que vivan las vascongadas. <span style="font-size: smaller;" class="autosigned">—Preceding ] comment added by ] (]) 10:20, 30 March 2009 (UTC)</span><!-- Template:UnsignedIP --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->
==About my previous post==
Wondered what you might think of this? from ]. I auto-translated the French into English, but got "warned" not to ]. So I disregarded the "warn". Don't think there's any rules against this. I hope he does "report" me. He removed the text and wrote "¡Albino, te pido que no escribas nada comprometedor en mi pagina pues hay un loco aqui que lo traduce todo!" which I also autotranslated. So I left a message saying that it is still accessible. Check out the ] stuff on his user page as well from ]. Wonder what lovely ] edits these people plan to make? ] 17:33, 30 November 2006 (UTC)


That's not any official title. Turkey did not exist either before Ataturk, no matter the name was occasionally used to refer to the Ottoman Empire.
:Ah, I see you've met before! No introduction necessary then. ] 18:52, 30 November 2006 (UTC)


In any case, please, write in English, be polite and constructive and sign your comments. --] (]) 05:29, 7 July 2009 (UTC)
::Yes, it seems that the first thing right-wing newbies do after they sign up is to vandalize my page one way or another. I have alredy reprorted him, naturally.
::It's funny about the translation, because there's a lot of people (including administrators) in en.Misplaced Pages who can read Spanish and French pretty well. Bt it's never an excess to do it, because everybody has the right to know what's going on in Misplaced Pages and using languages other than English in excess (specially when they are PAs or ideological manifestos) is clearly an abuse in itself.
::Nevertheless I have more useful things to do than persecuting falangistas. I leave that to administrators, if that's the right thing to do. --] 21:40, 30 November 2006 (UTC)


== Your comments == == Violencia ==


Hola, te he respondido en la página de discusión ] a la pregunta que haces sobre la violencia, pero ahora que veo que hablas español, creo que es mejor responderte aquí en un idioma que domino que allí en uno que apenas chapurreo.
About your comments.


Pues si, la violencia contra la propiedad es violencia legalmente (no he leído el artículo entero, así que asumo por tu comentario a que se refiere a violencia de ese tipo). Esto en España es así, y lo he oído en boca de activistas pro derechos de los animales, que tienen que saber para luego poder asumir las consecuencias lo que es y lo que no es delito (cortar un candado, como ellos decían, se consideraría un acto violento aunque este no cueste ni un euro, así que teniendo en cuenta cuantos sitios hay disponibles para hacer ] sin tener que hacer nada más que entrar y llevarse un animal, evitaban siempre hacer ese tipo de actividades de esa manera). Y en Estados Unidos diría que también se considera violencia, porque Tom Regan menciona (en su libro "Jaulas Vacías") que, de acuerdo a lo que se entiende por violencia (y cita alguna definición de diccionario), muchos de los actos que hace el ] son claramente violentos.
1. Basques and Spaniards are as related as you can see in the sources that I have provided. Neither less, nor more. The majority of Basques and Spaniards belong to the same population group. About 90% of Basques and about 70% of Spaniards, one up one down. By the way, taking into account that there are about 40 million Non-Basque Spaniards, about 28 million belong to that population group (the Rb1, or Atlantic one). Taking into account that there are about 3 million Basques, and that including the Navarrese, there are about 2.8 million Basques that belong to that population group, a ten per cent of the Non-Basque Spaniards. In other words, for every Basque that belongs to that population group there are 9 Non-Basque Spaniards.


Lo que las personas que se sienten molestos con este término suelen hacer en estas situaciones es matizar con un "contra la propiedad", para que se aclare que con "violencia" no se entiende lo que la gente suele entender por ella (agresión contra quienes pueden sentirla).
2. The 95% I have never seen. I have rather seen close to 90%. Anyway I do not think it is important to argue about that difference.


Veo que de todos modos, NRen2k5 ha dejado después de mi comentario una cita de otro artículo que creo confirma mis palabras (aunque aun tampoco la he leído entera).
3. I loathe all types of extreme nationalists, be them Spanish, Basques or German nationalists: They all have the same kind of terrible and horrible type of leanings and a high propensity to lie and manipulate information to suit their agendas.


Saludos. ] (]) 17:15, 11 June 2009 (UTC)
4. I am myself Basque on my mother's side and German on my fathers. I consider myself a Basque, a Spaniard and a German. And a lot of Basques like me consider themselves Spaniards, in spite of the fact that we have to live with the harrassment of one of the most violent minorities in Europe, the extreme Basque nationalists. ] 21:57, 1 December 2006 (UTC)


:Normalmente prefiero comunicarme aquí en inglés, de forma que todo el mundo pueda entender. De todas maneras, que sea un delito no implica que sea "violencia". Cortar el tráfico u ocupar un edificio puede ser delito pero no es violencia. Gandhi cuando inició sus campañas de desobediencia noviolenta lo hizo cometiendo delitos, como hacer sal. La diferencia con un criminal normal es que ellos lo hacían abiertamentamente con la intención de protestar y asumiendo las consecuencias (ir a la cárcel o lo que sea).
:As you noticed, I <s>deleted</s> most of those comments. The only difference would be 90-95% issue, what is surely matter of appreciation or sample.
:Eso es noviolencia: resistencia activa, incluso técncamente criminal a veces pero sin matar, herir o violentar de cualquier otra manera a nadie. Yo tengo bastante experiencia en campañas y acciones noviolentas e incluyen asaltar cuarteles o locales de partidos (sin herir a nadie, usando la sorpresa y tácticas así), no acudir a obligaciones legales como el servicio militar, que pueden llegar a ser delito y sin duda ilegales. El que la actividad sea delictiva o no, no es lo que define la violencia. Matar judíos, gitanos, gays y rojos varios en Matthaussen era perfectamente legal pero extremadamente violento, la Satygraha de Gandhi era ilegal, criminal, pero noviolenta.
:If we're going to use the Y-chromosome haplogroups, as you know well, other peoples like Britons and, specially Gascons and Celtic peoples of the Atlantic are much closer to the Basque reference. In other aspects sometimes Iberians are closer to Basques and sometimes it's British people the closest ones. That's why I think that Western Europeans makes things a lot clearer and is NPOV.
:La gente que pretende hacer creer que cualquier acto que sea técnicamente ilegal es "violencia" simplemente trata de echar mierda sobre la resistencia noviolenta: trata de desactivar, de volver una forma de lucha tremendamente poderosa en algo sin fuerza. Es un cachondeo!
:On the rest, I'm not willing to discuss politics in Misplaced Pages. Just to mention that I cannot consider myself Spaniard nor French because I think of that as genocidal imperialism, not just in the Americas, Africa or Al Andalus but also in my (our) Basque Country. I believe we are entitled to decide our destiny democratically and rule ourselves as our ancestors did. While that's not acknowledged problems will surely continue one way or the other... it's a sad fact that we find through history at least since the arrival of Celts 3,000 years ago. --] 01:21, 2 December 2006 (UTC)
:--] (]) 12:39, 30 September 2009 (UTC)


== Call for opinion on a neutrality accusation in a human genetics related article ==
You have a response in the Basque article. ] 03:20, 2 December 2006 (UTC)


As a member of the WikiProject ] may I ask for opinions on ?--] (]) 11:59, 27 June 2009 (UTC)
==Machismo==
I think some of our "new" falangists want to have another go at the machismo article again, see ''Estuve en comunicación con M., queremos resucitar el artículo sobre machismo, ¿te nos unes, amigo?--Albinomite 18:03, 1 December 2006 (UTC)'' where M is presumably your old sparing partner. Thought you'd be interested. ] 22:32, 1 December 2006 (UTC)
:I'm not totally surprised but I think it's a distraction maneouvre. Marsiliano was quite uncivil and had some biased ideas on what machismo is (machista ideas) but while our new "friends" my also have machista ideas maybe it doesn't seem it's their true objective.
:Maybe they are just upset at me and are trying to create confusion or dig in the only serious conflict I had in my previous history in Misplaced Pages.
:I wonder why they act in such a provocative manner anyhow. They should know by now it's not productive. --] 01:11, 2 December 2006 (UTC)


== Discussion on September 11 attacks terminated ==


Hello Sugaar, These past few days, I was involved in a discussion on the page ] and this morning I learnt that someone had decided to terminate it abruptly. I couldn't help noticing the same thing happening to you. In both cases, the enforcer goes by the name of Tarage and I find his attitude both offensive and impolite. He behaves like a thug, don't you agree? As it seems you've been a wikipedian longer than I am, I was wondering if you were aware of any recourse to have the closure submitted to an administrator or if we should just give up —in disgust as far as I am concerned. Sincerely, ] (]) 11:52, 6 December 2009 (UTC)
==this could be just too good==


**Hello again, Sugaar. I realize I made a mistake. The section which has been archived is not the one you were involved in but another one below it. All the same, I saw your post expressing your desire to leave Misplaced Pages. I too am disgusted by the attitude of those who seem to be in charge. I don't know what I'll do. ] (]) 12:10, 6 December 2009 (UTC)
Mate, I have just had a flashback....I wonder if, actually, we know each other personally...are your initials in real life F.A.E.? Just curious....This could be too good! :D ] 01:36, 2 December 2006 (UTC)


== Vitoria-Gasteiz part 2 ==
:Not at all: my real name is Luis. Why? --] 01:44, 2 December 2006 (UTC)


Despite having edited articles off-and-on for about 5 years now, this is still a major part of Misplaced Pages culture that I just don't "get". I tried to piece together form ] why that article is entitled what it is. Here's the chronology I inferred:
::Oh, sorry: I just thought for a minute that we actually know each other, but then I remembered that this friend of mine doesn't like Punk Rock :D But I had to ask because it would be just too funny if we knew each other, don't you think?
*Someone came along and, for whatever motives, renamed ] to Vitoria, Spain.
::Anyway, feel free to delete this comment. I am sorry to have bothered you in your talk page. My apologies again for the cheeky question ] 02:03, 2 December 2006 (UTC)
*Someone proposed a move back.
*A few people said that, hey, the person shouldn't have moved it without consensus but now that they did, it's an appropriate title.
*A few more people, including you, said that it's an inappropriate title.
*Because consensus wasn't reached, the article didn't move.


So the unilateral actor wins the dispute. The prize for not following WP custom of consensus building is that you get your way.
:::Never mind, it's ok. I thought you were form Madrid or Andalusia from our other exchanges (and your Monteoliva nick, maybe your surname). Whatever... --] 02:16, 2 December 2006 (UTC)


What am I missing here? I agree strongly that you're correct on the merits of the naming, and more to the point this example shows why I get bored with Misplaced Pages so fast. If there's a ''de facto'' unwritten rule here, it seems to be that the squeakiest wheel gets the grease. This is a huge hole in Misplaced Pages IMO.
==Strange autographs and threats==
:''Please all new users with strange problems with me, sign in this section. Just to keep things in order, ok?''


FWIW it's easy to Google an example from 2001 . IMO their style matters far more than what a million historians call the ], '''because it's actually a contemporary English usage'''!
''M of Magencio'' was here. I am building an ] terrorist sympathizer case against said person. His edits dilate his terroristic intentions.--] 11:19, 2 December 2006 (UTC)


At any rate, I've brought up the question again on ] - Regards, ] (]) 09:24, 9 January 2010 (UTC)
<!-- Place your threat, insult or undue warning above this message. Don't forget to sign. If you don't come with said intentions, you may want to start a new section instead. -->


Ahah so you remove the warning, then I also am free to do the same. An eye for an eye then you morisc relic.--] 07:37, 3 December 2006 (UTC) :Oh, never mind, I see you don't edit Misplaced Pages any longer. Can't say I blame you. - Regards, ] (]) 19:53, 9 January 2010 (UTC)


== Basque archaeology ==
:You are of course free to remove warnings. A warn it's a notification for your information and consideration, in the hope that the warned acts are not repeated in the future. Wether you remove it or not, it is patent in the page history. Nevertheless removal of properly issued warnings is seen as "trying to hide evidence" by some. No consensus on this, as far as I know, anyhow. --] 07:42, 3 December 2006 (UTC)
Hello, my name is Dmitri Lytov, I am interested in European prehistory. I appreciate your contribution to the English Misplaced Pages on prehistoric topics and, as you may have noticed, I have already translated some of your prehistoric articles. May I ask you one thing: I prepared an , which was published in Basque. If you can read in Basque, can you please comment just a little? Regards and greetings from Saint Petersburg, Russia. --] (]) 20:40, 19 February 2010 (UTC)


{{you've got mail}}] (]) 01:24, 20 June 2011 (UTC)
Even though you are impressed of our leader's linguistic ability, you are still not allowed to post comments on our pages. Also it not legal to defend ETA (or kale barroka), not even on wikipedia. Beware! ''Legio Semper Fidelis''--] 10:06, 3 December 2006 (UTC)


== ] ==
:I'm not so impressed as you seem to believe. Anyhow, who is "your leader" and who are "you" (plural)?
:I would gladly avoid contact with "you" if you did the same. I find a waste of time to teach you manners. Nevertheless, as slong as you vandalize my page, make personal attacks and threats of legal or illegal nature, I am somewhow obligued to warn you of your ] and even to report you you adminship if necesary.
:Aditionally, you are no one to delete my comments to Baliño, Albinomite, LaBota or whoever. You can surely edit reasonably your own user talk but you are no one to intervene in other's user page, much less to vandalize mine or make threats and ]s. I have already warned you and I hope I don't have to do that again. You must take notice and read the policy and guidelines unless you want to cause harm to yourself. --] 11:04, 3 December 2006 (UTC)


]
"Cause harm to myself." Are you threatening me? I will surely report you.--] 11:24, 3 December 2006 (UTC)
Hi, you createt the map ]. Thanks allot! Do you have the GPS Coordinates for the red dots? On WP/de I am preparing a list of all those sites: ]. Greetings --] (]) 09:38, 22 August 2013 (UTC)


== Notification of automated file description generation ==
:Don't be ridiculous: it's the same of "you can be blocked" of the warning templates. I just hate to be so aggresive and used an alternative phrase. What I meant anyhow is that, if you don't abide by Misplaced Pages's policies of civility, you will surely get in trouble '''yourself'''. --] 11:34, 3 December 2006 (UTC)
Your upload of ] or contribution to its description is noted, and thanks (even if belatedly) for your contribution. In order to help make better use of the media, an attempt has been made by an automated process to identify and add certain information to the media's description page.


This notification is placed on your talk page because a bot has identified you either as the uploader of the file, or as a contributor to its metadata. It would be appreciated if you could carefully review the information the bot added. To opt out of these notifications, please follow the instructions ]. Thanks!<!--Template:Un-botfill-null--> ''Message delivered by ] (])'' 11:53, 25 December 2013 (UTC)
== ] ==


*Another one of your uploads, ], has also had some information automatically added. If you get a moment, please review the bot's contributions there as well. Thanks!<!--Template:Un-botfill-null--> ''Message delivered by ] (])'' 14:37, 4 March 2014 (UTC)
cross-posted to A R King's talk as well)
Hi,


*Another one of your uploads, ], has also had some information automatically added. If you get a moment, please review the bot's contributions there as well. Thanks!<!--Template:Un-botfill--> ''Message delivered by ] (])'' 14:39, 4 March 2014 (UTC)
I put a note on ''']''' about this, but he may not be online. I know nothing of the Basques except that they are the descendants of people either driven from their lands or assimilated by the Indo-European speakers ] of Europe, or more likely vice versa, since the Basques were booted out of their lands before the Taiwanese aborigines were theirs].


I don't have time to participate in the discussion. I'm sorry.
--] 03:59, 4 December 2006 (UTC)
:Never mind but thanks for your interest anyhow. --] 04:45, 4 December 2006 (UTC)


== Vascones ==


== A Barnstar For You! ==
::Hi, Sugaar. I was the one who said on the talk page that the Latin singular of ''Vascones'' would be ''Vasco''. I was originally speaking simply from my familiarity with Latin, without knowing whether the form was actually recorded, but, since you ask the question, I have checked and found that the form ''Vasco'' does exist. I've cited a source on the talk page. Do you want me to correct the article, or do you want to look into it further? <font face="Gill Sans"><font color="green">]</font>''']'''<font color="green">]</font></font> 14:13, 4 December 2006 (UTC)


{| style="background-color: #fdffe7; border: 1px solid #fceb92;"
If it's not too rude of me to come into this conversation (which I couldn't help "overhearing"): it seems to me that Gascon and Spanish ''b/vasco'' are unlikely to have developed directly from Latin ''vasco'', a nominative, since the normal source is the accusative. So for example in Castilian the expected outcome from Latin ''vasco'' (gen. ''vasconis'') would be ''b/vascón'' rather than ''b/vasco''. Can you suggest how to account for that, Andrew? Cheers, Alan --] 15:06, 4 December 2006 (UTC)
|rowspan="2" style="vertical-align: middle; padding: 5px;" | ]
|style="font-size: x-large; padding: 3px 3px 0 3px; height: 1.5em;" | '''Basque Barnstar of National Merit'''
|-
|style="vertical-align: middle; padding: 3px;" | Although you are no longer active, I must show my appreciation and respect by awarding you with this barnstar. eskerrik asko! ] <sup>]</sup> 11:36, 24 February 2014 (UTC)
|}
== Proposed deletion of Biltzar ==
]


The article ] has been ]&#32; because of the following concern:
:Very interesting discussion, gentlemen. But I think the correct place to discuss it is in the talk page of ], where the problem has arisen. I'll be around. --] 15:40, 4 December 2006 (UTC)
:'''Misplaced Pages is not a dictionary and this article is little more than X means Y in Basque.'''


While all constructive contributions to Misplaced Pages are appreciated, content or articles may be ].
Yes, I suspected so. Why don't you move it there, Sugaar. --] 15:48, 4 December 2006 (UTC)


You may prevent the proposed deletion by removing the {{Tlc|proposed deletion/dated}} notice, but please explain why in your ] or on ].
:Well, I posted there. Andrew did too. And I'm looking for a map of Gulf of St. Lawrence right now. You are also the best qualified one to "move" (or rather repost) your own opinion, rather than I saying "A.R. King said this or that in my user page". --] 16:36, 4 December 2006 (UTC)


Please consider improving the article to address the issues raised. Removing {{Tlc|proposed deletion/dated}} will stop the ], but other ]es exist. In particular, the ] process can result in deletion without discussion, and ] allows discussion to reach ] for deletion.<!-- Template:Proposed deletion notify --> ] (]) 11:29, 30 March 2015 (UTC)
Okay. --] 17:48, 4 December 2006 (UTC)


== ] ==
== Template ==


{{Misplaced Pages:Arbitration Committee Elections December 2015/MassMessage}} ] (]) 12:53, 23 November 2015 (UTC)
Hi there! You recently said I proposed a "censorship template"? I'm curious as to what you're referring to; I've found ] but that's probably not it. Yours, (]) 13:38, 4 December 2006 (UTC)
<!-- Message sent by User:Mdann52@enwiki using the list at https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=User:Mdann52/list&oldid=691987405 -->


== Letting you know ==
::Agh! It wasn't you but ] (see ]). My bad! You did very well in asking, because I was trusting my memory and I was wrong. You have such a "radiant" signature that I got it stuck in my memory instead of the right one.
That you have been added on Missing Wikipedians. ] (]) 14:15, 29 March 2022 (UTC)
::I'm going to delete that vote in a minute. I can't really vote for you because your candidature was presented really late and I had no time to study it but at least I won't vote against you for the wrong reason. --] 15:54, 4 December 2006 (UTC)
:::Thank you. For what it's worth, you have two weeks to study the late nominations, because I believe there were several last-minute ones (although not as much as last year when we had some 60 nominatinos total. (]) 16:31, 4 December 2006 (UTC)
::::Sure. But I've been paying attention to the issue since early November and I think I will have not time nor energies to ponder the late candidatures. You have a lot of votes anyhow. Also some other negative votes re. you were emphasizing issues like sysops' excess of freedom above policy (aka abuse of power) that make me think I could end voting against you for the right reasons if I think too mch about it. So maybe better let it go. --] 16:42, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

== Basque people cleanup? ==

Hi Sugaar. I was looking at the Basque people article, which has a template on it asking for it to be cleaned up, and I started thinking that I could go through it and clean up the language a little bit. It is not that bad so there wouldn't be a lot to change, just a couple of grammatical details here and there. I would like to do this without touching anything remotely controversial, just style and grammar. That way, the overall quality of the article would be improved, and perhaps that would help us to get the template(s) removed, and also just give it an overall aspect of maximum respectability as far as form is concerned, if you know what I mean. I'd like to check on your opinion first, though. Do you think this is a good moment for me to do that? Since we've had misunderstandings before, I don't want you to misinterpret my intentions! Cheers, Alan --] 18:28, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

:No problem, really. Maybe others may have problems but I really don't. If you touch something that is questionable we can always discuss it later.
:The article definitively needs a cleanup and I've been trying to do some of it already. I would like it to become a GA class article soon in the future.
:One of the things I've proposed is to split the history in a different article (so it's not so long) but haven't got any replies yet. --] 18:36, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

Just to let you know I've started the cleanup, but I'll go one section at a time and the rhythm will depend on availability of my time. I've started with the introduction. --] 20:18, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

==Albinomite has been blocked!==

I hope you're happy now! Because of your machinations you got him into trouble and now he's blocked! He deserves from you and the wiki community an apology.--] 22:14, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

:And who are you? His new sockpuppet?
:I have not machinated anything. Only denounced PAs, vandalism and what looked like conspirative talks. I have other worries than being at the heels of a bunch of people that don't seem to know what they want. Misplaced Pages is an open access site that is based in assumption of good faith, I imagine that he broke that principle but I don't know the details of his ban.
:As you seem to be part of that group, let me tell you one thing: Misplaced Pages is great because it follows ] and other associated principles. Becuase it is partcipative and multi-sided. If you want an ideologically defined "wikipedia", you should try something separate. Obviously it won't have the same success, because most people is not interested in an ideologically based encyclopedia but in approaching truth as much as possible.
:As ] wrote:
<blockquote>
''Not your truth but the truth''<br>
''and come with me in search of it,''<br>
''yours: keep it for yourself.''
</blockquote>
:--] 04:22, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

::He got blocked indefinitely for making racist and inflamatory comments on the Black people talk page. He managed to make a personal attack and a racist comment about Michael Jackson at the same time. I think he got an instant ban. I don't know if he was reported to an admin, or if an admin just noticed. Albinomite and his little meatpuppet entourage have been exceedingly aggressive and offensive, it was only a matter of time before one or all of them got blocked. I toyed with the idea of reporting him, but then I've never reported anyone before and I don't want to ever do it. I figured one of them was heading for a block soon just by their general obnoxiousness, I thought it would be ] as he seemed to be the most agressive. Whatever, it was comming anyway, if anyone makes posts like that they are likely to get a block, it's his own fault, no one forced him to make this racist comment. I had warned him several times that he and his meatpuppets were heading for a block if they couldn't be more constructive. ] 06:57, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

Latest revision as of 20:02, 12 February 2023

This user may have left Misplaced Pages. Sugaar has not edited Misplaced Pages since September 2012. As a result, any requests made here may not receive a response. If you are seeking assistance, you may need to approach someone else.

Archives

/Archive 1, /Archive 2, /Archive 3, /Archive 4, /Archive 5


Re:Más sobre Statesclop

Hola Sugaar, Este usuario ha sido bloqueado a perpetuidad, pero continúa creando nuevas cuentas si detectas algún vandalismo similar o edidición inapropiada por parte de un nuevo usuario o ip házmelo saber. Gracias. Un saludo. AnnaP (talk) 12:27, 20 November 2007 (UTC)

Spain

And from the simply practical point of view it's misleading to describe him as ruling 'Spain', since the situation was more complicated: one could make a case for describing Philip II as 'King of Spain' from his accession, because he ruled over pretty much modern Spain as sole king, even if the crowns were technically separate - whereas Charles succeeded to the two crowns separately, and ruled a very new union. Yes, for practical purposes, in the body of the article, his Spanish territory can be described as 'Spain' (because 'Aragon-and-Castile' is tedious), but it's not really acceptable in the lead. Michael Sanders 12:48, 3 December 2007 (UTC)

Elcano

Please, let's finish such long discussion about a single sentence, by finding an intermediate thing that says ut all. I see very clearly how your main source is your personal POV (for example you found very bad that "Spain" was mentioned twice in the same paragraph) and you don't accept what is currently accepted internationally (again when mentioning other encyclopaedias or other sources).

Those coins, texts, etc show you how the concept of Spain with the correspondent culture (eg religion & language) existed. It is internationally accepted that Carlos I was a de facto King of Spain (e.g. that's how the current national Spanish institutions recognise it, look at them).

Saying both things ("a Basque Spanish") seems fine for me, as it is based on cultural aspects. If you want to apply a nationality aspect only then it shouldn't say Basque since he was Castilian (then you can say something like a Castilian navigator from what is now the Basque Country in Spain).

Don't apply different arguments (ignoring the other) for the same topic. We should try to be constructive (agreements have been found in other articles such as Carlos I). Escorial82 (talk) 09:56, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

No, it's not POV: there was no "Spain" yet, not even in name. There was Castile and the other relams united under a single monarch: Emperor Charles V. There are no texts (you have provided only texts that say the opposite, like those acts of the Cortes of Castile - only Castile!).
There is no doubt that he was Basque instead and that the Basque ethnicity and language existed then.
You could say "a Basque Castilian" but that would be confuse in modern terminology (it's like saying "a Welsh Englishman" - no matter that Wales was for long a province of England, it sounds strange as now England and Wales are considered different entities), so the choice of words "Basque subject of the King/Kingdom of Castile" is probably the best.
Additionally, I think it's wrong to say "Gipuzkoa, Spain". When he was born Gipuzkoa was a part oc Castile, so it should read: "Gipuzkoa, then /an autonomous/ province of the Kingdom of Castile".
It's also incorrect to term the colonies "Spanish", as they were exclussively Castilian, up to the point that other subjects of the same monarch (including the "Spanish" ones of Aragon, Catalonia, etc.) were not allowed normally to enter them. Only someone blind because of an ultra-romantic idealization of Spanish history can ignore that.
Form the viewpoint of the Basque Wikiproject (and common sense), it's important that he's (correctly and beyond doubt) defined as Basque, because he is possibly the most important universal Basque ever and, as such, he is mentioned in other articles. That's beyond discussion. There's no doubt that being born in Getaria, his primary language was Basque and therefore he is an ethnic Basque without any doubt. I hope you don't even consider questioning that.
Overall there is no evidence that Charles was considered in his time by almost anyone "King of Spain". The coin you mentioned, minted in America, and an exception in any case, reads "King of the Spains" in Latin, which is a very different title, one used in different variants by several medieval monarchs who claimed some sort of regional primacy, often with little success.
For the objective historian there is not the slightest doubt that before Philip II no monarch (at least since the Visgoths) had entitled him/herself "king of Spain". Even then, one can argue that Spain was only a generic name and not a real state, as that monarch, like his Habsburg successors, ruled over several states, until the Bourbons supressed the autnomy of the realms of the Aragonese crown, annexing them de facto to Castile and actually forging the modern unified Spain with that action.
But anyhow, we are just discussing Charles V, who never ever used that title at all.
You argument like if your "evidence" was inquestionable but actually it's not even evidence: the acts of the Cortes of Castile don't ever mention any "kingdom of Spain" and the Mexican coin is an od exception that rather relates to medieval titles than to the would-be Spansh monarchy.
Get over it: you are wrong. The only legit claim you ahve is that nowadays some (mostly Spanish) historians want to claim Charles as the first king of unified Spain but that's nothing but an opinion and, as I see it, an ideological apology ex-post-facto. --Sugaar (talk) 01:03, 11 December 2007 (UTC)

Charles V

It's my understanding that because "King of Granada" and "King of Navarre" were attached to the Castilian crown, they are mentioned in association with Castile (just as "King of Aragon, Valencia, Catalonia and Sicily" are with Aragon). As for Navarre, Upper Navarre was legitimately Spanish after 1512 (they were accepted by the Navarrese cortes) whilst Lower Navarre continued to be ruled by the de Foix/Albret family. Michael Sanders 13:53, 21 December 2007 (UTC)

Okay, you seem to be right. As regards Navarre, though, I think you're over-complicating the issue of sovereignity - the de Foix/Albret families ruled and were legally accepted in Lower Navarre, the Spanish royals ruled and were legally accepted in Upper Navarre. I'll fix the rest, however. Michael Sanders 16:43, 22 December 2007 (UTC)
My God, I didn't know about the walls. That's pretty disturbing (so much for 'conformity' with Ferdinand's other kingdoms)... Also, thanks for the info on Navarre, it's good to be corrected by people who know what they're talking about. Michael Sanders 18:41, 23 December 2007 (UTC)

Question on disciplinary action

User talk:I love entei tagged my article on Joan_Perez_de_Lazarraga for deletion because it "failed to indicate the importance of the subject," but the information was all in there. I asked him why he did it, and he said it had to do with lack of categorization, broken links, and being a "poor article" (no arguments there, but hasn't the guy ever heard of stubs?!?) I asked about the "no indication of importance" thing, and he dodged the question a couple of times. (Check out my talk page for the other half of the back-and-forth.) I told him I'd report the tagging as malicious if he couldn't explain his actions, and he couldn't, so I'd like to know how to report him. I looked around, but couldn't find anything. Also, it might be interesting to you to note that a page he created at 13:11 today (Dec 22) on a vacuum cleaner has been tagged for deletion. Perfection Vacuum Cleaner. It looks to me like he was looking to get back at the world. I don't know how someone who could write an article like that could call the Lazarraga article "poor"! (I'm cross-posting this to a couple of people on the Basque Project.)  Madler  05:07, 23 December 2007 (UTC)

Sorry, just found the Community Portal link (d'oh!). I had been searching for variations on "disciplinary action" using the regular search box.  Madler  05:34, 23 December 2007 (UTC)
Kaixo, Sugaar! It's no big deal, and the guy appears to regret having done it (he's helped clean up the article a bit), so I'm just going to drop it. (By the way, someone else added the Senor de La Torre part...) Y una pregunta - ¿tú eres vasco o español interesado en Euskal Herria o qué? Estoy pensando traducir un montón de artículos sobre escritores vascos para ... bueno, para educarme, en primer lugar, pero también para poder crear una página sobre la literatura vasca. Una página sobre la literatura vasca sin ningun enlace (dentro de Misplaced Pages) sería un poco raro, to say the least. Por eso, quisiera pedir un poco de ayuda en corregir mis traducciones, puesto que mi nivel está bastante bajo. Eskerrik asko aldez aurretik!  Madler  00:40, 24 December 2007 (UTC)

Great! I'll try to come up with some kind of template that's appropriate. And I'll stick to English... ;)  Madler  11:41, 24 December 2007 (UTC)

Basques_Newfoundland.gif

Kaixo Sugaar, Would you mind to solve this problem. I'd like to get your map for Histoire du Canada in french, but it's not on Commons yet. Eskerrik asko Zorion 2 february 2008 —Preceding unsigned comment added by 142.217.130.68 (talk) 19:44, 2 February 2008 (UTC)

Here is the new map Sugaar. Tell me what do you think of this ? http://commons.wikimedia.org/Image:Basques_Newfoundland.gif Gero arte Zorion 3 february 2008. —Preceding comment was added at 16:20, 3 February 2008 (UTC)

Sugaar's History Maps

I just saw some of your maps Sugaar, great work! I'm checking them out and taking some notes for possible corrections on my next round of updates. Thank you for putting them online. Do you plan to make any more? Respectfully, Thomas Lessman (talk) 07:31, 12 February 2008 (UTC)


Disputed fair use rationale for Image:Euskal Herritarrok logo.jpg

Thanks for uploading Image:Euskal Herritarrok logo.jpg. However, there is a concern that the rationale you have provided for using this image under "fair use" may be invalid. Please read the instructions at Misplaced Pages:Non-free content carefully, then go to the image description page and clarify why you think the image qualifies for fair use. Using one of the templates at Misplaced Pages:Fair use rationale guideline is an easy way to ensure that your image is in compliance with Misplaced Pages policy, but remember that you must complete the template. Do not simply insert a blank template on an image page.

If it is determined that the image does not qualify under fair use, it will be deleted within a couple of days according to our criteria for speedy deletion. If you have any questions please ask them at the media copyright questions page. Thank you.BetacommandBot (talk) 20:22, 13 February 2008 (UTC)

Non-free use rationale warnings

Please do not remove non-free use rationale warnings from images unless you provide a use rationale. The {{non-free logo}} tag is not a use rational. As the tag says “This tag is meaningless without an accompanying fair use rationale.” Without a use rationale the images will be deleted. —teb728 t c 20:00, 16 February 2008 (UTC)

Please read Misplaced Pages:Non-free content criteria and Misplaced Pages:Non-free use rationale guideline. Official Misplaced Pages policy requires an explicit non-free use rationale for all non-free images. This rationale must go well beyond saying that “certain uses” … “may qualify” as fair use. The rationale must show for each use that that specific use does qualify as fair use and furthermore conforms to Misplaced Pages’s much more stringent requirements for non-free content.
Strict enforcement of Wikimedia policy takes effect next month, and all non-conforming images will deleted. Burying your head in the sand will not prevent that. --—teb728 t c 21:03, 16 February 2008 (UTC)

re:Aznar family

I don't know what "Aznar family" means to you, but I only meant the "Aznars" as opposed to the "Seguins" as A. R. Lewis uses the terms to refer to two competing families for supremacy in Gascony. Srnec (talk) 04:26, 22 February 2008 (UTC)

I simply removed the term from the Aznar article. As to why I use "Spanish" forms instead of Basque or Gascon ones, the answer is simple. I have seen them in English sources. I have rarely encountered the Basque or Gascon ones and I presume it is b/c the Spanish one's are most recognisable (many people know that Sánchez is a patronymic for Sancho) and they are about as close or closer to the Latin of charters as the Basque/Gascon forms. 23:31, 22 February 2008 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Srnec (talkcontribs)

Fair use rationale for Image:Euskal Herritarrok logo.jpg

Thanks for uploading or contributing to Image:Euskal Herritarrok logo.jpg. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is not a suitable explanation or rationale as to why each specific use in Misplaced Pages constitutes fair use. Please go to the image description page and edit it to include a fair use rationale.

If you have uploaded other fair use media, consider checking that you have specified the fair use rationale on those pages too. You can find a list of 'image' pages you have edited by clicking on the "my contributions" link (it is located at the very top of any Misplaced Pages page when you are logged in), and then selecting "Image" from the dropdown box. Note that any non-free media lacking such an explanation will be deleted one week after they have been uploaded, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. If you have any questions please ask them at the Media copyright questions page. Thank you. Ricky81682 (talk) 09:15, 26 February 2008 (UTC)


Anti-globalization and antisemitism

You didn't need to add this page to Articles for deletion since you put a PROD tag on it. Also, you didn't place it on Articles for Deletion properly anyway -- you simply edited Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Furry fandom and tacked it on top instead of creating a new discussion. But that's okay, it's an easy mistake to make. If someone removes the PROD notice from this article, then I'll help you list it at AfD. Ten Pound Hammer and his otters23:35, 4 March 2008 (UTC)

  • Never mind, I see the article's been listed at AfD before; therefore, it's ineligible for PROD. I'll create a new AfD discussion using your rationale. Ten Pound Hammer and his otters23:35, 4 March 2008 (UTC)
  • The correct nomination, by the way, is here. Like I said, it's an easy mistake to make. For the record, PROD is just a quickie tag to place when you're positive that it's not a controversial decision -- with PROD, all you do is place the tag, and that's it. Ten Pound Hammer and his otters23:44, 4 March 2008 (UTC)

Kudos on your R1a Weasal catch

Just letting you know that I agree and support your decision to remove that info from the R1a article. Plese also take a moment to visit my talk page and leave some thoughts on the current state of geo-genetic info and how its being used on Misplaced Pages. I'm trying to build a consensus on the proper use of that info. Thanks.Geog1 (talk) 18:17, 7 March 2008 (UTC)Geog1

The actions of user Epf

Hello Sugaar! We seem to have a problem with User:Epf - he insists in saying that the Celtiberians were part of the Iberians, and has already been reverted several times by me and User:Tautintanes. His rationale is that they are a mix of Celts and Iberians, I presume. This editor seems to have a view of ethnicity based strongly on ancestry (or what he supposed the ancestry to be). He also tried to say that other eventually hispano-celts were Celtiberians (namely in Cantabri), as you very well konw since you were the one that reverted him. From other discussion I had with him and from the debate he started in French people (were not a single other editor agreed with him!) I reckon that this might be a subtle and disguised racialist view of some sort. I do not know what is he trying to accomplish. We have to look out for him. Cheers! The Ogre (talk) 08:37, 8 March 2008 (UTC)

There is no problem actually other than how I have noticed your own original research and POV which has no solid references in various articles on the peoples of Iberia. I am not a "racialist" and this has nothing to do with ethnicity being most often based strongly on ancestry or common descent. Few people would deny this and in fact Ogre, I had presumed you agreed with much of this ? Actually on the French people article, there were two other users who agreed with me if you noticed, plus no one really disagreed with me in the manner which Alun did (including yourself). Judging by your edits (and Sugaar's), I think you are the one who would in fact be disguised "racialists" pushing your own POV and improperly entering sources and images which are based mostly on your own opinions. There are very few scholars who deny that the culture of the Iberians spread across Iberia and most consider the Lustianians and others (minus the Aquitanians and Basques) to be Celtiberians. The Celtiberians were an Iberian people who had mixed with elements of Celtic culture, but it also incorporated aspects of Iberian culture and descent, hence CeltIBERIAN. Ciao, Epf (talk) 09:09, 8 March 2008 (UTC)

Hi, guys. I am not any God to solve your issues but I'll see if I can give a hand. In what regards to me: Celtiberians were Celtic-speakers of allegedly (Herodotus?) mixed origin. But that can be said of all other Celtic groups, at least in the Iberian peninsula. If they deserve a mention in the article it should be clear why (i.e. quoting the historical source) and also that they were not Iberians in the normal sense in any case. --Sugaar (talk) 04:54, 9 March 2008 (UTC)
Hy Sugaar. What you say is my position entirely. I also believe that the same could probably in fact be said about all the other Celts in Europe. The question here is that this user, Epf, with whom I always tried to dialogue in a reasonale manner and even propossed to work with him in an article about the Hispano-Celts (because he was trying to say that all the Celts in Iberia were Celtiberians and that Celtiberians were Iberians), and also lost some of my time trying to explain a lot of stuff about Iberia too,seem more intent in a non-cooperative, confrontational defense at all cost of his non-sourced ideas regarding the Pre-Roman peoples of the Iberian Peninsula then anything else. If you could come to Iberians I would appreciate. Thanks a lot. By the way I do hope the Genetic History WikiProject does come along - it would be of hep in many articles. Cheers! The Ogre (talk) 05:02, 9 March 2008 (UTC)
As you might have seem, Epf insists on adding the Baleares to the Iberians, but its articles on the Spanish and Catalan wikipedias say nothing about that - what can you tell about it? Thanks. The Ogre (talk) 05:18, 9 March 2008 (UTC)

I have not yet been able to check in depth the controversial article (I am right now immerse in another even more controversial dispute - en fin) but, regarding the Balearic islands, Ibiza and Formentera are one thing and the Baleares proper (Majorca and Minorca) are another:

  • The Pitiusas (Ibiza and Formentera) were in the post-Aragarian cultural area after c.1300 BCE and later under direct Phoenician influence (they even estabilished a colony there). I doubt they can be considered typical Iberians though hey must be related nevertheless.
  • The Baleares proper seem to have been a world apart but there's not much information anyhow. The Talayotic period (late Megalithism apparently original from Corsica) ended c. 700 BCE and my manual doesn't mention the islands after that. A couple of maps show findings in Majorca, near modern Palma, first of Urnfield burials (in line what you can find in other Eastern areas: isolated burials) and then some Phocean findings. That's all. They are never mentioned in relation with Iberians or Iberian culture. I guess that, unless other evidence is provided (and remember that the evidence must be provided by the one making the claim), they should be considered a separate group.

In this regard, it must be mentioned that my manual says that the rich Iberian culture surely exerted attraction for the peoples of the interior and mentions the case of the Celtiberians as most typical and best documented. He seems to imply that Celtiberian were Iberized Celts and not vice-versa (though, of course, it can be argued that, first, native "proto-Iberians" were Celtizied anyhow). --Sugaar (talk) 06:26, 9 March 2008 (UTC)

WikiProject Human Genetic History draft and vote

I created a draft version of WikiProject Human Genetic History; feel free to go to it and flesh it out. Also, given that there has been some comments about starting a task force inside of an existing WikiProject vs. a full-blown project, I've started an informal poll on the WikiProject proposal page. – Swid  00:27, 9 March 2008 (UTC)

More than just a little stupid

Sugaar, WRT your insinuations over at AN/I, it would be desirable if you did your homework. There may be a long story behind all this, and you will not be expected to dig deep into every imaginable archive, but why don't you just ask anybody with a few months of experience in this place? Bishzilla is Bishonen's alternative account, and Bishapod is Bishzilla's (sounds confusing? It isn't. All these accounts are in the hand of the same person). Nobody has ever tried to cover up anything about that. Furthermore there is no reason to believe that Yomangan(i) is a sockpuppet of that same person, as s/he has explained to you. And lastly, if you think Checkuser is an appropriate tool in such a harmless situation, kindly read the pertinent policies before making demands on others' time with these ill-founded requests. Please. 91.64.29.230 (talk) 19:09, 9 March 2008 (UTC)

You may be right - or not. I really don't know what to think. Why do Biszhilla and Fishapod talk the same unusual "slang", for instance. Would I be admin, I'd probably look at the issue more in depth.
The case is why are you writing here with an IP identity? Why would anybody try to hide under multiple accounts. Maybe there's a good reason but, since Bishapod/Little Stupid intervened in apparent bad faith, I would like to know exactly what is being cooked here.
And in any case, who are you? I find it terribly annoying this game of anonymity. I seriously doubt it is in the spirit of Misplaced Pages - not sure abut the letter. Definitively it doesn't go with my character: I like things clear. --Sugaar (talk) 06:44, 10 March 2008 (UTC)
That is fine and well and understandable. I will just say that I have reasons of my own to stay anonymous (there are horourable reasons, such as outspoken opinions that are not acceptable among people who know your username and know you personally), I have not been involved in these things and have not edited the pages discussed on AN/I. It would be entirely understandable if you found my behaviour sneaky, but I will just ask you to accept my explanation. 91.65.0.72 (talk) 07:18, 10 March 2008 (UTC)
Ok. I'll give you the benefit of doubt. But it's clear that all is very unclear. Are you the one behind Little Stupid/Bishapod? I don't think so because your tone is different, more conciliatory. But you seem to know about this issue more than I do in any case.
Would this presumpt sock/alt account not have intervened in an edit conflict (very undesirable but something I that has been imposed upon me), nothing of all that would have ever come to light - as I would not have needed to research about Little Stupid's real identity, with all those branchings leading to possibly other users.
If you want to give me a confidential explanation, please feel free to drop me an email. --Sugaar (talk) 07:31, 10 March 2008 (UTC)
No, I am not Little Stupid or Bishapod, nor any of the other users discussed, just someone who happens to have witnessed the goings-on recently. I see no evidence that there is anything more than inside jokes going on here. You may of course request further elucidation over at WP:AN, but honestly, I would not be extremely optimistic about that. 91.64.29.230 (talk) 16:53, 10 March 2008 (UTC)
What need research LS real identity? What business of Sugaar's? Little Stupid make good edit on Israel lobby in the United States, is all you need care about. Note: Little Stupid tell you several times that Thatcher is CheckUser who have already CheckUsered LS real identity. See how CheckUser Thatcher not worried about Stupid identity? Why you worry about it all the time? Comment on content, not on the contributor. bishapod splash! 21:51, 10 March 2008 (UTC).
Please use your real identity and speak proper English. It is not funny but rather ofensive that you treat people like that. I really can't believe that you are being tolerated this abuse.

Please, do not spam my user page with multiple identies and babble. It's really annoying and could fall under WP:PA and WP:CIV. You may think you are funny but... you aren't. --Sugaar (talk) 15:36, 12 March 2008 (UTC)

User:Bishonen is a longstanding and first-rate admin and article writer who has the full trust of the community. Unfortunately, she is mad at Misplaced Pages (or parts of it anyway) right now and not contributing as she used to. User talk:Bishzilla is Bish's very well-known and fully accepted sock-puppet for having fun and generating incredible hilarity. User:Bishapod is Bishzilla's sock so that Bishzilla could have a sock too. More fun ensues. User:Little Stupid is another name for Bishapod.
Literally almost everyone knows who the owner is when these names show up and no-one is really going to object. Bishonen is well aware of what she's doing. It takes a while to learn these things, for sure. The best bet with Little Stupid or Bishapod is probably to offer them a plush toy, or a puppy to give their master Bishzilla. (Bishzilla nice monster, not eat little Franamax for telling this please) If we can get Bishzilla to eat the puppy, she might ask her master Bishonen pretty-please come back to Misplaced Pages. Does that help? Franamax (talk) 00:55, 11 March 2008 (UTC)
I don't know what you understand as "the community" but she doesn't have my trust since she uses sockpuppets to intervene in content disputes and somehow this is tolerated by administrators, who close the case on the pretext of "frivolity". You know I am right.
You cannot claim that what a handful of people consider valid is what "everyone knows". Misplaced Pages has maybe millions of contributors: a clique is not the community. The community is all who make Wikipdia possible - and obviously most have never heard (luckily) of this sockpupeetering abuse by an administrator.
And I don't find it funny in any case. Just stupid. But I don't care about that as long as it's not used to intervene in a content dispute (or to spam my userpage with Yoda-like babble). Once she starts with that, she is fully in the case of using sockpuppets for illegitimate purposes.
I know that WP:SOCK states that LS's (and therefore Bishonen's, if what you say is true) actuation is a breach of policy. Some administrators may be wrong in their undue leniency in this case.
I am not going to play that stupid game you say: this is Misplaced Pages not Freakypedia, please! We are editing an encyclopedia, not playing games that I can only describe as schizoid emotional blackmail and freaky childish games.
Let's be serious: there are other places than Misplaced Pages to play your strange games, really. --Sugaar (talk) 15:36, 12 March 2008 (UTC)

Edit warring

I'd suggest discussion and not edit warring on Misplaced Pages:Call a spade a spade. No consensus for the edits you reverted to. You've been around, so I'm sure you're familiar with WP:CON and WP:3RR. Dreadstar 07:12, 10 March 2008 (UTC)

There was no consensus for your additions certainly. That's why I reverted you: you are decaffeinating that most interesting essay and you could at least step down to the talk page to discuss those radical edits you tried to make. --Sugaar (talk) 07:16, 10 March 2008 (UTC)
Um, they weren't "my" additions, they were additions by another editor; . Get your facts straight before you start making accusations and edit warring. Dreadstar 07:19, 10 March 2008 (UTC)

Map for Pre-Roman Iberia

Hello Sugaar! Thnks for your input regarding the question of the maps for Pre-Roman Iberia. I'm quite busy right now, so I won't be able to give it its due attention. But I do want to pick up on your suggestion "to positivize this discussion and draw an even better map". That was my objective all along. I have no special preference for the map I made, I just thought it better then that other one you yourselve said it was losy. I'll get back to you as soon as I can. Cheers! The Ogre (talk) 06:39, 11 March 2008 (UTC)

Barnstars survey

Hi Sugaar. I'm running a small survey about wikipedian barnstars. If you have the time, I would really appreciate you taking a look and participating. The survey can be found here. Thank you! Bestchai (talk) 02:00, 12 March 2008 (UTC)

Thanks for the feedback. I received a few replies such as yours, saying that the information is simply not applicable to the way barnstars are given out In our analysis, we've seen a few patterns to barnstar texts -- there are those that target very specific work or actions and therefore can't be captured with rudimentary statistics, and others that are very generic, targeting status attainment or long patterns of work that can be easily gleamed from a person's edit stats. The poll is unfortunately limited, but coming up with a controlled experiment/survey for understanding barnstar granting behaviour is rather challenging. Thanks again for participating and giving me comments. Bestchai (talk) 18:01, 12 March 2008 (UTC)
By the way, I forgot to ask you as to how you would go about deciding whether 'someone is doing a good job'? If the statistics are noise, what information about an editor is useful to you in awarding barnstars? Bestchai (talk) 23:20, 12 March 2008 (UTC)

Speedy deletion of Image:Al Andalus.gif

A tag has been placed on Image:Al Andalus.gif requesting that it be speedily deleted from Misplaced Pages. This has been done under section I8 of the criteria for speedy deletion, because it is available as a bit-for-bit identical copy on the Wikimedia Commons under the same name, or all references to the image on Misplaced Pages have been updated to point to the title used at Commons.

If you think that this notice was placed here in error, you may contest the deletion by adding {{hangon}} to the top of the page (just below the existing speedy deletion or "db" tag), coupled with adding a note on ] explaining your position, but be aware that once tagged for speedy deletion, if the article meets the criterion it may be deleted without delay. Please do not remove the speedy deletion tag yourself, but don't hesitate to add information to the article that would would render it more in conformance with Misplaced Pages's policies and guidelines. Lastly, please note that if the article does get deleted, you can contact one of these admins to request that a copy be emailed to you. Sdrtirs (talk) 22:54, 9 April 2008 (UTC)

Speedy deletion of Image:Iberia Bronze.gif

A tag has been placed on Image:Iberia Bronze.gif requesting that it be speedily deleted from Misplaced Pages. This has been done under section I8 of the criteria for speedy deletion, because it is available as a bit-for-bit identical copy on the Wikimedia Commons under the same name, or all references to the image on Misplaced Pages have been updated to point to the title used at Commons.

If you think that this notice was placed here in error, you may contest the deletion by adding {{hangon}} to the top of the page (just below the existing speedy deletion or "db" tag), coupled with adding a note on ] explaining your position, but be aware that once tagged for speedy deletion, if the article meets the criterion it may be deleted without delay. Please do not remove the speedy deletion tag yourself, but don't hesitate to add information to the article that would would render it more in conformance with Misplaced Pages's policies and guidelines. Lastly, please note that if the article does get deleted, you can contact one of these admins to request that a copy be emailed to you. Sdrtirs (talk) 00:48, 10 April 2008 (UTC)

Speedy deletion of Image:Iberia Late Bronze.gif

A tag has been placed on Image:Iberia Late Bronze.gif requesting that it be speedily deleted from Misplaced Pages. This has been done under section I8 of the criteria for speedy deletion, because it is available as a bit-for-bit identical copy on the Wikimedia Commons under the same name, or all references to the image on Misplaced Pages have been updated to point to the title used at Commons.

If you think that this notice was placed here in error, you may contest the deletion by adding {{hangon}} to the top of the page (just below the existing speedy deletion or "db" tag), coupled with adding a note on ] explaining your position, but be aware that once tagged for speedy deletion, if the article meets the criterion it may be deleted without delay. Please do not remove the speedy deletion tag yourself, but don't hesitate to add information to the article that would would render it more in conformance with Misplaced Pages's policies and guidelines. Lastly, please note that if the article does get deleted, you can contact one of these admins to request that a copy be emailed to you. Sdrtirs (talk) 00:50, 10 April 2008 (UTC)

Speedy deletion of Image:VNSP.gif

A tag has been placed on Image:VNSP.gif requesting that it be speedily deleted from Misplaced Pages. This has been done under section I8 of the criteria for speedy deletion, because it is available as a bit-for-bit identical copy on the Wikimedia Commons under the same name, or all references to the image on Misplaced Pages have been updated to point to the title used at Commons.

If you think that this notice was placed here in error, you may contest the deletion by adding {{hangon}} to the top of the page (just below the existing speedy deletion or "db" tag), coupled with adding a note on ] explaining your position, but be aware that once tagged for speedy deletion, if the article meets the criterion it may be deleted without delay. Please do not remove the speedy deletion tag yourself, but don't hesitate to add information to the article that would would render it more in conformance with Misplaced Pages's policies and guidelines. Lastly, please note that if the article does get deleted, you can contact one of these admins to request that a copy be emailed to you. Sdrtirs (talk) 16:26, 10 April 2008 (UTC)

Edits on the Basque People page

Sugaar, could you take a look at the discussion regarding some deletes by Narsil on the Basque people page and tell me what you think? Eskerrik asko! Akerbeltz (talk) 15:28, 16 May 2008 (UTC)

Ok. --Sugaar (talk) 19:03, 16 May 2008 (UTC)
Thanks for your input! I think we can agree on some common ground, the 2 sections in questions were a bit oddly worded after all. ...so much to do and so little time to do it. I wonder if Britannica has editors as diligent as wiki ; ) Akerbeltz (talk) 22:00, 16 May 2008 (UTC)
Yah, the entries can surely be improved with other stuff and maybe there's no need to include all those quotes as such. But what Narsil is admittedly doing is crusading against Gimbutas and anything that sounds to "feminism". I guess that if he's doing the same all around the Wiki, he will have soon his personal page full of warnings. --Sugaar (talk) 04:23, 17 May 2008 (UTC)

LOL it'll be his own fault. Mind, the Gimbutas quotes do sound a bit new-age. She could have been a little less populist and more scientific but then, she wanted the book to sell. Akerbeltz (talk) 15:56, 6 June 2008 (UTC)

Mural art map

Just something that crossed my mind if you ever have a week to spare - I think it would be interesting if you could overlay your Upper Paleolihic Art in Europe map with known locations of cave systems. You know, atm it looks like there are significant clusters but while looking at it it just crossed my mind that it might just be down to the fact there are no caves elsewhere. Just a thought though! Akerbeltz (talk) 15:56, 6 June 2008 (UTC)

Cannabis Culture & Cost

Eleven years ago The Ottawa Citizen published four consecutive Editorials in four days calling for the legalization of Cannabis. Calling the Editor to commend him for such bold action, it was suggested an article be submitted for payment if published on the Op-Ed page. On submission, the Editor said, "Now we're going to have to shit or get of the pot."

It was published as a Letter To The Editor with the heart and guts edited out so that no reader would have a clear perspective or understanding of the issue. If you're interested, you can read the article in the discussion here http://en.wikipedia.org/Ray_Joseph_Cormier and maybe comment on the images in the article. Peace

Vitoria-Gasteiz

Need your comment on this Talk:Vitoria, Spain#Requested_move. Milesker. Zorion talk 20:11, 8 August 2008 (UTC) I guess we need your support. Zorion talk 16:40, 10 August 2008 (UTC)

Neolithic migrations map

Hi. nice map. I wanted to know where you encountered the term thessalio-Danubian group in relation to the movement of farmers from within the Balkans. ? Hxseek (talk) 02:33, 14 October 2008 (UTC)

It's an old map. I coined the term myself, I think. Balcano-Danubian would be more correct surely. The use of "Thesalian" refers to this Greek region being aat the origin, apparently, of Balcanic Neolithic. But nowadays I'd rather use "Balcanic".
Glad you liked it anyhow. --Sugaar (talk) 02:56, 14 October 2008 (UTC)

Yeah. I came across the term Danube-Morava-Vardar river basin complex in a genetics paper. Apparently these farmers might have propagated haplotype E3b across Europe. Cheers Hxseek (talk) 21:43, 14 October 2008 (UTC)

There's actually another focus of E1b1b (former E3b) in southern Spain, whose early Neolithic may have arrived from North Africa (and later propagated somewhat through the Megalithic macro-cultural network). But you are right for E-V13, that has an apparent "Greek" origin (though it's actually more common among neighbouring Albanians, generally speaking) and it's basically spread through the Balcans and Danubian basin (what basically excludes later Greek maritime colonization). Enjoy. --Sugaar (talk) 19:06, 15 October 2008 (UTC)


Ah, yes. But the focus of E3b in spain is different subclade, and different migration pattern and time from that in the Balkans. Spaniards have the M-78, V-12 clade which might have spread way back , like 15 kYa , possibly via a direct, trans-Meditteranean migration from northern Africa. Another clade, present in variable frequencies, is the m-81 clade- the so-called "Berber" gene reflecting migrations of Moors during Al-Anadalus, as well as Sephardic Jews.

In contrast, Balkan E3b is the M-78, V-13. Cruciani thinks it originated in Anaolia 10kYa, but expanded and grew within the Balkans, spreading later, c. 5.3 kYa. Its high frequency amongst Albanians is nothing special, just a founder effect, because Albanians have been a small, biologically isolated people throughout history. J2e, is the postulated marker of Greek maritime expansion during Neolithic and Bronze age.

Peace.

Hxseek (talk) 22:54, 15 October 2008 (UTC)

AFAIK all the Iberian E subclades are of North African origin (exception of minor E-V13 traces that must be of Greek or maybe Phoenician origin). But (as I do not believe in the solidity of the conclusions of the Molecular Clock hypothesis, almost always contradictory internally and in regard to archaeology), I doubt those datations you provide are correct. Let's see:
There is no evidence whatsoever of any North African migration to Iberia as early as 15,000 BP. The opposite may be true (Iberomaurusian) but should not relate with E clades. Iberian (excluding Franco-Cantabrian region) Upper Paleolithic is a succesion of waves from the North: not just Aurignacian and Gravettian arrived from the North (and ultimately from the East) but also Solutrean (strongly Gravettized in Iberia), Magdalenian and Epipaleolithic cultural waves (Azilian and Tardenoisian derived).
Instead there is a not popularized (but very real) South Iberian Neolithic that pre-dates Cardium Pottery and that (for lack of any other explanation, cereals and legumes appear already developed: no local evolution certainly) must have arrived from ill-researched North Africa. Relations with North Africa were also rather strong later within the Megalithic macro-culture of the Chalcolithic era, and of course later under Phoenician, Roman and Muslim rule. But I would not agree with claiming all that North African blood in Iberia just to Islamic rule: that's clearly oversimplistic. In fact I think that most of it has Neolithic roots instead (but not Paleolithic - archaeologically "impossible").
Neolithic was in fact a good moment for founder effects like these because the agriculturalists, even if they assimilated many natives (as is attested by the archaological record, at least in Mediterranean Europe), also had some decisive economical advantage that would make sure that such minority arrivals would become numerous enough to persist through the centuries. In the case of Iberia, certainly this North African founder effect was reinforced later on but it is way too common to be attributed only to recent immigrants, who, as conquerors of farmer peoples, were necesarily a small minority.
North Africans arrived to Iberia in the Muslim period in relatively large numbers but almost always with privileged status (troops specially), not as farmers, that in the old times were always like 90% of the people. As privileged classes, they also were probably much more likely to emigrate than to accept defeat. While the number of Muslims in Al Andalus was important after several centuries of Emirate and Caliphate, most were local converts, who were then reconverted by grade or force. Of course, Muslim rule must had some genetic impact, I won't deny that, but not necesarily much more than Roman or Carthaginian rule, or than the strong and well attested economic and cultural links in the Chalcolithic or the Neolithic founder effects. The straits were sailed through once and again... since Neolithic (but not before, unless the Iberomaurusian/Oranian can be confirmed as original from Iberia - and only in that case).
Enjoy, --Sugaar (talk) 07:58, 18 October 2008 (UTC)

Certainly very interesting. My information was what Cruciani found in his last study. Of course all such studies should be taken with a grain of salt, as the confidence intervals of supposed 'ages' of the haplogroups are so variable that the conclusiosn consequently derived can be very different.I did not state that all "african' blood in Iberia was due to the Moors. Probably ancient migrations from nth Africa are more likely, although the time may be dabatle, as Cruciani's conclusion of 15 kYa apparently does not fit any archaeological evidence. And , yes, ther was an expansion of E3b V-13 from the Balkans to Spain, ? perhaps via Greek colonizers.

The classical Greek presence in Iberia was limited to a couple of Massalian outposts at the eastern Pyrenean coast. They were active as traders in other areas anyhow. Another epysode of Greek direct influence surely happened in the Middle Bronce Age, when El Argar culture adopted burialpractices of Mycenaean Greece. But all this Greek influence appears centered in the East, the South at most, and the actual area of greater E-V13 in Iberia is the West (Portugal, Galicia, Asturias). So it may be a Neolithic founder effect arrived with Cardium Pottery - not sure. It's a small clade anyhow. --Sugaar (talk) 14:51, 23 October 2008 (UTC)

I am not much of an archaeologist. The gravettian and aurignacian culture articles here on wiki are crap, haven't learnt much from them. Were they both pan-European cultures ? In know they might have co-existed in western Europe, c. 25 kYa. Apparently, during the LGM, the Gravettian culture existed only in central Europe/ western Balkans.

Hxseek (talk) 23:25, 22 October 2008 (UTC)
I know that the Paleolithic articles are quite crappy but I have not been motivated as of late to edit Misplaced Pages a lot.
Aurignacian is pan-European, except Eastern Europe, that was then scarcely populated (origin in either the Levant or Central/West Asia). Gravettian (origin unknown, splinter in Central Europe) is really pan-European and even spans into West Asia (Caucasus, Zagros) in form of Epigravettian and has some Siberian offshots too (Altai). Solutrean is resricted to the Franco-Cantabrian region (where it surely originated), with offshots in Iberia (gravettized - maybe at the origin of North African Oranian culture) and Hungary. Magdalenian (origin Franco-Cantabrian region, maybe with Central European late Aurignacian influences) finally includes all Western and Central Europe but excludes Italy, the Balcans and Eastern Europe, that remained "Epigravettian". Epipaleolithic cultures all evolved form either Magdalenian or Epigravettian. --Sugaar (talk) 14:51, 23 October 2008 (UTC)

Just read the Prehistoric Iberia page. Very informative. Hxseek (talk) 00:28, 23 October 2008 (UTC)

Hope it's still in good shape. The good and the bad of Misplaced Pages is that anyone can edit it. --Sugaar (talk) 14:51, 23 October 2008 (UTC)

Do you suppose that the spread of the carium pottery culture was a seperate route of spread to the "Balkan " farmers which spread Vincha culture to central Europe ? Hxseek (talk) 03:23, 2 December 2008 (UTC)

It's very evident. Also (very important) Vinca is distinct from the Balcan-Danubian early Neolithic inland wave. Vinca-Dimini is a second layer that may have been an invasion (some burnt villages, specially in Thessaly, a totally different pottery, first male "god" icons...) and has a limited scope: Northern Greece, Macedonia, Serbia - and a more hybrid and late influence in Syrmia and parts of Hungary. The Black-Beige pottery and other elements of Dimini-Vinca are unknown in the Adriatic (Cardium/Epicardial), the Eastern Balcans (that adopt Danubian cultural influenes instead) or anywhere in the Central European Danubian (Western Linear Pottery) cultural area.
In any case, while the origins of Cardium and Balcano-Danubian Neolithic might have been mixed (it's kind of obscure but some Cardium pottery is found in early Sesklo, "proto-Sesklo" for some), the consolidation and diffusion of both waves is clearly distinct:
(1) Balcanic (and derived Danubian) macro-culture expands through the inland routes into the Danubian basin and then farther west and north (as "Danubian", a culture that is significaively modified yet clearly derived from Balcanic Neolithic).
(2) Cardium pottery not only has a totally distinct style of pottery (no painting, engraving instead) but also a more tight dependence on sheep/goat and very specially on fishing (they are the first Europeans known to have ever fished in the high seas, far away from the coast, what implies a relatively advance navigation capability). Their more clear source is the Adriatic Balcans (coastal Albania, Montenegro, Dalmatia and most of Bosnia), from where they expanded along the coasts into (sequentially) Southern Italy, Central Italy, Sardinia and Corsica, SE France and Eastern Spain, with some remains also found in Northern Africa and in Iberia further west. This expansion nevertheless is very clear to have in most cases absorbed rather than displaced the natives (Cardium-Imprinted pottery style but with local Epipaleolithic stone tools), though there are some spots that appear true colonizations.
Regards, --Sugaar (talk) 15:52, 2 December 2008 (UTC)
Forgot: Cardium people also expanded into Northern Italy but in this case seems more of an inland migration directly from the Western Balcans. --Sugaar (talk) 15:58, 2 December 2008 (UTC)


Right. So the Vincha culture is a seperate entity to the balkan culture ? Coz on the simplified Neolithic Europe map, the Vincha culture covers most of the balkans. If the Vincha is a seperate to the Baclkan - Danubian, what do we propose are its origins ? Hxseek (talk) 21:35, 2 December 2008 (UTC)

Not 100% separated, rather a new layer, probably caused by some invasion but certainly on the older early Neolithic substrate. There's clear discontinuity but also many elements persist. A deep transformation under a newly arrived influx in any case. They are also detected (simlar situation) in southern Anatolia (Can Hassan).
I use "Vinca", because that's what best approaches the Serbocroat spelling and is often found that way in English or Spanish too. But the pronunciation is certainly "Vincha" (VEEN-cha). It's not just Vinca but also Dimini in Thessaly (whose Bronze Age offspring, Rakhmani culture, persisted until just before the Mycenaean period) and other less famous cultural groups in Macedonia and highland Albania. They are all clearly related in origin.
Among the area of early Balcanic (Sesklo-derived) Neolithic (that excludes the Adriatic), who were not influenced by this wave, fell under the influence (also very strong) of Danubian Neolithic. True that in the first moment there seems to be also some Vinca-Dimini influence (not the purest version anyhow) in Bulgaria but in the Late Neolithic map you can see that area has become yellow (Danubian by the color code I used). It seems that in Boian culture of Wallachia became very expansive, probably as reaction to the Vinca-Dimini influence (this last is my speculation in any case) absorbing the anyhow continous Bulgarian cultural group (nation?) into the Boian-Marica (or Boian-Maritza) culture, that replaces the Vinca-Dimini influence by a Danubian one, while keeping the peculiarity of this group, somewhat distinct since the very beginning.
Origins of Dimini-Vinca? Obscure. Nevertheless there is a clearly related group in southern Anatolia (Can Hassan, also intrusive) and therefore it's been speculated that they may have arrived from West Asia. But their exact genesis is not known. In some anthropometrical paper I've browsed recently the Vinca remains appeared more related to Syria than anywhere else and rather apart from the main Balcanic trends. That's all I can say. --Sugaar (talk) 22:13, 2 December 2008 (UTC)

Thanks mate Hxseek (talk) 04:31, 3 December 2008 (UTC)

Magdalenian

Hello and seasons greetings. Quick qustion- was the Magdalenian culture the main culture of Iberia during the LGM (20-14kYa) ? Hxseek (talk) 09:10, 27 December 2008 (UTC)

Iberia must be treated as two separate main regions: the Cantabrian region, very closely related to southern France (Franco-Cantabrian region as a whole), of Atlantic climate nowadays (my English apartment-mate is surprised of how much it rains here - so far from the topical idea of "sunny Spain"), and the properly Iberian region along the Mediterranean coast. Additonally there are a handful of sites elsewhere, specially near Lisbon, that sometimes appear related to one or the other.
The Iberian (Mediterranean) province appears mostly as secondary to the Franco-Cantabrian one (much more important and densely populated overall) but with some noticeable peculiarities. It was first colonized by H. sapiens in the Aurignacian but with a very scattered pattern and low density. The main wave may have arrived only in the Gravettian (Cro-Magnon type), culture that rooted deeply there.
In the LGM it is one of the first spots where Solutrean appears (soon after Dordogne) but this Solutrean became intensely "gravettized" soon after. The peculiar Gravetto-Solutrean of this area was probably the origin of North African Oranian culture, at least in my opinion .
Magdalenian arrived only late there, almost in the Epipaleolithic (Parpalloan). Soon after we see the so-called "microlinear" microlithism (directly related to Azilian of the Franco-Cantabrian region) and then the "geomtric" one (derived from Tardenoisian culture of Middle Western Europe, that also influenced the Franco-Cantabrian region). Nevertheless the sites of microlinear and geometric Epipaleolithic are all different, what may mean two populations living side by side before the arrival of Neolithic.
Hope this helps. --Sugaar (talk) 09:52, 27 December 2008 (UTC)

Requested Move of Mezquita de Córdoba ‎

I just requested a move of Mezquita de Córdoba to Great Mosque of Cordoba ‎ because this is an English language encyclopedia. I though you would agree.Historicist (talk) 19:03, 30 October 2008 (UTC)Historicist

Iruña-Veleia

Kaixo Sugaar! Puedes mover tu mapa que muetra la localización de Iruña-Veleia a Commons? más que nada para poder ponerla en en otras wikis. Mila esker eta gero arte--Xaverius 14:19, 27 November 2008 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Medievalista (talkcontribs)

Move it yourself. I'm inactive. Anyhow, if the map has legend in English, it should not be moved but copied into a language-neutral format. --Sugaar (talk) 04:55, 28 November 2008 (UTC)

Some Spanish Nationalist nonsense

(Originally titled: "* tus estupideces en la pagina de carlos V *", or in English "your idiocies in the page of Charles V - changed by the owner of the page for aesthetic reasons --Sugaar (talk) 05:29, 7 July 2009 (UTC)).

It's true that many modern authors use the term Spain way too liberally, falling in absurd anachronisms. This is partly fuelled by the nationalist ideology of modern Spain (with all the romanticism involved in such phenomenons: amplifying the nimious and minimzing the obvious) and the general perception that the seed of this modern state was already there since the late 15th century (marriage of Ferdinand and Isabella). --Sugaar 13:17, 3 December 2007 (UTC) But formally there was no such "kingdom" at all at least until Philip II.

JAJAJAJAJAJA claro, Por eso Soliman el magnifico no reconocia a carlos V por el titulo imperial sino como rey de España "ispanya" no HISPANIA. así lo vemos en el estudio de la hispanista Özlem Kumrular, de la Universidad del Bósforo (Boğaziçi Üniversitesi): Carlos V y Solimán el Magnífico: dos soberanos en lucha por un poder universal, y en el libro El imperio otomano 1300-1650 de Colin Imber (Ediciones B), 2004, según consta en la página 69, y en la página 137.

que vivan las vascongadas. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 89.7.100.94 (talk) 10:20, 30 March 2009 (UTC)

That's not any official title. Turkey did not exist either before Ataturk, no matter the name was occasionally used to refer to the Ottoman Empire.

In any case, please, write in English, be polite and constructive and sign your comments. --Sugaar (talk) 05:29, 7 July 2009 (UTC)

Violencia

Hola, te he respondido en la página de discusión Talk:Sea Shepherd Conservation Society a la pregunta que haces sobre la violencia, pero ahora que veo que hablas español, creo que es mejor responderte aquí en un idioma que domino que allí en uno que apenas chapurreo.

Pues si, la violencia contra la propiedad es violencia legalmente (no he leído el artículo entero, así que asumo por tu comentario a que se refiere a violencia de ese tipo). Esto en España es así, y lo he oído en boca de activistas pro derechos de los animales, que tienen que saber para luego poder asumir las consecuencias lo que es y lo que no es delito (cortar un candado, como ellos decían, se consideraría un acto violento aunque este no cueste ni un euro, así que teniendo en cuenta cuantos sitios hay disponibles para hacer rescates abiertos sin tener que hacer nada más que entrar y llevarse un animal, evitaban siempre hacer ese tipo de actividades de esa manera). Y en Estados Unidos diría que también se considera violencia, porque Tom Regan menciona (en su libro "Jaulas Vacías") que, de acuerdo a lo que se entiende por violencia (y cita alguna definición de diccionario), muchos de los actos que hace el ALF son claramente violentos.

Lo que las personas que se sienten molestos con este término suelen hacer en estas situaciones es matizar con un "contra la propiedad", para que se aclare que con "violencia" no se entiende lo que la gente suele entender por ella (agresión contra quienes pueden sentirla).

Veo que de todos modos, NRen2k5 ha dejado después de mi comentario una cita de otro artículo que creo confirma mis palabras (aunque aun tampoco la he leído entera).

Saludos. Akhran (talk) 17:15, 11 June 2009 (UTC)

Normalmente prefiero comunicarme aquí en inglés, de forma que todo el mundo pueda entender. De todas maneras, que sea un delito no implica que sea "violencia". Cortar el tráfico u ocupar un edificio puede ser delito pero no es violencia. Gandhi cuando inició sus campañas de desobediencia noviolenta lo hizo cometiendo delitos, como hacer sal. La diferencia con un criminal normal es que ellos lo hacían abiertamentamente con la intención de protestar y asumiendo las consecuencias (ir a la cárcel o lo que sea).
Eso es noviolencia: resistencia activa, incluso técncamente criminal a veces pero sin matar, herir o violentar de cualquier otra manera a nadie. Yo tengo bastante experiencia en campañas y acciones noviolentas e incluyen asaltar cuarteles o locales de partidos (sin herir a nadie, usando la sorpresa y tácticas así), no acudir a obligaciones legales como el servicio militar, que pueden llegar a ser delito y sin duda ilegales. El que la actividad sea delictiva o no, no es lo que define la violencia. Matar judíos, gitanos, gays y rojos varios en Matthaussen era perfectamente legal pero extremadamente violento, la Satygraha de Gandhi era ilegal, criminal, pero noviolenta.
La gente que pretende hacer creer que cualquier acto que sea técnicamente ilegal es "violencia" simplemente trata de echar mierda sobre la resistencia noviolenta: trata de desactivar, de volver una forma de lucha tremendamente poderosa en algo sin fuerza. Es un cachondeo!
--Sugaar (talk) 12:39, 30 September 2009 (UTC)

Call for opinion on a neutrality accusation in a human genetics related article

As a member of the WikiProject HGH may I ask for opinions on this accusation?--Andrew Lancaster (talk) 11:59, 27 June 2009 (UTC)

Discussion on September 11 attacks terminated

Hello Sugaar, These past few days, I was involved in a discussion on the page Talk:September 11 attacks#Allegedly carried out by Al Qaeda and this morning I learnt that someone had decided to terminate it abruptly. I couldn't help noticing the same thing happening to you. In both cases, the enforcer goes by the name of Tarage and I find his attitude both offensive and impolite. He behaves like a thug, don't you agree? As it seems you've been a wikipedian longer than I am, I was wondering if you were aware of any recourse to have the closure submitted to an administrator or if we should just give up —in disgust as far as I am concerned. Sincerely, Oclupak (talk) 11:52, 6 December 2009 (UTC)

    • Hello again, Sugaar. I realize I made a mistake. The section which has been archived is not the one you were involved in but another one below it. All the same, I saw your post expressing your desire to leave Misplaced Pages. I too am disgusted by the attitude of those who seem to be in charge. I don't know what I'll do. Oclupak (talk) 12:10, 6 December 2009 (UTC)

Vitoria-Gasteiz part 2

Despite having edited articles off-and-on for about 5 years now, this is still a major part of Misplaced Pages culture that I just don't "get". I tried to piece together form Talk:Vitoria-Gasteiz why that article is entitled what it is. Here's the chronology I inferred:

  • Someone came along and, for whatever motives, renamed Vitoria-Gasteiz to Vitoria, Spain.
  • Someone proposed a move back.
  • A few people said that, hey, the person shouldn't have moved it without consensus but now that they did, it's an appropriate title.
  • A few more people, including you, said that it's an inappropriate title.
  • Because consensus wasn't reached, the article didn't move.

So the unilateral actor wins the dispute. The prize for not following WP custom of consensus building is that you get your way.

What am I missing here? I agree strongly that you're correct on the merits of the naming, and more to the point this example shows why I get bored with Misplaced Pages so fast. If there's a de facto unwritten rule here, it seems to be that the squeakiest wheel gets the grease. This is a huge hole in Misplaced Pages IMO.

FWIW it's easy to Google an example from 2001 where the BBC plainly agrees with us . IMO their style matters far more than what a million historians call the Battle of Vitoria, because it's actually a contemporary English usage!

At any rate, I've brought up the question again on Talk:Vitoria-Gasteiz - Regards, PhilipR (talk) 09:24, 9 January 2010 (UTC)

Oh, never mind, I see you don't edit Misplaced Pages any longer. Can't say I blame you. - Regards, PhilipR (talk) 19:53, 9 January 2010 (UTC)

Basque archaeology

Hello, my name is Dmitri Lytov, I am interested in European prehistory. I appreciate your contribution to the English Misplaced Pages on prehistoric topics and, as you may have noticed, I have already translated some of your prehistoric articles. May I ask you one thing: I prepared an article on prehistory of the Basque region, which was published in Basque. If you can read in Basque, can you please comment just a little? Regards and greetings from Saint Petersburg, Russia. --Dmitri Lytov (talk) 20:40, 19 February 2010 (UTC)

Hello, Sugaar. Please check your email; you've got mail!
It may take a few minutes from the time the email is sent for it to show up in your inbox. You can remove this notice at any time by removing the {{You've got mail}} or {{ygm}} template.

UOJComm (talk) 01:24, 20 June 2011 (UTC)

File:Franco-Cantabrian region.gif

Hi, you createt the map File:Franco-Cantabrian region.gif. Thanks allot! Do you have the GPS Coordinates for the red dots? On WP/de I am preparing a list of all those sites: de:Benutzer:Zulu55/Höhlenmalerei: Fundorte in Frankreich. Greetings --Zulu55en (talk) 09:38, 22 August 2013 (UTC)

Notification of automated file description generation

Your upload of File:Ancient Basque tribes.gif or contribution to its description is noted, and thanks (even if belatedly) for your contribution. In order to help make better use of the media, an attempt has been made by an automated process to identify and add certain information to the media's description page.

This notification is placed on your talk page because a bot has identified you either as the uploader of the file, or as a contributor to its metadata. It would be appreciated if you could carefully review the information the bot added. To opt out of these notifications, please follow the instructions here. Thanks! Message delivered by Theo's Little Bot (opt-out) 11:53, 25 December 2013 (UTC)


A Barnstar For You!

Basque Barnstar of National Merit
Although you are no longer active, I must show my appreciation and respect by awarding you with this barnstar. eskerrik asko! Original European 11:36, 24 February 2014 (UTC)

Proposed deletion of Biltzar

The article Biltzar has been proposed for deletion because of the following concern:

Misplaced Pages is not a dictionary and this article is little more than X means Y in Basque.

While all constructive contributions to Misplaced Pages are appreciated, content or articles may be deleted for any of several reasons.

You may prevent the proposed deletion by removing the {{proposed deletion/dated}} notice, but please explain why in your edit summary or on the article's talk page.

Please consider improving the article to address the issues raised. Removing {{proposed deletion/dated}} will stop the proposed deletion process, but other deletion processes exist. In particular, the speedy deletion process can result in deletion without discussion, and articles for deletion allows discussion to reach consensus for deletion. Sam Walton (talk) 11:29, 30 March 2015 (UTC)

ArbCom elections are now open!

Hi,
You appear to be eligible to vote in the current Arbitration Committee election. The Arbitration Committee is the panel of editors responsible for conducting the Misplaced Pages arbitration process. It has the authority to enact binding solutions for disputes between editors, primarily related to serious behavioural issues that the community has been unable to resolve. This includes the ability to impose site bans, topic bans, editing restrictions, and other measures needed to maintain our editing environment. The arbitration policy describes the Committee's roles and responsibilities in greater detail. If you wish to participate, you are welcome to review the candidates' statements and submit your choices on the voting page. For the Election committee, MediaWiki message delivery (talk) 12:53, 23 November 2015 (UTC)

Letting you know

That you have been added on Missing Wikipedians. IMiss2010 (talk) 14:15, 29 March 2022 (UTC)

Categories: