Revision as of 12:11, 19 December 2019 editRGloucester (talk | contribs)Extended confirmed users, Page movers, Pending changes reviewers38,757 edits →Belligerents versus suppliers in infobox: r← Previous edit |
Latest revision as of 17:23, 4 January 2025 edit undoManyareasexpert (talk | contribs)Extended confirmed users, Pending changes reviewers3,275 edits →References to TASS: reply: Specific phrases please? (-)Tag: CD |
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* RM, War in Donbas → War in Donbas (2014–2022), '''Moved''', 5 June 2022, ] |
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* RM, War in Donbas (2014–2022) → War in Donbas, '''Moved''', 17 October 2023, ] |
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== Infobox end date == |
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What's the precedent for a war being subsumed by another war? When there's a battle, there's start and end dates, and you can implicitly tell its part of a larger war, but titling an article "War in <location>" and having an end date in that infobox seems to suggest the "war" ended, when it didn't actually end, that phase of the war was eclipsed by the much larger invasion. Also, I don't think the "Major combat operations phase ended on 20 February 2015" is very relevant, there was sporadic levels of fighting all throughout 2014-2022. ] (]) 19:25, 25 August 2024 (UTC) |
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:The solution is straightforward: remove the end date and specify that the conflict was followed by the Russian invasion. ] (]) 14:45, 19 September 2024 (UTC) |
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::Great idea: I don't know why the "subsumed" thing was totally removed from the article, as if nothing of particular importance happened in 2022. And as for the conflict subsumption: the recent examples include the various ethnic conflicts in Myanmar (Karen , Kachin etc) being subsumed by a all-country Civil war with a new major and largely non-ethnic actor People's Defence Forces. Similar thing happened to ethnic conflicts in Sudan with the inception of 2023 Civil war. These conflicts didn't end, but their context changed markedly. ] (]) 12:32, 1 October 2024 (UTC) |
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:::I've changed it again to keep the end date but include the explanatory note that the term "War in Donbas" generally only covers events up to the start of the invasion. I've also removed "Major combat operations phase ended", as this seems redundant now. </]> <] /><] /> 13:04, 25 November 2024 (UTC) |
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== Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 9 October 2024 == |
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{{edit extended-protected|War in Donbas|answered=yes}} |
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<!-- State UNAMBIGUOUSLY your suggested changes below this line, preferably in a "change X to Y" format. Other editors need to know what to add or remove. Blank edit requests will be declined. --> |
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Add something like "pro goverment partisans" to the ukranian side on the "units involved" list in the infobox. |
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<ref>https://www.5.ua/86/v-okupovanykh-raionakh-donbasu-rozhortaietsia-ukrainskyi-partyzanskyi-rukh-rnbo-63891.html ; https://www.5.ua/86/na-lyganshini-chastishaut-boj-teroristiv-mij-sobou-i-z-partizanami-66591.html; https://novynarnia.com/2020/09/07/volodymyr-zhemchugov/ ; Ukranian Language wikipedia on the subject of resistance during the conflict talks about this aswel but i cant copy the link here for some reason.</ref> |
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<!-- Write your request ABOVE this line and do not remove the tildes and curly brackets below. --> |
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: This are Ukrainian sources and they attribute it to a government entity (RNBO), a member of Rada and a member of Aidar battalion. Considering that almost 10 years have passed since then, I'd suggest to look for a confirmation in more reliable and less biased sources. |
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: Also I would suggest adding information to the article itself first and if it becomes apparent that it was happening on a large scale it can be added to the infobox. ]<sub>]</sub> 20:10, 9 October 2024 (UTC) |
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== Borodai in the lede == |
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I'm not sure his words about 50k Russian citizens are lede-worthy. Borodai, as a direct participant, is essentially a primary source and Euromaidan simply repeats his assertions without any analysis. |
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The topic itself - how many Russian citizens participated in the war is important and I'm not against discussing it in the lede. However we should provide a summary of high-quality secondary sources. We have quite a few of them already. ]<sub>]</sub> 22:54, 19 December 2024 (UTC) |
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== Composed in large part of Russian citizens == |
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== A Commons file used on this page has been nominated for deletion == |
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The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page has been nominated for deletion: |
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* ]<!-- COMMONSBOT: discussion | 2019-02-01T14:53:44.416710 | Flag of the Ghost Brigade.svg --> |
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Participate in the deletion discussion at the ]. —] (]) 14:53, 1 February 2019 (UTC) |
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@], @], regarding source request , this p. 154 says ''In reality, the conflict was fought between, on one side, Ukrainian-speaking and Russian-speaking ethnic Ukrainian and ethnic Russian Ukrainians having national allegiance to Ukraine against, on the opposing side, a minority of Ukrainians with massive Kremlin support having primary allegiance to Russia (Kuzio, 2020, pp. 106–133)''. |
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== “the” == |
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p. 119 '' It cannot be true, as Sakwa (2017a) writes, that Russia sought to extricate itself from the Donbas at the same time as it built up a huge army and military arsenal controlled by GRU (Russian military intelligence) officers and 5,000 Russian occupation troops based in the DNR and LNR. '' ] (]) 01:33, 21 December 2024 (UTC) |
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Please decide whether it is “Donbass” or “the Donbass” and either always omit or always use the article. ] (]) 11:37, 15 February 2019 (UTC) |
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::English usage is not consistent in this matter. See , though these are from before the war. I think the general trend is to omit the article, though. ] — ] 16:01, 15 February 2019 (UTC) |
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:The article now makes a very specific claim, that the forces that seized government buildings {{tquote|composed in large part of Russian citizens crossing the border into Ukraine}}. I wouldn't be too surprised if it were true, but the sources you've brought up here make ''different'' claims. They talk about the conflict in general rather than about the initial unrest. They also don't say anything about the Russian citizens being ''a large part'' of the separatist forces, whether in the beginning or subsequently. ]<sub>]</sub> 20:13, 22 December 2024 (UTC) |
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::: Looks like the most common usage has been “the Donbas.” , , , . Another comparison: , , , . ''—] ] <small>2019-05-31 13:50 z</small>'' |
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== References to TASS == |
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== Belligerents versus suppliers in infobox == |
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This article has several references to ], also cited as “Information Telegraph Agency of Russia,” a biased source that’s unacceptable. TASS may be acceptable for direct quotations of the Kremlin, but not about any facts or events in Ukraine, including statements by Russian militants with whom the Kremlin obscured its true relationship. These should be tagged as unreliable, removed, and replaced with reliable sources. ] (]) 17:17, 4 January 2025 (UTC) |
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No reference showing UK is a belligerent. There's no way that supplying weapons to a belligerent in a conflict makes a country a belligerent. "Support" is a different category altogether. Am ] removing flags from infobox including with citations showing weapons supplies. If you want to add "support" to the infobox, then it needs a separate section, not a sub-heading under "Belligerents"; but note that section would not be in keeping with Misplaced Pages norms. -] (]) 06:14, 9 December 2019 (UTC) |
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:Specific phrases please? ] (]) 17:23, 4 January 2025 (UTC) |
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:In Misplaced Pages conflict infoboxes we regularly include "support" countries as a sub-heading under "Belligerents". Just a few ongoing examples are the Syrian and Libyan civil wars. Countries only providing weapons support and not being directly involved have also been listed in the infoboxes of many past conflicts. ] (]) 01:38, 14 December 2019 (UTC) |
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:But U.S. Secretary confirmed weapon supplies exactly for this conflict. It is support of Ukraine in conflict. Source: https://www.state.gov/secretary-michael-r-pompeo-with-michal-higdon-of-wcsc-tv/ "U.S. Secretary of State Mike Pompeo: We gave them real weapons, where they could fight against the Russians" --] (]) 07:13, 19 December 2019 (UTC) |
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::The Russian and American roles are not equivalent, and any attempt to portray them as such is a violation of ] and non-representative of RS. ] — ] 12:11, 19 December 2019 (UTC) |
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What's the precedent for a war being subsumed by another war? When there's a battle, there's start and end dates, and you can implicitly tell its part of a larger war, but titling an article "War in <location>" and having an end date in that infobox seems to suggest the "war" ended, when it didn't actually end, that phase of the war was eclipsed by the much larger invasion. Also, I don't think the "Major combat operations phase ended on 20 February 2015" is very relevant, there was sporadic levels of fighting all throughout 2014-2022. MarkiPoli (talk) 19:25, 25 August 2024 (UTC)
Add something like "pro goverment partisans" to the ukranian side on the "units involved" list in the infobox.
I'm not sure his words about 50k Russian citizens are lede-worthy. Borodai, as a direct participant, is essentially a primary source and Euromaidan simply repeats his assertions without any analysis.
The topic itself - how many Russian citizens participated in the war is important and I'm not against discussing it in the lede. However we should provide a summary of high-quality secondary sources. We have quite a few of them already. Alaexis¿question? 22:54, 19 December 2024 (UTC)