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Revision as of 01:14, 6 March 2020 editNoonIcarus (talk | contribs)Autopatrolled, Extended confirmed users, New page reviewers39,927 editsm Jamez42 moved page Talk:La Guaira (state) to Talk:Vargas (state) over redirect: Contested. Please start a move proposal← Previous edit Latest revision as of 16:48, 6 September 2024 edit undoSoman (talk | contribs)Autopatrolled, Extended confirmed users, IP block exemptions, Pending changes reviewers93,520 editsm Soman moved page Talk:Vargas (state) to Talk:La Guaira (state) over redirect: 5 years since official name was changed 
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{{WikiProject South America|importance=mid|Venezuela=yes|Venezuela-importance=high}}
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{{old move
|date1=15 May 2020|from1=La Guaira (state)|destination1=Vargas (state)|result1=Moved as proposed|link1=Special:Permalink/959456850#Requested move 23 June 2023|
|date2=23 June 2023|from2=La Guaira (state|destination2=La Guaira (state)|result2=Listing under technical moves|link2=Special:Permalink/1161550213#Requested move 23 June 2023
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== Possible copyright problem == == Possible copyright problem ==
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::] - Like I pinged you for ], where you fixed the ambiguous article title. Maybe you could fix the one here too? ] (]) 11:10, 5 July 2014 (UTC) ::] - Like I pinged you for ], where you fixed the ambiguous article title. Maybe you could fix the one here too? ] (]) 11:10, 5 July 2014 (UTC)
:::Oh, yes, now I remember, I had forgotten. So I would say if these articles are going to be changed from the format I've moved them back to, we should have a formal ] discussion about it because of the ambiguity issues. ] <sup>]</sup> 04:52, 7 July 2014 (UTC) :::Oh, yes, now I remember, I had forgotten. So I would say if these articles are going to be changed from the format I've moved them back to, we should have a formal ] discussion about it because of the ambiguity issues. ] <sup>]</sup> 04:52, 7 July 2014 (UTC)

== La Guaira ==

{{ping|ZiaLater}} The last move of the article was the result of cross-wiki edit warring. Do you believe you could start a rename discussion? The issue has been hotly contest. --] (]) 09:44, 7 May 2020 (UTC)

:{{re|Jamez42}} I do not see that as being necessary. The de facto government of Maduro has changed the name of the state months ago and that does not look like it will change any time soon. The now shows the name being La Guaira as well.----] (]) 10:14, 7 May 2020 (UTC)

::{{ping|ZiaLater}} It would not have been necessary if the move wasn't disputed (]). Sources still refer to the state widely as "Vargas", while using "La Guaira" to refer to the port city; ] establishes that the widely used name should be the naming convention for a geographic territory. --] (]) 13:38, 7 May 2020 (UTC)

:::{{re|Jamez42}} Per ], it clearly states:
:::{{tq|For an article about a place whose name has changed over time, context is important. For articles discussing the present, use the modern English name (or local name, if there is no established English name), rather than an older one.}}----] (]) 13:51, 7 May 2020 (UTC)

::::{{ping|ZiaLater}}
::::{{tqb|When a ''widely accepted English name'', in a modern context, exists for a place, we should use it. This will often be a local name, or one of them; but not always. If the place does not exist anymore, or the article deals only with a place in a period when it held a different name, the widely accepted ''historical'' English name should be used. '''If''' neither of these English names exist, the modern official name (in articles dealing with the present) or the modern local historical name (in articles dealing with a specific period) should be used. All applicable names can be used in the titles of ]. - ]}}

::::There is already a widely accepted English name and widely accepted historical English name. The lead and redirect fortunately already deal with the new official name isssue. --] (]) 14:15, 7 May 2020 (UTC)

== Requested move 15 May 2020 ==

<div class="boilerplate" style="background-color: #efe; margin: 0; padding: 0 10px 0 10px; border: 1px dotted #aaa;"><!-- Template:RM top -->
:''The following is a closed discussion of a ]. <span style="color:red">'''Please do not modify it.'''</span> Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a ] after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion. ''

The result of the move request was: '''Moved as proposed''' - okay then. As news agencies catch up to the official title, we'll probably revisit the move. Till then... {{rmnac}} ] ] 21:43, 28 May 2020 (UTC)
----


] → {{no redirect|Vargas (state)}} – I would like to propose and discuss the move of the article to its former name: "Vargas (state)"

My main point of why it should is based on ], since references still widely use the name the name of "Vargas", even after its official change on 2020, which can be easily reflected in the lead like before:

* - The Australian
* - Yahoo News (AFP)
* - Anadolu Agency
* - Yahoo News (AFP)
* - Bangkok Post
* - Explica
* - PanAm Post
* - Caracas Chronicles

This is even more common in Spanish sources, which are commonly used in related articles in the English Misplaced Pages:

* -. El Nacional
* - El Pitazo
* - La Región
* - El Pitazo
* - El Pitazo
* - La Región
* - Efecto Cocuyo
* - El Pitazo
* - Efecto Cocuyo
* - Venezuela al Día
* - El Pitazo
* - El Pitazo

This shows that Vargas is both the {{tq|widely accepted English name}} and the {{tq|widely accepted historical English name}}, which includes historic uses such as the ].

Another problem that I have argued is that the capital city of the state is already named "]" and the move can easily lead to confusions among the users, both because of its recent change and because the change has not been widely accepted yet, so ] arguably applies too. The most common use I have seen in English noted for "La Guaira" is to refer to the city and not the state. Something similar happened when the {{ill|Federal District (Venezuela)|es|Distrito Federal de Venezuela}} was split into Vargas and the Capital District back in 1998.

Last but not least, I don't know if there is a precedent in the naming conventions, but I also wanted to note that the ] . ] (]) 13:03, 15 May 2020 (UTC)<small>—'''''Relisting.'''''&nbsp;] (]) 17:01, 22 May 2020 (UTC)</small>

----
: ''The discussion above is closed. <b style="color: #FF0000;">Please do not modify it.</b> Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.''<!-- from ] -->
</div><div style="clear:both;"></div>
== "Vargas (estado)" listed at ] ==
]
A discussion is taking place to address the redirect ]. The discussion will occur at ] until a consensus is reached, and readers of this page are welcome to contribute to the discussion. <!-- from Template:
RFDNote --> ] (]) 19:54, 15 March 2021 (UTC)

== Requested move 23 June 2023 ==

<div class="boilerplate mw-archivedtalk" style="background-color: #efe; margin: 0; padding: 0 10px 0 10px; border: 1px dotted #aaa;"><!-- Template:RM top -->
:''The following is a closed discussion of a ]. <span style="color:red">'''Please do not modify it.'''</span> Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a ] after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.''

The result of the move request was: '''Listing under technical moves.''' <small>(])</small> ] <sup>]</sup>/<sub>]</sub> 14:51, 23 June 2023 (UTC)
----

] → {{no redirect|La Guaira (state)}} – The state's name was officially changed to "La Guaira" in 2019. I tried to move the article myself to "La Guaira (state)" but accidentally moved it to "La Guaira (state". Now I'm trying to move it to "La Guaira (state)", but Misplaced Pages won't let me because an article by that name already exists. ] (]) 13:02, 23 June 2023 (UTC)
<div style="padding-left: 1.6em; font-style: italic; border-top: 1px solid #a2a9b1; margin: 0.5em 0; padding-top: 0.5em">The discussion above is closed. <b style="color: #FF0000;">Please do not modify it.</b> Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.</div><!-- from ] -->
</div><div style="clear:both;"></div>

== Page-move war ==

{{ping|MusicologoVzla}} Over the years, you have insisted in moving the article's title to "La Guaira". If you want to move the page, start a move discussion and make your case, as I have pointed at several times. If you continue insisting in this, I will report this at a noticeboard. ] (]) 10:13, 3 September 2023 (UTC)

== It's weird ==

Why did they change the name to La Guaira to match its capital? Did the state's old namesake die? ] (]) 20:01, 12 August 2024 (UTC)

Latest revision as of 16:48, 6 September 2024

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Discussions:

Possible copyright problem

This article has been revised as part of a large-scale clean-up project of multiple article copyright infringement. (See the investigation subpage) Earlier text must not be restored, unless it can be verified to be free of infringement. For legal reasons, Misplaced Pages cannot accept copyrighted text or images borrowed from other web sites or printed material; such additions must be deleted. Contributors may use sources as a source of information, but not as a source of sentences or phrases. Accordingly, the material may be rewritten, but only if it does not infringe on the copyright of the original or plagiarize from that source. Please see our guideline on non-free text for how to properly implement limited quotations of copyrighted text. Misplaced Pages takes copyright violations very seriously. MER-C 10:40, 15 June 2012 (UTC)

Ambiguous title

User:Good Olfactory - Vargas, Venezuela is an ambiguous title, similar to Trujillo, Venezuela, as there are two municipalities in Venezuela named "Vargas". Tamawashi (talk) 06:47, 3 July 2014 (UTC)

Why was I pinged about this issue? Good Ol’factory 22:03, 3 July 2014 (UTC)
User:Good Olfactory - Like I pinged you for Talk:Trujillo, Venezuela, where you fixed the ambiguous article title. Maybe you could fix the one here too? Tamawashi (talk) 11:10, 5 July 2014 (UTC)
Oh, yes, now I remember, I had forgotten. So I would say if these articles are going to be changed from the format I've moved them back to, we should have a formal WP:RM discussion about it because of the ambiguity issues. Good Ol’factory 04:52, 7 July 2014 (UTC)

La Guaira

@ZiaLater: The last move of the article was the result of cross-wiki edit warring. Do you believe you could start a rename discussion? The issue has been hotly contest. --Jamez42 (talk) 09:44, 7 May 2020 (UTC)

@Jamez42: I do not see that as being necessary. The de facto government of Maduro has changed the name of the state months ago and that does not look like it will change any time soon. The official website of Vargas now shows the name being La Guaira as well.----ZiaLater (talk) 10:14, 7 May 2020 (UTC)
@ZiaLater: It would not have been necessary if the move wasn't disputed (WP:RM#CM). Sources still refer to the state widely as "Vargas", while using "La Guaira" to refer to the port city; WP:NCPLACE establishes that the widely used name should be the naming convention for a geographic territory. --Jamez42 (talk) 13:38, 7 May 2020 (UTC)
@Jamez42: Per WP:MODERNPLACENAME, it clearly states:
For an article about a place whose name has changed over time, context is important. For articles discussing the present, use the modern English name (or local name, if there is no established English name), rather than an older one.----ZiaLater (talk) 13:51, 7 May 2020 (UTC)
@ZiaLater:

When a widely accepted English name, in a modern context, exists for a place, we should use it. This will often be a local name, or one of them; but not always. If the place does not exist anymore, or the article deals only with a place in a period when it held a different name, the widely accepted historical English name should be used. If neither of these English names exist, the modern official name (in articles dealing with the present) or the modern local historical name (in articles dealing with a specific period) should be used. All applicable names can be used in the titles of redirects. - WP:MODERNPLACENAME

There is already a widely accepted English name and widely accepted historical English name. The lead and redirect fortunately already deal with the new official name isssue. --Jamez42 (talk) 14:15, 7 May 2020 (UTC)

Requested move 15 May 2020

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: Moved as proposed - okay then. As news agencies catch up to the official title, we'll probably revisit the move. Till then... (non-admin closure) Red Slash 21:43, 28 May 2020 (UTC)


La Guaira (state) → Vargas (state) – I would like to propose and discuss the move of the article to its former name: "Vargas (state)"

My main point of why it should is based on WP:NCPLACE, since references still widely use the name the name of "Vargas", even after its official change on 2020, which can be easily reflected in the lead like before:

This is even more common in Spanish sources, which are commonly used in related articles in the English Misplaced Pages:

This shows that Vargas is both the widely accepted English name and the widely accepted historical English name, which includes historic uses such as the Vargas tragedy.

Another problem that I have argued is that the capital city of the state is already named "La Guaira" and the move can easily lead to confusions among the users, both because of its recent change and because the change has not been widely accepted yet, so WP:TOOSOON arguably applies too. The most common use I have seen in English noted for "La Guaira" is to refer to the city and not the state. Something similar happened when the Federal District (Venezuela)  was split into Vargas and the Capital District back in 1998.

Last but not least, I don't know if there is a precedent in the naming conventions, but I also wanted to note that the International Organization for Standardization still refers to the entity as "Vargas". Jamez42 (talk) 13:03, 15 May 2020 (UTC)—Relisting. Jerm (talk) 17:01, 22 May 2020 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

"Vargas (estado)" listed at Redirects for discussion

A discussion is taking place to address the redirect Vargas (estado). The discussion will occur at Misplaced Pages:Redirects for discussion/Log/2021 March 15#Vargas (estado) until a consensus is reached, and readers of this page are welcome to contribute to the discussion. NoonIcarus (talk) 19:54, 15 March 2021 (UTC)

Requested move 23 June 2023

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: Listing under technical moves. (non-admin closure) WPscatter /c 14:51, 23 June 2023 (UTC)

La Guaira (state → La Guaira (state) – The state's name was officially changed to "La Guaira" in 2019. I tried to move the article myself to "La Guaira (state)" but accidentally moved it to "La Guaira (state". Now I'm trying to move it to "La Guaira (state)", but Misplaced Pages won't let me because an article by that name already exists. Concrete Cloverleaf (talk) 13:02, 23 June 2023 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Page-move war

@MusicologoVzla: Over the years, you have insisted in moving the article's title to "La Guaira". If you want to move the page, start a move discussion and make your case, as I have pointed at several times. If you continue insisting in this, I will report this at a noticeboard. NoonIcarus (talk) 10:13, 3 September 2023 (UTC)

It's weird

Why did they change the name to La Guaira to match its capital? Did the state's old namesake die? 173.187.90.150 (talk) 20:01, 12 August 2024 (UTC)

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