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| == Age at death / limitations of sidebar == | == Age at death / limitations of sidebar == | ||
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| == Change "Later developments" section to use chronological order == | |||
| == '''Julius''' and '''Ethel Rosenberg''' were Jewish ] citizens..." in lede paragraph is ] == | |||
| The lede paragraph of his article was modified on 20:49, 28 May 2018 to say <blockquote>"'''Julius''' and '''Ethel Rosenberg''' were Jewish ] citizens... ".</blockquote>. | |||
| The religious background of Julius and Ethel Rosenberg (both were from Jewish families) is already dealt with in the section "Early lives and education". If there is a notable connection between the religious and cultural milieu and the acts for which this couple became notable, it's not documented by a reliable source. Likewise, if either Julius or Ethel Rosenberg were observant Jews, that is also not documented by a reliable source. | |||
| Neither of the two ways it's generally understood that the Rosenbergs could be called "Jewish" is relevant to the acts for which the Rosenbergs became notable. Stating the fact in the article's lede paragraph is ]. I reverted the change accordingly. ] (]) 02:41, 29 May 2018 (UTC) | |||
| :Well, Jewish can be an ethnic description. No, neither of them were religiously observant: they were Communists. I agree this doesn't need to be in the lede.--] (]) 08:40, 29 May 2018 (UTC) | |||
| == NPOV regarding the Venona project conclusions regarding their guilt and overall tone of article. == | |||
| The article seems to state a "contentious" regarding the interpretation of the VENONA documents that I am not convinced exists. Yes, it may be true that a majority of historians feel the Venona project documents do in deed support the guilt of the Rosenberg's, the fact is that their has been some legitimate doubt raised about whether the documents have been properly translated or not by respectable sources. As such, I would rewrite the VENONA documents section to better reflect this. There is dispute by relevant individuals as to whether the VENONA documents are properly translated and as such, whether they do in deed support the long held belief that certain individuals, such as the Rosenberg's and Alger Hiss where indeed guilty of spying for the Soviets. Critics believe that while the documents do indeed show spying was going on, it's not clear that they real-life individuals accused of said spying are indeed the code-names mentioned in the document. The documents do not mention real names so it requires speculation to put the real names to the code-named people in the document. This article should reflect this reality. There is also the issue of whether the immorality of framing the Rosenberg's, even if they where guilty to some or all degree, makes their execution a grave injustice, as well as whether they was such they deserve the death penalty anyways. If any notable persons has argued their they believe the Rosenberg's role in the espionage did not constitute a death penalty level offense that that should be added to the article. --] (]) 22:03, 2 June 2018 (UTC) | |||
| : Misplaced Pages is based off of what the reliable sources say. In this particular article, what serious (as opposed to popular) historians have written on the subject. Who are the historians who agree with you and disagree with the ones currently used in the article? ] (]) 22:36, 2 June 2018 (UTC) | |||
| : @] The ] Soviet cable decrypts mentioning the Soviet agent named "Julius" were important, but also corroborated by the detective work of FBI special agent Robert Lamphere in tying ] to the agent "Julius" in the decrypts - which also mentioned the agent was married to a woman named "Ethel". That part of the decrypts was very explicit and not prone to mistranslation - it was very specific about agent "Julius" and his wife "Ethel" - if anyone burned the Rosenbergs, it was their Soviet case handler. With the VENONA cables, the testimony of Ethel Rosenberg's brother and her sister-in-law, and the Soviet courier ], there were no ambiguities regarding the Rosenbergs' guilt. | |||
| : We already cite reliable sources questioning the morality of executing the Rosenbergs, up to and including their sons, the Meeropol brothers. We cite reliable sources who agree that the Rosenbergs were guilty. We also cite one of the most eminent legal scholars and defense counsels in the United States, ] in the lede paragraph as saying the Rosenbergs were "guilty - and framed" of espionage. We also cite very reliable sources, the VENONA decrypts and the FBI investigators, as well as several historians who discussed the case together as supporting the guilty verdict in the Rosenbergs' case. You're welcome to present these other sources here and we'll examine them and form a consensus on whether to add what they have to say - but remember ] - these other sources would have to be a significant minority view - not a small minority, as Jimbo Wales says in the ] guideline. ] (]) 21:59, 6 June 2018 (UTC) | |||
| == Motives? == | |||
| The current article is good at explaining the intel lost, and some of the impacts, but lacks a motive as to why the Rosenberg's did what they did. I'm sure early cold-war propaganda is untrustworthy, but time and evidence should present an answer to "why" they did it. ] (]) 03:28, 19 June 2018 (UTC) | |||
| :Money. ] (]) 08:50, 19 June 2018 (UTC) | |||
| ⚫ | : |
||
| :::The records, Soviet as well as FBI's and ]'s own recollections, give a picture of the Rosenbergs as committed Communists who wanted to aid the Soviet Union by helping the Soviets gain the secrets of nuclear weapons (including ]'s and ]'s early thermonuclear weapon concepts - which helped Sakharov conceive designs for Soviet thermonuclear weapons later). ] (]) 01:30, 4 July 2018 (UTC) | |||
| == Bias and unrelated information in this article? == | |||
| It seems to me that this article has a very strange non-independent tone that isn't in line with the Misplaced Pages guidelines. Also, I'm concerned that this article contains an immense amount of unrelated information about other people, but does not accurately represent the historical debate and ongoing discussion about the Rosenbergs. I feel this page should be marked for major review. ] (]) 05:08, 27 October 2018 (UTC) | |||
| This is a strangely biased article, certainly in its introductory paragraph, where there's nothing resembling a neutral POV. A far more reasonable description would begin with stating that Julius and Ethel Rosenberg were tried, convicted, and executed for conspiracy to commit espionage. | |||
| The rest of the article has sections that hew far more closely to a balanced assessment, alternating with tabloidy sections (for example, how to justify this? "The Rosenbergs' two sons, Michael and Robert Meeropol, spent years trying to prove the innocence of their parents. They were orphaned by the executions and were not adopted by any relatives."). Crimes stated as factual are well beyond what the evidence can be shown to support, and the writing does not reach a level that is even vaguely befitting an encyclopedia article. | |||
| I think it will benefit our readers if we untangle this section. New sources of information emerged at specific dates, which we can use: | |||
| There is further, a whiff of anti-semitism in the deployment of the word Jewish (and although it was removed from the opening description of the Rosenbergs as Jewish Americans, that lives on in google). Why, for example does it say this: "Ethel and Julius Rosenberg were buried at Wellwood Cemetery, a Jewish cemetery in Pinelawn, New York"? or this: "the charges of antisemitism were widely believed abroad, but not among the vast majority in the United States." One might write paragraphs about that, but I'd like to see some evidence of the beliefs of a "vast majority"--and majority of whom?) | |||
| * 1995 publication of Venona decryptions (material that was available to the FBI but not made public during the trial) | |||
| * 2001 David Greenglass later statements | |||
| * 2008 release of grand jury testimony | |||
| * 2008 Morton Sobell later statements | |||
| * 2009 Vassiliev notebooks published online | |||
| The Rosenberg children and their campaign for the exoneration of Ethel Rosenberg belong in a different section. | |||
| I am going to try to sort this out. ] (]) 18:52, 15 November 2020 (UTC) | |||
| : 1995 Venona descriptions: | |||
| "...For example, a 1944 cable (which gives the name of Ruth Greenglass in clear text) says that Ruth's brother David is being recruited as a spy by his sister (that is, Ethel Rosenberg) and her husband..." | |||
| But Mr. David Greenglass wasn’t the brother of Mrs. Ruth Greenglass. He was her spouse! | |||
| This phrase must be written so: | |||
| For example, a 1944 cable (which gives the name of Ruth Greenglass in clear text) says that Ruth's spouse David is being recruited as a spy by his sister (that is, Ethel Rosenberg) and her husband. --] (]) 07:21, 12 April 2021 (UTC) | |||
| The only section relating to Korean war seems to be in quotation from the trial judge, but there should surely be some reference to the fraught state of US politics as a result of the US's fighting that grueling war during this time, with Communist China engaged in the fighting — all of which clearly provided a backdrop for the execution of people convicted of conspiracy to provide secrets to a wartime ally , secrets which had already been provide by Klaus Fuchs. | |||
| == Clarification about Ethel == | |||
| The Venona intercepts are valuable and important evidence; books written by political critics of the Rosenbergs are far less so. I won't go on, as I am sadly short of time, but I would like to support the request for major review to which I am appending this comment. | |||
| ] (]) 23:18, 10 April 2019 (UTC) | |||
| The previous version of this article claimed at the start that both Julius and Ethel spied for the Soviets and provided info to them. But all of the article’s sources that I looked at said that Ethel was involved in recruiting but ''not'' in providing info to the Soviets. So that opening paragraph seemed to me to be factually incorrect (according to the article’s sources), so I changed it. My change may not have been the best way to address this issue, I don’t know; but if someone ends up reverting my change, then please make other changes to make the article match what it says in the sources. (Or else provide a source for the specific claim that Ethel passed info to the Soviets.) — ] (]) 00:33, 16 March 2023 (UTC) | |||
| :As you say, they were convicted of a crime, and the article reflects that. The article also indicates that there has been an ongoing campaign to exonerate them (or at least Ethel). I think there is nothing anti-semitic about describing them as Jews. They were ethnic Jews and identified as such, as shown by the fact they were buried in a Jewish cemetery. I think you will have trouble finding a source discussing the Rosenbergs that doesn't describe them as Jewish.--] (]) 19:07, 13 April 2019 (UTC) | |||
| == Ethel's Innocence == | |||
| ==Help! Vandalism in color print and formatting== | |||
| Someone has vandalized this article, putting many sections in bold color font and messing up standard format. I can't figure out how to undo it.] (]) 18:41, 27 February 2019 (UTC) | |||
| This article would benefit from including information on the prosecution’s knowledge of intercepted Soviet communications related to the Rosenberg case. These communications detailed espionage activities using codenames for various spies, yet notably referred to “Ethel” directly in the description of the role codenamed “Antenna,” believed to refer to Ethel’s husband, Julius. It is significant that the prosecution was aware of this fact, and there is evidence suggesting that Ethel’s execution was intended, in part, to conceal the extent to which the United States had successfully intercepted and decoded Soviet messages. ] (]) 17:26, 5 November 2024 (UTC) | |||
| == "Grassroots campaign" for clemency? == | |||
| ⚫ | :It's speculative.--] (]) 01:55, 6 November 2024 (UTC) | ||
| Not according to by ], which describes it as orchestrated by the Communist party (] would be more accurate). National Guardian is described as a "] weekly" one of whose editors was a KGB agent (pp. 82–83). Radosh also notes that: {{quote|The small group put together by the Almans struggled on its own with little support, until suddenly, in November and December of 1952 - almost overnight, it seemed - their committee was flooded with eager vol- unteers. Donations began pouring in. It became clear that suddenly the American Communist Party had reversed course and ordered its cadre to join the campaign and put all its efforts into the work. (83)}} | |||
| ::Wrong. | |||
| {{quote|It was on December 3, 1952 - the same day that the French Rosenberg Defense Committee was founded - that ] and his co-defendants were executed in Prague. Clearly, the Stalinist apparatus in Moscow desperately needed something to deflect the world's attention from the sordid execution of the innocent in Prague. The Rosenberg case fit the bill perfectly. (84)}} | |||
| ::https://www.justsecurity.org/105873/ethel-rosenberg-wrongful-execution/ ] (]) 04:23, 22 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| {{quote|Not until this past year, when the former KGB librarian ] released his "Notebooks" (verbatim renditions of documents he meticulously copied from the KGB archives, and eventually smuggled into London, where he now lives), was there corroboration that the American and Western European campaigns to gain clemency for the Rosenbergs had been created directly in Moscow from the very start. (85)}} | |||
| And then goes on to discuss the evidence... <span style="background:Black;padding:1px 5px">]]]</span> 01:39, 17 March 2020 (UTC) | |||
| == Not a spy == | |||
| :I've removed "grassroots". There is no doubt the worldwide Communist movement pushed the campaign. Equally, there is no doubt that many non-Communists like the Pope supported clemency. By the way, I think the section should be rewritten because it puts forward a biased false distinction between non-Communists and Communists and leftists.--] (]) 08:42, 17 March 2020 (UTC) | |||
| https://www.justsecurity.org/105873/ethel-rosenberg-wrongful-execution/ <!-- Template:Unsigned IP --><small class="autosigned">— Preceding ] comment added by ] (]) 04:23, 22 December 2024 (UTC)</small> <!--Autosigned by SineBot--> | |||
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Age at death / limitations of sidebar
The right-hand information block suggested that, having died the same day, they died at the same age in spite of having different birth years. Reviewing the code, it appears this was an auto-calculated field which does not allow the flexibility of reporting two death ages at a unique time for non-unique birthdates. To clarify for other readers, I changed the code from
| date_of_death = June 19, 1953(1953-06-19) (aged 35) (both)
to
| date_of_death = June 19, 1953(1953-06-19) (aged 35) (Julius), and aged 37 (Ethel)
which I believe removes the ambiguity. There is still some minor formatting inconsistency as the sidebar places the initial age in parenthesis, but this was the best I could do with the automated process. At least now they are not reported dead at the same age.
Change "Later developments" section to use chronological order
I think it will benefit our readers if we untangle this section. New sources of information emerged at specific dates, which we can use:
- 1995 publication of Venona decryptions (material that was available to the FBI but not made public during the trial)
- 2001 David Greenglass later statements
- 2008 release of grand jury testimony
- 2008 Morton Sobell later statements
- 2009 Vassiliev notebooks published online
The Rosenberg children and their campaign for the exoneration of Ethel Rosenberg belong in a different section. I am going to try to sort this out. HouseOfChange (talk) 18:52, 15 November 2020 (UTC)
- 1995 Venona descriptions:
"...For example, a 1944 cable (which gives the name of Ruth Greenglass in clear text) says that Ruth's brother David is being recruited as a spy by his sister (that is, Ethel Rosenberg) and her husband..." But Mr. David Greenglass wasn’t the brother of Mrs. Ruth Greenglass. He was her spouse! This phrase must be written so:
For example, a 1944 cable (which gives the name of Ruth Greenglass in clear text) says that Ruth's spouse David is being recruited as a spy by his sister (that is, Ethel Rosenberg) and her husband. --Анатолий Глезер (talk) 07:21, 12 April 2021 (UTC)
Clarification about Ethel
The previous version of this article claimed at the start that both Julius and Ethel spied for the Soviets and provided info to them. But all of the article’s sources that I looked at said that Ethel was involved in recruiting but not in providing info to the Soviets. So that opening paragraph seemed to me to be factually incorrect (according to the article’s sources), so I changed it. My change may not have been the best way to address this issue, I don’t know; but if someone ends up reverting my change, then please make other changes to make the article match what it says in the sources. (Or else provide a source for the specific claim that Ethel passed info to the Soviets.) — Elysdir (talk) 00:33, 16 March 2023 (UTC)
Ethel's Innocence
This article would benefit from including information on the prosecution’s knowledge of intercepted Soviet communications related to the Rosenberg case. These communications detailed espionage activities using codenames for various spies, yet notably referred to “Ethel” directly in the description of the role codenamed “Antenna,” believed to refer to Ethel’s husband, Julius. It is significant that the prosecution was aware of this fact, and there is evidence suggesting that Ethel’s execution was intended, in part, to conceal the extent to which the United States had successfully intercepted and decoded Soviet messages. ChloeMS (talk) 17:26, 5 November 2024 (UTC)
- It's speculative.--Jack Upland (talk) 01:55, 6 November 2024 (UTC)
Not a spy
https://www.justsecurity.org/105873/ethel-rosenberg-wrongful-execution/ — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2600:8802:5913:1700:7597:DD0E:35B5:1044 (talk) 04:23, 22 December 2024 (UTC)
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