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| | action1 = AFD | |||
| {{WPBiography|living=yes|class=|importance=}} | |||
| | action1date = 2005-08-06 | |||
| {{Notable Wikipedian|Chuck0|Munson, Chuck}} | |||
| | action1link = Misplaced Pages:Articles_for_deletion/Chuck_Munson | |||
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| {{oldafdfull|votepage=Chuck Munson|result='''keep'''|date=]}} | |||
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| ] | |||
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| | action2date =2007-07-31 | |||
| | action2link = Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Chuck Munson (2nd nomination) | |||
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| {{WikiProject banner shell|blp=yes|listas=Munson, Chuck|1= | |||
| {{WikiProject Biography}} | |||
| {{WikiProject Anarchism}} | |||
| {{WikiProject Kansas|importance=NA}} | |||
| }} | |||
| {{Connected contributor|User1=Chuck0|U1-EH=yes}} | |||
| {{refideas|1={{Cite news |last1=Leiby |first1=Richard |title=ANARCHY, ANYONE?; With Protests Looming Here This Month, The Anti- Capitalist League Gets in Shape By Kicking Some Ball |work=] |date=2000-04-04 |url=https://www.highbeam.com/doc/1P2-515193.html |df=mdy-all |via=] }} | |||
| ---- | |||
| |2=https://web.archive.org/web/20090107160659/http://www.libraryjournal.com/article/CA157891.html | |||
| *''He graduated from the ].'' | |||
| }} | |||
| This text appeared and disappeared. So, did he or didn't he attend U of K? Does anyone know? Thanks, -] 05:46, Jun 13, 2005 (UTC) | |||
| {{Archive box|auto=yes}} | |||
| ==Media references and published works== | |||
| ==Information== | |||
| This article does not "belong" to its subject. If there is incorrect information in it then please let us know the correct information. Most recently ], who has previously identified himself as "Chuck Munson",, has deleted his birthdate and the name and link to his blog. (usually people are anxious to publicize their blogs). Would ] please explain why this informaiton should be removed? Thanks -] 06:39, Jun 24, 2005 (UTC) | |||
| If anybody is really, really curious, they can find a more comprehensive list of my and a list of where I've been at my blog . The blog also has an page and a draft overview of . | |||
| An anon just added Munson's place of residence. Knowing that Munson is sensitive to his information being revealed, I checked and found that he has listed his hometown (and mailing address) in his blog. Since it's on his blog there's no harm in listing it here too. -] 20:53, July 25, 2005 (UTC) | |||
| == Quote from Critical Studies in Media Communication == | |||
| *'' based in the ] area. He received his ] (Painting/Sculpture) from ] in ] and his ] in ] at the ]-Madison in ]. '' | |||
| Okay, what's the scoop on the use of this article? From the edit summary of the edit at 19:31, we are supposed to learn that this individual "can only be" Munson. At best, this is original research; it might also be unverifiable. thanks... ] (]) 19:37, 9 March 2008 (UTC) | |||
| :Check almost any other external link on the page; Munson runs ]. The ref isn't even necessary to establish he is an anarchist, and can be easily replaced, but it does verify info about Munson and it is a useful piece for readers. ] 19:43, 9 March 2008 (UTC) | |||
| ::But do you disagree that the use of the reference in this way constitutes original research? ] (]) 19:48, 9 March 2008 (UTC) | |||
| :::I think this is a little abusive of the OR tag. When something as benign as this is totally obvious, please ]. ] (]) 19:54, 9 March 2008 (UTC) | |||
| :::What you might be thinking of is ]. And no, I agree with Murderbike; it's clear as day and uncontroversial that Munson is a) an anarchist b) the individual behind Infoshop.org and c) the person referred to in that quote. You can challenge it if you like, but I don't exactly see why anyone would want to. Regards, ] 19:57, 9 March 2008 (UTC) | |||
| Can anyone tell me why this information, which is plainly written on Munson's own blog, is irrelevant or improper to include in his biographical entry here? Thanks, -] 19:42, August 5, 2005 (UTC) | |||
| :::: Yes, of course, synthesis. The reason to object to it is that it makes it more difficult to argue in other cases where something isn't as benign; it doesn't strike me as a good precedent. As for whether or not he's an anarchist, I have no idea - never heard of him before. I just think the source doesn't do the work claimed for it here. Why do you consider it necessary to use it? Are there no other sources that will do? thanks, ] (]) 20:11, 9 March 2008 (UTC) | |||
| *:: Where else does an article on a person give their address?--] 20:16, August 11, 2005 (UTC) | |||
| :::::There's no worry about precedent - ]. If you look to the first discussion on this page, you will see that Munson himself has listed a number of resources, including for editors use. We don't have to use this specific source here, I just think it would be a shame to remove it altogether as it has a lot of informative material, is a secondary source, and is a reliable scholarly source, unlike much info on Munson online. I'll move it somewhere else. Regards, ] 20:17, 9 March 2008 (UTC) | |||
| That's a strawman - this article does not include his address. Many biographical articles state where their subjects live or lived, either directly or by implication from their place of employment. ], ], ], ], ], etc. Also, many articles on places mention notables who live there: ], ], etc. There is nothing improper about listing his ''county'' of residence, particularly since Chuck freely posts his own, exact, address. -] 22:59, August 11, 2005 (UTC) | |||
| :::::: Thanks. I've also just noticed that the quote refers to someone in DC, but in the intro to the page on Munson here it says that he is in Kansas. (If only it were true that "Misplaced Pages is not a bureaucracy"!! People argue in terms of precedent all the time here, and I imagine that's inevitable.) ] (]) 20:23, 9 March 2008 (UTC) | |||
| ---- | |||
| *::What difference does it make? His address is not necessary for the article. --] 04:46, August 11, 2005 (UTC) | |||
| :::::::Yeah, Munson's location differed at the respective timesof writing - he did spend some time in DC. It helps in general to keep a firm grasp of ] in mind, I think. We wouldn't want to have to find sources for the claim that ] is expressly '''not''' a Martian, for example. Hope the new version of the article is more to your liking. Regards, ] 20:32, 9 March 2008 (UTC) | |||
| :::His address isn't in the article, just his county of residence. The point of mentioning it here is that the guy has repeatedly posted his own address on his own website, so we are not invading his privacy by listing his general area of residence. More recently he has added a bunch of new material and let the old material remain, so perhaps he doesn't mind so much anymore. Cheers, -] 06:15, August 11, 2005 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::My take is that this citation was added by somebody to shut up the idiot who was questioning anything and everything about the entry on me. They had a political axe to grind and they took out their problems with me by arguing that I wasn't an anarchist. This "citation trolling", for want of a better term, is an annoying abuse of Misplaced Pages. It's well-established that I'm an anarchist. The ''New York Times'' even published a feature on me that noted that I am an anarchist. People ought to read that article on Slashdot today about the fight between "inclusionists" and "deletionists" across Misplaced Pages. What this person was doing is similar to the deletionist philosophy. This cited article may be a bit off topic, but I think whoever added it was making a good faith effort to provide citations to shut up the troll. ] (]) 04:39, 11 March 2008 (UTC) | |||
| ::::I, like many, haven't the slightest idea who this guy is which is why this article is silly and should be deleted, but, besides that there is no reason an address of residence for any person should be included. What other articles on people have done this? Also, banning the subject of the article is censorship which I'd like to think Misplaced Pages would condemn. That said, what's most important is that this article is vanity and non-notable. --] 20:15, August 11, 2005 (UTC) | |||
| ==New changes== | |||
| :::::How is it vanity? He didn't create it. I did. And I agree - specific address should not be listed, especially for someone who has concerns with privacy. --] 23:14, August 11, 2005 (UTC) | |||
| Given that I am an active Wikipedian, people really ought to ask me before they make additions and changes to this entry. This entry was way too long before the recent changes and now some of the changes reflect the agenda of Misplaced Pages critics. The sentence about my anarchist political beliefs, with the citation to my blog article, is a nice addition, but the addition of words about anarcho-capitalism reflect the priorities of other Misplaced Pages editors, not any of my priorities as an anarchist. I removed the sentence about my early years, as my religious background is irrelevant and the part about Kansas City, Kansas is completely wrong. I grew up in south Kansas City, in both Missouri and Kansas. Kansas City, Kansas is west of KCMO. Look it up on the map. People outside of KC get that wrong all the time. | |||
| ::Munson also keeps deleting his name from the ] article, despite clear evidence that he is in charge of it. Here is a short bio attached to an article he wrote: | |||
| ::*''Chuck Munson is a native Kansas Citian who returned to the city in 2003 after living elsewhere for 20 years. He is an anarchist organizer who is involved with the Crossroads Infoshop and other local projects. He also runs Infoshop.org, a popular independent website for news, opinion and resources. Chuck's blog, Monumental Mistake, can be found at: http://chuck.mahost.org/weblog/''. | |||
| ::This short article by a third party describes him as the webmaster and editor. I hope that Munson will explain why he wants to erase his name from this enterprise of which he is clearly the principle. -] 22:23, August 5, 2005 (UTC) | |||
| :::Why is he deleting his name off the ] page? Anyone who has been there knows he runs it. <small>—''the preceding ] comment is by'' ] (] • ]) {{{2|}}}</small> | |||
| The sentence about my involvement in anti-filtering campaigns is also inaccurate. It is true that a briefly ran an anti-filtering website, a fact that is less interesting than my activism against pro-filtering librarians and activists. The sentence falsely implies that the Anarchist Librarians Web was short-lived--in fact, it is still online and has been online for 10 years. I was a co-founder of the "anarchist librarians movement" which got started 10 years ago and currently has an active e-mail list of over 300 people. ] (]) 15:39, 13 March 2008 (UTC) | |||
| == Notable critics == | |||
| : I am definitively an "outsider" to this article/topic, and so I have no investment here other than very general Misplaced Pages principles and policies. I would simply like to observe that, while it is reasonable for a living person as a "subject" to comment on the article and even to edit in particular ways, BLP (and Misplaced Pages more generally) does not give a privileged position to the "subject" of an article when it comes to editing. It is simply untrue that the subject ''must'' be consulted prior to editing, and decisions about what is "relevant" are a matter of debate and consensus. ] (]) 16:07, 13 March 2008 (UTC) | |||
| If Anderberg is the most notable critic of Munson then the link to her article should stay, crazy or not. But if there is a more notable critic, we could use that person instead. Can Chuck0 suggest who the most notable critic of Chuck Munson is? Thanks, -] 23:34, August 19, 2005 (UTC) | |||
| :Since when has Kirsten been crazy? I like her work. I haven't read that article though. <small>—''the preceding ] comment is by'' ] (] • ]) {{{2|}}}</small> | |||
| ::Hey, that was me before I had a user name! I take that back, she is a bit crazy at times (but some of her stuff is good). ] 22:37, 10 July 2006 (UTC) | |||
| ::Chuck didn't say that you "must" consult him, just that we "ought" to, which makes a heck of a lot of sense. ] (]) 16:36, 13 March 2008 (UTC) | |||
| So when is somebody going to remove the link to the libelous criticism of me from Kirsten Anderberg? As I understand it, criticism added to Misplaced Pages entries has to be sourced to something serious and published. When are rants posted to the blog of a mentally unbalance individual considered legitimate criticism. I've alreayd refuted the lies and slander in her rant, including pointing out that I added her as a paid writer to Infoshop in order to support and promote more female radical writers. Anderberg is a mentally unstable individual. Just read her blog or any of her rants. She lashes out at everybody, including her friends. ] 20:47, 12 July 2006 (UTC) | |||
| :::Right. Perhaps I should have bolded '''ought''' to underscore that I wasn't demanding that I be consulted. My point was that ''I'm here'' and can answer questions and provide citations. Just trying to be helpful. ] (]) 03:53, 14 March 2008 (UTC) | |||
| ::I removed the Anderberg article. She is a perenial internet troll who makes outlandish and factually incorrect claims on the regular. ] | |||
| :::Why did Munson attempt to remove my note here from the Talk page? I removed an unfair, factually incorrect article as per his request, he seemed to have no problem with its removal, but does not want the mention of why it was removed? Strange. I would appreciate if explinations for editing choices were respected, even if disagreed with. Does Chuck want the Anderberg piece put back up? ] | |||
| Yo, thanks for responding (and not reverting), Chuck. I was motivated to start expanding this article after I noticed your userpage was a better resource on the subject than our article; the sources are scant and I had to fill in the gaps a little in places. So apologies for the error with regard to the Anarchist Librarians Web; the Kansas City info I took from the source. If you want a better picture of your filtering activism, just point us to a source with the info and we will add it in. As for the anarchist without adjectives/anarcho-capitalism reference, I thought it gave the reader a good idea of what kind of anarchist you are. I reworded the sentence to make it less leading, I hope the new version is an improvement. | |||
| ===Dispute Over D.C. IMC=== | |||
| 10/23/06: Look Chuck, I was at those meetings and was one of many who did the work. "You" did not in fact "write the coop plan" nor were "you" "instrumental" in moving DC Indymedia into Flemming. Taking credit for this work is pretty much a gigantic insult to the people who did the work. You suggested a "coop plan" that people read. You were a member of the Brian McKenzie Infoshop that also moved into Flemming. There were many eye witnesses, and inflating yourself is just making you look stupid. | |||
| As regards asking you before making changes to this article, the proposition is of course ridiculous; this is a 💕 which anyone can edit and no-one ] any article. If you intend on monitoring this page regularly, it is probably a good idea to give you a heads-up so that easily-rebutted info such as that on Kansas City can be prevented from going in. I'm still not happy with the state of the article; it relies far too heavily on the subject as a source, is a scattered and patchy biography and has no criticism of someone who is no stranger to ideological/movementarian conflict. For my part, if I continue to try and expand the article (and all articles should be expanded with appropriate content, ] permitting) I'll keep in mind your willingness to help keep the facts in check. It's worth remembering though, that your status as a notable Wikipedian affords you no authority here. Regards, ] 00:46, 14 March 2008 (UTC) | |||
| You did contribute a few articles to DC Indymedia, and occasionally came to meetings and staffed convergence spaces a few times. | |||
| Your IP got banned by DC Indymedia techs, who wrote code just to block you, after you flooded the site with endless personal attacks, demanding to get your way. This same behavior got you kicked off other DC activist lists. | |||
| :Hey Chuck0, it's me, earthworm. I'm not going to edit the article because I know you, but I do echo Murderbike's sentiment that it makes an awful lot of sense to run something by the wold's foremost expert on a subject (which I would think Chuck0 would be on the subject of himself) for accuracy, if we happen to have him on hand. But I don't think anyone was implying any ownership of the article :-) ] <small>]</small> 02:06, 14 March 2008 (UTC) | |||
| I respect the Infoshop site which takes alot of work to keep up. But, repeating stupid behavior makes your hard work useless. - From DC | |||
| :: It's not a big deal, but I'm active on Misplaced Pages, even if most of that activity means that I'm reading articles and watching pages. Yes, this biography represents a patchwork of edits over the years. That's what Misplaced Pages produces. I think that the article is too long by current Misplaced Pages standards, even though I'm an "inclusionist" who thinks that articles should be longer, rather than shorter. This entry was started several years ago, back in the "Wild West" days of Misplaced Pages. This article was started (not by me) back when most articles didn't have citations and editors were throwing in everything save the kitchen sink. | |||
| ::I have no recollection of ever being banned from DC Indymedia or any activist email lists. The fact that anonymous people are making up these stories should say something about the veracity of these stupid allegations. I remember writing a draft of the co-op plan and selling the idea at several meetings. The plan was changed over time as DC Indymedia members talked it over. I was instrumental in talking to people about the DC Indymedia moving into the Flemming Center. Of course, I wasn't the only person involved in that project, but I never said that I did all of the work. I was involved at the time with the infoshop moving into the space (which just celebrated its 3rd anniversary there). I wasn't *just* a member of the infoshop, I was also working within the DC Indymedia and Mutualaid groups, promoting the projects in the center to other groups, and so on. Calling my activities at that time into question not only disrespects my work, but the work that was being done by other people. No, I didn't do everything, which I never claimed, but the work I did on that project was extensive. (I will also note that I was involved with the infoshop group for 4 YEARS before we moved into the Flemming Center, in addition to be involved with various activist projects and my own projects at the time). ] 01:11, 25 October 2006 (UTC) | |||
| :: Those of you who know me, or are long time editors, know that this entry has been frequently vandalized, both by people who dislike my politics and several crazies out there who thought they could use Misplaced Pages to facilitate their attacks. I was active in reverting many of those attacks, until Misplaced Pages developed a more reliable process of preventing the use of biography articles to attack people. I'm glad that things have settle down. I've also added material to this article back in 2006, just to provide more information about myself. | |||
| :::Chuck, I've really had it with you having lied through your teeth throughout this whole process of reverting my edits, in some vain attempt to keep up appearances. | |||
| :: I appreciate that ] has been using material from my blog to add citations. Part of the reason why I added that material to my blog was because some editors here were questioning every single fact about me in this entry. The number of "citations needed" that have been added to this article have been excessive, but it's good to see that more citations have been added. | |||
| :::Does this refresh your memory? This is the full text of attack postings that From DC wrote about: | |||
| :: I disagree with the suggestion that this entry needs more critical things about me. Adding that material would constitute a personal attack and would fall afoul of current Misplaced Pages guidelines about biographies and organizations. If I can't add critical links to organizational pages, then people shouldn't be using this entry to attack my reputation. I will end here by reiterating that almost all of the personal attacks that have been directed at me come from crazies and people who nitpick my politics. I'm actually ''not'' that controversial. I state my opinions like everybody else. ] (]) 03:53, 14 March 2008 (UTC) | |||
| <blockquote>'''Blocking access to IMC DC'''<br>'''Author: Chuck0''' | |||
| <br>'''Date Created: 02 Nov 2003''' | |||
| <br>Date Edited: 02 Nov 2003 08:37:45 PM | |||
| <br>Current rating: 5 | |||
| :::In the absence of evidence to the contrary, I'm more than willing to take your word for it. Thanks for having an even-handed attitude towards the matter. ] 00:31, 16 March 2008 (UTC) | |||
| <br>'''I'd like to know when the IMC DC editorial group is going to stop blocking my IP from accessing the IMC DC website.''' This is a pretty bad precedent, for an IMC to single out one media activist for total censorship. Some of you may think you are being really clever with this stunt, but I hope you understand that you are undermining DC activism with this petty decision. I can't do any media work on behalf of DC activists as long as you block me from the website. I can't do any work on behalf of Mayday DC. I can't post event announcements for the Infoshop or other groups. And I can't even post any original journalism that pertains to Washington, DC. You all have made this decision without any form of democratic or due process. | |||
| ==Anarchism without adjectives== | |||
| <br>Right now, your run-of-the-mill anti-semite enjoys more freedom on the IMC DC website than a respected, veteran activist.<br><br>Chuck0 | |||
| This statement is absurd: "Munson identifies as an anarchist without adjectives, describing himself as "an anarchist who is open-minded about anarchist ideas", and rejects the notion that anarcho-capitalism is a form of anarchism, citing its lack of opposition to "the hierarchical authoritarian capitalist workplace." If that's the case, then he's not an anarchist without adjectives. If a person is an anarchist without adjectives, that means he doesn't care what the proposed system is like, hierarchical auhotarian or not, as long as no one is forced to join that system. That's what anarchism without adjectives is. Voltairine de Cleyre described this way: "There is nothing un-Anarchistic about any of until the element of compulsion enters and obliges unwilling persons to remain in a community whose economic arrangements they do not agree to. (When I say 'do not agree to' I do not mean that they have a mere distaste for...I mean serious differences which in their opinion threaten their essential liberties...)...Therefore I say that each group of persons acting socially in freedom may choose any of the proposed systems, and be just as thorough-going Anarchists as those who select another." Claiming someone an anarchist without adjectives while saying he claims that anarcho-capitalism is not a form of anarchism is incoherent. That defies the meaning of the term. ] (]) 04:54, 7 April 2008 (UTC) | |||
| :I call Zaxlebax. We have two claims: | |||
| :1. Anarchism without adjectives is inclusive of, and only inclusive of, all types of anarchism | |||
| :2. Anarcho-capitalism is a type of anarchism | |||
| :Munson holds, perfectly consistently, the first claim while denying the second. You hold both claims. The only issue here is whether the second claim is true. To a left anarchist, "anarcho-capitalism" is as coherent as "anarcho-statism" or "dry wetness". There is no logical error, incoherence or absurdity afoot in Munson's point of view, you are just defining your terms differently. Nothing to see here. ] 05:02, 7 April 2008 (UTC) | |||
| <br>Homepage -> chuck.mahost.org/ | |||
| <br>Infoshop.org -> www.infoshop.org/ | |||
| <br>Monumental Mistake (blog)-> chuck.mahost.org/weblog/index.php | |||
| <br>Practical Anarchy Online -> www.practicalanarchy.org/ | |||
| <br>Infoshop Portal -> portal.infoshop.org/ | |||
| <br>Infoshop Science -> science.infoshop.org/ | |||
| <br>AIM: AgentHelloKitty<br><br>"...ironically, perhaps, the best organised dissenters in the world today are anarchists, who are busily undermining capitalism while the rest of the left is still trying to form committees." | |||
| Jeremy Hardy, The Guardian (UK)</blockquote>'' | |||
| ::No, that misses the point of anarchism without adjectives. Read what Cleyre said. "There is nothing unarchistic about.." If someone claims that a proposed "anarchist" system whose adherents don't say they will force anyone into their society is unarchistic, then he's not an anarchist without adjectives. What gave rise to anarchism without adjective is people claiming that each other's systems weren't genuine anarchism. So there is no way possible that he can be an anarchist without adjectives, as it's normally understood, that I can see. ] (]) 05:08, 7 April 2008 (UTC) | |||
| :::By the way, here is the link. --] 04:53, 25 October 2006 (UTC) | |||
| :::All it shows is that de Cleyre, Munson and Woodward have different conceptions of what AWA is. ] 05:16, 7 April 2008 (UTC) | |||
| ::This is a complete lie and fabrication. ] is attacking me on behalf of user ], which is ironic given that ] has links on his user page to Misplaced Pages community policies on "not using Misplaced Pages as a personal battleground." This is hypocritical, but more importantly ] is assisting In the Stacks in his online harassment campaign against me and his censorship of any links that are critical of organizations that In These Stacks belongs to or has an affinity for. I've been trying to prevent these sectarian nutjobs from removing links that anybody can see belong on this entry. I think that it's about time that ] and ] stop using Misplaced Pages talk pages to conduct their personal vendetta against me. People have a right to criticize organizations like the RCP and links to those criticisms should be posted. ] posts his criticisms of anarchist groups all the time to entries on anarchists, so he is just hypocritical about the RCP and ISO links. ] 16:08, 25 October 2006 (UTC) | |||
| ::::Or Munson is using the term without grasping the traditional meaning of the term. But of course no one says one has to be traditional to be an anarchist. Or do they? ] (]) 05:19, 7 April 2008 (UTC) | |||
| :::::If they did, your anarcho-capitalists would be in trouble ;) Nah, the way I see it the term just means "I recognize more than one form of anarchism, but the differences between forms are not important to me." ] 05:25, 7 April 2008 (UTC) | |||
| :: Just so we're clear, Anarcho-Capitalism isn't a species of Anarchism under *any* sane definition. Its a very confused and ahistorical pair of words to jam together. Remember, Anarchism is a political tradition whos core claim precludes any collaboration or affinity with Capitalists or others who seek to oppress their fellow human. Obviously. Its not a mere dictionary definition. ] (]) 08:05, 5 October 2022 (UTC) | |||
| ::: "From DC" -- thanks for reminding folks of the basic facts here. Munson was certainly banned from DC Indymedia, and has had issues elsewhere – including here on Misplaced Pages for using this entry as a personal page. He's taken to harrassing people and spreading anonymous disinformation. The pattern is pronounced, but since other people thoughtfully don't want to be the agents of Munson's karma, there have been few write-ups on his dubious activities. It might be worthwhile for the folks in DC who had to deal with these activities to detail them, as Munson's aggressive, online behavior is an ongoing issue. Munson's history of bannings (DC Indymedia, Misplaced Pages, library listserves, DC activist listserves) certainly merits mention in this entry.] | |||
| On another note, is this guy even notable enough for an article? Recently the ] article was deleted because he wasn't notable enough, and he doesn't seem to be any more notable than that guy. ] (]) 05:03, 7 April 2008 (UTC) | |||
| ::It's a good thing that ] hides behind anonymity because he plays with the facts more than the Bush administration. I'm just amazed that somebody would be so mean and petty that they would stalk me across the Internet and on Misplaced Pages talk pages. I've told friends about this and they just laugh their asses off. You can't even get your venom right when it comes to this talk page. A few days ago you edited a talk page by mistake, thinking that it was the regular entry about me on Misplaced Pages. You say above that I'm using this entry as my personal page. Which entry are you talking about? My Misplaced Pages user page or the Misplaced Pages bio about me? If you are referring to the latter, I'm definitely not using it as a personal page. Most of my edits to the page have been to correct false information and personal attacks posted to the page. | |||
| :Two AfD's seemed to think so: ], ]. In my opinion, being interviewed by the NYT and WashPo make someone notable enough. Bylund wouldn't get that coverage in a million years. ] 05:18, 7 April 2008 (UTC) | |||
| :: You have are simply being a wingnut when you say that a history of being "banned" from Internet projects. I've been on the Internet for around 15 years, so I've been on my share of email lists. I've also been part of numerous projects, including DC Indymedia. Like any other member of those projects, I've provided my share of positive contributions and I've gotten into my share of disputes. Conflicts and disputes are what happen in any organization. You are suggesting here that organizations are free of conflict, which is just silly. As for my history with Misplaced Pages, that is irrelevant to our current disputes. I have a right to defend myself from crazy people who use Misplaced Pages to attack me, or other folks. ] 00:58, 25 October 2006 (UTC) | |||
| ::I don't see what that makes someone notable enough for an article. My father for example, has been interviewed by NYT, WSJ, and other newspapers, more than Munson has, but I don't think that makes him notable enough for an article. People are interviewed by newspapers all the time. I don't see how someone getting 15 minutes of fame in a newspaper article make someone notable enough for an encyclopedia article. ] (]) | |||
| :: ] and ] are now fabricating rumors and lies about me in order to deflect attention away from their censorship of my contributions to Misplaced Pages. ] has demonstrated an obsessive need to protect his identity, so his anonymous personal attacks here should be taken with a grain of salt. ] is a friend of In the Stacks and should be seen as a proxy in this ongoing campaign against me using Misplaced Pages. | |||
| :::NYT etc are ]. On Misplaced Pages, if something has had non-trivial coverage (i.e. more than a passing mention) in multiple reliable sources, that means they are ] enough for an article. ] | |||
| ::I was in fact a member of DC Indymedia for three years, which isn't relevant to this dispute because it has nothing to do with the links that ] keeps removing from entries. For the record, I searched my computer and found the document that I wrote in February 2003 for DC Indymedia which promoted the co-op model. It is titled "Thoughts on a Co-Op Model for the IMC-DC" and here is an excerpt: | |||
| Jesus Christ! Do you guys have anything better to do than to argue about this arcane changes to an entry? This entry about little ole me is already too long, compared to most Misplaced Pages biographical entries. It's even stranger to read a section about my "thought" that emphasizes things that are pretty minor in terms of what I've written over the years. The stuff here about what I think about anarcho-capitalism is taken out of context. The recent changes consitute original research by a person who is simply using this entry to express their personal opinions about me. | |||
| I’ve been asked to share my thoughts on an co-op model for the IMC-DC, as a result of discussions | |||
| held at the recent IMC retreat. I have experience being a member of three different co-ops. I was | |||
| a member of the Mifflin Street food co-op in Madison, Wisconsin for several years in the early 90s. | |||
| At roughly this same time, I lived at the Rivendell housing co-op. Right after this period, I was | |||
| a volunteer at Rainbow Books, which is a cooperative bookstore in Madison. | |||
| At least somebody pointed out that this entry has survived two notability votes. I guess people have documented that I am indeed "notable" according to Misplaced Pages standards. I'm just wondering where the trophy is. Spooner should understand that several major newspapers have ''profiled'' me as a notable anarchist. That's different than being interviewed--I've been interviewed by a variety of media outlets. Don't see why any of this is relevant. The whol point of Misplaced Pages is to create a democratic encyclopedia. What's the point of Misplaced Pages if it isn't going to cover notable people in their fields? | |||
| One of the break-out discussion groups at the recent IMC retreat dealt with the idea of running the | |||
| Independent Media Center of Washington, DC on a co-op model. There was some discussion about how the | |||
| IMC kind of already functioned as a co-op. We also talked about what constitutes being a member in | |||
| the IMC. All of this relates to other ongoing discussions happening about the IMC, as well as the | |||
| fact that the IMC will shortly move into a new space. | |||
| It's also amusing to find out that I don't qualify as a de Cleyrist. I know what an ''anarchist without adjectives'' is. Do you really think that I've been an anarchist for more than 20 years and don't understand the concept? The '''whole point''' of anarchism without adjectives is that ''sectarian labeling'' within anarchism just isn't that important. That doesn't mean that an anarchist without adjectives doesn't hold some opinions about where the limits of anarchism lie. An anarchist without adjectives is usually anti-sectarian, but obviously there are some things that aren't anarchism. ] (]) 07:01, 8 April 2008 (UTC) | |||
| :: ] and ] are obviously unaware of this document, as they live in New York City and weren't active members of DC Indymedia. Of course, this is all just a deflection from the ongoing censorship of links to entries. ] 16:33, 25 October 2006 (UTC) | |||
| :"Jesus Christ! Do you guys have anything better to do than to argue about this arcane changes to an entry?" No, it gives us intense pleasure to debate the minutiae of some obscure policy on a website that is the anal-retentive's paradise; it is where the socially inadequate, particular-to-the-point-of-autism, power-hungry nerds get revenge on the world after a lifetime of persecution by getting to define '''The Truth<sup>tm</sup>'''. Go have a beer or talk to females or something, let us have our fun. ;) ] 14:24, 8 April 2008 (UTC) | |||
| :: Funny. ] (]) 16:38, 8 April 2008 (UTC) | |||
| :You're not an anarchist without adjectives. You're just twisting the meaning of the term. ] (]) 05:13, 9 April 2008 (UTC) | |||
| ::You are entitled to your opinion, but I know what my politics are. I've identified as an ''anarchist without adjectives'' since the 1980s. I know what it means. You don't. I know that you are annoyed with things I've said about anarcho-capitalism, but you should know that I've mellowed a bunch on that topic in the past year. This isn't the place to pick arguments with me or otherwise engage in discussions. ] (]) 03:44, 10 April 2008 (UTC) | |||
| ==Uh, Chuck, read ]. . .== | |||
| . . . and read the part on the difference between "original research" and "primary sources." The archive of D.C. Indymedia's editorial collective, which happens to include emails written by "the subject" (i.e. - you yourself). Feel free to deny that you were ever banned; the primary sources say otherwise. --] 18:12, 1 August 2006 (UTC) | |||
| "Munson identifies as an anarchist without adjectives, describing himself as "an anarchist who is open-minded about anarchist ideas", and rejects the notion that anarcho-capitalism is a form of anarchism, citing its lack of opposition to "the hierarchical authoritarian capitalist workplace." | |||
| ::First of all, do you care to state who you are so we can establish some accountability in this exchange. It's pretty clear that you posted a personal attack against me. This is rumor-mongering. You've posted a trivial incident that happened years ago in an effort to paint me in a bad light. You've provided no context to that incident. Your addition doesn't mention that the crux of that dispute was my anger at people who controlled the DC Indymedia website who were acting in a manner that ran contrary to Indymedia principles. Other people voiced similar criticisms. Your addition also doesn't mention that I was a member of DC Indymedia for several years, contributing original articles, doing trainings, attending meetings, and doing outreach. I even wrote up the co-op plan for DC Indymedia which they adopted when they moved into their space at the Flemming Center. I was also instrumental in getting the project to move into that space. | |||
| If there is a contradiction here, it's not important. What's important is that the sentence is an accurate statement of the subject's beliefs. Arguing about possible flaws in his reasoning does not seem germane to an encyclopedia article, unless we can source them from outside. ] (]) 23:47, 9 September 2008 (UTC) | |||
| ==Remove article== | |||
| ::The fact that I had a conflict with other DC Indymedia members is not noteworthy enough to be included in this article. If it's not selective, original research, then it's simply a mean-spirited personal attack. ] 18:29, 1 August 2006 (UTC) | |||
| I'd like to get this article removed from Misplaced Pages as the subject of this article. Can anybody advise? Do I have to nominate it again for non-notability? I am not a public figure and this biographical article is way longer than articles about famous people. ] (]) 16:13, 21 October 2009 (UTC) | |||
| :We don't delete articles on subject request, and articles that have been kept at deletion discussions (as this one has twice) cannot be deleted except through another deletion discussion (]). That said, the decisions to keep in previous discussions were marginal, norms have changed somewhat since, and editors tend to be sympathetic to subject requests, so a deletion proposal would have a fighting chance. If you like I can nominate it on your behalf. An alternative would be to quietly redirect it to ] or ], which would be fine as long as no-one objected. <span style="font-family:New York;"><span style="background-color:black; color:gray;">], ]</span></span> 16:18, 21 October 2009 (UTC) | |||
| ::I don't participate in Misplaced Pages any more, so I don't know the current norms or policies. I can live with this article staying here, but only if several things are removed. The main thing I will insist on being removed is the part about where I live. That provides no useful information to this entry and it's a violation of my privacy. I also want the link removed to my personal blog. I think these are reasonable requests. ] (]) 00:09, 22 October 2009 (UTC) | |||
| :::Actually, I'd also like removed the following: 1) The sentence about my academic background. Most biographical entries on Misplaced Pages don't include similar information and this is irrelevant to this entry; 2) the sentence about me working at the University Of Maryland. This entry is already too long for a biography of a non-notable subject, so I think these deletions will actually improve this article. ] (]) 00:12, 22 October 2009 (UTC) | |||
| ::::It's within discretionary range, so no objections from me. Are there any remaining issues with the article? <span style="font-family:New York;"><span style="background-color:black; color:gray;">], ]</span></span> 21:12, 7 November 2009 (UTC) | |||
| Can somebody delete the redirect? If the subject is non-notable, there shouldn't be a re-direct either. ] (]) 00:55, 4 November 2010 (UTC) | |||
| :Couldn't agree more, to be quite honest. -- <span style="font-family:Verdana;">]]]</span> 01:35, 7 November 2010 (UTC) | |||
| ==Remove anarchist stuff?== | |||
| ::Chuck, you can read my User Page and do your own googling. On my contribution on the entry on you (which is not "your" article that you have any control over): this isn't rumor mongering, it's a pretty well-documented incident that happened in the not-too-distant past. That you feel it portrays you in a negative light is unfortunate, but the incident is neutrally reported. That it lacks portrayal of you in a positive light is also unfortunate, but no one is under any obligation to make you look good (or ill, for that matter) but to tell the truth. | |||
| Can all, or some of the anarchist stuff, be removed from this entry, as I no longer identify myself as an anarchist? The "anarchism" and "anarchist without adjectives" boxes should at least be removed. ] (]) 22:26, 24 January 2010 (UTC) | |||
| :If we are going to go that route then there is not much point in retaining the article; as such, I've redirected it to ]. ] 22:37, 24 January 2010 (UTC) | |||
| ::Why would you do that? Infoshop.org is not me. It's a collective project. ] (]) 05:33, 25 January 2010 (UTC) | |||
| :::The material in question is sourced from emails sent to a listserver, which do not meet our standard for reliable sources, ]. Since the informaiton is derogatory, I have removed it in accordance with ]. If proper sources for the material can be found then it can be included. -] 19:22, 1 August 2006 (UTC) | |||
| ::::Thank you. I knew there probably was a logical Misplaced Pages policy that prevents people from adding information like this. ] 20:24, 1 August 2006 (UTC) | |||
| :::Chuck, are you saying your emails and your blog are not reliable? Because I didn't. --] 20:28, 1 August 2006 (UTC) | |||
| ::::The subject's blog may be used as a primary source for his opinions, but not as a source for anything else. Emails are easily spoofed and may not be used as sources for anything. -] 20:40, 1 August 2006 (UTC) | |||
| :::Munson is a blogger, partly why he's considered "notable" enough to have an entry. Are you, or Chuck, saying that his blog is 1) unreliable, and 2) a derogatory statement against Chuck's character? --] 21:15, 1 August 2006 (UTC) | |||
| ::::I believe this entry was first created because I am a prominent activist in the anarchist and anti-globalization movements. The stuff about blogging was added later. I really don't understand why you feel the need to add derogatory claims to a Misplaced Pages biography. The information that was added was completely decontextualized and cast me unfavorably. A susequent change went further to claim that I'm a controversial person on the Internet. If anything, this stuff violates Misplaced Pages's policies on Neutral Point of View. ] 21:38, 1 August 2006 (UTC) | |||
| :::Chuck, I really don't know why it is you feel that information that you blog about, sourced not through somebody else but through direct links, is "derogatory." And by the way, thanks for the gratuitous personal attack where you manage to continue in a long chain of just plain incorrect "outings." --] 21:50, 1 August 2006 (UTC) | |||
| == Protected == | |||
| This page is now protected due to the revert war. Please discuss the disputed material here and work to find a consensus version. -] 18:22, 8 August 2006 (UTC) | |||
| There is a consensus resolution on such matters; they're called ] and ]. This "revert war" has resulted entirely from Munson interfering in the addition of factual, well-sourced information on this entry simply because he dislikes what it says about him, as well as his attitude that this entry "belongs" to him. | |||
| In fact, his actions completely prove what was said about him -- all the more reason to have it included. --] 18:59, 8 August 2006 (UTC) | |||
| :The guideline ] does not prohibit a subject from editing a biography, it merely discourages the practice. The guideline ] requires that editors seek agreement. In this case the editors need to agree on how to present this information. Making sure that the presentation is NPOV is probably the most important factor in making the material mutually agreeable. -] 22:14, 8 August 2006 (UTC) | |||
| :Note also the ] is an important policy. We need to be doubly sure about the sourcing and NPOV of derogatory information about living people. -] 22:17, 8 August 2006 (UTC) | |||
| ::Since when were facts derogatory or not a matter of Misplaced Pages's criteria? They're facts, much more than the ] terms that are used in their absence. They're certainly not defamatory, or else Munson would have threatened a lawsuit by now. And since when were the subject's own blog postings on his opinion not considered evidence of his opinion? | |||
| ::Why don't you face it: we can't come to an agreement, because the subject is so sensitive about "his" Misplaced Pages entry that he is purposefully obstructing it in a 3RR violation. We'd entirely come to an agreement, were he not edit-warring in his own pissy interests. --] 02:18, 9 August 2006 (UTC) | |||
| :::Let me remind you that the subject is also an editor here. We have no tolerance for personal attacks on editors, ]. Please keep your opinions to yourself or you will not be allowed to edit here. -] 05:34, 9 August 2006 (UTC) | |||
| If there's no tolerance for "personal attacks", then why is Munson continually allowed to leave them in edit summaries and on Talk Pages? --] 15:28, 9 August 2006 (UTC) | |||
| ::Fascinating. Any cursory review of Munson's editing history involves chronic attacks on his self-selected enemies. Further, as a matter of habit, he engages in unsubstantiated personal attacks. These can be observed as Daniel notes above. Noting his history of being banned from various activist project and electronic media is not defamatory. Munson was blocked from DC Indymedia and numerous other projects for exactly this kind of behavior. Refusing to allow a note of it is strange, particularly when it is the subject of this entry who is refusing to allow any content on his page that doesn't meet his approval -- facts be damned! ] | |||
| :::Facts are what an encyclopedia is all about. Cold hard facts are hard to find, though, and even harder to present neutrally. At Misplaced Pages we've recently upgraded our treatment of living people by adopting a new policy: ]. Among all of our categories of articles, biographies of living people deserve the greatest care. As with all articles, verifiable information presented neutrally is acceptabe. Derogatory material without proper sourcing should be removed. I'm sure we can all agree on the simple facts of the matter, and we needn't speculate beyond that. Misplaced Pages is not a place to settle scores. -] 10:14, 11 August 2006 (UTC) | |||
| ::The facts are that Chuck Munson has been banned from commenting/contributing to several websites for his actions: D.C. Indymedia, Misplaced Pages, and elsewhere. This is established by the fact that he whined about these bans ''on his own blog'', which was cited. But apparently, Munson wants to deny the fact that these bans even occurred, and has engaged in typical edit warring. | |||
| ::The ] stuff was meant to keep Misplaced Pages from becoming a hive of just plain false -- e.g., defamatory and libelous -- information that could get the website sued. There isn't anything "derogatory" about the facts about a subject; that is, unless the subject has a vested interest in obfuscation, which from his actions is plain to see. --] 15:28, 11 August 2006 (UTC) | |||
| ==Compromise== | |||
| If people really, really want to include some criticism of me in this entry, I would be ok with putting back the article by Kirsten Anderberg. The rant is totally inaccurate and easy to refute, but at least she published it on her blog. Or, if people want another piece of criticism, you can cite the small bit about me in the latest issue of ''Green Anarchy.'' ] 15:39, 16 August 2006 (UTC) | |||
| ::In other words, you're only interested in criticism when you can easily dismiss it. As opposed to when it's documented, objective, and to-the-point. You got banned from Misplaced Pages (whose editors you then went on to curse out on your blog for not letting you edit your page) and banned by D.C. Indymedia for flooding the wire. While it may not satisfy your ego that two online communities you've used for self-promotion decided you were too much of a pest, it's at least factual information. --] 15:58, 16 August 2006 (UTC) | |||
| :::I'm sorry, but I haven't used either of these communities for self-promotion. You really don't know anything about me, do you? The Misplaced Pages entry about me was created by somebody else. I've added a few things to explain the kind of work that I do, but if anything, this entry really understates my contributions and activities. ] 16:47, 16 August 2006 (UTC) | |||
| ::i agree with daniel that the anderberg piece should stay down, even if Chuck wants it up. The reason? It's just generalized ad hominum attacks and ranting. The information about his history of bitter entanglements with Indymedia and Misplaced Pages seems entirely fair, fact-based and not derogatory. there is no claim that these situations did not happen, or that Chuck M. has not himself documented them. Attempts to remove what may be taken as unflattering are just the same as padding a resume. Compromise: The disputes stay up, hackneyed and raving attacks get taken down. Since he is a living person, obviously the rules of Misplaced Pages governing the situation are in full effect -- and more than fair. They just don't apply to things that have actually happened, that are obviously of import for what makes this person tick, and that are not in dispute. Chuck M. doesn't want people to read about them NOW, though he clearly put much time into it in the past... hence, a biographical entry... not an auto-biographical entry. ] | |||
| ::: I'm not interested in compromising with somebody who has a long history of posting defamatory material about me to various websites. I think that any rational Misplaced Pages volunteer would agree that it is absurd to expect me to compromise with such a person. Your twisting of this discussion would end up violating the Misplaced Pages policy that is clearly posted above: "This article must adhere to the biographies of living persons policy as it directly concerns one or more living people. Poorly sourced, potentially libellous material must be removed immediately." In The Stacks is clearly trying to use Misplaced Pages to continue his attacks against my reputation. This would be considered libel by any legal definition. | |||
| ::: Links to e-mail lists are not credible sources and since nothing about these allegations exist on my blog, there is no acceptable reason for In the Stacks to use this entry to libel me. What In the Stacks proposes would violate Misplaced Pages's policies about biographies and proportionality. Once again, I propose that the Anderberg link be put up again and that the unsourced material be left out of the entry. If people want another critical link relating to me, then I'll suggest Carol Moore's . Otherwise, what In the Stacks is proposing to add is unsourced hearsay and rumors. | |||
| ::Chuck, you are just plain off the mark here. I was the one who put up the information -- not Stacks. And no, I'm not a "sock puppet" of his, since it's quite obvious (by the fact that I use my real-world name here) that I'm not Stacks. | |||
| ::First, you trivialize the evidence put forward. The emails in question weren't just emails, they were the emails of the official D.C. Indymedia editorial list. The list-serv quite secure, from what I understand, and there's no reason to believe people are going around impersonating your former co-collective members - or yourself. | |||
| ::Second, you're obfuscating, if not outright lying, about never having stated on your blog that you were banned. You did, in fact, do so -- and later hid it. However, it's still Google cached and ready to see here: http://64.233.161.104/search?q=cache:TprkAo6Pq2gJ:chuck.mahost.org/weblog/%3Fp%3D290+site:chuck.mahost.org+banned+Indymedia&hl=en&gl=us&ct=clnk&cd=1&client=firefox-a | |||
| ::In case you were wondering, what you wrote was this:<blockquote>About two weeks ago, several people affiliated with the DC Independent Media Center instituted a ban against me, which prevents me from not only posting to the IMC DC website, but prevents me from even viewing the IMC DC website.</blockquote> | |||
| ::This entry is date-stamped November 6, 2003. This happens to coincide with the date on the email (exact date November 12, 2003) that explains why you were banned: http://archives.lists.indymedia.org/imc-dc-editorial/2003-November/005919.html . | |||
| ::The evidence is ample, and the only reason for the passages' has been your attempt to steer the direction of "your" article in a manner that is antithetical to the aims of Misplaced Pages. --] 05:06, 21 August 2006 (UTC) | |||
| ::By the way, Chuck, would you like to tell us which administrator you went to with your accusation of libel, and when I should expect to be served notice by your lawyers? Or is this another attempt at chilling debate using ]? --] 05:16, 21 August 2006 (UTC) | |||
| :::What is your beef with me? As far as I can tell from looking at your profile, you are friends or comrades offline with the person who attacks me using the account here "In the Stacks." It appears that he is using you as a proxy at this point, which would be typical behavior for him. If that is the case, I suggest you recuse yourself from this discussion and find something else to do at Misplaced Pages. ] 06:18, 21 August 2006 (UTC) | |||
| :::There is nothing on my blog about these so-called accusations, so you are just fishing here for a cheap way to attack me. Am I trying to chill debate using legal threats? Where the hell do you get such an idea? When I pointed out that the stuff being posted could be construed as libel, I was merely pointing out that Misplaced Pages HAS A POLICY, stated above, against the inclusion of material in biographical entries that could constitute libel. The content that two of you are attempting to add to my entry consists of unsourced hearsay and innuendo. This information does not add anything of importance to the entry, if it were true. ] 06:18, 21 August 2006 (UTC) | |||
| ::Truth is an absolute defense against libel. You posted about the ban to your blog, it is really just plain to see for all those who see the Google cache, and unless you libeled yourself you're confirming what's just as plain to see from the D.C. IMC list emails. | |||
| ::Chuck, please, just get over it. You got IP banned, and that's that. --] 19:57, 21 August 2006 (UTC) | |||
| :::"Truth" is not a concern for Misplaced Pages. Our concern is ]. Also note that our job is to create neutral, balanced articles, not attack pieces. -] 22:21, 21 August 2006 (UTC) | |||
| ::Chuck's blog does the verification. Now will you and Chuck quit filibustering, and quit acting as if editing is all about stoking Chuck's ego? --] 03:32, 22 August 2006 (UTC) | |||
| :::We can include balanced material that is properly sourced. Do you have a reliable source for this assertion? -] 04:26, 22 August 2006 (UTC) | |||
| ::The reliable source is Chuck Munson's blog posting from the time period and the emails. Before we go into another circle-jerk - note that a) Chuck's blog is considered noteworthy enough to be included in this page, b) that D.C. Indymedia network relies upon secure and moderated list-servs, because these emails are used for official purposes (moderation of disputes, etc.), and c) the D.C. Indymedia stuff is totally relevant since Chuck mentions his role there. All of which should lead one to believe that this is worthy of citation. | |||
| ::What is unreliable, Will, is Chuck Munson's word right now, as he is making a bald-faced lie that he never wrote a blog post admitting that he got banned. The blog post is merely hidden - it is still available via Google cache, and it states right away that he got banned. Period. End of story. Note as well that while Chuck has lied about the blog posting, he has only chosen to mislead and use euphemism on the question of the ban itself -- all the while engaging in personal attacks in an attempt to shoot-the-messenger. | |||
| ::As for Chuck's proposal, none of the links he lists are any more credible than the ones I provided. My own proposal is that Chuck be banned from tampering with this article permanently, in light of his established record of doing this. --] 14:18, 22 August 2006 (UTC) | |||
| :::Emails and Google caches are not reliable sources. One of the reasons why we have the ] policy is that it sets a baseline for notability of facts. It may be a fact that a subject leaves the toilet lid up or helps little old ladies across the street, but unless those facts have been reported in reliable sources then they are both unverifiable and non-notable. The fact, if it is one, that this subject has been banned from some forums is not notable enough to have been discussed in a newspaper or magazine. It's hard not to see it as a very minor episode. Your single-minded intent to include the information makes it appear that your interest isn't in helping Misplaced Pages build a better encyclopedia, but in settling some score with the subject. ]. -] 20:16, 22 August 2006 (UTC) | |||
| ::I have no personal axes to grind with Chuck. I've never met the man -- and after this interaction, I have no intention on ever doing so. | |||
| ::I would question your logic on the notability of Chuck Munson's blog. If Chuck Munson's blog is not notable, then the link to the blog in the article should be removed as blogspam. And moreover, if it this is a "minor episode" in Munson's activism career, then why is Chuck fighting this to the point that he is using legal threats? --] 20:59, 22 August 2006 (UTC) | |||
| :::Legal threats are not allowed on Misplaced Pages. If the subject has made one then it should be removed. Per ] and ], blogs and other personal sites may be used only as primary sources for the author's viewpoints. If Munson's blog contains commentary on the matter then we can reference that commentary. The degree to which a subject objects to information is not an objective measure of its notability. -] 21:20, 22 August 2006 (UTC) | |||
| ::Will, thanks for your diligent participation here. It should be clear that I have made no legal threats. In the above discussion I pointed out that certain material about me could be seen as libelous, which would violate Misplaced Pages's policies. I didn't say anything about ''acting'' on this through legal means. As an anarchist, I am extremely reluctant to resort to legal channels. As far as the severity of this material being libelous, it is pretty minor, given that my reputation has been subjected to far worse rumor-mongering and so on. But Misplaced Pages discourages this kind of content and I think that this kind of material just doesn't belong in any reference source unless it is newsworthy. As for my blog being notable--it is notable in terms of it being one of my projects, thus relevant to an entry about me. The blog is widely read, at least that's what Technorati says in its ratings. ] 17:15, 23 August 2006 (UTC) | |||
| ::Chuck, really, you're arguing about the number of angels on the head of a pin. Misplaced Pages's policy on libel is meant for one thing: to make sure the Misplaced Pages Foundation doesn't get dragged into a libel suit. You had absolutely no grounds to bring the L word into this, unless what was posted fulfilled the legal definition of it. It did not. In fact, I'd bet you wouldn't want a lawsuit, given that it would mean this would be put to discovery as a matter of legal record. | |||
| ::As for newsworthiness, Chuck -- you were banned from D.C. Indymedia for postings you made to the IMC's newswire. Repeatedly. You obviously felt the internal workings of the D.C. Indymedia collective, and your role in that, were newsworthy when you posted that stuff. Suddenly it isn't, because your former co-collective members decided to take disciplinary action? Your conflict of interest (and insertion of POV into this entry) is showing. | |||
| ::And by the way, Chuck, thank you for asserting that your blog is notable in an article about you. Now would you kindly cease censoring its citation of the posting you made to this wonderful, notable blog about you, where you publicly stated you had your IP banned by D.C. Indymedia. --] 00:51, 24 August 2006 (UTC) | |||
| :::Daniel, you are living in a fantasy world. You obviously know nothing about my history with D.C. Indymedia, other than some rumors that your buddy told you. It's pretty sad that you guys have stooped to using Misplaced Pages for your rumor-mongering. As for libel, whether something is libellous is determined in a court of law. All I know is that Misplaced Pages has a policy which discourages potentially libellous additions. The content in question here may fall outside of that policy, but that policy and others are pretty clear that Misplaced Pages entries shouldn't be used for personal attacks. The content that you are trying to add, if true, is incredibly trivial. The only reason that you and others are trying to add it is to attack my reputation. I suggest that you find other outlets for your anger and leave Misplaced Pages out of it. ] 17:26, 31 August 2006 (UTC) | |||
| ::::I think I have to agree with Chuck on this one. I personally had not heard anything about this DC indymedia thing until it was brought up here, so I'm not sure it's really all that notable. Unless I've just been under a rock, it seems pretty trivial. ]] 06:28, 3 September 2006 (UTC) | |||
| == Protection == | |||
| Edit warring over a template? What's going on here exactly? Please use the talk page to discuss your differences in a civil manner. ] 18:06, 25 October 2006 (UTC) | |||
| :Your protection of the current page introduces a point of view to the entry. The template basically states that all of the content below that point is in dispute, when in fact NONE of that content is in dispute. What is in dispute are some allegations posted to THIS TALK PAGE. Your protection of the page is a tacit sign of support for the users who are using Misplaced Pages to conduct personal attacks. You may think that you are helping this situation, but you've simply discredited yourself and Misplaced Pages even more. Several users are engaging in personal attacks against me using Misplaced Pages because they have unilaterally decided that I can't post links to several pages. One of these users has even posted on Misplaced Pages that he won't allow these links to appear on these pages. This is a violation of Misplaced Pages's policies and it principles. ] 18:31, 25 October 2006 (UTC) | |||
| ::As per our ]: "A protection is ''not'' an endorsement of the current version." The solution is to address the issues at hand and not worry about what version is protected by a temporary block or by attacking the person who is attempting to solve this problem. | |||
| ::Now the editor or editors who are disputing that section of the article should post here a concise account of what disputes they have with the factual accuracy of that section. If they do not do so in a timely manner I will remove the template myself and remove it again if it is restored. If they do post whatever issues they have then we can address them. ] 18:41, 25 October 2006 (UTC) | |||
| :::Actually, the entry on Chuck Munson (User Chuck0) is in dispute. | |||
| :::The nature of the dispute is, at this point, manifold. Chuck Munson is an ideologically motivated partisan who has a history of engaging in flame wars and disruption of various left-wing activist listserves and websites. Regarding the entry on Munson as a person, he has attempted to remove any notes regarding this history, including in several instances where clear documentation is available. | |||
| :::On several other entries, notably ], ] and ], USA, Munson has attempted to insert anonymous, unsourced and factually incorrect links to pages on the website ], of which he is the owner/operator. While Munson claims his website is "anarchist", it is a personal service of his with a history of posting inflamitory, factually incorrect materials. In one important case, the anonymous, unsigned materials he hosted were cited as a direct pretext for the arrest of several hundred people in a non-violent protest in Washington, DC. I mention this because he is well-known among activsts as something of a provocateur. This pattern of behavior, including over-the-top personal insults and political sectarianism of monumental proportions, has led Munson to be banned from one major Indymedia project, as well as a professional listserve for librarians – and, in the past, here at Misplaced Pages. A different editor posted a documented list of these instances, which Munson has made every effort to have kept off of the entry on himself. I'm not sure of the rules, which seem pretty flexible depending on who gets involved, but these instances are all verifiable. A browse back through the editorial history of this entry should bring them up. | |||
| :::I've never met Munson – but I am aware that his attempt to insert unsigned and unsourced attack pieces violate Misplaced Pages's standard of verifiability. If he continues posting unsourced, anonymous and factually incorrect libel pieces, I will continue to remove them where discovered – ''regardless'' of who his self-selected targets are. I don't care if he does it to the John Birch Society or the Zoroastrians. The issue is not "agreement," it is verifiability. In the case of all three entries (besides this one) that are at issue, criticism is ''already'' included. Of course it is, and that is not at issue as the history of edits on each of those respective pages plainly shows. Each external link to criticism is signed, and the linked external authors assume full legal responsibility for their claims. Should the anonymous, libelous pieces Munson hosts and is attempting to place here be signed, the respective authors will then be ''personally'' liable for ''each'' claim they make. Short of that, Munson is attempting to hide behind neutral platforms such as Misplaced Pages to engage in libel. | |||
| :::On my end, what I would like to see is for Munson to stop engaging in entry vandalism, to stop encouraging other users to vandalize Wiki pages (as he does on both his personal blog and the Infoshop website) and to stop editing his own page to remove what he sees as unflattering, but entirely verifiable materials related to '''exactly''' this pattern of behavior. Despite Munson's attempts to make this seem like some kind of personal dispute, it is not.] | |||
| ::::Your opinions about Munson do not address the matter of what is factually in dispute about '''this particular article'''. If you have issues with Munson's behavior, take it up on his personal talk page or file an ]. This is not the proper forum. ] 19:20, 25 October 2006 (UTC) | |||
| ::::: Thank you. I for one would like to see In the Stacks stop interfering in my participation on Misplaced Pages. This is what this is really about. ] 19:23, 25 October 2006 (UTC) | |||
| :::::In this article, the information (with citations) related to Munson's contentious internet activism should be included so long as it is verifiable. From what I saw, it certainly was – with linked footnotes to the appropriate sources. I was not the author of this information, though I am familiar with his history. I'm at work now and have exhausted my free time to deal with this for the day. The information regarding his bans from numerous online forums is not ''factually'' in dispute, nor regarding its ''verifiability''. Munson just finds it unflattering, and has attempted to keep it off the page. As this online activism is his main point of note regarding the entry, the current entry bears little resemblance to the really-existing Munson. He is welcome to participate in Misplaced Pages, but should read the above note. Also, thanks to Gamaliel for explaining how to file a complaint. I will be pursuing that. ] | |||
| ::::::Could you provide a link to the ] where Munson removed material you would like to see in the article? If we can agree on a mutually acceptable version of this material that is within Misplaced Pages guidelines, then we can end this dispute. ] 20:03, 25 October 2006 (UTC) | |||
| ::::Certainly. There are several complaints here: | |||
| ::::1) Most recently, Chuck0 reverted the application of a Disputed template to the section desribing his activism: | |||
| ::::This is in dispute because a) Munson added several of the passages contained there himself, b) provided no citation of his claims, and c) someone claiming at some personal knowledge of events described there (Chuck's supposed co-operative plan for the D.C. Indymedia Center) contradicted those claims. | |||
| ::::Chuck replied to placement of the Disputed tag by reverting its addition by myself (and later, In The Stacks' reversions), claiming "vandalism". Further, Munson started revert war on this Talk Page, over matters which I will get to in the next point. | |||
| ::::2) Back in August, Chuck0 started a revert war over an addition I made within the article, (see this diff: ), in which I attempted to bring the article away from POV (that is, the POV of Munson and his supporters) toward NPOV; that is, I put forward evidence that projects and groups Munson either claims to have started or to claims to have have been a major member of (D.C. Anti-Capitalist Convergence and D.C. Indymedia) ended up either pushing him out or disciplining him over his behavior; also, I felt Chuck's description of himself as a pioneer of the internet ought to have been balanced with a description of his reputation on the internet is. | |||
| ::::This evidence included the following: | |||
| ::::* Emails from the official list-serv of the D.C. Editorial Colletive, which described how Chuck Munson had been I.P. banned from using the D.C. Indymedia open publishing feature. | |||
| ::::* The Google-cache (since expired) of a deleted blog entry from "another blog is possible" (Chuck's blog), that was dated within November 2003, in which Chuck0 clearly described that very same ban. | |||
| ::::* A blog entry (still up) in which Chuck gave his own account of how he got banned from a librarian's list-serv for what he himself called a "confrontational approach." | |||
| ::::* A link to an IP ban issued against Chuck from Misplaced Pages itself (!) for having edited the very entry we're talking about. | |||
| ::::I attempted to sort things out here, and Chuck basically responded by denying that any of the above incidents ever happened. He managed to convince someone that the evidence provided and cited should be ignored, under what I feel are dubious grounds. Shortly after that, the article was locked. | |||
| ::::When the article went unlocked, this issue flared up like a hemmroid again, with In The Stacks and Chuck trading reverts on this article (centered around the IP ban issue). Chuck claimed up and down that either that he didn't recall any such ban or denied it outright. | |||
| ::::In response, I came forward with new evidence here, that included posting a link and the whole contents (verbatim) an Indymedia article signed in Chuck Munson's name, that included Chuck's sign-off (e.g., links to his site, Infoshop, and his blog). In that article, he is clearly talking about an IP ban against him. I did, however, post it on the Talk Page, rather than the main page. | |||
| ::::On the most NPOV manner of dealing with what I wrote, understand that I wrote the most NPOV possible excerpt on Chuck having been banned from discussion lists, Indymedia, and Misplaced Pages. I made no mention of whether these bans were justified, just that they happened, and unlike Chuck and his puff-piece additions I actually bothered to show the evidence. | |||
| ::::And still, Chuck insists on just plain lying about it when confronted with the evidence. I mean, at what point can we just say that Chuck has no business attempting to turn this article into some padded resume? --] 01:28, 26 October 2006 (UTC) | |||
| :: Once again, you are acting as a proxy for In The Stacks, using Misplaced Pages to further that person's online harassment of me, which goes back years. I have been extremely patient in my efforts to contribute constructively to Misplaced Pages. I have seen my edits censored by In The Stacks, who has decreed in violation of Misplaced Pages policies, that he is the final authority on which critical links are added to several entries. At the same time, this person launched personal attacks against me using Misplaced Pages, something this individual has been doing for months. Now this individual has enlisted a friend of his in NYC, ], as a proxy in his flame war against me. This has to stop now. I am NOT the issue here. Censorship of my reasonable contributions is the issue. ] 03:54, 26 October 2006 (UTC) | |||
| :: Daniel, you are being a complete hypocrite here. If you have so much time on your hands, why don't you go look through ]'s history file? Or how about the history file for his other IPs? I have a challenge for you--if you are so incensed about reverts that are documented in history files, check out what your buddy ] has been up to. He is the one that started this dispute, by removing links that I added to several articles. | |||
| :: What you think happened in groups that I was involved with is not relevent here. You weren't part of '''any''' of those groups, so you are getting things thirdhand, in this case from an individual who has a long history of attacking me around the Internet. My guess is that ] asked you to go after me personally, because he wasn't getting his way with keeping information off of entries. I just don't get why you guys are so obsessed with keeping a bit of criticism from several entries. ] 04:09, 26 October 2006 (UTC) | |||
| ::::Yes, Chuck, why don't we look at the history file, shall we? I've edited In the Stacks's work on ] several times where he was inserting POV (truth be told, Stacks has been a lot better Wiki-housebroken than you for a newb). If you'll recall (or better yet, bother to read ]) I told ''both of you'' to chill out. I thought, at first, that you were simply an anarchist honestly concerned about documenting the sort of leftist minutiae of polemics between Maoists and anarchists, which at least made your linkbaiting in the RCP article seem reasonable. | |||
| ::::Since then, given your devil may care approach, in which the only overriding principle was keeping Misplaced Pages linked to your sites, however, it looks more like you're the same old sort of unprincipled blogger/site owner who thinks Misplaced Pages is just here to pump up your Alexa rank -- i.e. troll -- and who could be found lurking on any number of sites. | |||
| ::::By the way, do a little research before you mouth off on who's a sock puppet of whom -- I've had nothing to do with In the Stacks, especially seeing as I've been editing Misplaced Pages far longer than him. Oh yeah, and I also happen to be an entirely different person, too. Maybe I need to keep that clear, given that looking at old Infoshop, Indymedia, and blog entries, it's clear you've had this problem of falsely ID'ing people, too. | |||
| ::::If you want the truth, Chuck, I had zero interest in your article until I felt compelled to investigate your activities on Misplaced Pages before attempting to police the RCP, USA article any further. I really don't need people to give me tips in order to do my own damn research -- literally, all I needed to do were Google searches of various combinations of "Chuck0" "Chuck Munson" "ban" "Indymedia" with the limiters of "site:http://chuck.mahost.org" and "site:dc.indymedia.org". | |||
| ::::And there's the real sad part, Chuck. You've admitted to being banned on Misplaced Pages and Indymedia '''on your own blog''' -- that is, before you cleansed those entries off. Along with a subtle essay as to your sense of tact here, entitled "Fuck Misplaced Pages." --] 05:17, 26 October 2006 (UTC) | |||
| ::: Daniel, you are flailing around here. Jed put you up to attacking me as a proxy and now you are getting mud all over yourself. What a poor decision on your part. I know that you are a different person from Jed, but I know from your own user page that you live in New York City, like Jed, and you are a fan of the Maoists. It's isn't that difficult to draw a connection between the two of you. You are even recycling the same garbage that In the Stacks spreads around about me. Come on, don't play the "concerned Wikipedian" here because your allegiances are clear. | |||
| :::Oh yes, I just looked at the history for several of the entries in question. What's obvious is that entry histories are not the most accurate representation of the context involved in editing disputes. People make changes when they aren't logged in. They make changes from various IPs and user accounts. In the Stacks has even gotten confused to the point where he accused Ungovernable Force of being my sockpuppet. So I looked at the history files for the ISO, RCP and WCW entries. The seeds of this dispute go back to at least June 2006, when In the Stacks started removing links to Infoshop pages as well as any anarchist criticism of these groups. I should note that edit wars on entries like the ISO go back to at least the beginning of this year and involve people outside of this dispute. | |||
| :::In late June, In the Stacks removed some links from the RCP page. I didn't start restoring links and text until late July. After several exchanges in August, I decided to create the page on the RCP and World Can't Wait, in order to source and document anarchist criticism of these groups. I made a good faith effort to document anarchist criticism of the RCP and WCW, which was what was being removed from entries on these groups. There is substantial anarchist criticism of the RCP. In the Stacks has shown that he will not allow even LINKS to pages that are critical of the RCP. | |||
| :::Again, you keep bringing up various allegations in order to attack my personal reputation. That's just sad. | |||
| :::As I've explained numerous times, I have never "linkbaited" the article on the RCP. Misplaced Pages exists to provide people with access to information, news and opinion. Every time that In the Stacks removes a link from these entries, he deprives Misplaced Pages users of being able to access the content on the other side of those links. As for your comments about Alexa and the need to pump up the traffic to websites/blogs--I don't need to do that because these websites and blogs are already popular. Alexa is not even an accurate measure of website popularity, but you wouldn't know that since you aren't a webmaster of web developer. Alexa's deficiencies are well known to programmers and web developers. ] 05:38, 26 October 2006 (UTC) | |||
| ::::You've now completely gone off the handle, defaced my talkpage twice, and managed to dissemble completely from the issue at hand. Why not just answer some very simple questions: | |||
| ::::* Do you deny complaining on your own blog that you'd been IP-banned from D.C. Indymedia? | |||
| ::::* Do you deny that your friends attempted to have that IP ban lifted? | |||
| ::::* Do you deny posting to the D.C. Indymedia newswire, whining that you were IP banned? | |||
| ::::* Do you deny having been blocked from librarian list-servs for your "confrontational approach?" | |||
| ::::Given that these have all been documented, and I've presented primary sources (i.e., your own words that somehow use your handle, your sign-offs, or the blog that only you can post to), I'm awaiting your latest conspiracy theory about someone being out to destroy your non-existant reputation by forging your friends signatures, your signature, and mind controlling you into writing on your blog. | |||
| ::::Oh yeah, and I'm beginning to document your current campaign of leaving personal attacks on my user page. Seriously, read ] before you shot your mouth again.--] 15:52, 26 October 2006 (UTC) | |||
| ==Let's try this again== | |||
| This bickering has long since gotten out of hand and it's going to stop now, please. Aside from being completely uninteresting, there's about 30 or 40 violations of ] and ] above. Let's focus on the '''content''' of the article and not personalities. Whatever attacks or breaches of the rules that were committed elsewhere can be dealt with elsewhere. If people don't feel like handling it that way, then I'm going to start removing posts and blocking repeat offenders. | |||
| Now in regards to the content of the article, note that this is an encyclopedia, and it is not enough that the subject of the article wrote or did something somewhere. It must be 1) important enough to be in an encyclopedia article and 2) it must be documented by a reliable source. Now the subject's own blog is a reliable source, only for the opinions and actions of that person. A contentious issue here seems to be whether or not we should include information about the various bans that Munson has allegedly been subject to. Is that correct? If so, then are these bans 1) reliably documented and 2) important enough to be included? Can we discuss that question in a civil manner? ] 16:51, 26 October 2006 (UTC) | |||
| :: I have decided not to stop responding to provocations by the other two parties. You make it sound like the content in the article about me is being disputed. It is not! The '''only''' reason why we are having this discussion here is because it was moved from another talk page, where we were arguing about the removal of content posted to articles that have '''nothing to do with me personally.''' The issue here are changes being made to articles about the ISO, RCP and WCW. The only reason why the article about me is being talked about is because one of the partisans in this debate decided to make this a personal dispute. The flagged section in the article about me has existed for '''months''' and has been seen by many Misplaced Pages editors. That section describes a few things that I'm involved in, which are all noteworthy. ], if you are going to get involved in this, it is incumbent upon you to understand the context. ] only questioned the content of this article yesterday, in an attempt to make a dispute about editing other pages more personal. ] 17:38, 26 October 2006 (UTC) | |||
| :::Whatever the underlying reasons for this personal conflict, there seem to be valid issues of content to be addressed, as seen in the section below. If you feel these issues of content have been brought up to harrass you by editors you have come into conflict with in the past, then perhaps a case for ] can be made. However, I'd prefer to see if we can come to a mutually acceptable compromise regarding this article and perhaps bring this conflict to an end in that manner. ] 18:08, 26 October 2006 (UTC) | |||
| ===Indeed, let's try again=== | |||
| :The article lists Chuck as a member of the D.C. Indymedia collective, librarian and as a guy with a presence of the web. Which is all fine and dandy by me -- but if that's considered important, then his actions (and interactions with others) are also important. | |||
| :The documentation of Chuck Munson being I.P. banned from D.C. Indymedia: | |||
| :* A google-cache of a page from his blog (since expired -- link was here - http://64.233.161.104/search?q=cache:TprkAo6Pq2gJ:chuck.mahost.org/weblog/%3Fp%3D290+site:chuck.mahost.org+banned+Indymedia&hl=en&gl=us&ct=clnk&cd=1&client=firefox-a) | |||
| :* Emails from the D.C. Indymedia list-serv, describing why Chuck got banned: http://archives.lists.indymedia.org/imc-dc-editorial/2003-November/005919.html . For context, I would add that these are not "just" emails, they are emails on a secure list-serv made for discussing and making editorial decisions among the D.C. Indymedia collective. | |||
| :* A contribution to the D.C. Indymedia open newswire by Chuck Munson, where he complains about the I.P. ban: http://dc.indymedia.org/newswire/display/84165/index.php | |||
| :I will also note that all of the above materials were/are dated to November 2003 - so they're all discussing the same ban. | |||
| :Documentation of Chuck Munson being banned from Web4lib list-serv: | |||
| :* This article from Library Journal goes into it: http://www.libraryjournal.com/article/CA158570.html | |||
| :* Chuck talks about it on his blog: http://chuck.mahost.org/weblog/?p=1284 | |||
| :Documentation of Chuck Munson being I.P. banned by Misplaced Pages: | |||
| :* For 3RR -- http://en.wikipedia.org/Wikipedia:Administrators%27_noticeboard/IncidentArchive38#User:Chuck0 | |||
| :If you will investigate the diff file, I made no claims as to whether these bans were correct or incorrect -- just that Chuck's a controversial figure in his work, especially online. No pronouncements as to whether Chuck was in the right or in the wrong. The additions were as NPOV as possible. | |||
| :Further, these additions were entirely relevant. Claims are made as to Chuck Munson's importance to the Indymedia movement, and to the internet. If this is considered relevant, then his conduct in those fields is relevant as well. | |||
| :I will add further: edits Chuck has made himself (claiming to have been a crucial member of D.C. Indymedia, being behind its co-op plan, etc., as well as his deletion of information on his I.P. ban) were put into dispute here by "from DC". I added the "disputed" tag because of this. The simple application of the "disputed" tag, in a good faith effort to have these things cleared up on the Talk Page rather than by edit war on the article, was almost immediately reverted by Chuck -- who didn't even bother to make a good faith explanation of his side of that dispute, before going into personal attacks. --] 17:50, 26 October 2006 (UTC) | |||
| ::Once again, ] is engaged in personal attacks against me on behalf of In the Stacks. ] didn't have a problem with the article about me until yesterday. Go read the history file. He decided to attack me here yesterday on behalf of In the Stacks, because that user was losing his campaign to keep links from being added to the entries about the ISO, RCP and WCW. ] is violating a policy that he cited here, ]. Or is that a Misplaced Pages philosophy? In any case, there hasn't been any edit activity on this article for a month preceding yesterday. The last period of edits and reverts involved user In the Stacks making the same arguments here that Daniel is making. Daniel is engaged in proxy personal attacks on behalf of user In the Stacks. Again, ]. | |||
| :: I'm really tired of how the looking glass world of Misplaced Pages claims that is has policies against the use of Misplaced Pages to conduct personal attacks, yet allows selective vendettas. At this point, I'd like for ] and user In the Stacks to cease and desist from any further attacks on me on this talk page or any other talk page. I'm willing to talk about whether or not links should be added to the RCP, ISO, and WCW pages, but the these users have to stop their online harassment of me and my participation in Misplaced Pages. My next step at this point will be to ask for third party conflict resolution from Misplaced Pages volunteers. ] 18:09, 26 October 2006 (UTC) | |||
| :::Other than the snide opening remark, which I have already removed, and the reference to a "tirade", which I have removed with this edit, Daniel's comments here seem fairly reasonable. Let's all try to forget past attacks, resist attempts to sneak snide remarks into otherwise civil discussion, and wipe the slate clean so we can make progress. ] 18:19, 26 October 2006 (UTC) | |||
| ::::No, Daniel's remarks are not reasonable. Any reasonable person can see that Daniel is attacking me as a proxy for user In the Stacks. I'm not going to forget past attacks as I am a real person whose reputation is being attacked here! I am not going to stand for any efforts to make it seem like this is just a regular discusion over edits to a web page. The context of Daniel's attacks are important here. He is acting as a proxy for somebody who has been stalking me on the Internet for more than three years. Daniel took the dispute over the ISO/WCW/RCP edits and made it personal. ] 18:27, 26 October 2006 (UTC) | |||
| :::::Whatever this ISO/WCW/RCP dispute is, ] requires that I treat this issue as a sincere attempt to place relevant information in the article and not assume that it is motivated by a desire to attack you. A news article in ''LJ'' certainly is enough reason to at least discuss potentially including these events. While you may feel that discussing these past events is a personal attack, calling someone names definately is a personal attack and I have removed those comments. Please don't make such remarks again. ] 18:42, 26 October 2006 (UTC) | |||
| ::::I understand your point, but as they say, you can't be neutral on a moving train. The challenge to the information in this article is not an honest, neutral attempt to improve the article. The context of the ISO/WSW/RCP dispute is of relevance here, if Daniel's points are being considered. He is simply not a neutral Wikipedian interested in improving this article. He has posted charges here which contain misinformation that he has gotten from user In the Stacks. That user has engaged in online defamation and harassment against me on various Internet sites for '''several years.'' This is not about the article about me. ] 18:57, 26 October 2006 (UTC) | |||
| ::My intial opinions - more indepth comments to follow if necessary. The Web4Lib listserv ban seems to meet the bar for inclusion, as it was deemed important enough to be mentioned in ''LJ'' and Munson's blog provides a source for his perspective. The Misplaced Pages "ban" - which was merely a temporary 3RR block of 24 hours - should absolutely not be mentioned at all as it a routine and unimportant violation that happens to probably dozens of people a day and doesn't meet any sort of standard for an encyclopedic noteworthiness. | |||
| :Let's please forget about the edit war over the dispute tag as that isn't important to the underlying issues of content. ] 18:03, 26 October 2006 (UTC) | |||
| :: First of all, Web4lib is an ''e-mail list'', not a ''listserv.'' The latter term is a variety of mailing list software, not the generic description of the technology. ] is dredging up this stuff about the Web4lib list because he is engaged in libelous attacks against my character and reputation. This has nothing to do with the dispute over the editing of the WCW, RCP, and ISO pages. Remember, this dispute is why we are here. The Web4lib banning did happen, in fact, several years before Misplaced Pages even existed. It was a minor incident in my professonal library career and isn't noteworthy enough to be mentioned in my article. If it were mentioned, I would insist that more content be added about my library activism, including the context behind the banning, which involved my prominent activism against library filtering. That dispute got so heated that the other side enlisted Dr. Laura's support. She attacked one of my projects and then attacked the American Library Association on several of her programs. It's an interesting story, but not noteworthy for this article entry. As for Daniel's other charges, he is just recycling rumors and other crap that In the Stacks has told him. Neither of these people were involved in any of the groups. And if you look at the history file for my entry, you will see that In the Stacks has thrown this mud at me several months ago. ] 18:21, 26 October 2006 (UTC) | |||
| :::This certainly is a compelling point, that even though it was covered by ''LJ'', it was a relatively minor incident and perhaps should be excluded on that basis. If you were personally attacked by Dr. Laura and the flying monkey right, then perhaps we should include coverage of that incident and place the ban in a larger context. ] 18:42, 26 October 2006 (UTC) | |||
| ::::Well, I have nothing to hide about my activism in the library world. I had forgotten about the Library Journal piece, which I remember now as being one of those paragraph pieces in their news briefs section. The context of my banning is pretty important, because it involved a long-running war between librarians and proponents of liberary censorware. The other side included a librarian named David Burt, who ran a pro-filtering website and who enlisted Dr. Laura. He eventually left his librarian job and took a job with a censorware company. People on the Web4lib list were tired of the dispute, but the banning of both David and myself really marked an abdication of the library community when it came to fighting censorship. ] 18:51, 26 October 2006 (UTC) | |||
| :''The Misplaced Pages "ban" - which was merely a temporary 3RR block of 24 hours - should absolutely not be mentioned at all as it a routine and unimportant violation that happens to probably dozens of people a day and doesn't meet any sort of standard for an encyclopedic noteworthiness.'' | |||
| ::'''Exactly!''' Thanks for pointing this out, which just goes to show that Daniel is just digging up mud as grist for his personal attacks. I was temporarily banned by Misplaced Pages because of the 3RR rule. I wasn't that familiar with Misplaced Pages policies at the time and I was frustrated with somebody who was, once again, using my article to attack me. At this point I understand Misplaced Pages policies much better and could have simply cited the policy about not using Misplaced Pages as a battleground. The 3RR rule is a good idea, but in my case the content involved inaccurate rumors being posted about me. If I could do that incident over again, I would have simply waited for another editor to fix the edit, or I could have asked other editors to intervene. ] 18:33, 26 October 2006 (UTC) | |||
| I recommend that folks look at the history of the entries on the ISO, RCP and World Can't Wait for today. User In the Stacks just edited all three pages to remove links that he has been removing for weeks. This is the meat of this dispute and why we are here. He has Daniel attacking me here so he can continue his censorship of those entries. ] 18:46, 26 October 2006 (UTC) | |||
| ::Munson, really, how many times do I have to say this: your idea that there exists some conspiracy against you that is recruiting is your own fevered imagination. Strike that. Maybe it's a presumption based on your own recruitment by ] into an edit war. | |||
| ::By the way, physician heal thyself! Bother to check the history for RCP, you'd see that I have not edited RCP in months. The last time I did so, I bothered ''including'' the link you keep on whining about. Since then I did my own investigation, and decided that your conduct here and elsewhere has been less than good-faith, and the best thing to do is to no longer carry your water for you. --] 18:20, 28 October 2006 (UTC) | |||
| == A note to all participants == | |||
| Please remember that this is the talk page for ''this particular article''. It is not a place to rehash grievances regarding behavior in other articles or offsite. If there is or has been a problem with another article, please discuss that article on the talk page for that particular article. If there is or has been a problem with a user's behavior elsewhere on Misplaced Pages, there are other forums for you to address your grievances, and I will assist you with that if necessary. This page is not that forum. Thank you. ] 18:47, 26 October 2006 (UTC) | |||
| == related discussion of Munson editing entry on himself == | |||
| What about Munson's call to "boycott" Misplaced Pages? He's erased it from his blog, but there's some discussion of it in a previous round of Munson-related Wikiwars... also related to a separate instance of Munson editing the entry on him. http://en.wikipedia.org/Wikipedia:WikiProject_Deletion_sorting/Politics_and_law/Closed#Chuck_Munson | |||
| ] | |||
| ::That may be of interest to editors, but we don't use Misplaced Pages as a source. We wouldn't include that kind of info in an article. -] 02:09, 28 October 2006 (UTC) | |||
| == Another county heard from == | |||
| FWIW, the material that strikes me as being about a petty squabble that is not of any encyclopedic significance. - ] | ] 01:48, 30 October 2006 (UTC) | |||
| ::If Chuck's role on Indymedia and other websites is considered of encyclopedic significance, then his actions there are worth examination. --] 16:40, 30 October 2006 (UTC) | |||
| :::Our rule of thumb for notability is coverage by reliable sources. It doesn't appear that anyone has reported on his actions there. -] 19:11, 30 October 2006 (UTC) | |||
| ::Reliable sources... like Chuck himself? Like the D.C. IMC who had to sift through a bunch of emails from Chuck's friends asking why he was banned? | |||
| ::Please check the above list I've compiled for all the instances in which Chuck has admitted to being banned, tossed or told to check his conduct online. In each case I've bothered to go as close to primary sources as possible. That Chuck doesn't want them up isn't a good enough excuse for excluding them, especially since this is essentially trying to put toothpaste back into a tube. The truth is out there... --] 22:05, 30 October 2006 (UTC) | |||
| :::Please see ]. We generally give a great deal of deference (too much perhaps) to living people when it comes to their biography articles. They are, of course, not the final word, but their wishes should be heard, though not necessarily adhered to. Munson's wish to exclude something does not mean that it automatically should be excluded, but there must be a compelling reason to include the information - you must have reliable sources and show that the information is significant enough to be included. So far there isn't a clear cut case for inclusion for all this material, and some of it, like the 3RR block, should obviously be excluded. | |||
| :::I'm going to unlock the article now. I ask that the parties please continue to use the talk page in a civil manner and not rush to make their edits and restart the edit war. ] 01:02, 31 October 2006 (UTC) | |||
| ==Employee of the state== | |||
| I went ahead an noted that he is employed by the state as a librarian. <small>—The preceding ] comment was added by ] (] • ]) 15:45, 25 December 2006 (UTC).</small><!-- HagermanBot Auto-Unsigned --> | |||
| Gamaliel why did you remove that addition to the article? | |||
| :I removed your commentary again. This is not the place for a discussion regarding your thoughts about the "credibility" of the subject of the article. Regarding your addition, I removed it because it was unsourced and obviously motivated by your opinons regarding his credibility. If you wish to add information regarding his employment, it must be specific (i.e., name the library, don't just say "the state") and from a credible source. Thank you. ] 17:10, 25 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| ::It's just that it's significant that someone who says he is an anarchist receives his paycheck from the state. He says he works for state university libraries. <small>—The preceding ] comment was added by ] (] • ]){{#if:{{{2|}}}| {{{2}}}|}}.</small><!-- Template:Unsigned --> | |||
| ::Your Honor is using Misplaced Pages to harass me with made-up crap. I haven't worked for a university library in over ten years. This nonsense shows why edits from anoanymous, unregistered users should be taken with a grain of salt. ] 22:43, 25 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| :::What do you mean I'm unregistered? I'm just as registered as you are. Anyway, while you're here, who is your employer now? Are you being paid with tax dollars? <small>—The preceding ] comment was added by ] (] • ]){{#if:{{{2|}}}| {{{2}}}|}}.</small><!-- Template:Unsigned --> | |||
| ::::The fact that you are asking such a question means that you are not interested in being a constructive Wikipedian. What Wikipedians do for a living and who they get paid by is irrelevant to Misplaced Pages. ] 23:01, 25 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| :::::It's very relevant. This article is about you. What you do for a living is very important so we can get a sense of who you are. If you're living off the state, that would be very interesting.<small>—The preceding ] comment was added by ] (] • ]){{#if:{{{2|}}}| {{{2}}}|}}.</small><!-- Template:Unsigned --> | |||
| ::::No, it's only interesting to crackpots such as yourself. ] 23:08, 25 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| :::::Well, at least we know you're a person that makes personal attacks. <small>—The preceding ] comment was added by ] (] • ]){{#if:{{{2|}}}| {{{2}}}|}}.</small><!-- Template:Unsigned --> | |||
| ::::::Your honor, I notice that you have been repeatedly inserting ] into ], even though Rothbard was also "an employee of the state". That appears to be inconsistent with your editing here and makes it appear that you are not editing neutrally. Can you explain the difference? -] · ] · 00:14, 26 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| :::::::If Rothbard claimed he was an anarchist while being an employee of the state, that would be relevant as well. I'm not aware of Rothbard being funded through taxes. But if you have such information then please add it to the Rothbard article. If it is true that Rothbard was supported by tax dollars then it would cast his anarchism into doubt, in my opinion. But he should still not be removed because the sources say he was an anarchist. What matters on Misplaced Pages is what the sources say. We are not free to push our own personal POV in articles. Chuck Munson pushes his personal POV in Misplaced Pages articles. He is removing the section on Rothbard in the aforementioned article because he personally disagrees that Rothbard was an anarchist. | |||
| ::::::::Rothbard was a professor at a state university. Rothbard is not usually called an "anarchist", but rather an anarcho-capitalist which is a different thing. Perhaps that kind of anarchist is allowed to take tax dollars for their salary, or to subsidize their foundations with tax deductions. In any case, let's stick with summarizing reliable sources using the neutral point of view. Let's avoid the kind of vrevert wars that are going on at ]. -] · ] · 02:42, 26 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::::::Wrong. Anarcho-capitalist is simply short for anarchist capitalist or capitalist anarchist. Just as anarcho-communists are supposed to be anarchists, anarcho-capitalists are supposed to be anarchists. There are various schools of anarchism. "Anarcho" doesn't mean not anarchist. And yes let's stick with reliable sources. That's what I've been saying. The sources in that article explicitly say that Rothbard is an "individualist anarchist." Anarcho-capitalism is one of several individualist forms of anarchism. | |||
| It's pretty clear to me that user "Your Honor" is a sockpuppet for either a person who doesn't like me or my politics, or who is part of the anarcho-capitalist groups trying to use Misplaced Pages to establish original research normalizing "anarcho-capitalism" as part of anarchism. ] 04:46, 26 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| Damn, I guess I'm not an anarchist anymore since I tutor immigrants at a ''public'' college and get my paycheck from said public college. Guess I have to start going to a private school to get paid. This is ridiculous. As he well knows, I'm not a huge fan of Chuck, but I'm getting sick of all these attacks on him here for really stupid things. Even In the Stacks is reverting your edits. ]] 04:49, 26 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| ==Need source saying he is an anarchist== | |||
| Just because someone calls themself an "anarchist" it doesn't mean they are recognized by one in the scholarly community. So please don't remove the request for citation. If there are no sources, then the most we can do is say he's a "self-described" anarchist. | |||
| :You're walking a thin line (in fact, you've already fallen off). This is ridiculous. ]] 04:46, 26 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| ::No it is not ridiculous. If Rothbard is held to such a high standard of requiring sources to prove that he's an anarchist (and then they're not accepted by social anarchists here when they are provided), then there needs to be some sources that say this guy is an anarchist. So far all I've seen is him referring to himself as one. I personally don't consider him an anarchist. | |||
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Media references and published works
If anybody is really, really curious, they can find a more comprehensive list of my press clippings and a list of where I've been published at my blog Another Blog Is Possible. The blog also has an About Me page and a draft overview of why I identify as an anarchist.
Quote from Critical Studies in Media Communication
Okay, what's the scoop on the use of this article? From the edit summary of the edit at 19:31, we are supposed to learn that this individual "can only be" Munson. At best, this is original research; it might also be unverifiable. thanks... Nomoskedasticity (talk) 19:37, 9 March 2008 (UTC)
- Check almost any other external link on the page; Munson runs Infoshop.org. The ref isn't even necessary to establish he is an anarchist, and can be easily replaced, but it does verify info about Munson and it is a useful piece for readers. скоморохъ 19:43, 9 March 2008 (UTC)
- But do you disagree that the use of the reference in this way constitutes original research? Nomoskedasticity (talk) 19:48, 9 March 2008 (UTC)
- I think this is a little abusive of the OR tag. When something as benign as this is totally obvious, please ignore all rules. Murderbike (talk) 19:54, 9 March 2008 (UTC)
- But do you disagree that the use of the reference in this way constitutes original research? Nomoskedasticity (talk) 19:48, 9 March 2008 (UTC)
- What you might be thinking of is WP:SYN. And no, I agree with Murderbike; it's clear as day and uncontroversial that Munson is a) an anarchist b) the individual behind Infoshop.org and c) the person referred to in that quote. You can challenge it if you like, but I don't exactly see why anyone would want to. Regards, скоморохъ 19:57, 9 March 2008 (UTC)
- Yes, of course, synthesis. The reason to object to it is that it makes it more difficult to argue in other cases where something isn't as benign; it doesn't strike me as a good precedent. As for whether or not he's an anarchist, I have no idea - never heard of him before. I just think the source doesn't do the work claimed for it here. Why do you consider it necessary to use it? Are there no other sources that will do? thanks, Nomoskedasticity (talk) 20:11, 9 March 2008 (UTC)
- There's no worry about precedent - Misplaced Pages is not a bureaucracy. If you look to the first discussion on this page, you will see that Munson himself has listed a number of resources, including Why I am an anarchist for editors use. We don't have to use this specific source here, I just think it would be a shame to remove it altogether as it has a lot of informative material, is a secondary source, and is a reliable scholarly source, unlike much info on Munson online. I'll move it somewhere else. Regards, скоморохъ 20:17, 9 March 2008 (UTC)
- Thanks. I've also just noticed that the quote refers to someone in DC, but in the intro to the page on Munson here it says that he is in Kansas. (If only it were true that "Misplaced Pages is not a bureaucracy"!! People argue in terms of precedent all the time here, and I imagine that's inevitable.) Nomoskedasticity (talk) 20:23, 9 March 2008 (UTC)
- Yeah, Munson's location differed at the respective timesof writing - he did spend some time in DC. It helps in general to keep a firm grasp of Ignore all rules in mind, I think. We wouldn't want to have to find sources for the claim that Tony Blair is expressly not a Martian, for example. Hope the new version of the article is more to your liking. Regards, скоморохъ 20:32, 9 March 2008 (UTC)
- My take is that this citation was added by somebody to shut up the idiot who was questioning anything and everything about the entry on me. They had a political axe to grind and they took out their problems with me by arguing that I wasn't an anarchist. This "citation trolling", for want of a better term, is an annoying abuse of Misplaced Pages. It's well-established that I'm an anarchist. The New York Times even published a feature on me that noted that I am an anarchist. People ought to read that article on Slashdot today about the fight between "inclusionists" and "deletionists" across Misplaced Pages. What this person was doing is similar to the deletionist philosophy. This cited article may be a bit off topic, but I think whoever added it was making a good faith effort to provide citations to shut up the troll. Chuck0 (talk) 04:39, 11 March 2008 (UTC)
New changes
Given that I am an active Wikipedian, people really ought to ask me before they make additions and changes to this entry. This entry was way too long before the recent changes and now some of the changes reflect the agenda of Misplaced Pages critics. The sentence about my anarchist political beliefs, with the citation to my blog article, is a nice addition, but the addition of words about anarcho-capitalism reflect the priorities of other Misplaced Pages editors, not any of my priorities as an anarchist. I removed the sentence about my early years, as my religious background is irrelevant and the part about Kansas City, Kansas is completely wrong. I grew up in south Kansas City, in both Missouri and Kansas. Kansas City, Kansas is west of KCMO. Look it up on the map. People outside of KC get that wrong all the time.
The sentence about my involvement in anti-filtering campaigns is also inaccurate. It is true that a briefly ran an anti-filtering website, a fact that is less interesting than my activism against pro-filtering librarians and activists. The sentence falsely implies that the Anarchist Librarians Web was short-lived--in fact, it is still online and has been online for 10 years. I was a co-founder of the "anarchist librarians movement" which got started 10 years ago and currently has an active e-mail list of over 300 people. Chuck0 (talk) 15:39, 13 March 2008 (UTC)
- I am definitively an "outsider" to this article/topic, and so I have no investment here other than very general Misplaced Pages principles and policies. I would simply like to observe that, while it is reasonable for a living person as a "subject" to comment on the article and even to edit in particular ways, BLP (and Misplaced Pages more generally) does not give a privileged position to the "subject" of an article when it comes to editing. It is simply untrue that the subject must be consulted prior to editing, and decisions about what is "relevant" are a matter of debate and consensus. Nomoskedasticity (talk) 16:07, 13 March 2008 (UTC)
- Chuck didn't say that you "must" consult him, just that we "ought" to, which makes a heck of a lot of sense. Murderbike (talk) 16:36, 13 March 2008 (UTC)
- Right. Perhaps I should have bolded ought to underscore that I wasn't demanding that I be consulted. My point was that I'm here and can answer questions and provide citations. Just trying to be helpful. Chuck0 (talk) 03:53, 14 March 2008 (UTC)
Yo, thanks for responding (and not reverting), Chuck. I was motivated to start expanding this article after I noticed your userpage was a better resource on the subject than our article; the sources are scant and I had to fill in the gaps a little in places. So apologies for the error with regard to the Anarchist Librarians Web; the Kansas City info I took from the source. If you want a better picture of your filtering activism, just point us to a source with the info and we will add it in. As for the anarchist without adjectives/anarcho-capitalism reference, I thought it gave the reader a good idea of what kind of anarchist you are. I reworded the sentence to make it less leading, I hope the new version is an improvement.
As regards asking you before making changes to this article, the proposition is of course ridiculous; this is a 💕 which anyone can edit and no-one owns any article. If you intend on monitoring this page regularly, it is probably a good idea to give you a heads-up so that easily-rebutted info such as that on Kansas City can be prevented from going in. I'm still not happy with the state of the article; it relies far too heavily on the subject as a source, is a scattered and patchy biography and has no criticism of someone who is no stranger to ideological/movementarian conflict. For my part, if I continue to try and expand the article (and all articles should be expanded with appropriate content, WP:SIZE permitting) I'll keep in mind your willingness to help keep the facts in check. It's worth remembering though, that your status as a notable Wikipedian affords you no authority here. Regards, скоморохъ 00:46, 14 March 2008 (UTC)
- Hey Chuck0, it's me, earthworm. I'm not going to edit the article because I know you, but I do echo Murderbike's sentiment that it makes an awful lot of sense to run something by the wold's foremost expert on a subject (which I would think Chuck0 would be on the subject of himself) for accuracy, if we happen to have him on hand. But I don't think anyone was implying any ownership of the article :-) delldot on a public computer talk 02:06, 14 March 2008 (UTC)
- It's not a big deal, but I'm active on Misplaced Pages, even if most of that activity means that I'm reading articles and watching pages. Yes, this biography represents a patchwork of edits over the years. That's what Misplaced Pages produces. I think that the article is too long by current Misplaced Pages standards, even though I'm an "inclusionist" who thinks that articles should be longer, rather than shorter. This entry was started several years ago, back in the "Wild West" days of Misplaced Pages. This article was started (not by me) back when most articles didn't have citations and editors were throwing in everything save the kitchen sink.
- Those of you who know me, or are long time editors, know that this entry has been frequently vandalized, both by people who dislike my politics and several crazies out there who thought they could use Misplaced Pages to facilitate their attacks. I was active in reverting many of those attacks, until Misplaced Pages developed a more reliable process of preventing the use of biography articles to attack people. I'm glad that things have settle down. I've also added material to this article back in 2006, just to provide more information about myself.
- I appreciate that скоморохъ has been using material from my blog to add citations. Part of the reason why I added that material to my blog was because some editors here were questioning every single fact about me in this entry. The number of "citations needed" that have been added to this article have been excessive, but it's good to see that more citations have been added.
- I disagree with the suggestion that this entry needs more critical things about me. Adding that material would constitute a personal attack and would fall afoul of current Misplaced Pages guidelines about biographies and organizations. If I can't add critical links to organizational pages, then people shouldn't be using this entry to attack my reputation. I will end here by reiterating that almost all of the personal attacks that have been directed at me come from crazies and people who nitpick my politics. I'm actually not that controversial. I state my opinions like everybody else. Chuck0 (talk) 03:53, 14 March 2008 (UTC)
- In the absence of evidence to the contrary, I'm more than willing to take your word for it. Thanks for having an even-handed attitude towards the matter. скоморохъ 00:31, 16 March 2008 (UTC)
Anarchism without adjectives
This statement is absurd: "Munson identifies as an anarchist without adjectives, describing himself as "an anarchist who is open-minded about anarchist ideas", and rejects the notion that anarcho-capitalism is a form of anarchism, citing its lack of opposition to "the hierarchical authoritarian capitalist workplace." If that's the case, then he's not an anarchist without adjectives. If a person is an anarchist without adjectives, that means he doesn't care what the proposed system is like, hierarchical auhotarian or not, as long as no one is forced to join that system. That's what anarchism without adjectives is. Voltairine de Cleyre described this way: "There is nothing un-Anarchistic about any of until the element of compulsion enters and obliges unwilling persons to remain in a community whose economic arrangements they do not agree to. (When I say 'do not agree to' I do not mean that they have a mere distaste for...I mean serious differences which in their opinion threaten their essential liberties...)...Therefore I say that each group of persons acting socially in freedom may choose any of the proposed systems, and be just as thorough-going Anarchists as those who select another." Claiming someone an anarchist without adjectives while saying he claims that anarcho-capitalism is not a form of anarchism is incoherent. That defies the meaning of the term. Operation Spooner (talk) 04:54, 7 April 2008 (UTC)
- I call Zaxlebax. We have two claims:
- 1. Anarchism without adjectives is inclusive of, and only inclusive of, all types of anarchism
- 2. Anarcho-capitalism is a type of anarchism
- Munson holds, perfectly consistently, the first claim while denying the second. You hold both claims. The only issue here is whether the second claim is true. To a left anarchist, "anarcho-capitalism" is as coherent as "anarcho-statism" or "dry wetness". There is no logical error, incoherence or absurdity afoot in Munson's point of view, you are just defining your terms differently. Nothing to see here. Skomorokh 05:02, 7 April 2008 (UTC)
- No, that misses the point of anarchism without adjectives. Read what Cleyre said. "There is nothing unarchistic about.." If someone claims that a proposed "anarchist" system whose adherents don't say they will force anyone into their society is unarchistic, then he's not an anarchist without adjectives. What gave rise to anarchism without adjective is people claiming that each other's systems weren't genuine anarchism. So there is no way possible that he can be an anarchist without adjectives, as it's normally understood, that I can see. Operation Spooner (talk) 05:08, 7 April 2008 (UTC)
- All it shows is that de Cleyre, Munson and Woodward have different conceptions of what AWA is. Skomorokh 05:16, 7 April 2008 (UTC)
- Or Munson is using the term without grasping the traditional meaning of the term. But of course no one says one has to be traditional to be an anarchist. Or do they? Operation Spooner (talk) 05:19, 7 April 2008 (UTC)
- If they did, your anarcho-capitalists would be in trouble ;) Nah, the way I see it the term just means "I recognize more than one form of anarchism, but the differences between forms are not important to me." Skomorokh 05:25, 7 April 2008 (UTC)
- Or Munson is using the term without grasping the traditional meaning of the term. But of course no one says one has to be traditional to be an anarchist. Or do they? Operation Spooner (talk) 05:19, 7 April 2008 (UTC)
- All it shows is that de Cleyre, Munson and Woodward have different conceptions of what AWA is. Skomorokh 05:16, 7 April 2008 (UTC)
- Just so we're clear, Anarcho-Capitalism isn't a species of Anarchism under *any* sane definition. Its a very confused and ahistorical pair of words to jam together. Remember, Anarchism is a political tradition whos core claim precludes any collaboration or affinity with Capitalists or others who seek to oppress their fellow human. Obviously. Its not a mere dictionary definition. Duckmonster (talk) 08:05, 5 October 2022 (UTC)
On another note, is this guy even notable enough for an article? Recently the Per Bylund article was deleted because he wasn't notable enough, and he doesn't seem to be any more notable than that guy. Operation Spooner (talk) 05:03, 7 April 2008 (UTC)
- Two AfD's seemed to think so: first, second. In my opinion, being interviewed by the NYT and WashPo make someone notable enough. Bylund wouldn't get that coverage in a million years. Skomorokh 05:18, 7 April 2008 (UTC)
- I don't see what that makes someone notable enough for an article. My father for example, has been interviewed by NYT, WSJ, and other newspapers, more than Munson has, but I don't think that makes him notable enough for an article. People are interviewed by newspapers all the time. I don't see how someone getting 15 minutes of fame in a newspaper article make someone notable enough for an encyclopedia article. Operation Spooner (talk)
- NYT etc are reliable sources. On Misplaced Pages, if something has had non-trivial coverage (i.e. more than a passing mention) in multiple reliable sources, that means they are notable enough for an article. Skomorokh
- I don't see what that makes someone notable enough for an article. My father for example, has been interviewed by NYT, WSJ, and other newspapers, more than Munson has, but I don't think that makes him notable enough for an article. People are interviewed by newspapers all the time. I don't see how someone getting 15 minutes of fame in a newspaper article make someone notable enough for an encyclopedia article. Operation Spooner (talk)
Jesus Christ! Do you guys have anything better to do than to argue about this arcane changes to an entry? This entry about little ole me is already too long, compared to most Misplaced Pages biographical entries. It's even stranger to read a section about my "thought" that emphasizes things that are pretty minor in terms of what I've written over the years. The stuff here about what I think about anarcho-capitalism is taken out of context. The recent changes consitute original research by a person who is simply using this entry to express their personal opinions about me.
At least somebody pointed out that this entry has survived two notability votes. I guess people have documented that I am indeed "notable" according to Misplaced Pages standards. I'm just wondering where the trophy is. Spooner should understand that several major newspapers have profiled me as a notable anarchist. That's different than being interviewed--I've been interviewed by a variety of media outlets. Don't see why any of this is relevant. The whol point of Misplaced Pages is to create a democratic encyclopedia. What's the point of Misplaced Pages if it isn't going to cover notable people in their fields?
It's also amusing to find out that I don't qualify as a de Cleyrist. I know what an anarchist without adjectives is. Do you really think that I've been an anarchist for more than 20 years and don't understand the concept? The whole point of anarchism without adjectives is that sectarian labeling within anarchism just isn't that important. That doesn't mean that an anarchist without adjectives doesn't hold some opinions about where the limits of anarchism lie. An anarchist without adjectives is usually anti-sectarian, but obviously there are some things that aren't anarchism. Chuck0 (talk) 07:01, 8 April 2008 (UTC)
- "Jesus Christ! Do you guys have anything better to do than to argue about this arcane changes to an entry?" No, it gives us intense pleasure to debate the minutiae of some obscure policy on a website that is the anal-retentive's paradise; it is where the socially inadequate, particular-to-the-point-of-autism, power-hungry nerds get revenge on the world after a lifetime of persecution by getting to define The Truth. Go have a beer or talk to females or something, let us have our fun. ;) Skomorokh 14:24, 8 April 2008 (UTC)
- Funny. Chuck0 (talk) 16:38, 8 April 2008 (UTC)
- You're not an anarchist without adjectives. You're just twisting the meaning of the term. Operation Spooner (talk) 05:13, 9 April 2008 (UTC)
- You are entitled to your opinion, but I know what my politics are. I've identified as an anarchist without adjectives since the 1980s. I know what it means. You don't. I know that you are annoyed with things I've said about anarcho-capitalism, but you should know that I've mellowed a bunch on that topic in the past year. This isn't the place to pick arguments with me or otherwise engage in discussions. Chuck0 (talk) 03:44, 10 April 2008 (UTC)
"Munson identifies as an anarchist without adjectives, describing himself as "an anarchist who is open-minded about anarchist ideas", and rejects the notion that anarcho-capitalism is a form of anarchism, citing its lack of opposition to "the hierarchical authoritarian capitalist workplace."
If there is a contradiction here, it's not important. What's important is that the sentence is an accurate statement of the subject's beliefs. Arguing about possible flaws in his reasoning does not seem germane to an encyclopedia article, unless we can source them from outside. Silasthecat (talk) 23:47, 9 September 2008 (UTC)
Remove article
I'd like to get this article removed from Misplaced Pages as the subject of this article. Can anybody advise? Do I have to nominate it again for non-notability? I am not a public figure and this biographical article is way longer than articles about famous people. Chuck0 (talk) 16:13, 21 October 2009 (UTC)
- We don't delete articles on subject request, and articles that have been kept at deletion discussions (as this one has twice) cannot be deleted except through another deletion discussion (AfD). That said, the decisions to keep in previous discussions were marginal, norms have changed somewhat since, and editors tend to be sympathetic to subject requests, so a deletion proposal would have a fighting chance. If you like I can nominate it on your behalf. An alternative would be to quietly redirect it to Infoshop.org or Alternative Media Project, which would be fine as long as no-one objected. Skomorokh, barbarian 16:18, 21 October 2009 (UTC)
- I don't participate in Misplaced Pages any more, so I don't know the current norms or policies. I can live with this article staying here, but only if several things are removed. The main thing I will insist on being removed is the part about where I live. That provides no useful information to this entry and it's a violation of my privacy. I also want the link removed to my personal blog. I think these are reasonable requests. Chuck0 (talk) 00:09, 22 October 2009 (UTC)
- Actually, I'd also like removed the following: 1) The sentence about my academic background. Most biographical entries on Misplaced Pages don't include similar information and this is irrelevant to this entry; 2) the sentence about me working at the University Of Maryland. This entry is already too long for a biography of a non-notable subject, so I think these deletions will actually improve this article. Chuck0 (talk) 00:12, 22 October 2009 (UTC)
- It's within discretionary range, so no objections from me. Are there any remaining issues with the article? Skomorokh, barbarian 21:12, 7 November 2009 (UTC)
- Actually, I'd also like removed the following: 1) The sentence about my academic background. Most biographical entries on Misplaced Pages don't include similar information and this is irrelevant to this entry; 2) the sentence about me working at the University Of Maryland. This entry is already too long for a biography of a non-notable subject, so I think these deletions will actually improve this article. Chuck0 (talk) 00:12, 22 October 2009 (UTC)
- I don't participate in Misplaced Pages any more, so I don't know the current norms or policies. I can live with this article staying here, but only if several things are removed. The main thing I will insist on being removed is the part about where I live. That provides no useful information to this entry and it's a violation of my privacy. I also want the link removed to my personal blog. I think these are reasonable requests. Chuck0 (talk) 00:09, 22 October 2009 (UTC)
Can somebody delete the redirect? If the subject is non-notable, there shouldn't be a re-direct either. Chuck0 (talk) 00:55, 4 November 2010 (UTC)
- Couldn't agree more, to be quite honest. -- Kharay1977 01:35, 7 November 2010 (UTC)
Remove anarchist stuff?
Can all, or some of the anarchist stuff, be removed from this entry, as I no longer identify myself as an anarchist? The "anarchism" and "anarchist without adjectives" boxes should at least be removed. Chuck0 (talk) 22:26, 24 January 2010 (UTC)
- If we are going to go that route then there is not much point in retaining the article; as such, I've redirected it to Infoshop.org. Skomorokh 22:37, 24 January 2010 (UTC)
- Why would you do that? Infoshop.org is not me. It's a collective project. Chuck0 (talk) 05:33, 25 January 2010 (UTC)