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== ''Incestualist'' and ''Incestophile'' ==

My recent revert was cut off due to some kind of technical problem so the edit summary is probably odd. What I was trying to say is that the sources for ''Incestualist'' and ''Incestophile'' appear to not be very strong. They do not provide any proof these are common, accepted terms. Furthermore,, Wible deliberately uses it in a ''sarcastic'' way in making an argument for acceptance of homosexuality.] (]) 20:31, 29 July 2015 (UTC)
:: Are those terms correctly formed? I guess we could include incestophobia as well. That would be someone that is opposed to incest. --] (]) 12:55, 6 October 2016 (UTC)
:::I can't really say if they're are correctly formed as I lack the needed knowledge of English linguistics, though I have noticed that the internet has created a variety of terribly mangled terms as well as corruption of existing words true meanings. However, most important is that these all appear to be made-up terms used by a handful of authors in a joking sort of way. I could not find any good scientific or reliable "serious" usage of any of them, including the one you suggested.] (]) 14:11, 6 October 2016 (UTC)

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== Professor Steve Jones material and ] ==

As seen and , I twice reverted content that ] . With that second revert, you can see that Swingoswingo so that it's not focused on the professor. For that second edit, I only reverted the "it is said to endanger the health of future generation" part. I reverted both times due to the fact that commentary from a lone professor in a section that is specifically about religious views is ]. Not only was the original content not speaking of any religious view, it was simply stating that it is common in the Muslim world for men to marry their nieces and cousins and that it endangers the health of future generations. Health with regard to incest is , with better/more appropriate sources. It's also covered in the lead. Readers know that incest can lead to genetic problems. We don't need the inclusion of professor Steve Jones stating that it endangers the health of future generations. Furthermore, that health commentary is vague.

The ] account Professor Steve Jones's name; I'm sure he did this per ].

I object to all versions. Thoughts? This is something that may need to be taken to the ]. I state this noticeboard because WP:Undue weight is an aspect of WP:Neutral and there is no WP:Undue weight noticeboard. ] (]) 21:38, 4 August 2017 (UTC)
:I added the name as I believed that is was not a unanimously held opinion as it claims that Muslims marry nieces but above it says this is forbidden. Intext attribution should be used in this case. ] (]) 22:30, 4 August 2017 (UTC)

::In-text attribution is not what I object to; above, I was indicating that I understand why you added the name. But the in-text attribution in this case certainly signals WP:Undue weight. ] (]) 23:04, 4 August 2017 (UTC)
:::We don't need to go to any noticeboard. We are enough here to solve it. ] (]) 14:09, 5 August 2017 (UTC)
:::If and when we get additional sources for the same claim, intext wont be necessary anymore :) ] (]) 14:14, 5 August 2017 (UTC)
:::What more I can think of is moving most of the Steve Jones words into the quote= parameter of the cite template. ] (]) 14:14, 5 August 2017 (UTC)

::::We do need to go to a noticeboard since the content is disputed and the matter is not resolved in any way here. It's not like I will be agreeing with the addition. So I will now be taking the matter to the aforementioned noticeboard; hopefully, some editors will weigh in on the matter there or here. ] (]) 14:17, 6 August 2017 (UTC)

:{{ping|Acroterion}} You reverted content being discussed here. ] (]) 13:46, 7 August 2017 (UTC)
:I reverted an unexplained removal by abn IP of sourced material in an article prone to vandalism. If a consensus is established here for a sourced change, feel free to make the change. I have no opinion in the matter, I am not following this discussion. '''<font face="Arial">] <small>]</small></font>''' 16:16, 7 August 2017 (UTC)

: is Acroterion's revert. If no one weighs in at the noticeboard on the content, I'll simply start a ] on it. ] (]) 22:31, 7 August 2017 (UTC)
Albeit cousin marriage is common in the Middle East as much more sources discuss in the article and in other pages, the claim that people marry their nieces is unfounded. There is no such claim except for his one guy. You can try to look in more sources like scientific journals or books. You won't find such claim. One hyperbolic claim by one guy who seems to have made it out of political inclination should not be seen as reliable. The source and the claim should be removed altogether. You can start a ] It's very easy to come to the conclusion that uncle to niece relationships are not just illegal but they are also not common in the middle east. ] (]) 07:18, 18 August 2017 (UTC)

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== Between adults and children ==

My changes to this section were recently reverted by ]. There were no comments made on either my talk page or the article talk page, so all I have to go on re what the issue with the change was the inline comment re the update. The basic change to the article I am proposing is to note that when incest occurs between an adolescent son and a mother, it is sometimes the son is the abuser. This may be a disturbing conclusion, as are all conclusions in this topic. But it is supported in the literature, which is why I posted it. The primary reference (Courtois) does in fact have an online preview available, contrary to what is stated in the inline comment. That reference is available for preview at . Look at pages 71-72 for this particular topic. The secondary reference (Ward) is referred to by Courtois but may not have an online preview available. Is it necessary that all references be available for free online? There are certainly reliable sources that don't make all their content available for free. But in this case material supporting the statement I made IS available in an online preview. Also it isn't clear what the "variables" are that are unclear although based on another article that ] reverted, this may refer to the age of the son. I will try to find out the exact age of the sons referred to in this study, and also wait for a response to this message. But absent a reason not to reinstate this edit, I will reinstate it in a few days after allowing time for a discussion. I will focus primarily on this article, not the other article that was reverted, as I see this article as the primary focus of the change. ] (]) 17:07, 27 November 2017 (UTC)
:I made a judgement call on the revert. There is no need to act so offended by it. Remember, reverting is not a final decision. The combination of the claim being rather extraordinary and the text not explaining the issue completely suggested this might need some discussion first before including it.
:Regarding the sources, no it is not necessary for them to all be online, but this sensitive topic and the unusual claim necessitated there has to be some kind of way of verifying it. When I clicked through wikipedia's link to google books, it came up empty for both books. Your link solved only partially that problem.
:On the topic itself, there were things not made clear in the edit that are important. First is whether violence (or the threat of, explicit or implied) or impairment were involved. If the conscious mother went along with what happened without there being any threat or power imbalance against her, it sounds awfully suspect. Second is the age of the male. Obviously if the son is pre-pubescent, it casts serious doubt as to him being the "abuser" if the encounter is non-violent. After all, pedophiles since the time they were first studied have made false or even ] claims of the child being the seducer. Courtois states that the source "Arroyo, Eth, and Pynoos 1984" claim a case of an 8 year old, but also use the term "sexual assault," implying there was some kind of aggression. Page 72 of Courtois will not load for me so I can't make further commentary. But these matters need to be made clear in the text.] (]) 18:59, 27 November 2017 (UTC)
:: I'm also skeptical of the claim involving the 8 year old. Since it looks like you were able to access page 71, I'm referring to the "adolescents" mentioned in the previous sentence. In other words I'm referring here to boys young enough to still legally be minors, but old enough to clearly be physically capable of initiating an attack. Not 8 year olds. But I would like to nail down the exact age we are talking about here. I need to review the full original references which I haven't had a chance to do yet.] (]) 19:57, 27 November 2017 (UTC)
:::OK, I got page 72 to load and have a better picture now of the topic. The reference to Ward seems to finally spell it out: They're talking about *rape* by sons. To explain, there is a subtle implication in the term "incest" that implies the encounter is non-violent or even consensual (i.e. between adults), but still "wrong." When violence enters the equation, it's rape/abuse, and the fact that it also happens to be incestuous is simply an aggravating factor. This is probably why terms like "son-initiated incest" sound so strange. A footnote on Page 236 referencing Ward supports this, claiming calling it incest "minimizes the reality of the violation." ] (]) 20:42, 27 November 2017 (UTC)
::::Based on the quote above from page 236, she seems to be arguing that what is generally described as father-daughter incest would be more accurately called rape. After all, the title of her book is "Father Daughter Rape". As such, she seems to be mainly focused on the father-daughter situation, but seems to touch on other forms of intrafamilial sexual violence as well, including the mother-son situation. I want to be sure I'm representing her views correctly before quoting her again.] (]) 07:20, 28 November 2017 (UTC)
:::::I support Legitimus's revert of you here and article. Good to see you discussing this instead of simply reverting. Also good to see Legitimus working the matter out via looking over sources. ] (]) 03:39, 29 November 2017 (UTC)
::::::] I appreciate that and am currently working to research both references thoroughly before reinstating content. At the same time there is clearly content in both references relevant to this article so I expect to reinstate some content-not necessarily exactly matching my original edit-once I've completed my review of the references. ] appears to have acted partly on the basis of the difficulty of accessing my references for free online and that doesn't seem entirely consistent with ] guidelines. But will wait until I thoroughly review both references before I make further edits.] (]) 04:34, 29 November 2017 (UTC)
:::::::I hope you propose the text here first before making the changes to this article or the Child sexual abuse article. Also, per ], keep in mind that the lead is meant for summarizing the article. It is not meant for significant detail not first covered lower in the article.

:::::::On a side note: There is no need to ] me to either article since they are both on my watchlist. ] (]) 04:38, 29 November 2017 (UTC)

:::::::: Flyer22, I am bending over backwards to act in good faith here. But there is no precedent either on this talk page or Misplaced Pages in general to back up your request that I first seek approval of my edits on this talk page. That is a highly unusual request. I will do everything I can to act in good faith here but will not be seeking preapproval of my edits on this talk page unless you can point me to a clear Misplaced Pages policy obligating me to do so. I also don't understand your comment re the lead. I didn't edit the lead in either article. Willing to act in good faith but you are asking more than is reasonable.] (]) 05:08, 29 November 2017 (UTC)

:::::::::It is not a highly unusual request. Do read ] and ]. Your edit was contested. It has now been contested by two editors. The information you are wanting to add is contentious. Legitimus has already identified problems with what you added. Any further text on this matter should have consensus on this talk page first. Or do you want to get it wrong again and end up being reverted again on the matter? ] (]) 06:10, 29 November 2017 (UTC)

:::::::::: Both Misplaced Pages links you mention say that one should attempt to address all editors' concerns. But neither you nor Legitimus have explained what your concerns are. You don't like what I said but haven't explained why. At most Legitimus said he/she couldn't access the references I provided for free online. I already explained per ] that isn't a valid reason for rejecting my edits. By no means am I admitting to getting it wrong. Quite the contrary: I am 99% percent sure I got it right. But I am currently doing the legwork to be sure that I am 100% percent sure before reinstating any edits. You say you are contesting my edits. What exactly is your problem with my edits? If you won't say how can we hope to achieve consensus?] (]) 06:41, 29 November 2017 (UTC)

:::::::::::Legitmus did explain. His "20:42, 27 November 2017 (UTC)" post is one example. And I agree with him. ] (]) 06:49, 29 November 2017 (UTC)

:::::::::::: Legitimus reverted first and didn't explain until much, much later. Not the right order to do things in. Nevertheless it is definitely my intention in good faith to incorporate Legitimus' comments of 11/27 20:42 into any new edits I make to this article. I certainly have an obligation to do that and I believe I already responded in a positive way to Legitimus comments of 11/27 20:42. I would ask you, with respect, to assume until proven otherwise I will address Legitimus' concerns in good faith when I edit this article again. I have been a Wikipedian for 12 years and have some familiarity with how things are done around here. When I edit this article again, do you personally have any concerns you want me to address beyond Legitimus' comments of 11/27 20:42?] (]) 07:15, 29 November 2017 (UTC)
:::::::::::: Legitimus' comments of 11/27 20:42 referenced "rape by the son". But so did my original edit to this article. It is an extremely uncomfortable topic. But I'm not clear where you think I "got it wrong"?] (]) 07:52, 29 November 2017 (UTC)
:To lay out my concerns in detail, the first sentence of the edit was: "While incest between adults and children is generally seen as child abuse, there are cases where mother-son incest is initiated by an adolescent son who is the abuser."
:That way that is stated is what I see as problematic. As I said above, the word choice fixates on the matter of it being incest between an adult and a child, missing or failing to emphasize the fact that this is a actually referring to the violent rape of an adult by an nearly-adult. It comes down to the point you're trying to make. Parent-child incest usually involves non-violent psychological manipulation and an unequal power dynamic of parent and child. In this way, these two types of incident are completely different, with the only similarity being consanguinity. As an alternative, how about the following:
:"While incest between adults and children generally involves the adult as the perpetrator of abuse, there are rare instances of sons sexually assaulting their mothers. These sons are typically mid to late adolescent and unlike parent-initiated incest, the incidents involve some kind of physical force. Although the mothers may be accused of being seductive with their sons and inviting the sexual contact, despite strong contrary evidence. Such accusations can parallel other forms of rape, where due to ] a woman is accused of somehow being at fault for the rape. In some cases mother-son incest is best classified as ] of the mother by the adolescent son."
:] (]) 13:48, 29 November 2017 (UTC)
::Sorry it has taken me a few days to respond, and thank you for proposing a constructive change to my proposed edit. As I mentioned a couple of times, with concerns having been raised I wanted to take the time to fully review the originals of both references I cited. Now that I've done so, I think I'm mostly fine with the change you propose, although I would make one small modification. I would say "mid adolescent to young adult" rather than "mid to late adolescent" as both Ward and Courtois, in referring to the relatively rare known cases, clearly note some cases involving young adult rather than adolescent sons. I will give it a few more days to see if others respond and then make the changes you suggest with my "young adult" modification.] (]) 19:37, 2 December 2017 (UTC)
:::I'm ok with that, though will also wait for other commentary.] (]) 02:32, 3 December 2017 (UTC)
::::Page updated as discussed above since there didn't seem to be any further input.] (]) 05:20, 7 December 2017 (UTC)
:::::. ] (]) 16:50, 7 December 2017 (UTC)


== Zoroastrian section == == Real incest? ==


The article lists "Father–daughter and '''stepfather–stepdaughter''' sex is the most commonly reported form of adult–child incest" but stepfather–stepdaughter sex isn't considered real incest and only pseudo-incest in some cultures or under some religious codes. ] ]|] 22:39, 30 May 2023 (UTC)
], regarding , why did you remove "]," and why are proposing that this small section be made into its own Misplaced Pages article and suggesting that it be named "Xwedodah"? ] (]) 20:52, 20 August 2018 (UTC)
:Maybe stepfather–stepdaughter sex isn't real incest, but it's very bad mojo. I'm in the USA, and here it would be almost universally condemned and considered incest and labeled incest. You can't control how people use words. I can't speak for other countries. ] (]) 19:18, 6 September 2023 (UTC)
: {{Reply to|Flyer22 Reborn}} Regarding Zoroastrianism, I didn't remove it, I moved it into the second sentence. As to why I did that, that's because Zoroastrianism and Ancient Persia in this context are not synonymous. That is, Zoroastrianism developed after the ancient period of Persian history had already begun. So why did I put Ancient Persia there instead of Zoroastrianism? Because that's what's claimed in this book I used as a reference for that very sentence </nowiki>] (page 21, second paragraph)
::This isn't about "bad mojo", whatever that is, but about what constitutes incest so it should stick to the definition. While such relationships were seen as impropriety in biblical Jewish times they are not incest. I also don't know which part of the USA you are from but it seems such kind of relationships regularly pop up there without much chagrin. ] ]|] 20:45, 8 November 2023 (UTC)


== Distant cousins ==
: As for a standalone article, there's clearly enough material to write one (just type Xwedodah into Google Scholar), and we have standalone article for concepts of incest in other religions (e.g. ]) ] (]) 02:16, 21 August 2018 (UTC)
::], I understand going for accuracy. But Zoroastrianism aside (and with subsequent edits included), you changed material that was sourced. If there are conflicting opinions on the topic, it should be presented with ]. Per Due weight, if one view is a tiny minority, it need not be mentioned at all. There is a lot I don't know about religious topics, though, which is why I might bring ] into this. As for splitting the section, I questioned you asking for a split because the section is small and the article should be created first. It is not ideal to split that small section off into its own article and have the material excluded from this article or have have a single sentence while the stub article details the rest. See ], ], ] and ] as a whole. On a side note: Since this article is on my watchlist, there is no need to ping me to this talk page. ] (]) 23:34, 21 August 2018 (UTC)
::: Flyer22 Reborn, I think you deeply misunderstood the situation. The original sentence, which referred to Zoroastrianism instead of Ancient Persia, was referenced by that exact source. I didn't change the source.
::: As for whether the section should be splat, what I meant by adding that template is that perhaps someone more invested into the topic can make a standalone article about that peculiar tradition and make it bigger than the current section of this article because all the necessary research is there, just someone needs to invest the time to write a Wiki article about that. I am not sure that the current rules indicate that the split template should only be used to indicate that a section of an article is too big and therefore should be splat from it, or, at least in my experience tells me that that template is mostly used to indicate the same thing I used it to. ] (]) 10:31, 22 August 2018 (UTC)
::::Openlydialectic, edit shows that the "Sex and Punishment Four Thousand Years of Judging Desire, Eric Berkowitz. pp. 21–22, 2012." source was already there. Whoever added it apparently added it to support the Zoroastrianism part. You changed the wording, and added a template/URL version of the source. Then you made other edits to the section. That is what I mean.


I have a 6th degree relative (second cousin). We share 2.6% of DNA. I could legally marry her in several EU countries. So, I don't understand the fuss about distant cousins: that isn't incest according to the laws of several EU countries. Why should we care if European nobles married their distant cousins centuries ago? The point: DNA similarity dilutes very quickly with each passing generation. Example: Romanian law prohibits incest, but marrying your second cousin isn't incest. Genetic similarity of relatives of the 9th degree (and higher) is negligible to all practical purposes. And that's what "distant cousins" means. ] (]) 04:50, 11 September 2023 (UTC)
::::As for splitting the section, the template suggests that the section that is there now needs to split out into its own article. In my experience, that is how the template is usually used. Like I stated above, the section does not need to be split out at this point. Not in its current state. I feel that the tag should be removed. It will just sit there for years perhaps. I've seen such tags just sit there for a long time before eventually being removed. And if someone takes up the suggestion, they might just create a stub, taking the whole small section with them. But I understand you wanting to encourage someone to create a substantial article on the topic. ] (]) 14:54, 23 August 2018 (UTC)
::Are you referring to the start of the "From the Middle Ages onward" section? I did rewrite that to clarify. I assume that the deal is that if you're occasionally marrying first cousins, but when it's not a first cousin it's probably a second or third cousin or something like that, almost always, for generation after generation, you're going to get problems (e.g. ]).. The passage doesn't say that. It does imply it. I don't think anyone knows for sure how much this contributed to ] etc. ] (]) 05:02, 12 September 2023 (UTC)


==Wiki Education assignment: Gender and Culture==
::::: Flyer22 Reborn, I "changed the wording" of the sentence because it incorrectly represented what's written in the book that sentence was sourced by: the book's sentence talked about Ancient Persia, but the sentence on Misplaced Pages, which I changed, replaced it with Zoroastrianism. As for the template, I'll replace it with Expand Section one instead. ] (]) 09:09, 25 August 2018 (UTC)
{{dashboard.wikiedu.org assignment | course = Misplaced Pages:Wiki_Ed/California_State_University_Northridge/Gender_and_Culture_(Fall_2023) | assignments = ] | start_date = 2023-08-28 | end_date = 2023-12-18 }}


<span class="wikied-assignment" style="font-size:85%;">— Assignment last updated by ] (]) 22:05, 6 October 2023 (UTC)</span>
== Mother-Son ==


==Commonness of incest in ancient Greece==
New to Misplaced Pages editing but concerned about the following in the 5th paragraph of the between adults and children section: "Research by Leslie Margolin indicates that mother-son incest does not trigger some innate biological response, but that the effects are more directly related to the symbolic meanings attributed to this act by the participants."
] and ], sibling incest was not common in ancient Greece and this is a typo. See for example this: https://www.cambridge.org/core/journals/journal-of-hellenic-studies/article/abs/familiarity-breeds-incest-and-the-ptolemaic-dynasty/C60A3A24562133A347E54A8F5977D690
It discusses how sibling incest was viewed as morally abhorrent and was outside Greek tradition. That is why the marriages were controversial. I am fixing the typo again, as I don't think this should really be controversial. Happy to go to WP:DRN if it really is.
] (]) 15:40, 1 November 2023 (UTC)


:Can you please do the edit together with the proper references to the reliable sources, i.e. not only change a word but to make such a change that it be accompanying by the references, so the other editors could see that those claims are properly backed up? I mentioned it in the talk page of ]
For such a sensitive subject, a casual reading of this seems to suggest that mother-son incest isn't psychologically damaging to the victims like other forms of adult-child incest or indeed doesn't have a victim. Especially given where that sentence is placed, just after the sentence about impact. The body of scientific evidence in this area seems to be against this implication. Indeed Margolin article starts by saying "The idea that mother-son incest is the most damaging form of incestuous behaviour has been commonplace in psychiatric and sociological literature for the last thirty years." <ref>https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007%2FBF01553341</ref> and indeed the majority of recent studies since Margolin's seem to fall in line with this as well. Margolin's study does not even clinically asses survivors as other do but merely draws on "case material". It seems to be an article that goes against the grain almost for the sake of it and is at odds with the literature. It should not be the only reference.
:Thank you! ] (]) 15:51, 1 November 2023 (UTC)
::Okay, sure.
::] (]) 15:53, 1 November 2023 (UTC)
:::Thank you for understanding! Sorry that I didn't mention it before, but when such changes are made without proper references, people may wrongly consider it vandalism, however, it may be indeed a good-faith edit. ] (]) 15:56, 1 November 2023 (UTC)
::::I actually noticed that the reference I googled happened to be the one already in the article, cited in that very line. So now it is cited twice.
::::] (]) 15:59, 1 November 2023 (UTC)
:::::You can give names to references in the "ref" tag and then use this tag multiple times only giving the name, without all other attributes. ] (]) 16:00, 1 November 2023 (UTC)
::::::I understand. I was just trying to fix a one word typo, based on the source that was already in that line of the article. Would you mind fixing it?
::::::] (]) 16:03, 1 November 2023 (UTC)
:::::::@] I am not competent to determine whether it was a typo or intentional word, so I let other editors to decide on substance ] (]) 07:57, 2 November 2023 (UTC)
:::Since this page is semi-protected, and you are not logged in with a user account in wikipedia, it will take time for your edit to be reviewed by editors, they may further decide on whether to accept or revert the change. ] (]) 15:59, 1 November 2023 (UTC)


== hic thalamum invasit natae vetitosque hymenaeos ==
I suggest either citing an article contradicting the Margolin article to counterbalance eg: <ref>https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12092807</ref> or <ref>https://www.news.com.au/lifestyle/real-life/true-stories/unspoken-abuse-mothers-who-rape-their-sons/news-story/25ad244866c90d0bceac6094e2523a7e</ref>


Terrible mistranslation. “This man invaded (encroached upon) the wedding-bed of his daughter, a forbidden marriage.” ] (]) 11:22, 30 November 2023 (UTC)
Or, as I personally think is more appropriate we can remove the citation and sentence completely and just talk less controversially about rarity and under-reporting citing possibly: <ref>https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/0145213493900457</ref>, letting the "impact" section stand to refer to mother-son incest as well. However, the underreporting bit would better fit at the top of the first paragraph, after the section on Father-son incest, so the 5th paragraph we could just leave as one sentence.


== The word incest doesn't specify that it is about sex ==
Happy to edit the main page myself but didn't want to just wade in on what must be a heavily monitered article.


The word incest literally means "impure". There is no specific mention of sex in that word, unlike for example "inbreeding". I've seen news articles about mothers who married their own sons and fathers who married their own daughters. I don't think e.g. "inwedding" is a recognised word, but it is established that sexuality and loyalty (or "romance") are not always both present (e.g. asexual but not "aromantic"). There seems to be no mention of this, not on ] either. This page only mentions sex. ] (]) 10:40, 15 January 2024 (UTC)
] (]) 01:20, 12 September 2018 (UTC)
:Do you have sources that describe incest excluding sex? ꧁]꧂ 00:01, 12 June 2024 (UTC)


== Westermarck effect ==


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Should there not be some mention of (or section on) the Westermarck effect here, rather than it merely being listed among the related articles? ] (]) 10:05, 19 August 2020 (UTC)
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Real incest?

The article lists "Father–daughter and stepfather–stepdaughter sex is the most commonly reported form of adult–child incest" but stepfather–stepdaughter sex isn't considered real incest and only pseudo-incest in some cultures or under some religious codes. Biofase | stalk  22:39, 30 May 2023 (UTC)

Maybe stepfather–stepdaughter sex isn't real incest, but it's very bad mojo. I'm in the USA, and here it would be almost universally condemned and considered incest and labeled incest. You can't control how people use words. I can't speak for other countries. Herostratus (talk) 19:18, 6 September 2023 (UTC)
This isn't about "bad mojo", whatever that is, but about what constitutes incest so it should stick to the definition. While such relationships were seen as impropriety in biblical Jewish times they are not incest. I also don't know which part of the USA you are from but it seems such kind of relationships regularly pop up there without much chagrin. Biofase | stalk  20:45, 8 November 2023 (UTC)

Distant cousins

I have a 6th degree relative (second cousin). We share 2.6% of DNA. I could legally marry her in several EU countries. So, I don't understand the fuss about distant cousins: that isn't incest according to the laws of several EU countries. Why should we care if European nobles married their distant cousins centuries ago? The point: DNA similarity dilutes very quickly with each passing generation. Example: Romanian law prohibits incest, but marrying your second cousin isn't incest. Genetic similarity of relatives of the 9th degree (and higher) is negligible to all practical purposes. And that's what "distant cousins" means. tgeorgescu (talk) 04:50, 11 September 2023 (UTC)

Are you referring to the start of the "From the Middle Ages onward" section? I did rewrite that to clarify. I assume that the deal is that if you're occasionally marrying first cousins, but when it's not a first cousin it's probably a second or third cousin or something like that, almost always, for generation after generation, you're going to get problems (e.g. Hapsburg Jaw).. The passage doesn't say that. It does imply it. I don't think anyone knows for sure how much this contributed to Hapsburg Jaw etc. Herostratus (talk) 05:02, 12 September 2023 (UTC)

Wiki Education assignment: Gender and Culture

This article was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment, between 28 August 2023 and 18 December 2023. Further details are available on the course page. Student editor(s): MichelleEstrada55 (article contribs).

— Assignment last updated by Alyssagarcia.422 (talk) 22:05, 6 October 2023 (UTC)

Commonness of incest in ancient Greece

User:Yue and User:CycloneYoris, sibling incest was not common in ancient Greece and this is a typo. See for example this: https://www.cambridge.org/core/journals/journal-of-hellenic-studies/article/abs/familiarity-breeds-incest-and-the-ptolemaic-dynasty/C60A3A24562133A347E54A8F5977D690 It discusses how sibling incest was viewed as morally abhorrent and was outside Greek tradition. That is why the marriages were controversial. I am fixing the typo again, as I don't think this should really be controversial. Happy to go to WP:DRN if it really is. 69.142.179.131 (talk) 15:40, 1 November 2023 (UTC)

Can you please do the edit together with the proper references to the reliable sources, i.e. not only change a word but to make such a change that it be accompanying by the references, so the other editors could see that those claims are properly backed up? I mentioned it in the talk page of User_talk:69.142.179.131
Thank you! Maxim Masiutin (talk) 15:51, 1 November 2023 (UTC)
Okay, sure.
69.142.179.131 (talk) 15:53, 1 November 2023 (UTC)
Thank you for understanding! Sorry that I didn't mention it before, but when such changes are made without proper references, people may wrongly consider it vandalism, however, it may be indeed a good-faith edit. Maxim Masiutin (talk) 15:56, 1 November 2023 (UTC)
I actually noticed that the reference I googled happened to be the one already in the article, cited in that very line. So now it is cited twice.
69.142.179.131 (talk) 15:59, 1 November 2023 (UTC)
You can give names to references in the "ref" tag and then use this tag multiple times only giving the name, without all other attributes. Maxim Masiutin (talk) 16:00, 1 November 2023 (UTC)
I understand. I was just trying to fix a one word typo, based on the source that was already in that line of the article. Would you mind fixing it?
69.142.179.131 (talk) 16:03, 1 November 2023 (UTC)
@69.142.179.131 I am not competent to determine whether it was a typo or intentional word, so I let other editors to decide on substance Maxim Masiutin (talk) 07:57, 2 November 2023 (UTC)
Since this page is semi-protected, and you are not logged in with a user account in wikipedia, it will take time for your edit to be reviewed by editors, they may further decide on whether to accept or revert the change. Maxim Masiutin (talk) 15:59, 1 November 2023 (UTC)

hic thalamum invasit natae vetitosque hymenaeos

Terrible mistranslation. “This man invaded (encroached upon) the wedding-bed of his daughter, a forbidden marriage.” 203.164.227.115 (talk) 11:22, 30 November 2023 (UTC)

The word incest doesn't specify that it is about sex

The word incest literally means "impure". There is no specific mention of sex in that word, unlike for example "inbreeding". I've seen news articles about mothers who married their own sons and fathers who married their own daughters. I don't think e.g. "inwedding" is a recognised word, but it is established that sexuality and loyalty (or "romance") are not always both present (e.g. asexual but not "aromantic"). There seems to be no mention of this, not on Child marriage either. This page only mentions sex. Wallby (talk) 10:40, 15 January 2024 (UTC)

Do you have sources that describe incest excluding sex? ꧁Zanahary꧂ 00:01, 12 June 2024 (UTC)


Possible copyright problem

This article has been revised as part of a large-scale clean-up project of multiple article copyright infringement. (See the investigation subpage) Earlier text must not be restored, unless it can be verified to be free of infringement. For legal reasons, Misplaced Pages cannot accept copyrighted text or images borrowed from other web sites or printed material; such additions must be deleted. Contributors may use sources as a source of information, but not as a source of sentences or phrases. Accordingly, the material may be rewritten, but only if it does not infringe on the copyright of the original or plagiarize from that source. Please see our guideline on non-free text for how to properly implement limited quotations of copyrighted text. Misplaced Pages takes copyright violations very seriously. GreenLipstickLesbian (talk) 07:10, 16 June 2024 (UTC)

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