| Revision as of 16:31, 31 December 2006 editAciram (talk | contribs)Extended confirmed users, Pending changes reviewers124,636 edits ruling widows← Previous edit |
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==Edit history before 16 July 2005== |
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<!--Talk page begins here--> |
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Before ] at 04:03, 16 July 2005 expanded the text on this page, ] was to be found as a subsection of ], so look at the for a history of the text before 16 July 2005. --] 18:21, 24 July 2005 (UTC) |
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== Unsourced material in "The Enforcement of India's 1987 Sati Law" section == |
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There is a lot of unsourced material in this section. There are also speculative and/or subjective statements, such as "...unless immediate countermeasures are taken at many levels, the prevalence of Sati in these locations is likely to continue and may even occur more frequently," and "The society viewed it as an honour to deny a woman her rights because she is "dependant" on her husband..." |
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== Ruling widows == |
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Someone should either clean up this section or removed the unsourced material. If nothing happens and no one replies here, I will delete the unsourced material myself in a few days. ] (]) 20:24, 16 June 2023 (UTC) |
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I wonder about something interesting; as a widow generally had a such low regard if she where alive, why is it that theywhere so many ruling widows in the hindu principalitys of the old India? They are an overwlming amount of examples of queens who took over the trone after their husbands death, not only as minor regents, but as ruling monarchs. It would be interesting to understand why this was an ecxpetion;these where not unusual at all, and they where in many cases popular regents. Why was this accepted. |
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:Done ] (]) 03:50, 26 June 2023 (UTC) |
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==POV/NPOV== |
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:Bokka ] (]) 12:21, 1 March 2024 (UTC) |
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I found this to be an excellent article about something I had ''heard'' of but ''knew'' nothing of. However it needs some more work to be NPOV. There seem to be quite a few structural changes, happening so I'm having a hard time following the edit history. When the content has stabilised, I'll be contributing, but I'll wait in order to avoid edit conflicts. ]]] 05:26, 16 July 2005 (UTC) |
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== Reverted Rigveda content == |
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==Comment by Sir Charles Napier - NPOV discussion== |
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@]- please discuss your edit here and provide a good reliable source for it. Your previous edit (now reverted) had removed sourced content and had added content with unreliable sources. ] (]) 04:20, 10 May 2024 (UTC) |
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The smug comment by Sir Charles Napier is racist - it serves to only paint a whole community more than addressing the custom itself. Also, how was he 'well known' for his opposition except by the popularity (among westerners) of his comment ? I would like to remove. Please let me know if anyone has objections. If I don't hear back I will remove shortly.--] 19:48, 27 July 2005 (UTC) |
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== What no mention of Daenerys??? == |
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:Sir Charles' comment was not racist at all. He stated what measures he would take if the practice of murdering widows were continued, and he did not state that the penalty for murder would only be applied to Indians, did he? |
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Asoiaf isn't there you uncultured swans ] (]) 07:27, 19 October 2024 (UTC) |
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*I'd like this discussed further. ]]] 00:46, 28 July 2005 (UTC) |
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I do not think it smug of racist. As it was directed at specific people not at the community as a whole. He is an important actor in the process of making Suttee illegal and he was well known for is opposition to it. The British ruled much of India at the time and if they had not agreed with Rammohun Roy then Suttee would not have been abolished. You can not air brush out the British contribution to the stopping of this custom and still give a balanced history of what happened. |
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The timing of the campaign against Suttee is also significant from the point of view of British social transition. The rise of Methodism and the abolishment of slavery throughout the British Empire, (led by social reformers like ]), are manifestations of the social transition which took place witin the United Kingdom between the Georgian and Victorian period and because of the size of the British Empire had world wide ramifications of which the abolition of Surtee is one example. ] 08:26, 28 July 2005 (UTC) |
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:Philip, Can you point me to any references that point to his role? All I can find is his comment that made him well known. I am not brushing away British contribtion but specifically object to his comment and mention of his role (that I don't know of). Also, it may have been directed at the people that approached him at the time, but the comment definetely conveys the impression of Indian against British. 'We' is British and 'you' is 'natives' (as they were called). Am I missing something? --] 02:22, 29 July 2005 (UTC) |
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Philip, Please let me know why you removed the above talk on Charles Napier. Also, can we come to a consensus on removing it? And I am finding it hard to find British contributions to the abolition of Suttee other than passing the law and being appalled (naturally) by the practice. If the Indians went to Britain during (for example) the withchunts (which were far more extensive & severe in volume), they would probably have been appalled too. Also, I think we must keep in mind that the primary business of the British in India was making money and they were wary of touching sensitive issues - Indian Social reformers did play a large role in getting the law passed. I may be misguided in my assumptions - if so, please point me to references that show otherwise. --] 01:04, 2 August 2005 (UTC) |
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::It was a glitch which happens if a section is being saved when all of the page has not yet been returned by the server. It can happen when the server is slow. "Show Preview" yep looks ok, "Save Page" if the save happens before all of the HTML page has been returned then it zaps the other sections.] 09:17, 3 August 2005 (UTC) |
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:I've been looking for a reference on the net but have not found one yet. He was govener of large chunks of India around the time the policy was being implemented but the two major external articles on his page tend to emphasise his military exploits rather than his adminstrative ones. |
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:BTW I think that the the quote is worth including because like a sound bite used in a TV news program, it helps to emphases the point. ] 20:04, 2 August 2005 (UTC) |
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A sound bite? Can you please respond to the racist connotations? The practice was ''obviously'' appalling - IMO, don't think we need a racist, colonial 'sound bite' to convey that. Can anyone else following this discussion pls share their thoughts? Otherwise, I'd like to put a NPOV check on this to provide balance. --] 00:20, 3 August 2005 (UTC) |
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:To address some of your points. The motive for holding the empire were always multifaceted. But before the Napoleonic wars access to territory for trade had always been very important. As the 19th century progressed, three additional reasons seem to have gained in importance. The first was the realisation that taxing the natives, particularly property taxes, could return a profit on a territory, so holding territory could be commercially viable even if trade was not a major factor. The second reason was pure imperialism to hold territory because it inflated the egos of the imperialists (that imperialism was a good thing) and coupled to that, the denial of territory to other would be European imperialists. The third reason can be seen in the North West Frontier with a need to dominate an area of little commercial value but important as a buffer area against encroachment of the empire by other empires as well as the need to pacify an neighbouring area which would/could raid into the commercial territories of the empire. As the British Empire got larger so the buffer areas became larger. |
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:The growth of the imperialist empire coincided with the growth of the British middle class who's ideas on social reforms also became politically important in Britain. Because of this change which was taking place in Britain, there was a tendency for the political class to argue that "something must be done" whenever a social issue was presented in the British press. The imperial empire was run by politicians for political reasons and not just for commercial gain, and so they were more inclined to do things for political social reasons than was countenanced in an earlier age and in the earlier commercial Empire. |
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:I am sure that if there had been Indians in England during the time of the ] then a correspondence from them back to family and friends in India would include a couple of good sound bites. If an Indian state had been ruling sizeable parts of the Island of Britain in the 17th century and had been instrumental in stopping witch finding then I would be disingenuous not to highlight their contribution to ending witch finding. |
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:As to the quote there are imperial connotations to it, but what are the racist connotation? As to putting a NPOV on the article what would you like to add to the article to balance up the POV? ] 09:11, 3 August 2005 (UTC) |
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I see we have different POVs regarding British motives in India. I would not like to argue that since it takes focus off of the article. If you can show references to British (or Napier) involvment/activism/contribution to the abolition of Sati, please present them. Otherwise, I would like to remove phrase stating Napier was 'well known' for his opposition. It seems the 'well known' was tagged on after the fact to buttress his comment. Also, I didn't realise the comment was not ''obviously'' racist to others as it might be to me or other Indians. First of all, it's directed at the whole community from a British holier-than-thou perspective rather than at the custom |
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itself - which should be reason enough. Secondly, it is not true. Some 200,000 (by modest estimates) (witches apart from other heretics) were burned in fire in Europe by men. The men not only went scotfree but probably received applause from the crowds. The last witch trial in England was held in 1944. England repealed the last anti-witchcraft law in 1951. |
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I would like to see this comment removed for it to be NPOV. --] 23:36, 3 August 2005 (UTC) |
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:His comments were not addressed to the whole communtiy, but to a delegation which came to see him. I am not sure what argument you are trying to put forward about witches. Very few women were burned as witches in England, it tended to be used as a punishment for high treason as the equivalent of ]. But as the article you highlighted makes clear the burning alive of women for any crime was abolished in 1790, after a 50 year period when the women had been strangled before being burnt. Those who were burnt during the proceeding 100 years had all be burnt after being found guilty of a crime after due process of law. BTW the abolition of such barbaric punishments in Britain, is a further indicator of the way public opinion was changing in Britain over such issues in the late 18th and early 19th centurys. But to make Napier's point clear: if anyone had decided to kill a woman just because her husband had died, (cremation was not popular in christian Britain until some time after this date so the equivelent would have been buried alive), then under English law from the earliest of times they would have been hanged. |
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:As an aside, I came to this article via ] who was one of three brothers and a cousin ], who all held middle to senior positions in the British establishment. There was some confusion over which Napier did what in the ], so I expanded the articles a bit to make it easier for people to link to the correct Napier. But back to your question on the sinning Napier, here are the results of a quick Google:. |
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:General Sir Charles Napier was governor of Sindh from 1843-47: |
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:* http://www.britannica.com/eb/article-9054812 |
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:* http://www.pas.gov.pk/history.htm |
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:*http://www.dawn.com/weekly/cowas/20041121.htm |
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:* http://www.dawn.com/weekly/cowas/20030209.htm |
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:Here is another link (http://www.plexoft.com/SBF/P02.html) which states under "''peccavi''": |
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::'' For example, critics observed correctly that slavery was an ancient custom in much of the region, and that the British had promised not to interfere with local customs when they took over. Napier ignored this, acting harshly (and probably sometimes unjustly, since he admitted that he often judged against the evidence) against people accused of slavery. He likewise acted against Hindu suttee, and against cuckolded (or merely homicidally jealous) husbands who murdered their wives.'' |
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:--] 16:19, 4 August 2005 (UTC) |
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::I am glad we agree that 'we' is British. When we is British/westerners, to me that automatically implies the 'you' is Indians.''when men burn a woman alive, we tie a rope around their necks and we hang them.'' - I am disputing that as a custom of the British (which is different from 'Law'. BTW, the argument of 'Due process of law' does not justify an unjust law or custom). An argument of - it was our custom 50 years ago, but not now - doesn't gel with his statement. (BTW, did continue infrequently into the 19th century in England. There is no mention of tieing a rope and hanging the people involved in the burnings.) Also, suttee as a 'custom' (as opposed to practice maybe) was not murder but voluntary suicide. |
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::Again, I am not interested in all the articles about Napier, as that is not the scope of this discussion. I am '''solely''' concerned with his contribution to Suttee. From your last reference, we could possibly note that ''Sir Charles Napier (in his capacity as a Judge?) acted harshly against Suttee.'' I am not convinced of the 'well known for his opposition' tag. I have not called Napier a sinner - I have merely asserted that his comment is racist per modern definitions and does not deserve to be in this article. Please don't distort my argument and lose focus on the main point. |
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::I am sorry that we cannot understand each other's views. I still suggest we put in an NPOV check for a neutral observer to provide balance. --] 21:42, 4 August 2005 (UTC) |
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:Your wrote above: "''I may be misguided in my assumptions - if so, please point me to references that show otherwise.''" and "''Again, I am not interested in all the articles about Napier, as that is not the scope of this discussion''". So it is not the man or his contribution you are interested. What you are interested in is the inappropriate wording of statement made by a man dead for 152 years. The statement is representative of the condescending imperialist tone and patterns of thought of a British man close to the summit of power in the British empire in the middle of it's most dynamic and self confident phase, and it helps explain why and how the practice was stopped in British controlled lands in India. For this reason it is an appropriate quote to have a section on the abolition of Suttee. If you wish to add something to provide a balance that in you opinion should be added then add away, but I think the quote should remain in the article. ] 08:14, 5 August 2005 (UTC) |
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::::By '' misguided..assumptions.. please point.. refernces...'' I meant references to British role in Suttee. Before I added Rammohan Roy's role, there was no reference to Indians who I believe played a major role (along with British probably) in the abolition. Yes, I am not interested in the man or his contributions - only to his contribution to Sati. No article on Sati mentions his name. ''If'' the comment by Napier remain, we will need an aside explaining that the statement was representative of the condescending imperialist attitude of the British and also that the statement itself was not true of actual British customs, which included burning of witches at the stake. Without a self-critical gaze it is easy to be condescending. Without an aside on the actual customs, the article only affirms his statement and reinforces any notions of racial superiority in the reader's mind. I think the comment should not remain because Napier was ''not'' an important player in the abolition of Sati and his comment was popular ''only'' in western circles mainly because of tone. It has no value as a fact and it's value as a sound-bite is disputable. --] 14:46, 5 August 2005 (UTC) |
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I am surprised that Napier's statement reinforces any notions of racial superiority in your mind because it does not do so in mine. What makes you think that the statement would in anyone else's mind? |
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Perhaps it does not reinforce "racial superiority" in my mind because I am not sure what "racial" means. I would have thought that cultural superiority would be a more appropriate term and if you had used that term I would not agree with you that it does reinforce cultural superiority because he is talking about one practice which no longer exists in India and a second practice which no longer exists in Britain. So the cultural link if any is very thin. |
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"''the statement itself was not true of actual British customs, which included burning of witches at the stake.''" It was not the custom in Britain during the C19th to burn women at the stake. Anyone doing so would have been hanged. If there was a case of burning a woman for being a witch 100 years either side of 1850 please give a reference. To include such a comment would be like saying that "The ] inspired none violent political protest should be balanced with thought that it was an Indian custom less than 40 years before Gandhi was born was to burn women alive on their husbands funeral pyres", the qualification although true is irrelevant and I suspect you (IMHO rightly) would object to such wording. --] 10:37, 6 August 2005 (UTC) |
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BTW as you are objecting to a section in the article and not the whole article perhpase you should consider changing the page {{tl|NPOV}} for a section {{tl|NPOV-section}}. --] 10:55, 6 August 2005 (UTC) |
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::I will not respond to the ''racial superiority'' question, as I can see that argument as never-ending with only the both of us argueing. |
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::Again, the comment is, ''You say that it is your custom to burn widows. Very well. We also have a custom: when men burn a woman alive, we tie a rope around their necks and we hang them. Build your funeral pyre; beside it, my carpenters will build a gallows. You may follow your custom. And then we will follow ours'' |
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::It is factually incorrect. |
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::Until 1790, every woman convicted of counterfeiting gold or silver coin of the realm, was sentenced to be drawn on a hurdle to the place of execution and there " to be burned with fire till she was dead." (Blackstone's Commentaries, 204. Ibid, 377). The last case of burning at the stake, in Britain, was Catherine Murphy (for coining offense) in 1789. Please point me to the law or reference to a case where, burning anyone at the stake, post 1790, is punishable by death. |
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::No, "Gandhi inspired non violent political protest should be balanced with thought that it was an Indian custom less than 40 years before Gandhi was born was to burn women alive on their husbands funeral pyres", is '''not''' similar to my suggested aside. ''Gandhi inspired non violent protest should be balanced with the thought that 50 years earlier '''he''' burnt women alive on their husband's funeral pyre'' '''is similar to''' ''British custom of hanging men that burnt women alive should be balanced with the thought that 50 years earlier a legal punishment in Britain was "burning till she was dead"''. The former statement is not true, the latter statement is also not true in that there is no evidence that hanging was the British customary punishment for burning at the stake. |
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:: Again, can someone else step in? I'm tired of this argument - Philip will not budge from his stand and I am convinced that the statement should go. --] 03:24, 9 August 2005 (UTC) |
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First let me say how pleased I am by the level of discussion that is taking place here. I wish the other pages I frequented were as civilized and erudite. Which is ''also'' why I've had not much to say until now! ^_^<br/> |
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I must admit that upon reading the quote I was startled by it's paternalistic tone. While I do understand Pranathi's objections, unless there is any doubt ''that he actually said it'' I believe it should stay. It's factuality (e.g. burning witches) is immaterial, I'm sorry to say. There also appears to be little question as to his influence and authority. While the quote itself may demonstrate POV, I do not see that including it does.<br/>]]] 04:26, 9 August 2005 (UTC) |
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==non Indic suttee== |
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I have linked my ] to this page. It speaks of the very early Indo-European practice of suttee in Europe. It is not unreasonable to believe the IE-speakers also introduced it to India. Modern English uses the term more broadly than as a practice found in older forms of Hinduism. The early Indo-Europeans really did practice it, and the article needs to reflect this, way at the top. --] 07:06, 1 August 2005 (UTC) |
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:It is also possible that the practice developed separately at different times and places. So I do not think it is correct to include this speculation in this article without a reference to published Archaeological evidence from a respectable publication which shows some form of link in this practice between Europe and India. |
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:Where is you evidence that "Modern English uses the term more broadly than as a practice found in older forms of Hinduism"? What is that statement supposed to signify? |
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:Pagan vikings burials have been found with women ritually sacrificed in the grave, but that is not normally referred to as "suttee". ] 17:03, 1 August 2005 (UTC) |
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::Explicit reference to English usage and a highly distinguished published archaeological source: |
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:::], "Globular Amphora Culture", ''Encyclopedia of Indo-European Culture'', Fitzroy Dearborn, 1997, p. 227: |
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::::''Here special emphasis is placed on the evidence for sutee, the execution of the wife on the death of the husband.'' |
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:::The term is found in the ] literature, used just this way.--] 23:18, 1 August 2005 (UTC) |
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::::I know of at least two mounds in my vicinity where they have found the remains of women together with the king (I live near ])--] 20:05, 2 August 2005 (UTC) |
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:The a section making the case with a referece to the publication should add depth to the article :-) --] 20:04, 2 August 2005 (UTC) |
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At the very top, a kind of dictionary definition: |
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:'''Suttee''' is the cultural practice of inducing a wife or concubine of a deceased male (usually one of high social rank) to commit suicide, or alternatively, forthrightly murdering her, with her remains then being interred or cremated with those of the deceased male. |
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Contents |
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#Etymology |
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#Hindu practice |
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#Provenance and Prevalance |
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#Alleged Scriptural Endorsement |
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#Jauhar |
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#Abolition and continuing incidence |
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#Practice elsewhere. |
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#See also |
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#External Links |
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:English borrowed the word from Hindi ... bla bla bla(need some help here) and applied it initially to the Hindu practice, but has since used it more broady, as a technical term in a number of learnéd contexts, archaeology among them. It is also used to describe Brünnhilde's immolation in the final act of Richard Wagner's ]. |
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--existing article-- |
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--sep section-- |
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:While there is intermittant evidence of the practice worldwide, it is also regarded as a distinctive practice of very early Indo-European cultures (in distinction to other adjacent cultures), and is attested archaeologically in ancient north central and eastern Europe. It is not untenable to regard the Hindu practice as a survival of this lamentable custom. |
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I've got the start of a separate article here, I think. I would be nice to mention the grandest and most glorious of suttees in Western Art, that of Brünnhilde. --] 20:05, 4 August 2005 (UTC) |
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:I persume you intend to add this informaion as a new section to the article not to replace the sections on suttee as practiced in India which ought to remain the main focus of this article ] 08:18, 5 August 2005 (UTC) |
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::My thoughts are a brief dictionary-type entry, like the first and third paragraphs above (tho' this needs refining), with a reference to a separate section on the practice in other cultures. |
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==Comment by Sir Charles Napier - NPOV discussion cont'd== |
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Well, as I was reading the article and going thru the Napier's comment I didn't feel that the comment was intended to prove any racial superiority. First of all, why should the term "racial" prevail in our minds. It's only if u have the pride of ur own race(that is racism exists in ur mind in any form) then u will be prejudiced by such comments. Anyway if that is comment made by someone during that time just let the fact remain as it is. Why being prejudiced? Let the people opine themselves freely and u read their comments with the neutrality of mind. |
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:Let me attempt to summarize the argument here.. There are 4 points relevant to argument of removing/retaining the comment (as a sound bite) in the article. |
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:* Inflnce of Napier - General, conqueror & governor (1843–47) of Sindh, now in Pakistan. |
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:* Influence of Napier in the dynamics of Sati abolition - No article on Sati (except Misplaced Pages) mentions his name. Not a big player. |
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:* Accuracy of his comment - Factually incorrect. Argument is that inaccuracy warrants removing it or adding an aside to convey that. Argument to retain comment is that the accuracy is immaterial. |
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:* Tone of comment - paternalistic. Argument to remove is that it is racist and paints a whole community instead of the custom. Value of including a POV comment (without an aside on accuracy & tone) is disputed. Argument to retain is that it's not racist and while the comment is POV, including it (without asides) is not. |
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:Let me know if I am missing anything. If not, I'll take a break and return later.--] 06:43, 14 August 2005 (UTC) |
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::Hello there. So having read your lengthy discussion I thought I'd suggest you qualify this statement rather than remove it. First, that Napier is well-known but his contribution to this issue may not be. Second, before introducing add something like "...typically sanctimonious...captures both genuine disgust but also British paternalism..." etc. I think Pranathi your comments underscore hypocrisy rather than error. Is it "factually incorrect" that a man or men burning a woman alive in 1850 in Britain would be hanged? No. Is it hypocritcal given Britain's own history of corporal punishment and imperial behaviour? Yes. Finally, not to sound callous, but the fact that a comment may be considered racist isn't in itself a reason to remove it from Wiki. Qualify it properly and assume readers have the sense to place it in context. ] 09:26, 14 August 2005 (UTC) |
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Thanks for your time and input. Yes, hypocrisy is a more apt word. Yes, ''properly qualified'', I agree that inluding it is not POV. I will add an aside on hypocrisy and tone similar to what Marskell suggests. Please discuss if anyone doesn't agree. |
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I am thinking that, given the low importance of his statement to the discussion on Sati, his comment, along with asides, will take up more space than it deserves. But that is my POV and I agree that doing so will accomodate all viewpoints. On the otherhand, maybe the comment, with aside on tone, will be valuable to convey British attitudes in a nut-shell, as Philip points out. It's a Win-win, no? --] 15:00, 14 August 2005 (UTC) |
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can anyone tell me what is full form of POV/NPOV? |
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: POV is point of view and NPOV is neutral point of view. Misplaced Pages strives to maintain neutral point of view, so that it is a balanced article and not biased toward any ideology or POV. --] 15:43, 15 August 2005 (UTC) |
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::Edited and slightly expanded your change Pranathi. Linked to Sepoy Rebellion rather than witch hunts as I think it more relevant in placing British attitudes in context. ] 10:38, 16 August 2005 (UTC) |
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To put the new wording into context a mention needs to be made of the changes in British moral positions on many social issues both at home and abroad, expressed in such reforms as the ], passed by the UK Parliament in 1833, which abolished slavery throughout the British Empire. Part of this shift was a questioning of the morality of holding an empire by the British ruling classes and the justification that the continuation and expansion of empire was justified by highlighting a perceived moral superiority of British Christian morals over others and the duty imposed on the British to export these morals to the rest of the empire and world. Not that theses British Christian morals were the same as today's humanitarian morals as is seen by such lack of action by the British Government over the ] and the actions of the British Government in the ]. Without a mention of this the change in the British morals the ruling over Suttee seems whimsical. |
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Burning as a punishment had not been practised in Britain in living memory, and had been formally outlawed in in Britain for 40 years before Suttee was abolished by the British in India. The current link is not British specific and does not bring clarity to the issue. Further the taking of life by anyone other than the state after due process of law was also being redefined in Britain during this period. See for example the end of ] as a gentlemanly way to solve disputes. In England anyone who took a life, including suicides were guilty of a crime. At that time and for hundreds of years before anyone who had taken the life of a woman, when not authorised to do so by the state, (including the woman herself) would be guilty of either murder or conspiracy to commit murder, or conspiracy in a suicide. BTW the conspiracy one is a clever catch all which was used to remove the legal defence of self-defence in a duel. ] 12:54, 16 August 2005 (UTC) |
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:I think a re-structure would partly clear this up. "Abolition and continuing incidence" could be split into "Suttee during British rule" and "Continuing incidence." Under the former header the exact context for British involvement and attitudes could be worked out. |
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:Philip, I think you've rightly qualified and questioned certain analogies (suttee = witch hunt = misplaced analogy) but you're making similar mistakes. "Burning as a punishment had not been practised ''in Britain'' in living memory..." What does that matter in terms of India? British authorities didn't regularly launch musket volleys into crowds of Britons protesting, say, early industrial working conditions. Did British authorities regularly fire musket volleys into crowds of Indian peasents protesting land seizure? Of course. Certain middle class (male) British were emancipated by the reform acts? So why a hundred and twenty years until Indians could participate in a real vote? Indians were not treated the same as Britons, which is sort of the point. I'm ''really'' not a fan of post-colonial "any-mention-of-Europeans-''must''-be-bad" historiography but when it ''is'' hypocricy it should be pointed out. Your entire point is based upon law ''in Britain'', which only underscores how ruthless the British were in regards to colonials. ] 22:17, 16 August 2005 (UTC) |
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I am only remaking the point because of the mention in the article of "''British hypocrisy, given their own history of corporal punishment''" which links in (]) under corporal punishment. Of course the British position was hypocritical not because of the different treatment metered out between those in the UK and India, but because the British ruling class perception of their "fair" treatment in India and the reality. ] 23:29, 16 August 2005 (UTC) |
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:The reason I thought that was relevant was because Napier was comparing British customs to Indian (burning of a widow is not a custom, her voluntary immolation is the ''custom''; british ''custom''s are not the current state of affairs but recent historical practices). BTW, this link is specific to Britain and mentions that the last burning was in 1789.. British used their perceived moral superiority as a justification for imperialism. They used Suttee as a rallying point, hugely exaggerating it's prevalance and nature to British public . (pre-colonial European accounts mostly romanticised Suttee.) Missionaries also contributed to over-blowing it to make their case for conversion to govt. I am not trying to justify suttee, which I think is horrid, but I react against the gross misrepresentation of India and Hinduism which continues to this day. Marskell, let me know if I am taking it personally, since you seem to be objective. If so, I will drop the burnings and such.--] 00:33, 17 August 2005 (UTC) |
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::I have changed the link to ] which is I think a fair compromise; a link to 1789 burning exists there. If you have good links or sources Pranathi insert the point about exaggeration in the Brit public imagination; alongside that, Philip or someone can point out that this was indeed a period of changing British attitudes and that criticism of practices like slavery and suttee were honestly felt. ] 12:19, 17 August 2005 (UTC) |
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::: Yes, I think the new link is more appropriate. I will look for links - I recall #s and extent being heavily exagerated in some of the western accounts and read that Sati was used as a rallying point but don't know if there is any article linking the two and consolidating references to prove the same. --] 01:24, 28 August 2005 (UTC) |
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==Terminology - Suttee and Sati == |
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Can revert to the phonetic spelling for this term - in this case it will probably have to be to ''Sati (practice)''? If wikipedia is supposed to be an encyclopaedia, it should try and follow scholarly practice. Apart from that, the spelling suttee is not even the most common term used on the web. ] 17:09, 18 August 2005 (UTC) |
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I agree. --] 01:24, 28 August 2005 (UTC) |
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Title changed as discussed previously, To Sati (practice). ] 19:12, 16 September 2005 (UTC) |
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==Major rewrite== |
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Major rewriting of the article. Some of the comments made here http://en.wikipedia.org/Talk:Hinduism#Tone_of_the_articles applies to this article as well. There is a lot of finding excuses for the prevalance of the practice in here; or claiming that it was less important than it was. |
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Among the things that I've removed or deemphasised are these |
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* the lack of religious and traditional sanction; not really relevant and overemphasised in this context, (what is the point here of lists of widows in the Mahabharata who did not committ Sati) |
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* the idea that the practice was introduced; it is only a possibility, and the fact remains that the practice was only developed to the extent that it was within Hindu India |
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* the idea that it was rare or unknown in many areas, such as the south; this is false; see for instance many references to the practice at Vijayanagara. |
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] 19:15, 16 September 2005 (UTC) |
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Imc, Your changes have improved the quality of the article a lot. I think though the practice section emphasises the forced (homicidal) nature of sati. No doubt, to us, outsiders, it is inconceivable how it could be otherwise. But the 3 links in the page are the only eyewitness accounts I could find - and even being otherwise unsympathetic (unhindered by belief in Sati), they mostly point to voluntary sati. It could have been voluntary for various reasons, social pressures, impulsiveness caused by grief, pressure from greedy relatives for inheritance.. etc. and also once on the pyre, there are accounts of tieing and pushing back but the initial decision was made by the woman. I'm very willing to be convinced otherwise, but am tending to think the homicidal aspect of it has been exaggerated by history and our own conditioning. Here are some comments.. |
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:It is clear however (?? how and what shows that it's clear-any ref?- I suggest alternate wording) that it was not always voluntary. |
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:Old accounts describe a number of different approaches of the widow to her impending death. Some went willingly to it, and sometimes walked into the flames after the fire had been lit. There have been reports that some widows lit their own funeral pyres. Many widows however had to be forced to their deaths (?? references). In some cases the woman was seated on the unlit pyre, and tied in place to prevent fleeing. Sometimes she was drugged (?? references?- some ''assume'' drugs were involved but are there any accounts?). There are records (one account exists - are there more?)) of men with long poles preventing the widow from fleeing the flames. |
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:Royal funerals sometimes have included the deaths of many wives and concubines. A number of examples of these occur in the history of Rajasthan. (I have found 1 incidence on the net - are there more..?) |
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As I said, I have not found support for the phrases above - if anyone can provide them I am more than willing to be convinced.. (was it more of a forced nature in Bengal?)--] 04:30, 3 October 2005 (UTC) |
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::I'm open to the suggestion that any forced aspect of the custom is routinely overemphasised. However, such overemphasis is normal nowadays. For instance, see the edit by ] on 29th September. It seems that it is unacceptable to some to repeat the reports that Roop Kanwar voluntarily went to her death. |
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::For the references, I'm working on another rewrite of this article, in sections. I intend to do this with references included for all arguable sections, and hope to do this within the coming week. Some of the websites I've used are; |
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**http://www.uua.org/uuhs/duub/articles/rajarammohunroy.html |
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**http://www.hindubooks.org/women_in_the_sacredlaws/the_later_lawbooks/page20.htm **and other pages |
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**http://www.vivaaha.org/sati.htm |
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**http://www.ambedkar.org/research/Sati_Was_Started_For_Preserving_Caste.htm |
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**http://www.pucl.org/from-archives/Gender/sati.htm |
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**http://www.indiastar.com/venkat1.html |
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**http://www.csuchico.edu/~cheinz/syllabi/asst001/spring99/parrilla/parr1.htm |
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::Some of the intended sections, the first of which I'm working on now. |
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** Origin and history |
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** Justifications |
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** The practice |
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*** Prevalance |
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*** Symbolic sati |
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***Jauhar (a link) |
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** Abolition |
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** Later views of sati |
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*** Politicisation |
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::] 19:48, 3 October 2005 (UTC) |
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IMC, I don't think the Manu Smriti lauds Sati. In fact, it talks of widow remarraige etc.. I could not find a specific verse referencing Sati on the net. Just a note of warning - many of the references are bogus and need to verified. I would use , etc to verify any verses in manu smriti. On the otherhand, I think some of the Puranas exemplify it.--] 23:24, 9 October 2005 (UTC) |
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: OK Pranathi, fair point, bad rewrite. My references to the Manu smriti were secondhand; Shastri refers to this book, and she does not say it lauds the practice either, just permits it. That paragraph came through unchanged from previous versions of this article. It either needs rewriting or placing elsewhere, after the references to Manu were placed in front of it. Are there other late works that 'laud' the practice? perhaps Madhvacharya? And I'm quoting Shastri on what Madhvacharya says as well here. ] 03:21, 10 October 2005 (UTC) |
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: It was Madhava, not Madhva, and he did praise sati according to Shastri. I've moved the section on 'lauding' sati. ] 03:53, 10 October 2005 (UTC) |
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I don't know of any such late works offhand. But I believe many influential figures denounced it though and that may add to the page - just a passing thought.. --] 20:36, 12 October 2005 (UTC) |
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::The Vishnu Smriti and Brihaspati smriti are part of the puranas also called vishnu purana and brihaspati purana - they are not law books. I will confirm this though from a more knowledagbe source. After a bit of browsing, I understand that these are better stated as ''puranas'' and the Mahabharata/Ramayana as ''Ithihas''. just 2 more cents.. --] 19:18, 16 October 2005 (UTC) |
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::: Imc, I noticed that the intro section simply states that the widow immolates herself. I think it would add value to add a short phrase on reasons, maybe like ''as an act of piety'' or ''to remove sins'' etc. to provide a reason or motivation. What do you think? --] 19:18, 28 October 2005 (UTC) |
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::::I've no objection in principle to adding a reason. But do we have a single unambiguous reason as to why the act was committed? (I'm getting to like short introductions. ) ] 17:56, 30 October 2005 (UTC) |
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:::::I guess not.. I was trying to think of a generic phrase, a cover-all, but couldn't come up with one. I guess reasons will be further down if someone wants .. and we already have a clean, short intro.--] 23:26, 30 October 2005 (UTC) |
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== Complaints about British attitudes. == |
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If you want to rail against the British for their treatment of Indians, isn't it rather ridiculous to do so on the page that describes one of the best things they did for India? Abolishing the murder of widows ranks right up there with building the railroads and wiping out the ] as some of Britain's greatest humanitarian accomplisments. |
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Leave the Brit-bashing to the articles on Ghandi, the Amritsar massacre, and the Indian independence movement. <small>—The preceding ] comment was added by ] (] • ]) 05:31, 30 September 2005 (UTC{{{3|}}})</small><!-- --> |
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::''Please set up an account it is easy to do you can use any name you like and then the comments on the talk page can be signed with a consistent name using four "~" like this:<nowiki>~~~~</nowiki>'' --] 09:49, 4 October 2005 (UTC) |
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: Contrary to what the recent revision by the previous anonymous contributor implied, the British were almost the last non-Indians to consider sati 'beyond the pale'. The Portuguese (Goa etc.), French (Pondicherry etc.), and Dutch (at Chinsurah) had banned it long before in their possesions. Bentinck spent years getting reports and putting off pressure before he banned it in the Bengal presidency. Even then, that was only the Bengal presidency, the other two presidencies followed later with those princely states that still permitted it at the time. |
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::Well, bravo for the Portugese, French and Dutchl, but it doesn't diminish the accomplishment of the British in wiping out this repugnant habit in the majority of the subcontinent. |
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: In any case, I feel also (re. the earlier discussions) that the Napier quote is out of place here and ought to be removed. We could also find lots of similar quotes on Muslim views of the same subject, and they would be equally relevant. The Napier quote fits in the article on Napier, where it now is anyway. It may also fit into an article on British attitudes to India. It ought to be replaced with something more relevant, such as the arguments used by Bentinck, perhaps also Ram Mohan Roy and William Carey, both of whom were much more relevant to the abolition, which I'll try and summarise. (edited again; encoding issues). |
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: ] 09:55, 30 September 2005 (UTC) |
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I think the Napier quote is very relevent for this article as it sums up the British position on suttee and it should remain in the article as the equivelent of a sound-bite in a news article. |
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Further information on Britain and traditions. The upper and middle classes in Britain, who received ] education had for several generation thought the ideas of witchcraft to be none enlightened. In 1736 the established church withdrew from its previous position that there were things that went bump in the night and in the same year this allowed the for the laws against witchcraft were ] in England in 1736 after that date anyone involved in attacks against people who they believed to be a witch could and were tried in court in the usual manner for such assaults not linked to beliefs in witchcaft. ] 09:37, 4 October 2005 (UTC) |
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I'm propose to remove that phrase 'beyond the pale' again, since I don't believe that they did consider it any such thing till it suited them. I've also asked for some more detail as to where Napier said it, in the article on ]. Finally, I propose to leave this quote in, but to move it to a section on outside views of the practice. ] 18:33, 21 October 2005 (UTC) |
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== Mood of the article == |
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I am surprised to see that it seems that this article is written to glorifying and somewhat justify the practice sati!! At the first line itself it should be mentioned that it is a '''barbaric''', '''inhuman''' and an '''act of murder'''. It does not matter whether veda or any other holy book, person, or persons or religion or religious books, whatsoever, support it, '''murder of humanbeing''' can not be justified. It is a '''murderous act'''. It is '''illegal''',too (likely in India, too). |
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:If the article only discusses the bad side of Sati, then it will not be ]. In addition, Sati can be justified, it is good to do in certain circumstances. |
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Although it developed into something quite insane, initially Sati was performed only by women because there were other men interested in them, and were likely to sexually abuse and even rape them. It also shows their devotion to their husband. There are ''some'' justifications, hence they should be mentioned {{DaGizza/Sg}} 07:37, 10 November 2005 (UTC) |
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:: Let me ask you, in all seriousness, ARE YOU INSANE? Are you seriously contending that Sati is good to do "in some circumstances"? What kind of a medieval relic are you? |
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::Whether it was good or bad - you think of it as murderous, the people that did it obviously did not think so -It needs to be presented in a neutral tone. To someone from today's world that utterly cannot comprehend it, since it goes beyond common sense, the justifications portion explains why it was practised the way it was (BTW, practice is only from last millenium). It is not a justification for the modern person. This article is also excellent (thanks to IMC) at sifting facts from fiction since there has been a lot of hype surrounding sati, it's prevalance, justifications etc. Yes, it is illegal and that is mentioned in page.--] 15:39, 10 November 2005 (UTC) |
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::This is utterly absurd. To claim that a crime is Ok just because the criminal doesn't think it's a crime would excuse every atrocity in history. |
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:::Pranathi has said most of what I would say. For a comparison, see the article on ], also an undesirable practice, but also presented in Misplaced Pages in more or less a neutral fashion, as befits an encyclopaedia. ] 17:54, 10 November 2005 (UTC) |
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''' "women because there were other men interested in them, and were likely to sexually abuse and even rape them." ''', well now look at this statistics in USA '''683,000 forcible rapes occur every year, which equals 56,916 per month, 1,871 per day, 78 per hour, and 1.3 per minute. ''', one can imagine in india the figure will be few thousand times more. So do you recomend all the women of India to comit sucide so that onone can rape them !!!--] |
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'''"you think of it as murderous, the people that did it "'''obviously''' did not think so''' !!! Pranathi, First of all what made you do sure that they did not thik '''buring alive a humanbeing''' is not not murder ?? secondly, if it is so then '''obviously''' those '''who did it''' did not consider widows (all girls ?)as human !! --] |
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:You are taking my comments out of context. If you read the article completely you will see what I mean. First of all, most of the time, it was voluntary (eye witness accounts) - so can be best compared to suicide not murder. There are multiple instances where the widow was attempted to be persuaded otherwise. Facts like these are hidden behind the hysteria surrounding the issue. That is maybe another good reason why it needs to remain neutral in tone. |
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: also the figure in india will be more because? ..of the higher population?--] 02:16, 11 November 2005 (UTC) |
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::::Please remember that while "suicide" is a sin in many religions, some religions do not hold the view. Also in some religions that have "reincarnation" or perhaps long afterlife as a part of their teachings, correctly performed suicide is more meaningful than a prolonged life whether it may have more meaning or not. For example, in Shinto, death or rather afterlife is as long, if not longer, and as meaningful as former "life". From this view, suicide merely means a transition from living to the afterlife by one's choice. It's like waking up or sleeping and I'm assuming nobody would say "sleeping" is horrible. |
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::::I will also point out that in many cultures and religions even today, women whose husbands die before them are expected to enter religious services or something similar withdrawing from social life and never marry again. This is, in a way, the "social murder" of women's freedom in life. In many of those cultures and religions, not coincidentally, men do not share the same fate. The underlying philosophy is same here, men are free by death but women are not. If her culture and religion do not consider suicide a spiritual crime, why not end your physical existence and go onto the afterlife perhaps together with your husband? |
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::::I disagree that Sati's supporting philosophy is based on the prevention of sexual abuse. Focuing on it only is not a good way to figure out why sati occures or was created. For example, the rate of domestic abuse (including sexual) is about less than a half of US in Japan and the number of rape adjusted by population is roughly one-tenth in Japan compared to US. I don't think I need to point out that the rate of being murdered for these two crimes is far lower in Japan as well. But the rate of suicide is much higher in Japan than US which is completely improbable if one focuses on suicide as "preventing present and future suffering". Americans should be committing suicide at least 2 times more than Japanese at roughly 120,000 per year but I don't think Americans are killing themselves that fast. I do not have the exact figure at the moment but other countries with high sucide rate did not necessary have high crime rate as well. |
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::::Sexual abuse of widows who did not sati is most likely other way around. They were abused because they were perceived as "abusable" and not because they did not committ sati. For example, too many people even in much of civilised countries will claim that woman who goes out by only herself and raped is more "had it coming" than a woman raped in her home. Why is staying at home "better" if the physical strength (including weapon) of a man can quite easily overcome this obstacle? These two are same, the perception of "abusable" defines mindset of criminals and those around them on which is "worse". --] 10:17, 4 December 2005 (UTC) |
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I added the comments of Barrington Moore about sati because I thought they expose the horror of the practice of sati. Barrington Moore is a very well respected political scientist, and I felt his comments would be a good addition to the article--] 19:51, 22 March 2006 (UTC) |
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== Sati in modern India == |
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The article mentions that about 40 women have performed Sati in modern India. This should be referenced and modern is unclear, from what year does that refer? ] 04:46, 16 November 2005 (UTC) |
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:My guess is since independence, 1947. But again, on searching, I'm not finding any other than the Roop Kanwar case (one site says it is the only recorded incident in the past 100 years). You're right, it needs a reference. --] 02:06, 17 November 2005 (UTC) |
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::I added the figure 40 to the article. I remember seeing the figure somewhere, and while I have a number of reference sources, I did not record the source for this one. I don't have the inclination to go hunting for this figure now, so if anyone feels it necessary to amend the article, feel free. The figure was for the number of claimed sati instances, whether some of these would be better described as 'uncomplicated' suicide seems to be disputed. As to Roop Kanwar being the only recorded incident in the last 100 years, I think this is incorrect. I remember coming across at least one uncontested instance in the 1950s (again reference lost). Yes, 'Modern India' was used to mean independent India, perhaps this should be clarified too, though it is a generally understood convention. ] 19:53, 17 November 2005 (UTC) |
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:I like giving a number, and there is a big difference between 2 and 40. Right now, we could write something about it occuring less than once per year, but that sounds silly. Anyway, this source says that 28 have occured in Rajasthan alone since independence. And here is a source for the number 40 . (BTW, to find things like this, I recomend using google print at books.google.com .) I like the number 28 from ''Re-Orienting Western Feminisms: Women's Diversity in a Postcolonial World'' more than 40 from ''The Rough Guide to India'', if only based on the impressiveness of the title. what does everyone think? ] 20:19, 17 November 2005 (UTC) |
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::I only did a cursory search and one of the few I saw said the Roop Kanwar was the only one. You did a lot of research to put this article in it's current shape, IMC (and bore with my criticism/comments ''sans'' work)- Thanks!!(I meant to say this before but never did). Thanks for the tip, Murphy. I suspect I will end up use the site for --] 02:01, 18 November 2005 (UTC)a lot. |
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== Suttee phonetics == |
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The first line is: ''The practice of '''sati''' (also written unphonetically as '''suttee''')...'' |
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Shouldn't that be "also written '''phonetically''' as suttee"? |
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The dictionary gives {{IPA|'sʌti}} or {{IPA|sʌ'ti}}. Isn't that phonetic according to British ] and American Midwestern (TV) English? |
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:The spelling 'suttee' is phonetic only if you accept the 19th century English orthography as being a phonetic system. I have heard people on the radio pronounce it as in 'sooty'. (There's a certain national British newsreader insists on saying the first vowel in 'Muslim' as in 'must'.) How Indians say sati will in any case differ from the British RP, since the 't' in sati is a flattened dental, as opposed to the alveolar / retroflex consonants British RP and east coast American English. It may be an idea here to put in a reference to ]; this is a Sanskrit derived name, and the spelling ''sati'' is exactly right in this transliteration. Both the IAST article and the associated the National Library at Calcutta romanisation article could do with a pronounciation guide. ] 10:12, 26 November 2005 (UTC) |
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Then wouldn't something like ''"The practice of '''''sati''''' (in English often written '''suttee'''; ]: XXXX) was a Hindu funeral custom in..."'' be preferable? |
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] 15:46, 26 November 2005 (UTC) |
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OK, changed it. ] 17:30, 26 November 2005 (UTC) |
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==Death of Gandhari== |
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I removed the following sentence. |
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:], the wife of king ], also commited sati. () |
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This translation of the Bhagavata Purana suggests that she did committ sati. However, accounts of her death in the Mahabharata, state that she, with her husband, Vidura and Kunti, all died together in a forest fire - no sati, just death. Multiple refs exist as to this, including print books, such as Rajagopalachari's translation of the MB, and many retellings on the web. See e.gs |
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http://www.indolink.com/Kidz/Mbharatpart12.html |
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http://www.boloji.com/hinduism/086.htm |
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I'd like to see another translation of the same text of the Bhagavata Purana. It may be that this text might be another of the justifications for sati, best listed with that verse from the Rig Veda. |
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] 22:04, 11 December 2005 (UTC) |
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== The Extent to which suttee was practiced == |
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I don't think enough weight has been given to the fact that suttee was very rarely practiced and judging by even european numbers, the numbers are probably far less than just regular murders or suicides. Furthermore, the practice was limited to the upperclass, who by all accounts, are a minority in India. the practice was also largely non-existant in the south. India is a big country, and many regions are far more diverse, culturally, linguistically, and religiously than among most European countries. To say that sati was widespread all over india would be to say that in the 20th century, Jews were persecuted by all Europeans, rather than just in Germany and Eastern Europe. |
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There is also the theory that the practice of suttee actually intensified during the muslim invasions and occupations because Widows were frequently targetted for abuse and remarriage by muslims, atleast the early arab conquerors. I am not sure of the veracity of this claim, anyone else with any other valid information? |
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I have not changed anything yet, but I plan to and would like to discuss it first. ] 21:47, 8 February 2006 (UTC) |
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: The article does provide some figures, (those referenced figures that I was able to find) and draws conclusions from them. The article does not say that it was always practised everywhere. But the indications are that it was well known in Vijayanagar, even if not necessarily common there. The claim that it was almost unknown in the south seems to be true only of the period after the 17th century. If you find reliable references, please feel free to add and quote them. ] 21:08, 9 February 2006 (UTC) |
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== Parallel in Scandinavia? == |
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I'm a bit puzzled about the parallel made to Scandinavia. I've heard of a single account from Viking Scandinavia which describes the death of a slave girl on her master's funeral pyre. However, the ritual seems to have been rather different since it involved her having intercourse with her master's kin / friends and her throat was slit before the fire was started, so she wasn't burned alive. The cases are related but I'm not sure the parallel is completely accurate. Thoughts anyone? ] <sup>]</sup> 09:25, 6 April 2006 (UTC) |
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:In the absence of any other references, I'm removing Scandinavia, and also China et.c.. Some of these may be valid entries for the sati article - ritual death of the widow at her husband's funeral, but needs some references. But death of slaves or others is not sati as it is generally understood. ] 22:04, 19 May 2006 (UTC) |
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==Yalla Bhatt's Yallajeeyam== |
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The Yallajeeyam written by Yallabhatt(18 c AD?)contains the detailed manual /practical guide to performing Sati ritual. |
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Here are some passages from 'Yallajeeyam' ('Dharmasastra concerning BrahmaMedha'(Death and Afterwards) Codified by Yalla Bhatta)(The book was a 1992 reprint in Telugu from Machilipatnam) : |
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1.In order to enable the departed soul of the father reach its intended destination(s), his son and others should bathe and worship the Brahmins before making the 'dasa-daana'( ten gifts /presents): |
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1.Heaven(Swargaloka)by donating Cow+Land +Gold |
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2.Apsarasa-loka > Maid-servants(daasi-daanam) |
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3.Reduction in Sins> Sesame seeds |
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4.Pleasures of Indra-loka& |
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Swarga -loka> Bed/Mattress |
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5 Heaven (Swarga-phalam)> Ghee/Clarified Butter |
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6.Moon (Chandraloka)> Cloth |
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7.Heaven(Swargaloka nimittam)> Grains |
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8.Indraloka Pleasures> Bedstead with Mattress |
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2 When a devout wife commits (sati)saha-gamana following her husband's death, she gains 30050000 (30.05 million)years of heaven-time for herself as well as her husband. |
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One who commits sati saves her husband from the vilest of sins he might have commited. |
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Only the Pativrata can commit sati.exceptions are: The pregnant woman, the suckling mother, woman of loose morals. |
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A Pativrata Woman of any varna can commit sati. She should take a bath and clean herself.Separate 'mantras' need not not be recited.The samskara ' being performed for the husband is sufficient for her. |
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The procedure for Brahmamedha is the same as that laid out for Pitr-medha. However, after performing the homa with the 'pareyuvaagamsa'-mantra,complete the ten homas beginning with 'brahmana-eka hota' , say "bhartaasarbhriyamaanah",consult with the dead(pretaanu-mantranam), |
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say 'iyam-naari'(here is your woman), say 'sayaneendrasya'(here she lies down -beside you). |
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The widow should be laid next to her dead husband(she is called the 'preta-patni') |
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say 'suvarnaam gharmam devasyatvaa'and place the vessel made of gold on her two hands, say 'suvarnamgharmam' and place it on her face, say 'brahmendramagnim' -on her eyes, say 'satamniyutah' -the ears, 'suvarnamkosham'- the right nostril, 'indroraajah'- the left nostril, |
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say the sentences beginning 'agniryajurrbhih'and place all the gold vessels on all parts of her body.All other remain vessels of gold should be placed on the pyre... say "mainamagne jyotishateebhih" and set the pyre on fire. |
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conclude with 'sooryamtechakshuh','ajobhagah asahota' pour clarified butter 'Yaetasya 'prayasaayaswaahaa' pour more oil, follow the mantras:'praketunaa harigim harantam','asmanwateeh'-'apyaayasya' jump the pits,'dwayam tamasaspari taranirviswa' for the sun to settle, bathe after saying-'dhaatutustwa'.The rest of the procedure is as per 'pitr-medha'-rituals . |
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:I removed the above passage which had been inserted into the main article. The passage appears to be the same that was quoted on the Indology Yahoo news group last November and would probably be better posted as a simple reference. Given that the source appears to be a Telugu book to which I cannot find any other references, I am replacing it with a simple reference to the Indology posting. (I'm having trouble formatting it in the article.) ] 21:49, 15 May 2006 (UTC) |
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Dear IMC, I give below the complete details of the book: |
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'Yallajeeyam:-Sa-prayoga Dharma Sastram' Translated from Sanskrit by Late Chall LaxmiNrusimha (Narasimha)Sastri, edited by Vempati Kutumbayya Sastri.Published by Challa Nageswara Sastri for |
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Sri Aryananda Mudraksharasala, Bandaru-Bachupeta(Present day Machilipatnam in the Krishna District of Andhra Pradesh)PIN 521 001.Year 1992 |
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The chapter that was posted is actually called: 'Brahmamedhasangrahakaarikah'. |
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Yalla-ji(Yallajee?) codified the Manual in Sanskrit in 18CAD(?) for the use of the followers of Apasthambha school towards performing 'prayaschitta'(penance) (in the event of death). |
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The book in telugu contains the Sanskrit transliteration of the original text with commentary/translation in telugu.The book runs into 393 pages. |
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If you have read 'The Perfect Wife'(Trayambakayajvan's code of conduct for women in 18th CAD ( in Tanjore),then 'Yalljeeyam' is one such text. The text throws several curious facts extant in those days. One chapter is on the rituals to be followed when a pregnant woman dies. Where the woman died with a nine month old fetus in her belly, then the text calls upon the husband and her relatives to cut open the belly, rescue the baby , wash it first and feed it and put it in the care of another woman who is herself a lactating mother . |
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] 18:48, 19 May 2006 (UTC)harappa |
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:Thanks. I've added a little bit to the reference. This is probably sufficient in this situation, the article is already longer than recommended. ] 22:10, 19 May 2006 (UTC) |
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==Devanagari== |
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The Sanskrit word ''satī'' in Devanagari is '''सती'''. Anyone who wants to add it, just cut & paste. ] 01:40, 25 September 2006 (UTC) |
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== Weasel Words == |
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"common understanding that many widows" |
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== Simple Any1 == |
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Though this probably seems stupid compared to all of the other arguments, a Simple English would come in handy. Just kinda throwin it out there |
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== Problem Website == |
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Just so that everyone knows, if anything in this article happens to have a chance to be cited from www.hindunet.org/wwwboard/mandir_manthan/messages/381.html |
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Then please remove material from that site. The cite is made from someone who probably isnt Hindu, and is also probably insecure. Nearly all of the information from that cite is opinion. If there isnt any connection between the two definitions, then just dicount this comment.] 23:18, 16 October 2006 (UTC) |
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==Requested move== |
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<div class="boilerplate" style="background-color: #efe; margin: 2em 0 0 0; padding: 0 10px 0 10px; border: 1px dotted #aaa;"><!-- Template:polltop --> |
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:''The following discussion is an archived debate of the {{{type|proposal}}}. <font color="red">'''Please do not modify it.'''</font> Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section. '' |
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{{{result|The result of the debate was}}} '''No move'''. ]<span style="font-size:70%;">]</span> 10:38, 30 November 2006 (UTC) |
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---- |
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] → ''']''' — Proper title per ]. '''Suttee''' is unambiguous and is used major dictionaries and encyclopedias in Commonwealth and American English including Britannica, Columbia, Encarta, and others (and even ]). |
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===Survey=== |
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Add "* Support" or "* Oppose" followed by a brief explanation, then sign your opinion with <nowiki>~~~~</nowiki> |
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*'''Support''' as nominator. — <span style="border:1px solid blue;padding:1px;">]</span> 05:48, 21 November 2006 (UTC) |
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*<s>'''Weak oppose'''</s> '''Strong oppose'''. First time I see "sutee", the A of Hindu goddess ''Sati'' is open, not closed like in ''sutee'' (''satee'' would be phonetically valid in English but has no precedent). --] 02:58, 25 November 2006 (UTC) |
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*'''Strong oppose'''. As the person partly responsible for the current name. Further reasons to be posted under discussion. ] 17:50, 25 November 2006 (UTC) |
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*'''Strong Oppose.''' ] states: "Articles that focus on a topic specific to a particular English-speaking country should generally conform to the usage and spelling of that country." If ''Sati'' then is the preferred Indian English use of the term, methinks it trumps the preferred usage in Peoria or Woking. --]|<sup><font color="blue">]</font></sup> 16:18, 27 November 2006 (UTC) |
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===Discussion=== |
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'''Reasons for keeping the spelling 'sati'''' - Modern Indian usage is largely based on the phonetic (and therefore better) spelling, sati, not suttee. See for instance, the spelling in |
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*recent laws concerning it - a quick search brings up and , |
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*references on other websites, e.g. , (these two articles are at the top of Google searches, and both articles predate Misplaced Pages) |
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*usage in modern Indian news reports of recent incidents. For an example of one of the best reported recent incidents, search for 'sati + Deorala' vs. 'suttee + Deorala'. Sati beats suttee by about 9-1. |
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With regard to the references to Encarta, Brittanica, et.c. to support the name suttee; note that for all these (necessarily) it is a minor topic, and the spelling is likely to be conserved in this situation. For Brittanica in particular, the usage has survived since at least the 1911 version . This 1911 encyclopaedia was used to seed a fair bit of Misplaced Pages's content, but the usage and spelling of many of the names and terms in it has been modernised wherever necessary. It should take place here as well. |
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] 18:34, 25 November 2006 (UTC) |
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::Good arguments. When widespread English usage changes to ''sati'' then the article title will be appropriate. As it is now, seen in the examples above, almost all encyclopedic sources still use "suttee" (nice try with the 1911 but those I cited above are current). |
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::I'm not sure what is meant by ''"Modern Indian usage is largely based on the phonetic (and therefore better) spelling, sati, not suttee"''. Is it phonetically correct in English or Indian languages? Suttee is an English word and should be treated as such. It is pronounced differently in Scotland, England, and North America, something not reflected in ''sati''. In that sense, ''sati'' is less phonetic in English. Furthermore, if phonteic is ''"therefore better"'' then Misplaced Pages should be written entirely in ]. — <span style="border:1px solid blue;padding:1px;">]</span> 08:02, 26 November 2006 (UTC) |
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:::I'd say it's "phonetically correct" in Latin (latin alphabet has a rather direct correlation between phonemes and letters, unlike English). It also approximates better the Indian (Hindi?) version in Latin alphabet: ''Satī''. |
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:::Sati is an Indian term (the name of a goddess) and its versions in English/Latin alphabet (either sati or sutee or whatever) are just transcriptions. English has very strange phonetic correlations and for what I know you can perfectly read near identically ''sati'' and ''sutee'' and even ''sate'' and ''suti'', if you just know how they are supposed to be read. |
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:::One important thing is probably that the first vowel is A like in "cat" and not U like "cut", hence the the importance of keeping the ''sati'' trascription. --] 08:46, 26 November 2006 (UTC) |
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::::I disagree that "suttee" is a transcription. It may have been in the 19th century but it is now an English word in its own right (read the sources given above). ] says use the most common English form for article titles as we do with ], ], ], ], ]/], etc., all words of Indian origin. |
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::::As far as indicating the correct pronunciation, that can be done in the first line without using an incorrect article name. (And for North American speakers, ''sati'' would likely be pronounced {{IPA|'sɑtʰɪ}}, not {{IPA|sa'ti}}.) — <span style="border:1px solid blue;padding:1px;">]</span> 10:25, 26 November 2006 (UTC) |
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:::::As I see it, imposing ''sutee'' spelling is a matter of ethnocentrism. After all India is the largest country of the World that has English as official language. You are focusing in England and the USA but India alone has more English speakers that all the UK (and close to the USA). I believe their opinion does matter as, after all. It is a lineal transcription of a Sanskrit term, that is also the name of a goddess, and that justifies pretty well in my judgement that the Indian spelling is kept. |
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:::::Furthermore: sati does not exist in England or any other country that has English as primary language, such as the USA, Canada or Australia. It is an Indian ethnical particularity. --] 22:45, 26 November 2006 (UTC) |
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::::::And those are the best arguments for ''sati''. However, the number of English native or daily speakers outside of India (Anglo-Saxon world plus Philippines, SE Asia, Africa) is greater than inside. Theoretically, English Misplaced Pages users are drawn not only from Anglo-Saxon world and South Asia but other areas as well. Suttee is an Indian ethnic particularity and this is an even better case (relative importance is critical) but that the overwhelming usage in English is still "suttee" still seems to outweigh it. — <span style="border:1px solid blue;padding:1px;">]</span> 01:47, 27 November 2006 (UTC) |
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:::::::It is still an Indian practice, not an English or Australian one. When talking about English practices such as ] or the ] logically an English spelling should be used but when dealing an Indian one the Indian English spelling has precedence. It's elementary. |
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:::::::Anyhow, I am not Indian and it's the first time I read ''sutee'', so it's surely not so common. It's not comparable to curry or bungalow, items that have been totally trasfered not just to the Anglosphere but also elsewhere. Nobody in England or Australia practices sati but they may live in a bungalow or spice their meals with curry. This is more like ], ] or ]. |
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:::::::I don't expect to convince you. It is obvious that you have your own ethnocentric opinion very clear but you should not try to impose it to the ] just because they have less internet connections per capita. --] 04:16, 27 November 2006 (UTC) |
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::::::::I admitted it was a close call but your own examples run counter to your position on this article. ] should be at ] and ] at ] while ] ('']''), etc. remain under their English spellings. And it can hardly be considered ethnocentric to expect that English language Misplaced Pages articles have English titles (it is recommended at ]) any more than it is for Tamil Misplaced Pages to have Tamil titles. The ethnocentrism lies in telling the vast majority of the English-speaking world that using an English word is somehow not appropriate because it is not an exact transliteration of its progenitor. If you have never seen "suttee," I suggest '''any''' English dictionary, the cited links above, or maybe reading Rudyard Kipling's poem, "The Last Suttee." — <span style="border:1px solid blue;padding:1px;">]</span> 08:33, 27 November 2006 (UTC) |
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:''The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. <font color="red">'''Please do not modify it.'''</font> Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.</div><!-- Template:pollbottom --> |
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==Apologias== |
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A number of explanations and apologias for the practice have been introduced recently by some users. Most of these are in a relevant section; Argument that sati was an act of self defence. However, on 11 Dec 2006, this sentence was in the introductory section, where different users keep changing it. |
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“It was practiced most strongly where the Hindus were constantly under attack by Islamists.” This was changed from the previous, still questionable statement, that said Muslims, rather than Islamists. |
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Statements as this should not be in the introduction, which have been, and should be restricted to definitions of the term, not reasons for the practice. Furthermore, either version of this statement is factually incorrect, according to the evidence quoted so far. As far as we know from available figures, sati was practised most extensively in Bengal and Bihar in the twilight of Mughal rule there, and especially during the early stages of Company rule there. ] (as the term is understood now) has not been a factor anywhere till the emergence of Salafi and Deobandi traditions in more recent times. I have removed it. |
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] 20:40, 11 December 2006 (UTC) |
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Of course Islamism was the cause of the Sati practice. '''Leave Hindu history to be told by Hindus.''' After the ] Hindus will stand up against blasphemy! The Practice of sati even spread to the South as the Hindus were attacked by Islamists, otherwise it was unheard of in the South. |
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"''] (as the term is understood now) has not been a factor anywhere till the emergence of Salafi and Deobandi traditions in more recent times.''" Actually Islamism means Islamic militancy and the first Islamic invaders were Islamists who were disgracing their religion Islam by the attrocities they committed. |
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- ] |
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There is a lot of unsourced material in this section. There are also speculative and/or subjective statements, such as "...unless immediate countermeasures are taken at many levels, the prevalence of Sati in these locations is likely to continue and may even occur more frequently," and "The society viewed it as an honour to deny a woman her rights because she is "dependant" on her husband..."
Someone should either clean up this section or removed the unsourced material. If nothing happens and no one replies here, I will delete the unsourced material myself in a few days. Indigotwelve (talk) 20:24, 16 June 2023 (UTC)
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