| Revision as of 20:21, 9 January 2007 editRaul654 (talk | contribs)70,896 edits {{featured}}← Previous edit |
Latest revision as of 16:18, 12 April 2024 edit undoClueBot III (talk | contribs)Bots1,375,717 editsm Archiving 1 discussion to Talk:Immune system/Archive 2. (BOT) |
| (437 intermediate revisions by more than 100 users not shown) |
| Line 1: |
Line 1: |
|
{{featured}} |
|
{{Talk header}} |
|
|
{{Article history |
|
{{Wikiproject MCB|class=FA|importance=top}} |
|
|
|
|action1=PR |
|
{{oldpeerreview}} |
|
|
|
|action1date= 2006-11-06 |
|
{{Archive box|]}} |
|
|
|
|action1link=Misplaced Pages:Peer review/Immune system/archive2 |
|
|
|action1result=Reviewed |
|
|
|action1oldid= 85681709 |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|action2=FAC |
|
== Article clean up and expansion == |
|
|
|
|action2date=20:17, 9 January 2007 |
|
|
|action2link=Misplaced Pages:Featured article candidates/Immune system |
|
|
|action2result=promoted |
|
|
|action2oldid=99502292 |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|currentstatus=FA |
|
As I promised above, I have cleaned up this article ('''a lot'''). I expanded some sections that needed it, and removed some information appeared to be copy-and-pasted from the "main articles" on various subjects. |
|
|
|
|maindate=March 1, 2007 |
|
|
|maindate2=December 30, 2020 |
|
|
}} |
|
|
{{WikiProject banner shell|collapsed=yes|class=FA|vital=yes|1= |
|
|
{{WikiProject Molecular Biology|MCB=yes |MCB-importance=top}} |
|
|
{{WikiProject Anatomy|importance=top |field=systems}} |
|
|
{{WikiProject Animal anatomy|importance=top}} |
|
|
{{WikiProject Systems|importance=mid |field=Systems}} |
|
|
}} |
|
|
{{banner holder|collapsed=yes| |
|
|
{{Press |
|
|
| subject = article |
|
|
| author = ] |
|
|
| title = Yo contengo multitudes. {{In lang|en}} I Contain Multitudes ISBN 978-84-9992-766-4, page 106 |
|
|
| org = PenguinRandom House Grupo Editorial, S.A.U. |
|
|
| url = https://www.penguinrandomhouse.com/books/579529/yo-contengo-multitudes-los-microbios-que-nos-habitan-y-una-mayor-vision-de-la-v-ida--i-contain-multitudes-the-microbes-within-us-and-a-grander-view-of-life-by-ed-yong/9788499927664/ |
|
|
| date = September 2017 |
|
|
| quote = Mientras escribo esto, Misplaced Pages todavía define el sistema inmunitario como «un sistema de estructuras y procesos biológicos dentro de un organismo que protege contra la enfermedad». Sin embargo, para muchos científicos, la protección contra los patógenos es solo una ventaja adicional. La función principal del sistema inmunitario es administrar nuestras relaciones con los microbios residentes en nosotros. |
|
|
| archiveurl = |
|
|
| archivedate = |
|
|
| accessdate = 29 December 2018 |
|
|
}} |
|
|
{{Backwardscopy |
|
|
|author = Miller, F. P., Vandome, A. F., & McBrewster, J. |
|
|
|year = 2010 |
|
|
|title = Fish diseases and parasites: Disease, parasitism, pathogen, epidermis (skin), microorganism, inflammation, white blood cell, immune system, vaccine, aquaculture, aquarium fish |
|
|
|org = Alphascript Publishing |
|
|
|comments = {{OCLC|688486716}}, {{ISBN|9786130279011}}. |
|
|
|author2 = Miller, F. P., Vandome, A. F., & McBrewster, J. |
|
|
|year2 = 2009 |
|
|
|title2 = Introduction to viruses: Introduction to genetics, viral life cycle, viral entry, plant pathology, bacteriophage, Iinate immune system, immune system, vaccination, antiviral drug, rotavirus, norovirus |
|
|
|org2 = Alphascript Publishing |
|
|
|comments2 = {{OCLC|668397909}}, {{ISBN|9786130232382}}. |
|
|
|bot=LivingBot |
|
|
}} |
|
|
}} |
|
|
{{User:ClueBot III/ArchiveThis |
|
|
| age=2160 |
|
|
| archiveprefix=Talk:Immune system/Archive |
|
|
| numberstart=1 |
|
|
| maxarchsize=75000 |
|
|
| header={{Automatic archive navigator}} |
|
|
| minkeepthreads=5 |
|
|
| minarchthreads=1 |
|
|
| format= %%i |
|
|
}} |
|
|
|
|
|
|
== Physical excercise == |
|
This article DOES need some pictures, I think some of the sections are just too complicated to explain without diagrams. I will see if I can find some, or else just make them. Specifically, I think that diagrams for the following sections would help emmensly: |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
The following is from my Talk Page: |
|
*Antigen presentation |
|
|
|
I am planning to (at least partially) tackle the ] article, which is in a rather abyssmal state. I noticed the amount of coverage medical sources have regarding the ], and upon glossing over ], there weren't any mentions of exercise, physical activity etc., which is very surprising. Wouldn't it be wise to have a section dedicated to the effects of exercise, perhaps below the "Sleep and rest" section? I've found some great systematic reviews on the topic, and a few umbrella reviews mentioning it. I'd be happy to help out with creating such a section. Any thoughts? Cheers - ] (]) 09:57, 9 December 2022 (UTC) |
|
*CD8 and CD4 Activation |
|
|
|
:Hi, yes you are right. It is a serious omission. May I suggest we collaborate on a section? ] (]) 10:06, 9 December 2022 (UTC) |
|
*Th1 vs Th2 |
|
|
|
::Excellent! I'm very busy today but I have plenty of time this weekend. I'll give you a notice when I'm ready! Search wherever you want and you'll stumble upon some great findings on this topic; Cochrane and PubMed seems like a good start, but I'm sure the refs you already used in ] are also useful. ] (]) 10:22, 9 December 2022 (UTC) |
|
*B cell Activation |
|
|
|
:::I'm looking forward to a fruitful collaboration. ] (]) 10:29, 9 December 2022 (UTC) |
|
Also it would be nice if we could include pictures of the various types of innate cells. |
|
|
|
::::Hello again! I've picked a few sources ], mostly from (Exercize Immunology Review). I was wondering what the structure of such a section should be. Do you think we should have a paragraph explaining the technical microscopic changes and a paragraph below for its studied effects on infections, inflammation, cancer, etc.? ] (]) 09:18, 11 December 2022 (UTC) |
|
|
:::::Hi, it's best if we only use reviews as these are compliant with ]. From a quick glance , I think I spotted some primary studies. Perhaps we should move our conversation to the article's Talk Page? That way others can pitch in. With regard to the section's structure, I suggest the heading "Effect of physical excercise" ( I think the article uses UK English, but I will have to check), followed by a section on the effects on innate immunity, one on adaptive immunity and, as you said, effects on disease course (but we must avoid primary studies). Thoughts? Best regards, ] (]) 11:32, 11 December 2022 (UTC) |
|
|
::::::Of course. I'll start working on its medical effects, but I would appreciate if you could help with innate/adaptive immunity as my knowledge in that topic is nowhere near as vast as an expert like yours. If I have any questions I'll use the article talk page from now on. By the way, regarding the sources, I was surprised when you said some were primary. I assume it's because it doesn't have the blue highlight with the word "review" on it (like one)? The title of such sources contain the word "review", otherwise I wouldn't use them. All MEDRS sources I use are filtered by review, systematic review, or meta analysis. I might be missing something, though, and I'd be happy if you could correct me. Cheers - ] (]) 13:47, 11 December 2022 (UTC) |
|
|
::::::::I hadn't looked at them closely. ] (]) 14:57, 11 December 2022 (UTC) |
|
|
|
|
|
|
I have started the new section.] (]) 13:43, 12 December 2022 (UTC) |
|
If anyone sees/has/can make any of these please post 'em!!--] 22:34, 30 August 2006 (UTC) |
|
|
|
|
|
|
== Flow of information == |
|
== ] == |
|
|
|
|
|
|
Can we add a mention in this article of the ]--or create an article for this? ] (]) 02:34, 29 January 2023 (UTC) |
|
As this article is about the immune system, and "the skin is the first line of difense", wouldn't it make sense to start off with the skin section? Nothing in the skin section depends on the information in the lymph section, so I think the lymph section should be either removed or deleted. ] 07:28, 7 September 2006 (UTC) |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
== Total mass, number, and distribution of immune cells in the human bod == |
|
== Hypersensitivity section == |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
While the recently added Sender et al. citation was removed for lack of context, the quantitative estimates of the immune system in that paper warrant brief mention to provide readers intuitive insight. Specifically, the cited paper calculates the human immune system contains approximately 1.8 trillion cells, dwarfing the ~100 billion neurons in the brain nearly 15-fold. Additionally, at an estimated 1.2 kg, the immune system weighs 3-5 times more than an average adult heart (250-350 grams). As these facts illustrate the immune system's considerable magnitude relative to other organs, they impart useful perspective for general readers. Thus a pared down summary contextualizing these cell count and weight comparisons could suitably supplement the article, without diving into excessive detail tangential to the core content. ] (]) 14:10, 4 November 2023 (UTC) |
|
"These reactions are mediated by T cells, monocytes and macrophages." Monocytes and macrophages are the same thing, they're called monocytes when they're in the blood, macrophages when they're in certain tissues, pulmonary macrophages in the lung, Langerhans cells in skin, Kupfer cells in the liver etc. Therefore, it should not be listed twice as both monocytes and macrophages.--] 17:47, 12 November 2006 (UTC) |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
:It was an interesting paper but as it is a primary source it not ] compliant. We need to wait for this to be discussed in a review article in an established journal. ] (]) 14:53, 4 November 2023 (UTC) |
|
== removal of "diabetes link" == |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
== Claims made without evidence == |
|
I removed the following from the article for a number of reasons: |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
There are about 20 claims made with out evidence in the first two paragraphs. |
|
In December 2006 researchers from Toronto Hospital for Sick Children showed in mice a link between Type 1 diabetes and both the Immune and Nervous systems. Lack of sensory (pain-related) nerves seemed to provoke an immune response in the insulin-producing cells.<ref>{{cite news | title=Canadian scientists reverse diabetes in mice | url=http://www.cbc.ca/canada/calgary/story/2006/12/14/diabetes-neuron.html | date=December 15, 2006 | publisher=] | accessdate=2006-12-17}}</ref> |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
It would be useful to include specific experiments that have been run that led to these assumptions. ] (]) 22:05, 7 March 2024 (UTC) |
|
Reasons for removal: |
|
|
# This is about ''one'' article about ''one'' aspect of ''one'' autoimmune disease (which are given only brief mention in this article, owing to the existence of the article ] where specifics are addressed), and it's inclusion here places ] on the findings. |
|
|
# The addition, as written, seems to imply that a link between the Immune system and T1D was established just last week, when in reality this connection was made many, many years ago (IIRC in the early 1970's). Really the authors show a link between a neuronal receptor and the development of diabetes, they don't really say (at least in the abstract) ''how'' the immune system is involved. |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
:See ]. As the top paragraphs are a summary of the article, citations are often redundant as the statements are repeated with citations in he article. ] (]) 07:05, 8 March 2024 (UTC) |
|
As a note: The actual seems to state a conclusion that is exactly opposite of what was added. Namely that "...Eliminating these neurons in diabetes-prone NOD mice prevents insulitis and diabetes, despite systemic persistence of pathogenic T cell pools." i.e. "Lack of sensory (pain-related) nerves seemed to '''prevent''' an immune response in the insulin-producing cells".--] 23:06, 18 December 2006 (UTC) |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
== Who coined the term? When did it come into popular use? == |
|
== Too narrow == |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
"Immunity" and "immune" come from the latin "immunis" meaning "free from/exempt from taxes (in Roman times)". |
|
This article is either too narrow or should acknowledge that it isn't all-encompassing. It doesn't mention that it is only talking about humans, and the second paragraph says that it defends us against bacteria and viruses, when in fact is also fights protists, fungi, and possibly animals (I'm not sure-- can we fight worms?) ] 00:08, 19 December 2006 (UTC) |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
The very outset of this article states "immunity is the state of being insusceptible or resistant to a noxious agent or process". "Immune" does not mean "resistant" it means "free from" or "exempt from". There is basically a downwards spiral on wikipedia describing "Immune" "immunity" "immunize" in increasingly weaker terms such as "fortify", "resistant", or "protect". Somewhere it should be explained how there came to be this disconnect in meaning between "immune system" or "immunity" in the medical sense meaning "protect" or "resistant to" rather than "free from" or "exempt from" which is the plain English meaning of "immune". ] (]) 18:31, 7 April 2024 (UTC) |
|
:One gets specifically an elevation in the ] subtype of ] with parasitic or worm infestations. Not sure it actual acheives much though ] <sup> ] </sup> 01:45, 19 December 2006 (UTC) |
|
|
|
|
|
==Chg section heading== |
|
|
It's not optimal to have a section heading called "Overview" - unencyclopedic - can that section be re-named, or the content be merged to section names more in line with those mentioned at ] ? ] (]) 00:15, 2 January 2007 (UTC) |
|
|
::Section renamed. ] 01:04, 2 January 2007 (UTC) |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
==Cellular barriers?== |
|
|
Not sure this last paragraph belongs under this subheading - maybe a separate subheading for immune evasion is needed?? |
|
|
|
|
|
:''The barriers established by innate immune system are brought into play at the earliest stages of infection and provide immediate defense against colonization. Many pathogens, however, have developed strategies that allow them to elude or escape from innate immune control. These evasion strategies include intracellular replication, such as in Salmonella or a protective capsule that prevents lysis by complement, as in Mycobacterium tuberculosis.'' |
|
|
|
|
|
] 01:54, 2 January 2007 (UTC) |
|
|
|
|
|
==Lympho/Leukocytes and an extra!== |
|
|
I have never been known for there to be a difference between these too terms, and I have always used them interchangeably. This article is states that lymphocytes are only involved in specific immunity and leukocytes are only involved in innate immunity - but is this right? The article for leukocytes isn't clear about this either. I would all white blood cells to be leukocytes (by at least name sake only) - There two big classes for these cells is between the myeloid lineage and the lymphoid lineage - these are closer to the innate:specific separation, respectivly, but I wouldn't be so happy to accept a that separation as black and white. For instance there are dendritic cells in both lineages (these are potent members of specific immunity), natural killer cells are lympoid but are involvedwith innate immunity and mast cells are myeloid but are mediated specifically by IgE molecules (I think these would be categorized as specific immunity, its all semantics!). And one last thing! In the same section it states that only jawed vertebrae have a specific immune system - but there was an interesting article in Nature (sorry I don't have the citation) that showed that ]s have a special type on immune system that is not related to mammalian antibodies and such; this is something that might be interesting to note. So I hope this rambling helps, I'm gonna keep reading the article! ]] 06:14, 2 January 2007 (UTC) |
|
|
|
|
|
:The word ] refers to only the small white blood cells with the large round nucleus, and includes ]s, ]s and ]s. The word ], however, includes all the white blood cells - all lymphocytes are leukocytes, but not all leukocytes are lymphocytes! |
|
|
:Oh yeah, and I agree with the inclusion of the ] VLR molecules (Key authors = Pancer and Cooper) although they haven't been functionally characterized yet - maybe just a wee mention?] 07:19, 2 January 2007 (UTC) |
|
|
|
|
|
==Immune system and tumors== |
|
|
This article is mainly focussing on the elimination of foreign pathogens, but doesn't really mention the other role the immune system plays, in keeping mutated/tumor cells at bay. Anyway of including this without it being too confusing? ] 22:18, 2 January 2007 (UTC) |
|
|
:Although the subject could have a lengthy page of its own, here is a nice simple bit about ] that we could model without getting to complicated? What are your thoughts on including a bit about antigen receptor diversity/generation? There is a bit about this in the ] article, but I don't know if it complicates things too much.--] 17:00, 4 January 2007 (UTC) |
|
|
::Okay, I added a little info about the tumor regulation. Hoping some fresh eyes will take a look and get it to meet the standard of the rest of the article. Then, I thought about how to simply describe the complex processes of generating antigen receptor diversity. What about something along the lines..... |
|
|
''"During the maturation processes of T and B cells, they rearrange and randomly construct the genes for their antigen receptors so that each distinct cell generates its own unique receptor. This is how the populations of B and T cells possess a wide array of receptors capable of recognizing many different pathogens."'' |
|
|
.....do you think it makes any sense to anyone without an immunology background?? ] 02:51, 7 January 2007 (UTC) |
|
|
::Probably not, it maybe that that concept is just too complex for this article, and I have tried out several "simple" ways of explaining it in my head, it always comes out sounding too "science geeky". The concept is covered in the adaptive article though. |
|
|
::I have done a bit of copy edit on the tumor section (sorry 'bout the edit conflict Tim). I have a question though. Did you mean to put: |
|
|
"One example is an enzyme called tyrosinase that, when overexpressed, transforms certain skin cells (e.g. melanocytes) into tumors called melanomas. " |
|
|
::.... '''before''' the "altered self" bit, or am I reading something wrong?--] 03:40, 7 January 2007 (UTC) |
|
|
:::Yep, the tyrosine example belongs with the overexpression/elavated expression part, not the "altered self" part. Thanks to you and Tim for taking a look and improving the section! ] 04:28, 7 January 2007 (UTC) |
|
|
::::there....moved it to where it should be! ] 04:33, 7 January 2007 (UTC) |
|
|
|
|
|
==Hormonal regulation of the immune system?== |
|
|
|
|
|
Hi all, the article is looking pretty good already — well done, all! |
|
|
|
|
|
I'm pretty sure that the immune system responds to hormonal signals, and it'd be nice if there were some discussion of that in the article. Unfortunately, I'm pretty sick now and don't have access to a library anyway, so I can't help out too much. :( But I do recall that there can be direct effects on the immune system and indirect effects, e.g., by changing the relative microbial populations in the vaginal tract. |
|
|
|
|
|
Good luck, ] 22:50, 2 January 2007 (UTC) |
|
|
|
|
|
==Cell markers== |
|
|
Okay, so I removed the term 'markers' from the phrase 'MHC markers' and replaced it with the conventional 'MHC molecules'. In cell biology, scientists use the term ''marker'' to describe a protein expressed on the surface of a cell that can be used to help distinguish that particular cell. This is because each different type of cell carries a distinct combination of cell surface proteins - these are often receptors, and often denoted with a ] prefix. Here's a common example; within the ]s, there are helper and cytotoxic subtypes. They function differently, and they can be distinguished from other ]s and each other based on their cell surface molecules or markers. All T cells can be recognized by a marker called ] (part of the ]) that is only expressed on T cells; all helper T cells have CD3 and ] markers, and all cytotoxic T cells have CD3 and ] markers. It can get more complex, but hopefully this explains things simply. MHC molecules are not typically used as markers. MHC class I molecules, for instance, tend to be expressed on all cell types so would be a poor candidate for cell recognition! Phew...hope this is of help!!! ] 04:23, 6 January 2007 (UTC) |
|
|
::Yep, you are right. I probably put that in there because '''I''' use MHC class I and II as "markers", (generally to determine/confirm DC maturation state, in conjunction with other, more specific "markers") and thus that is how I think of them. Thanks for your careful reading, good catch.--] 22:30, 6 January 2007 (UTC) |
|
The following is from my Talk Page:
I am planning to (at least partially) tackle the exercise article, which is in a rather abyssmal state. I noticed the amount of coverage medical sources have regarding the immune system and exercise, and upon glossing over immune system, there weren't any mentions of exercise, physical activity etc., which is very surprising. Wouldn't it be wise to have a section dedicated to the effects of exercise, perhaps below the "Sleep and rest" section? I've found some great systematic reviews on the topic, and a few umbrella reviews mentioning it. I'd be happy to help out with creating such a section. Any thoughts? Cheers - Wretchskull (talk) 09:57, 9 December 2022 (UTC)
While the recently added Sender et al. citation was removed for lack of context, the quantitative estimates of the immune system in that paper warrant brief mention to provide readers intuitive insight. Specifically, the cited paper calculates the human immune system contains approximately 1.8 trillion cells, dwarfing the ~100 billion neurons in the brain nearly 15-fold. Additionally, at an estimated 1.2 kg, the immune system weighs 3-5 times more than an average adult heart (250-350 grams). As these facts illustrate the immune system's considerable magnitude relative to other organs, they impart useful perspective for general readers. Thus a pared down summary contextualizing these cell count and weight comparisons could suitably supplement the article, without diving into excessive detail tangential to the core content. LittleHow (talk) 14:10, 4 November 2023 (UTC)
"Immunity" and "immune" come from the latin "immunis" meaning "free from/exempt from taxes (in Roman times)".
The very outset of this article states "immunity is the state of being insusceptible or resistant to a noxious agent or process". "Immune" does not mean "resistant" it means "free from" or "exempt from". There is basically a downwards spiral on wikipedia describing "Immune" "immunity" "immunize" in increasingly weaker terms such as "fortify", "resistant", or "protect". Somewhere it should be explained how there came to be this disconnect in meaning between "immune system" or "immunity" in the medical sense meaning "protect" or "resistant to" rather than "free from" or "exempt from" which is the plain English meaning of "immune". 27.32.165.42 (talk) 18:31, 7 April 2024 (UTC)
level-3 vital article is rated FA-class on Misplaced Pages's content assessment scale.
