Initiated by Interstellarity at 19:46, 23 December 2020 (UTC)

Case or decision affected

American politics 2 arbitration case (t) (ev / t) (w / t) (pd / t)

Clauses to which an amendment is requested

1. Discretionary sanctions (1932 cutoff)

List of any users involved or directly affected, and confirmation that all are aware of the request

• Interstellarity (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) (initiator)

Information about amendment request

• Discretionary sanctions (1932 cutoff)

• Change the sanctions to affect American politics to a later date. I recommend 1944, but I am open to other interpretations.

Statement by Interstellarity

It's been over five years since the ammendment to set sanctions on post-1932 American politics went in place. When we look at historical events from a distant future, we can get a better idea on how the event affected history. I am not requesting to repeal these sanctions, I am requesting that the sanction be lowered to something like 1944. It is easier to write an article on a president such as George Washington and Abraham Lincoln then someone like Donald Trump or Joe Biden because the news can be too biased to get the big picture. I imagine the news was also biased back then, but we have modern historical evaluations on the event that help us to write better articles. That's how I feel about this in a nutshell. Interstellarity (talk) 19:46, 23 December 2020 (UTC)

Statement by 2601:648:8202:96B0:0:0:0:313A (talk)

1932 really is still the beginning of contemporary US politics. It is when FDR was first elected, and FDR's policy approaches are still a political battleground in the present day. William Leuchtenburg's book In the Shadow of FDR traces FDR's influence through all the subsequent US presidents up to Obama (in the 2009 edition). I read it for a school requirement and found it enlightening. If there is good cause to restrict someone from editing about post-FDR US politics, they probably shouldn't be editing about the FDR era either. The stuff that happened then is still contentious in today's partisan battlegrounds. 2601:648:8202:96B0:0:0:0:313A (talk) 13:43, 24 December 2020 (UTC)

Statement by Geogene

I think any cutoff year you choose will potentially be debatable. But is the current 1932 cutoff already causing problems that need to be addressed? If so, this request would be more compelling with evidence and examples of those problems. Geogene (talk) 18:00, 24 December 2020 (UTC)

Statement by Black Kite

I don't think I've ever processed an AP2 dispute or sanction where the locus of dispute was something that happened between 1932 and 1944 (indeed the vast majority are centred on current issues). That's not to say they don't exist, but I think I'd like to see the diffs before changing the cutoff date. Black Kite (talk) 19:07, 24 December 2020 (UTC)

Statement by Dweller

Echoing Black Kite to an extent, I'm eager to see what are the loci of dispute now, but I'll go further. This is incredibly broad brush and doesn't feel like a good measure at all. Having briefly looked into the morass of the case that prompted it, I'm wondering if Arbcom at the time were both rather exasperated and reluctant to issue a huge swathe of personal sanctions. Anyway, that's speculation. More to the point, I feel this measure is bad for Misplaced Pages. --Dweller (talk) Become old fashioned! 19:14, 24 December 2020 (UTC)

Statement by Ymblanter (American politics 2)

All sanctions (theoretically) must be recorded in the log at WP:ACDSLOG. For 2020, I see there only two articles which relate to something else than post-1990 politics: Frank Rizzo which I have protected myself (and this is the only time I remember involving AP2 for not contemporary politics, and I am not shy in imposing AE sanctions), and Three Red Banners which is probably there in error (I do not see how it is related to AP2). In any case, both articles are post-1950.--Ymblanter (talk) 12:33, 25 December 2020 (UTC)

Statement by power~enwiki

I support changing this, to some date not after 1992. From a quick glance, with the one exception Ymblanter noted, the oldest topic I found discussed in the sanctions log was Vince Foster. The vast majority of American Politics issues relate to current events, but the Clintons are still regularly the subject of contentious discussion. There was a preference for a wide buffer region in the original imposition of AP2 to avoid doubt in marginal cases; I think either 1960 or 1980 would be reasonable choices. power~enwiki (π, ν) 20:09, 27 December 2020 (UTC)

I think it's a stretch to say that Vince Foster would be covered under post-2010 American Politics; we don't have "broadly construed" here and he died in 1993. Sure, Trump talked about him, but having the sanctions be "everything Trump talks about" seems like the wrong way to include topics in the sanctions; in that case rather than a year we might as well just say "current". power~enwiki (π, ν) 22:00, 30 December 2020 (UTC)

I will comment on any RFC, but the difference between 1980/1988/1992 doesn't seem important enough to justify one. OK, if several ARBCOM members feel 1932/1944 or even 1960 is the right year, do an RFC, but if the exact post-Nixon and pre-Clinton year is the issue, I encourage ARBCOM to hash it out amongst yourselves. power~enwiki (π, ν) 06:52, 9 January 2021 (UTC)

Statement by Beyond My Ken

The difference between starting in 1932 and starting in 1944 is that the period from 1932 to 1944 featured FDR and the New Deal, isolationism regarding involvement in World War II, the attempt at Supreme Court packing, the American Nazi movement and the anti-Nazi boycotts -- all of which have tendrils which connect them to current American politics. Is MAGA isolationism re-born? Will the Democrats attempt to counter Trump's Supreme Court nominations by packing the court? Is the alt-right the re-birth of an American fascist movement? What do we do about the newly powerful populist movement in Europe? How involved should the US government be in controlling the effects of capitalism? These questions are all intimately connected to what happened from 1932 to 1944, which argues against changing the starting point. 1932 does not seem to me to be an arbitrary choice, but the actual beginning of modern American politics. Beyond My Ken (talk) 22:56, 27 December 2020 (UTC)

Whereas it's arguable that 1944 (1945, really) is the start of the post-war international structure (the UN, NATO, World Bank, IMF etc.), so it would make sense for a discretionary sanctions regime which was concerned with modern international geo-politics. It doesn't really make all the much sense as a starting point for American politics, though. Beyond My Ken (talk) 07:15, 28 December 2020 (UTC)

Eggishorn's data is interesting. I would only suggest that if the start date is moved up, admins take note of disputes and disruption which would have been covered if the date hadn't been adjusted, if any. I still don't see any real harm in leaving the start date where it is, though, under the rubric "If it ain't broke, don't fix it." Beyond My Ken (talk) 00:56, 3 January 2021 (UTC)

Per "range of choices", leaving it at 1932 should not be forgotten. I agree that an RfC should be held before an ArbCom motion, as a content matter. Beyond My Ken (talk) 09:22, 5 January 2021 (UTC)

Statement by Nosebagbear

I'm concerned by people stating that Interstellarity should be providing cases of 1932-1944 that this clarification would resolve. Quite the opposite - everyone else should be being required to provide cases that demonstrate that that set of years should also be covered by DS. It's supposed to cover the minimum possible to avoid issues. I actually think a good case could be made for moving it up to, say, the start of the Vietnam war, and if we're happy to have a discussion on that, that's great, but for the meantime, I'm a strong supporter. Nosebagbear (talk) 11:29, 30 December 2020 (UTC)

Following up, since there is now some numerical data and much more arb discussion, I would say my preference would now be 1989 onwards/post-1988 (as first choice). I'm not sure a full RfC is beneficial, but NYB's suggestion of holding up voting for a week and just asking at various community boards for comments would also serve well. Nosebagbear (talk) 10:38, 11 January 2021 (UTC)

Statement by Eggishorn

I think everyone is agreed that the cutoff of 1932 is arbitrary and that any year that the ArbCom of the time picked would necessarily be arbitrary. Any other date would also be arbitrary but need not be equally arbitrary; i.e., there may be less arbitrary dates available. It is clear from the AP2 Proposed Decision that the ArbCom of the time picked 1932 for no there reason than it was somewhere between the extremes of 1980 (too recent) and all of American history (too far back). If anything, this is a good demonstration of how the Goldilocks principle can guide rational people to suboptimal results. Neither the AP nor the AP2 cases involved anything that reached anywhere near as far back as 1932 and Ymblanter and power~enwiki have already demonstrated that the topics that AP2 sanctions have been invoked for are also recent. Beyond My Ken makes a cogent argument that there is ideological continuity of issues from the Roosevelt presidency era to issues of great controversy today but that is not a reason to keep the 1932 date. If we were to accept the continuity of ideologies argument, then the same issues that FDR faced were faced in recognizable form by his cousin Theodore and that these issues have ideological continuity all the way back to Jacksonian democracy and even to Jeffersonianism and Federalism. The committee implicitly rejected this approach since that would have turned the AP2 discretionary sanctions into American History discretionary sanctions. I think that any argument to keep the 1932 cutoff has to substantiate 1932-present as the narrowest possible range to prevent significant disruption. The record at hand does not present any evidence of this being the case. If anything, it shows that 1932 is far too broad and that this violates the principle that sanctions and restrictions should allow the greatest freedom of editing. WP:5P3 still has some purpose here, after all. The ArbCom of the time picked 1932 not through detailed inquiry of the best cutoff but through what seems like expediency and abundance of caution. The ArbCom of today has the benefit of a record that shows the 1932 date was overbroad and can pick a date that better matches the evidence shown. Looking through the sanctions log for this year and last, it is difficult to find anything even post-2000, never mind after the 1980 date the original ArbCom felt was too recent. Please consider moving the date forward significantly, to at least 1988 (the George H. W. Bush v. Michael Dukakis presidential election). This date would be a better fit for the evidence of disruption that is available and also match BMK's ideological continuity of issues argument while being closer to the idealized least restrictive option and therefore be less arbitrary than 1932. Thank you. Eggishorn (talk) (contrib) 18:46, 30 December 2020 (UTC)

Analysis of AP2 sanctions

At the implicit invitation of Barkeep49's request for better data and because I'm seeing dates picked based on what looks like speculation of what might or could happen, I thought it necessary to present what has happened under the current regime. Debates, however fierce, in the wider society that are not directly reflected in on-wiki disruption should not be the basis for sanctions. Therefore, the record of sanctions was searched for on-wiki disruption and correlated to the time period that the disruption was directly linked to.

Discussion

Of the total 248 discretionary sanctions placed in the 4 years since they were authorized under the current ArbCom remedies , 240 or 96.7% were for edits concerning events after 2016. The almost complete lack of sanctions for events in the time period from 1932 to 1988 shows that the current remedies are not currently narrowly-tailored to the actual disruption experienced on this site. Speculation that sanctions need to encompass the period before 1988 are not supported by the evidence of disruption reported. Although the methodology is believed sound, discrepancies would not change that the evidence is very clear. Even if there were massive errors in time period categorization, the evidence of disruption is clustered is so tightly to time periods after 2009 that there can be no rational argument that sanctions have been invoked to curtail actual disruption for fully 86% of the time period currently covered by the DS regime. Although page protections and similar page-level invocations of the authority granted under AP2 was not explicitly tallied, cursory investigation did not disclose results which differed significantly from the results of the editor-level sanctions and so has not been worth the time to compile. Eggishorn (talk) (contrib) 22:44, 1 January 2021 (UTC)

Request to the Arbs'/clerks

I have to admit some confusion regarding the motions below. From my reading, it appears that two almost-exclusive motions have possibly passed, which probably means I'm interpreting the preferential votes incorrectly. Perhaps a simple form of ranked preference voting could be added? e.g., 4,3,1,2 (meaning first preference is for the 4th motion below, etc...) (This example isn't my preference or a suggestion, I just rolled a D4. Yes, I'm that geeky). I think if I'm confused, I might not be the only one. Thanks in advance. Eggishorn (talk) (contrib) 19:44, 15 January 2021 (UTC)

Statement by Guerillero

I was one of the drafting arbs for this case and can answer what was going through our heads at the time. --Guerillero 20:41, 30 December 2020 (UTC)

Statement by SMcCandlish

In short, I concur with Nosebagbear on burden, and with so many others here in having concerns about how sweeping these DS have been. In detail, I think this should be narrowed to 1960 onward (so it starts with JFK's presidential election campaign – there's always going to be fringe conspiracy-theory nonsense about JFK), or to an even later date, maybe starting with 1988 (George H. W. Bush's campaign), but start no later than 1992 (Bill Clinton; the Clintons are still the subject of a lot of fringe conspiracy-theory nonsense themselves).  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  21:58, 30 December 2020 (UTC)

Statement by ProcrastinatingReader

I wouldn't comment, but some of the arb comments below seem like speculation to me. Rather than guess what years are troublesome, why not look at WP:AELOG? There's years of knowledge of how DS is actually used (minus the intimidation of templates) in that log - practically everything one needs not just for larger DS reform, but also to make evidence-based determinations in small requests like this.

At a skim, I see no page restrictions based inherently on 20th century politics. Too lazy to check the editor sanctions but I'm guessing same applies there. 1980s or even up to the Clinton era makes sense to me. It can always be changed back if this turns out to have been too restrictive. Guerillero was there a particular reason for 1932? The PD doesn't give much insight. ProcrastinatingReader (talk) 14:29, 1 January 2021 (UTC)

I disagree that this is a content decision, and if it were then the whole thing seems to fall outside AC’s remit. ProcrastinatingReader (talk) 06:58, 9 January 2021 (UTC)

Statement by SPECIFICO

I am not seeing any problem with 1932. If there is no disruption between 1932 and, say, 1960, then there will be no enforcement. So why take an arrow out of Admins' quiver for 1932-1960 in case it's ever needed? Bigger picture I am not convinced the current setup is worth the trouble in American Politics. Arbcom principles are basically WP policy that Admins can enforce regardless of DS. The page restrictions in AP add little or nothing. SPECIFICO talk 00:04, 2 January 2021 (UTC)

Katie, on 1933ff articles with no problem, I don't see that there are page restrictions or extra notices. For example, SPECIFICO talk 15:45, 2 January 2021 (UTC)

Statement by Objective3000

To get to this noticeboard and create this much discussion; seems to me that a serious problem with the current arbitrary date being any more problematic than a new arbitrary date need be detailed. And, with all due respect to DGG, I won’t believe that Jan. 20 will mark a milestone in ending the current political millstones until that occurs. O3000 (talk) 01:38, 2 January 2021 (UTC)

Statement by Levivich (AP2)

I'd support 1992 per Egg's data. "Anybody can edit"/"not a bureaucracy" should be the default position. Any restrictions on that should be only as broad as necessary. The data shows that before 1992 is not necessary, as there has only been one case prior to 1992, out of 248 total. Levivich /_hound 03:17, 4 January 2021 (UTC)

It would be better for the committee to decide this here and now by motion than to take up the editor time required for an RFC. If the range of options are 1960, 1980, or 1992, I submit that it won't make a big difference which date the committee picks. If the community disagrees with the committee's decision, someone can start an RFC to overturn it. But if the committee picks a new date and everyone is fine with it, it'll save a bunch of editors a bunch of time. Setting the scope of DS is a core function that editors elect arbs to perform, so I don't think it's a stretch to say the community would trust Arbcom to change the AP2 start date without requiring an RFC. Levivich /_hound 04:36, 5 January 2021 (UTC)

Statement by Calidum

I think pushing it back to 1960 makes the most sense. Keeping it at 1960 rather than 1980 ensures that Vietnam and Watergate would remain under the scope, among other topics. 1980 would be the furthest I would go, because anything later would omit the Reagan years, which have always been a point of controversy. -- Calidum 15:18, 4 January 2021 (UTC)

Statement by Tryptofish

We should be cautious about changing the date too much. It's important to consider that, just because recent editing history may show a narrower, more recent, focus to disputes, that doesn't mean that users won't find reasons to dispute about earlier history as events unfold in the near future. There is, in particular, the likelihood of disputes over whether or not Trump represents a short-term phenomenon, or whether he is the culmination of decades of political trends. Does it go back to Nixon's southern strategy? To the Red Scare? To Jim Crow? En-Wiki faces a particular challenge in that there is a significant political movement based upon deliberate falsification of reality. --Tryptofish (talk) 18:29, 7 January 2021 (UTC)

I'm seeing that Arbs are voting on the motions using language along the lines of using one year is OK in terms of particular political events or figures, but another year is not. Those are absolutely judgments about content, and not about the reported conduct of users, and is the wrong way to go about it. If that's the way the Committee is leaning, then you need to leave it to the community. --Tryptofish (talk) 23:00, 7 January 2021 (UTC)

Today in The New York Times, Nobel-winning economist Paul Krugman has an opinion column in which he gives his views about what led up to the trouble in the US recently: . He says in part:

"This coddling of the crazies was, at first, almost entirely cynical. When the G.O.P. began moving right in the 1970s its true agenda was mainly economic — what its leaders wanted, above all, were business deregulation and tax cuts for the rich. But the party needed more than plutocracy to win elections, so it began courting working-class whites with what amounted to thinly disguised racist appeals."

That's the 1970s. I can confidently predict that:

1. There will be more sources saying stuff like that in the year ahead.
2. Some en-Wiki editors will be strongly in favor of citing such material to say that present-day US politics grows out of the 1970s.
3. Some en-Wiki editors will be strongly opposed to doing so (and just as Krugman's language is intense, so will be some of the disputes here).

I urge the Arbs to be careful not to push the date too far forward. Right now might be a particularly inopportune time to make big changes in procedures about content concerning current US politics, because things in the real world are so very, very unsettled. --Tryptofish (talk) 19:32, 12 January 2021 (UTC)

Statement by Aquillion

While I definitely think the date could be changed, I'd be cautious about relying exclusively on data about existing disruption or sanctions; one thing to worry about is that if the cut-off is too recent, users topic-banned or restricted in the AP2 area might just shift to disrupting articles somewhat earlier in the timeline. Also, having the restrictions be "intuitive" is absolutely valuable to both editors and administrators - they should be able to guess at a glance whether something falls under it. Based on this I strenuously oppose 1988, which is utterly arbitrary and has no special meaning or relevance to the topic area - if we're going to change the scope, 1980 is a much more significant date and will be far more intuitive. The restriction shouldn't be drastically broader than necessary, sure; but it should also be logical and shouldn't leave things outside its scope that are plainly connected in a single topic area. --Aquillion (talk) 15:15, 9 January 2021 (UTC)

Statement by Valereee

From Eggishorn's analysis, 1992 is the issue and almost nothing before that is causing a problem. I almost think it could be 2000 with only a very few concerns before that. And, wow. That is an amazing look at American politics. Someone needs to write a scholarly paper using that analysis. —valereee (talk) 21:25, 9 January 2021 (UTC)

ETA: Would something like AP-25 work? American politics of the past 25 years? That way it maybe wouldn't need to be adjusted in future? —valereee (talk) 22:43, 9 January 2021 (UTC)

Statement by Atsme

ArbCom, grab the bull by the horns, and eliminate DS/AE altogether. It doesn't work - it opens the door to WP:POV creep, and there's really nothing that happens in a controversial topic area that an admin cannot handle normally to stop disruption. All DS/AE does is make it more difficult to reverse a bad judgment call - not saying all are bad judgment calls but I do believe POV creep is an issue. Let the admins do their job normally - if one of them misjudges, another admin will let them know and a compromise can be worked out less any wheel warring. Unilateral actions based on an admins sole discretion has created animosity, confusion, has cost us good editors, solves nothing, and wastes our time as we're seeing here now. That's my inflated nickel's worth, and yes, I'm biased because of what has happened to me. Atsme 💬 📧 19:11, 9 January 2021 (UTC)

Statement by DGG

• I find myself agreeing with Beeblebrox and others --having an RfC on this will just extend the discussion and provide a field for polemics, without adding anything to what the committee can do by itself. I was on the committee when we proposed the 1932 date, and we were trying to avoid saying everything related to AP whenever, by at least providing some limit. I think it was an unrealistic one. The roots may go back to 1932, but the on-wiki controversies begin with Obama. As Eggishorn's data does not go back before Obama's 2nd term, the logical cutoff is the beginning of the election campaign of his first term, which is 2008. DGG ( talk ) 17:58, 10 January 2021 (UTC)

Statement by BD2412

1992 seems to be an entirely appropriate cutoff to me. It's not as if we can't go back and adjust it (or apply existing administrative tools) if a bunch of issues suddenly bubble up around Lyndon Johnson and Richard Nixon. BD2412 T 21:19, 10 January 2021 (UTC)

Statement by GoodDay

I'm content with whatever cutoff year yas choose. Just be sure to let me know, what that new cutoff year is. GoodDay (talk) 21:22, 10 January 2021 (UTC)

Statement by North8000

I think that what makes a few topics particularly and intractably contentious is when there when there is a current real-world contest on where persons from one side feel that their side can gain or lose based on what's in the related Misplaced Pages article. Also where enough English Misplaced Pages editors are motivated to that level. The next consideration is that measures such as this should only be as broad as needed. Besides a chilling effect, like with other Misplaced Pages mechanisms, tools designed to avoid warfare often becomes tools OF warfare. Regarding American politics, the core of the battle is elections and current specific hotly debated items and culture wars. By that criteria, I think that moving it up to 1980 would still encompass the particularly and intractably contentious areas. Sincerely, North8000 (talk) 14:27, 11 January 2021 (UTC)

Since nobody appears to be opposed to narrowing, perhaps you could say "change to 1980 as step one, and then review for possible further narrowing.". Two stages sounds slower, but it is decisively moving towards a resolution vs. not. North8000 (talk) 14:29, 18 January 2021 (UTC)

Statement by Courcelles

As someone who worked on and voted on the existing remedy, I can tell you why I argued for this date specifically -- so that the entirety of Social Security would be covered. It was not a date picked out of thin air; while most of the New Deal is not a major issue in the modern climate, at the time (and in the years preceding the decision) proposals on the reform of Social Security were a fairly big deal, and the impending exhaustion of the trust fund in the next couple years might bring it back up again. I haven't been nearly active enough lately to offer anything beyond this historical "What was arbcom thinking?" footnote, though! Courcelles (talk) 01:03, 16 January 2021 (UTC)

Statement by {other-editor}

Other editors are free to make relevant comments on this request as necessary. Comments here should address why or why not the Committee should accept the amendment request or provide additional information.

American politics 2: Clerk notes

This area is used for notes by the clerks (including clerk recusals).

American politics 2: Arbitrator views and discussion

• just as a suggestion, perhaps it would be better to discuss this after Jan. 20? DGG ( talk ) 06:26, 24 December 2020 (UTC)

  With the holidays and new year and new Arbs incoming, I don' think we'll have reviewed this much sooner anyway. Technically, January 20th is not that relevant for articles about events 80 years ago but since this is a pretty active and sensitive area, I would recommend scheduling plenty of time for community comments anyway. Regards SoWhy 10:35, 24 December 2020 (UTC)

• Any cut-off date of this kind is going to be at least a little bit arbitrary. I'd be interested in knowing whether the current 1932 date is causing any practical issues, e.g., are there people being sanctioned for disputed edits or edits being unnecessarily deterred covering the period from 1932 to, say, 1960? Off the top of my head I'd say the major flare-ups have concerned the politics and politicians of the past 20 years or so, but I'd welcome input from the AE admins and the editors active in the area. Newyorkbrad (talk) 18:51, 24 December 2020 (UTC)
• Interstellarity, what is currently covered in that 1932–1944 time period that you think ought not to be covered by DS? I can see the potential argument for adjusting the time frame of the DS topic area, but I don't know if changing it that minimally is really worth the time. GorillaWarfare (talk) 16:23, 28 December 2020 (UTC)
• Looking at the examples given here of older topics covered under this DS area: Frank Rizzo is covered due to a statue of him being torn down in 2020, Three Red Banners is covered due to a conspiracy theory involving the Biden/Harris logo, and Vince Foster is covered due to ongoing conspiracy theories involving his death. I think it's fair to say that all three of these articles would still be covered regardless of the cut-off date for discretionary sanctions in this topic area, and instead we should be looking at trying to delineate politics from history. Perhaps the line separating the two could be drawn much closer to the present than is being proposed here. – bradv🍁 16:42, 28 December 2020 (UTC)
• I've always thought that setting a date from which DS would apply was more of a content decision that ArbCom normally makes. Further, the reasoning offered here by some editors (e.g. Beyond My Ken, SMcCandlish) about why it should be certain dates again reads to me more like a content decision making than behavioral determination. The reason why ArbCom does this is pretty obvious - ArbCom owns DS and DS is normally created in the middle of a case, so of course it needs to make a decision around the parameters. However, in this case ArbCom isn’t under the time pressure of a case. Therefore, I would be inclined to want to see a normal content resolution method, in this case an advisory RfC, to justify voting to change the years of DS or else more behavioral analysis (such as what is offered by Eggishorn) in order to support a change. Best, Barkeep49 (talk) 00:30, 1 January 2021 (UTC)

  Eek: I think there's a good argument to be made that the onus on us is to limit the scope of extraordinary administrative powers (through DS) to the minimum necessary range and thus a good reason for the 1980 date suggested a couple times above (and also what Guerillero indicated to me was their original proposal). What, beyond what has been presented here by Interstallar and some others, would be a reason for you to re-evaluate the date? My answer is above but I'm curious what yours is because I am not clear. Best, Barkeep49 (talk) 04:58, 1 January 2021 (UTC)

  I want to publicly acknoweldge what Eggishorn has done here. The data he has collected is impressive on its own merits and very useful for me in my decision making process. Thank you to him. I remain open to an advisory RfC, as seems to have been supported by Worm, but I'm also open to just deciding it here if there is consensus among editors (and to be clear I'd want more comments made to be clear that's the case) and arbs generated by the data we now have. Best, Barkeep49 (talk) 04:21, 5 January 2021 (UTC)

  I'd be OK with 1992 given the data in front of us. I'll note that I went through the article restrictions and found a couple that would be outside the time we're talking about (Internment and Frank Rizzo) from the last 3 years but this on the whole does continue to support that disruption is from the last 30 years. Best, Barkeep49 (talk) 18:35, 8 January 2021 (UTC)

@Eggishorn: L235 sent out a nice reminder to the Arbs and Clerks about how this works. But essentially a second choice support is the same as an oppose until the first choice fails. So using me as an example, I oppose 1980 and have varying preferences for the other 3. Right now my first choice is 1988. That means I'm technically opposing 1992 and the RfC. If 1988 gets a majority opposing 1988 (as would happen if 1 more arb opposes) then I'm supporting 1992. I would try to do vote counting but NYBs and L235s equal first choices makes my head spin so I'm going to leave it to the professionals (clerks) to do, but I think things will fall into place soon. Best, Barkeep49 (talk) 21:50, 15 January 2021 (UTC)

• A few thoughts: I can see myself supporting a much more recent cutoff than 1932 – plausibly I could end up supporting something in the neighborhood of the 1980s. I don't know if it's really worth it to move it up to something like 1944; is there much actual benefit? I could also support an advisory RfC like Barkeep49 proposes, but I'm not sure I agree it's a "content decision". Best, KevinL (aka L235 · t · c) 01:10, 1 January 2021 (UTC)
• I would personally support a date such as 1945 (the end of WWII and the beginning of the current world order) or 1955 (the start of the Vietnam war). If the community would like it, absolutely, and an advisory RfC as Barkeep suggests would be a great idea. But I wonder if it is even necessary to revisit the date at this time. It was arbitrary to begin with, and anything we would come up with would also be somewhat arbitrary. I am not seeing a compelling reason that the 1932 cutoff is causing problems, and changing it will result in a lot of bureaucratic overhead. If the adjustment would be minor and have limited effects, I think our energy best be saved for a broader look at DS later this year. CaptainEek ⚓ 04:49, 1 January 2021 (UTC)

  BK: I can buy that the onus is on us to limit extraordinary powers, like DS, and am open to seeing the date move up. But I disagree with 1980 (Reagan's election), I think that remains too recent, and excludes much that remains a sorespot in the American political memory. I see that power~enwiki and SMcCandlish both mention 1960 (JFK's election), which I would accept more readily than 1980. I think the date should certainly not be sooner than 1980, as the Reagan years remain fiercely debated and form the foundation of the current political divide. CaptainEek ⚓ 05:31, 1 January 2021 (UTC)

  I greatly congratulate Eggishorn's analysis, thank you for the solid data, that has changed my mind. It seems apparent that we could choose 1992 or later and still be fine. CaptainEek ⚓ 23:06, 1 January 2021 (UTC)

• Thanks, Eggishorn, for that data – most helpful. I understand the original 1932 date, FDR and New Deal and so on. It's certainly not causing any difficulty to anyone, since there are no sanctions being issued, but if we don't need it, we don't need it, and I don't like having unnecessary sanctions and their notice boxes and advisory requirements and so forth. I'd be willing to amend to 1980, but in no event should it be any sooner than 1992. Katie 13:54, 2 January 2021 (UTC)
• I'm on board with moving to a more modern date, limiting the DS area. That said, I'm not keen on the committee chosing the date, as it does seem to be a content issue. Therefore, I particularly like Barkeeps' suggestion of an advisory RfC, to get community thoughts (also thank you to the community members who have commented so far). Worm(talk) 10:21, 4 January 2021 (UTC)
• I'm open to changing the date and I agree that "when did modern politics start?" is a content question, so an advisory RFC seems like a good idea but in the end, this Committee has to decide which date to set (but hopefully wiser after community input). Regards SoWhy 07:57, 5 January 2021 (UTC)
• I'll echo SoWhy in endorsing an advisory RfC to help us make the final decision. --BDD (talk) 16:35, 6 January 2021 (UTC)
• Eggishorn makes a solid case for why we should move the date closer (and a potential starting point). The question of when is somewhat up for debate. On the one hand, I feel like any date we pick will be criticized (though I've seen some fairly compelling reasons for certain dates above). On the other hand, asking the community to decide would likely result in a hundred people all splitting their opinions between every year between 1932 and 2016 (i.e. at the moment I would not be in favour of some sort of advisory RfC).

TLDR: I'm willing to be convinced either direction, but at the moment I'm a "yes" for changing the date and a "no" for a community RfC on it. Primefac (talk) 20:32, 6 January 2021 (UTC)

• I've been meaning to comment here for days but got somewhat distracted by American Politics in real time. I do think we have a responsibility to keep sanctions as limited as is reasonable, and 1932-now is probably too wide a net for the scope of the issues. The idea of asking the community to decide for us does not sit well with me as I expect we would simply be extending the process and would still need to ultimately make the decision ourselves. The data is indeed compelling and interesting, but my gut says we'd be making a mistake by leaving the Reagan years out of it. Beeblebrox (talk) 18:01, 8 January 2021 (UTC)
• Just to provide clarity to editors who are watching, the 1992 cut-off now has a majority and is currently set to pass. Best, Barkeep49 (talk) 21:17, 16 January 2021 (UTC)

Motion: American politics 2 (1988 cutoff)

Remedy 1.2 of the American politics 2 case ("Discretionary sanctions (1932 cutoff)") is retitled "Discretionary sanctions (1988 cutoff)" and amended by replacing the words "post-1932 politics of the United States" with "post-1988 politics of the United States". Any sanctions or other restrictions imposed under the discretionary sanctions authorization to date shall remain in force unaffected.

For this motion there are 11 active arbitrators. With 1 arbitrator abstaining, 6 support or oppose votes are a majority.

Support

1. First choice given the data we've accumulated and Levivich's point about the value of editor time. Best, Barkeep49 (talk) 01:02, 7 January 2021 (UTC)
2. First choice. KevinL (aka L235 · t · c) 04:27, 7 January 2021 (UTC)
3. I don't think this is a critical change, because no one is being sanctioned, or deterred from editing for fear of being sanctioned, in the earlier years anyway. Per SoWhy below, I'd be fine with tweaking the date to 1980 or 1992 also. Newyorkbrad (talk) 06:37, 9 January 2021 (UTC)

   second choice (on equal ground with 1980) given my thoughts on 1992 below. Primefac (talk) 12:09, 15 January 2021 (UTC) As proposer (with thanks to L235 for drafting the language). Primefac (talk) 00:37, 7 January 2021 (UTC)

   Struck, moved to oppose. Primefac (talk) 23:57, 15 January 2021 (UTC)

Oppose

1. I'm not sure whether any of the dates mentioned are "correct" but if this aims to encompass "modern" politics, it should either include Reagan (1980) or clearly not (1992). I would count George H. W. Bush's presidency as an extension of Reagan's, considering he kept key policies and personnel in place, so 1988 seems a weird "cut" in this era to make. I still think a RFC would be helpful and I don't agree that not doing so will "save a bunch of editors a bunch of time". No one is forced to participate in such a RFC and if editors want to spend their time on such a discussion, it'll be their own choice. Regards SoWhy 19:15, 7 January 2021 (UTC)
2. Maxim_(talk) 20:11, 10 January 2021 (UTC) The data suggests that arbitration enforcement actions get applied overwhelmingly for topics starting at 1992 and later.
3. We either include the Reagan years, or exclude the Reagan years, we shouldn't cut them in half (since HW Bush is basically Reagan II: Electric Boogaloo) CaptainEek ⚓ 06:52, 11 January 2021 (UTC)
4. I don't see any reason to choose 1988 vs. 1992. --BDD (talk) 15:16, 14 January 2021 (UTC)
5. Of the three proposed cutoff dates, I feel this one makes the least sense. Beeblebrox (talk) 21:05, 15 January 2021 (UTC)
6. Every time I read through this thread it becomes more clear that '88, among the three date options, is the least plausible for a cutoff date. Primefac (talk) 23:57, 15 January 2021 (UTC)
7. Per Primefac (and others) really Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 21:50, 16 January 2021 (UTC)

Abstain

1. Prefer 1992, don't oppose 1988. Worm(talk) 08:37, 15 January 2021 (UTC)

Discussion

• I think I'd be on board if this were 1980. I'll keep considering. --BDD (talk) 14:44, 7 January 2021 (UTC)
  • I'm also personally fine with a 1980 cutoff. KevinL (aka L235 · t · c) 18:49, 7 January 2021 (UTC)
  • If we're going to make the decision ourselves I think we need to do it based on data regarding existing disruption. 1988 already provides a buffer against the data suggesting problems begin with Clinton (1992). So I could not support 1980 if we're doing this here. I could support it as a more traditional content decision but for that I'd want the RfC. Best, Barkeep49 (talk) 18:57, 7 January 2021 (UTC)

Motion: American politics 2 (RfC)

In Remedy 1.2 of the American politics 2 case ("Discretionary sanctions (1932 cutoff)"), the Arbitration Committee authorized standard discretionary sanctions for "all edits about, and all pages related to post-1932 politics of the United States and closely related people". The Committee is now considering amending the 1932 cutoff date, and invites the community to hold an advisory RfC regarding what change, if any, should be made to it.

For this motion there are 12 active arbitrators. With 0 arbitrators abstaining, 7 support or oppose votes are a majority.

Support

1. Second choice as I think my original idea that there are elements to content decisions so we should use content decision mechanisms still remains. Best, Barkeep49 (talk) 01:03, 7 January 2021 (UTC)

   Third choice. Best, Barkeep49 (talk) 20:36, 10 January 2021 (UTC)

2. Second choice. KevinL (aka L235 · t · c) 04:27, 7 January 2021 (UTC)
3. Per above. RegardsSoWhy 19:06, 7 January 2021 (UTC)

   Still think would be a good idea to have a discussion but I also think, we can decide this now, so for purposes of counting, count this as oppose if any cutoff passes. Regards SoWhy 21:42, 16 January 2021 (UTC)

4. Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs 20:36, 7 January 2021 (UTC)
5. Since this is fundamentally a content question, I expect this will remain my first choice. --BDD (talk) 20:47, 7 January 2021 (UTC)
6. Fundamentally, I do not believe this is a question for the committee, as it will have site wide content reprecussions. Overkill, perhaps, slow, perhaps - but neither of those concern me as much as getting the right answer. However, in deference to my colleagues below - I will be supporting 1992 and abstaining from other choices, which are all fine. I choose 1992 so as to minimise the area covered by DS - which I believe is an important thing to do. I would also accept 1998 based on the Eggishorn investigation, but I think I'm the only one on that. Worm(talk) 08:36, 15 January 2021 (UTC)

Oppose

1. I understand the concept, but a full-fledged, monthlong community RfC on this particular issue strikes me as overkill. If we feel we could use more input, a more direct approach would be to suspend the voting for a week, and announce on relevant noticeboards that we are considering this issue and would welcome community comments here. Newyorkbrad (talk) 06:43, 9 January 2021 (UTC)
2. Maxim_(talk) 20:18, 10 January 2021 (UTC) While I would appreciate being shown wrong, as far as I'm aware, the "arbcom encouraging an RfC" path has rarely if at all been successful. There was such a recommendation following the portals (2020) or civility in infobox discussions (2018) cases but it didn't go anywhere. Even the committee-led anti-harassment RfC took forever to get going, even after the new arbs were seated after the 2019 election.
3. per the cogent analysis of my peers. Primefac (talk) 20:28, 10 January 2021 (UTC)
4. I was originally in support of this idea, but I don't think this is an important enough issue to dedicate a copious amount of community time to. This has already extended longer than it really ought have, and the outcome will still likely be one of the dates we have identified. Also, we have had a fair amount of community involvement already, which has given us the solid info we need to make an informed decision (thanks again to Eggishorn). CaptainEek ⚓ 06:57, 11 January 2021 (UTC)
5. Per my comment below, I still feel this is our problem to solve, and kicking the can down the road won't change that, and is likely to be a waste of time. We've gotten plenty of input from the community right here on this page, I don't see how doing the same thing on another page for an entire month is needed. Beeblebrox (talk) 21:00, 15 January 2021 (UTC)
6. Huge timesink Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 21:51, 16 January 2021 (UTC)

Discussion

• This is an interesting idea, and I appreciate the thought behind it, but I have some concerns. One is that this is our responsibility. Whether we agree or not that the previous committee should have set a hard cutoff date, they did and therefore any change is ultimately our problem. More generally, I'm concerned that an RFC is just kicking the can down the road. If we don't get a very clear result we will just be back here in a month having the exact same discussion. I'm not at the point right now while I am outright opposing this idea but neither am I at the point where I would support it. Beeblebrox (talk) 18:11, 8 January 2021 (UTC)

  Same here, per my comment in the main section above. Primefac (talk) 18:29, 8 January 2021 (UTC)

Motion: American politics 2 (1980 cutoff)

Remedy 1.2 of the American politics 2 case ("Discretionary sanctions (1932 cutoff)") is retitled "Discretionary sanctions (1980 cutoff)" and amended by replacing the words "post-1932 politics of the United States" with "post-1980 politics of the United States". Any sanctions or other restrictions imposed under the discretionary sanctions authorization to date shall remain in force unaffected.

For this motion there are 12 active arbitrators. With 0 arbitrators abstaining, 7 support or oppose votes are a majority.

Support

1. Proposed, as this date has been mentioned by BDD as a potential option. Equal first choice to the 1988 cutoff (clerks: count this as a vote for the motion that receives the most support from other arbs). I still disagree with the notion that this is a "content issue" – in my view, content issues are ones where the Committee decides directly or indirectly the contents of articles; this is manifestly not that. Even if the Committee decided "the cutoff should be the beginning of modern American politics, which begins 1980", that still wouldn't be a content decision, because it would not be binding on what can be included in the content of articles. And in my view, we've spent far more time on this than this issue justifies already. Best, KevinL (aka L235 · t · c) 20:40, 10 January 2021 (UTC)
2. I think 1980 preferable to the 1988 cutoff. If we're going only by Eggishorn's well compiled data, then we should use 1992. But the disruption potential of the Reagan years seems apparent, and I think we would do ourselves a disservice by choosing a date later than 1980. See also my above comments. I agree with Kevin that this is not a content decision, and that we have already spent too much time on it. We aren't saying what can and can't be on pages, or defining for the world what modern American politics is, we are simply creating a usable internal definition that allows for special enforcement action. CaptainEek ⚓ 06:50, 11 January 2021 (UTC)
3. Second choice. I still think we should have a wider discussion (RFC or otherwise) but if not, I agree with CaptainEek above. Considering the influence Reagan had on the modern GOP and by extension American politics in general, this era should be covered. Regards SoWhy 13:29, 11 January 2021 (UTC)

   I don't think a RFC will happen, so I'll upgrade this to first choice in order to hopefully make it easier to calculate supports. Regards SoWhy 21:39, 16 January 2021 (UTC)

4. Second choice after the RFC—i.e., if we're deciding now, I say 1980. CaptainEek has put it best. --BDD (talk) 16:16, 11 January 2021 (UTC)
5. Second choice (even with 1988). I can see the argument for including the Reagan years, but the evidence suggests that these are not "disputed" years of activity. That being said, there are many involved in American Politics who would classify Reagan as being the "beginning of modern politics", and since that's the primary focus of this DS region it would make sense to include his presidency in it. Primefac (talk) 11:58, 15 January 2021 (UTC)
6. Support, equal preference to the other dates. Newyorkbrad (talk) 17:29, 15 January 2021 (UTC)
7. Is this a perfect solution? Almost certainly not. Is it better than what we have now? Yes. While I appreciate that this is a rare instance where we appear to have empirical data that suggests a specific date that is different from this one, I really feel like the Reagan years were the genesis of the current framework of American national politics and we'd fnd ourselves back here again in the future if we exclude them from the scope now. Beeblebrox (talk) 21:03, 15 January 2021 (UTC)

Oppose

1. Opposed per my comments above.below Best, Barkeep49 (talk) 20:35, 10 January 2021 (UTC) Edited Barkeep49 (talk) 16:24, 11 January 2021 (UTC)
2. Per oppose on 1988 cutoff Maxim_(talk) 20:48, 10 January 2021 (UTC)
3. Too broad Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 21:51, 16 January 2021 (UTC)
4. Soft oppose, to help with voting. Since the RfC is not happening, I would like to keep the sanction as narrow as possible. Worm(talk) 12:06, 18 January 2021 (UTC)

Abstain

Prefer 1992, don't oppose 1980 Worm(talk) 08:38, 15 January 2021 (UTC)

Discussion

• Just to put my concerns with this date in this section rather than making people search them out elsewhere, I think we, as a committee, have an obligation to apply DS as narrowly as possible in order to prevent disruption. Given what appears, over a 3 year time period which included an election, a lack of disruption that led to either article restrictions (my look revealed 2 that were pre-1988) or editor sanctions (see work above from Eggishorn) I think saying "1980 because that marked an epoch change in American History" is an intellectually cogent position but not one which fulfills our obligation to be conservative with the grant of extraordinary powers to administrators. Best, Barkeep49 (talk) 16:24, 11 January 2021 (UTC)

Motion: American politics 2 (1992 cutoff)

Remedy 1.2 of the American politics 2 case ("Discretionary sanctions (1932 cutoff)") is retitled "Discretionary sanctions (1992 cutoff)" and amended by replacing the words "post-1932 politics of the United States" with "post-1992 politics of the United States". Any sanctions or other restrictions imposed under the discretionary sanctions authorization to date shall remain in force unaffected.

For this motion there are 10 active arbitrators. With 2 arbitrators abstaining, 5 support or oppose votes are a majority.

Enacted - Dreamy Jazz 22:08, 19 January 2021 (UTC)

Support

1. Second choice. Best, Barkeep49 (talk) 20:35, 10 January 2021 (UTC)
2. Proposed, as this date has been mentioned by Barkeep49 and others as a potential option. Equal first choice to the 1988 cutoff (clerks: count this as a vote for the motion that receives the most support from other arbs), per my vote above. KevinL (aka L235 · t · c) 20:40, 10 January 2021 (UTC)
3. Per comments on 1988 cutoff. Maxim_(talk) 20:48, 10 January 2021 (UTC)
4. Per my comments on RfC motion - this would be my choice if my colleagues do not agree on holding an RfC. I don't oppose any of the dates - but I do feel the committee should be minimising the area covered by DS. I appreciate CaptainEek's point about capturing potentional disruption - but there's potential disruption everywhere, and our concern should be actual disruption. These sanctions are not being used to combat anything between 1980 and 1992, so we should just cover the minimum. Worm(talk) 08:42, 15 January 2021 (UTC)
5. Having re-read through the evidence, while the other dates have reasonable arguments, the evidence indicates that there has been no disruption before the Clinton years. Primefac (talk) 11:55, 15 January 2021 (UTC)
6. Support, equal preference to the other dates. Newyorkbrad (talk) 17:29, 15 January 2021 (UTC)
7. Support only as a distant second choice to 1980. Beeblebrox (talk) 21:04, 15 January 2021 (UTC)
8. Support strongly - based on (a) zero sanctions older than 1993 (b) start of controversial Clinton years, (c) significant numbers of still-living people active from this point on. Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 21:53, 16 January 2021 (UTC)

Oppose

1. Much of current American politics, at least on the conservative side, can be tracked back to Reagan and Bush, including a number of key personnel, like Bill Barr, who served both back then and recently. I also think it's reasonable to have a cut off date that encompasses most still living politicians' whole careers. There are only two current members of Congress whose tenure started before 1980 (Patrick Leahy and Don Young) but thirteen that started before 1992, including Mitch McConnell. Regards SoWhy 19:13, 15 January 2021 (UTC)

Abstain

1. I do not feel strongly about 1992. I think it would be a workable date, though I prefer 1980 so that we capture the Reagan years. But 1992 would not be the end of the world. CaptainEek ⚓ 07:02, 11 January 2021 (UTC)
2. Per CaptainEek. I don't really see the case for 1988, but otherwise, all of the proposed motions are reasonable to me. --BDD (talk) 15:18, 14 January 2021 (UTC)

Discussion