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A request for arbitration is the last step of dispute resolution for conduct disputes on Misplaced Pages. The Arbitration Committee considers requests to open new cases and review previous decisions. The entire process is governed by the arbitration policy. For information about requesting arbitration, and how cases are accepted and dealt with, please see guide to arbitration.

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Current requests

Occupation of Latvia 1940-1945

Initiated by Constanz - Talk at 10:32, 26 January 2007 (UTC)

Involved parties

Constanz (talk · contribs)- iniated the arbitration

Vecrumba (talk · contribs)

Martintg (talk · contribs)

Grafikm fr (talk · contribs)

Irpen (talk · contribs)

Petri Krohn (talk · contribs)

Various others

Diffs showing that the involved parties have been notified on their talk pages

User talk:Vecrumba -

User talk:Martintg -

User talk:Grafikm fr -

User talk:Irpen -

User talk:Petri Krohn -

Confirmation that other steps in dispute resolution have been tried

• Misplaced Pages:Third opinion
• WP:RfC (commented here)
• WP:RfC

Summary

It is disputed, whether Soviet rule in Latvia (1940-1941 and from 1944 on) can be referred to as occupation or not and whether the current title is neutral or not. Constanz - Talk 10:32, 26 January 2007 (UTC)

Statement by Constanz

When I first saw the dispute on talk page, going around the question, whether Latvia was occupied by the USSR or not, I thought it wasn't a real content dispute. A couple of users, me included, have removed the POV-title tag and non-compliant tag added by some users, and even reported admin noticeboards, believing Irpen's, Grafikm fr's & others' acts would qualify as improper use of dispute tags. That's so because the side who doesn't accept the claim, that the USSR occupied Latvia, has not provided any verifiable sources, that would undermine the accepted opinion. Also, it has not been clearly explained, in what way is the article non-compliant. However, this seems to qualify as content dispute, not abuse.

In my view

1. It has been proved on the talk page, that mainstream Western sources regard the events as Soviet occupation, and Grafikm fr's idea that “Baltic states joined USSR in 1940” is clearly not an accepted thesis in Western history writing. As it is proved on talk, the term occupation is widely used in this context: , incl. Britannica, Encarta and similar sources
2. Although Irpen admited, that “here is no doubt that annexation was illegal from the POV of the international law” , he and other people of his view have still argued, that the term occupation must not be used. So far, they have not presented any reputable sources, but have performed their own argumentation: Baltic states are said to have been members of the USSR (which is legally false, since the annexation was illegal), “were SSRs on their own rights, their representants sieged in the Supreme Soviet” and “All this hardly qualifies as "occupation"”, also interpretation with some factual errors in it etc.
3. Instead of recognizing the sources presented by the other side (or citing the alternative sources), occupation deniers sometimes link Russia's propaganda statements irrelevant to the subject, or express straw man arguments: to admit Soviet occupation is said to be “modern form of Holocaust denial”. Are some Britannica articles then written by Holocaust denials? Actually, I think that there are no reputable sources which would say Latvia was not occupied by the USSR.
4. When directly asked, why should the title used in Britannica be called 'POV-title' here, then e.g Grafikm fr claims the term occupation “was crafted during the Cold War” and is now, thus, POV. However, this would be original research, since once again, no sources were given.
5. I agree, that the article itself is becoming a mess: due to the dispute, whether the occupation took place or not, the article has been filled with proofs, why the events were recognised as occupation by most of the word. Once we have formally admitted the stance of Western mainstream sources (i.e that Latvia was occupied), also opinion of the majority of people who have expressed their opinion on talk, we can start removing unnecessary proofs.
6. In view of this, ArbCom is asked to rule whether the events described in the article can be referred to as “Soviet occupation” and whether the article conforms to Misplaced Pages policies. Constanz - Talk 10:32, 26 January 2007 (UTC)

Statement by {write party's name here}

(Please limit your statement to 500 words. Overlong statements may be removed without warning by clerks or arbitrators and replaced by much shorter summaries. Remember to sign and date your statement.)

Clerk notes

(This area is used for notes by non-recused clerks.)

Arbitrators' opinion on hearing this matter (0/0/0/0)

Administrator Lucky 6.9 (talk · contribs)

Initiated by Reswobslc at 09:50, 26 January 2007 (UTC)

Involved parties

• Lucky 6.9 (talk · contribs)

Confirmation that all parties are aware of the request

• Lucky 6.9 (talk · contribs). He has protected his talk page for the past 3 weeks, so if someone will unprotect it, that can be done.

I have addressed this and notified Lucky on his talk page. The Uninvited Co., Inc. 12:09, 26 January 2007 (UTC)

Confirmation that other steps in dispute resolution have been tried

• Inquiries to this user get deleted without response. He's wiped all the history, but these diffs were a few unacknowledged deletions of complaints to him. Any time he saw a complaint, he'd reply with the "revert" button.
• Another editor started a mediation cabal case, but Lucky 6.9 deleted that too.
• I barely started a user conduct RfC, but chose to bring to ArbCom since he seems to be renouncing his adminship and I don't think RfC can act upon that.

ArbCom is asked to consider this administrator's behavior and mounting complaint history (much of which he has deleted), and to consider his informal resignation of adminship as binding, and accordingly withdraw the ability to delete articles.

Statement by Reswobslc (talk · contribs)

This administrator has been the subject of numerous complaints regarding inappropriate article deletions, as well as deletions of the complaints themselves. Last month another editor began a mediation cabal case regarding these deletions, and he deleted that too. Then he protected his own talk page to block further complaints, claiming "wikibreak" yet he never left. Now, in response of a new user conduct RfC I opened regarding him now, he left this blatant attack no different than the numerous abusive comments and edit summaries left to others who have questioned his deletions. He appears to now be volunteering his own resignation, at least as an administrator, here (deleted, but see log summary) and here and here, and has deleted the entire history of his own talk and user pages. We warn regular users for blanking their talk pages nevermind deleting them. I suppose it is only a matter of whether it is considered binding and gets acted upon, as it certainly settles all the complaints. If I didn't think he'd be back soon, I would suggest not bothering to desysop him, but as this is already the fourth time he's "left the building" (see log) his return is certain. Reswobslc 09:50, 26 January 2007 (UTC)

Statement by {write party's name here}

Clerk notes

(This area is used for notes by non-recused clerks.)

Arbitrators' opinion on hearing this matter (0/0/0/0)

The need for existence of #wikipedia-en-admins

Initiated by Irpen at 01:40, 26 January 2007 (UTC)

Confirmation that other steps in dispute resolution have been tried

Misplaced Pages:Administrators' noticeboard/IRC admin channel is the last of the multitude of places where this has been discussed. Many ArbCom members took part in these discussions.

Summary

In megabytes of the discussions of this thorny issue, no evidence has been yet given that there can possibly be any "admin-only" confidential matters that require the closed channel. ArbCom has recognized the host of problems the channel and some of its members were generating. ArbCom de-facto took steps to regulate the channel thus asserting its jurisdiction over the matter.

ArbCom is asked to rule whether there exists the need for such a channel and, if not, shut it down, at least in its capacity as an official Misplaced Pages-related medium. --Irpen 01:40, 26 January 2007 (UTC)

Statement by Irpen

This is not the case I was planning to launch when I talked about my planned ArbCom action recently. But I think the idea has been in the air for some time now. I will be brief since everything there is to it has been said and all sides that wanted to hear, have heard each other's arguments.

1. ArbCom recognized that the channel has an evil side and has recently made a series of actions to alleviate them.
2. Thereby ArbCom asserted its jurisdiction of the channel de-facto and the community accepted the ArbCom intercession, thus confirming the said jurisdiction.
3. The matters whose confidentiality is really necessary are related to checkuser issues, some ArbCom issues and oversight issues. As such, there is a need for ArbCom and checkuser IRC or other private medium. No examples have been given for inherently confidential "Admin-only" issues to this day,
4. while the very confidentiality of the "Admin-only" channel has been proven to be the reason of several abusive actions. 'The illusion of confidentiality created an illusion of impunity among certain channel members which resulted in severe offences, gross incivility, violations of the WP:BLOCKing policies and other malaise.
5. In view of this, ArbCom is asked to rule whether there is any need need for the said channel to be associated with Misplaced Pages or the Wikimedia foundation.
6. The decision to shut down the channel, if rendered, would not in any way violate its members' freedom of speech. Nothing prevents the small group of people most closely associated with the channel from communicating in a private medium. Such a medium will, however, have no clout and no relation to Misplaced Pages.
7. As a side note, certain recusals in this case are requested.

--Irpen 01:40, 26 January 2007 (UTC)

addendum

I would like to add a word on the issue of the jurisdiction (or lack of it) raised by Fred and JPGordon. During the submission of the original so called "Giano case", the issues of jurisdiction were raised as objections to the acceptance. Nevertheless, ArbCom accepted that case and considered it fully over the concerns of its jurisdiction at the time. --Irpen 05:58, 26 January 2007 (UTC)

Statement by {write party's name here}

(Please limit your statement to 500 words. Overlong statements may be removed without warning by clerks or arbitrators and replaced by much shorter summaries. Remember to sign and date your statement.)

Statement by DragonflySixtyseven

Oh god, I'm participating in an Arbcom case. I always said that if I was ever on Arbcom, my first act would be to ban everyone who voted for me, and my second act would be to issue lifetime bans to all participants in all disputes.

Anyway. My point about -en-admins is that, when we did our high-level implementation of WP:DENY last summer - rapidly deleting the categories, the templates, and related miscellany for certain notorious repeat vandals - that could not have been successfully planned in an open forum.

Also, sometimes it's good to be able to mention deleted articles in a place where you can be confident that other people will be able to read their content. DS 02:27, 26 January 2007 (UTC)

Statement by Miltopia

A channel for discussing admin matters, if existent, should exist the same way the channels for discussing admin stuff on-wiki is - visible to everyone. Things requiring privacy don't need to be seen by admins who aren't involved anyway, and can be taken to pms and email. Are admins an official decision-making body, or just people with extra too to implement decisions? If the latter, there's no reason why everyone shouldn't be able to see their discussions.

The whole issue hasn't affected me at all, but I think this would be a good idea anyway. Miltopia 03:26, 26 January 2007 (UTC)

Statement by mostly uninvolved User:Agne27

As a non-admin, I have not been involved in some of conflicts relating to this channel but as a community member, I do share concerns about the lack of transparency with this channel. In contrast to things like the Arbitrator Mailing list, I do not see a clear need for a "closed door forum" for admins to "vent" and discuss matters that could drastically affect the community. I suppose that a fundamental question in this matter is what exactly an "admin" is and does the responsibility that the community vest upon them require for them the ability to work in isolation and apart from community oversight. I think that question affects many aspects of Misplaced Pages and would encourage the arbitrators to accept this case and help clarify the matter. Agne 04:46, 26 January 2007 (UTC)

Statement by User:Doc glasgow

Firstly I'm not sure this has anything to do with arbcom. What are you being asked to arbitrate? This is a policy matter, and whether the community even has authority is unclear. More substantively: sure IRC can occasionally be nasty (although a few logs may be atypical); all human communication can be misused. Closing this channel won't stop that. Indeed, this argument has already led to a number of less transparent, less accountable IRC channels being set up. That worries me. Self-selecting cliques are more likely to cook conspiracies and group-think. At least in en-admins there is a cross-section of admins - and someone to slap nonsense. Most of what goes on is useless but harmless, and could certainly be done elsewhere. However, there are solid uses. For instance, OTRS can throw up cases where a lot of eyes on an article or user can help. This channel allows me to immediately poke a cross-section of trusted users and normally get someone with the time. I can't do that on-wiki without broadcasting to the world. And I may have to e-mail 50 users to get one to help. What is useful is that the channel isn't fully transparent, yet it has a wide and varied userbase. The choice isn't between discussion with a cabal on IRC, or sharing with the community of admins, the choice is between IRC and broadcasting to world on the open internet.--Doc 10:32, 26 January 2007 (UTC)

PS. I suspect this case isn't really about IRC anyway, it is just round #19 in the same old 'Giano vs the world' case. I predict accepting it will lead to a train-wreck.--Doc 10:42, 26 January 2007 (UTC)

Statement by Giano

I shall be preparing a full statement when I have time to fully express my views on this matter. What seems overidingly obvious and disappointing at this stage, is that so many arbitrators have voted so quickly before further facts can be presented to them. Perhaps they feel they have already seen all that is relevant, which is a pity and may not be the case. Possibly they feel a highly publicised hearing of the facts, known to them already, would not be benficial to Misplaced Pages, however, that would rather prove that the channel needs to be dispensed with. Giano 10:16, 26 January 2007 (UTC)

Statement by Tony Sidaway

We could get rid of the channel today without any protests from me; all relevant confidential business could be carried out on other existing private IRC channels, or else on new channels created to fulfil the need. However this is probably not a decision that can be made by the arbitration committee. The committee might consider accepting the case to consider any credible allegations of malfeasance coordinated or perpetrated on that or any other IRC channel, in email or by any other means (which would certainly be within the arbitration committee's scope. --Tony Sidaway 11:23, 26 January 2007 (UTC)

Clerk notes

(This area is used for notes by non-recused clerks.)

Arbitrators' opinion on hearing this matter (3/3/0/0)

• Reject, community policy issue. Fred Bauder 03:36, 26 January 2007 (UTC)
• Accept. Though certainly an unusual request, I would like to look at and clarify several issues, which I don't think we've addressed adequately yet. Flcelloguy (A note?) 03:45, 26 January 2007 (UTC)
• Accept; there are a number of matters here (including some that we've introduced ourselves in the recent past) that warrant some clarification. Kirill Lokshin 05:13, 26 January 2007 (UTC)
• Reject. I don't believe this is within Arbcom's purview. There are other issues regarding the channel (and behavior on the channel) that might be within that purview, but the existential one is not in our control. Note: should the community wish to put the channel under the control of Arbcom, it would make some issues a lot easier to deal with. --jpgordon 05:36, 26 January 2007 (UTC)
• Reject. A Foundation and community policy issue. FloNight 08:43, 26 January 2007 (UTC)
• Accept per Flcelloguy and for the sake of transparency since the community should be aware of Committee members' thinking on this and related issues. The Uninvited Co., Inc. 12:13, 26 January 2007 (UTC)

Nathanrdotcom

Initiated by Doc at 00:14, 26 January 2007 (UTC)

Involved parties

Nathanrdotcom (talk · contribs)

Doc glasgow (talk · contribs) (as little as possible)

Various others

Confirmation that all parties are aware of the request

Posted on AN and to Nathanrdotcom's talk page

Confirmation that other steps in dispute resolution have been tried

Not appropriate

Statement by User:Doc glasgow

Nathanrdotcom was blocked several months ago following an 'incident'. Until recently he has been considered 'banned by the community'. Today that block was lifted, as it was felt by one admin now unjustified. (I make no criticism of that admin). He has now been reblocked pending a decision. And some discussion has begun on AN.

I take no view on what the outcome should be. And I would trust the community to get it right. However, the community could only make that decision by open discussion on wiki. Given the nature of this issue, the off-wiki comment, and the fact that the reputation and real lives of several individuals (including minors) are at stake, an open discussion with full evidence examined seems to be very ill-advised. (Further, tempers may get heated.) I am thus urging arbcom to take this case, invite all interested parties to submit e-mail evidence and comment, discuss it on the arbcom closed channels and advise the community on what action should be taken. This is what we elected a committee to do, things that are best not handled by us. I take no view on the right decision, and indeed would not participate in this case, if accepted. Please take this case, if you don't you doom the community to discuss this openly, and that is bad for wikipedia and most unfair on various others. It will not be enough to say that this is a community ban and that it should hold. If it is a community ban, then it will always be possible for someone to re-open the discussion. If this user is to remain banned, that would better be an arbcom ban. --Doc 00:14, 26 January 2007 (UTC)

Nathanrdotcom block log . His userpage and talk was deleted and protected by me after the 'incident' --Doc 00:23, 26 January 2007 (UTC)

Statement by ElC

I reimposed NDC's block and protected his userspace due to the highly sensitive nature of the dispute. I, as well, favour a closed proceeding. El_C 00:21, 26 January 2007 (UTC)

Statement by Beno1000

Also in favor of closed proceeding; willing to make private comment to arbcom. Beno1000 01:07, 26 January 2007 (UTC)

Statement by Miltopia

Completely uninvolved.

A private email discussing personal issue is a really crappy reason for nathanr to be banned. Sceptre's done this before. The block also caused him many oppose votes on his latest RfA, if I remember correctly.

That said, I think a lot of pointless drama and unpleasantness can be avoided if "nathanrdotcom" is blocked forever and "Nathan", that is, the man behind the account, is allowed to simply create a new account and edit normally. As in, disassociated with the old identity. Miltopia 03:16, 26 January 2007 (UTC)

Statement by Teke

I echo what Miltopia said above. I am not an involved party, and I will not be contributing evidence. While Misplaced Pages operates with the (unofficial) policy involved in administrative decisions edit are to take place on-wiki, private correspondence seems to have taken place involved in both imposing and removing the block. This is not an investigation that can be handled without the arbitration committee evaluating and deciding on the evidence. It starts private, it ends private. What I do request is a detailed explaination of what is decided without violating privacy as the acceptance of a "private" discussion will demand the accountability placed on arbitrators. This statement may be applied to the above request concerning the admin IRC channel. Best of it to you all, Teke 05:48, 26 January 2007 (UTC)

Statement by Van helsing

I would like to mention that allowing nathanrdotcom to create a new account to avoid “drama and unpleasantness” as stated by Miltopia, would probably not have the desired effect. As Nathan is very likely to want to “clear his name” (who can blame him), but unable to do so without identifying who he is, rendering the “new account” solution ineffective. --Van helsing 10:42, 26 January 2007 (UTC)

Statement by The Halo

I think that an arbcom case is necessary for this very delicate situation, and that, because of how Misplaced Pages attack sites used this sensitive issue last time, some of the evidence must be gathered off-wiki, for the sake of all involved parties. I also believe that this arbcom case must not only look at the circumstances of the original block, but also Nathan's behaviour afterwards, which included multiple threats of revealing personal information to wikipedia attack sites (a threat he carried out), of legal action, and of an unwillingness to follow Misplaced Pages rules if unblocked, this being one example. I am not sure if Nathan deserves to be indef blocked, unblocked, allowed to edit under a different name, or whatever. I do know that the whole thing needs to be thoroughly discussed. Thε Halo 10:58, 26 January 2007 (UTC)

Clerk notes

(This area is used for notes by non-recused clerks.)

Arbitrators' opinion on hearing this matter (5/0/0/0)

• Accept. Flcelloguy (A note?) 02:19, 26 January 2007 (UTC)
• Accept Fred Bauder 04:01, 26 January 2007 (UTC)
• Accept. Kirill Lokshin 04:13, 26 January 2007 (UTC)
• Accept. --jpgordon 05:43, 26 January 2007 (UTC)
• Accept FloNight 08:45, 26 January 2007 (UTC)

Requests for clarification

Requests for clarification from the Committee on matters related to the Arbitration process. Place new requests at the top.

Request for clarification on review of Carnildo's promotion

• I may be missing the obvious, but could the Committee please point to where the pledged review of Carnildo's promotion is stored, probably back in November? I'm sure he would like to put that behind him and I have not seen where the green light was given. -- nae'blis 20:57, 25 January 2007 (UTC)

I think this is something that some of the members on the Committee back then may be able to answer better than I can, but if the Committee back then did indeed promise a review and it has not done so yet, then it should be done so now. (However, I haven't reviewed the situation and am relying on my memory - perhaps the intent of the Committee then was to only review if there were complaints received? Can someone clarify this?) Thanks! Flcelloguy (A note?) 03:12, 26 January 2007 (UTC)

Looking at that link, it does not specify that there has to be complaints, just says that it would be reviewed in two months.

We therefore reinstate Carnildo's adminship, on a probationary basis, for a period of two months, after which his activities will be reviewed by the arbcom.

– Chacor 10:27, 26 January 2007 (UTC)

Request for appeal of precedent from LaRouche case

These sections from the "Lyndon LaRouche" arbcom decision strike me as vaguely worded, but have been subsequently interpreted to represent a general ban on the use of Executive Intelligence Review, Fidelio, and other publications associated with LaRouche as sources for Misplaced Pages articles. I believe that this interpretation is overbroad (see Jimbo's comment) and has had unintended negative effects on the project (see examples.)

I would like to propose the following: that the policy of a "blanket ban" on cites from LaRouche publications be repealed, and replaced with a warning that such cites are simply subject to the policies laid out in WP:RS. The Misplaced Pages policy is clear and ought to be sufficient to prevent abuses.

It is my contention that there will be instances where it is in fact appropriate to cite LaRouche publications, particularly Executive Intelligence Review, which has been in publication for over 30 years and has been called "one of the best private intelligence services in the world" by Norman Bailey, a former senior staffer of the National Security Council. There may be instances where analysis from EIR may be deemed to be OR, but there is a wealth of information, for example in interviews of prominent persons that regularly appear in EIR, that should not be considered OR.--Tsunami Butler 11:57, 24 January 2007 (UTC)

Is this being treated as a blanket ban? My reading is that the limitation on use of LaRouche-based sources only applies to Wikipedians who are supporters of LaRouche. If there are neutral editors with no connection to LaRouche who believe that these are the best available sources in any particular case, they may add them, unless there is some other decision or clarification of which I am not aware. The Uninvited Co., Inc. 23:12, 24 January 2007 (UTC)

If you look at the examples I am citing, plus the answers I received in my earlier clarification request, you will see that it is indeed being treated as a blanket ban. The arbcom case in question makes no distinction between a supporter of LaRouche and a non-supporter (the "LaRouche 2" case bans two LaRouche supporters from editing LaRouche-related articles.) --Tsunami Butler 23:41, 24 January 2007 (UTC)

Some classes of sources are not presumed unsuitable, such as blogs and forums, but it's only a presumption. Editors can make a case for particular sources in individual instances.

The LaRouche material has several problems. His theories and methods are widely viewed as being fringe so they shouldn't be used as objective sources of information or interpretation for an encyclopedia. Just read the Washington Post article that give the Bailey quotation cited above, "Some Officials Find Intelligence Network 'Useful'". Bailey himself sued LaRouche for libel and received a cash settlement and a correction. Authors in the movement often write on obscure topics with novel viewpoints, so the volume of their material, and their availability on the web, could significantly impact Misplaced Pages if widely used for sources. Readers and editors unfamiliar with LaRouche's theories may not realize that an article they're reading is based on his views of the topic. Further, the LaRouche movement editors have a problematic history at Misplaced Pages. The main editor, Herschelkrustofsky (talk · contribs), was found to have been expertly controlling several sockpuppets while engaging in edit wars over plagiarized material and LaRouche theories. It appears likely that he is still editing despite his one-year ban. There now are several single purpose accounts devoted to LaRouche articles, so it seems as if there are more editors promoting LaRouche's POV than ever.

Material like this:, just doesn't belong as a source. On the other hand a user made a good case for linking to some animated geometry diagrams on a LaRouche site, and so we kept it. However the 40-page LaRouche-written article that they illustrate is characteristic of his material and of why we avoid him as a source. LaRouche sources are still in the articles that use them to source LaRouche opinions or statements, for example, Enéas Carneiro and October surprise conspiracy. So it's not a blanket ban.

I've recently removed dozens of inappropriate LaRouche sources from Misplaced Pages articles, links that appear to have been added within the last year. That's the action which has precipitated this appeal. The ArbCom's ruling on LaRouche sources exists to prevent fringe theories pushed by aggressive editors from skewing Misplaced Pages articles. It's needed now just as much as when it was adopted. -Will Beback · † · 09:44, 25 January 2007 (UTC)

The ruling here is clear. Sources that originate with LaRouche may not be used in any articles except those associated with the LaRouche movement. Jimbo's clarification backs up Will's point that LaRouche sources are not reliable in the ordinary sense, and Jimbo further says that evaluating such sources is a difficult job "for serious editors to undertake thoughtfully." Will appears to have done that. Furthermore, Uninvited's comment that neutral editors may add LaRouche sources if they are appropriate both fits in with Jimbo's remarks and excludes Tsunami Butler. So the current status quo is about right, as far as I can tell. Thatcher131 13:08, 25 January 2007 (UTC)

Of course, I disagree with many assertions made by Will Beback and Thatcher131, plus assertions that I may anticipate will be made by Fred Bauder, based on my earlier clarification request. Rather than responding point-by-point to those assertions here, I am asking the ArbCom to open a formal appeal on this matter so that it may be discussed in depth. --Tsunami Butler 15:24, 25 January 2007 (UTC)

Arbitration cases should not be reopened or revisited without clear and compelling issues. Is there a case where these sources are not being allowed? If so, they shouldn't be re-removed without discussion on the talk page - consensus is what powers Misplaced Pages. If one of the banned users is adding them, then an appeal to Arbitration Enforcement should be made. The Administrator' Noticeboard may be a good way to get a range of opinions on the issue. Cheers, ✎ Peter M Dodge ( Talk to Me • Neutrality Project ) 00:16, 26 January 2007 (UTC)

The list of examples that I provided are all recent cases where Will Beback removed material in a manner that was, by my reckoning, arbitrary and senseless. In each case, editors from the affected pages protested on Will's talk page, making clear that they held no pro-LaRouche POV. The one older edit on the list was this one that was referenced in the second ArbCom case. I was not a party to these disputes.

The dispute where I am a party is on the article Lyndon LaRouche, where I object to the removal of quotes from an interview given by Eugene McCarthy to the LaRouche publication EIR, quotes removed by editors Mgunn and 172, with the support of Will Beback, citing the arbcom ban. I can see no valid argument that quotes from an on-the-record, published interview should be considered OR. When I raised this before in my clarification request, I was told by Fred Bauder that "People who follow these things know." I found this explanation less than complete. --Tsunami Butler 01:22, 26 January 2007 (UTC)

• The reason is straightforward:

• A Lyndon Larouche publication is not a reliable source.
• The interview is from a Lyndon Larouche publication.
• Therefore, the interview is unreliable.

• To see how it fits, substitute "Blogspot posting", "personal communication", "forum posting" or other unreliable source for "Lyndon Larouche publication" above, irrelevant qualifiers like "published" on "on-the-record" notwithstanding. --Calton | Talk 02:55, 26 January 2007 (UTC)

As noted above, LaRouche publications are often interesting and useful. The problem is that, with few exceptions, they are original research, sometimes excellent, informative original research, but still original research. For whatever reason, the LaRouche movement is not integrated with either the academic or journalistic world, thus there is little of the give and take with makes up peer review. Bottom line, it isn't who uses them, it's what they are, unreliable sources, not because they are not sometimes brilliant, but because they are original research. Fred Bauder 03:35, 26 January 2007 (UTC)

Looking at WP:RS, it seems to me that EIR is both "publication with a declared editorial policy" and an example of "published news media," so that there may well be cases where it would be appropriate as a source. I do not think that it is accurate to assert that EIR is "not integrated with the journalistic world," although it is cited far more frequently in the foreign than in the domestic press.

The reason I think that this appeal deserves to be heard is that the ArbCom precedent, as it is presently being interpreted, makes a special, and I believe unique policy with respect to EIR. It essentially makes EIR an exception to WP:RS and WP:OR, by saying that citations from EIR may not be evaluated under these policies, but must simply be excluded out of hand. There are plenty of highly partisan media publications which are used as sources when appropriate, or excluded as sources when appropriate. If the ArbCom is to make a policy that EIR is a special and unique case, I think that it warrants a formal hearing. Incidentally, I do not think that this policy, as it is presently being interpreted, is clearly enunciated in the "LaRouche 1" case; the ruling says that "Original work which originates from Lyndon LaRouche and his movement may be removed from any Misplaced Pages article in which it appears other than the article Lyndon LaRouche and other closely related articles." The interpretation that anything from a LaRouche publication is axiomatically OR comes after the fact. My personal interest is that this is also now being used to exclude EIR as a source specifically in "the article Lyndon LaRouche and other closely related articles," which also seems to go beyond what the ArbCom ruled in this case. --Tsunami Butler 07:39, 26 January 2007 (UTC)

Tsunami, LaRouche publications don't count as reliable sources, and may therefore be used only in articles about LaRouche and his movement, and even then with certain limitations — for example, when used in LaRouche-related articles, they can't be used as sources of information about third parties. That the publications are not reliable sources can be demonstrated by reading their contents, and by examining the extent to which those contents are entirely at odds with material found in publications known to be reliable. One example that serves to illustrate is that LaRouche believed employees of the British royal family were plotting to kill him just a few years ago, and he apparently warned the White House that they might be plotting against the president too. I forget the motive, but I think it had something to do with Diana. Any publication that routinely published this kind of material would find itself regarded as an unreliable source for Misplaced Pages; it isn't anything against LaRouche as such, but against material of that nature. The ArbCom rulings are one source that prohibits the use of LaRouche publications, except in limited circumstances, but other sources prohibiting that type of material are WP:V, WP:NOR, WP:BLP, and WP:RS, the first three of which are policies, the fourth a guideline. To have LaRouche sources declared reliable, you'd have to change several key passages in these policies, as well as overturn ArbCom rulings. SlimVirgin 08:15, 26 January 2007 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages:Requests_for_arbitration/Naming_Conventions clarification

The final decision notes that "It is the responsibility of the administrators and other responsible parties to close extended policy discussions they are involved in."

1. What is a "responsible party?"
2. What sort of expectation is it to close an "extended policy discussion?" At what point is it "extended," and at what stage is it okay to throw in the towel? At an arbitrary moment or simply when the discussion becomes "disruptive?"

Thanks. --badlydrawnjeff talk 22:15, 21 January 2007 (UTC)

An established and respected user who is not an administrator could close a discussion. An extended policy discussion is one in which most aspects of the question has been discussed, alternatives considered, in short, a full discussion. Good judgement is needed to determine when consensus has been reached or when it is obvious there is no consensus. When the discussion becomes disruptive, more heat than light, it is probably past time to close the discussion and declare a result. Fred Bauder 22:38, 22 January 2007 (UTC)

So nothing really specific, per se? --badlydrawnjeff talk 01:21, 23 January 2007 (UTC)

The subject does not lend itself to bright line rules. The question is whether the question has been fully discussed and a decision reached. Fred Bauder 01:52, 23 January 2007 (UTC)

Jeff got me thinking, and.. that's not really useful. It's basically saying "If you think you're right then say so and tell everyone to shut up". Won't everyone think they're right in a discussion/dispute/etc? If the situation is reasonably clear one way or the other then we usually don't have to resort to something like this to end it. The situations this is supposed to be helpful in are usually too unclear to actually use this. -- Ned Scott 05:24, 24 January 2007 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages:Requests_for_arbitration/Naming_Conventions involved a matter where there was a consensus, but no closing. Based on lack of closing, an opposition party engaged in move warring. That was the problem we were trying to address. Fred Bauder 03:10, 25 January 2007 (UTC)

I guess that's one way to look at it, but the solution offered still isn't helpful. Nothing personal. -- Ned Scott 04:27, 25 January 2007 (UTC)

• As Fred Bauder said, the gauging of consensus is not something that lends itself well to hard line rules. That is why we have a special permission for users that guage consensus in promotions - bureaucrats (they do other things, too, but that's why the permission was created IIRC). It's a tricky business, but not unsurmountable. When in doubt, further discussion can never hurt. Requests for third (or hundredth) opinions can be useful. Cheers, ✎ Peter M Dodge ( Talk to Me • Neutrality Project ) 00:13, 26 January 2007 (UTC)

Ned, in this situation the result was "reasonably clear" (80% supermajority over a relatively minor issue) but a vocal minority engaged in move warring and disruption. We all agree to operate on consensus, and in most cases policy discussions sort of peter out when the parties get bored, or realize they are losing, and find other things to do, leaving the active particpants to implement the consensus result. Here there was a small but very vocal minority that did not accept the result, possibly because the people who were telling them that they lost were the people they had been arguing with all along, and possibly because there is no "official" way to close a policy discussion. (Unlike XfD, where there is a clear procedure for ending the discussion, announcing the result, and implementing it.) The arbitration remedy authorizes the participants in a debate to close it when consensus is demonstrably achieved, and announce and implement the result. (Although, with all due respect to Fred and the other arbitrators, I think it should have said "uninvolved" editors or admins, and I would hope that in future situations, a majority faced with a vocal and upset minority would seek outside help.) Thatcher131 00:35, 26 January 2007 (UTC)

Well, a good many of us thought it was obvious from day one, but a big problem was how it appeared to people outside of the debate (specifically, how it was being represented outside of the debate). Not only that, but more than once we had "announced" an end/consensus during the debate, so technically we did do the very thing suggested. I understand and agree with the meaning of the statement, but this statement as a tool to help avoid such conflicts in the future doesn't seem very helpful to me. -- Ned Scott 05:20, 26 January 2007 (UTC)

It's better than nothing? At this point you can take a future conflict to arbitration enforcement and say: "see, here we discussed a policy, and here's the consensus, and here we announced it per the Naming Conventions case decision, and Thatcher is still move and edit warring over it, so please enforce the decision by blocking Thatcher until he gets the message." At least it clearly puts the burden of proof on the minority to show that a consensus was not reached, rather than on the majority to prove that consensus exists. Thatcher131 05:41, 26 January 2007 (UTC)

AMA advocates' status in cases

Surely some here know me for being an AMA advocate that from time to time appears in the halls of ArbCom defending people. This time, I have a doubt. What status have formal or informal advocate during a case? Are we "parties" or just "others"? If we are "parties", then, can we make motions, endorse them, object, request in the workshop or just comment as an uninvolved user? My opinion is that advocates should be considered a party, as we're involved (indirectly, yes) in the case... but, in the other hand, no arbitrator has ever thought on ruling on an advocate... It's quite confusing to me and that's why I request this clarification. Thanks in advance! --Neigel von Teighen 19:12, 18 January 2007 (UTC)

• • Any user may be an informal advocate, but an AMA advocate speaks for the user they represent. They are not a party but may speak for the party they represent. In the past no advocate has effectively represented a user, but the role is open. Great care should be taken to make only motions which make sense to the arbitrators. Focus on adequately presenting relevant evidence in a useable form and on framing proposals in terms of core Misplaced Pages policies. Fred Bauder 02:01, 23 January 2007 (UTC)
• Comment: A rule that a party's advocate in a mediation automatically becomes a party to an ensuing arbitration case might inadvertently discourage editors from taking on the role of advocate. Hopefully, it is a rare situation in which an advocate's own conduct becomes the focus of inquiry by ArbCom, so I don't think formal "party" status is necessary. A sensible rule would be that advocates have the same standing as any other editor to present evidence, make workshop proposals, etc., but that of course when an advocate is commenting in the capacity of advocate, it's good practice to note that fact. When an ArbCom case is filed, providing courtesy notification to anyone who was acting as an advocate is also an appropriate thing to do. Newyorkbrad 19:20, 18 January 2007 (UTC)
• Comment • As an advocate myself, I would say that we are just another editor, and should be treated as such. There should be no preferential or special treatment given, and their status as a party should be judged on the merits, or lack thereof, of their actions, and the length of their involvement. If they are not directly involved in the dispute, other than by acting as an advocate, than I would be compelled to think that they would not be a party. After all, we do not bring the previous mediator on a case into a case simply because they were the mediator in the prior attempt at dispute resolution. Cheers, ✎ Peter M Dodge ( Talk to Me • Neutrality Project ) 19:27, 18 January 2007 (UTC)

• I'd suggest doing something like putting the comment in the party section and then signing it, say, "NvT as advocate for RealParty". Unless acting directly as advocate -- i.e., speaking for them -- then you're just another editor with a hopefully useful comment. I think ArbCom can figure out the difference between the real parties and the advocates and is unlikely to include the advocates in any remedies... --jpgordon 19:33, 18 January 2007 (UTC)

• • Well, that's what I myself do: add "User: Imaglang (aka Neigel von Teighen) AMA advocate for User" in the party list and then adding a diff to anything that certifies me as advocate. What I expect from ArbCom is a little guideline on what to do, not a policy. Something we can rely on when an advocate (formal or informal) has doubts on what to do. That's it what we need. --Neigel von Teighen 09:04, 19 January 2007 (UTC)

• Comment • I would assume an Advocate is not a party, but an advocate for a party. In a given case were an Advocate represents a party, and performs actions as any other editor, it may raise COI issues. nobs 22:17, 19 January 2007 (UTC)

• Comment Neigel asks "can we make motions, endorse them, object, request in the workshop". It seems to me the answer is "yes, of course; anyone can do all that stuff, party to the case or not". As far as I can see, absolutely nothing hinges on whether advocates are considered parties. What am I missing here? PurplePlatypus 05:32, 20 January 2007 (UTC)

• • Nobs has hit the point that led me to make this request. There can be COI problems like this: User X makes a motion and Advocate endorses it, counting as two "moves" for the same party in a same "turn"... (proposing-endorsing) I don't know if I'm clear enough... It turns me to be rather unfair in some way... although anyone could go and request an advocate too. Simply put, what I request is a little official guideline written by ArbCom so no doubt nor conflict arrive... Maybe am I being too silly? If so, tell me and withdraw this. --Neigel von Teighen 17:41, 20 January 2007 (UTC)

Advocates have no formal status during arbitration (or, stated another way - they are the same as everybody else). In the past, they have shown themselves clearly and conclusively to be impediments to the arbitration process. In cannot think of a single case they have helped in any way. In short, the AMA is useless. Raul654 18:04, 21 January 2007 (UTC)

• Well, I really know we're an impediment, but we try to do the best we can, including myself. And have an idea: please send me a feedback on my work on the ongoing Starwood case after its closure and tell me how I did it and what shall I improve or if I was really useless? Honestly, it can be a good start! --Neigel von Teighen 19:01, 21 January 2007 (UTC)
  • I can't speak to the Starwood case (which I haven't yet looked at), but in all past cases, the AMA advocates' arguments have amounted to nothing but pettifoggery. If you wish for things to go different, then - and I say this admittedly without looking at what you have been doing there - I strongly suggest you advocate for the person are representing, and avoid resorting to the AMA's standard toolbox of dilatory tactics. Raul654 21:38, 23 January 2007 (UTC)
• Personally, I feel that Advocates could be of use, but currently and in the past they have not been. The problem is that when someone makes an argument on one person's behalf and it is struck down, they tend to take it as a slight against them. I feel that it is important that AMA advocates hold themselves to a certain decorum when working in a case. Cheers, ✎ Peter M Dodge ( Talk to Me • Neutrality Project ) 18:48, 22 January 2007 (UTC)
  • This is why we thought in our last AMA meeting to do gather arbitrators with our Coordinator and Deputies to talk about these things... Well, in summary, the answer to my request is: "Advocates are the same as anyother editor in the case". Have I undertood it well? If so, then, we can say this request is closed, wouldn't be? --Neigel von Teighen 11:17, 23 January 2007 (UTC)

• I honestly must say that I find myself taken aback by comments such as "In short, the AMA is useless," but I cannot deny that historically such observations have been true. In the past, members of the AMA were causing havoc by bringing cases that were far too young in the WP:DR process to MedCom and ArbCom. This, in turn, was mostly due to two things: 1) Advocates who did not have enough direction or practical experience and 2) the fact that the AMA was practically inactive and running "on its own" without any sort of supervision or direction. People were "signing up" with no communication between members and no idea of what to do, the request system was horrific, and the previous Coordinator had resigned months earlier with no acknowledgment from the Association. (This is the state I found it in when I joined).
  
  Recently, with many Advocate efforts, there has been a resurgence in membership, a reorganization of our structure and and influx of zeal to help and because of that the AMA is back on its feet. We've kept the same goal that we initially held (helping disputes on Misplaced Pages) yet have a very different way of going about things. As a result we have already relieved ArbCom of dozens of cases and saved many hours of precious time by reducing the escalation of conflicts as they arise and are referred to us.
  
  Things are working well, but they are far from perfect yet, and I feel that the next logical step is for the AMA to foster a closer, functional, and working relationship with ArbCom in order for our processes to be more efficient, and in the end, put less strain on WP:DR. If we end up doing "our job" properly, even fewer cases will rise to the level of Arbitration, and those that do should be properly researched, formed and submitted. What my wishes are in discussing this would be to see that there is some cooperation between us to further these goals and make Misplaced Pages a better place.
  
  -- (AMA Coordinator) אמר Steve Caruso _(desk/AMA) 03:39, 25 January 2007 (UTC)

Motions in prior cases

(Only Arbitrators may make such motions)

Archives

• Misplaced Pages:Requests for arbitration/Completed requests
• Misplaced Pages:Requests for arbitration/Rejected requests (extremely sparse, selective, and unofficial)

• Misplaced Pages arbitration
• Misplaced Pages dispute resolution
• Misplaced Pages Arbitration Committee