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Revision as of 00:41, 17 August 2021 editFormalDude (talk | contribs)Autopatrolled, Extended confirmed users, Page movers, New page reviewers, Pending changes reviewers, Rollbackers31,511 edits →Rewording Mx. sentence: ReplyTag: Reply← Previous edit Revision as of 02:08, 17 August 2021 edit undoHijiri88 (talk | contribs)Autopatrolled, Extended confirmed users37,389 edits →Pronouns?Next edit →
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:::*Thank you, that makes it easier. ––] <span style="border-radius:8em;padding:2px 5px;background:#0151D2;font-size:75%">]</span> 06:08, 16 August 2021 (UTC) :::*Thank you, that makes it easier. ––] <span style="border-radius:8em;padding:2px 5px;background:#0151D2;font-size:75%">]</span> 06:08, 16 August 2021 (UTC)
:::::Okay, well I guess that resolves it for me as far as content goes. I still really wish we could get a better source than ''ANN''; I just noticed that they seem to confuse sexual orientation with gender identity, and do exactly what I referred to above (i.e., assume a song written in the persona of a fictional gay woman who can't be with her female friend romantically is a "tease" as to Utada's real-world sexual orientation and/or gender identity). ] (<small>]]</small>) 07:02, 16 August 2021 (UTC) :::::Okay, well I guess that resolves it for me as far as content goes. I still really wish we could get a better source than ''ANN''; I just noticed that they seem to confuse sexual orientation with gender identity, and do exactly what I referred to above (i.e., assume a song written in the persona of a fictional gay woman who can't be with her female friend romantically is a "tease" as to Utada's real-world sexual orientation and/or gender identity). ] (<small>]]</small>) 07:02, 16 August 2021 (UTC)
:::::This just came to my attention, but the English version of Utada's official website still uses "she" twice and "her" well over a dozen times, while not using "they", "them" or "their" at all. Is this because Utada, as a non-binary Japanese, sees masculine and feminine singular pronouns (or adjectives?) as a part of the English language rather than a statement of gender identity? Or just a failure to update the website since March? Given that Utada's official Twitter profile doesn't give preferred pronouns and Utada's official website continues to use "she" and "her" almost two months after Utada "came out as non-binary", I think it would be inappropriate for us to speculate on the reason or reasons for these discrepancies and just continue to use the pronouns used on Utada's official website. Honestly, it seems like either Utada might have been talking to a monolingual American friend about a preference for Japanese third-person pronouns and honorifics that don't put so much emphasis on gender or marital status, said American friend might have said "Oh, are you non-binary?", and things went from there, or Utada initially expressed a dislike for the "Mr."/"Miss"/"Mrs." trichotomy in English (I'm pretty sure I've heard of Japanese EFL learners being told that "Mrs." means ''-fujin'', which is technically true in Japanese but no one would think referring to a married woman as "-fujin" and never as "-san" is acceptable, so the translation is less than ideal; marital status, of course, has nothing to do with gender identity, and indeed in a lot of places and times it has had very little to do with sexual orientation or even romantic affinity) on Instagram or elsewhere and non-japonophone fans started extrapolating that Utada had self-identified as non-binary -- this is exactly what the opening line of the ''ANN'' article does, and it's what many people in this thread were doing for more than a month until Volteer finally posted the CQqsEK3JwaG link (wherein Utada actually does self-identify as "non-binary" in both English and Japanese) on 7 August. Given all of this, I think we should just say "Utada self-identified as non-binary in an Instagram livestream" without explicit comment on pronouns, and just continue to use feminine pronouns, with maybe a ] telling people not to change the pronouns to conform to how they think non-binary people should be referred to. ] (<small>]]</small>) 02:08, 17 August 2021 (UTC)


=== Rewording Mx. sentence === === Rewording Mx. sentence ===
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::"prefix" is incorrect. Utada used it, presumably either as a simple error or because Japanese equivalents like ''-san'', ''-sama'', ''-dono'', etc. are classified as postfixes in Japanese. Can we say "titles"? ] (<small>]]</small>) 00:01, 17 August 2021 (UTC) ::"prefix" is incorrect. Utada used it, presumably either as a simple error or because Japanese equivalents like ''-san'', ''-sama'', ''-dono'', etc. are classified as postfixes in Japanese. Can we say "titles"? ] (<small>]]</small>) 00:01, 17 August 2021 (UTC)
:::"Titles" works fine for me. ––] <span style="border-radius:8em;padding:2px 5px;background:#0151D2;font-size:75%">]</span> 00:41, 17 August 2021 (UTC) :::"Titles" works fine for me. ––] <span style="border-radius:8em;padding:2px 5px;background:#0151D2;font-size:75%">]</span> 00:41, 17 August 2021 (UTC)
::::I'm also not a big fame of "came out"; Utada did not say "I am proud to announce that" or anything to that effect, and in Japanese この数年で知って「あっ、それなんだ！」って思ったけど、日本でどれぐらい広まっていることかわからないけど「non-binary」に該当するなって最近知ったので it sounds even less like "coming out". The currently cited secondary source is ''definitely'' not sufficient to solve this, since they clearly did not ask Utada for clarification and seem to go as far as misidentifying "non-binary" with being gay or bisexual (by referencing a song apparently written shortly after Utada gave birth to a child with her/their then-husband, to whom she/they would remain married for another two years). Could we say {{tq|Utada '''self-identified''' as ] during an Instagram livestream}} instead? ] (<small>]]</small>) 02:08, 17 August 2021 (UTC)

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Badly outdated

There's all kinds of "an announcement was made that " stuff in this article about stuff that was in the future in, say, 2010, but which is now way in the past. This material needs to be rewritten to say what did happen rather than what was once planned to happen, or it's simply unencyclopedic "old news".  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  15:10, 24 June 2018 (UTC)

This isn't a B-class article in my opinion

I like Utada, but I find this article to be hell to read because of the choppy prose and one section (2010–15) being overly long. The article doesn't even elaborate further on her musical styles, such as the types of sounds her albums convey or her lyrical topics. There's also no awards section whatsoever, and I can imagine with how big she is in Japan that'd she be nominated for several awards. (if hadn't not won any) Let's not forget the missing references in some sections either. Because of these reasons, I think that this article should be reduced to a C-class.100cellsman (talk) 05:40, 25 November 2018 (UTC)

Standardizing use of last name as subject (MOS)

This article needs a review to standardize referencing the performer by last/family name as the subject of sentences throughout.
Ref: Katy Perry and Kevin Hart are referenced by last name ("Perry did this"; "Hart did that") in standard encyclopedia/journalistic style.
Currently the article switches back and forth between her fist and last name. It should be "Utada" throughout.--GimmeChoco44 (talk) 09:11, 18 August 2019 (UTC)

Requested move 9 October 2019

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: Not moved. Typically, although Eastern name order is preferred by Japanese people when Romanizing their names, there isn't a general consensus on which name order to use in WP:JTITLE – hence, we have the article at Shinzo Abe, not Abe Shinzo. One could compare this to Qazaqstan vs. Kazakhstan or Chornobyl vs Chernobyl, where the natural transliteration isn't the one in common English usage. If the Western name order for Utada – or, indeed, the Eastern name order for other figures – garners greater usage, the matter can be revisited. However, in the case of Utada, the links provided by TJRC indicate her releases tend to be attributed to "Utada" or "Utada Hikaru". (closed by non-admin page mover) Sceptre (talk) 20:29, 16 October 2019 (UTC)


Utada Hikaru → Hikaru Utada – Her english name have to be "Hikaru Utada" as well as other japanese english names, like "Shinzo Abe," "Seiji Ozawa," "Takeshi Kaneshiro," "Kohei Uchida," "Ayumu Hirano," "Shizuka Arakawa," "Satomi Ishihara, "Yoko Ono." Moreover, up to now, her official website in english language has been calling her "Hikaru Utada." See Hikaru Utada Official Website NEWS and amazon.com. Her japanese name is "宇多田ヒカル," therefore, "Utada Hikaru" is just her japanese name's romanization. This means that "Utada Hikaru" cannot be her english name, even if some people have mistaken so. And then, I cannot help but think that nobody can discuss this critical mistake constructively, because this rule about japanese people's english name is already traditional rule and self-evident truth. Nobody, except nuts, can insist "Utada" is her first name. Nobody, except nuts, can insist her first name "Hikaru" should be placed at the position of english last name "Utada," ignoring english name's traditional rule and her will. Beaver4100 (talk) 22:30, 9 October 2019 (UTC)

This is a contested technical request (permalink). Steel1943 (talk) 23:50, 9 October 2019 (UTC)
The current title is a result of consensus formed via discussion at Talk:Utada Hikaru/Archive 4#Requested move 22 January 2016. For that reason alone, this move request is controversial. (Ping Beaver4100.) Steel1943 (talk) 23:50, 9 October 2019 (UTC)
I have to say again. If there can be a consensus on current title "Utada Hikaru," the consensus is only a fake consensus fabricated by romanaization nuts. I have already explained it above. Beaver4100 (talk) 02:43, 11 October 2019 (UTC)
I don't know what you are talking about. Please give us a concrete explanation. You haven't explain nothing. Beaver4100 (talk) 02:05, 11 October 2019 (UTC)
Eastern name order??? Eastern name??? Who doesn't understand Eastern name order? It's you. You don't even know that English name of Japanese person differs greatly from that of other asian person. Beaver4100 (talk) 01:57, 11 October 2019 (UTC)
Her stage name for Japanese people over English name? Why??? What are you talking about? Her English name is the best for English Misplaced Pages and all of the persons in the English-speaking world. And, you seems to be lying. Show us all of the evidences that her stage name is always "Utada Hikaru." Beaver4100 (talk) 01:36, 11 October 2019 (UTC)
Just because it's an English wikipedia doesn't mean we should dismiss WP:COMMONNAME. The fact your ignoring that there's been a long lasting consensus on the article since 2016 and reverting anyone who revert your bold edits shows that you're edit warring on the article. TheDeviantPro (talk) 02:56, 11 October 2019 (UTC)
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

Defaultsort

I recently copied the defaultsort from here and added it to Template:Utada Hikaru songs to keep them consistent, but my edit was reverted. I found that the defaultsort here was changed on April 23, 2019, , and it currently sorts in categories by Hikaru, while the template, Template:Utada Hikaru, Utada Hikaru discography, List of songs recorded by Utada Hikaru and List of awards received by Utada Hikaru. I wanted to make sure which sorting was correct and make the articles and template consistent in their use. Aspects (talk) 05:28, 29 October 2019 (UTC)

Since no one has commented, I am going to revert back to the previous defaultsort to keep the articles and templates consistent. Aspects (talk) 04:55, 9 November 2019 (UTC)

Pronouns?

Has Utada announced which pronouns are correct? Given the Instagram post complaining about "Miss/Mrs/Ms" being used, it might be they/them? 2A02:8109:A33F:F27C:150A:8BDE:B6C2:17CC (talk) 17:20, 26 June 2021 (UTC)

Utada has not yet provided any preferred pronouns, and the "Miss/Mrs/Ms" thing was also (and primarily) about marital status. I say that until Utada confirms pronouns, the article should continue to use "she/her" for consistency's sake. Non-binary does not automatically mean that the person goes by they/them, and automatically assuming that could also be misgendering. I have also brought this issue up with the Manual of Style team because Misplaced Pages does not currently have guidelines for how to handle this situation. -Wohdin (talk) 17:53, 26 June 2021 (UTC)
The article should use they/them pronouns until Utada specifies their preferences explicitly. In their Instagram post they say that they feel that using "Miss/Mrs/Ms" misrepresents them, and that they want to be referred to using a word "that anybody of any gender or social standing could use". They/them pronouns would most accurately reflect this. I would also like to see if the Manual of Style could address this, though. 〜 ♥ (˘꒳˘ ) Teafed, (she/her) (talk) 22:16, 26 June 2021 (UTC)
Rephrasing to avoid pronouns entirely is tedious and leaves the article somewhat clunky, but is a possibility in a case like this. I would prefer "they/them" over "she/her" on the grounds that "they/them" is a perfectly fine gender-neutral pronoun (not just a pronoun some non-binary people use), but "she/her" is not. Ultimately, we're in a very tough situation without elaboration by the subject. — Bilorv (talk) 11:45, 1 July 2021 (UTC)
If the person hasn't specified any preferred pronouns, changing to "they" is misgendering. ... discospinster talk 02:29, 22 July 2021 (UTC)
If the subject hasn't specified what their pronouns are, then using she/her pronouns for them could potentially be misgendering them. Conversely, they/them pronouns can be used when the pronouns of the person being referred to are unknown (see the singular they article for more details). Additionally, I would note that the subject wrote in their Instagram post about wanting to be referred to with a word that "anybody of any gender or social standing could use". GreenComputer (talk) 17:34, 22 July 2021 (UTC)
No. Unless she has explicitly said that she prefers they/them pronouns, it is inappropriate to change them. Not all NB people like to be referred to as they/them as there are other gender-neutral pronouns. Wait until she says one way or the other. ... discospinster talk 18:07, 22 July 2021 (UTC)
Discospinster is correct here. Certainly if Utada expresses a preference it should be followed; but in the absence of that, Misplaced Pages cannot presume to know her preferences. TJRC (talk) 18:18, 22 July 2021 (UTC)
I agree that we cannot presume to know what Utada's pronouns are until they explicitly state their pronouns. However, this also means that we should not use she/her pronouns for Utada unless they say otherwise. I was suggesting we use they/them pronouns as they can be used as gender-neutral pronouns to refer to anyone, however avoiding pronouns entirely is also an option. I would note that most reliable sources appear to have used they/them pronouns when referring to Utada (e.g. ). GreenComputer (talk) 23:18, 22 July 2021 (UTC)
Just because so-called reliable sources refer to her with they/them pronouns, that does not mean she prefers those, especially since Japanese doesn't have gender-exclusive pronouns I believe (I believe watashi is gender-dominant for female, but I've seen it used by males referring to themselves). Like people have said above, several non-binary people use grammatically correct pronouns (see Rebecca Sugar and Miley Cyrus), and thus Utada should be referred to with her last known preferred pronouns until she officially and directly says she prefers grammatically incorrect ones. Unnamed anon (talk) 19:02, 24 July 2021 (UTC)
Agreed (except for the implication that singular they is not grammatically correct - though it can be more ambiguous). Indeed, if the BLP has not said anything about pronouns, we should presume until it is stated otherwise that that is itself a choice, and remain with the status quo. Crossroads 23:21, 24 July 2021 (UTC)
Half of those sources are coming from LGBT-related websites. AngusW🐶🐶F (bark • sniff) 22:46, 6 August 2021 (UTC)
Singular they is an acceptable pronoun. Also my preferred pronoun (they/them) for myself on Misplaced Pages. As an aside, you can use {{pronoun}} on other Misplaced Pages users to find their prefs, although updating preferences to newer pronouns has yet to be done. AngusW🐶🐶F (bark • sniff) 23:32, 6 August 2021 (UTC)

An IP editor today reinstated the plural they/them pronouns, but this time with a source. Assuming todayonline.com is a WP:RS (I'm not familiar with it, so cannot opine either way), I think that's sufficient to support the change. TJRC (talk) 03:17, 5 August 2021 (UTC)

I haven't reverted it, but given the obscurity of this source, that it isn't new so it isn't like there was something just said, the fact that other and better sources don't say that, and the fact that thus one just asserts it, I am inclined to doubt they actually have information other sources don't. Anyone else have thoughts on this? Crossroads 20:55, 6 August 2021 (UTC)
It's an obscure source that quotes her Instagram post and adds further subjective context. But that post specifically reference her marriage status, not pronoun usage. --GimmeChoco44 (talk) 22:28, 6 August 2021 (UTC)
For an out nonbinary person, "they-them" pronouns are much less likely to be "wrong" than gendered pronouns, in cases where sources conflict or are unclear. The argument "we don't know for sure, so we should stick to the gendered pronouns from before he/she came out as nonbinary" strikes me as special pleading, and directly contrary to the spirit (if not the letter) of MOS:GENDERID. The balance of probabilities for "what is most likely to misgender the BLP subject" seems pretty clear in this case. Newimpartial (talk) 21:53, 6 August 2021 (UTC)

References

  1. Lee, Wei Lin (July 5, 2021). "Utada Hikaru Comes Out As Non-Binary". Today Online. Retrieved August 5, 2021. Utada, who now uses the pronouns they/them...

Until Hikaru states explicitly that she wants a specific pronoun, standard English rules apply to this article. The quote attributed to her is not a definitive statement, and a commentary on marital status more than sexuality -- GimmeChoco44 (talk) 22:05, 6 August 2021 (UTC)

No, that isn't the way MOS:GENDERID works. The article must defer to the most recently announced gender identity professed by the subject: in this case, nonbinary. Granted, some nonbinary people use gendered pronouns, either alone or alongside they/them. But is it possible to misgender a nonbinary person by using "they/them"? Not really. Is it possible to misgender a nonbinary person by using gendered pronouns? Definitely, yes. And, perhaps most importantly, in standard English, what pronouns does one use when they do not know what a person's pronoun preference is (or doesn't known the gender of a person at all)? They/them. So the correct choice, per policy, is pretty dang obvious. Newimpartial (talk) 22:29, 6 August 2021 (UTC)
Misplaced Pages doesn't deal in "possible" or "perhaps" or "pretty dang obvious". If there is not a factual reference for changing an existing use of the pronoun, we have to default to standard past usage until there is something definitive. I'm sure if you're patient, Utada will come up with a new pronoun just for herself. --GimmeChoco44 (talk) 22:32, 6 August 2021 (UTC)
MOS:GENDERID has site-wide consensus, and requires that we respect the most recently expressed gender self-identification. We have that; it is nonbinary. Since we have that, we do not need a factual reference for a pronoun choice before changing the pronouns. Since we do not know for sure the subject's preference, we use standard English they/them far he than past usage gendered pronouns - the past usage simply no longer applies after a gender identity announcement. Newimpartial (talk) 22:40, 6 August 2021 (UTC)
The missing piece here is the actual gender announcement from a reliable, cited source. The articles with non-binary headlines are copies of each other based on a subjective recollection of a livestream. Let's be patient and wait until we have something reliable. At such time, this artist may choose an existing non-binary pronoun, state a preference to remain a "she", or create a new pronoun just for her. Waiting for such reference is an acceptable compromise, I think. -- GimmeChoco44 (talk) 22:53, 6 August 2021 (UTC)
Animenewsnetwork looks editorially sound (and therefore RS) to me. Newimpartial (talk) 22:58, 6 August 2021 (UTC)
But the person has also not said anything about pronouns or gave any indication the pronouns should change from the ones already in use for the person even though that could easily have been done. This is a very borderline case and seems ripe for an RfC. Crossroads 22:44, 6 August 2021 (UTC)
Agree on need for RfC. --GimmeChoco44 (talk) 22:49, 6 August 2021 (UTC)
RfC if you like, but in English we use "they/them" if we don't know the pronouns, and most "out" nonbinary people prefer "they/them" anyway. The attempt to retain gendered pronouns in the face of a nonbinary gender announcement, and with no more support than "wE cAnT bE sUrE", is a clear thumb to the nose directed at MOS:GENDERID. Newimpartial (talk) 22:52, 6 August 2021 (UTC)
No one is thumbing their nose at anyone. That's a presumptive assessment. If consensus is reached, we can all move forward. We're all working together to maintain a fact-based page for the artist.-- GimmeChoco44 (talk) 22:58, 6 August 2021 (UTC)
Futhermore Newimpartial , please refrain from personal accusations such as "stop trying to distended nonbinary people" or "clear thumb in the nose" -- there have been no aggressive statements directed at you or any group of people, and reciprocal respect would be appreciated while we have debate among editors with contrasting points of view. --GimmeChoco44 (talk) 23:11, 6 August 2021 (UTC)
RFC and wait for reliable sources that Utada has explicitly declared pronouns. Mys. or whatever is more like an honorific to deal with marital status and the "what makes you think i'm 'straight'?" statement is as vague as the pride flag postings. It's becoming a practice in conference call introductions for speakers to list out or state preferred pronouns. You can de-genderize the pronouns for now, replacing them with Utada. AngusW🐶🐶F (bark • sniff) 23:04, 6 August 2021 (UTC)
Do you see anything in MOS:GENDERID that would support waiting until the subject has explicitly declared pronouns? We have a reliable source reporting a gender identity declaration as nonbinary; that is enough to require us to strip out all gendered pronouns for now. Newimpartial (talk) 23:31, 6 August 2021 (UTC)
Anyway, I have gone ahead and removed all personal pronouns for the time being, which is incontestibly compliant with WP policy. Newimpartial (talk) 00:16, 7 August 2021 (UTC)
And User:TJRC has reverted the strictly NPOV version that used neither "she" nor "they", and re-inserted four misgendering categories (which is a transparently clear BLP vio). Make it stop! Please, for the love of all that is holy, make it stop! Newimpartial (talk) 00:44, 7 August 2021 (UTC)
I have reinstated a version without pronouns, for now, as several editors with different perspectives have suggested. Newimpartial (talk) 20:17, 7 August 2021 (UTC)
Newimpartial There is a lot of "I have done this" and not enough of "We have agreed on that" in your updates. Please try working with other editors in reaching a consensus on this point instead of instantaneous revisions. --GimmeChoco44 (talk) 20:36, 7 August 2021 (UTC)
The policy WP:CONLEVEL mandates that site-wide consensus, as embodied in MOS:GENDERID, takes priority over local consensus. Your revert is not compliant with this community-wide consensus. Newimpartial (talk) 20:40, 7 August 2021 (UTC)
Newimpartial - Please help us locate a direct reliable source for the quote that's at the root of this change, and we'll all support your changes. Unitl the source is verified, this issue will keep coming up. The multiple copies of copies of the same citation (of a subjective recollection of a livestream) won't help us. --GimmeChoco44 (talk) 20:56, 7 August 2021 (UTC)
Multiple, reliable sources have been provided at ANI, as you should know. Drop the horse carcass, please. Newimpartial (talk) 21:01, 7 August 2021 (UTC)
@GimmeChoco44: we are not independent researchers, it's not our job to "verify" the work of reliable sources and publish our own original research on the matter. Regardless, the source of the clip is here:, at 2:32. That took me about a minute or so to find, so I'm sure if you cared to look you would've found it too. ‑‑Volteer1 (talk) 21:06, 7 August 2021 (UTC)
@GimmeChoco44: The burden of proof is on you to show that she/her are Hikaru's pronouns and should be used instead of the neutral singular they. Even if it is debated that Hikaru is non-binary, we would still use singular they, as that is gender neutral, so it can be applied to anyone. Usage of gendered-pronouns require reliable sources because they imply a gender identity, whereas gender-neutral pronouns do not. ––𝗙𝗼𝗿𝗺𝗮𝗹𝗗𝘂𝗱𝗲 talk 22:03, 7 August 2021 (UTC)
On the same point, the video which ANN is citing is a fan upload of the livestream found here: . So I feel that the issue can now be resolved by shifting the article to non-binary pronouns.
-- And Volteer1 -- saying things like "if you cared" falls into the same category of inappropriate discourse that Newimpartial's comments fall into. We can arrive at a group decision a lot easier by keeping cool heads and being polite. --GimmeChoco44 (talk) 21:14, 7 August 2021 (UTC)
@GimmeChoco44: So you support switching to non-binary pronouns in the article? If so I think we're quite close to resolving this dispute. ––𝗙𝗼𝗿𝗺𝗮𝗹𝗗𝘂𝗱𝗲 talk 22:08, 7 August 2021 (UTC)
That's correct. My issue had been identifying the "independent, reliable source". Now that it's been identified, we can secure this new version with non-binary pronouns and protect the article from further debate. --23:51, 7 August 2021 (UTC)

Newimpartial (talk) 01:12, 10 August 2021 (UTC)

  • I've already commented above about the pronouns, but we should not be using any gendered categories at this time—that includes non-binary categories. Mountain out of a molehill anyway, as readers very rarely actually use the categories. — Bilorv (talk) 20:22, 10 August 2021 (UTC)
  • Oppose they/them pronouns. The independent source, while reliable, says nothing about pronouns, and to claim it foes would be original research. It does reliably claim that Utada is non-binary, but that is independent of pronouns. I'd like to point once again to Rebecca Sugar, a non-binary who uses female pronouns. Until Utada herself says something about pronouns, and not just non-binary status, stick with the status quo. Newimpartial keeps pointing us to MOS:GENDERID to have the pronouns be they/them, but MOS:GENDERID quotes Refer to any person whose gender might be questioned with gendered words (e.g. pronouns, "man/woman", "waiter/waitress") that reflect the person's latest expressed gender self-identification as reported in the most recent reliable sources, even if it does not match what is most common in sources.. By this logic, pronouns should be she/her until Utada directly addresses her pronouns, not just her gender. Unnamed anon (talk) 23:14, 13 August 2021 (UTC)
    • But Utada's last expressed gender self-identification is non-binary, not female. While some non-binary AFAB people use female or female/neutral pronouns, others use male pronouns (e.g., Elliot Page, many more prefer neutral pronouns, and it would be EXTRAORDINARY to claim that Utada prefers female pronouns at this time, particularly since we have reliable sources stating the opposite.
    • However, the frozen version of the article used neither female nor neutral pronouns fo3 Utada, so we have time to wait and accumulate sources before contemplating change. There should certainly be no change back to female pronouns without a supporting source that postdates Utada's nonbinary announcement. Newimpartial (talk) 01:12, 14 August 2021 (UTC)

Has a formal RfC been opened? The !votes above suggest yes, but there is no indication of such having happened despite what looks like a general agreement for one. In the interim, the version without any pronouns at all does feel to be an adequate compromise—and a valid alternative overall per AngusWoof. ~Cheers, TenTonParasol 20:58, 13 August 2021 (UTC)

@TenTonParasol: There is not a formal request for comment open. I'd be willing to start one though, I have a knack for formalities 😉 ––𝗙𝗼𝗿𝗺𝗮𝗹𝗗𝘂𝗱𝗲 talk 21:01, 13 August 2021 (UTC)
  • Oppose gender-neutral pronouns for now Put simply, this comment is very difficult to read as a statement of gender-identity, at least to me (as a cisgender, unmarried male who speaks English natively and has near-native proficiency in Japanese). It is specifically about titles (presumably Utada has been required to circle/tick one or another option on English-language forms), not pronouns. Somewhat tellingly, Utada's official Twitter account does not list any preferred pronouns despite recent Twitter trends; there's a lot of speculation (which I won't link to) among random Twitter-denizens about her pronouns, with some insisting, as others have done above here, that she "is non-binary" and "uses they/them pronouns now" and others saying they've been unable to find evidence of such.
We have no evidence that the subject has a problem with female-gendered pronouns. The Instagram post is about honorifics (something we don't need to worry about at all, per MOS:SURNAME), and given that Utada is a native speaker of Japanese (wherein common honorifics, with the partial exception of -kun, are mostly gender-neutral, almost no honorifics relate to marital status, and it's pretty rare to refer to a married woman as -fujin), it is likely very difficult for most editors of English Misplaced Pages, even those with a focus on J-Pop, to interpret her statements correctly in their original context (even if such "interpretations" were generally acceptable with Anglo-American subjects). Extrapolating from the above-linked Instagram post (which says It makes me uncomfortable to be identified so markedly by my marital status or sex, and I don’t relate to any of those prefixes.) that Utada self-identifies as non-binary, not female is very, very problematic and I would say violates BLP: indeed, the post actually refers to "female" as "my ... sex", and just says that the subject doesn't like using "prefixes" based on sex and marital status.
To make a hypothetical comparison, if a Japanese popstar was biologically male and had been universally identified as male for decades, and if traditional English titles identified both men and women, or just men, by their marital status (but Japanese honorifics were identical to how they are in the real world), and said popstar posted in English on social media that he didn't want to use a title that is based on a combination of sex and marital status, we would almost certainly not be asking the questions of whether he should be called "non-binary" and whether we should change the pronouns (which are different from titles, in that our articles use the former but not the latter). Another comparison, perhaps easier-to-understand for non-bilingual editors, would be that if, say, Judi Dench said she didn't want to be identified as "Dame", such a comment could very easily be interpreted as indicating discomfort with traditional titles of nobility, or with how such traditional titles are gender-exclusive in some cases but not others, and anyone claiming that such a comment constituted a statement of gender identity would likely be laughed at. (Just to be clear, Judi Dench was just the first name that came to mind; I have no evidence that she would ever make such a comment, and I'm sure there are better examples I could have given of people who might make, or even have made, such comments.)
All that being said, if Utada does make an explicit statement of non-binary gender identity or gives "preferred pronouns" in some form, then I would be happy to change my !vote. All I am saying is that for now, we simply don't have any reliable sources that support the proposed change, and the source that has been cited is apparently being misinterpreted by those supporting the proposed change.
Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 03:12, 16 August 2021 (UTC)
@Hijiri88: I think you've done a good job explaining why we should use gender neutral pronouns. At the very least we know Utada does not prefer to be labeled based on their sex. That alone is good enough reason to use gender neutral pronouns, which are commonplace in English language. If there is ever any contention on a subject's gender identity, we should use gender-neutral pronouns, as they are usable for anyone, including cisgender people.
P.S. Are you aware the article already describes Utada as non-binary in the Personal Life section? ––𝗙𝗼𝗿𝗺𝗮𝗹𝗗𝘂𝗱𝗲 talk 03:30, 16 August 2021 (UTC)
Arrgh. I did not see that, no. Hmm... I'll have to reconsider my stance, then; is the archive of the livestream in question still accessible? The ANN article in question includes a direct quote, but it also opens by saying Singer Hikaru Utada announced on Instagram on Friday that they are nonbinary., with a link to the aforementioned Instagram post that definitely does not constitute by itself an "announce ... that they are nonbinary". I will admit that I am editing somewhat outside my wheelhouse here: if a non-specialist wrote an article for a news website that said that such-and-such pre-modern male waka poet's writing in the persona of a woman (for example) constituted an "announcement" of "being nonbinary", such a source could be easily dismissed as having been written by someone who had no idea what they are talking about (and such things have definitely happened many, many times with people citing ANN and other such sources in Misplaced Pages articles on academic topics, which has somewhat biased me against such sources), but I rarely edit either J-Pop (or pop culture in general) articles or articles on LGB or gender identity topics, so in this case I'm the non-specialist (and I know I'm in the minority regarding the "general reliability" of pop culture sources). This is, of course, not a "vote", so my comment can be taken for what it's worth in light of the fact that I hadn't noticed that our article already explicitly calls her non-binary, citing a source that I personally consider to be sub-par but others probably don't. Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 03:43, 16 August 2021 (UTC)
I agree that looking at that livestream directly may be a good idea. And that is a good point that ANN inferring that from the mere Instagram post is a bad sign for them as a source. If the livestream said it, then Utada is non-binary. FormalDude, while perhaps it is technically true that singular they is usable for anyone, including cisgender people, the fact is that in the general culture, use of "they" for a specific known person strongly implies that the person identifies as non-binary. Going without pronouns is definitely the safest option in this case. Crossroads 04:00, 16 August 2021 (UTC)
I disagree with the notion that the Singular they has any implication of a person's gender identity. It is explicitly gender neutral, which can be confusing, because it sounds similar to "non-binary", but it is not at all the same as being "non-binary". Gender neutral means a lack of gender definition, or that it can be applied to all genders indiscriminately. ––𝗙𝗼𝗿𝗺𝗮𝗹𝗗𝘂𝗱𝗲 talk 04:11, 16 August 2021 (UTC)
Addendum: I just saw this. By the way, perhaps the bit about Mx. should be cut? It's sourced to ANN and Instagram, but we shouldn't be implying that dislike of English female honorifics necessarily means that someone is nonbinary. Only the self-declaration establishes that. Crossroads 04:05, 16 August 2021 (UTC)
I'd agree with cutting or moving the Mx. portion, so as not to imply that is the reason they are non-binary. ––𝗙𝗼𝗿𝗺𝗮𝗹𝗗𝘂𝗱𝗲 talk 04:17, 16 August 2021 (UTC)
No worries, I am not an expert in this field either–I think few Wikipedians are. It seems like you're more concerned with the gender identity claim rather than the use of particular pronouns, which I agree is a secondary but relative matter to the subject's gender identity. I found another corroborating source for the non-binary claim, which I added to the article. It will probably be hard to find an archive of the Instagram live stream, which is probably why we're using third-party sources (a primary source would be acceptable for gender identity, but we don't have one other than the unarchived live stream). ––𝗙𝗼𝗿𝗺𝗮𝗹𝗗𝘂𝗱𝗲 talk 04:06, 16 August 2021 (UTC)
It's kinda-off-topic (hence small text), since if our subject were unambiguously cisgender we probably would not be having this discussion, but in contemporary standard English usage, usable for anyone, including cisgender people is only really applicable in certain circumstances, such as an unspecified person whose gender is not known, a hypothetical person who doesn't have a known gender, or someone whose gender is being consciously hidden. As dated as season 7 of the American sitcom Friends is in many ways (the following season contained a very dated/cringeworthy reference to intersex individuals), it is somewhat telling that, when Rachel was pretending to have hired, as her assistant, a qualified elderly woman rather than an attractive young man with no experience, she repeatedly referred to "my new assistant" and avoided pronouns of any kind: "they/them" would, in the standard American English speech of the early 2000s, have given her away as deliberately concealing something; this "standard American English speech of the early 2000s" has changed somewhat in recent years, and people who were yet to be born as of 2000 might be surprised by this, but for the vast majority of cisgender article subjects who are as old as me or older, referring to them as "they/them" within their own articles (as opposed to speaking about them in general, as I am doing now), without any apparent reason, would come across as questioning their gender identity. Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 05:36, 16 August 2021 (UTC)
There you have it–I was born in 98', so I am most familiar with modern 21st century English. (I've never even seen a full episode of Friends!) ––𝗙𝗼𝗿𝗺𝗮𝗹𝗗𝘂𝗱𝗲 talk 05:43, 16 August 2021 (UTC)

@Hijiri88: @FormalDude: To clarify for those editors who commented above, the Instagram livestream which contains Utada's declaration of being non-binary is publicly available here. --GimmeChoco44 (talk) 05:15, 16 August 2021 (UTC)

Thanks! Now is when I'd appreciate @Hijiri88's translation skills. Does it match what the sources quote Utada as having said? ––𝗙𝗼𝗿𝗺𝗮𝗹𝗗𝘂𝗱𝗲 talk 05:26, 16 August 2021 (UTC)
Thanks! I'll watch it (and check on the Misplaced Pages policy for people who have self-identified as non-binary but have not specified preferred pronouns -- I suspect there might be non-binary people who don't mind using the pronouns that were assigned to them at birth, and, given how many people I've seen on Twitter talking about pronouns but not what Utada called "prefixes", it seems somewhat telling that Utada specifically stated a dislike of "Miss/Mrs./Ms." and said nothing about pronouns) later. Someone in the comments seems to have asked Utada what pronouns to use, only to be met with several people (probably trolls) referring to "Utada-sama" (how our subject is likely to be addressed in formal Japanese emails) as a "pronoun" and one person (likely also a troll) talking about Jesus. Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 05:36, 16 August 2021 (UTC)
BTW, -sama is not English, but Japanese, and pronouns are quite rare in Japanese. The commonest Japanese "pronouns" translated "he"/"him"/"his" and "she"/"her"/"her" literally mean "that one" and "that woman" respectively, and are often used as nouns meaning "boyfriend" and "girlfriend" respectively. These "pronouns" are also not inherently subjective/objective/possessive/etc. -- they are accompanied by postpositions such as wa, ga, o, ni, e, no, etc. that serve those purposes. Languages code things differently (my French is rusty, but IIRC French possessives do not specify the gender of the possessor as English and even Japanese, but does distinguish plural pronouns for all-female groups from all-male/mixed groups): given our subject's having been born and partially raised in the United States, it seems reasonable to assume our subject is familiar with both English and contemporary trends in usage among progressive American youth, but for the majority of our subject's -- a J-Pop artist's -- audience, for whom English is a special way of encoding Japanese that they are taught in secondary school (rather than a separate, living language), such concepts are (probably? again, not a specialist) quite alien. Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 05:48, 16 August 2021 (UTC)
Okay, well I guess that resolves it for me as far as content goes. I still really wish we could get a better source than ANN; I just noticed that they seem to confuse sexual orientation with gender identity, and do exactly what I referred to above (i.e., assume a song written in the persona of a fictional gay woman who can't be with her female friend romantically is a "tease" as to Utada's real-world sexual orientation and/or gender identity). Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 07:02, 16 August 2021 (UTC)
This just came to my attention, but the English version of Utada's official website still uses "she" twice and "her" well over a dozen times, while not using "they", "them" or "their" at all. Is this because Utada, as a non-binary Japanese, sees masculine and feminine singular pronouns (or adjectives?) as a part of the English language rather than a statement of gender identity? Or just a failure to update the website since March? Given that Utada's official Twitter profile doesn't give preferred pronouns and Utada's official website continues to use "she" and "her" almost two months after Utada "came out as non-binary", I think it would be inappropriate for us to speculate on the reason or reasons for these discrepancies and just continue to use the pronouns used on Utada's official website. Honestly, it seems like either Utada might have been talking to a monolingual American friend about a preference for Japanese third-person pronouns and honorifics that don't put so much emphasis on gender or marital status, said American friend might have said "Oh, are you non-binary?", and things went from there, or Utada initially expressed a dislike for the "Mr."/"Miss"/"Mrs." trichotomy in English (I'm pretty sure I've heard of Japanese EFL learners being told that "Mrs." means -fujin, which is technically true in Japanese but no one would think referring to a married woman as "-fujin" and never as "-san" is acceptable, so the translation is less than ideal; marital status, of course, has nothing to do with gender identity, and indeed in a lot of places and times it has had very little to do with sexual orientation or even romantic affinity) on Instagram or elsewhere and non-japonophone fans started extrapolating that Utada had self-identified as non-binary -- this is exactly what the opening line of the ANN article does, and it's what many people in this thread were doing for more than a month until Volteer finally posted the CQqsEK3JwaG link (wherein Utada actually does self-identify as "non-binary" in both English and Japanese) on 7 August. Given all of this, I think we should just say "Utada self-identified as non-binary in an Instagram livestream" without explicit comment on pronouns, and just continue to use feminine pronouns, with maybe a WP:COMMENT telling people not to change the pronouns to conform to how they think non-binary people should be referred to. Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 02:08, 17 August 2021 (UTC)

Rewording Mx. sentence

Adding a break bc long section and also separate topic coming out of this. On what to do about the Mx. portion, mentioned way above, would it be possible to reword to separate the concepts? Because they feel both to be important as far as personal identity, just not necessarily related. There's likely a more elegant way to do this, but something like: "In discussing dislike for prefixes such as "Ms." and "Mrs.", Utada expressed support for the gender neutral prefix Mx. and also suggested Mys., a shortening of "mystery". On June 26, 2021, Utada came out as non-binary during an Instagram livestream."

Or, even leveraging the sentence about same-sex marriage: "On June 26, 2021, Utada came out as non-binary during an Instagram livestream. Utada has expressed support for same-sex marriage and for usage of the gender neutral prefix Mx., having also suggested a prefix Mys., a shortening of "mystery"." ~Cheers, TenTonParasol 16:50, 16 August 2021 (UTC)

Thanks @TenTonParasol, I think either of those are good ideas for wording the sentence. ––𝗙𝗼𝗿𝗺𝗮𝗹𝗗𝘂𝗱𝗲 talk 19:01, 16 August 2021 (UTC)
"prefix" is incorrect. Utada used it, presumably either as a simple error or because Japanese equivalents like -san, -sama, -dono, etc. are classified as postfixes in Japanese. Can we say "titles"? Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 00:01, 17 August 2021 (UTC)
"Titles" works fine for me. ––𝗙𝗼𝗿𝗺𝗮𝗹𝗗𝘂𝗱𝗲 talk 00:41, 17 August 2021 (UTC)
I'm also not a big fame of "came out"; Utada did not say "I am proud to announce that" or anything to that effect, and in Japanese この数年で知って「あっ、それなんだ！」って思ったけど、日本でどれぐらい広まっていることかわからないけど「non-binary」に該当するなって最近知ったので it sounds even less like "coming out". The currently cited secondary source is definitely not sufficient to solve this, since they clearly did not ask Utada for clarification and seem to go as far as misidentifying "non-binary" with being gay or bisexual (by referencing a song apparently written shortly after Utada gave birth to a child with her/their then-husband, to whom she/they would remain married for another two years). Could we say Utada self-identified as non-binary during an Instagram livestream instead? Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 02:08, 17 August 2021 (UTC)
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