Misplaced Pages

Revision as of 19:40, 31 January 2007

${\displaystyle \star }$  Some principles governing this talk page  ${\displaystyle \star }$ Please observe Misplaced Pages:Etiquette and Talk Page Etiquette here. This talk page is my territory, and I assume janitorial responsibility for it. I may, without notice, refactor comments to put like with like, correct indents, or retitle sections to reflect their contents more clearly. While I reserve the right to delete comments, I am normally opposed to doing so and use archives instead. If I inadvertently change the meaning, please contact me! When all else fails, check the edit history. -- Fyslee

${\displaystyle \star }$  Regarding posting (or reposting) of my personal info at Misplaced Pages  ${\displaystyle \star }$ ${\displaystyle \star }$  DON'T DO IT!!  ${\displaystyle \star }$ Lately I have become more sensitive to the posting of personal information about myself here at Misplaced Pages. I am the target of cyberstalking and hate mail from some pretty unbalanced people and regularly receive threats (including occasional death threats). While I don't normally have any reason to hide my true identity, any past revealings by myself should not be construed by others as license to do it here at Misplaced Pages, where only my "Fyslee" tag should be used. While such revealings here have often been done innocently, I still reserve the right to delete such personal information posted here at Misplaced Pages by others. My own and my family's security is at stake here, and I would appreciate support in this matter. Thanks. -- Fyslee

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Request for Mediation

This user page is currently inactive and is retained for historical reference. If you want to revive discussion regarding the subject, you might try contacting the user in question or seeking broader input via a forum such as the village pump.

Misplaced Pages:Requests for mediation/OpenNote is deprecated. Please see User:MediationBot/Opened message instead.

✎ Peter M Dodge ( Talk to Me • Neutrality Project ) 23:14, 17 January 2007 (UTC)

Thank you. I'll go read up on this. Ilena 23:45, 17 January 2007 (UTC)

I do not understand why there is a request for mediation on an article that seems to have stabilized, and is pretty neutral now. I admit that I am mystified.Jance 05:20, 18 January 2007 (UTC)

I agree. The article is not a current issue, while the announcement of the RfM was made in the context of discussions about her making of serious charges against myself. That is the relevant issue. -- Fyslee 07:21, 18 January 2007 (UTC)

If you're interested, Peter is answering questions about the RfM on Wikipedia_talk:Requests_for_mediation/Barrett_v._Rosenthal. --Ronz 03:29, 20 January 2007 (UTC)

A Request for Mediation to which you are a party was not accepted and has been delisted. You can find more information on the mediation subpage, Misplaced Pages:Requests for mediation/Barrett v. Rosenthal. For the Mediation Committee, Essjay (Talk) This message delivered by MediationBot, an automated bot account operated by the Mediation Committee to perform case management. If you have questions about this bot, please contact the Mediation Committee directly.

Some wise words of advice to Ilena

(Copied from the block warning here.)

Added here by Fyslee 09:48, 18 January 2007 (UTC)

She failed to heed the words of advice, and was then blocked for 24 hrs.. -- Fyslee 09:51, 18 January 2007 (UTC)

That blocked has been extended to one week. Ilena's block log -- Fyslee 11:52, 20 January 2007 (UTC)

Defusing the situation

I am going to make an attempt to somewhat defuse this situation by editing some of my later posts (just follow my edit history to see where I do it, and notify me on my talk page if I miss any that should be changed).

My offer to Ilena still stands, but Ilena is refusing to accept my offer for her to provide diffs and evidence for her serious charges against me, and now she has found what she attempts to use as an illegitimate excuse to turn the tables, which is just another attempt to avoid providing proof of her very serious charges against me. No, it's her turn to provide evidence, not my turn.

I am now going to begin removing that illegitimate excuse by editing my posts. She won't like it, but I'm being totally upfront and transparent in my actions, and this is a good faith effort to simplify things. I'm going to replace any of my uses of the words "libel" and "attack" with "charges", or something like that, as the situation warrants. Since I have never had, or even hinted at, any intent to sue her, the point of whether a specific charge of hers is "libelous" or not is moot. I regularly get libelled and receive death threats without going to the police or courts, and this situation is no different.

She can't deny that she has been making such charges (which at Misplaced Pages are considered attacks against another editor), and thus her obligation to provide evidence still stands. -- Fyslee 08:48, 18 January 2007 (UTC)

Wizardry Dragon (Peter M. Dodge)

Have you seen the black box on his user page, second from top? It might explain a lot. I suggest holding off on RFC for a bit. Regards, Durova 01:21, 19 January 2007 (UTC)

From WP:AN

I suspect you have this discussion bookmarked as you have participated in it, but I wanted to make sure that you read this:

Fyslee, I always have been the first person to admit that Ilena's behaviour is poor, the dfference between me and others, is that I'm trying to fix it instead of sanction her from it. However, you need to realize that your own behaviour is also at fault here. I suggest that either you extend an olive branch to Ilena and offer to forget and/or forgive, or to try to disengage from the situation. It takes two to tango. If you won't feed her bad behaviour, then either she will stop, or she will continue and be blocked. I'm sure as far as you are concerned, either is a desirab;e outcome, so why not try it? Cheers, ✎ Peter M Dodge ( Talk to Me • Neutrality Project ) 19:18, 19 January 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for the notification. I'm in the Danish time zone and hadn't seen it yet after a busy day. I have over 1100 items on my watchlist and am right now working on finding the diffs that have been requested of me, even though Ilena hasn't complied with multiple requests from several editors to do the same. We haven't even gotten close to that situation. She just recycles her accusations without providing any proof. I hope you realize that they are extreme misrepresentations of some slight facts. She twists things so they are hardly recognizable. So far she has refused to accept the olive branch I still offer her on my talk page. I have lost hope of her doing so, and you haven't been effective at getting her to cease all other activities and concentrate on doing that alone. As you should know, an accusation carries less-than-no-weight (as to its possible truthfulness) until precisely documented so all can understand it. Until then it stands as an undocumented charge designed to damage the person attacked, which is quite unethical. I am willing to lay low, but I expect you to then do your duty (as her mentor and what amounts to an Adopt-a-user) by defending me and censoring her. That's your duty. It is not your duty to defend her, except if she is being treated unfairly. She should not be defended when she violates policies and attacks others. She needs you to teach her about proper behavior here. I have only protested and tried to defend myself, primarily by repeatedly demanding evidence. For that you have treated me as an aggressor, which is very unfair. Not being allowed to defend oneself is very unjust. It's all very sad. I still find your intentions regarding mentoring her to be quite honorable. It's probably because you were unfamiliar with her (she's extremely infamous on Usenet and in anti-spam groups) that you even volunteered to try to help her. Good for you. No one else who knows her would have dared to try. -- Fyslee 20:04, 19 January 2007 (UTC)

• If I may be so bold, it was probably because it had conditions attached, and came off as "I'll back off if you do x y and z" - it wasn't unreasonable, but sure you can see why she refused it. Personally, I believe Taxman had a point. While Ilena's claims were the more damaging, you've also made some disparaging comments towards her as well, and those aren't acceptable either. If you would just leave Ilena well enough alone, I think with a one week block, if you let her be, things might mend themselves with time. An apology for the comments you have made would definitely go a long way to vindicating yourself, if it ever does come to the point of community bans. Strive to be better than her, and you cannot go wrong. Cheers, ✎ Peter M Dodge ( Talk to Me • Neutrality Project ) 20:16, 19 January 2007 (UTC)

nothing much

I am just pointing out that your QF site had an article where LP is mentioned as double Nobelist when you are heavily pro-QW, that's all. Sloppy writing in the wee hours. Thought you would appreciate the irony of a free QF link, too.--I'clast 12:06, 20 January 2007 (UTC)

Okay. Pauling was exceptional and contributed greatly to our knowledge base. That fact should never be taken from him. That doesnt' justify his later course of action, both scientifically or personally. -- Fyslee 12:33, 20 January 2007 (UTC)

My offer to Ilena - 2

Ilena, you have made many serious accusations against me. If I have done something wrong, then I'll be happy to examine the diffs and either explain or apologize (it wouldn't be the first time!). I am inviting you to present your case here. It needs to be

1. Very precise and specific accusations

2. One accusation at a time

3. Worded briefly

4. Precise quotes

5. With precise diffs and links

6. Civil in tone

I am more than willing to work with you (as I have stated previously), and help you add information, even when that information does not conform to my own POV. Just ask for my help. I believe in the inclusion of differing POV, as long as they are encyclopedic, are from verifiable, reliable, and good sources, and without any WP:OR. If you doubt my intentions regarding the application of NPOV to opposing POV, just ask User:Dematt, a chiropractor whom I admire very highly. We have had a very good working relationship, and he can vouch for the fact that I allow much content to remain that is not in harmony with my POV, as long as it is added in a collaborative spirit, and is not in violation of any Misplaced Pages policies and guidelines. -- Fyslee 14:02, 20 January 2007 (UTC)

Mediation

I must have missed something, what was your reaosn for rejecting mediation? I think it might have helped. Email me if you prefer. Guy (Help!) 20:31, 20 January 2007 (UTC)

I'll repost my answer below:

Why I (Fyslee) didn't wish to participate

I am rather surprised to see my so-called "rejection" of mediation being discussed in a manner that makes it appear I did something wrong. Maybe I haven't understood what an RfM is all about. I have clearly expressed why I did not want to be a part of the RfM, but it appears to me that no one has read my explanation, or they do not agree with it and are not explaining why. I wish they would read the following and then discuss their reaction to my reasoning.

• I have misunderstood something about the purpose of the RfM, I would like to be corrected.

• If I have done something wrong by not participating, I'd like to know what it was so it doesn't happen again.

My reasons are clearly explained on the RfM page, its talk page, and a couple of other places, as well as the edit summaries. Here are the links:

• http://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Misplaced Pages:Requests_for_mediation/Barrett_v._Rosenthal&action=history

• http://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Wikipedia_talk:Requests_for_mediation/Barrett_v._Rosenthal&action=history

• http://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=User_talk:Wizardry_Dragon&diff=prev&oldid=101444539

• http://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=User_talk:Wizardry_Dragon&diff=prev&oldid=101446810

Here are my statements in chronological order with the diffs (taken out of context, and without the edit summaries):

• 1. If I am not to be allowed to provide the requested evidence of my attempts to deal with her attacks, then what's going on? Have I misunderstood your RfM? It was made in the specific context of her personal attacks on myself, so why is it described as an RfM regarding Barrett v. Rosenthal? That is not currently an issue under discussion. If I'm not to be allowed to discuss the current problem, then maybe you shouldn't have added my name and obligated me to a lot more wasted time. Please explain and maybe I'll withdraw. -- Fyslee 23:45, 17 January 2007 (UTC)

• 2. Okay, I misunderstood. In the context it seemed like it would deal with the current, rather than (relatively) ancient B v. R discussion, but you're probably right. Unfortunately this RfM will divert attention from the basic issue underlying all of her presence here, which is to carry her Usenet personal attacks to wikipedia. They got her sued before, and because she was reposting what someone else wrote, she got away with it. Now she thinks she can continue here. Oh well, I'll just withdraw. -- Fyslee 23:56, 17 January 2007 (UTC)

• 3. Do not agree. This is an unnecessary revival (IOW recreating) of a not currently active issue, thus creating more controversy and wasting more time. It has been a problem, and if it becomes active again, then this might be valid. At present this functions as a diversion from the real and very serious current issue, which is an undeclared RfC on Ilena's conduct towards other editors. She is currently blocked for that behavior. -- Fyslee 10:09, 20 January 2007 (UTC)

• 4. Peter (Wizardry), I believe you have some serious misunderstandings and assumptions about this issue. To the best of my knowledge, Barrett and Rosenthal have never had any serious discussions over the issue of breast implants. Barrett doesn't even comment on them or write about them, or even criticize Rosenthal's position on the issue. (Barrett may have at some long distant point in the past expressed views common among MDs, but he's never made it an issue in his activities. He concentrates on other subjects.) I personally support much of her position on the subject, but find her activities to be very damaging to her cause.

The attacks made by Bolen and Rosenthal against Barrett (that have led to libel lawsuits) have nothing to do with the breast implant issues, but are regarding Barrett's anti-quackery activism. Bolen admits that he is paid by alternative medicine practitioners (who have run afoul of the law) to defend them. He does this primarily by spamming (yes the anti-spam community is very much against him) a newsletter which he himself describes as "opinion pieces". They are filled with conspiracy theory rhetoric, ad hominem attacks, straw man attacks, and other forms of serious personal attacks, including libelous statements for which he is now awaiting trial. (Under deposition he had to admit that very concrete statements presented as absolute fact were nothing more than "euphemism".)

The whole issue is about alternative medicine practitioners, producers, and scammers, who don't like their methods getting exposed to criticism on Quackwatch. Rosenthal is among those who doesn't like those methods being criticized, and without herself being criticized first, has gone on the warpath against Barrett. Anyone who happens to share Barrett's (which are essentially mainstream POV) viewpoints then gets attacked as "Barrett syncophants" or other epithets that are designed to make it appear that we are all working directly with or for Barrett, and are paid by the pharmaceutical industry. Nothing could be further from the truth. -- Fyslee 10:25, 20 January 2007 (UTC) &

• 5. Misguided RfM that should be canned

If there is to be any RfM regarding Ilena and the breast implant issue, then Barrett v. Rosenthal is not the right subject for an RfM. A different RfM that might be relevant (if there is any dispute there -- I don't know), could be titled:

• ]

This current RfM is totally off-base. It was announced and presented on the page and in the middle of a discussion of Ilena's personal behavior here at Misplaced Pages, which had nothing to do with breast implants, so when I followed the link and ended here, I was baffled. There was no "connect" between the current controversy, the situation in which it was announced, the place it was announced, or the reality of the situation. It was like a long dead ghost was suddenly being introduced into another discussion. The proper thing would have been to create an RfC:

• ]

This RfM is misguided, ill-timed, and off-topic. It should be canned. -- Fyslee 11:38, 20 January 2007 (UTC)

Copied relevant comment from above:

• This is an unnecessary revival (IOW recreating) of a not currently active issue, thus creating more controversy and wasting more time. It has been a problem, and if it becomes active again, then this might be valid. At present this functions as a diversion from the real and very serious current issue, which is an undeclared RfC on Ilena's conduct towards other editors. She is currently blocked for that behavior. -- Fyslee 11:38, 20 January 2007 (UTC)

This RfM was simply the wrong venue and misapplied, so the error was not mine, but the error of the one who started the RfM in the first place. It should have never been raised, but something does need to be done, likely an RfC. That would indeed be appropriate. The issue is her attitude and behavior anywhere at Misplaced Pages, not the content of the Barrett v. Rosenthal article. Content matters can always be worked out through collaborative editing. Editors who refuse to collaborate need to have their attitude and behavior subjected to an RfC. That's the issue here. Misplaced Pages should not be used to further her Usenet wars, especially since I have never participated in them.

Again, please explain any errors in my reasoning. I am trying to learn here and am more than willing to correct errors. -- Fyslee 01:41, 21 January 2007 (UTC)

Now I find this message posted to my talk page while I was composing the above:

• Since you have refused mediation, I have opened a formal Request for Arbitration regarding the matter. You may wish to make a statement. You may do so on the page here. Cheers, ✎ Peter M Dodge ( Talk to Me • Neutrality Project ) 01:21, 21 January 2007 (UTC)

Is this unnecessary and unprovoked escalation really necessary? I suggest that it be withdrawn and that the proposer (the same one who improperly proposed the RfM) disengage as he is not an impartial party to this matter, but has all too often favorized and defended Ilena in her actions, contrary to the first stated personal "philosophy" on his own user page: "I avoid taking sides in disputes." He has even prevented me from providing evidence in the form of diffs, and deleted them. -- Fyslee 01:52, 21 January 2007 (UTC)

Arbitration

Since you have refused mediation, I have opened a formal Request for Arbitration regarding the matter. You may wish to make a statement. You may do so on the page here. Cheers, ✎ Peter M Dodge ( Talk to Me • Neutrality Project ) 01:21, 21 January 2007 (UTC)

Copying my reply:

• Is this unnecessary and unprovoked escalation really necessary? I suggest that it be withdrawn and that the proposer (the same one who improperly proposed the RfM) disengage as he is not an impartial party to this matter, but has all too often favorized and defended Ilena in her actions, contrary to the first stated personal "philosophy" on his own user page: "I avoid taking sides in disputes." He has even prevented me from providing evidence in the form of diffs, and deleted them. -- Fyslee 01:52, 21 January 2007 (UTC)

Well, Peter admits that it's not because "you have refused mediation", but this seems to be going ahead regardless. I've barely even looked at an RfA, so I'm turning to you as someone that appears to have more familiarity. (Please point me to someone more knowledgeable of and/or appropriate for such questions, as well as some documentation if it exists.)

• First, there doesn't appear to be a discussion page for it, which is why I'm writing here. Am I missing one?
• Assuming there is none, do you know if and how the scope can be clarified? As I interpret his statement, Peter has defined his perspective to be on what has happened since the Dec 26 AN, and some events immediately prior to it.

--Ronz 17:25, 21 January 2007 (UTC)

I have just replied to him. You may want to follow my strategy, otherwise we are tilting at windmills. This whole business makes me wonder how many people Ilena has driven to suicide. I've never had her so in-my-face before since I have always avoided her. Most people I deal with everyday are pretty reasonable, but when such hatred gets forced on me it hits pretty hard. -- Fyslee 18:18, 21 January 2007 (UTC)

turn the other cheek

please be careful and remember the golden rule. --Dematt 15:44, 21 January 2007 (UTC)

Thanks Dematt. As always you have some wise advice. I know what you mean, but I have another twist on it....;-) I have already been turning the other cheek, both of them. I've been forced to kiss my own a** cheeks by the editor who has raised this ruckus, and been pushed into the mud as if I was guilty, just because I have been accused without evidence of wrongdoing and tried to feebly defend myself. Oh well, that's life. Have you been following the situation closely from the sidelines? If so, I might want to call on your help (off-wiki) as an advisor. It is always better for me to have a critical eye proofread my stuff before submitting it. Otherwise I end up with foot-in-mouth problems. I know that I can trust you to be brutally honest in a very helpful way. That's what I need, not just some yes-man. -- Fyslee 16:06, 21 January 2007 (UTC)

Yes, I have been watching. This is definitely a tough one, but not insurmountable. Basically, this is Chiropractic on a much larger scale with more personalities and people. It stems from the fact that you both have strong opinions on polar opposites of the same issue. In another life, with another issue, you could well both appreciate each others support and would make strong allies. But, that is not the case, here. This really has nothing to do with either of you, this has to do with Barrett. Remember that he is the controversial one that is being written about, not you. Comments directed at you are because you defend Barrett, it's not really personal. Treat llena the way you would like to be treated and keep turning the other cheek - there is always the other cheek. She is not irrational, she just wants to be heard and if you stop and listen, then maybe she'll listen to you. --Dematt 16:46, 21 January 2007 (UTC)

You are certainly welcome to bounce anything off me that you want. I'm not sure I've got any answers but I'll do what I can. --Dematt 19:50, 23 January 2007 (UTC)

You may not have all the answers, but you are always fair. When are you going to seek adminship? I'll vote for you. -- Fyslee 21:28, 23 January 2007 (UTC)

Well, then... with your vote, that makes one! :) --Dematt 03:12, 24 January 2007 (UTC)

RFAr

If it is accepted I will comment but I don't really view myself as an involved party.Geni 15:46, 21 January 2007 (UTC)

• I feel compelled to note that I did not change the title of the RFAR, I originally titled it "Fyslee, Ilena, et al." (Which is what jpgordon's comment was directed at). It was later changed by Thatcher. Cheers, ✎ Peter M Dodge ( Talk to Me • Neutrality Project ) 22:17, 21 January 2007 (UTC)

I am aware of that and I protested the change to no avail. Your version was correct, but others have decided it should be changed. Your title reflected the fact that the main problem involved myself and Ilena, even though other editors played their parts. We'll see how things go. I am eagerly awaiting Ilena's contributions. I want to see her accusations worded and documented in such a precise manner that I can understand them and attempt to rebut them. If I fail to do so, then I can learn from them, reform, and apologize if I have wronged anyone. -- Fyslee 22:27, 21 January 2007 (UTC)

• Well, there's no need to get tied up over semantic changes, jpgordon and Kirill are well aware of the underlying issues, so I am sure that a simple name change won't phase them or mislead them. I, too, await Ilena's response, as I think it will more or less set the tone of the Arbitration. Cheers, ✎ Peter M Dodge ( Talk to Me • Neutrality Project ) 22:36, 21 January 2007 (UTC)

Talk:Quackwatch peer review discussion

I had moved the section in question to the WP:RS talk page because it had been crossposted there and the same discussion was going on, and the discussion was not appropriate for the Quackwatch talk page. In hindsight, I should have left a note on the Quackwatch talk page about the move, so I've left a notice pointing people to the correct page while still leaving the discussion there. --Philosophus 07:53, 24 January 2007 (UTC)

I have just discovered your explanation, instructions, and links to the new location, so go ahead and delete it now, but leave the heading and the redirecting links. It does take up a lot of space, and your intentions are honorable. -- Fyslee 08:02, 24 January 2007 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages:Requests for arbitration/Barrett v. Rosenthal

Hello,

An Arbitration case involving you has been opened: Misplaced Pages:Requests for arbitration/Barrett v. Rosenthal. Please add any evidence you may wish the arbitrators to consider to the evidence sub-page, Misplaced Pages:Requests for arbitration/Barrett v. Rosenthal/Evidence. You may also contribute to the case on the workshop sub-page, Misplaced Pages:Requests for arbitration/Barrett v. Rosenthal/Workshop.

On behalf of the Arbitration Committee, Newyorkbrad (Acting as Assistant to the Clerk) 23:51, 24 January 2007 (UTC)

Containing forest fires

Peter, I fear your deletion here suffers from a problem that has been chronic of your mentoring of Ilena. You have (possibly properly) deleted inflammatory material, but left the source of the flame -- OhSusanne's post, which is a repetition and even enlargement of Ilena's attacks. Why did you not delete hers on sight right away? I will at least give you credit for also deleting Ilena's reponse, but it was OhSusanne's post that started it, and it hurt. I had to exercise great restraint and heed the advice of several editors and admins, to keep from replying. But it would only have inflamed the situation, so I did what I have done many times during all of this ruccus -- laid low and not replied nearly as often as I have been provoked. I'd like to see some fairness here. --Fyslee 23:53, 25 January 2007 (UTC)

• I thought about removing the whole thing, but I didn't want to get another angry editor involved in this whole affair, and I don't think Susanne would've taken well to it. Cheers, ✎ Peter M Dodge ( Talk to Me • Neutrality Project )

I am copying this to your talk page so that you may see my response. Please reply on my talk page. ✎ Peter M Dodge ( Talk to Me • Neutrality Project ) 01:14, 26 January 2007 (UTC)

Copied from Peter's talk page.

Peter, I do sympathize with the dilemma that such situations present. One cannot please all people all the time. In the current situation with Ilena (and now OhSusanne), I have had ample opportunity to see you at work. I have during the whole mess considered your intention to help Ilena to be an honorable endeavor, but at the same time have felt it missed the mark in fundamental ways. This is just another example, and I'll explain what I mean.

The dilemma I mention above demands that one make a decision to deal differently with both sides in such a way that no one can later say one was unfair. Right now (with OhSusanne) you have done the same thing you have done many times with Ilena. You have chosen (certainly with no ill intent -- I do AGF!) to punish those who have been attacked, while doing little or nothing to (and sometimes even defending) the offender who has done the attacking. This places you in a position where it appears you defend offenders and punish their victims. It can appear that way to others, and to the victims it is a very unpleasant situation. We feel helpless, and even held down, while we watch you defend our tormenters. It has certainly caused me to leave her charges unopposed, which the search engines are now showing, no doubt to her glee. Usenet is now reflecting what is happening here, and I have received condolences from people I have never met! While I have rarely defended myself in this situation, I will do so in the RfA.

I certainly admit that I am not a paragon of tactfulness in all my replies and am attempting to become an adoptee, even though I'm an experienced editor her and elsewhere. So far my requests have been met with wonderment! I do need to learn how to deal with attacks in a better manner. (My openness, honesty, directness, and sense of justice, are sometimes a hindring.) In the current situation, even when the main content of my reply to an attack is perfectly good, there are things that sometimes can be read "between the lines," and some people (especially yourself) have judged me harshly for them, and ignored "all the lines themselves" that Ilena has written. Oh well, I'm learning from all of this. I just hope you will begin to side with the victims more often, and enforce the NPA policy more stringently against those who attack, than against those who defend themselves from those attacks.

One must always side with the victim, even while giving the victim constructive criticism about how to respond in a better manner. No one, most of all the attacker, should be in doubt about which side you are on. If the attacker sees you chastising their victim, they take it as a clear signal that you defend their actions, and thus you have (unwittingly) facilitated them in their continued attacks, and in fact become a party to them, even though that was not your intention. This whole mess could have been prevented, instead of actually accelerated, if you had adopted a firm approach towards Ilena right from the beginning. Large numbers of otherwise good editors could have been editing, instead of wasting time on all this mess, and the personal consequences could have been avoided. (They are much greater than you may realize.) We don't need Usenet battles here at Misplaced Pages.

This whole situation has been made even more ironic, in that you are the leader of the Neutrality Project, and the first point in your "Philosophy" box states "I avoid taking sides in disputes." That is a utopian dream. (You could reword it "I seek to be fair in disputes.") One must take sides in some situations, otherwise one appears to make no difference between the criminal and his victim (to take an everyday example). There is a difference between right and wrong. They are not equal, or things about which one can be "neutral". As far as OhSusanne is concerned, if she doesn't "take well" (your words above) to being dealt with in a manner that enforces Misplaced Pages policies and common decency, then she too (as with Ilena) has an attitude problem. Misplaced Pages has enough problems without rewarding such attitudes, or keeping their holders as editors.

Please do not delete this as a personal attack. It's not an attack, but a serious discussion of real issues. We are adults here and should be able to talk openly, as long as we do it in a civil manner. -- Fyslee 08:27, 26 January 2007 (UTC)

Replied to on my talk page. Cheers, ✎ Peter M Dodge ( Talk to Me • Neutrality Project ) 08:35, 26 January 2007 (UTC)

Take Heart

When someone plays the Nazi Card, you know the Hitler Zombie has started eating their brains.--Emilydcksn 03:55, 26 January 2007 (UTC)

No one understands the poor zombie! All he wants to do is eat some brains ... ✎ Peter M Dodge ( Talk to Me • Neutrality Project ) 04:00, 26 January 2007 (UTC) (Obviously preceeding response is not meant to be taken seriously.

Arbitration parties

Thank you for your message. A listing of the parties listing in the format you suggested appears on the main case page, here. I hope this helps. Newyorkbrad 20:22, 26 January 2007 (UTC)

It was just a suggestion....that could save us hopping back and forth between articles. BTW, it was I who added that format there....;-) -- Fyslee 20:36, 26 January 2007 (UTC)

Ah, that explains it ... I didn't recall putting it there myself. The party list usually isn't included on the Evidence page, but you can feel free to copy it into your own Evidence section as you are editing the section and then delete it when you're done. Newyorkbrad 20:42, 26 January 2007 (UTC)

I'll give it a try. It can be my little scratchpad, if that's allowable. If not, just let me know. (It would be easier if each person's entry just started with that format for their name.) -- Fyslee 21:06, 26 January 2007 (UTC)

Slipped disc vandalism

You blanked the page with this edit ]. This is considered to be vandalism and is not the way to solve an edit war. When pages are merged and redirected their history, including all previous versions of the page is kept. Nuttah68 13:05, 28 January 2007 (UTC)

Who was it that vandalized the redirect? The status there had been stable since August 30, 2006. I only restored it. That is not vandalism. User:Rebroad has clearly misunderstood the long history of this article, and has changed wikilinks to the new article, so if there is any accusation of vandalism to be made...... There was good discussion and agreement back then that the article should be merged and all the good content kept. That was done, and a redirect left in place. -- Fyslee 13:16, 28 January 2007 (UTC)

With the edit I have linked above you did not restore the article, you blanked it. Nuttah68 13:21, 28 January 2007 (UTC)

The article still exists. I only added the template. Things were happening pretty fast back then and the redirect should have been restored at the same time. No harm intended. I was just trying to restore things to the August 30, 2006 condition, and add the template. I forgot the redirect. An innocent mistake. Please help me restore things to the stable condition which existed before User:Rebroad misunderstood the situation. That user did not discuss anything with the other editors who had been involved back then. I assume good faith and believe it was a misunderstanding by an editor who didn't understand the articles's long history, and that an improved article already existed. (S)he simply started added wikilinks, changing existing wikilinks, and then reactivated a dead article by deleting the redirect. That's a very disturbing thing to do. To top it off that editor has made untrue statements about lack of mention of slipped disc in the Spinal disc herniation article. That is not true at all. -- Fyslee 13:36, 28 January 2007 (UTC)

Fyslee, the situation became unstable when you created the redirect back in August. How much time needs to elapse before you consider it to be stable? --Rebroad 16:10, 28 January 2007 (UTC)

This makes no sense rebroad. What situation became unstable? I don't understand why you are not editing the Spinal disc herniation article rather than forking this content? David D. (Talk) 22:31, 28 January 2007 (UTC)

I wish that made some sense, but I certainly don't see it. I think you should read what these administrators have to say: , . They understand the issues with the article, and Misplaced Pages's way of dealing with these situations.

It's always a good idea to contact the editors who were involved before doing such a radical things as undoing a redirect. That's a big no-no here. Many articles depend on redirects, and undoing one single redirect can orphan some articles, or at least cripple them. Articles and redirects have longs histories, with many editors involved who have worked hard and produced a lot through collaborative editing. It is an act of very poor judgment, an exercise of bad faith, and simply a slap in all their faces, when you single-handedly come along and undo their work.

If you really think there are other meanings to the term, then let's discuss them. If they can't fit into the Spinal disc herniation article, then let's make a true disambiguation page. (I love doing that!) But the old article should not be awakened to life. It has gone through a sort of metamorphosis and is now a much better article. -- Fyslee 19:28, 28 January 2007 (UTC)

Removing Evidence from Archives relevant to Arbitration

It appears that you have had the archives altered to remove evidence that could be damaging to your Arbitration case. I note these diffs reveal this. Since part of the vast amount of "attacks" you claim I made against you was your claim that it was I was revealing your personal identity, seeing to it that your own revelations of your personal identity were removed on January 26, 2007, seems relevant to be brought to the attention of the Arbitration Committee. Thank you. Ilena 14:10, 30 January 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for alerting me to that. I didn't know it had actually been done. I am concerned for my security, and am trying to not be quite as open as I have earlier been. I made a request to have the "edit history on my user page be deleted up to this diff from April 12, 2006? http://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=User:Fyslee&diff=prev&oldid=48182114 "

It looks like he did it! Don't worry about the arbitration. I'll back you up on that point. I have never addressed your accusation on that point, since it was true. It was just a statement of fact. Now I no longer wish anyone to use my real name at Misplaced Pages, for obvious reasons. When one gets threats, including death threats, from chiropractors and promoters of alternative medicine, there is no reason to make it too easy for them. I'll alert JzG to this message and he can comment if he wishes.

BTW, where have I made the claim you describe above as "that it was I was revealing your personal identity,..."? Please provide the diff. -- Fyslee 15:28, 30 January 2007 (UTC)

Death threats since December 2, 2006??? OMG!!! Really???? Do you make a police report? Please let us help protect you by posting evidence of these threats. Since you KNOW they are chiropractors and promoters of alternative medicine, they gave you their real names apparently??? This is a very serious accusation and one which I feel certain no one with integrity would make without clear evidence. Extremely serious. We await the evidence of these threats. Ilena 16:31, 30 January 2007 (UTC)

Unless he specifically accuses you of making or facilitating the threats, they don't need proof, nor does Fyslee or any other editor need a reason to decide to become more cautious about his identity. If he accuses you of deliberately revealing his identity after he decided to become more cautious, it might be an arbitration issue, but otherwise its irrelevant. Thatcher131 17:38, 30 January 2007 (UTC)

Please be extremely cautious in presenting any evidence relating to any real-life threats of death or physical harm on-wiki. Information of that nature should be e-mailed to the Arbitration Committee mailing list, and refer to the matter in your respective Evidence presentations on-wiki in general terms with the comment that specific evidence has been e-mailed privately. Newyorkbrad 16:45, 30 January 2007 (UTC)

What is the email address of the Arbitration Committee, please? Thank you. Ilena 16:49, 30 January 2007 (UTC)

You can e-mail your message to any active arbitrator, using the "Misplaced Pages e-mail" feature, with the request that he or she forward it to the entire list. Of course this goes for all participants in the case. Newyorkbrad 16:57, 30 January 2007 (UTC)

"Since December 2, 2006"...? Ilena, what are you talking about? Your mocking tone is not helpful..... -- Fyslee 17:05, 30 January 2007 (UTC)

On December 2, 2006, you posted this diff with your real world name and your Wiki name. Very, very recently. Obviously, if in fact, you had received death threats from chiropractors and promoters of alternative medicine before that date as you claim, you would not have done so. Claiming death threats is a very, very, very serious accusation ... especially since you also claim that you know who made these threats. If these accusations are indeed factual and substantiated, I want to help you. Ilena 17:32, 30 January 2007 (UTC)

I don't believe that would be wise. Stick to your knitting and let Fyslee stick to his. Thatcher131 17:38, 30 January 2007 (UTC)

Instead of foolishly rising to this b**t**g, I'll leave her to her speculations, and I'll also pass on accepting her offer of so-called "help". Enough for now. Next step is to see if JzG can restore things until after the RfA is over. -- Fyslee 17:56, 30 January 2007 (UTC)

• I removed personal data, as requested. All the arbs are admins, I think, so nothing will be concealed from them. There is nothing more to add, I think. Drama over, back to the encyclopaedia. Guy (Help!) 18:22, 30 January 2007 (UTC)

Okay. Thanks for your response. If it could be restored, I would appreciate it, but since it can't, that's the way it goes. Whatever the case may be, I have never denied that I have previously revealed by true identity. Now I want people to use my Fyslee identity here, no matter what I do myself, although I will try to also stick to it. The box at the top of this page explains my position on the matter. -- Fyslee 18:31, 30 January 2007 (UTC)

Making potentially false claims that chiropractors have issued death threats to you with no substantiating evidence, is, in my experienced opinion, another one of your underhanded attacks at the profession and an attempt to make yourself appear like a victim, worthy of sympathy. I worked for years with women who were indeed stalked and received real death threats, people whose privacy was in real need of protecting. These women did not post their own names on the internet and on Misplaced Pages as recently as last month. To compare yourself with true victims claiming privacy issues when a one second google shows your advertisements of yourself throughout the internet with your real name advertised for years and years, makes your death threat claims with no corroborating evidence fall short of any veracity. I am frustrated indeed, with going through my notes and realizing that you are tampering with evidence close to this Arbitration Case, forcing more work on me and on others. Ilena 19:49, 30 January 2007 (UTC)

Fyslee is under no obligation to prove anything to you. He is under no obligation to give any reason at all for wanting personal information removed. He is allowed to ask to have his user page deleted to remove personal information from the history (and since it's his user page not talk that is even less controversial). If you feel there is or was information in Fyslee's user page which is of relevance to an arbitration case and you want to cite it, then the Arbs can see it. If Fyslee asks for his user page history to be restored then he can, knowing that the personal information will become visible again. All clear? Good. Now click "Random article" and find something else to work on, eh? Guy (Help!) 20:08, 30 January 2007 (UTC)

History is now restored

As requested by myself, User:JzG has kindly restored the history of my user page.

• "I really do want to have the deletion undone. Ilena should not be able to use my good faith attempts to protect my privacy as another excuse to exercise bad faith and accuse me of wrongdoing. -- Fyslee 18:16, 30 January 2007 (UTC)"

Ilena, are you satisfied now? -- Fyslee 20:46, 30 January 2007 (UTC)

I'm still confused. You claimed you it wasn't your idea to change the archives, and Guy claimed he did it on request, so who requested the archives be changed if not you? Curious in the Jungles Ilena 20:54, 30 January 2007 (UTC)

Yes, you are very confused:

• "You claimed you it wasn't your idea to change the archives...." (Your words above)

I made no such claim. On the contrary. This is typical of your charges against me. You often claim I have said something, but you misquote my words, making your charges nonsensical and false. Now start presenting your case in the RfA. -- Fyslee 21:03, 30 January 2007 (UTC)

My sincere apologies. I read the first part of the diff. that read: "I didn't know it had actually been done." I just counted 381 instances of your real name and fyslee on the WWW, so I believe those will forgive me for having doubts that privacy is such an enormous issue with you as you claim. Since you were posting them together as recently as last month on Misplaced Pages, that also makes one doubt your veracity. That your alleged claims of death threats include chiropractors, who you regularly attack and label with pejorative, demeaning terms, and promoters of alternative medicine, another of your targets, it feels to me that those are subtle attacks on these people, with not a shred of evidence to back your claims. I have worked with women whose lives were in danger and had true privacy issues, and your "privacy concern" rings hollow to me, sorry. That you did your virtual shredding smack in the middle of this Arbitration, where evidence was going to be presented ... well, we'll let the Arbitrators decide. Ilena 21:25, 30 January 2007 (UTC)

Are you really wasting your time counting the times I've used my real name? Why? I have never denied it. It is only an issue because you refused to heed the warnings by others to not do so. That will be part of my documentation job. -- Fyslee 21:36, 30 January 2007 (UTC)

• Arbitration is thisaways: Misplaced Pages:Requests for arbitration/Barrett v. Rosenthal ✎ Peter M Dodge ( Talk to Me • Neutrality Project ) 21:38, 30 January 2007 (UTC)

This is exaclty what I mean, Ilena. What possible reason do you have for demanding that Fyslee produce 'evidence' of his claimed harassment/threats?

What would you do with the evidence, were he to produce it (which he has no need to do).

He has asked that you back off. Why don't you? Why are you insisting on making this an issue, when it should not be an issue at all? He asked you to respect his privacy here. The very simple way to handle that would be to respect his privacy here. Period. End of discussion. Jance 07:13, 31 January 2007 (UTC)

Hey did you know?

Did you know that CBP was looking for Alan Botnick to serve him with a lawsuit. Apparently he wrote a paper for Quackwatch and Barrett published it and CBP is suing both of them, but Botnick cannot be found. They have put an article in Clinical Chiropractic for anybody to help find him. Jim Turner is representing CBP. Let me know if you hear anything. --Dematt 21:58, 30 January 2007 (UTC)

Interesting! I haven't been at Chirotallk for some time now, so I don't know if he's posting there. It should be easy enough to do. Try to see what you can find. -- Fyslee 22:06, 30 January 2007 (UTC)

You were at Chirotalk at 6:06 this morning and took off your status as Administrator and changed your name to fys god. I would never have known about that site had you not linked there yesterday. I took copies last nite before your changes. Here you were telling people to sign up for Misplaced Pages Re: Life University Misplaced Pages entry« Reply #12 on Jun 5, 2006, 5:45am » . Thanks for the links to Allen Botnick, who apparently is a co-defendant with Barrett and Quackwatch and the moderator of this board you administered until 6:06 a.m. today. Have a lovely day. Ilena 15:02, 31 January 2007 (UTC)

Your cyberstalking is noted. Now please leave me alone. -- Fyslee 15:22, 31 January 2007 (UTC)

Really??? I was following YOUR LINKS. Fun game for you to always play victim. You have filled my talk page with your giant notices and false claims of victimhood. You dare to demand that I leave you alone after filling my talk page with your rants. I would never have known about your 3 years as Administrator with Allen Botnick on Chirotalk had you not given the link. That you removed yourself as Administrator there at 6:06 this morning is very notable ...especially after your cyber-shredding of evidence in the middle of this Arbitration was revealed yesterday. You're no victim, fyslee. Please stay off my talk page ... please keep your giant notices off it ... please leave my user page alone where you insist on meddling, and please stop whining and ordering me around. Thank you very much.Ilena 16:22, 31 January 2007 (UTC)

You may have followed my link, but the subject of the whole thread was about the founder of Chirotalk, and a link to it had already been posted by Levine2112 about 1½ hours before mine. As far as posting on your talk page, as you have done on mine, I have tried (before your indignant post above) to limit my last posts there to noting that I have answered your double postings (to both talk pages) on my own talk page, rather than answering on your talk page, so your complaint above rings rather hollow. Now please leave me alone and respect my privacy. -- Fyslee 19:40, 31 January 2007 (UTC)