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2006 discussions

Confused by Citations

I read the abstracts of several the studies that the author of this passage cites, and I was confused to read that they consistently supported the NSA claim that Juice Plus has research showing significant improvement along important heatlh indicators. Only the Berkeley Wellness newsletter appeared to be accurately summarized by this article (the newsletter was not reporting any research). This newsletter is critical of Juice Plus, and the author reported that. The Sloan Kettering Cancer Foundation, though, appeared to be misrepresented in this article. Their website indicated a neutral stance on Juice Plus, but this article reported a negative view for the Foundation.

The author is right to point out the need for randomized, double-blind, placebo controlled, studies to demonstrate the efficacy of Juice Plus. But I am concerned that the author misrepresents the studies of Juice Plus that do achieve this rigor. It appears to me that the author has taken advantage of the fact that research findings take lots of time and lots of studies before anything can be proven conclusively.

I do have a stake in this question because I am a new Juice Plus distributor. But I am also a reasearcher at the University of Virginia in the Psychology Department. If there is scientific evidence that Juice Plus does not do what it claims to do, then I want to know about it. This article, though, has not been entirely helpful on this point. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 66.207.95.54 (talk) 13:29, 10 January 2007 (UTC).

It is unclear as to which specific "passage" 66.207.95.54 is referring. Regardless, one should, in all fairness, peruse the complete research papers rather than just the abstract/summaries before disputing the accuracy of citations or raising concerns about misrepresentation. Furthermore, most of the studies were company-sponsored, and the abstracts in many cases skewed key findings with marketing-friendly statements while negative or confliciting findings were not addressed. This is evident from the full-text versions of the research articles and has been pointed out in several of the cited commentaries.

It is important to identify specific content when claims are made regarding innacuracies or misrepresentation; however, the comments above were vague and therefore difficult to address. I see no evidence of misrepresentation or innacuracies. The only specific comment by 66.207.95.54 referred to misrepresentation of an article by “Memorial Sloan Kettering Cancer Foundation”:

"Their website indicated a neutral stance on Juice Plus, but this article reported a negative view for the Foundation"

I assume that the user was referring to reference #24 by Memorial Sloan-Kettering Cancer Center; however, their position was not misrepresented and it was not neutral (nor did it make a single positive or supportive comment about Juice Plus). The statement in the Wiki article that quoted MSKCCs commentary was as follows:

“Serious doubts about the benefits of Juice Plus have been based in part on claims that the product’s marketing is not well supported by the research data, that it contains too little fruit and vegetable powder to offer significant clinical benefits, that its effects can be attributed to the inclusion of added exogenous vitamins and micronutrients, and that it is excessively priced relative to its potential benefits.”

MSKCCs position was consistent with the above and was justifiably cited (as 1 of 6 supporting references), as indicated by the following excerpts from their article:

"Warnings: Juice Plus is distributed through a multi-tiered marketing scheme with exaggerated value and cost."

This clearly backs up the statement “…and that it is excessively priced relative to its potential benefits”, and confirms that MSKCCs article was referenced fairly. MSKCC also said:

"This product may not contain the labeled amount or may be contaminated. In addition, it may not have been tested for safety or effectiveness."

"Do Not Take If: You are undergoing chemotherapy or radiation therapy"

"Bottom Line: Juice Plus does not prevent cancer. There is no evidence to support the idea that the full benefit of fruits and vegetables can be obtained from a pill."

And regarding the NSA-sponsored immune study by Inserra et al., MSKCC had this to say:

"Despite the apparent benefit claimed by the study, the design of this study is inadequate due to the fact that it was not randomized, blinded or placebo controlled."

In Reference to the NSA-sponsored Juice Plus weight loss study by Kaats et al, MSKCC said the following:

…"these particular results are not compelling since no details of randomization (making sure both the Juice Plus and placebo groups contained similar types of patients) or blinding (making sure the researchers do not know who is receiving what therapy, to avoid observer bias) are given. This study was published in a journal that is not often used by physicians."

MSKCC clearly stated that this research was poorly designed and unreliable, and therefore, the citation of MSKCC for the statement in the Wiki article that “the product’s marketing is not well supported by the research data” is also appropriate. Other relevant comments by MSKCC included the following:

"Purported Uses:

• To prevent cancer - No scientific evidence supports this use.

• To prevent and manage heart disease - No scientific evidence supports this use.

• For weight loss - One poorly-designed clinical trial suggests that Juice Plus helps healthy elderly individuals retain lean muscle and lose fat, but no other studies have been performed to support this use or to show that this supplement is any more effective than eating whole, fresh fruits and vegetables."

"Side Effects: Some test subjects developed a hive-like rash during treatment."

"Special Point - While it is true that good nutrition is important in maintaining health, particularly the elderly, none of the scientific studies undertaken have sought to prove that Juice Plus is more effective than other antioxidant supplements. In addition, no studies exist to compare the physiologic effects of supplementation with Juice Plus to the effects of eating whole, fresh fruits and vegetables."

MSKCCs article was clearly not neutral nor was it misrepresented, as 66.207.95.54 claimed. Rhode Island Red 07:15, 11 January 2007 (UTC)

The Next Best Thing

I reverted most of the edits made 15:57, 27 January 2007. The revised statement regarding "the next best thing" was innacurate. The statement on the Juice Plus website is not specifically in reference to Orchard and Garden Blend products as was indicated in the revision.

I also reverted back to "serious doubts". The flaws with the product and its research raised by many experts are serious ones and it seems that it would be misleading to soften the statement. The word "serious" is appropriate and does not compromise objectivity in any way. Collectively, the comments made by the sources cited have been extremely critical. The difference in wording betwen "doubts" and "serious doubts" is an important distinction and is akin to, for example, "minor flaws" vs "critical flaws". —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Rhode Island Red (talk • contribs) 16:50, 27 January 2007 (UTC).

The website is about Juice Plus; at the next level there is a link to "other products" (or words to that effect), where the Gummies product (and others) can be found. IMO it's clear enough: Juice Plus Orchard/Garden Blend is one product; Juice Plus Gummies is a different product. TraceyR 17:17, 27 January 2007 (UTC)

Sorry to disagree but the revised statement -- "although the website makes it clear that this is in reference to the Juice Plus Garden Blend and Orchard Blend capsules, not the Gummies product" -- is inacurate. The website does not make clear as to which product the "next best thing" statement applies. The original statement was accurate: "NSAs website still claims that Juice Plus is “the next best thing to fruits and vegetables,” although not specifically in reference to the Gummies form of the product." Rhode Island Red 18:37, 27 January 2007 (UTC)

The use of "As of January 2007 NSA still" in this paragraph is tendentious, coming as it does after the section where it is claimed that "NSA had promised to modify its ads and stop calling Gummies “the next best thing to fruits and vegetables”". The implication is that "NSA has still not distanced itself from the claim that Gummies is the next best thing" etc., which isn't justified w.r.t. the first page at www.juiceplus.com. The section on Gummies, on the "Other Products" page, states:

"JP+ Gummies® is a healthy alternative to candy and other unhealthy snacks, offering the whole food based nutritional goodness of Juice Plus+® fruit and vegetable juice powders in tasty "gummi" form. JP+ Gummies® tastes great and contains less sugar than regular gummi products. And what sugar there is in JP+ Gummies® comes only from all-natural sources."

For me that says that NSA isn't claiming that Gummies are "the next best thing" etc.TraceyR 19:40, 27 January 2007 (UTC)

The latest revision is fine by me :-) TraceyR 20:10, 27 January 2007 (UTC)

Copyright sign

I removed the copyright sign after the words "Juice Plus" in the first sentence. I had a look at the Wiki pages for other widely known branded products such as Coca Cola, Band-Aid, and Kleenex, and noticed that copyright signs were not used. I am assuming based on these examples, that the Wiki protocol is to not include copyright signs for branded products. This is similar to the style rules of major magazines and newspapers, which also do not include copyright symbols in articles (as per The Chicago Manual of Style). Rhode Island Red 16:58, 27 January 2007 (UTC)

I've just checked the Juice Plus website - it's a (R) sign (Registered), not (C). What is the wiki style wrt that? TraceyR 17:25, 27 January 2007 (UTC)

The Wiki manual of Style, in its section on trademarks, has this to say:

• Do not use the ™ and ® symbols, or similar, unless they are necessary for context (for instance to distinguish between generic and brand names for drugs).

... In the article about a trademark, it is acceptable to use decorative characters the first time the trademark appears, but thereafter, an alternative that follows the standard rules of punctuation should be used

So it would be OK to have the (R) symbol in the header or first line, but after that it should be omitted.TraceyR 17:36, 27 January 2007 (UTC)

The issue of whether to include the (R) symbol on the first line is fairly minor, and it could be reasonably argued both ways, but the Wiki Manual of Style quoted says "*Do not use the ™ and ® symbols, or similar, unless they are necessary for context (for instance to distinguish between generic and brand names for drugs)." In the Juice Plus instance, no distinction is being made about generic vs. brand name forms of Juice Plus (to my knowledge there has never been a generic "Juice Plus" product on the market). Secondly, Juice Plus is not a single product but rather a line of products that fall under the Juice Plus umbrella. Lastly, Juice Plus is not a drug, so the Wiki style example cited would not be applicable. Rather, Juice Plus is akin to Coca Cola, Band-Aid, or Kleenex, and as I pointed out previously, those Wiki pages do not include the (R) symbol at all. That seems to be sufficient justification for deleting it. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Rhode Island Red (talk • contribs) 18:27, 27 January 2007 (UTC).

01/27/07 Edits

A few key points to consider in regard to the last round of edits to the introduction:

(1) The newly added parts (italicized) “through a form of direct or multi-level marketing known as the NSA Personal Franchise” seem to create unnecessary ambiguity. It is clearer and more direct to say that the product IS sold by direct or multilevel marketing, rather than a “form” of direct or multilevel marketing.

I put this in as clarification: if someone asks a representative "Is it MLM?" and he/she gets the answer "It is the NSA Personal Franchise" then the entry would indicate that it is a form of direct selling after all. TraceyR 09:31, 2 February 2007 (UTC)

Neither the Juice Plus website nor the corporate website uses this term. It cannot be accurately said that the method of distribution is “known” by this term. What a distributor might or might not say is irrelevant, particularly when it cannot be verified. Definitions must be based on verifiable facts. Rhode Island Red 16:22, 2 February 2007 (UTC)

(2) Inclusion of the term “NSA Personal Franchise” seems inappropriate. (a) It is not accurate (a Google search turned up nothing under that name), and (b) more importantly, the term is marketing jargon and has no universally recognized meaning; it does not seem to clarify the method of distribution beyond merely stating that it is sold through direct or multilevel marketing. It would be inaccurate to say that it is “known” by this term since the general public does not use such a term; they would know it simply as “multilevel marketing”.

see comment to (1) above. It doesn't matter whether it is a common term if NSA uses it. I did find some Google hits, so perhaps you didn't look hard enough. TraceyR 09:31, 2 February 2007 (UTC)

See comment above. I searched again and found no authoritative sources that use the term "NSA Personal Franchise". A search for that exact phrase yields no hits on Goggle.Rhode Island Red 16:22, 2 February 2007 (UTC)

(3) The newly added section “Several products are marketed, containing different amounts of the juice powders” seems unnecessary in the intro and contentious because we don’t know whether the products do in fact contain different amounts of juice powder, since the manufacturer does not publicly release such information. The only Juice Plus products I am aware of that list amounts of juice powders are the Swiss/UK Orchard Blend and Garden Blend labels, and those indicate that the capsules contain roughly identical amounts of juice powder. The issues about amounts of juice powders seem to belong, and are addressed, in the Product Contents section.

I think the company literature equates 5 or 6 gummies to one capsule, but I couldn't confirm that with a cursory check on the website. But since your average gummy is smaller than a capsule and has to provide more chewable matix than a capsule, it is just common sense that a gummy will have less than a capsule. But common sense isn't so common :-) TraceyR 09:31, 2 February 2007 (UTC)

If this is an assumption rather than a verifiable fact, it does not warrant inclusion, particularly not in the introduction, which should be clear and concise. The issue of whether the different products contain different amounts of powders is not central to the product definition in the introduction, and it is contentious. The amounts of fruit and vegetable powder are appropriately addressed in the product contents section. Rhode Island Red 16:22, 2 February 2007 (UTC)

(4) It’s difficult to justify changing “extracts” to “concentrates”. First, the powders have often been referred to in scientific articles as “extracts”, and this is in fact the term used by the manufacturer (NAI) in the first published study of the product (by John Wise et al., 1996). Second, the term concentrate implies that the chemical contents of the starting material are “concentrated” in the powders, and we have no real evidence that this is in fact the case. Actually, the fact that the manufacturer adds roughly a dozen different fortifiers to Juice Plus OB/GB capsules (and the additives account for all of the known nutritive value), strongly suggests that the chemical essence of the starting material is not concentrated in the powders. However, we do know for certain that the powders are “extracted” from fruit and vegetables. “Concentrates” is a more marketing-friendly term that the manufacturer might prefer but it is less accurate than “extracts”.

It isn't difficult at all, since the two words are not synonymous. There is an extraction process involved (extracting juice from produce) but, as the name Juice Plus implies, the juice is the basis: the proprietary process is described in general term on the UK website as follows (just an 'extract'!): "...The fruits and vegetables are chilled, cleaned and washed, then juiced. The chilled juices are dried using NSA's proprietary drying process which is both low temperature and short duration, to preserve phytonutrients. ..." This means that the powder is not an extract from the juice but a concentrated form (i.e. with the water removed). This tallies with a response to Google "Define:concentrate" - Concentrate: a concentrated form of a foodstuff; the bulk is reduced by removing water". If this is "markering-friendly" so be it; it just happens to be the way it is.

summa summarum: there is no justification for distorting the meaning by using an incorrect term. Whether the term "extract" is used (erroneously) in scientific articles is also irrelevant, for the same reason. Some articles do refer to it as a "Fruit and Vegetable Concentrate", so why insist on using the incorrect, less "marketing-friendly" term. Bias can go both ways. TraceyR 09:31, 2 February 2007 (UTC)

The term used in the previous version was “extract”. The term was not incorrectly used, and it is the term used in the first article on Juice Plus published by the manufacturer, as well as in several other articles. Since “extract” is not incorrect and it is the term used by the manufacturer, I don’t see any compelling reason to change it to “concentrates”. “Concentrates” is certainly not more accurate than “extracts”. We do know for sure that the product is “extracted” from fruits and vegetables but we don’t know for certain that all (or even any) of the chemicals are “concentrated”. Whether the manufacturer suggests that the product contains “concentrated” fruit and vegetables is irrelevant. Our goal should not be to merely regurgitate marketing claims when they are not supported by (or are contradicted) by evidence. “Extracts” is the more appropriate term. The introduction should be clear and concise and as non-contentious as possible. If this is an issue that you think needs to be flushed out perhaps we can add a line in the product contents section that says something to the effect of …”the manufacturer claims that the product contains the concentrated nutritional essence of fruits and vegetables …” and then any evidence that shows those claims to be incorrect can be included as well.

Lastly, the registered trademark symbol does not belong, as was outlined previously. It is not to be included for product names, except when referring to generic vs. brand name drugs, according to Wiki style guidelines. Juice Plus is clearly not a drug.Rhode Island Red 16:22, 2 February 2007 (UTC)

Rhode Island Red 02:03, 2 February 2007 (UTC)

Tracey, it is actually referred to as NSA Virtual Franchise.Julia 21:01, 2 February 2007 (UTC)

Thanks Julia, you beat me to it! The USA/Canadian term is, as you point out "NSA Virtual Franchise"; in Europe it's slightly different, with "NSA Personal Franchise" being used in the German-speaking countries (and possibly others). Sorry for the confusion! TraceyR 23:26, 2 February 2007 (UTC)

Dispute Resolution Request

It has become apparent that despite the fact that Misplaced Pages has a policy against what is called "article ownership", One person, Rhode Island Red is attempting to "own" and control all content placed on this page. <See http://en.wikipedia.org/WP:OWN> One person or organization should not try to control an article and others can and will edit articles.

The edits made recently by Tracey, such as the use of the word "concentrate" vs Red's desired term "extracts", for example and Red continually reverts the page back to his/her/it's desired verbiage, clearly in violation of the Wiki rules against ONE editor attempting "article ownership", one would simply have to look at the history of this site to see that many dozens, if not hundreds of edits have been made by one editor, Rhode Island Red.

I am asking that Rhode Island Red be banned from any further edits to this site based upon his/her/it's attempted ownership tactics that violate the very rules that Misplaced Pages stands for. Julia 20:59, 2 February 2007 (UTC)

View the extensive contributions to the Juice Plus page by this one editor in the attempted "ownership" of the site: http://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Special:Contributions&limit=500&target=Rhode_Island_Red Julia 21:07, 2 February 2007 (UTC)

I agree with Julia, albeit somewhat reluctantly. It is very frustrating to see almost every change reverted by one person; in Rhode Island Red's defence I will point out that he usually gave reasons before reverting to his preferred wording, but in my (recent) experience his editing and reverting is excessive, (even obsessive) and I.M.O. does fit the description of (attempted) article ownership. TraceyR 23:33, 2 February 2007 (UTC)

Tracy, I can understand your frustration and I appreciate your effort to be evenhanded in your criticism. Nonetheless, by your own admission, you had used incorrect terminology (i.e. “NSA Personal Franchise”). I argued against the use of that incorrect term and I was not off base in doing so. Such editing, based on a fairly clear accuracy issue, does not constitute an attempt at ownership, particularly when I had explained the issue on the discussion page, which you kindly acknowledged.

It should also be recognized that much of the editing I have done in the past involved reverting vandalism and preventing the insertion of factually inaccurate material and inappropriate marketing jargon (this has been discussed by several other editors on the Juice Plus talk page). I have not been the only editor contributing to that effort, although I may have been the most active. Most of my other edits involved refining and correcting content that I had previously contributed and which was not under dispute.

Our previous dispute was settled by mutual agreement so I see no reason at this point to abandon the process of discussion to settle any editorial disagreements. With regard to specific content issues, I’ll attempt to recap:

1. Can it be agreed that the trademark sign does not belong because such inclusion is discouraged according to Misplaced Pages style guidelines unless it serves to distinguish between generic and patented drugs? This issue seems pretty straightforward.

Do not use the ™ and ® symbols, or similar, unless they are necessary for context (for instance to distinguish between generic and brand names for drugs).WP:MOSTM

2. It is not worthwhile to speculate in the introductory paragraph as to whether the different Juice Plus products contain different amounts of juice powders, since (a) no such information exists to support such an assertion, and (b) the distinction serves little purpose in the introduction, particularly when the subject is addressed in the Product Contents section, in addition to it being a contentious claim.

3. There is not a strong case for changing “extracts to “concentrates”. “Extracts” was not incorrect and changing it to “concentrates” would not improve clarity, and if anything could detract from it. “Extracts” is arguably a more scientifically-appropriate term and is certainly less ambiguous than "concentrates"; the latter potentially conveying that the chemical constituents of fruits and vegetables are preserved in the product, which does not appear to be the case. "Extracts" was also the term used by the product’s manufacturer in the first article ever published on Juice Plus, as well as in several subsequent articles. “Concentrates” is not a bad term to use and I might not have changed it had that it been used in the original version; however, I see no valid reason to use it in place of “extracts”. It’s no landslide but it is at least about 70/30 in favor of “extracts”.

Since these 3 issues appear to be the only bone of contention I don't see why we can't resolve the matter amicably, and I certainly don't think that these issues are a valid basis for the accusation that I am attempting to own the Juice Plus page.

In closing, I would just like to remind everyone (and Julia in particular) about a few of the points mentioned in the Misplaced Pages page on Ownership WP:OWN:

Although working on an article does not entitle one to "own" the article, it is still important to respect the work of your fellow contributors. When making large scale removals of content, particularly content contributed by one editor, it is important to consider whether a desirable result could be obtained by working with the editor, instead of against him or her - regardless of whether he or she "owns" the article or not.”

Always avoid accusations, attacks, and speculations concerning the motivation of editors.

Stay calm, assume good faith, and remain civil: Accusing other editors of owning the article may appear aggressive, and could be perceived as a personal attack. Address the editor in a civil manner, with the same amount of respect you would expect. Rhode Island Red 03:22, 3 February 2007 (UTC)

As I understand it, these three issues are not what Julia was complaining about; they were just examples and should not be used to distract from the issue. Looking at the list of recent edits she linked to shows clearly that there is more to it than e.g. a minor difference of opinion as the the meaning of the word "extract" (which any dictionary, used in good faith, can resolve). And I think it unfair to imply, by citing the above Wiki guidelines, that Julia was not staying calm, assuming good faith or being civil. This is what annoys me about the editing practice of Rhode Island Red. Misplaced Pages should not be allowed to become the work of those who shout loudest and longest. TraceyR 14:16, 3 February 2007 (UTC)

As I understand, this is not a forum for general complaints; it is about making improvements to the page and to discuss specific content issues. If there are no disagreements with regard to the 3 content issues I outlined above, then I have nothing further to discuss for now. Rhode Island Red 00:21, 4 February 2007 (UTC)

This is not about a general complaint. This is a very specific dispute about the "ownership" tactics of reversals, edits and not allowing others to state their by one editor, one editor doing over 100 edits--one only one page, one subject, one listing--not across the site adding merit and content across Wiki but a single-minded obsession with this page.

Wiki: "Some contributors feel very possessive about material (be it categories, templates, articles, images, essays, or portals) they have donated to this project. Some go so far as to defend them against all intruders. It's one thing to take an interest in an article that you maintain on your watchlist. Maybe you really are an expert or you just care about the topic a lot. But when this watchfulness crosses a certain line, then you're overdoing it. Believing that an article has an owner of this sort is a common mistake people make on Misplaced Pages.

You can't stop everyone in the world from editing "your" stuff, once you've posted it to Misplaced Pages. As each edit page clearly states:

If you don't want your material to be edited mercilessly or redistributed by others, do not submit it. " Julia 04:34, 4 February 2007 (UTC)

Once again, you are reminded to please focus on content issues and not personal attacks. I have tried to be civil and polite and to keep the discussion focused on specific content on the Juice Plus page. It would be nice if you could start doing the same but if you persist in harassing me, I will bring it to the attention of the administrators and request that you be sanctioned. Rhode Island Red 04:55, 4 February 2007 (UTC)

It might be helpful if everyone involved used the discussion page to talk about concerns they have with the article instead of reverting each other - try to reach a consensus on the problems you see with the article. If you cannot talk things out, there are other options, but please read the dispute resolution page for the correct way to handle those problems. Shell 07:19, 4 February 2007 (UTC)

Pointing out fact is not a personal attack. Over 250 edits on Wiki on only one subject, one category one page....it appears to express ownership of the page. For example when Elonka suggested changes in the section below, the same editor with over 250 edits takes ownership of that need for change and says "he will see what he can do" when the problems with the page stem from his previous edits. This may be an ideal time to do as Wiki recommends and sit back, take a chill and let someone else try to make the page more reader friendly? Why is it his article, his determination what stays and what goes. Certainly removing commerical links is appropriate but he is redotting every I and recrossing every T that others add to the site. THAT is not an attack, it is a fact.Julia 14:52, 4 February 2007 (UTC)

( That seems reasonable and I'm inclined to agree. I'll see what I can do to improve the organization and to make it slightly less technical. I was also thinking that a sidebar table/box listing the product contents might help improve the orgnization somewhat. Rhode Island Red 01:37, 3 February 2007 (UTC)---retracted later, but this is the original post by an editor) Julia 19:28, 4 February 2007 (UTC)

Please try to focus on your concerns with the article and not other editors. If Rhode Island Red was unwilling to discuss the changes, things would be different, however, he appears to have opened a dialog and you have a chance to air your concerns and discuss what changes you think need to be made or what changes have been made that you don't agree with. Try that and see where it goes. Railing about another editor isn't going to help anything and this certainly isn't the forum for it. Shell 19:40, 4 February 2007 (UTC)

Shell, the entire point is that whenever anyone adds something that they think is beneficial to the page, it is reverted, and in most incidences by one editor in particular. I am not making this up or causing the problem. The problem revolves around the fact that ownership has been taken of this page and no one is allowed to make any changes that are not agreed to by a particular editor. You yourself did lengthy edits and the site looked totally fine, yet is has been changed over 50 edits since then by this particular editor. Seems obsessive to me. It is not railing to point out the obvious, or at least I didn't think so.Julia 19:48, 4 February 2007 (UTC)

I have spent a few minutes checking the last 100 contributions by Rhode Island Red and have come to the same conclusion as Julia: of these 100 entries all but a two or three (including one minor edit of bird-feeders, one edit of cellulase) are related to the Juice Plus article. That is 97-98%! I haven't checked further back. At least four entries involve soliciting support ("canvassing") from other editors for his views/actions w.r.t. another editor (including the use of disparaging language). By any standards this would indicate "taking ownership" and needs to be investigated. TraceyR 20:46, 6 February 2007 (UTC)

Tracy, this incivility is unacceptable and must stop -- you are way off base in your accusations. I worked with mutual consent and input from an admin (who was called in by Julia to adjudicate a dispute) to do a major rewrite of the Juice Plus page. Perhaps neither of you have done a major rewrite before, but it involves a lot of editing, as it did for the Juice Plus page. The hundred or so edits I did at that time were to fine tune the verbiage I had added, to correct my own mistakes, cite sources, and add links. It is a gross, slanderous misrepresentation to imply that the number of those edits alone somehow demonstrates ownership. There is absolutely nothing amiss with that situation, nor was the editing or content contested by the admin or by Julia. The version that arose from that round of edits stayed intact with virtually no discussion or changes for months. Once again, stop the attacks and incivility and in the future, please keep your discussion focused on the content, not mudslinging. If you wish to teach each other about Wiki policies, please do so on your personal talk pages and not on this page. Rhode Island Red 03:03, 7 February 2007 (UTC)

Cleanup

I can tell that a lot of work has gone into this article, but looking at it with a fresh pair of eyes, I'm sorry to say that it still needs more. Right now, it's a very difficult read, with long lists of ingredients and statistics. I recommend that it be broken up into smaller sections, and rewritten for a more generalist audience. --Elonka 00:05, 3 February 2007 (UTC)

I've added a few subheads in the product contents section to enhance clarity. The cleanup tag is to be used "in articles that need broad cleanup to eliminate confusion and discrepancies." I am going to remove the tag but we can always continue to address new ways to improve the page. Rhode Island Red 06:51, 6 February 2007 (UTC)

In my opinion, this article does need broad cleanup. Though it is extensively referenced, it reads like a promotional piece that is describing a product in excruciating detail. It does not conform with the Misplaced Pages Manual of Style. For example, the first paragraph describes what the product is, but it does not explain why it is notable. Further, the article primarily presents a very limited "technical" view of the product. But, a simple glance at actual third-party sources about JuicePlus tend to show that there is considerable criticism and controversy about the product and NSA and its marketing techniques. However, the Misplaced Pages article barely mentions this. I am also concerned by the fact that many of the article's primary editors seem to be working on little else but this article, with practically no activity in other parts of Misplaced Pages. This kind of editing behavior implies that the editors have a personal vested interest in the subject, and such behavior is strongly discouraged. See WP:COI and WP:AUTO.

For best results, the information in this article needs to focus on what is said about the product in secondary sources, not primary sources. In other words, instead of listing the ingredients that are found on the label, the article should summarize what is said about the product by outside reviewers. --Elonka 08:15, 6 February 2007 (UTC)

Elonka, could you explain why the focus should be on secondary sources? Surely both are equally important, since the primary sources describe the product itself (e.g. encapsulated powders from dried juice from <list of fruit and veg> etc). It is obviously a controversial product, perhaps unique in its field in terms of the volume of primary research on the product itself - most other supplements seem to rely on published research on selected ingredients such as vitamins - so the secondary sources quoted should reflect this. I don't get the impression that it reads like a promotional piece, however. My feeling is almost the opposite, in fact. The descriptive stuff (contents etc) is quite straightforward, as it should be, but the rest seems to have been tweaked in quite a few places to give a negative slant (e.g. quoting from memory "According to label claims ..." (implying doubt?) rather than "The label states ..." (objective); or see the current debate re "extract" v "concentrate". Other examples, which you quote above, are references to the marketing methods, which have nothing to do with the product and IMO have no place in the article. Why not have a separate article about the marketing aspects and have a reference to it from the product page? TraceyR 09:40, 6 February 2007 (UTC)

On another point you raise about editors with "practically no activity in other parts of Misplaced Pages" - where does one find this information? Thanks. TraceyR 09:40, 6 February 2007 (UTC)

Regarding secondary sources, see Misplaced Pages:Verifiability#Sources and Misplaced Pages:Reliable sources#Types of source material.

Regarding contribution history: To see your own, click on "My contributions" at the top of your screen. To see others' history, there are several methods (including just typing a URL directly into your browser), but the easiest way is to click on the "History" tab for any page, and then when you see an editor's name there, click on the "contribs" link next to their name. This allows you to see nearly all actions that any editor has taken during their time on Misplaced Pages (edits on articles which have been deleted, do not show up). In my experience, any time that I see that an editor is spending a major percentage of their "wiki-time" in one single subject area, it's often a warning sign. In other words, Misplaced Pages editors are expected to help with the growth of the encyclopedia as a whole, and not simply to focus on a subject with which they're personally involved. There are of course exceptions, for example if an editor is working hard to get an article to "featured" status, they may be spending more time there than usual, or if they're a member of a WikiProject, they may be focusing on many articles within a fairly narrow subject area. But even in those cases, a skilled review of a user's contrib history can usually tell the difference between good faith editing and that of a user with an agenda. The problem is particularly noticeable in Misplaced Pages articles about fringe religious groups, as members of the group may become very adamant about defending an article and eliminating anything that they feel is negative information, even if it's properly sourced. It can also be obvious in deletion debates, where several editors will suddenly flood in to "keep" an article, but a quick look at their contrib history will show that they don't seem to care about anything but that article. These editors' comments are often flagged as Single Purpose Accounts, which means that anything they say is then ignored (or given very very little weight) when the closing admin makes a final decision on the discussion. --Elonka 10:46, 6 February 2007 (UTC)

Concentrates vs Extracts

It is unclear why the change was made yet again after the points raised regarding this terminology went unanswered. As I pointed out, the term “extracts” was used in the originally published article by the manufacturer (Wise et al 1996). That sets the precedent quite clearly, as I see it. However, I do see a simple compromise that can put an end to this argument:

Instead of: the original “containing powdered fruit or vegetable juice extracts” or the revised “containing powdered fruit or vegetable juice concentrates”

Lets go with: “containing fruit or vegetable juice powders and…”

Rhode Island Red 16:59, 4 February 2007 (UTC)

The points did not go unanswered. Simply stating e.g. that "extract is the more appropriate term" several times and then claiming precedence for "extract" is irrelevant; we are looking for the correct word to describe a product, even if the manufacturer (or its critics) prefer to use a different word.

I'll repeat this paragraph (which quotes an NSA website) to set the context:

"The chilled juices are dried (emphasis added) using NSA's proprietary drying process which is both low temperature and short duration, to preserve phytonutrients. ..." This means that the powder is not an extract from the juice but a concentrated form of the juice(i.e. with the water removed). This tallies with a response to Google "Define:concentrate" - Concentrate: a concentrated form of a foodstuff; the bulk is reduced by removing water".

I'm sorry that the distinction between an "extract" and a "concentrate" is still not clear. Perhaps this example will help: If someone takes a quantity of, say, fruit juice (or vegetable juice) and extracts the water from the juice, a residue remains. Applying the above definition, it is correct to refer to this residue as "a concentrate" (since the water has been removed). In this example, the residue would be a "juice concentrate", i.e. what is left once the water has been extracted is a concentrate. Look at it another way: we take a load of cherries known to contain vitamin C, we remove the stones and squeeze to juice out of the cherries and then, by some chemical process, extract the vitamin C from the juice, what we have is an extract, not a concentrate.

Another quote, this time from the box at the top of this page: "This is the talk page for discussing improvements (emphasis added) to the Juice Plus article." It is my opinion that this article will be improved by the correct use of the word concentrate. I see no reason to use the vague and ill-defined term "fruit and vegetable powders" when there is a word available which accurately describes the object in question. This isn't "Alice in Wikiland"; let's just stick with the correct word for the job.TraceyR 20:31, 4 February 2007 (UTC)

We need to reach some sort of a compromise on this issue. A strong case has been presented as to why the original term “extract”, a standard term used by the manufacturer of the product (Wise et al. 1996) is more appropriate than “concentrates”, and I am yet to see a sufficient justification as to why it should be changed. We obviously both have strong opposing preferences as to which term should be used. Nonetheless, it is counterproductive to argue about this point endlessly and so I proposed not using either “extracts” or “concentrates” and instead going with “…containing fruit or vegetable juice powders”. It is a perfectly reasonable compromise since NSA uses this exact terminology on the bottle label and in promtional materials. It is clear, unambiguous, and non-controversial, and it serves as perfectly acceptable way of defining the product in the introduction. It is neither vague nor ill-defined. We need to avoid a revert war here, so kindly reconsider this compromise as a fair solution. Rhode Island Red 03:31, 6 February 2007 (UTC)

Rhode Island Red: I don't consider saying that something is "a standard term" used by the manufacturer 11 years ago represents a strong case. I have demonstrated that the term "concentrate " precisely, clearly, unambiguously and (in a normal world) uncontroversially describes the product and why "extract" is incorrect. They are not interchangeable. If there is no way for common sense to prevail, I would welcome some form of independent arbitration. Perhaps you can explain why you find the use of "concentrate" unacceptable? The real objection (voiced earlier) seems to be that it is somehow more "marketing-friendly" than the less accurate "extract". Is that a valid reason for insisting on a less accurate description? TraceyR 17:58, 6 February 2007 (UTC)

I recommend reviewing the steps at Misplaced Pages:Dispute resolution. For this particular case, the best way to proceed might be a Request for Comment, which will probably address the matter by bringing in opinions from other editors. If for some reason that doesn't resolve things, then the next step would be Mediation. Please be cautious about using the term "arbitration" though, which on Misplaced Pages generally refers to the Arbitration Committee, sort of the "Supreme Court" of the wiki. However, ArbCom probably wouldn't be appropriate for this kind of issue, as their cases are generally restricted to questions about user conduct, and not article content debates. Plus, they wouldn't even consider the case unless it had been proven that other dispute resolution techniques had been tried first. If you'd like to proceed to RfC (Request for Comment) though, I'm happy to help. What I'd suggest is first working out a simple one-sentence description of what the issue is, and then seeing if other editors who are already watching this page, have an opinion. If not, then we can put out a more general call to the community at large, and get some other eyes on the situation. --Elonka 19:56, 6 February 2007 (UTC)

In response to the following comment by Tracy:

I have demonstrated that the term "concentrate " precisely, clearly, unambiguously and (in a normal world) uncontroversially describes the product and why "extract" is incorrect.

Well no, actually you haven't really at all. You are merely claiming so without providing reasonable justification. The answer to this issue is very clear cut and I will attempt to explain the details one more time. “Extracts” is not an incorrect term as you have stated; quite the contrary in fact. It is a perfectly accurate, standard term that is widely recognized by scientists, chemists, industry and laypersons worldwide, and not only in a general sense but also in specific reference to Juice Plus.

Primary Points

1. Mosby’s Medical Dictionary 4th ed. (a definitive source) define an “extract” as “a substance, usually a biologically active ingredient of a plant or animal tissue, prepared by the use of solvents or evaporation to separate the substance from the original material”. Here are excerpts from Mosby’s two definitions of the noun “concentrate”: “to decrease the bulk of a liquid and increase its strength per unit of volume”; “a substance that has been strengthened”. Note that the definition of “extract” does not imply that the active ingredients are strengthened or more concentrated in the final product. Based on these definitions, it is inarguable that the powders in Juice Plus are extracts of fruit and vegetable juices, but it is extremely contentious as to whether the concentration of any fruit and vegetable constituents are strengthened in Juice Plus powders. This dictionary distinction alone serves as sufficient justification for not substituting “concentrates” for “extracts”. But since this point is being belabored, I will reiterate and add a few more relevant details.
2. While the term “concentrates”, unlike “extracts”, denotes that the chemical constituents of the starting plant material are concentrated in the final product, there is no evidence to show that this is in fact the case with Juice Plus powders, although there is evidence to the contrary (e.g. potassium and other constituents of the source plant material are not preserved in the final product). The use of “concentrates”, which is misleading in this case, cannot be justified when an accurate and widely accepted term with unambiguous meaning (i.e. “extracts”) can be used instead.
3. I also checked the terminology browser of the National Cancer Institute (another definitive source) which specifically refers to Juice Plus as a “fruit and vegetable extract” and lists the “preferred term” as “plant extract”. The definition was created for NCI’s database in conjunction with the approval of a research protocol on Juice Plus. The source (NCI) is unimpeachable and their position on preferred terminology is entirely unambiguous…”extract” is the “preferred term”! http://nciterms.nci.nih.gov/NCIBrowser/ConceptReport.jsp?dictionary=NCI_Thesaurus&code=C38707

Secondary Points

1. “Extracts” is not only the term used directly by NAI, the manufacturer, in the first published article on Juice Plus, but also in the titles of several subsequent articles (e.g. Smith et al and Inserra et al. and in the grant proposal submitted to the US government by Juice Plus researchers at Wake Forest U).
2. Nowhere on the product website’s description is the term “concentrate” used, although the term "extract" is used: “These fruits and vegetables are juiced to extract their nutritional properties” (https://www.juiceplus.nl/fitness_juiceplus.php)
3. The section of the article in question is in the introductory paragraph. There is no need to insist on using a term that would be controversial and potentially misleading when the issue of whether the active ingredients are in fact concentrated can be addressed in the product contents section of the article.

Will the above explanation suffice to put the issue to rest? Rhode Island Red 03:27, 7 February 2007 (UTC)

Vineyard Blend

Could someone add the contents section for the Vineyard Blend product please (perhaps as part of a reorganisation of the contents sections into e.g. infoboxes, as suggested recently)? As I understand it, this product is generally available in the USA after an extended period of market testing but not yet in Europe. No hurry, of course, but it would complete the product picture. Many thanks TraceyR 22:19, 4 February 2007 (UTC)

Tracey, I just did that for you, but I don't know how to hyperlink all the ingredients like was done with the Orchard/Garden.Julia 19:06, 5 February 2007 (UTC)

That was quick! That's just what the doctor ordered. ;-)

Linking: If you put double square brackets around things, e.g. ] it links to the appropriate wiki article (if present) and shows up in blue type, thus: blueberry. If there is no wiki article it will show up in red, so: non-existent. It's as simple as that!

ps: If you're wondering why ] isn't blue, open this section with the edit button and check the source! TraceyR 20:37, 5 February 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for the work, but actually, you don't want to be hyperlinking every single ingredient. That's what some editors refer to as "overlinking."  ;) The general practice is to only hyperlink those terms that are actually important in relation to the context of the article. For more information on the Misplaced Pages Manual of Style in this regard, please see WP:CONTEXT. I also strongly recommend reading the Style guidelines at Misplaced Pages:Embedded list and WP:NOT. --Elonka 22:46, 5 February 2007 (UTC)

A few points regarding the newly added Vineyard Blend information:

1. The latest entry shows vitamin A and iron content as "0%". The missing information needs to be added or those ingredients should be deleted from the list.

2. On the section: “…fruit juice powder & pulp from Concord grape, blueberry, cranberry, blackberry, bilberry, raspberry, red currant, black currant, elderberry, green tea, ginger root, grape seed and artichoke, L-arginine…”, parentheses are needed to indicate which ingredients are among the juice and pulp powders, since obviously they do not use powder and pulp from L-arginine. Look at the examples for Orchard and Garden Blend and you will see what I mean. I am guessing that the parentheses should be inserted before Concorde grape and close either before green tea or before L-arginine.

3. Does the label actually list “vegetable-derived capsule (pullulan)” or just “pullulan” alone as the ingredient?

4. Are the ingredients in the enzyme blend listed on the label?

5. If I am not mistaken, 2 to 4 capsules per day constitute the recommended daily regimen (not to be confused with the suggested serving size listed on the label). Agreed?

Rhode Island Red 06:30, 6 February 2007 (UTC)

GNLD reference (no. 7)

Perhaps someone could throw light on this reference ("Are all antioxidants what they claim to be?" (pdf). GNLD International.). There would appear to be several worrying aspects:

1. It is cited as "news" rather than "web", although it is not news (see next item)
2. It is published by another MLM company on its own website (promoting its own competitive product)
3. The referenced document is not available at the url provided

Perhaps it has sneaked (snuck) in unnoticed but IMO it has no place here. If the source is a peer-reviewed, placebo-controlled, double-blind, third-party study with a large cohort published in a recognised scientific journal then this source should be referenced. Otherwise this reference should be deleted.

Are there any objections? Thanks! TraceyR 10:46, 6 February 2007 (UTC)

No problem changing it from "news" to "website" or some other form of pubication. The link seems to be down at the moment but was active when the citation was first included. I'll see if I can find another link. The fact that it was published by a competitor would not in itself preclude its use. The analysis did include citations for the methodology used in the carotenoid analysis, along with details like the detection sensitivity. FYI, chemical content analyses are not designed the same way as clinical trials (i.e. studies in human subjects) and they do not use large cohorts, blinding, randomization, or placebo controls. Furthermore, if this were a clinical trial, it would not have to be double-blind, placebo-controlled and randomized in order to merit being mentioned, although such design features would have bearing on the reliability and validity of a clinical trial. Rhode Island Red 17:08, 6 February 2007 (UTC)

Dispute resolution request

This new edit by Rhode Island Red, reverting and adding the "controveries and criticism" paragraph was previously deleted by Shell, for reasons well stated months ago. If we need to spell them all out again, so be it. Per Misplaced Pages Foundations policies articles are NOT to show a bias, and to have "controversies" as a category opens up the door to a 'celebrations', 'praise' of, consensous, etc paragraph. I don't think we want every distributor getting on this site and listing every good quality that the product has and has been proven, do we? this is a REVERT of what Shell took out. Why open the can of worms back up other than to be arguementative and try to bias the site. There is NO way in this world that that paragraph should remain. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by JuliaHavey (talk • contribs) 02:47, 7 February 2007 (UTC).````

AND, who removed the NSA link, www.Juiceplus.com from the site? With what reason, what authority? Only so that quack watch remains? BIAS is showing, AGAIN.Julia 02:50, 7 February 2007 (UTC)

Julia, your chronic incivility, personal attacks, harassment, and latest act of vandalism are intolerable and must stop.

The section to which you are referring was not newly added, it has been there for months without any comments whatsoever. The only new addition is the heading title "controveries and criticism", which Elonka added today. You are entirely misrepresenting the situation in your explanation.

Furthermore, it is considered vandalism when you remove entire sections of content from a page as you did today. The warning you received tonight was unfortunately not your first. Please do not vandalize the page again.

Lastly, and most importantly, I strongly recommend that you take the time to review Misplaced Pages’s rules on conflict of interest WP:COI. As a Juice Plus distributor and spokesperson you have crossed far beyond the line in violating this policy. On that basis, I am requesting that you comply with the conflict of interest policy -- make no further edits to the Juice Plus page and stop particpating in future discussions on the topic. The policy states the following:

Conflict of interest often raises questions as to whether material should be included in the encyclopedia or not. It also can be a cause, or contributing factor, in disputes over whether editors have an agenda that undermines the mission of Misplaced Pages.

A Misplaced Pages conflict of interest is an incompatibility between the purpose of Misplaced Pages, to produce a neutral encyclopedia, and the aims of individual editors. These include editing for the sake of promoting oneself, other individuals, causes, organizations, companies, or products, as well as suppressing negative information, and criticizing competitors.

In keeping with Misplaced Pages's neutral point of view policy, edits where there is a clear conflict of interest, or where such a conflict might reasonably be inferred from the tone of the edit and the proximity of the editor to the subject, are strongly discouraged. Of special concern are organizational conflicts of interest. Failure to follow these guidelines may put the editor at serious risk of embarrassing himself or his client.

Misplaced Pages is "the encyclopedia that anyone can edit", but if you have a conflict of interest, you should exercise great caution. In particular, you should:

avoid editing articles related to you, your organization, or its competitors, as well as projects and products they are involved with,

avoid participating in deletion discussions about articles related to your organization or its competitors;'

and must always:

avoid breaching relevant policies on autobiographies and neutrality,

avoid linking to the Misplaced Pages article or website of your organization in other articles (see Misplaced Pages:Spam).

Rhode Island Red 04:32, 7 February 2007 (UTC)