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Bert Church High School

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Bert Church High School (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View log | edits since nomination)

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I am unable to find sourcing required to meet ORG. Articles limited to event listings and mentions of return to live schooling and similar, but no in depth coverage of the school or its theatre. Star Mississippi 23:56, 15 January 2022 (UTC)

• Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Organizations-related deletion discussions. Star Mississippi 23:56, 15 January 2022 (UTC)
• Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Schools-related deletion discussions. Star Mississippi 23:56, 15 January 2022 (UTC)
• Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Canada-related deletion discussions. Star Mississippi 23:56, 15 January 2022 (UTC)
• Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Alberta-related deletion discussions. Star Mississippi 23:56, 15 January 2022 (UTC)
• Delete I had PRODed this in December because I couldn't find anything about it at the time that would be usable for notability. It doesn't look like anything has drastically changed about the lack of notability since then. Like Star Mississippi says there's just some trivial stuff about event listings, COVID related articles, and similar, but nothing in-depth that would make it notable. At least not from what I can tell. --Adamant1 (talk) 00:59, 16 January 2022 (UTC)
• Keep, provisionally. Adamant1 is tangentially referring to my deprod of this article, a discussion of which can be found at . I do not have much personal time to do deep research at the moment, which is why I never got back to finding sources to this article. But I have added one, which I may add, took me about thirty minutes of Google foo to find. There are multiple other leads I found that can be pursued, but it would take more than a cursory look at them to find more information.  DiscantX 09:07, 16 January 2022 (UTC)

  What you found is some of what I was finding, nothing amounting to in depth coverage of the school. The Under Armour award is about the award and the process, but nothing about the school. There could be a viable redirect to Bert Church, should that be created, with the article about his widow, but that's not enough for the school either. It's a local school that gets coverage, but so far unfortunately nothing adds up. Nicely done though on the stubbing. Star Mississippi 15:41, 16 January 2022 (UTC)

Even if the reference was in-depth, which I agree with Star Mississippi that it isn't, there still needs to be an in-depth regional/national reference for something to be notable. The fact that it took you 30 minutes to find a trivial local source is probably a good indicator that one doesn't exist. Maybe if we all spent a couple more hours of digging we could find a few more local, special interest news stories about their annual bake sale, Sadie Hawkins Day dance or similar, but that's not how notability works. One reason is that per WP:REPUTABLE we only use reputable sources and reputable sources are the "analysis, views, and opinions of reliable authors." Special interest local news stories are very rarely, if ever, any of those things. The story you added about them winning the award definitely does not contain the author's analysis, opinions, or views of the topic. Maybe analysis, but if so extremely tangentially and in a very run of the mill way. --Adamant1 (talk) 16:41, 16 January 2022 (UTC)

I feel that some of the special interest stories can have a place as long as they are merely supplementing the larger notability of the story. The source I added is a foot in the door suggesting that there is archival coverage of the history of this school that suggests it had an importance in Alberta history. The Calgary Herald, btw, is certainly reputable: It is one of if not the largest newspapers distributed in Calgary, which is Alberta's largest urban center, and the paper is the 10th largest in Canada according to List of newspapers in Canada by circulation.

The real question is does the school itself have notability, or is it moreso its namesake that does. That's what further digging would have to reveal.  DiscantX 23:03, 16 January 2022 (UTC)

Sorry, I see you were probably referring to the Airdrie Today source. While I agree that sources like that shouldn't be used for things such as bake sales etc, they can be used if the topic itself is notable and if there is no reason to believe that the source is inaccurate or biased. For example, I found an article about a high school play. Not notable. We can all agree on that. An award that received the attention of the Alberta Premier? Notable, but not in and of itself enough to confer notability to the school. I added another article from the same publication discussing some of the history of the school. While yes it is a local paper, there is no reason to believe the source is unreliable in this specific circumstance. Each article needs to be looked at independently.  DiscantX 23:46, 16 January 2022 (UTC)

The paper can generally be reliably, but that doesn't mean everything they print automatically fits with WP:REPUTABLE or counts as a source that works for notability. Like they could print the standings of a local sports league, but we still can't use it for notability per WP:REPUTABLE because sports league standings are not the "analysis, views, and opinions of reliable authors." At least we can agree on the story about the play not showing notability though. --Adamant1 (talk) 23:51, 16 January 2022 (UTC)

• Keep Seems notable enough. Moondragon21 (talk) 20:41, 16 January 2022 (UTC)
• Delete nothing specifc and substantial. I was for many years in favor of keeping all high schools--a very much disputed consensus eventually found otherwise, and I don't want to challenge it again. This is exactly the kind of article the discussion was about, and I think having found a consensus on how to handle them, we should follow it. For something like this, if my view fails to be supported in the general argument, I will accept that, and follow the consensus. DGG ( talk ) 01:59, 17 January 2022 (UTC)

I do realize that the topic area of high schools has been in the past an area of debate on Misplaced Pages. And where the consensus fell. But I would like to put this out there. To what degree can you honestly expect a high school to receive national recognition in order for it to be notable? Or provincial recognition? The truth is most schools are only known locally, but many of them were fundamental parts of the local history. Are we to delete all of these articles because... why, exactly? There are articles that will never be written. The daycare down the road is unlikely to ever have a Misplaced Pages article. But one of the first high schools of a municipality? I think that in of itself is notable.  DiscantX 14:51, 17 January 2022 (UTC)

I think that's the junction we're at. While at one point in time, secondary schools were presumed notable. When notability shifted more to in depth sourcing (true too for orgs that survived AfD a decade ago but are now deleted), school outcomes shifted to be in line with companies. There are probably hundreds of millions schools worldwide. The vast majority are not notable. Community staples sure, and they can be discussed in the town's article (or in this case Bert Church's legacy) but the schools themselves? Not consequential to a worldwide readership. I'd argue most schools aren't even state/provincially notable. Just my.02 Star Mississippi 16:41, 17 January 2022 (UTC)

This runs a serious risk of over emphasis on urban areas that by their nature have more media coverage than rural. There are schools out there that have absolutely no coverage anywhere other than primary sources, for which I would say they are not deserving of an article. But I feel if you can at least find some secondary sources discussing the history of the school then that history is of importance.

A worldwide readership is a readership that comes from many different populations, and just because one article is not of interest to one person doesn't mean it would not be of interest to someone else. For example, I have very little interest in schools in New York. Yet they have articles such as William E. Grady CTE High School, Sheepshead Bay High School, and George W. Wingate High School (semi-randomly selected from List of high schools in New York City) that have no more notability or even less than Bert Church. There are many of these articles out there. Do we mass delete all of them?  DiscantX 20:08, 17 January 2022 (UTC)

I agree that there is an over emphasis in Misplaced Pages on subjects related to urban areas because the nature of them having more media coverage, but it's not our problem. Otherwise what's the alternative? Have some arbitrary standard where any subject having to do with a rural area below a certain population is de-facto notable or something? How would that any better? Like is having to say to someone "The standard of notability is the town having a population of 500 people or less. Whereas, your town's population is 510 people. So your school isn't notable. Sorry, but it's just to urban for our taste." really any better then what we currently have? --Adamant1 (talk) 23:20, 17 January 2022 (UTC)

Not saying this at all to change your mind, we have differing opinions which is fine -- because they're opinions and neither of us is objectively right. No, we definitely don't mass delete any. While @Adamant1 did absolutely nothing wrong in PRODding, nor did you in challenging, I *personally* feel schools aren't suitable for PROD because they almost always require a conversation. In my personal opinion, conversation helps, whether determine it should be deleted, merged or something else. SuggestBot seems to think I want to fix every school in NYC. This conversation will not help in that respect. If the bot gave me your three I'd probably pass on Wingate/Sheepsheard - defunct and not of personal interest, but take a hatchet to Grady if it's not G12 (haven't looked yet, but State-certified three-year sequence including design and installation of sanitary plumbing and heating systems. doesn't read as independent to me. Are there NYC schools more notable than Alberta? Yes. But they're not notable because they're in NYC. Museums is an area of personal interest and we run into a lot if this there as well. Star Mississippi 01:21, 18 January 2022 (UTC)

Part of my point, which I think you understand (though may or may not agree with), is that these school deletions feel arbitrary in that it is real simple to pick and choose many of these high schools that would fail the same smell test that Bert Church may or may not end up failing. I chose those New York articles because it was a large urban area outside of Canada. It did not take me long to find them. I can find some in Category:Schools in Chicago, Category:Schools in Melbourne. or Category:Schools in Berlin. So actually, maybe I will eat my words. It has nothing to do with urban vs. rural. What really is the selection process for deleting these articles then?  DiscantX 08:23, 19 January 2022 (UTC)

There is no selection process. In the main people come across articles that do not meet inclusion criteria and nominate them for deletion. You are free to nominate other articles for deletion that you do not feel meet inclusion criteria. There are huge amounts of them all over the place, so other stuff exists is never a good argument for keep. The history of Misplaced Pages and the poor state of inclusion criteria when it started means that an article existing in no way demonstrates the article meets inclusion criteria.John Pack Lambert (talk) 14:27, 19 January 2022 (UTC)

Just to add to that, I'm much more selective about what I PROD then I use to be. Especially when it comes to schools. Since it seems like the ability to find references or not for them is extremely finicky. I don't think that means they shouldn't be nominated for deletion though, but doing it through AfD instead of PROD does seem to be more effective at making sure there's a fair chance of the article being kept if it should be. On the "selection process" question, like Johnpacklambert says there isn't really one. For me it's mainly related to what I'm reading about, researching, or interested at the time. Which is mostly random. Somedays it's hospitals, somedays schools, somedays just schools in Africa, somedays only Catholic schools in the Congo. Somedays it's none of those and I'll just work on Commons organizing postcards. There isn't really any rhyme or reason to it. Like two years ago I PRODed and AfDed a lot of Seventh Day Adventist hospitals that weren't notable. Hell if I could tell you exactly why it was that subject. --Adamant1 (talk) 01:31, 21 January 2022 (UTC)

• Comment I did a Newspapers.com search, but all I could find was coverage from the late 90's about an epidemic of teen suicides in that city. It seems that Canadian schools lack regional coverage that most large American schools have. Scorpions13256 (talk) 01:40, 18 January 2022 (UTC)
• Delete The sourcing here is not on the level to meet ORG. As scorpions points out there is not substantial sourcing covering this institution, but just incidental mentions in articles about other things.John Pack Lambert (talk) 15:32, 18 January 2022 (UTC)
• Keep. Easily enough sourcing available to meet WP:GNG as with any other secondary school in the western world. -- Necrothesp (talk) 14:59, 19 January 2022 (UTC)
• Delete, lacks sources to meet WP:GNG. Claiming that such sourcing is available without presenting any is useless, and a bad habit. Fram (talk) 16:30, 19 January 2022 (UTC)
  • That editor seems to like to mass state that in secondary school related discussions without showing it is so. Also, the requirements of organizational notability are slightly more stringent than GNG. We do not keep all organizational articles that meet GNG. Although we have never decided which one we apply to secondary educational institutions, in part because there are some editors that assert things like the comment just above.John Pack Lambert (talk) 14:28, 20 January 2022 (UTC)
• Comment I have let my opinion on the subject be known. I think it is a broader issue than Bert Church, and I don't think that the issue can be solved here. There is a problem, in my opinion, with the deletion process of Misplaced Pages that chooses a very broad definition of notability, and then selectively chooses which criteria to apply it.  DiscantX 10:22, 21 January 2022 (UTC)
• Keep: Interesting debate but I support keeping this article. — Ret.Prof (talk) 01:25, 22 January 2022 (UTC)

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, – AssumeGoodWraith (talk | contribs) 12:45, 23 January 2022 (UTC)

• Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Education-related deletion discussions. CAPTAIN RAJU 16:46, 23 January 2022 (UTC)

• Keep per the significant coverage in multiple independent reliable sources.
  1. Articles about Bert Church High School that are not about theatre and sports games:
     1. Chorney, Allison (2013-05-02). "Bert Church students experience once-in-a-lifetime trip: Just over two years ago, staff at Bert Church High School were trying to rethink how music trips could encourage interest in the music program at the school. The solution? A nine-day trip to China". Airdrie Today. Great West Newspapers. Archived from the original on 2022-01-29. Retrieved 2022-01-29.
     2. Chorney, Allison (2013-09-13). "Bert Church follows remarkable year with student legacy: Last year was an amazing one for Bert Church High School. The school won $100,000 for its athletic teams in a national Under Armour contest and the Passion for Excellence Program, which resulted in a visit from Olympian Melissa Hollingsworth". Airdrie Today. Great West Newspapers. Archived from the original on 2022-01-29. Retrieved 2022-01-29.
     3. "Bert Church receives Special Olympics Alberta award: Bert Church High School (BCHS) was honoured at the Special Olympics Alberta 37th Annual Awards event and Annual General Meeting Oct. 14 when it was named the 2017 recipient of the Unified School award". Airdrie Today. Great West Newspapers. 2017-10-19. Archived from the original on 2022-01-29. Retrieved 2022-01-29.
     4. "Bert Church students stay awake for sick kids: It took them awhile to get caught up on their Zs, but for the Bert Church students who organized a Wake-a-thon at their school, April 27, going sleepless for one night really paid off". Airdrie Today. Great West Newspapers. 2012-05-09. Archived from the original on 2022-01-29. Retrieved 2022-01-29.
     5. "Local high school wins $100,000 in national contest: Bert Church High School is undeniable. The Airdrie high school celebrated with a holler, hugs and handshakes Jan. 25 when the news came in that it had won $100,000 in a nationwide contest sponsored by Under Armour". Airdrie Today. Great West Newspapers. 2013-01-31. Archived from the original on 2022-01-29. Retrieved 2022-01-29.
     6. Simnett, Chris (2013-03-27). "Undeniably Bert Church". Airdrie Echo. Postmedia Network. Archived from the original on 2022-01-29. Retrieved 2022-01-29.
     7. Yates, Kelsey (2018-06-08). "Bert Church successfully hosts student leadership conference". Airdrie Echo. Postmedia Network. Archived from the original on 2022-01-29. Retrieved 2022-01-29.
     8. Yates, Kelsey (2019-06-17). "Bert Church students represent at Ontario Special Olympics Youth Games". Airdrie Echo. Postmedia Network. Archived from the original on 2022-01-29. Retrieved 2022-01-29.
  2. Articles about Bert Church High School and theatre:
     1. Cundy, Carmen (2021-11-18). "Bert Church High School to ring in return to live performances with Christmas play: Bert Church High School's advanced acting class anticipates a return to live theatre next month with four performances of A Winter's Gift, a Christmas play featuring medieval minstrels, mishaps, and more on Dec. 2 to 4". Airdrie Today. Great West Newspapers. Archived from the original on 2022-01-29. Retrieved 2022-01-29.
     2. "Bert Church High School tackles iconic play". Airdrie Today. Great West Newspapers. 2018-04-26. Archived from the original on 2022-01-29. Retrieved 2022-01-29.
     3. "Bert Church performing musical of Anne of Green Gables: Bert Church High School is taking on its biggest theatrical endeavour to date, a musical of Anne of Green Gables from Dec. 9-11". Airdrie Today. Great West Newspapers. 2010-12-03. Archived from the original on 2022-01-29. Retrieved 2022-01-29.
     4. Strasser, Scott (2019-12-13). "School spirit on full display in high-school basketball". Airdrie Today. Great West Newspapers. Archived from the original on 2022-01-29. Retrieved 2022-01-29.
     5. "Bert Church High School going back to the ' 80s: The 1980s becomes fashionable once again in Bert Church High School's production of Back to the '80s: The Totally Awesome Musical running from Dec. 3 to 5". Airdrie Today. Great West Newspapers. 2015-12-03. Archived from the original on 2022-01-29. Retrieved 2022-01-29.
     6. Cassidy, Riley (2021-11-24). "Bert Church students to perform live Christmas play". Airdrie Echo. Postmedia Network. Archived from the original on 2022-01-29. Retrieved 2022-01-29.
     7. Yates, Kelsey (2019-11-20). "Bert Church students present Disney favourite The Little Mermaid". Airdrie Echo. Postmedia Network. Archived from the original on 2022-01-29. Retrieved 2022-01-29.
     8. Yates, Kelsey (2018-11-15). "Bert Church gives the Addams Family a new twist". Airdrie Echo. Postmedia Network. Archived from the original on 2022-01-29. Retrieved 2022-01-29.
     9. Yates, Kelsey (2018-04-26). "And Then There Were None coming to Bert Church". Airdrie Echo. Postmedia Network. Archived from the original on 2022-01-29. Retrieved 2022-01-29.
  3. Articles about Bert Church High School and sports games:
     1. Strasser, Scott (2022-01-19). "Bert Church overcomes W.H. Croxford in return to regular-season basketball action: Airdrie's public school sports teams will be limited to playing against their divisional opponents until further notice. According to Rocky View Schools' (RVS) Return to School Operational Plan, updated on Jan". Airdrie Today. Great West Newspapers. Archived from the original on 2022-01-29. Retrieved 2022-01-29.
     2. Strasser, Scott (2019-11-21). "Bert Church loses southern final to HTA". Airdrie Today. Great West Newspapers. Archived from the original on 2022-01-29. Retrieved 2022-01-29.
     3. Strasser, Scott (2022-01-13). "Bert Church football players contribute to Alberta victory over B.C. U16s". Airdrie Today. Great West Newspapers. Archived from the original on 2022-01-29. Retrieved 2022-01-29.
     4. Strasser, Scott (2020-07-08). "Bert Church grads prepare for post-secondary competition". Airdrie Today. Great West Newspapers. Archived from the original on 2022-01-29. Retrieved 2022-01-29.
     5. Strasser, Scott (2018-09-27). "Bert Church shut out by Springbank for second loss of 2018: The Bert Church Chargers football team was kept off the scoreboard for a second consecutive game Sept. 21, as the team fell 17-0 to the visiting Springbank Phoenix". Airdrie Today. Great West Newspapers. Archived from the original on 2022-01-29. Retrieved 2022-01-29.
     6. Strasser, Scott (2019-10-23). "Bert Church soccer team wins zones tourney". Airdrie Today. Great West Newspapers. Archived from the original on 2022-01-29. Retrieved 2022-01-29.
     7. Strasser, Scott (2019-11-14). "Bert Church football qualifies for southern final". Airdrie Today. Great West Newspapers. Archived from the original on 2022-01-29. Retrieved 2022-01-29.
     8. Strasser, Scott (2019-12-22). "Bert Church hosts invitational basketball tournament". Airdrie Today. Great West Newspapers. Archived from the original on 2022-01-29. Retrieved 2022-01-29.
     9. Strasser, Scott (2019-06-13). "Bert Church concedes RVSA soccer title to Springbank". Airdrie Today. Great West Newspapers. Archived from the original on 2022-01-29. Retrieved 2022-01-29.
     10. Strasser, Scott (2019-11-06). "Bert Church earns bronze in RVSA soccer". Airdrie Today. Great West Newspapers. Archived from the original on 2022-01-29. Retrieved 2022-01-29.
     11. Strasser, Scott (2019-05-17). "Bert Church looks to defend soccer title". Airdrie Today. Great West Newspapers. Archived from the original on 2022-01-29. Retrieved 2022-01-29.
     12. Strasser, Scott (2019-02-21). "Bert Church overcomes Croxford in overtime thriller: In a high-tempo game in front of a packed and rowdy crowd Feb. 12, the Bert Church Chargers senior boys' basketball team overcame the visiting W.H. Croxford Cavaliers 75-66". Airdrie Today. Great West Newspapers. Archived from the original on 2022-01-29. Retrieved 2022-01-29.
     13. Strasser, Scott (2019-09-26). "Bert Church maintains perfect record, Croxford earns first win". Airdrie Today. Great West Newspapers. Archived from the original on 2022-01-29. Retrieved 2022-01-29.
     14. Strasser, Scott (2018-10-11). "Bert Church tames George McDougall for first win: It took three weeks, but an Airdrie team finally put one in the win column of the Rocky View Sports Association's senior girls' volleyball division. The Bert Church Chargers picked up its first victory of the season Oct". Airdrie Today. Great West Newspapers. Archived from the original on 2022-01-29. Retrieved 2022-01-29.
     15. Strasser, Scott (2018-12-13). "Bert Church falls narrowly in season opener: It went down to the wire, but the Bert Church Chargers senior girls' basketball team ultimately fell just short in its season opener Dec. 5 against the Springbank Phoenix". Airdrie Today. Great West Newspapers. Archived from the original on 2022-01-29. Retrieved 2022-01-29.
     16. Strasser, Scott (2018-10-25). "Bert Church earns first regular season win of 2018". Airdrie Today. Great West Newspapers. Archived from the original on 2022-01-29. Retrieved 2022-01-29.
     17. Yates, Kelsey (2019-11-20). "Bert Church Chargers face defeat in provincials". Airdrie Echo. Postmedia Network. Archived from the original on 2022-01-29. Retrieved 2022-01-29.
     18. McCartney, Peter (2013-05-07). "Bert Church has great start to soccer season". Airdrie Echo. Postmedia Network. Archived from the original on 2022-01-29. Retrieved 2022-01-29.
  There is sufficient coverage in reliable sources to allow Bert Church High School to pass Misplaced Pages:Notability#General notability guideline, which requires "significant coverage in reliable sources that are independent of the subject".

  Cunard (talk) 11:56, 29 January 2022 (UTC)

• The lead of Misplaced Pages:Notability (organizations and companies) says:

  The scope of this guideline covers all groups of people organized together for a purpose with the exception of non-profit educational institutions, religions or sects, and sports teams.

  Misplaced Pages:Notability (organizations and companies)#Schools says:

  All universities, colleges and schools, including high schools, middle schools, primary (elementary) schools, and schools that only provide a support to mainstream education must either satisfy the notability guidelines for organizations, the general notability guideline, or both. For-profit educational organizations and institutions are considered commercial organizations and must satisfy those criteria. (See also WP:SCHOOLOUTCOMES)

  As a non-profit educational institution, Bert Church High School passes Misplaced Pages:Notability#General notability guideline and Misplaced Pages:Notability (organizations and companies)#Schools. Bert Church High School has received substantial sustained coverage in Postmedia Network's Airdrie Echo and Great West Newspapers's Airdrie Today.

  Cunard (talk) 11:56, 29 January 2022 (UTC)

As I'm sure your aware WP:AUD says "attention solely from local media, or media of limited interest and circulation, is not an indication of notability; at least one regional, statewide, provincial, national, or international source is necessary." How exactly do references only from news outlets that are in Airdrie satisfy that? --Adamant1 (talk) 14:11, 29 January 2022 (UTC)

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