Misplaced Pages

Talk:Russian invasion of Ukraine: Difference between revisions

Article snapshot taken from Wikipedia with creative commons attribution-sharealike license. Give it a read and then ask your questions in the chat. We can research this topic together.
Browse history interactively← Previous editNext edit →Content deleted Content addedVisualWikitext
Revision as of 01:29, 25 April 2022 editLightandDark2000 (talk | contribs)Autopatrolled, Extended confirmed users, Pending changes reviewers, Rollbackers62,349 edits →Changing the main map to the colourblind-friendly version: As the second discussion has closed, I think we should defer to the results of that one. Also, it is highly improper to request people to forcibly implement a proposal in the middle of an active discussion, especially when opinion is clearly divided.← Previous edit Revision as of 01:50, 25 April 2022 edit undoMusikBot II (talk | contribs)Bots, Interface administrators, Administrators102,898 editsm removing {{pp-protected}} as page is not edit-protected (more info)Next edit →
Line 1: Line 1:
{{pp-protected}}
{{Talk header|archive_age=120<!--Discussion regarding archive period at ].-->|archive_units=hours|archive_bot=lowercase sigmabot III}} {{Talk header|archive_age=120<!--Discussion regarding archive period at ].-->|archive_units=hours|archive_bot=lowercase sigmabot III}}
{{FAQ|page=Talk:2022 Russian invasion of Ukraine/FAQ|collapsed=no}} {{FAQ|page=Talk:2022 Russian invasion of Ukraine/FAQ|collapsed=no}}

Revision as of 01:50, 25 April 2022

This is the talk page for discussing improvements to the Russian invasion of Ukraine article.
This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject.
Article policies
Find sources: Google (books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL
Archives: 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20Auto-archiving period: 5 days 
? view · edit Frequently asked questions Q1: Questions about article title issues and changes? A1: There have been many requests to change the title of this article. The last successful one resulted in a consensus to change the title to "Russian invasion of Ukraine": this link. Q2: Why is Ukraine not a part of the NATO military alliance? A2: In 2008 Ukraine applied for membership to the NATO military alliance and was rejected from the alliance, at the same time as Georgia was rejected from the NATO military alliance. As of 2023 with Finland being added to the NATO military alliance, Ukraine is still not a member of the NATO military alliance. Q3: Why does the article show explicit images? A3: Misplaced Pages is not censored, and articles may include content that some readers may find objectionable if it is relevant and adds value to the article. See the Content Disclaimer for further information. Q4: Can you add X country to the infobox because it is sending weapons to Ukraine? Why isn't NATO in the infobox? A4: A discussion took place to decide whether countries supplying arms should be listed in the infobox, and the outcome was 'No Consensus'.
Please do not add individual countries without discussing here first. While consensus can change, please review the closed discussion, and try to bring forward novel arguments. Q5: Can you update the losses claimed by Russia/Ukraine? A5: This generally happens quickly after they are published. Please don't make an edit request. Q6: Why is the map in the infobox outdated/wrong? A6: The map is only as accurate as publicly available reliable sources. Please remember that due to the operational secrecy and the disinformation efforts by all sides, as well as the fog of war, the map may not be able to meet any particular standard for completeness or accuracy until well after the conflict is over.
If you believe you can offer constructive feedback which would improve the map, supported by reliable sources, please leave a comment at File talk:2022 Russian invasion of Ukraine.svg. There is no use in leaving it here.
This page is not a forum for general discussion about Russian invasion of Ukraine. Any such comments may be removed or refactored. Please limit discussion to improvement of this article. You may wish to ask factual questions about Russian invasion of Ukraine at the Reference desk.
The contentious topics procedure applies to this page. This page is related to the Balkans or Eastern Europe, which is a contentious topic. Please consult the procedures and edit carefully.
          Other talk page banners
Censorship warningMisplaced Pages is not censored.
Images or details contained within this article may be graphic or otherwise objectionable to some readers, to ensure a quality article and complete coverage of its subject matter. For more information, please refer to Misplaced Pages's content disclaimer regarding potentially objectionable content and options for not seeing an image.

Template:Vital article

In the newsA news item involving Russian invasion of Ukraine was featured on Misplaced Pages's Main Page in the In the news section on 24 February 2022.
Misplaced Pages
Misplaced Pages
Text has been copied to or from this article; see the list below. The source pages now serve to provide attribution for the content in the destination pages and must not be deleted as long as the copies exist. For attribution and to access older versions of the copied text, please see the history links below.
This article has previously been nominated to be moved. Please review the prior discussions if you are considering re-nomination.

Discussions:

This article is written in British English, which has its own spelling conventions (colour, travelled, centre, defence, artefact, analyse) and some terms that are used in it may be different or absent from other varieties of English. According to the relevant style guide, this should not be changed without broad consensus.
Media mentionThis article has been mentioned by multiple media organizations:
This article has been viewed enough times in a single week to appear in the Top 25 Report 8 times. The weeks in which this happened:
Section sizes in 2022 Russian invasion of Ukraine

error: 2022 Russian invasion of Ukraine is a redirect (help)

This article has not yet been rated on Misplaced Pages's content assessment scale.
It is of interest to multiple WikiProjects.
Please add the quality rating to the {{WikiProject banner shell}} template instead of this project banner. See WP:PIQA for details.
WikiProject iconInternational relations High‑importance
WikiProject iconThis article is within the scope of WikiProject International relations, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of International relations on Misplaced Pages. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.International relationsWikipedia:WikiProject International relationsTemplate:WikiProject International relationsInternational relations
HighThis article has been rated as High-importance on the project's importance scale.
WikiProject iconMilitary history: European / Russian & Soviet / Post-Cold War
WikiProject iconThis article is within the scope of the Military history WikiProject. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the project and see a list of open tasks. To use this banner, please see the full instructions.Military historyWikipedia:WikiProject Military historyTemplate:WikiProject Military historymilitary history
B checklist
This article has been checked against the following criteria for B-class status:
  1. Referencing and citation: criterion met
  2. Coverage and accuracy: criterion met
  3. Structure: criterion met
  4. Grammar and style: criterion met
  5. Supporting materials: criterion met
Associated task forces:
/ 
Taskforce icon
European military history task force
Taskforce icon
Russian, Soviet and CIS military history task force
Taskforce icon
Post-Cold War task force
Please add the quality rating to the {{WikiProject banner shell}} template instead of this project banner. See WP:PIQA for details.
WikiProject iconRussia: History / Politics and law High‑importance
WikiProject iconThis article is within the scope of WikiProject Russia, a WikiProject dedicated to coverage of Russia on Misplaced Pages.
To participate: Feel free to edit the article attached to this page, join up at the project page, or contribute to the project discussion.RussiaWikipedia:WikiProject RussiaTemplate:WikiProject RussiaRussia
HighThis article has been rated as High-importance on the project's importance scale.
Taskforce icon
This article is supported by the history of Russia task force.
Taskforce icon
This article is supported by the politics and law of Russia task force.
Please add the quality rating to the {{WikiProject banner shell}} template instead of this project banner. See WP:PIQA for details.
WikiProject iconUkraine Top‑importance
WikiProject iconThis article is within the scope of WikiProject Ukraine, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Ukraine on Misplaced Pages. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.UkraineWikipedia:WikiProject UkraineTemplate:WikiProject UkraineUkraine
TopThis article has been rated as Top-importance on the project's importance scale.
WikiProject iconNATO (inactive)
WikiProject iconThis article is within the scope of WikiProject NATO, a project which is currently considered to be inactive.NATOWikipedia:WikiProject NATOTemplate:WikiProject NATONATO
The following references may be useful when improving this article in the future:

Link to closed and archived RfC: Should the individual arms supplying countries be added to the infobox?

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.


(The heading above is a link to the archived RFC as it is significant and I'm assuming this will be discussed more while not cluttering the talk page with a 29 page discussion Phiarc (talk) 08:07, 7 March 2022 (UTC))

Same link: Should the individual arms supplying countries be added to the infobox? --N8wilson 12:19, 20 March 2022 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Changing the main map to the colourblind-friendly version

I would like to propose that the main map shown in the infobox be changed to the colourblind-friendly version.

  • Current map Current map
  • Proposed replacement Proposed replacement

The current map (on the left above) does not offer sufficient contrast for individuals diagnosed with tritanopia.
Although tritanopia incidence rate is about 1%, this highly visible article has been viewed 5,445,185 times at the time this was written, which means that we have likely served this map to individuals diagnosed with tritanopia more than 54 000 times. Of course, this number will only go up.
Per MOS:ACCESS, accessibility is a core WMF policy, and it "may not be circumvented, eroded, or ignored by Wikimedia Foundation officers or staff nor local policies of any Wikimedia project". Based on this, I think we have a clear case for action to switch to the colourblind-friendly map.

Simulations of tritanopia:
Current whole page Just the image
Proposed replacement image

Please be patient as the tool loads, it may take a few seconds to be ready. Melmann 11:52, 15 April 2022 (UTC)

Strong support - No love lost for a map with new colour schemes. The proposal works perfectly for everyone, a genuinely good change. PenangLion (talk) 12:32, 15 April 2022 (UTC)
Support with suggestion. This replacement looks a lot better. My suggestion is that there needs to be better contrast between "troop movement arrows" and the background colors, otherwise it is hard to see. If troop movements were, for example, black that would make them a lot easier to see. Another alternative might be to "outline" (any colored troop movement arrows) in clear black lines so you can really see these movement arrows. Or alternately still, just experiment with other "arrow colors", but always strive for strong contrast. Chesapeake77 (talk) 12:32, 15 April 2022 (UTC)
Support IMO the new one looks a lot better, since there's a larger contrast between the occupied/non-occupied territories. >>> Ingenuity.talk(); 12:59, 15 April 2022 (UTC)
Support Looks a lot clearer to me (average sighted?) 51.6.155.34 (talk) 14:07, 15 April 2022 (UTC)
Support I hate the yellow on yellow. Hard to see, if not impossible, on mobile devices.--JOJ 16:29, 15 April 2022 (UTC)
Comment, yes but I would also mention that the "grey" troop movement arrows are also hard to see. Better contrast there is still needed. Chesapeake77 (talk) 18:26, 15 April 2022 (UTC)
IIRC this was discussed on Commons after the first overwrite (c:File_talk:2022_Russian_invasion_of_Ukraine.svg#Voting_on_two_color_schemes), and editors decided to keep copy A. Some colourblind people commented there saying the one on the right wasn't actually easier to see. ProcrastinatingReader (talk) 21:13, 15 April 2022 (UTC)
Comment, I do think its a good idea to have the advances/movements of forces in different colours, so readers can tell the forces apart, maybe not have red arrows on orange for the Russians and maybe blue instead of unclear Grey for the Ukrainians. ~ BOD ~ 23:04, 15 April 2022 (UTC)
Support per MOS:ACCESS though contrast in the movement arrows should be increased. Cinderella157 (talk) 23:38, 15 April 2022 (UTC)
There appears to be a better option (option 1) per discussion below - #Discussing colour changes for c:File:2022 Russian invasion of Ukraine.svg. Cinderella157 (talk) 09:27, 19 April 2022 (UTC)
Weak support The gray arrows on cream background for Ukraine are much clearer than the current version, but are hard to tell apart from the borders on the map for people with normal color vision, as is the new icon assigned to the older bombardments. The new contrast choice for the Russian troops and Russian-controlled territory is also somewhat worse than the original for viewers with protanopia or deuteranopia. –LaundryPizza03 (dc̄) 00:37, 16 April 2022 (UTC)
Strong Support for WP:ACCESSIBILITY, plus as someone with a type of colourblindness that doesn't affect the colours on the current map, I find the new clearer to read. --Inops (talk) 12:25, 16 April 2022 (UTC)
Object One can discern the differences in gradient in the simulation of tritanopia version. It does not affect the viewing of the image. The orange subtlely resembles the color of the ribbon of Saint George, a Russian military symbol thus it would bring to the map a layer of unwanted meaning. Sgnpkd (talk) 18:34, 16 April 2022 (UTC)
Oppose I've seen better suggestions, such as a light blue and red one or a white(ish) and black one. This suggestion sure is better than the green and orange one but I am not convinced that this is the best possible version we can come out with and approving this version already could make people stop proposing alternatives. Super Ψ Dro 09:44, 17 April 2022 (UTC)
Strong Oppose It gives passive colors to Ukraine while making Russian gains seem overwhelmingly dominant. The current file is accessible to 99 % of the readers and the color blind accessible version already in the file page. Viewsridge (talk) 13:11, 18 April 2022 (UTC)
  • Very Strongly Oppose – The proposed colorblind map colors aren't intuitive, and for normal color vision people, the contrasting is just terrible in some areas (such as grey arrows on a light background). The colors are jarring and even a little confusing, as some of the colors are too close to others, while the proposed colors make it appear as if Ukraine doesn't even hold any territory. The grey colors for cities is also terrible and difficult to distinguish against the background. Not only that, but the colors don't mesh well together and don't look nice. If we implement a colorblind-friendly version, I prefer a version that is close to the current version of the map. As a matter of fact, I would strongly oppose any proposed color scheme that bears little to no resemblance to the current colors. LightandDark2000 🌀 (talk) 17:22, 18 April 2022 (UTC)
Also Very Strongly Oppose, LightandDark2000 has described the situation well. --Čeha (razgovor) 18:50, 19 April 2022 (UTC)
@LightandDark2000: My proposal is to improve the MOS:ACCESS now with what we currently have ready, not to select 'one final map to rule them all that nobody will ever be able to change'. If this proposal was to be implemented, it would be a step towards a better accessibility, and we can take that step now. Let's not let perfect be the enemy of better.
The community has been struggling to agree on a proper colour scheme that works for everyone, and in the meanwhile colourblind users suffer. Per MOS:ACCESS, accessibility is not optional, and since there is WP:NODEADLINE our colourblind users may be left in Misplaced Pages census process purgatory for weeks or months. I would see no reason why we can't implement this now, and then when the discussion yields the final set of colours, implement those.
Could you attempt to justify a 'very strong oppose' in the context of our MOS:ACCESS obligations and the reality that your discussion may not yield result anytime soon? Melmann 17:57, 19 April 2022 (UTC)
I know that this is irrelevant now, given that the second, later discussion has clearly concluded in favor of one of the proposals there over this particular proposal...But...Let me ask this: Why should we do this? Why should we rush a discussion, when the policy you yourself cited, WP:NODEADLINE, states that there is no deadline for Misplaced Pages editors to complete an article or implement a change? Why should we prejudge the results of an open discussion when there is no way of knowing for certain exactly how it will end? And most importantly, why should we rush ahead with a controversial change that has divided the participants and attracted significant opposition, especially while the said discussion is still ongoing? If this doesn't breach WP:CONSENSUS, or at least the soul of the policy, I don't know what does. I will say that rushing ahead with a proposal with this much opposition would generate significant backlash, both on Misplaced Pages and on other sites that view our maps (such as Twitter and Facebook). I've seen color changes hastily implemented before on other, unrelated projects on Misplaced Pages in the past, in the name of MOS:ACCESS. While I will not explicitly say which projects are involved for those, let me just say that those attempts did not end well. They attracted significant backlash and opposition, both on Misplaced Pages and on social media. And there were even attempts to revert those changes outright on Misplaced Pages. If we move forward in such a hasty, ill-thought manner, as you are suggesting here, you will provoke widespread backlash over a map that's literally viewed by hundreds of thousands, if not millions of people each day. The fact that there is already significant opposition here to the proposal here means that it should not be implemented immediately, especially not with the discussion still in progress. I think that as Wikipedians, we have a responsibility to see a discussion through to the end before implementing a controversial or disputed change, based on the results of that discussion. We also have a responsibility, as editors of these articles, to ensure that while our articles are accessible, that the graphics and charts we use are also acceptable to most of our readers. WP:ACCESS is important, but equally important are the views of our readers with normal vision. You cannot stomp over the opinions of normal vision readers here in the name of WP:ACCESS, especially when there are better alternatives available. Both discrimination and reverse discrimination are equivalent evils that should not be entertained. Lastly, I will note that the proposals discussed in the second option below are significantly more popular than the proposal being discussed here, as the latter discussion ended in a snow closure. I think that the best course of action is to defer to the results of that discussion, rather than trying to overturn consensus or start more pointless color drama. LightandDark2000 🌀 (talk) 01:29, 25 April 2022 (UTC)
Oppose, as there's already a more or less uniform design for conflict maps on Misplaced Pages which people recognize, at it's viewed by literally Millions. However, I agree that a change to a more colorblind-friendly version should be made, as has been suggested in another discussion below.--Ermanarich (talk) 21:34, 19 April 2022 (UTC)
weak support. I see merits for accommodation, though I think the replacement proposed is not the best. Though it would be helpful if the color scheme matches with other wikipedia war maps, for almost all other war maps, government forces are actually red, and rebel forces green. One can argue how applicable this is here, as Russian invading forces are in fact not rebels, and red is almost universally denoted across as representing Russian occupation (Liveuamap, military.net, etc.). Hence we might actually we might need other arrangements for this, one that may very well be used for precedence in mapping interstate wars (which in terms of wikipedia live mapping we don't have much historic precedence), which of course means that when we are literally establishing precedence, one that would be great to be accommodating. However, many above have pointed out the problem with the proposed alternative. Perhaps when a better alternative is proposed we should support it. WeifengYang (talk) 04:22, 20 April 2022 (UTC)
Oppose As a color-blind person I concur with @LightandDark2000:. EkoGraf (talk) 22:09, 19 April 2022 (UTC)
Strong Support WP:ACCESSIBILITY is important for a global encyclopaedia. Kappasi (talk) Kappasi (talk) 21:03, 22 April 2022 (UTC)
support. I don't have anything particularly profound to say, other than that I think the new map looks nice and pretty. Nate Hooper (talk) 12:06, 23 April 2022 (UTC)
Weak Oppose We don't really need it. The current map works fine, there's no need change it. Its an unnecessary change. CheeseInTea (talk) 12:17, 23 April 2022 (UTC)
It is requested that an edit be made to the extended-confirmed-protected article at Russian invasion of Ukraine. (edit · history · last · links · protection log)

This template must be followed by a complete and specific description of the request, that is, specify what text should be removed and a verbatim copy of the text that should replace it. "Please change X" is not acceptable and will be rejected; the request must be of the form "please change X to Y".

The edit may be made by any extended confirmed user. Remember to change the |answered=no parameter to "yes" when the request has been accepted, rejected or on hold awaiting user input. This is so that inactive or completed requests don't needlessly fill up the edit requests category. You may also wish to use the {{EEp}} template in the response. To request that a page be protected or unprotected, make a protection request.

Hi. I'm kindly requesting for an uninvolved editor to review this discussion, and implement the proposal at Template:2022 Russian invasion of Ukraine infobox. Melmann 07:23, 23 April 2022 (UTC)

  • I agree. The snowball consensus at the second discussion makes this discussion obsolete, since they're literally discussing the same issue (but with different proposals). Also, it's very improper to request the implementation of a controversial proposal when there's clearly strong opposition or division regarding the idea, as I am seeing here. Such action directly undermines WP:CONSENSUS, if not the very heart and soul of the policy. People should not be trying to overturn consensus, just because they don't like how the discussion turned out. I agree that this discussion should be closed, as it has basically become redundant and has been superceded by the outcome of the second discussion below. LightandDark2000 🌀 (talk) 01:29, 25 April 2022 (UTC)

Casualties

ANSWERED In accordance with WP:INFOBOXPURPOSE, the consensus here is not to report casualties in the infobox because reports vary so widely (as explained by Chesapeake77). They are tabulated in a section of the article. Cinderella157 (talk) 23:32, 15 April 2022 (UTC)

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Hey, just wanted to suggest that the casualty numbers get updated. They’re from Feb 25 I believe. I would try, but I’ve never edited an info box and I’m scared I’d mess it up. FinnSoThin (talk) 16:05, 15 April 2022 (UTC)

The Infobox avoids casualty numbers of any kind and there is a better way to handle that.
Instead, list the estimates from the most notable sources and say, for example "per Ukraine" or "per United Nations" or "per Russia", etc... and let the reader understand that. This is much better than deciding for the reader that they shouldn't know any of the notable estimates because the process is not perefect. Chesapeake77 (talk) 18:31, 15 April 2022 (UTC)
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Concerned that this was such a short discussion. I also think the "outcome" is not adequate, most Misplaced Pages articles about war DO have casualty claims from all notable parties in their Infoboxes. Each claim is mentioned as a "claim" and not a fact. Chesapeake77 (talk) 10:14, 16 April 2022 (UTC)
Of concerning note: this discussion was both started and closed (after only 2 hours and 25 minutes) on the same day (15 April) and only after 2 comments, a "conclusion" was drawn. Chesapeake77 (talk) 10:18, 16 April 2022 (UTC)
The consensus here was established by this discussion at: Talk:2022 Russian invasion of Ukraine/Archive 8#Should we continue to report casualties in the infobox, in accordance with WP:INFOBOXPURPOSE. I closed the discussion because your response to FinnSoThin appeared to be quite an adequate answer to the question they were posing. Cinderella157 (talk) 02:07, 21 April 2022 (UTC)

Problematic sentence about casualties

The article currently contains the following sentence:

"According to a researcher at the Department of Peace and Conflict Research at Uppsala University in Sweden, regarding Russian military losses, Ukraine's government was engaged in a misinformation campaign aimed to boost morale and Western media was generally happy to accept its claims."

There is no citation, which needs fixing. If there is no citation, the statement needs to be removed. If a valid citation does indeed exist, it needs to be put into context and verified (does wikipedia have a policy on statements of individual researchers?).

PerLugdunum (talk) 09:48, 16 April 2022 (UTC)

Add link to text in question. Cinderella157 (talk) 01:31, 21 April 2022 (UTC)
It's better to include the claims of various sides re: casualties and describe them as "claims". Otherwise then we are censoring and not allowing the reader to think for themselves.
Simply adding "per Ukraine" or "per the NATO" or "per Russia" to these numbers is far better than having an article with zero numbers.
Chesapeake77 (talk) 10:04, 16 April 2022 (UTC)
Source/citation is already there, right after the sentence that follows the one quoted by PerLugdunum, because the citation is a reference for both sentences. As for source verification, it has already been previously discussed and editor consensus is the source is reliable and there is no reason to exclude the sentence. EkoGraf (talk) 17:58, 16 April 2022 (UTC)
Thank you for pointing this out. Indeed, the quote is almost verbatim from the source. It was my mistake to assume the reference did not cover both sentences. My second question was about whether one should have statements attributed to "a researcher" as opposed to a large body of researchers. I know too little to suggest anything concrete and will not push this further. PerLugdunum (talk) 23:13, 16 April 2022 (UTC)

The whole discussion under the casualties is problematic. The truth will come out, whether or not certain "editors" can dissemble at the moment via weasel words about unnamed "researchers" and "analysts". Yellowmellow45 (talk) 12:54, 19 April 2022 (UTC)

As per previous editor consensus, the source is considered verifiable and the analysis is properly attributed. Also, per previous discussion, editors are welcomed and encouraged to add any other researcher opinions to show different points of view. EkoGraf (talk) 21:53, 19 April 2022 (UTC)
Consensus is settled on reliable sources WP:RS - when an opinion (e.g. of a "researcher" or "analyst") is provided, that person should be named and identifiable, and it is preferred that references to such research or analysis comes from the source, rather than newspaper reports. Clearly, the current fog of war makes it easier for editors to flout these standards. Yellowmellow45 (talk) 22:11, 19 April 2022 (UTC)
I just came across the second part "Analysts warned about accepting the Ukrainian...", and I have to say it looks cherry picked. The Guardian article it's referenced to is about Russian disinformation, with one sentence given over to talking about Ukrainian figures. - LCU ActivelyDisinterested ∆transmissions∆ °co-ords° 22:17, 19 April 2022 (UTC)
Looking at the other reference, which can be read here, it has the same problem. Most of the article is about the difficulty of obtaining the real figures, and although there is more on Ukrainian misinformation in it than the Guardian article. - LCU ActivelyDisinterested ∆transmissions∆ °co-ords° 22:22, 19 April 2022 (UTC)
Just to say I don't doubt Ukraine is pushing the higher estimate, and Russia suppressing the figures, that is what countries at war do. But there is a need for better sourcing. - LCU ActivelyDisinterested ∆transmissions∆ °co-ords° 22:23, 19 April 2022 (UTC)
Precisely. This is exactly the issue with a lot of sourcing on pages related to the invasion, so it's difficult to unpick, but it's something that more experienced editors should be aware of. Yellowmellow45 (talk) 22:24, 19 April 2022 (UTC)
I am concerned about the sentence "According to a researcher at the Department of Peace and Conflict Research at Uppsala University in Sweden, regarding Russian military losses, Ukraine's government was engaged in a misinformation campaign aimed to boost morale and Western media was generally happy to accept its claims.", which is near word for word copy from the source. It need sto be rewritten in your own words, as it's a copyright concern. - LCU ActivelyDisinterested ∆transmissions∆ °co-ords° 22:28, 19 April 2022 (UTC)
@Yellowmellow45:, first, for reference see previous discussion here . Now, if one of your issues is that the researcher is not named we can add his name (which is stated in the cited source). Further, there is no rule prohibiting us to cite media outlets as sources for analysis if the outlets are considered reliable sources (RS), which both Fortune and the Guardian are (and which you have been removing). Pinging editors @Cinderella157:@Slatersteven: who were involved in the previous discussion to show if they have changed their opinions, as well as some others @Mr.User200:@Beshogur:@Phiarc:@Jr8825:@KD0710:@LightandDark2000: who have been involved on the various similar issues and can possibly express an alternative opinion. Also, I would ask that you do not remove the text as you did here before reaching a new consensus and the discussion is closed. Finally, agree with @ActivelyDisinterested: that the Uppsala sentence needs to be reworded due to copyright and that the Guardian sentence needs more expansion regarding the Russian disinformation that is also the subject of the report. Also agree with ActivelyDisinterested, and I have already stated this many times before, more alternative/different analysis should be added to present all sides POV in a neutral manner. EkoGraf (talk) 22:43, 19 April 2022 (UTC)
Changing the second sentence to begin "The Guardian reports that analysts have warned about accepting the Ukrainian claims as", could be a start. We do need better sources for it to be more general. The first section shouldn't be reinstated with the current wording. Mentioning Shawn Davies by name word remove the "researcher" issue. - LCU ActivelyDisinterested ∆transmissions∆ °co-ords° 22:50, 19 April 2022 (UTC)
I don't see any problematic thing regarding that sentence, the citation fit the source. But to show a neutral tone we could begging with "The Guardian reports that according to one/two/etc analysts have warned about accepting the Ukrainian claims as premature/unbased/unproven not verificable, etc.Mr.User200 (talk) 23:11, 19 April 2022 (UTC)
The sentence that shouldn't be restored is the other one, referenced to fortune.com, that is nearly word for word copy from the fortune article. - LCU ActivelyDisinterested ∆transmissions∆ °co-ords° 23:23, 19 April 2022 (UTC)
I don't see anything particularly problematic with the sentence. If anything, it should be attributed to the researcher by name rather than the paper in which he was reported and might be tweaked so as not to be such a close copy. To the "Russian disinformation", pretty much everybody knows this, however; we can't expand on a simple statement if that simple statement is all we have sourced. We would need another source saying more IMHO. However (per the previous discussion) the existing sentences serve their purpose - neither the Russian nor the Ukranian claims can be considered accurate since both are (likely) inflated/deflated to serve state interests. Cinderella157 (talk) 23:36, 19 April 2022 (UTC)

In that section, the Guardian source doesn't really say what the text claims it says. At most it says that nobody really knows. Removing. Volunteer Marek 12:23, 20 April 2022 (UTC)

I also don't think that this one guy's opinion is really WP:DUE. Especially since it really boils down to "Ukraine’s claims about Russian deaths are exaggerated to some degree" which is to be expected. Gonna replace present text with that. Volunteer Marek 12:24, 20 April 2022 (UTC)

I think the current working is on the way to neutrality, but I do agree on the WP:DUE point. Having said that, there has been a massive improvement. Yellowmellow45 (talk) 12:33, 20 April 2022 (UTC)
And further on WP:DUE, Shawn Davies of Uppsala is a research assistant without any published papers, and a quick Google reveals this is his only public comment on any topic. Something to consider. Yellowmellow45 (talk) 12:38, 20 April 2022 (UTC)

@Volunteer Marek: you say the Guardian source doesn't say what's been written in the WP text, however the Guardian source says, and I quote, "And Ukrainian officials on Monday evening estimated that more than 15,000 Russian soldiers have been killed... Analysts have warned about taking that information at face value during a war where western countries want to emphasise the toll of the war on the Russian military while the Kremlin wants to downplay its losses". Thus, I would ask that you please reinstate and rewrite the sentence (if you think it doesn't fully represent what is written). As for the opinion expressed by the researcher regarding that Ukraine is engaged in a miss-information campaign for sake of moral, as both @Cinderella157: and @Mr.User200: have said, I also do not see anything problematic about including it. You inserted "Ukraine’s claims about Russian deaths are exaggerated to some degree". I think it nicely rewords the "miss-information campaign" bit, thanks, but I would expand this to "Ukraine’s claims about Russian deaths are exaggerated for sake of moral" or "Ukraine’s claims about Russian deaths, generally accepted by Western media, are exaggerated for sake of moral" since I see no reason to omit the purpose in his view of the Ukrainian's exaggeration or his obvious critic of the Western media. But I would settle with just the purpose of the exaggeration as stated by him (without the critic of the Western media). EkoGraf (talk) 14:06, 20 April 2022 (UTC)

The Guardian article doesn't mention it, but only in passing. It's one sentence in an article about Russian misinformation. Maybe a sentence could be craft using both the sources. Something like "The West has generally accepted Ukrainian figures, but these may have been inflated for the proposed purpose of moral.", but written with better prose.
I still feel the problem is one of needing better sources, unfortunately reliable independent Russian sources are hard to come by. - LCU ActivelyDisinterested ∆transmissions∆ °co-ords° 15:02, 20 April 2022 (UTC)
@ActivelyDisinterested: What you just wrote actually sounds pretty good and if it was something along those lines I would support such a (merged) sentence with citation to both sources. EkoGraf (talk) 15:31, 20 April 2022 (UTC)
@Yellowmellow45:@Volunteer Marek:, any opinions on this as a possible compromise? - LCU ActivelyDisinterested ∆transmissions∆ °co-ords° 15:41, 20 April 2022 (UTC)
Yeah sounds good. Thanks. Volunteer Marek 16:52, 20 April 2022 (UTC)
I think the "may...to a degree" version is closer to the source and the "for the sake of morale" veers towards original research and possible bias. This is a current event and it's better to be cautious about imputing things that are not yet clear. Yellowmellow45 (talk) 17:46, 20 April 2022 (UTC)
Would you accept "The West has generally accepted Ukrainian figures, but these may have been inflated to emphasise the toll on the Russian Military.", which is closer to the sources. - LCU ActivelyDisinterested ∆transmissions∆ °co-ords° 17:56, 20 April 2022 (UTC)
"for the sake of morale" is not original research since its what's in the source nor is it bias since its properly attributed with RS citation (this was already reaffirmed in the previous discussion) and we leave our readers to make their own opinion. A third source can also be added, which also goes into both boosting of Ukrainian morale and Russian downplaying of its losses . First, as suggested, "The West has generally accepted Ukrainian figures, but these may have been inflated to emphasize the toll on the Russian Military for the sake of of morale." Additionally, all three sources can be used as citations for Russia's downplaying of its losses. Further, the part "Ukraine was quieter on its own military fatalities." (can attribute to Davies) but an additional second source (directly from Ukraine) can also be cited as well . Sentence can be reworded. Finally, the third AJ source I mentioned earlier and the Ukrainian one I just mentioned can also be used to point out both Russia's and Ukraine's admissions at one point of suffering "significant" and "considerable" losses respectively. EkoGraf (talk) 21:20, 20 April 2022 (UTC)
  • I have previously stated that I found the previous text fairly satisfactory. The attributed assertion is not an exceptional claim - ie that claims by either side should be treated skeptically. It is a fact of war that should not be ignored just because we (the West) perceive Ukraine as the good guy. The previous statement was simple and direct to this point - both sides are playing the propaganda game (ie they are managing information to their own ends). I think that this current iteration is neither as succinct nor as direct. IMHO Cinderella157 (talk) 02:41, 21 April 2022 (UTC)
    • @Cinderella157: Yeah, agree with you, as I said before, I also did not find anything wrong with the sentence nor did I see it as an exceptional claim taking into account the proper attribution. But trying to find a middle ground taking into account the concerns of the above editors. EkoGraf (talk) 10:12, 21 April 2022 (UTC)
      • EkoGraf, I don't think the concerns are particularly strong. A close paraphrase of a single sentence in a greater source where the source is attributed is (IMHO) fair use and not a significant concern. I acknowledge your intentions but I don't think that the changes (beyond specifically reporting the person to which it is attributed) are necessary or an improvement. Regards, Cinderella157 (talk) 11:26, 21 April 2022 (UTC)

Invasion

I don't feel that invasion is correct term for Russia's "operation". Russia is murdering and terrorising civilians, destroying homes and infrastructure, and forcefully transporting Ukrainian citizens to Russia. There are too many incidents for this to be a case of few hot-headed individuals; this is part of their plan.

Those cities that are not under Russian control are bombed ruthlessly, targeting as many casualties and/or fear as possible. Those cities that are under Russian control are terrorised in the most despicable, cruel, and inhuman ways.

It is more and more evident that the goal of this operation is to destroy Ukraine, not to invade it. This means destroying Ukrainian culture and cities, murdering huge amount of Ukrainians, and trying to scare those who are alive to become Russians.

I agree with one thing that the Russian propaganda is spitting out: this should not be called "war". Even in war there are some rules, and there can even be something humane as a reason for war.

Alas, my English skills are not strong enough to find an accurate name for this operation. Invasion sounds too neutral, and does not convey the message that Russia is trying to commit genocide. Optimally, the term would also say that Russia is committing acts of terrorism. 130.234.128.26 (talk) 17:04, 17 April 2022 (UTC)

We go with what wp:RS say. Slatersteven (talk) 17:07, 17 April 2022 (UTC)
I agree with both the IP and Slatersteven. Yes, we should go with RS. When we named this article, early on the in the war, most RS used 'invasion'. At this point, more than 50 days in, my impression is that most RS are talking about "Russia's war on Ukraine", with War having become much more common than simply Invasion. Jeppiz (talk) 19:29, 17 April 2022 (UTC)
We have that already. Slatersteven (talk) 10:01, 18 April 2022 (UTC)
The war on Ukraine is already an article. It encompasses the topics of Crimea and the Donbas as well as the current invasion. For now, this invasion is just another (very devastating) phase of a pre-extant war. ☢️Plutonical☢️ᶜᵒᵐᵐᵘⁿᶦᶜᵃᵗᶦᵒⁿˢ 13:25, 19 April 2022 (UTC)

Discussing colour changes for c:File:2022 Russian invasion of Ukraine.svg

IMPLEMENT Close per WP:SNOW. There is clearly overwhelming consensus in support of option 1 as a preferred colourblind friendly version of the map. I would ask the OP, LightandDark2000 (or any other editors active there), to take such actions at Commons necessary to implement this version. Cinderella157 (talk) 02:00, 24 April 2022 (UTC)

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Moved: was at Talk:2022 Russian invasion of Ukraine#Changing the main map to the colourblind-friendly version

  • Comment: I think a much better proposal would be to use the colors I proposed on Commons, as shown below. One option for making the Ukrainian territory a lighter yellow (my personal preference, I think), and another option for making the Russian territory a slightly darker shade of pink (the closest option to the current colors and my proposal). Both of them have good contrast, are distinguishable both for normal vision and colorblind readers, and are similar to the current, widely-accepted map colors. Not only that, but these colors are more intuitive and aesthetically pleasing. LightandDark2000 🌀 (talk) 17:22, 18 April 2022 (UTC)
Options 1-4 as being discussed (on the Commons discussion).
Option 1
Land Arrow
Ukraine      
Russia      
Option 2
Land Arrow
Ukraine      
Russia      

The colorblind simulations are in the respective links, so please have a look at those. LightandDark2000 🌀 (talk) 17:22, 18 April 2022 (UTC)

The images shown to the right depict the color schemes currently being discussed and voted on on Commons. And I'd prefer the first three to the proposal in question here. LightandDark2000 🌀 (talk) 01:37, 19 April 2022 (UTC)

Test map with blue (0099F7) arrows
Original colorblind friendly map color

I would much rather us stick with the status quo than switch to a new color scheme that is as jarring and unappealing as the proposal in this discussion, especially as it still has contrast issues. I'd even prefer one of the two map options I listed just above to the proposal (the current map with blue arrows, and the original colorblind-friendly map), but I prefer the proposed colors that I have laid out. Also, I think we could really use a color theory professional here, as the colors in the proposal were rather poorly-chosen. LightandDark2000 🌀 (talk) 17:22, 18 April 2022 (UTC)

Both options look much better than the White & Orange. Both of these choices look much more visually appealing to non colorblind viewers than the White & Orange proposal. I personally think option 1 is better visually, but it appears that option 2 would be better for colorblind viewers as it has a little more contrast. Physeters 21:20, 18 April 2022 (UTC)

@Greyshark09, Spesh531, Kwamikagami, Dawsongfg, RobiHi, Outth, Eoiuaa, Kippenvlees1, Symmachus Auxiliarus, Chesapeake77, Fogener Haus, Physeters, Viewsridge, Lx 121, Berrely, HurricaneEdgar, MarioJump83, Tradedia, Ermanarich, Brobt, CentreLeftRight, Wiz9999, Borysk5, Oganesson007, Nate Hooper, Rob984, Ceha, AlphaMikeOmega, WeifengYang, PutItOnAMap, TheNavigatrr, Beshogur, AntonSamuel, Paolowalter, and Emk9: Pinging other users with an interest in this topic, and those with experiencing in working with military conflict maps. LightandDark2000 🌀 (talk) 17:22, 18 April 2022 (UTC)

@EkoGraf, Rr016, Tan Khaerr, Kami888, and MrPenguin20: Missed a few. LightandDark2000 🌀 (talk) 17:30, 18 April 2022 (UTC)
  • Option 1 is my first choice I prefer this to the other proposals as it does the best job resolving the issue of contrast which is important. Plus the background color is better in Option 1 than Option 2 (brighter, whereas Option 2 is a bit dim). Chesapeake77 (talk) 00:51, 19 April 2022 (UTC)
  • Option 1 - I think this option satisfies all objections above, assuming it is correct to say that this version is still colorblind friendly. The lower contrast does not "make Russian gains seem overwhelmingly dominant". I also agree that the original proposal created MORE difficulty viewing it for NON-colorblind people, and option 1 does not do this. I approve, in general, of the goal to increase accessibility for colorblind users, but I also agree that the original proposal was not the best option to do this. I do think the new option 1 should suffice. Fieari (talk) 05:56, 19 April 2022 (UTC)

Comment: I've split this discussion because it has nothing to do with the specific proposal listed in Talk:2022 Russian invasion of Ukraine#Changing the main map to the colourblind-friendly_version. That proposal is about replacing the one file with a specific different file, and this one discussed details of a commons file, a discussion which should normally be had on the file's talk page, not here. Melmann 06:37, 19 April 2022 (UTC)

Option 1 appears to be the best across the four simulations and for unimpaired vision. Cinderella157 (talk) 09:24, 19 April 2022 (UTC)

Option 1 but perhaps with light yellow arrows instead of blue. Viewsridge (talk) 11:31, 19 April 2022 (UTC)

Option 1 has the best contrast for the arrows, but all of them are great improvements in presentation. If none of them were used, the original colorblind-friendly one is also an improvement by itself and could be the main one. Rauisuchian (talk) 13:42, 19 April 2022 (UTC)

Option visually ok, if it helps colorblind too. Beshogur (talk) 16:18, 19 April 2022 (UTC)

Comment: I do not see a version I particularly like here: for 1–3, the colour of the arrows is too different to that of their background, while for 4 it is too similar. Obviously, the arrows must contrast to the background, but this is weighed against the fact that a map is more intuitive when each side is assigned a single colour. Dark-red arrows on a light-red/orange background is a good compromise for Russia, but for Ukraine, blue on yellow and grey on beige are unintuitive and unsightly. Have white (#FFFFFF) arrows been tried for Ukraine? I imagine these would work well on either yellow or beige backgrounds. In general, I think the arrows would look best as a lighter/darker shade of the colour behind them. —AlphaMikeOmega (talk) 16:30, 19 April 2022 (UTC)

Option 1 or the original colorblind-friendly version. Options three and four have a really unpleasantly strong yellow, I'd strongly oppose these two.--Ermanarich (talk) 21:40, 19 April 2022 (UTC)

Option 1 As a colorblind person option 1 looks best-looking to me. EkoGraf (talk) 22:11, 19 April 2022 (UTC)

Option 1, including color mark change Per EkoGraf, and I think mark colors should be changed too, not just yellow but something other than that. Cyan or blue would be good MarioJump83! 08:47, 21 April 2022 (UTC)

Going to be a bit WP:BOLD here, but can we close the voting on here (and wherever else votes have taken place)? Option 1 is a clear winner here, at least for being the colorblind-friendly color scheme (at the very least for arrows and territorial control). Does the "Air and ground bombardments" icon need to be changed? They contrast well with both the new Ukrainian yellow control and the Russian red (which is the same as the original). If there's an agreement on the other icons, then Option 1 and the Original need to be put up to a vote. Spesh531 05:48, 23 April 2022 (UTC)

Looks like the voting is a WP:SNOWPRO in favor, somebody should close this. -- Rauisuchian (talk) 19:29, 23 April 2022 (UTC)
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

A Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for speedy deletion

The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for speedy deletion:

You can see the reason for deletion at the file description page linked above. —Community Tech bot (talk) 22:37, 19 April 2022 (UTC)

Battle of Kherson splitting notice

A split proposal is ongoing on the Battle of Kherson article. Feel free to participate in the discussion here. Elijahandskip (talk) 00:25, 20 April 2022 (UTC)

A Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for speedy deletion

The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for speedy deletion:

You can see the reason for deletion at the file description page linked above. —Community Tech bot (talk) 17:37, 20 April 2022 (UTC)

Structure for sections based on chronological periods, as per previous talk page discussion

Hi. Based upon the beginning of a new Russian offensive in the East of Ukraine, we will move ahead soon to create a new section for the current time period, based upon viewing this as a new chronological period of the conflict. This is based upon a consensus to structure the article sections on the conflict, based on chronological periods, as per previous talk page discussion. You can click the link to view the full discussion, which has now been archived. Anyone is welcome to comment, of course. thanks. --Sm8900 (talk) 19:21, 20 April 2022 (UTC)

The previous discussion spoke of the Siege of Mariupol needing to come to a conclusion before discussing options, however, the siege has not come to an end. Your link above does not link to anything, and its not clear what you mean since the siege of Mariupol is still in progress. ErnestKrause (talk) 19:30, 20 April 2022 (UTC)
hi. I revised the link, in order to point to the correct section on the archived talk page. Actually, the talk page discussion related to the start of the Russian offensive in the east of Ukraine. I do appreciate your thoughtful reply on this. --Sm8900 (talk) 19:37, 20 April 2022 (UTC)
You have just restored that missing link. The discussion there spoke of the advantages of waiting for the siege of Mariupol to be resolved, and the forces are still continuing the siege as of this morning in the linked Misplaced Pages article for the siege. The main editing for the new "eastern" offensive to which you refer has moved to the new article for War in Donbas were the details of this second phase of the invasion are being dealt with, and which I linked this morning. Since Misplaced Pages now has the new article for the War in Donbas, then most of the questions you previously asked seem to have been redirected there for current updates. The article here currently links the War in Donbas article as a continuation of the Invasion of the Southeastern front where you can find the link. ErnestKrause (talk) 19:46, 20 April 2022 (UTC)
thanks. Sm8900 (talk) 14:47, 21 April 2022 (UTC)
  • All three editors seem in agreement that the siege of Mariupol should not hinder the refactoring of the section for the Second phase of the invasion. The appropriate start date for this appears to be the day 8 April that the combined forces were put under the change os a single general for the first time in the campaign, under General Dvornikov. Starting to refactor Invasion section according to agreement of all three editors. ErnestKrause (talk) 00:04, 22 April 2022 (UTC)

Armed activity of other states for defense/release of their citizens in Ukraine

There are sources that Belorusian and Bulgarian troops take activity for defense/release of their citizens in Ukraine. May be suitable for Foreign military involvement section. Alex Spade (talk) 20:23, 20 April 2022 (UTC)

A Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion

The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion:

Participate in the deletion discussion at the nomination page. —Community Tech bot (talk) 22:07, 20 April 2022 (UTC)

Refugees section - forced relocation

The text in the refugees section currently says:

Thousands of refugees arriving in Russia appeared to have been forcibly relocated using 'filtration centers', evoking the memory of Soviet era population transfers and prior Russian use of such centers in the Chechen War of Independence to suppress evidence of war crimes. As of 8 April, Russia evacuated approximately 121,000 Mariupol residents to Russia, with some allegedly having been sent to work there. RIA Novosti and Ukrainian officials stated that thousands were dispatched to various filtration centers in both Russian and Russian-occupied Ukrainian cities, from which people were redirected to economically depressed regions of Russia.

References

  1. Peter, Laurence (27 March 2022). "Russia transfers thousands of Mariupol civilians to its territory". BBC News. Retrieved 1 April 2022.
  2. ^ Mackintosh, Eliza; Ochman, Oleksandra; Mezzofiore, Gianluca; Polglase, Katie; Rebane, Teele; Graham-Yooll, Anastasia (8 April 2022). "Russia or die: After weeks under Putin's bombs, these Ukrainians were given only one way out". CNN. Retrieved 9 April 2022.
  4. Куприянова, Ольга (24 March 2022). "Фильтрационные лагеря и трудоустройство на Сахалине: украинцев из оккупированных городов принудительно отправляют в россию" . 1+1 (in Russian). Retrieved 20 April 2022.

A great deal of this should be "Ukrainian accuses" rather than WP:VOICE, while other parts don't appear to be in the sources/and or are editorialising (covering war crimes?). I can't read many of the Ru and Ukr sources so cannot fix. A similar text was copied to the Refugee crisis page, but much of it removed as WP:OR while other parts were altereed to Ukr claims. Pincrete (talk) 07:28, 21 April 2022 (UTC)

Pincrete, thank you for sharing your point of view. However, changing the article to "Ukrainian accuses" doesn't seem to resolve the issue and seems to violate WP:VOICE. Perhaps in place of "Ukrainian accuses" we could use "it has been reported" which takes a neutral point of view in place of using the word "accuses" which is a lot more polarizing. This issue is difficult because there are a lot of strong opinions on both sides of this issue, it is an ongoing current event and it is polarizing. However, I believe we need to take a neutral approach in our editing. I would appreciate your thoughts on this issue. Jurisdicta (talk) 17:45, 22 April 2022 (UTC)
No objection to "has been reported", "Ukraine accuses", was merely meant to make the point that at present it is almost impossible for any news source to verify many of these claims. Pincrete (talk) 10:52, 24 April 2022 (UTC)

Crimea

I assume that the article describes Crimea as part of Russia. The infobox does not mention Crimea, but the lead says "the two occupied territories of Ukraine (Crimea and Donbas)". Some unification would be useful.
Some Tatars do not want to be conscripted https://www.ukrinform.net/rubric-ato/3441479-crimean-tatar-leader-appeals-to-people-in-crimea-to-dodge-russian-army-draft.html

Conscription of inhabitants of occupied areas is, as far as I know, illegal. The same in occupied Eastern Ukraine.Xx236 (talk) 07:32, 21 April 2022 (UTC)

It is Elinruby (talk) 02:45, 24 April 2022 (UTC)

A Prelude to World War Three?

The Royal Navy nuclear powered submarine HMS Audacious sailed from Gibraltar after several days in port, during which it loaded Tomahawk missiles while berthed alongside the Z Berth in the South Mole of the dockyard. The vessel was seen heading into the Mediterranean after leaving Gibraltar. The American nuclear powered submarine USS Georgia also docked at Gibraltar two days prior to the British submarine. Its destination is unknown.

Five USAF F15Es and a tanker plane where pictured flying in formation over the Strait of Gibraltar at 20,000 feet on Wednesday 20/04/2022. The planes had just taken off from the USAF base at Moron, Spain and were believed to be heading to the Middle East. If this last detail is correct, then Middle East could include Turkey and from Turkey to Ukraine is just a short hop across the Black Sea. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 195.244.210.117 (talk) 10:53, 21 April 2022 (UTC)

Pleae see wp:crystal, this is pure speculation. Slatersteven (talk) 10:57, 21 April 2022 (UTC)
WP:NOTAFORUM 50.111.30.135 (talk) 19:50, 23 April 2022 (UTC)

References

  1. Gibraltar Chronicle newspaper; 21/04/2022; Page 1
  2. Gibraltar Chronicle newspaper; 21/04/2022; Page 17

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 21 April 2022

This edit request to 2022 Russian invasion of Ukraine has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request.

Dear Misplaced Pages editors,

I am writing to report the map that shows the Russian invasion of Ukraine. The names of the cities that are written in English are transliterated from Ukrainian and are spelled correctly. However, the names of the cities that are spelled in the Cyrillic alphabet are spelled in Russian and not in Ukrainian!

Please change the spelling of those cities whose names are written in the Cyrillic alphabet from Russian to Ukrainian.

Thank you! 188.163.232.130 (talk) 11:43, 21 April 2022 (UTC)

This request should be handled on Commons at Commons:File talk:2022 Russian invasion of Ukraine.svg. The map has Russian translations but not Ukrainian translations. Glrx (talk) 17:57, 22 April 2022 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 22 April 2022

DONE Part done and reason given. Cinderella157 (talk) 01:36, 24 April 2022 (UTC)

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

This edit request to 2022 Russian invasion of Ukraine has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request.

Certain city names are in their Russian forms are opposed to Ukrainian ones. Mikolaev and Odessa, for example, should be spelled Mykolaiv and Odesa respectively. Ian Lautert da Costa (talk) 12:43, 22 April 2022 (UTC)

I changed "Mikolaev" to "Mykolaiv" as the article is Mykolaiv. The Russian-based form is Nikolayev/Nikolaev, not Mikolaev. Odessa should remain unchanged because the article is Odessa. Mellk (talk) 13:35, 22 April 2022 (UTC)
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

"Byelorus"

DONE Done Cinderella157 (talk) 01:37, 24 April 2022 (UTC)

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

I am not logged in at the moment, but I am assuming that in the sentence "At the start of the invasion on 24 February, the northern front was launched out of Byelorus and targeting Kyiv", the intended word is "Belarus"? I am not familiar with geography in the region but I do not believe that Byelorus is a place. Can an editor rectify please. 82.15.196.46 (talk) 13:33, 22 April 2022 (UTC)

I corrected it. Probably someone confused with Byelorussia/Belorussia. Mellk (talk) 13:38, 22 April 2022 (UTC)
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 22 April 2022 (2)

This edit request to 2022 Russian invasion of Ukraine has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request.

Add Denis Pushilin and Leonid Pasechnik, leaders of the DPR LPR to commanders Scu ba (talk) 15:04, 22 April 2022 (UTC)

 Not done Denis Pushilin has a single mention in the body of the article and Leonid Pasechnik has no mention. Addition of either is supported by the body of the article (per WP:INFOBOXPURPOSE. Cinderella157 (talk) 02:17, 24 April 2022 (UTC)

Elements of "proxy war"?

Hello everyone, I'd like to bring up something that I think this article lacks, and that is the issue of this being a "proxy war". I've identified some sources that seem to describe this as a proxy war in some way:

https://www.newyorker.com/news/daily-comment/the-long-holy-war-behind-putins-political-war-in-ukraine https://www.lawfareblog.com/what-does-arming-insurgency-ukraine-mean https://www.abc.net.au/news/2022-03-25/nato-us-in-proxy-war-with-russia-biden-next-move-crucial/100937196

The definition of "proxy war": https://dictionary.cambridge.org/us/dictionary/english/proxy-war

"a war fought between groups or smaller countries that each represent the interests of other larger powers..."

Clearly, with NATO/US steadfast refusal to engage directly and materiel support for Ukraine, it's a proxy on some level. On the Russian end, it's less clear--Russia has historically been considered more of the "military superpower" over China, but with their (alleged) underperformance, and with the potential of becoming economically dependent on China in the face of Western sanctions, perhaps they are the ones fighting the proxy on behalf of the superpower? This article does not mention "proxy" anywhere. Allegedly, the Moskva was sunk by Ukrainian missiles...but let's not pretend that Western-made Javelins weren't crucial to many Ukraine successes. How would this get added? Also, I can't seem to edit the page. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Noble Metalloid (talk • contribs) 19:04, 22 April 2022 (UTC)

The idea of this being a "proxy war" is part of the Russian propaganda and represents a strong POV. Perhaps a mention of it could be made when describing Russian propaganda efforts, but certainly not claiming in Wikivoice that Russia's brutal aggression on a neighbour is a proxy war. Jeppiz (talk) 22:11, 22 April 2022 (UTC)

Oh, I wouldn’t advocate for calling it that, because it isn’t one. I was wondering if it would be helpful to discuss the debate over whether this is a proxy war. Lawfare is a far cry from Russian propaganda, and they’re game for at least discussing the idea. We haven’t even sold them MIGs (alternatively, they may be paperweights) due to fears of over-involvement. Providing small arms to the underdog defending themselves against a Goliath does not suggest nefarious proxy war geopoliticking, quite the contrary. Mentioning a proxy war in the way I envision would involve mostly saying why it isn’t one, per the sources. If you omit discussing this out of fear of parroting Russian propaganda, you risk creating a “forbidden fruit”. Noble Metalloid (talk) 23:31, 22 April 2022 (UTC)

Its not a proxy was, as far as I am aware no RS has called it proxy war. Slatersteven (talk) 09:16, 23 April 2022 (UTC)

that isn't what was proposed Elinruby (talk) 21:27, 24 April 2022 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 22 April 2022 (3)

DONE Done Cinderella157 (talk) 02:19, 24 April 2022 (UTC)

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

This edit request to 2022 Russian invasion of Ukraine has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request.

Please change the caption of the animated map of the invasion under the heading "Invasion and Resistance" from "An animated map of the invasion from 24 February to 9 April" to "An animated map of the invasion from 24 February to 21 April". The animated map has been updated and the newest date is now 21 April. K1401986Talk with me 22:15, 22 April 2022 (UTC)

The date has been updated. Viewsridge (talk) 12:17, 23 April 2022 (UTC)
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

supporting country ?

In the table of the parties to the conflict there is Belarus as a supporting country, should the countries providing material support, including military support to Ukraine, not be included ? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.111.119.54 (talk) 12:36, 23 April 2022 (UTC)

sign your posts with four consecutive tildas ( ~ ) 50.111.30.135 (talk) 19:48, 23 April 2022 (UTC)

Need to include in the right square of the article the contries that are supporting Ukraine

Need to include in the right square of the article the contries that are supporting Ukraine, like is put in all other wikipedia pages on wars and conflicts. There are lots of them that are sending weapons, instructors, food, rations, blocking russian sales, etc. All of this is publicly known, verified by press reports of both sides of the conflict. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 190.188.140.133 (talk) 13:26, 23 April 2022 (UTC)

If you mean the list of combatants, only those parties actually using weapons/fighting are listed. This has been discussed many times already.50.111.30.135 (talk) 19:46, 23 April 2022 (UTC)
That is not true. We put the list of supporting countries in the "Prelude to the 2022 Russian invasion of Ukraine" article and there are plenty of other precedents Please note that we clearly label "Supported by:".
I think it's time to put it here too: 1) the Western support with weapons is substantial (especially as heavy weapons are now being supplied); 2) it is notable (WP:N) and there are plenty of WP:RS about the subject. Mindaur (talk) 20:25, 23 April 2022 (UTC)
I support adding them as well. Super Ψ Dro 21:17, 23 April 2022 (UTC)
"Supported by" is included under the belligerents section of many wars. See Nigerian Civil War for a clear example. The page for the Syrian civil war also includes this information. Not including it here is strange. 86.22.31.94 (talk) 21:53, 23 April 2022 (UTC)
See #Link to closed and archived RfC: Should the individual arms supplying countries be added to the infobox?. The consensus was that countries supplying material or diplomatic support to Ukraine did not meet the threshold to be included in the infobox as "supported by", whereas, the direct access for conduct of the invasion provided by Belarus crossed this threshold. Countries supporting Ukraine is discussed at 2022 Russian invasion of Ukraine#Foreign military involvement and 2022 Russian invasion of Ukraine#Sanctions and ramifications. There is too much detail for this to be "summarised" and consequently, its inclusion in the infobox would fail WP:INFOBOXPURPOSE. Cinderella157 (talk) 01:31, 24 April 2022 (UTC)
This is clearly inconsistent with a wide variety of other Misplaced Pages articles on wars, and additionally whether the countries that would be in the infobox support Ukraine with lethal or non-lethal aid could be disclosed using parentheses. 2601:18F:681:7850:8068:AF36:22CF:56CB (talk) 04:19, 24 April 2022 (UTC)
It is nonetheless the consensus here, arrived at after extensive discussions. WP:OTHERSTUFFEXISTS is not a mandate. Cinderella157 (talk) 04:58, 24 April 2022 (UTC)

Talk:Battle of Kherson‎#Requested move 24 April 2022

Please be notified of Talk:Battle of Kherson‎#Requested move 24 April 2022. It affects many articles related to the invasion. The proposal is to move from "battle of X" to "battle for X". Cinderella157 (talk) 05:09, 24 April 2022 (UTC)

External links

The external links to CNN, Reuters, etc seem excessive and UNDUE. Anyone can google to find these and they are not encyclopedic. Focus on the more necessary ones and try to cut the list to 3 or so. WP:NOTDIR and WP:EL both apply. I would be bold and remove, but I am not a regular editor and thought this might have been discussed? Jtbobwaysf (talk) 10:02, 24 April 2022 (UTC)

Page protection

I have now requested page protection, enough is enough. Slatersteven (talk) 12:54, 24 April 2022 (UTC)

Supporting. ErnestKrause (talk) 17:09, 24 April 2022 (UTC)

No fly zone

Should we change "NATO and its member states also refused to send troops into Ukraine as this would risk a larger-scale war, a decision which some experts have labeled as a policy of appeasement" to "NATO and its member states also refused to send troops into Ukraine , or to establish a no fly-zone, as this would risk a larger-scale war, a decision which some experts have labeled as a policy of appeasement.", as it is sourced already. Slatersteven (talk) 13:45, 24 April 2022 (UTC)

+1. Reason: The "no-fly zone" request is prominently in the first sentence at Government and intergovernmental reactions to the 2022 Russian invasion of Ukraine#Ukraine, so mentioning it here is good. --User:Haraldmmueller 14:11, 24 April 2022 (UTC)
+1. I agree with Harald's reasoning. UlyssorZebra (talk) 14:19, 24 April 2022 (UTC)
'No boots on the ground' and 'no planes in the air' is the consistent policy adopted throughout the invasion by supporting foreign governments. ErnestKrause (talk) 17:08, 24 April 2022 (UTC)
Categories: