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Revision as of 04:47, 22 February 2007

This article was nominated for deletion on 2006-12-22. The result of the discussion was Keep (Nomination withdrawn).

This document is trying to be hijacked by two opposing views. I think it is better to have a session about what is NDF by the "NDF people" and What critics says about by its "critics". The information in WIKI should be neutral to the readers for its own neutrality. It is not a place for war. The issue on Marad is controversial. It is true that Five brothors have brutally killed in Marad-2, but it should be read with that in Marad-1, on which the opposite also lost their life. If something happens(Prays not to happen) in future then we shouldn't treat it as a seperate one. We should keep all in a sequense and treat it together to bring the culprits to account and bring the society to harmony before the Marad-1. Let the views talk each other and indian democracy is powerful enough to give the opposing views have its own importance. Let wiki be neutral.

by anonymous

I've rewritten the article today, keeping closely to what has been published by reliable sources and focusing it on the National Democratic Front. There is also a redirect here from National Development Front at the moment, but that is not substantiated by the sources I've seen. --Mereda 15:58, 29 December 2006 (UTC)

Copied from User:Mereda talk page -

The Rss/BJP/Muslim league were not involved in the Marad massacre, it was the NDF and later the Araya Samajam. The terrorists massacred five Hindus at the beach, the police killed one terrorist in crossfire, the terrorists hid inside a mosque. When the police tried to get them, a mob of the terrorists wives surrounded the Mosque, barring entry.The police later found bombs, and swords there. By then, the Araya Samajam and VHP had evicted all terrorists from the area, and as of now, I dont think the terrorists have been able to return, even with pleas from the Communist party.Bakaman 17:05, 29 December 2006 (UTC)

sabrang

Its an unreliable partisan org and their page reads like SIMI propaganda.Bakaman 00:31, 1 January 2007 (UTC)

All organizations, newspapers and publications are in some way partisan. If you think is SIMI propaganda, well then the definition of 'SIMI propaganda' is stretched as widely that virtually any written text can fall under that definition.

The problem is not that a source can be politically tilted. The question to maintain a NPOV outlook is to be able to weed out POV formulations in sources to write an NPOV encyclopediatic tone in an wiki article. It would not be ok to write the article on BJP relying only/mainly on Congress sources, and neither should the article on Congress be based on RSS/BJP-affiliated websites. That I cannot understand in this case, is why you find it objectionable to mention that NDF is in conflict not only with the Hindu groups but also with the majority of the Muslim community in Kerala? The only explanation I could come up with is that it spoils your own communal agenda of picturing all local political conflicts in India as parts of greater epic battle between Hindus and non-Hindus. --Soman 15:41, 1 January 2007 (UTC)

Well its obvious the NDF is in conflict with Muslims in Kerala. The vast majority of Muslims are not terrorist maniacs. Sabrang is not a reliable source, its partisan.Thats why I only used mainstream sources for the article. I myself quoted the CBI report but I think it hurt you to see fellow anti-Hindus getting smacked by the rule of law. I dont find it objectionable to show the NDF is in conflict with local Muslims (after all Kerala is home to four groups: Christians, Muslims, communists, and Hindus). My communal agenda? I'm sorry that I cant be an apologist for the genocide of innocent fishermen and have to call a terrorist a terrorist. Perhaps you didnt realize Hindus and Muslims are not "classes" and that Terrorists are no proletariat.Bakaman 17:55, 1 January 2007 (UTC)

You seriously need to study Marxist concepts of class, before making half-baked analogies. --Soman 18:03, 1 January 2007 (UTC)

"Epic battles between Hindu and non-Hindus"? "Communal agenda"? Oh no, Sonia Gandhi maine maaf karo.Bakaman 18:09, 1 January 2007 (UTC)

battle, not battles. There is a difference in meaning. --Soman 18:25, 1 January 2007 (UTC)

There is no organisation named National Democratic Front in Kerala. i think the user had given partisan data and is not relevent. No government or any enquiry commmison reported NDF worked behind Marrad massacre. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Sm ashiq (talk • contribs)

If that's true, then why did you create the article? --Sigma 7 08:49, 1 January 2007 (UTC)

Move

If you read the Malayalam text on Image:Kerala2006_(18).JPG, the name of the organization is actually National Development Front. --Soman 15:45, 1 January 2007 (UTC)

Support - correct name.Bakaman 17:57, 1 January 2007 (UTC)

There is no organisation named National Democratic Front in Kerala. It is National Development Front. Please move to the later.

I've completed the page move. Cheers. -GTBacchus 18:17, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

some points

• Terrorism, is a word to avoid. The NDFFare undoubtably involved in political and communal killings, but that is not the same as being a terrorist in its encyclopediatic definition. See similar arguments about Shiv Sena at List of terrorist organizations.
• ISI connections? Needs to be backed up by other quotes than from politicians. The standard explanation that all evil is a foreign import is mainstay in Indian politics, and accusations of ISI links to quite widely distributed. (Likewise allegations of RAW connections in Bangladesh).
• Role in Muslim communal politics in the state? See for example
• Regarding political alliance building, .

--Soman 18:24, 1 January 2007 (UTC)

Similar arguments? Especially because you were the only person making the argument. They were implicated in the massacre of Hindus, and in rampant assassinations of their political enemies.Bakaman 18:43, 1 January 2007 (UTC)

--Sundaram7 06:41, 21 January 2007 (UTC)

Dear editors, please see the edited pages in this articles. May be you are not aware of this organisation in deep. I have gathered the information from reliable medias and sources. NDF is accused of terrorism and killing innocents. But it is not in the agenda of NDF. It work for freedom and human rights of common people in the country. See its website in the references.Sundaram7 06:41, 21 January 2007 (UTC)

Try to be neutral and non-biased for this article

I have seen two parties making arguments and counter arguments on putting artcles on NDF. I am not going to argue too much on what is ndf and what is not. But it is not fair to put only what they are not or what they are accused for.

As there were a lot of discussion on Murders and killings before, I am not getting into the topic. CPM and RSS everyday fights in kannur and blood is spilled all over kerala due to political killings and revenges. Sometimes these parties tries to accuse other smaller organisations for these nonsense. They use media and power to accuse the parties like NDF to escape from the responsibilites.

When you read NDF's publications and watch its activities closely, you will understand one thing: it is against the social evils and it stand srongly like killing of innocents especially by buerocrats and fascists.

It is quite strnge to see in the articles on robbery and murders in NDF's name. This arguments need to be removed.

Living in kerala, I have seen ISS and NDF. They are different. NDF is not a violant organisation ISS and it is not a organisation to fight RSS. As they claims their aim is the empowerment of musim mass and other backward people. We can say they are communal, but they are not a terrorist and extremist organisaiton. Ganeshco 13:23, 22 January 2007 (UTC)

Yes iss a terrorist org headed by Abdul Nazir Madani. What you define ISS/NDF as is irrelevant, as NDF activists were directly implicated in the massacre of Hindus.`Bakaman 21:10, 22 January 2007 (UTC)

Editors, Baka , Soman, sundaram7, please dont play with this topic. When ISS is dispersed, Madani had started his PDP and his followers started working in it. NDF has links to PDP and ISS. Anand has put his openion in his paper and it is his own imagination. He didnt give any evidences for this linkage. Is there any leaders of ISS in NDF? no. I am seeing for the first time those kind of arguments. Also looting and robbery?? Keralites have never heard of these arguments against NDF!! Please don't put imaginary information into this topic. It should be 100% non-biased and neutral, pls. NDF is not against hindus! NDF is working for all nationalities of Indians. Ganeshco 04:49, 23 January 2007 (UTC)

The NDF can lie all they want. The reports implicated them in the massacre of Hindus. If you look at al-Qaeda you will note that al-Qaeda is not used to source itself, neither should NDF.Bakaman 04:50, 23 January 2007 (UTC)

Hello,BAKA, your are just putting the old version again back!! Please respect the other editors in the topic. They are also trying to contribute to WIKI. If this continues, I may have to notify the administrators. Pls don’t compare the international terrorist organization with NDF, which is a organization work for democratic empowerment of Indian citizen. Sundaram7 06:34, 23 January 2007 (UTC)

Look it was started by madani. The only newsworthy news about NDF is their massacres of Hindus. You know Hindus are Indian citizens too.Bakaman 21:25, 23 January 2007 (UTC)

Give some credible evidences , not your blind statements like the above. Dont put the edited articles back and put your ugly old version. As you can see in the media, NDF is not a illegal organisation. It is being working in Kerala for 16+ years. If it is a organisation agaist the people and democracy, govt might have banned it. But the reality is that we can see it gaining more popularity among keralite.

NDF is not connected to Madani. NDF doesn't refer to his thoughts in any of their activities. NDF, as the name reflects, stands for the total empowerment of nation. It is quite foolish to argue that by killing a group of people we can achive something in the nation. It is a fascist thought and NDF is 100% against the thoughts. Ganeshco 05:51, 24 January 2007 (UTC)

Please dont put back the old versions again. Please dont remove the hard work of other editors. Sundaram7 09:48, 28 January 2007 (UTC)

ISS

Note that Vinod Kumar's article doesn't mention the causes behind the banning of ISS. --Soman 14:48, 9 February 2007 (UTC)

Dispute On this Article

Editors of this article: please don't do unprofessional disputes flipping the pages with each other. Please follow wikipedia's policies to change the pages. If you have arguments and counter arguments, please discuss it first and then modify. Please dont put immotional statements and arguments in the text. Please feel positive and try to resolve this dispute.-- Sundaram7 06:54, 11 February 2007 (UTC)

I have semiprotected the article. I have never heard of the group, but if WP is going to call it "militant Islamist", we'd need a good reference for that, especially since the epitet seems to be disputed. The reference quoted in support of "The organization is one of the organizations that took over the political vacuum when the Islamic Sevak Sangh (ISS) of Abdul Nasser Madani was banned in 1993" is mentioning NDF in a single sentence, saying "newly-formed groups like the National Democratic Front (NDF) have emerged as stronger alternatives to ISS and SIMI and have allegedly masterminded communal violence in recent years". That is, the source is not itself alleging anything, but it can be quoted as a reference that there are allegations to the effect that the group is involved in communal violence. Keep everything closely sourced and stop the edit-warring. dab (𒁳) 12:48, 18 February 2007 (UTC)

Actually I think the article is quite balanced right now.Bakaman 17:26, 18 February 2007 (UTC)

glad to hear it, maybe you can ask Freedom skies to cut the revert-warring. They may well be a "militant Islamist" group, I wouldn't know, but before we're not going to state that as a fact if it is disputed. As it is, we don't even have a source that calls them "militant Islamist". One article calls them as "shadowy outfit", and I don't doubt they are. But usually, you can tell a group is "militant Islamist" because they tell you they are, waving rifles and shouting a lot. A group that does not self-identify as militant Islamist shouldn't be so called lightly, certainly not on WP. dab (𒁳) 11:25, 19 February 2007 (UTC)

Other than the unsourced allegations of "militant Islamism", the article defines the general mainstream view on NDF, they shot into prominence after massacring a bunch of Hindus on a beach in 2002, and are known for using death squads for killing their opponents. The BJP alleged they have links to the ISI.Bakaman 16:44, 19 February 2007 (UTC)

as far as I can see, a connection between the NDF and this "massacre" is also a matter of "allegation". We can certainly say the BJP thinks they are involved, and they may be involved for all I know, but we won't be able to just take BJP's word for it, we'd need a court decision at the very least. dab (𒁳) 08:58, 21 February 2007 (UTC)

Dab you are incorrect, NDF activists were directly implicated in the massacre. The BJP alleged NDF was connected to the ISI. See "it was the NDF and IUML, which planned and implemented the massacre in Marad", and a cursory look at the CBI sheet.Bakaman 04:47, 22 February 2007 (UTC)

Article must be rewritten

I am a new user of wiki. I am a person from kerala now based in bangalore. As per my knowladge and as per the public opinion NDF is an organization that is patriotic and that strives for the devolopment of our coutry. Whatever allegations put here are just the other side of the media and the fascist criminals just because a majority of people behind the organization are muslims. Please try to be neutral and please save wiki from the rise of islamophobia.

This article should be corrected.

I suggest that http://www.ndfindia.com/ which is their official site should be put in External links. And that is a must!!

Please go through the site and verify the facts, especially in the news section. The kind of activities the organization is involved shows their true nature. Those facts can be verified.

It is shame full that editors in wiki are also trapped by the fascists criminals. -- wrongNot Feb20 2007