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This article was nominated for deletion on 8 July 2010. The result of the discussion was keep.

Albania Start‑class Low‑importance

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Illyria Start‑class Mid‑importance

This article is within the scope of WikiProject Illyria, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Illyria and Illyrians on Misplaced Pages. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.IllyriaWikipedia:WikiProject IllyriaTemplate:WikiProject IllyriaIllyria Start This article has been rated as Start-class on Misplaced Pages's content assessment scale. Mid This article has been rated as Mid-importance on the project's importance scale.

Sulmues' edits

About this: first, the citation for the google snippet from Australian Slavonic and East European studies is still not complete – it's a journal article, so the crucial info is the author and title of the individual article. Also, what is "scholars seem to propose" supposed to mean? "I found something on Google books, but I'm too lazy to look it up properly, so I can't say for certain what those scholars are actually proposing"? That's such a ridiculous confession of editorial laziness. Either we've read the sources, then we know what their authors are saying, or we don't. Fut.Perf. ☼ 15:01, 9 July 2010 (UTC)

You asked for a citation and I gave you the citation on that edit. A primitive Illyro-Thracian God of the Sky and Thunder invoked especially in songs praying for the rain. That's what a citation is, you cite. --_Sulmues 19:10, 9 July 2010 (UTC)

No, a full citation is the full set of necessary bibliographic information needed for identifying a source, as you would have known had you followed the link. What you mean is a quote. Fut.Perf. ☼ 19:33, 9 July 2010 (UTC)

Entered Journal ref template, rather than book. Not easy to identify title though. --_Sulmues 19:52, 9 July 2010 (UTC)

There's a ToC here: . If the volume and page numbers are right, the article would seem to be Brian Cooper: "The classic ‘mother' phrase in Russian: its form and origin" (17/1-2: 3-26). Don't ask me how that statement fits in with that topic though. Fut.Perf. ☼ 20:30, 9 July 2010 (UTC)

It's either Cooper or Sawczak, Europe as Object of Aversion and Desire: Cultural Antimonies in Gogol's ‘Taras Bulba' (It may be Volume 18, not 17). I never got to read Taras Bulba though, so I really am at a stopping point on this. --_Sulmues 20:47, 9 July 2010 (UTC)

87.*'s edits

Just a question to IP 87.*: did you check the Gamkrelidze/Ivanov book in the original, about those "prayers for rain"? What original ethnographic studies do G./I. base this on? (They must have some ultimate source, because they are not themselves experts on Albanian folklore). Fut.Perf. ☼ 15:07, 9 July 2010 (UTC)

they cite (vittore) pisani who had an extensive knowledge of the ancient languages of the area from what i know (but i dont know about albanian...)87.202.37.216 (talk) 15:16, 9 July 2010 (UTC)

actually i made a mistake..gamkrelidze-ivanov believe *perk- to come from *per with a suffix *-k which would mean that albanian lacks the suffix and uses *per + *unos (Perun) + *dyeus to form perendi if thats correct..you might have two gods here one striking (*per) and one being associated with the oak (*perk-) Perkunas because its the tree struck by lightning...the derivations or at least the correspondences between the perun and the perkunas groups are really uncertain it seems and the origins of perendi even more uncertain (three basic etymologies proposed by Orel, including the connection to Perun...) perhaps the "illyro-thracian" connection should be removed until theres a good source documenting it87.202.37.216 (talk) 15:27, 9 July 2010 (UTC)

Thanks. Pisani would make sense, he wrote some works on Albanian. Could you give the full ref, in case we need to look further into it? Fut.Perf. ☼ 15:45, 9 July 2010 (UTC)

pisani - l'albanais et les autres langues indo-europeennes in saggi di linguistica storica, scritti scelti. turin: rosenberg & sellier. 1959 —Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.202.37.216 (talk) 15:48, 9 July 2010 (UTC)

Good to know, thanks. I could look that up at our library if the need arises. Fut.Perf. ☼ 15:55, 9 July 2010 (UTC)

Slavic loan

@Miki Filigranski: apart from the fact that almost every single scholar, including all of those specializing in Albanian mythology and language history, says that Perëndi is of pre-Slavic origin. A change Perun->Perëndi is very obviously against the phonetics of Albanian. Ktrimi991 (talk) 11:59, 23 July 2022 (UTC)

@Ktrimi991: Ok, but why then this article mentions the custom of Peporona related to Perun? What is the evidence that Perëndi have been worshiped by the Illyrians in antiquity?--Miki Filigranski (talk) 12:05, 23 July 2022 (UTC)

Perun/Peporona are part of the same IE tradition as Perëndi. That Perëndi was an Illyrian god is speculation because there is no evidence whatsoever for that. Because the prevalent view in scholarship is that the Albanians stem from the Illyrians, some scholars assume that Perëndi was an Illyrian god. Unfortunately we do not know the main gods of the Illyrians - in that case we could compare them with the main god names of Albanian mythology: Zojz, Perëndi, *En etc. Ktrimi991 (talk) 12:29, 23 July 2022 (UTC)

The content of this article is based on several reliable sources. The Albanian theonym is composed of the dí, día root, and constitutes the missing semantic link between PIE Dyeus and PIE Perkwunos (The Proto-Indo-European theonymic roots *dei- ("to shine") and *perkwu-s ("sky/rain/oak associations") may be grouped together under the classifications of "celestial luminosity".York 1993, pp. 230–240, 248 harvnb error: no target: CITEREFYork1993 (help)) The Illyrian connection is mentioned in this article as different scholars support that hypothesis. According to many scholars, despite your pov additions to the article the custom of Dodola/Perperuna is most likely Paleo-Balkan/Thracian, not Slavic. Btw, what is the evidence that Perun was Slavic and not borrowing from Baltic, or even Paleo-Balkan (cf. the attested Thracian Perkos/Perkon)? – Βατο (talk) 12:47, 23 July 2022 (UTC)

@Ktrimi991, doesn't matter, not related to Perëndi. As presumed there's lack of proper evidence so it's possible since passed over 1500 years from the migration of the Slavs, although names, deities and customs are not always directly connected. That's the problem with folklorists&mythologists, and linguists etc., we are dealing with more-or-less well argued narratives and theories based on modern data. @Βατο, ok about the semantics, other part of the comment is shockingly wrong about everything, Paleo-Balkan/Thracian origin theory is fringe, not argued by scientists of the field and ignored by all other literature, as for non-Slavic origin of Perun, no comment... --Miki Filigranski (talk) 14:16, 23 July 2022 (UTC)

Is Perun part of non-Balkan Slavic traditions? Ktrimi991 (talk) 13:00, 23 July 2022 (UTC)

Yes.--Miki Filigranski (talk) 14:16, 23 July 2022 (UTC)

@Ktrimi the Slavic theonym appears in written records around the High Middle Ages, we don't know the original area from which it spread. The Thracian name is the oldest one attested in the region. The origins of those theonyms are unclear, and many scholars consider them to be of a common PIE origin. There is no evidence to state that the Albanian theonym is a borrowing form Slavic, and the presence of the dí, día root makes it undoubtedly an original Albanian theonym. As for the rainmaking ritual, it is a typical Balkan custom that is not found in other areas. – Βατο (talk) 14:40, 23 July 2022 (UTC)

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