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L. Ron Hubbard has been listed as one of the good articles under the good article criteria. If you can improve it further, please do so. If it no longer meets these criteria, you can reassess it. Review: No date specified. To provide a date use: {{GA|insert date in any format here}}. (Reviewed version).

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The subject of this article is controversial and content may be in dispute. When updating the article, be bold, but not reckless. Feel free to try to improve the article, but don't take it personally if your changes are reversed; instead, come here to the talk page to discuss them. Content must be written from a neutral point of view. Include citations when adding content and consider tagging or removing unsourced information.

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DATES

I've never done this before so forgive me if I screw up, but looking at the Early Life section the dates are clearly messed up, he was born in 1911 but enlisted in the Navy in 1904, left in 1908 and re-enlisted in 1917 (at the ripe age of 6?)... Someone who is more experienced should take a look at that. Also seems contradictory with information in the section on his military career, which reports he entered the Navy in the 40's as a LTJG.--JaymzRR 04:07, 18 February 2007 (UTC)

No, that's Hubbard's father you're thinking of (he was the one who enlisted in 1904). Perhaps this needs to be made clearer. -- ChrisO 08:45, 15 February 2007 (UTC)

Oh I see thanks for the clarification, it was a long sentence and I got lost! And here I was so excited I had finally seen a real error! Everyone ignores my last one =P--JaymzRR 04:07, 18 February 2007 (UTC)

GAC

I reviewed this article on the following 7 criteria:

1. Well-written: Pass
2. Factually accurate: Pass
3. Broad: Pass
4. Neutrally written: Pass
5. Stable: Neutral
6. Well-referenced: Pass
7. Images: Pass

Congratulations, it passes. I gave Stable a neutral because it is a vandal target, but not a very big one, as it is currently being hit at 1 every 1 to 2 days. I was pleasantly surprised at the neutral handling of such a controversial man, and I would suggest that this article be sent to Peer Review in hopes of one day becoming a Featured Article. --PresN 20:28, 8 November 2006 (UTC)

This reviewer is real lax in his criteria. LuciferMorgan 21:56, 8 November 2006 (UTC)

I'm not too sure on the well written criteria. It certainly isn't NPOV though. There aren't many references. I'm gonna be bold and change the raiting. --Signed by: Chazz - (responses). @ 16:41, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

Since you haven't given any specific examples of a lack of NPOV either here or your section below, I'm going to be bold and change it back to that given by the reviewer until you can provide such examples. --163.1.165.116 18:37, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

NPOV

As much as I disagree with Scientology this article isn't NPOV. A good NPOV article should be able to be read by a reader without being able to tell the personal believes of the author(s) of the article. Upon reading this article, it appears obvious that it's collective authors, of content/editing that has been included, is anti-scientology. I haven't read the talk pages so I don't know who has written it. I'm not involved in this topic at all - I was just reading it. However, I read my talk pages periodically. --Signed by: Chazz - (responses). @ 16:39, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

Will mark article as NPOV. --Signed by: Chazz - (responses). @ 16:49, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

Anything specific? --Tilman 17:54, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

I started from the bottom. The first example is the section "Hubbard in popular culture" is almost completely unsourced though clearly written to ridicule Hubbard as a person, with typical propaganda wordings like "it is thought" or the - again unsourced - under-the-belt sidenote that Hubbard was negatively talked about more after his death than before. If he would have come up in that many areas ("novels, motion pictures, television cartoons, video games and other cultural forms") in the way described, it should be easy to reference it. Also the meaning of "he was also the most prolific posthumous author that year" is not clear (maybe because some of his books were republished that year?). I found a Wiki symbol for such POS and added it accordingly. Does anyone have Hubbard's Rocky Mountain News interview of 20 Feb 1983? All I can find on the net are digested versions from known critics. COFS 04:04, 20 February 2007 (UTC)

Tilman. This refers to the revision you just did contrary to WP:POV, WP:CIV and is rude. If you do not feel like sticking to Misplaced Pages policy right now, go "take a walk" (which is another Misplaced Pages policy or guideline, I believe). Or go back to bed. In good faith I assume that you did not read the talk page before doing that. COFS 05:08, 20 February 2007 (UTC)

What's your problem? I added the source. --Tilman 05:38, 20 February 2007 (UTC)

You want to convince me that you did not see that you rv'ed a bunch of changes "by adding a source"?! Come! On! Sorry however for rvv'ing it, I just put it back. COFS 05:57, 20 February 2007 (UTC)

Guiness cite

The Guiness citation at thebookstandard.com is for the previous Most Translated record from last year. It doesn't cover the new "Most Published" claim. (I believe Guinness probably did it, but anything in that first paragraph needs a cite or it'll be hit by a crossfire of edits.) AndroidCat 18:10, 18 November 2006 (UTC)

The Guiness cite should be removed as it is generally misleading. It might depend on what you consider "most translated" but it seems to be obvious that Authors like Shakespeare, Christie have been translated into more languages. One source is for this can be found at the Unesco website . Please note that the number of languages is not identical given with the index, as languages are counted double.212.182.93.178 23:12, 11 February 2007 (UTC)

It is well cited and he got the awards. What is your point? If Shakespeare had been the most-translated then the record would have gone to Shakespeare, not Hubbard. It went to Hubbard. --Justanother 23:17, 11 February 2007 (UTC)

Well the cite might be useful to add but not in the introduction. What is totally lacking here (and also on the Guiness webpage) is actually how "Most translated author" is defined. I found an interesting discussion about this topic here . In my opinion the poster was totally right when he refered that most translated could mean:

"...most translated author

* in terms of number of total languages for the author

* in terms of number of works that have been translated

* in terms of number of words that have been translated

* in terms of number of translated works which have been sold

and a combination of these because an author might have written 100 books of which 50 of them might have been translated, of which 45 were only translated into 1-2 languages, and 5 recent best sellers translated into 20 languages each. Yet, if the majority of these books are childrens' books containing an average of 200-1000 words, then the volume of translation is low, but the potential volume of sales is high.(...)"

Hence, the problematic issue is that a reader cannot easily understand this claim, opposed e.g. if Ron Hubbard would be the fastest 100m sprinter in the world even without knowing the exact definition of the underlying issue this would be acceptable as the average reader could implicit the matter. If would it stays like this it is definitely smattering in my point of view. Maybe someone has access to a current issue of the Guiness Book of Records? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 83.19.97.146 (talk) 11:35, 12 February 2007 (UTC).

A review of the list of the translated languages shows that a number of them are, at best, dialects. (And then there's the whole question of what are basically self-published works.) My impression is that Guinness fell down badly on their fact checking in this case. However, it remains that Guinness lists Hubbard as the current record holder (unclear as "most translated author" is), and there are reliable sources that they did. So, for this article, what do you suggest? Keeping the Guinness listing, removing it, adding an awkward sentence saying that it's unclear what "most translated" means (with cites to reliable sources saying so), other sources that disagree who is "more translated"? AndroidCat 15:26, 12 February 2007 (UTC)

I agree with AndroidCat here. Guinness is generally considered a reliable source, even if the actual nature of "most translated" is rather vague and actually quite meaningless. (Was Hubbard the world's most translated author when he died in 1986? No? Then the record is really not reflecting on Hubbard, but on efforts made on his behalf in the twenty years since he died.) -- Antaeus Feldspar 16:01, 12 February 2007 (UTC)

Death isn't really a factor. Shakespeare hasn't published much recently either, but is still counted high in total works translated. (And some of his works are now available in the original Klingon.) :) AndroidCat 17:20, 12 February 2007 (UTC)

My suggestion would be to remove it from the introduction. I'd consider a cite in the introduction should state something that is clear and easily understandable. When I read this article I just thought: "He should be the most translated author? I can't believe that". Then i did some research and it became obvious that Guinness must have interpreted this record category different than any other would do. Even thought considering that Guiness might be a reliable source on records, this seems to be poorly researched. Even in the new version saying "(...) having published 1,084 fiction and non-fiction works that have been translated into 71 languages (...)" it is unclear for what he got this award. For the number of languguages, the number of works or both? I would move it to "Controversial episodes", but in order to do so some reliable citations like data from the Unesco would have to be added to make this understandable. Otherwise I think this is a well-written (and neutral as it could be) article.83.19.97.146 12:19, 13 February 2007 (UTC)

Hi, sorry if you do not like that he got those awards but he did. Please see Misplaced Pages:Lead section

"The lead should be capable of standing alone as a concise overview of the article, establishing context, explaining why the subject is interesting or notable, . . ."

One of Hubbard's primary identities is "writer". The awards speak directly to what makes him "interesting or notable" as a writer. We do not go through the articles "second-guessing" every well-cited claim. That is worse than WP:NOR. That is simple and blatant bias. Guinness has world-wide repute on the subject of records. They gave him the awards. Write them a letter if you think they screwed up and maybe they will give them to someone else and then you can come back here and remove them. --Justanother 16:52, 13 February 2007 (UTC)

I think you got me totally wrong on this topic. For me it is not a matter if I like the fact that he got the award or not. I come from an academic background where you have to prove your sources and even more important where you have to cite them reasonably within your own work. This also means that you don't use sources where you actually know or should know (of course regarding to which extent you are working on a topic) that they are either wrong or indeed questionable. This is an example: The organization might be credible in general but a 2 minute research on the internet reveals the both the actual award and the definition base seems to be very doubtful. Just to put it in other words, do you think it is ok to cite on Misplaced Pages (an award), where you know at least that the basis (of this award) is thin if not wrong? However, to cut a long story short I actually agree with the current lead stating "...declared (...)". I think for most readers it should be clear that this record might be contentious. --] 23:01, 13 February 2007 (UTC)

I do sincerely apologize if I miscast your remarks. (As an aside, it would help if you used a username as, personally, I make little distinction between anons.) Since you started off with "The Guiness cite should be removed as it is generally misleading", I figured you to be a critic (POV) as, IMO, a non-critic (NPOV) would have simply asked that it be clarified or perhaps moved elsewhere. Clearly, the UN database is of number of different translated works while the award was given, apparently, for most languages, so the UN database entry is irrelevant though worth mentioning absent more info on the nature of the award. I added a better link that explains that is for most languages. It is an important award and speaks to his notability so it belongs in the lead section. --Justanother 14:02, 14 February 2007 (UTC)

Parody and ridicule

The section "Parody" contains what is likely a lot of OR. If it does not say Hubbard by name then it is not a reference that can stand without a reliable source saying it is a reference to Hubbard. A parody or ridicule that names Hubbard by name is self-sourcing but its existence should still be sourced. I do not know what Antaeus has sourced on this last one but my guess is it is simply the source of what he considers a parody; not a source that says it is a parody of Hubbard. Antaeus would you please clarify what you have sourced. I do, of course, find it interesting that so many unsourced entries serving to ridicule Hubbard exist in the article. Do you think if I go over to the Catholic Pope article I will see a section entitled parody and reference to Battle Pope and every song that says "Fuck the pope?" Hmm, just checked and didn't see that parody section in the Pope article. Maybe we should add it. Since I am already being crude let me tell you what I really think. If some "artist" writes a song and it contains the lyric "L. Rob Hookah buttfucks pigs", why, someone would sure like to see that in the L. Ron Hubbard article. Simply because they figure it MUST be reference to LRH, and every scandalous reference to Hubbard belongs on wikipedia, doesn't it? So now we have managed to put a link between Hubbard and pig-fucking in what is supposed to be an encyclopedic article on Hubbard. Great work! For someone, I guess. Someone with an agenda using wikipedia as a PR tool. And no one is "responsible". The person that wrote the song never said it was about Hubbard; no reliable source says it was about Hubbard; and of course the person that put it there is simply "contributing to wikipedia". How about we take a stand here. Let's pull the back-door unsourced slurs. Please. I would appreciate it if someone would stand up and start; if I do it is more "justanother POV". Thanks. --Justanother 03:19, 20 November 2006 (UTC)

Wake me up if you want to discuss something specific that is actually in the article, unlike wgertian-style pig relationships. AndroidCat 04:46, 20 November 2006 (UTC)

Good morning; let's start with this one:

"In Neal Stephenson's book Snow Crash, there is a character named L. Bob Rife who has an ocean-going fleet centered on a surplus aircraft carrier, and populated by mind-controlled followers." Hubbard = Rife = mind-control.

Or this one:

"In the David Eddings series of Tamuli books, a silly theatrical character who performs and tells tall tales in front of locals to gain support for a strange cult is named Elron (L. Ron)." Hubbard = Elron = silly = liar = strange.

--Justanother 04:53, 20 November 2006 (UTC)

I don't think we should be as strict as justanother suggests in vetting parodies--the "Fallout" video game that features "Hubologists" is clearly a parody of Scientology, even though it doesn't say the word "Scientology" or "Hubbard"--I'd still call that self-verifying. But I think there should be some threshold of notability--every LRH joke on YouTube doesn't need to be listed.

More importantly, Justanother's larger question is a good one: why have this "parody" section at all? I'd say it's enough to mention that Hubbard has frequently been a figure of fun in popular culture, give a couple of examples, and put the rest of the info, to the extent it qualifies, in the dedicated article on cultural references to Scientology. That stuff is describing cultural references, not the life and works of Hubbard. Opinions? BTfromLA 06:29, 20 November 2006 (UTC)

I agree with BT on both counts: 1) the "parody" section, as just about any "list" section seems to do, has suffered from list creep; 2) Justanother is being unreasonably unreasonably strict in vetting parodies. I do not even understand what his accusation "I do not know what Antaeus has sourced on this last one but my guess is it is simply the source of what he considers a parody; not a source that says it is a parody of Hubbard" is supposed to mean. What is he alleging, and does his allegation fall within the boundaries of WP:AGF? Justanother clearly insisted on a citation which said "The character of L. Bob Rife is based on L. Ron Hubbard" and that's what he received; does he have any reason other than not actually wanting any such citation to exist or to be found for asserting that the citation he received must be other than what he requested? -- Antaeus Feldspar 15:53, 20 November 2006 (UTC)

Antaeus, I apologize for misunderstanding what you had referenced. I cannot access that reference (here) without an account. Perhaps you have an access through a university. I did not know what you had referenced and I queried it. I apologize for guessing and guessing wrongly. If you would like to discuss this personal aspect further please feel free to address it on my talk page. If you have access to the full article and it sources that that was a reference to Hubbard then good find! and your word is certainly good enough for me.

As regard BT's proposal. My feeling is that the parody adds nothing of substance to the article, nothing of value about Hubbard, other than that Hubbard is/was parodied. Many, if not most, aspects of American culture are parodied. President Bush is parodied practically every week on Saturday Night Live yet I doubt that Bush's bio has a parody section (of course, it doesn't). For my money, a very prominent mention that he is parodied, even one placed in the intro area, then link to the already existing List of Scientology references in popular culture would do just fine and, as a side benefit, would avoid duplication of material. Ps; there is a great old "parodyish" ref in one of Heinlein's novels (Lazarus Long? Cat that walked through walls? Just found one mention that says it is in "Friday") about "queue battles" and how the Hubbardites (or something) were to be feared for their great organization during battle. --Justanother 19:27, 20 November 2006 (UTC)

I've taken the opinions of the three of us for a consensus, and changed the parody section accordingly. BTfromLA 04:55, 21 November 2006 (UTC)

I don't agree with moving all of them. For example, The Rocket to the Morgue one is an interesting look at Hubbard in the 1941-42 period (even if not factual), and it has nothing to with Scientology. AndroidCat 05:42, 21 November 2006 (UTC)

To clarify -- they haven't been moved to the other article, only to here. I agreed that there was some list creep, but never meant to suggest that destroying the list was an adequate response. -- Antaeus Feldspar 15:12, 21 November 2006 (UTC)

P.S. As well, the 1994 Ig Nobel Prize in Literature to Hubbard should be here. Like all lists, it will have to be pruned and kept pruned, but I don't think it can be cut to nothing. For other examples, the Pope was the wrong place to look. Obviously Justanother should have started with the King :) AndroidCat 11:59, 21 November 2006 (UTC)

Yeah, comparing a single person (Hubbard) with a title that has been occupied by many different people over a couple of thousand years (the Pope) does not exactly make for an airtight argument... -- Antaeus Feldspar 15:03, 21 November 2006 (UTC)

Sorry if I overreacted by pulling the whole list out. I'll offer no objection if you folks want to restore a few well chosen examples, but the existing list seemed to me to have swollen in such a way as to wander pretty far from an encyclopedic treatment of Hubbard's life and works. BTfromLA 17:14, 21 November 2006 (UTC)

Certainly, the Ig Nobel award is a good one for the main article. LRH has won a ton of other awards, too. They have a place here also. What exactly is the purpose of the Rocket to the Morgue reference if it is possibly "not factual"? This is a biographical article. Are we making the point that he used pen names? That point is already made with factual data. He actually did get the Ig Noble so fine, include it. Re: the Pope, he is the subject of parody; parody not mentioned. Re: Bush (an individual), he is the subject of parody; parody not mentioned. I can find any number more. --Justanother 02:29, 22 November 2006 (UTC)

The Rocket to the Morgue reference is interesting because of the character sketchs of the writers in California in 1941. Robert Heinlein is featured as well, including a number of actual details of his home. Since this was published in 1942, long before any polarization over Dianetics and Scientology, the book is something of a preserved time capsule of the F&SF writers and publishing business of that time (as seen by Anthony Boucher and interpreted for his fictional murder mystery, of course). This sort of Tuckerization (as it was later termed) is quite common, and is usually done as a fun in-joke. (Heh, I see Steve Stirling has gotten kinder in his Tuckerizations—he killed off most of the rest of the Bunch of Seven in his Drakka books!) AndroidCat 03:33, 22 November 2006 (UTC)

Sounds cool, I'll have to read it! Thanks --Justanother 03:46, 22 November 2006 (UTC)

Contents of L Ron Hubbard "parody" section--some of which should go back in a renamed section

Hubbard was awarded the 1994 Ig Nobel Prize in Literature for "his crackling Good Book, Dianetics, which is highly profitable to mankind — or to a portion thereof". The presenter observed he was also the most prolific posthumous author that year.

In 2001,an independent film called The Profit was produced, which featured a character called L. Conrad Powers, founder of the Church of Spiritual Science, who used a device called a Mind Meter. Although the producers stressed that any resemblance to Scientology was entirely coincidental, the Church of Scientology obtained an injunction blocking its release. However, some of those who saw the film, even critics of Scientology, derided it as over the top, and the organisation behind the film's production, Human Rights Cinema, was accused of being an anti-cult group.

On the South Park episode "Trapped in the Closet", it was claimed that Stan Marsh is L. Ron Hubbard reincarnated and that Hubbard was a "prophet". As a reference to Scientology's litigious tendencies, all the credits at the end of this episode were changed to read "John/Jane Smith". The episode also has an animated version of the Xenu story; in case a viewer might mistakenly think South Park was exaggerating for satiric effect, this sequence is accompanied by a caption reading "This is what Scientologists actually believe". Isaac Hayes, who voiced "Chef" on the show and is himself a Scientologist, ostensibly left the cast on account of this episode. However, it isn't clear whether this was his own decision or a decision of upper-level Scientologists; during a radio interview on The Opie and Anthony Show after the episode aired, Hayes defended South Park creators Trey Parker and Matt Stone, saying, "If you take the shit they say seriously, then I'll sell you the Brooklyn Bridge for two dollars". South Park further parodied Scientology when Isaac Hayes left South Park over the issue: in The Return of Chef - "Chef" is portrayed as being brainwashed by some "fruity little club," a group of child molesters called the "Super Adventure Club", a veiled reference to Isaac Hayes and his links to Scientology.

Anthony Boucher's murder mystery Rocket to the Morgue (1942) features cameos of members of the Mañana Literary Society of Southern California. Hubbard makes a dual appearance as D. Vance Wimpole and Rene Lafayette (one of his pen names). Jack Parsons is also there as the character "Hugo Chantrelle".

In Frank Zappa's rock-opera album Joe's Garage the main character Joe seeks advice from L. Ron Hoover of the First Church of Appliantology, who directs him to a lifestyle of having sex with appliances and robots.

In the David Eddings series of Tamuli books, a silly theatrical character who performs and tells tall tales in front of locals to gain support for a strange cult is named Elron (L. Ron).

Philip K. Dick's short story The Turning Wheel features a post-apocalyptic religion following the teachings of "the Bard, Elron Hu".

Niven and Pournelle's novel Inferno (a retelling of Dante's Inferno) has a description of a one-time science fiction writer who created his own religion "that masks as form of lay psychiatry" and is now - quite literally - in hell as a result.

There have also been numerous other jabs at L. Ron Hubbard and Scientology from other sources; for example, the final city in the computer game Fallout 2 contains the Hubologist cult which is a direct take on Scientology.

Hubbard is also a featured character in the novel The Chinatown Death Cloud Peril by Paul Malmont.

On the Millennium episode "Jose Chung's Doomsday Defense", the (fictional) writer Jose Chung interviews a member of the "Church of Selfosophy", founded by his former science fiction writer colleague, "J. Onan Goopta".

Steve Martin's movie, Bowfinger, features a cult called "Mindhead" whose posh celebrity center is said to be based on a Hollywood facility serving Scientology's star clientele.

Steven Soderbergh's 1996 comedy Schizopolis features a cult called Eventualism led by one T. Azimuth Schwitters which is seemingly inspired by Hubbard.

In Neal Stephenson's book Snow Crash, there is a character named L. Bob Rife who has an ocean-going fleet centered on a surplus aircraft carrier, and populated by mind-controlled followers.

The Snake Oil Wars by Parke Godwin satirizes Hubbard by having him serving his time in Hell as an answering machine.

The song Ænema, by the band Tool, denounces Hubbard with the line "...fuck L. Ron Hubbard and fuck all his clones."

The satirical art religion "The Church of the SubGenius" has as its prophet and Messiah figure a 1950's appliance salesman named J.R. "Bob" Dobbs, whose image of an always-smiling, pipe-smoking, Brylcreem covered head is appropriated from 1950's clip art. The Texas based group also integrates elements of Fundamentalist Christianity and televangelists into their writings and media projects.

L-Ron, a sentient robot from the DC Comics universe, and former assistant to Manga Khan, is named after Hubbard, as other robot assistants Khan of were named after science fiction writers (Hein-9, K-Dikk).

In the 1986 film, Stoogemania, which deals with a Three Stooges fan (Josh Mostel) attempting to break his addiction to the comedy threesome, said fan ends up going to a rehab clinic run by a mysterious figure named "L. Ron Howard" ('Howard' being the last name shared by Moe, Curly and Shemp). "L. Ron Howard" only appears on TV screens at the clinic - he is never seen in person.

majored

Could someone with knowledge about US academic szene check whether it is correct to claim that Ron "majored" in Civil Engineering? According to wikipedia , it means "the primary focus of a Bachelor's degree". Taking one course for one semester isn't a "primary focus". --Tilman 18:11, 14 December 2006 (UTC)

Usually, in a four-year school, you get on a "major track" right from the get-go. I do not know what LRH's major was. And I do not know how that school was structured in the 30's. From the transcript it looks like engineering. We could perhaps say he majored in engineering then. I assumed that the "took a course in" was UK for "majored in" because what would be the point otherwise of mentioning that one course out of 20 (of course I get the point of mentioning the other, nuclear physics). --Justanother 18:44, 14 December 2006 (UTC)

Here you go:

In September of 1930, Ron was admitted to George Washington University School of Engineering with a major in civil engineering.

From a source you would most likely respect (joke - I sure don't but useful for some stuff).--Justanother 18:53, 14 December 2006 (UTC)

Legal difficulties and life on the high seas

Sentence from this section: "In 1978, Hubbard was convicted of felony fraud and sentenced to four years in jail and a 35,000₣ fine by a French court. Hubbard refused to serve his jail time or pay his fine and went into hiding." There is an article in the International Herald Tribune, March 3 1980, titled "Court in France Recognizes Cult, Acquits Ex-Head", with this passage: "The court's president indicated that the three others , who were sentenced in their absentia, might be acquitted if they appealed." Although it seems Hubbard never bothered to appeal, is it significant enough to add this information? Raymond Hill 06:29, 6 January 2007 (UTC)

Biased representation

"He was attended by "Commodore's Messengers", teenaged girls dressed in white hot pants who waited on him hand and foot, bathing and dressing him and even catching the ash from his cigarettes. He had frequent screaming tantrums and instituted brutal punishments such as incarceration in the ship's filthy chain-locker for days or weeks at a time and "overboarding", in which errant crew members were blindfolded, bound and thrown overboard, dropping up to 40 ft. into the cold sea, hoping not to hit the side of the ship with its sharp barnacles on the way down. These punishments were applied to children as well as to adults ."- http://www.xenu.net/

As horrific an ordeal this is one must remember, I think, that the Mediterranean can not reasonably be considered "cold". A quick glance at xenu.net sufficiently impresses me that the site wishes to discredit Hubbard and/or Scientology. I think the reader of this article could arrive at their own conclusions without the added bombast from questionable sources.72.23.239.232 22:50, 19 January 2007 (UTC)

Have you ever swum in the Mediterranean? It's not a tropical sea by any means, and it gets pretty cold in the winter - see http://www.weatheronline.co.uk/water/Europe/WestMediterranean.htm for current temperatures (as low as 14C / 57F). But I agree, the paragraph you quoted is pretty overheated, and it's badly referenced - xenu.net shouldn't be being used as a reference for that. -- ChrisO 22:55, 19 January 2007 (UTC)

Yes I have spent a chilly winter near Marseilles; Do you think Hubbard and his gang would have sailed to warmer winter clime in the Med? 72.23.239.232 23:09, 19 January 2007 (UTC)

It doesn't actually get that warm anywhere in the Med in the winter; the best you're going to get at this time of year is about 18-19C. However, Hubbard appears to have spent at least one winter (1966/67) in Morocco, and his fleet visited the Canary Islands as well - both are reasonably warm in the winter. -- ChrisO 23:16, 19 January 2007 (UTC)

Thankyou for the prompt and knowledgeable response.72.23.239.232 23:48, 19 January 2007 (UTC)

ironic and gratuitous accusations

Antaeus Feldspar used the edit summary to make this accusation against me.

(Justanother, please do not use edit summaries to make gratuitous accusations against your fellow editors. It violates WP:CIVIL.)

(am I the only one that catches the irony there?) Anyway I imagine he thinks I accused ChrisO of something when I removed a POV modifier from what clearly appears to be OR and I posted this edit summary.

(rem POV in this bit of OR. BTW, you should at least give us a quote from the mag in the ref field.)

When I saw ChrisO adding an unsourced conclusion with this edit comment

(Noted changing stories about LRH's life)

He referenced an earlier Church bio. I know that source did not come up with that conclusion. Ergo, I take that to be OR. There is no "accusation" there. It is just logic and perception. Heck, I did not even pull the OR, just asked for a quote to show us what he was basing his opinion on. If ChrisO was insulted I apologize but I do not know why the 3rd party is so quick to jump in the middle.--Justanother 19:10, 27 January 2007 (UTC)

The biography in question is in a 1956 issue of the London Scientology magazine "Certainty", incorporating a biographical interview with L. Ron Hubbard (who was living in London at the time). It's radically different from current Church biographies and there's at least one clear lie in it, where Hubbard is quoted as speaking of his time captaining the British corvette Mist. There was no British corvette named Mist - in fact, we had no commissioned ship of any kind called Mist in WW2 - and Hubbard never commanded a Royal Navy vessel. The Mist was an ex-trawler pressed into service as the USS YP-422, a harbour protection vessel which Hubbard did command. I guess that Hubbard felt that captaining an armed trawler in Boston harbour was less glamorous than fighting in the Battle of the Atlantic.

I think we do need to say something more in the article about how the official account has changed over the years and how Hubbard himself made claims that were exaggerated, false (as in the example I just cited) or contradictory. -- ChrisO 20:07, 27 January 2007 (UTC)

Interesting. So you found an old mag that made an error about one of the ships that he actually DID command. Hubbard commanded the Mist as USS YP-422 but it was incorrectly reported that he commanded a British corvette. And, all due respect, you see that as some sort of big lie rather than a simple error on the part of the writer of the piece. OK. Well. OK. Doesn't seem exactly notable to me but OK. --Justanother 21:22, 27 January 2007 (UTC)

No, the article incorporates an interview with Hubbard in which he says verbatim that he commanded a British corvette and goes on to name the ship as the Mist. It's in the context of a complaint about his treatment by the Home Office (at the time they were trying to exclude Hubbard as an undesirable - according to the Home Office's files, they thought he was a crank and wanted to get rid of him). I quote: "The one thing I don't understand is being classified by the Home Office as an 'alien'. When you've captained a British corvette ... I can't seem to get it through my head that when I come home, I am an alien." The article goes on to say: "e was ordered at once to the command of the former British corvette, the Mist, and saw service for the remainder of that year, serving with British and American anti-sumarine war vessels in the North Atlantic. He rose to command a squadron." Every assertion in those two sentences is false, as US Navy and Royal Navy records show, but it was explicitly issued under Hubbard's authority and taken from an interview with him. The "writer of the piece" was, in effect, Hubbard himself.

What's more, it's not the only time Hubbard claimed to have served on corvettes in the North Atlantic. For instance: "I thought I was going to come back to Australia at the end of 42. They shipped me home and within a week gave me corvettes, North Atlantic. And I went on fighting submarines in the North Atlantic and doing other things and so on. And I finally got a set of orders for the ship. By that time I had the squadron." (Hubbard, "Welcome Address", lecture of 7 November 1959) "I reported to Boston in the very early part of the war to take command of a corvette." (Hubbard, "Evolution and Use of Self Analysis", lecture of 29 March 1954) "I was running British corvettes during the war, and I was studying ASW, and they have to do with meters too, you know?" (Hubbard, "E-Meter Talk and Demo", lecture of 7 May 1961)

Numerous official Church biographies published from the 1950s through to the 1970s include the corvette claim as well. But it simply is not true - he never went anywhere near a corvette, let alone an entire squadron of them. If you look at current Church biographies they doesn't make the claim, because it's trivially disprovable. (Check it here - .) They say instead that he commanded a "convoy escort vessel in the Atlantic" , which is still inaccurate - he actually commanded a harbour patrol boat - but at least it doesn't repeat the corvette lie. There's no doubt that it was a lie, btw - as a sailor, Hubbard would have known very well the difference between a corvette and a trawler. I'm not surprised that the Church has decided not to forward the lie, considering that it's so easily disproved. -- ChrisO 23:18, 27 January 2007 (UTC)

While that may not be strictly accurate, I do not see it as such a reach. Look at corvette. These are light, cheap craft built to mercantile standards and used for escort and coastal ASW. That is the sort of craft that Hubbard commanded. I do not think he was way out-of-line to generalize his duty in that way. Although the British bit may have been a stretch of course but who knows. This is the problem with OR and why OR is not permitted here. You have to come up with an RS for us now or make it go away. Because you are blowing even this incident out of proportion and giving undue weight in the intro. --Justanother 23:41, 27 January 2007 (UTC)

It's a gross exaggeration, not just a reach. Take a look at this - Image:USS Intensity (PG-93).jpg. It's a Flower class corvette, actually a British design - several were built for the US Navy. It's a large ocean-going warship with substantial armament (heavy machine guns, anti-aircraft guns, cannon, multiple depth charge launchers). Now take a look at this picture of the USS YP-422. It's a civilian trawler converted into a short-range harbour patrol vessel, with a small artillery piece stuck onto the superstructure and a single depth charge launcher aft. It wasn't used for escort and coastal ASW at all - the YP in YP-422 stands for "yard patrol." The two are as different as a battleship and a minesweeper. As a Navy officer, you can bet Hubbard knew this very well - the same pattern of exaggeration and outright falsehood is visible throughout many of his official biographies and his own biographical statements. I've added another example (the "blood brother of the Blackfeet" claim) to the article, and will add more as I work through it. -- ChrisO 00:22, 28 January 2007 (UTC)

My main point remains Chris. You don't need to do this as OR and that is not how we are supposed to work here. Those claims are already available in RS. So if you think that the section Controversial episodes can use more work then you should find those RS's - they are not hard to find and not write a piece yourself. That is OR. --Justanother 00:33, 28 January 2007 (UTC)

It's not original research, though there's certainly a fine dividing line to be walked here. On this particular question, the corvette issue, we have two sets of sources. On the one hand, Hubbard himself and the various official Church biographies; on the other hand, Hubbard's service record and the various ship lists and directories issued by the US Navy, the Royal Navy, Jane's Fighting Ships, etc. It's not original research to state that the two sets of sources are contradictory. It would be original research to say in the article that the contradiction shows that Hubbard lied. See WP:OR#SYNTHESIS. There's really no need to state Hubbard's falsity explicitly - it's clear enough when the contradictions between his claims and the multiple RS is pointed out. -- ChrisO 00:58, 28 January 2007 (UTC)

Sorry, I meant to add this point earlier - I really don't like the "controversial episodes" section of the article. It's not standard practice on Misplaced Pages to shovel contentious items into a ring-fenced corner of the article. I intend to reduce this section and integrate much if not all of it into the rest of the article - it's an arbitrary grab-bag of things which people might consider reflect badly on Hubbard, and frankly it's not very well written or well sourced. -- ChrisO 01:05, 28 January 2007 (UTC)

Justanother, you really need to get a better idea of the dividing line between source-based research, which is exactly what we are supposed to do, and "original research". Citing biographies which differ greatly and noting that they differ greatly is not "original research" -- no more than it is "original research" to describe something which in no uncertain terms potentially fatal as "potentially unsafe". It is, to use your own words, "just logic and perception" and I hope you are not trying to argue that Misplaced Pages policy was ever designed to preclude the exercise of logic and perception ever benefitting the article namespace. As for me being a "3rd party" in this matter, I hope you are not under the impression that you can make other editors witnesses to your accusations of people violating Misplaced Pages policy, but deprive them of any opportunity to speak up and voice an opinion that you can be shown far more clearly to have violated WP:CIVIL (which prohibits both "Judgmental tone in edit summaries" and "Ill-considered accusations of impropriety of one kind or another") than ChrisO can be shown to have violated WP:NOR by applying "just logic and perception". Next time you are tempted to throw in a gratuituous accusation by adding a completely unnecessary phrase such as "in this bit of OR" I suggest you refrain. -- Antaeus Feldspar 02:36, 28 January 2007 (UTC)

Antaeus, in all seriousness, there is a long history on these articles of ignoring one of the most basic policies of this encyclopedia, WP:NOR. The systematic violation is so ingrained that I think many editors have accepted it as a norm and developed quite a blind spot. Please take a fresh look at the policy:

"Original research (OR) is a term used in Misplaced Pages to refer to material that has not been published by a reliable source. It includes unpublished facts, arguments, concepts, statements, or theories, or any unpublished analysis or synthesis of published material that appears to advance a position"

It is really quite clear to me that for ChrisO or anyone to do "source-based research" and then make any analysis of those materials that has not been previously published is clearly OR. Surely you can see that. Please take a look beyond your POV, beyond everything that has already been done here, beyond your opinion of Scientology or of me personally and just read and analyze that policy. --Justanother 04:06, 28 January 2007 (UTC)

Justanother, I have already given you my educated opinion as a Wikipedian, I hope you will recognize, of some experience, and I have spelled out the reasoning behind that educated opinion. No one Misplaced Pages policy was ever intended to outweigh all others, so the argument that we must prohibit the source-based research we are supposed to do the moment anyone raises the slightest hint of the spectre of "original research" is not a compelling one. I will in fact point you to WP:IAR, which is official policy per Jimbo Wales himself: "If the rules prevent you from improving or maintaining Misplaced Pages, ignore them." You jump to the conclusion that if I do not subscribe to your rigid interpretation of the one particular rule that you claim is the only relevant one in this circumstance, then I must have developed a "blind spot", I must need a "fresh look", I must have failed to "look beyond POV". I suggest to you that it is you who needs to reconsider policy and contemplate why policies are editable in the first place and why WP:IAR "is policy, and always has been". If you are having trouble understanding what the answer can possibly be, let me suggest that it was wisely foreseen that no fixed policy could be written so as to forestall all misinterpretations (accidental ... or otherwise) and no fixed policy could be written so as to guarantee "the correct thing" being done in all future cases. Therefore a meta-policy was drafted to keep people from pushing policies to the point of absurdity and placing the letter of the "law" above the spirit of the law, or above the goals that the "laws" were drafted to accomplish in the first place. (An example of such pushing policy to the point of clear absurdity would be, oh, arguing that it is original research to 'synthesize' "The Barley Formula contains honey" and "honey can cause the fatal disease of infant botulism" to get "The Barley Formula is potentially dangerous." Such an argument, as far as I'm concerned, identifies its proposer as having less interest in improving and maintaining Misplaced Pages than in manipulating it to his own ends.)

Now, if you don't care to take into account my years of Misplaced Pages experience in evaluating the argument I presented, I view that as a misguided choice on your part but one that is yours to make. However, your choice to ignore that argument entirely and instead allege that if I do not agree with your "logic and perception" that ChrisO's logic and perception is OR then that is not "my" logic and perception but instead must be my "blind spot" is unwisely arrogant and rude. -- Antaeus Feldspar 06:15, 28 January 2007 (UTC)

Of course,I disagree with your interpretation that I see as a willingness to forgo broad and direct application of the most basic principles of wikipedia in order to use these articles to tar Scientology; which tarring you no doubt feel is deserved. That is what I mean by your POV (that Scientology deserves the tarring it gets here). You are entitled to it. You are not entitled to use this encyclopeda any way you choose to forward it (the WP:IAR argument). That is hardly "improving" the encyclopedia. And if you expect me to walk on eggshells when addressing you then you had best not engage me as you did in starting this as I have no intention of walking on eggshells and you can cast my remarks as uncivil and personal attacks just as much as you care to. They are neither. They are direct. But don't worry, I won't play the same game with your remarks which are at least just as "egregious". Personal attack is personal attack and uncivil is uncivil and I think we can both recognize it when we really see it. And yes, some policies were "intended to outweigh all others"., They are called the WP:PILLARS; WP:IAR is NOT one of them and let me highlight something from them for you

Misplaced Pages does not have firm rules besides the five general principles elucidated here.

G'nite, I am going back to bed now. --Justanother 09:23, 28 January 2007 (UTC)

Justanother, if you haven't already done so, please take a look at WP:OR#SYNTHESIS, which contains an example exactly analogous to the issue we're facing on this article. This formulation is cited as a legitimate summary of contrasting sources:

Smith says that Jones committed plagiarism by copying references from another book. Jones denies this, and says it's acceptable scholarly practice to use other people's books to find new references.

In our case, we would say something like "Church biographies and L. Ron Hubbard himself claim that he served on corvettes in the North Atlantic, commanded a British corvette called the Mist and eventually rose to command the "Fourth British Corvette Squadron". However, US Navy and Royal Navy records show that the Royal Navy did not have a ship called the Mist in World War II and that Hubbard's service in the North Atlantic was confined to a brief spell in command of the USS YP-422, a harbor patrol vessel assigned to Boston Navy Yard, which had formerly been the civilian trawler Mist. There is no record of him ever having served on a corvette."

That sort of formulation - with references, of course - is exactly what's needed and required in an article where the sources conflict. It would count as original research only if we went one step further and said "Therefore it is clear that Hubbard was lying about his war service." That's what WP:OR would call "a new synthesis of published material serving to advance a position" (though as WP:OR says, ""A and B, therefore C" is acceptable only if a reliable source has published this argument in relation to the topic of the article" - if there's a RS that says Hubbard lied, that's fair enough.) This is long-standing and well-understood policy. -- ChrisO 11:42, 28 January 2007 (UTC)

Well, I guess Justanother has made his position clear that Assume good faith is another of the policies of Misplaced Pages that he's just too good to follow, despite it being incorporated in the PILLARS of Misplaced Pages he purportedly respects. It's so much easier to accuse someone else of deliberately avoiding "broad and direct application of the most basic principles of wikipedia" for POV purposes than it is to acknowledge that someone else may have a different interpretation of how the rules should be applied, or God forbid, that having been on Misplaced Pages five times longer, they might even be right in that interpretation. -- Antaeus Feldspar 03:46, 29 January 2007 (UTC)

Golly, but when the sign clearly says "Don't walk on the grass" and here you are, playing football on the grass. Well, I "guess" you could say you are not "walking". But those cleats sure do tear stuff up. Misplaced Pages is designed to reiterate published material. That is the long and the short of it. You don't like that because much of what you hold near and dear is not published in RS (and with good reason). Sorry Charlie, that is the way the ball bounces. You are trying to make wikipedia something it is not but, however, it is what it is (or at least what it was intended to be) for good reason. The hell of it is that, up to now, you have done pretty well. So congrats! --Justanother 06:38, 29 January 2007 (UTC)

Justanother, I've read the part of the article relating to Hubbard's military service, and I fail to see where is the problem. I would appreciate if you could copy here the text you believe that should not be part of the article, I would like to provide my view on this (if any), if that can be of any help. Raymond Hill 07:25, 29 January 2007 (UTC)

Hi Raymond. More than a specific passage that ChrisO is presently working on, my objection is to his and Antaeus' interpretation of the basic nature of wikipedia, which interpretation is evidenced by ChrisO's using source documents to generate his edits, rather than using published reliable sources. Again, the weird thing, to me, is that this material is already available in RS and there is not even a need to do it this way which indicates, to me, a basic misunderstanding of the underlying policy. You can see this in that ChrisO's sources are original CoS publications that support his statements and conclusions rather than RS's that echo his statements and conclusions (or better, that he echoes). As fas as specific, I imagine I will object to the Eagle Scout thing when I get around to it. But that is not my point. All his "source-based research" must be refactored to "RS-based research". --Justanother 14:13, 29 January 2007 (UTC)

The fact that Justanother is now referring to "source-based research" as something that must be eliminated shows that, far from being qualified to appoint himself the sole interpreter of WP:RS and WP:NOR, he hasn't even actually read those policies that closely. -- Antaeus Feldspar 16:12, 30 January 2007 (UTC)

Your illness* goes deep, my young Padewan, it will require much training to overcome it. Please read and understand the following quote from WP:RS re: "source-based research".

"Any interpretation of primary source material requires a secondary source."

I am still waiting for you to provide any actual reference that supports interpreting sources such as comparing source (primary) documents and making any conclusion or statement about them (as in "provide" instead of accusing me of not reading when you seem to have missed something yourself). May the Force Be With You! (*illness refers to apparent continued adherence to the concept that NOR is "OR to a point that we decide" and is not intended to further reflect on the editor's spiritual, mental, or physical health) --Justanother 16:31, 30 January 2007 (UTC)

I believe he's unhappy about something I'm proposing to add (see my comments above), rather than the existing content. -- ChrisO 08:55, 29 January 2007 (UTC)

Left. Actually no, ChrisO. I have no idea what you are working on other that what I have already seen and commented on. My objection is not new but is starting to gel nicely. I object to what I perceive as systematic disregard in these articles of the basic principle that wikipedia is built on. That basic principle is not WP:IAR. That basic principle was laid out when Jimbo replaced Nupedia, a peer-reviewed on-line encyclopedia, with Misplaced Pages. The basic principle is that, in lieu of peer-review, the new entity will only allow material that has already been published in reliable sources. The job of the editors here is to locate and bring together previously published material. I am not sure that you get that you are NOT to be doing "source-based research" and publishing your conclusions here. I think that you believe that there is some "fine line" between what is grass and what is not grass (i.e. that patch looks kinda bare - I don't think it's grass for the purpose of the rule) when all there really is a directive to stay off the grass and stay on the path. All due respect, but I don't think you see that there is a path there. The path is you find the material in RS and then you put it here. It is a simple path. There are no "fine lines" needed; the path is well-marked, "did I find it in RS or did I not". --Justanother 13:44, 29 January 2007 (UTC)

I just like to be very specific, it makes it easier for me to provide an opinion. From what I understand, ChrisO wants to use material from "a 1956 issue of the London Scientology magazine 'Certainty'." You oppose to that, on the ground that it is not RS, is that your position? (you told me ChrisO hasn't incorporated the changes you oppose in the article yet, so I can't give an opinion whether or not it's OR) Raymond Hill 18:54, 29 January 2007 (UTC)

Raymond, this all started when I removed one word that I considered to be POV from ChrisO's work. . That word was "greatly". ChrisO was apparently looking at source materials and found some discrepencies and decided that that constituted the "smoking gun" for him to claim in the intro that "the biographical details given in Church biographies have changed greatly over the years." That sort of conclusion is OR. Not only that but characterizing it as "great" was, IMO, POV. We went back and forth a bit, none of it uncivil, and it currently stands as "significant" instead of "great". Probably would have been the end of it (at least for the moment) had Antaeus not decided to "take me to task" for what he perceived as an insult to ChrisO (it wasn't). That started this thread. It went from there to my realization that Antaeus and, likely ChrisO, have what I consider a fundamental misunderstanding of the intended nature of wikipedia. So, in answer to your question; use of those Church materials is hazardous as they are not likely to say what you want them to say (i.e. LRH is full of crap, to put it bluntly) so some OR is necessary to get those materials to convey that idea. If there is any "fine line" then that is it - how do you get Church materials to say other than what they say in order to advance your position without violating WP:NOR. I think that is patently impossible and that is why you should just go to the published RS material instead of being "original". Not to mention that that is what you are supposed to do. Did I answer your question? --Justanother 19:17, 29 January 2007 (UTC)

Let me offer you a counter-example. If I said "the design of the dustjacket of Dianetics: The Modern Science of Mental Health has changed greatly", would you dispute it? It's trivially verifiable - just put a 1950 copy and a 2000 copy side by side - so it easily meets WP:V. There's no research involved, and the truth of the statement is literally indisputable. Would you demand a citation in this case? -- ChrisO 21:16, 29 January 2007 (UTC)

Chris, it is not about whether I dispute anything you say, it is about how wikipedia works. For my money, you can tar Scientology and Hubbard all you like provided that you play by the rules. You have to use the tar you find in the bucket marked "RS". You can't use the tar in your garage. I would say the tar in your mind to complete the analogy but I don't want to be accused of a personal attack (laff). --Justanother 21:43, 29 January 2007 (UTC)

Frankly, it's not the kind of thing that needs an external source. It's trivially verifiable and no more controversial than noting changes in different editions of a book (see e.g. The Origin of Species#Publication of The Origin). This sort of trivial textual comparison is basic, long-accepted practice on Misplaced Pages. I think you're pushing WP:RS way beyond reasonable bounds, and I've given you all the necessary pointers to the relevant policies. I don't propose to spend more time debating the point here. -- ChrisO 23:17, 29 January 2007 (UTC)

If you do not care to discuss this further then that is your right. I have pointed both you and Antaeus at clear written policy including direct quotes to support my position and all I have gotten in return from Antaeus is ad hominem arguments ("I know more than you cause I've been here longer so you should listen to me and anyway, you are a mean man") and "but IAR says we don't have to". And from you I guess the promise that you see some line that you won't cross as far as just how much OR you do when the policy is NOR not "OR to a point". OK. --Justanother 03:26, 30 January 2007 (UTC)

Justanother, kindly keep your strawman arguments to yourself. There is no excuse for such mendacious misrepresentations. -- Antaeus Feldspar 16:24, 30 January 2007 (UTC)

Antaeus, I don't think anyone is keeping score here so you can stop trying to attack me instead of providing actual support for your position. Any time now. And you continue your ironic accusations of the very things you yourself are equally guilty of (see below and throughout this thread) and with which you began this, for me at least, very enlightening and productive conversation (so for that I thank you). Do you want to be the kettle or the pot? How about the kettle, I think it's my turn to be the pot? If you are ahead in "mendacious misrepresentations" I vote we name you the winner. Or if you like, I'll be the winner. I don't really care. Later. --Justanother 22:08, 30 January 2007 (UTC)

Basically, Justanother seems to be saying "You have one interpretation of how far WP:NOR goes, and I have a different interpretation. But mine's the right one and yours is wrong and I won't hear anything else." Despite the fact that Wikipedians who have been here much longer than he has have been debating for far longer than he's been around the issue of just where the line is between simple logical deduction and novel synthesis, and so far have not found a universally satisfactory answer, he states that there is no such line -- as if someone had actually given him the authority to determine the issue for the whole of Misplaced Pages, to declare it as "how wikipedia works" and anything else as "fundamental misunderstanding". Having thus backed up his claims with ... nothing but his claims, he then proceeds to violate WP:AGF repeatedly, accusing other editors of only wishing to "tar" Hubbard and Scientology. -- Antaeus Feldspar 02:43, 30 January 2007 (UTC)

Left. As opposed to Antaeus, who is saying "You have one interpretation of how far WP:NOR goes, and I have a different interpretation. But mine's the right one and yours is wrong and I won't hear anything else. You silly n00b". And who continues to try to direct attention off my clear reference to written policy and onto the red herring of my supposed incivility. And I suppose that now you are going to tell me that you do not think that Scientology and Hubbard are deserving of the severest criticism? --Justanother 03:12, 30 January 2007 (UTC)

Actually, a more accurate rendition would be "You have one interpretation of how far WP:NOR goes, and I have a different interpretation. It's true that some people have in the past shared your interpretation of how far WP:NOR, but it's also true that a great many people do not share that interpretation, something which perhaps you would be aware of if you had investigated the issue more thoroughly. What is definitely not true is that the issue is a settled one, let alone settled in your favor. What is more, your interpretation of WP:NOR is a very extreme interpretation, where the question of 'what exceptions are there to a literal interpretation of the letter of the rule?' is pretty much answered 'None'. That in itself will suggest to an experienced Wikipedian that this interpretation is incorrect, since Jimbo Wales himself has repeatedly reaffirmed the importance of WP:IAR, a meta-policy which (however much you may dislike its existence) pretty much establishes that there are exceptions to every Misplaced Pages rule. As for your "supposed" incivility, the longer you repeat your accusations that the only reason anyone could interpret WP:NOR differently than you do is because they want to tar the name of L. Ron Hubbard, when even minimal investigation will show that the debate over the correct interpretation of WP:NOR is certainly not limited to articles about Hubbard/Scientology, the more it becomes clear that you are willfully violating WP:AGF. Anyone who investigates the issue can clearly see that people have been disagreeing about just where the line is between original research and source-based research for a long long time now, yet instead of accepting that those who do not accept your interpretation are merely among many who reject that interpretation because they find it inconsistent with Misplaced Pages policy as a whole -- you have to accuse them of ulterior motives, of choosing their positions on policy solely to suit their POV. Not only is this unrealistic but to poison discourse with such unfounded accusations is uncivil. It is not "supposed" incivility, it is very real incivility in which you keep persisting." -- Antaeus Feldspar 17:42, 30 January 2007 (UTC)

I have been trying to figure the issue at hand, so here is where I am now: Do you disagree that the Church of Scientology's biographies on Hubbard have differed over time? (I just want an answer on that, this is the only issue I am interested now, I am not interested in speculations on what might motivate whomever editor.) Raymond Hill 04:04, 30 January 2007 (UTC)

No --Justanother 04:09, 30 January 2007 (UTC)

So I guess that settles it? ChrisO's point is quite reasonable: it's so trivial that everybody would agree with the statement -- you included. You had a good point when you flagged the use of 'greatly' since there are some subjectivity involved. ChrisO corrected the statement. I believe it's important to have the sentence stated though, since it's an important factual information in my opinion, as it related to many other issues, an article by John Marshall in the Globe & Mail in 1980 comes to mind. Raymond Hill 04:40, 30 January 2007 (UTC)

Actually, it settles nothing. Neither you nor I nor ChrisO is the arbiter of reality as far as wikipedia is concerned. The arbiter is the simple question "does it appear in RS?" and, if so, how is it presented in RS. Not how do you nor I nor Chris perceive it or how we agree it is. That is a dark path indeed and means that articles will be a consensus of whatever the editors interested in the article at that moment in time agree on. Which means that I can never turn my back because I, in thinking that despite the personal faults of its founder or anyone else, Scientology is a very viable philosophy with a lot to offer, in thinking that I am very much in the minority here. So my "safety net" is the safety net that is designed into wikipedia which is that it is not our opinion nor our "source-based research"; it is "does it appear in RS". Surely, Raymond, you see that point, and you see how it concerns me much more deeply than "greatly" vs. "somewhat". --Justanother 14:34, 30 January 2007 (UTC)

ChrisO gave you an example: "the design of the dustjacket of Dianetics: The Modern Science of Mental Health has changed greatly." As far as I am concerned, bringing up this fact in an article is not OR, because there is no one's opinion brought into the article, it's merely stating a fact. I just went and randomly selected a wikipedia article, Sky. Here is a sentence I can find in the article: "During the day the sun can be seen in the sky, unless covered by clouds." So, according to your position, this is original research because not supported by RS. In trying to understand your position, I was wondering if it was because you disagreed that the church's version of Hubbard's life had changed over time, and you don't disagree. You disagree about stating this fact. It has been presented to you as to why it doesn't violate OR/RS. So that's pretty much my opinion on this, and bringing OR/RS — which policies I wholeheartedly agree with — again won't change it. Raymond Hill 16:45, 30 January 2007 (UTC)

That example is trivial and reducing our discussion to a triviality is not going to help anything. Yes, the sign says "Keep off the grass". Can I put my finger on the grass? My hand? A toe? Does it only refer to feet? How much of my foot constitutes "on the grass"? Please look at the same reference from WP:RS that I gave Antaeus

"Any interpretation of primary source material requires a secondary source."

The intent of this is clear and it permeates the policies here. No OR means "No OR". Quit trying to find the "fine line" of 'How much of my foot constitutes "on the grass".' The fact that the bios have changed is in RS. You do not have to violate basic wikipedia policy to present that concept. Just go find the RS, for Xenu's sake! --Justanother 16:56, 30 January 2007 (UTC)

Interestingly enough, Justanother, what you present as a quote from WP:RS is not one. "Any interpretation of primary source material requires a secondary source." appears nowhere in that policy. Does something similar appear in the policy? Yes, a similar sentence appears there. However, the sentence you 'quoted' does not. That's a rather serious scholastic error on your part. You might feel that your own sentence, which you represented to us as policy, is close enough to the similar sentence which actually appears in policy, to make the difference negligible. But that is, of course... your interpretation. -- Antaeus Feldspar 17:50, 30 January 2007 (UTC)

I went find WP:RS, here is what I believe is related to the issue here: "Misplaced Pages articles may use primary sources to make descriptive points about the topic. Any interpretive claims require secondary sources." Stating that "church's versions of Hubbard's biography have changed over time" is descriptive, you did state yourself that you agree with that description. Do you believe that the quality of the article is diminished by noting that the church's versions of Hubbard's biography have changed over time? Raymond Hill 18:03, 30 January 2007 (UTC)

Oh, sorry guys. That quote come from the other policy Mr. Feldspar claims I did not read, WP:NOR. The applicable bit from WP:RS is as Mr. Hill mentions. Please excuse my youthful enthusiam as I was just quoing that from memory and got mixed up (that is a joke, I looked at both and then got mixed up as to which I was quoting). Taking two texts and describing the difference is one thing "Text A has a picture of a flower on the cover while text B has a picture of a dog on the cover." That is what descriptive means! The idea, as mentioned in the policy, is that we could both look and totally agree as to what we are seeing. That cannot be said of "interpreting" such as taking a present day letter about Eagle scout record-keeping 80 years ago and, from that, assuming that LRH was not the youngest boy ever to make Eagle Scout in his day. I can think of any number of scenarios that would counter that bit of OR. But since that bit of OR appears in published material then it can appear here. It could not if one of us had made that conclusion. Right? --Justanother 18:18, 30 January 2007 (UTC)

Now we are talking about Eagle Scout? So I guess the other issue is fine with you now. Just went over the Eagle Scout passage in the article, and I fail to see where it is said that "LRH was not the youngest boy ever to make Eagle Scout in his day." Raymond Hill 18:46, 30 January 2007 (UTC)

Are you being, what's the word I'm looking for? Are you really confused? I think you know full well that I have always been talking about the same issue here. --Justanother 18:49, 30 January 2007 (UTC)

In other words, why are you picking nits instead of addressing my issue. This is not the article, this is the talk page, we can leave the nits alone a bit. OK, I should have said "and, from that, assuming that LRH could not have possibly known if he was the youngest boy ever to make Eagle Scout in his day." It does not change my point nor my question and that is why it is more "red herring" (you didn't say it right so I don't have to answer.) I repeat: But since that bit of OR appears in published material then it can appear here. It could not if one of us had made that conclusion. Right? --Justanother 18:55, 30 January 2007 (UTC)

Raymond, I gave you a straight and simple yes or no to your question. How about returning the favor? --Justanother 03:18, 31 January 2007 (UTC)

POV check

I think this article could use some checking by neutral editors with no stake in this matter to find biased statements and obvious original research. I removed one instance of obvious original research here but was immediately reverted. Clearly there is no proper citation, but a personal comment. Please adhere to Misplaced Pages policy which requires independent and 3rd party sources - this is called Misplaced Pages:Verifiability and also please see Misplaced Pages:Reliable sources. Please also do not use software ("vandal proof" it is called?) that is intended for vandalism to revert legitimate edits. Malakaville 14:19, 11 February 2007 (UTC)

If you had actually checked the references given, you would have found that "The Church's account of Hubbard's life has changed significantly over the years, with biographies published in Church magazines and books during the 1950s, 1960s and 1970s differing considerably from the current official biography" is self-evident. AndroidCat 14:55, 11 February 2007 (UTC)

The issue has been discussed very extensively above (see the thread at #ironic and gratuitous accusations). All of the editors concerned have agreed that the statement is accurate, and a majority have agreed that it is a statement of the obvious. Statements of the obvious ("the sky is blue", "water is wet", "ice is cold") are not OR - they are trivially demonstrable statements of properties of the objects being described. The source for the statement that you object to is the official biographies themselves. To use a comparable example, the source for the statement that the painting of the Mona Lisa depicts a woman is the painting itself - it's an inherent property of the object being described, and the proof of the statement is the object itself. As for the other "biased statements and obvious original research" that you mention, can you provide any examples? -- ChrisO 15:25, 11 February 2007 (UTC)

(after EC. Hiya Chris. There is a bit more to be said here, I think) Fellow Malakan, this was also covered in that painfully long exchange above. I decided to back away from it because it sits near to (although on the wrong side of, as I clearly see now) the only "fine line" that exists in primary "source-based research", almost the definition of OR that some yet think is something allowable in general here (what we are really supposed to be doing is secondary "source-based reporting"). The only "fine line" is describing, not interpreting, primary sources in a manner that complies with the below strict condition (from WP:NOR):

"Although most articles should rely predominantly on secondary sources, there are rare occasions when they may rely entirely on primary sources (for example, current events or legal cases). An article or section of an article that relies on a primary source should (1) only make descriptive claims, the accuracy of which is easily verifiable by any reasonable, educated person without specialist knowledge, and (2) make no analytic, synthetic, interpretive, explanatory, or evaluative claims. Contributors drawing on entirely primary sources should be careful to comply with both conditions."

The subject section of the article does contain some evaluative comments that should be removed, to wit: changed significantly and differing considerably. The best one might say is that they differ without evaluating the level of difference, such evaluation being clearly OR even if I or anyone else agree; our agreement is not what makes RS. --Justanother 15:34, 11 February 2007 (UTC)

While I think LRH was an unindicted con-man, I'd agree somewhat with the basic objection.

Noting that there are discrepancies between official accounts is trivial, and easily backed up with an "independent" source. (I found one in about ten minutes). On the other hand, listing the items (for the record: "L. Ron Hubbard", Certainty, vol. 3 no. 2, Hubbard Association of Scientologists International, 1956; "L. Ron Hubbard - Explorer of Two Realms", in Mission into Time, Advanced Organisation Saint Hill Denmark, 1973; L. Ron Hubbard : a profile, L. Ron Hubbard Library, 1995) and claiming they contradict is insufficient. If someone wishes to cite these for the discrepancy, they should be cited directly with what each says, to give examples of how they contradict each other. As a hypothetical example, if one claims that he spent his junior year in high school as an exchange student to Jupiter, and another that he was brought back from a childhood in Egypt to Galilee to work as a carpenter until his early thirties — mention both what each says, cite them, and then feel free to note the contradiction, and let the reader infer the degree... although one might even feel free to add quotes from Blue Sky claiming Hubbard's autobiography was his greatest work of fiction. Abb3w 15:50, 11 February 2007 (UTC), SP

Concur on the latter. On the former, you are entitled, etc, etc. I can as easily think of him an imperfect tool in the hand of the divine. But that's just me. --Justanother 15:54, 11 February 2007 (UTC)

Yah, I allow for the possibility in my talk page response to your question. But that's getting away from the point at hand. Quote the sources, and the reader can figure out the extent.Abb3w 16:18, 11 February 2007 (UTC)

Joseph Cressman Thompson, M.D.

SM Sullivan has made the effort to write Joseph Cressman Thompson, M.D. . Could somebody please help him (not sure if ", M.D." goes in the article name, and the beginning should be bold), and then wikilink it correctly in this article?

I also kept two articles from ars about Snake Thomson, mail me if interested. --Tilman 14:25, 15 February 2007 (UTC)

I took M.D. out of the name Joseph Cressman Thompson. and someone has bolded it. Thanks to all. Tilman, if the ARS

articles about Thompson are well-sourced, please add the info to the Thompson article, if it is not already covered.S. M. Sullivan 23:09, 22 February 2007 (UTC)

Hubbard: Mad Man?

Was Hubbard a crazy, mad man? Maybe! Tom Cruise and the "Church of Scientology" is crazy and bad! —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Conqaxxx (talk • contribs) 17:18, 23 February 2007 (UTC).

Conqaxx, please remember that this is a page for discussing the article on L. Ron Hubbard. Our own personal value judgements on whether something is "good" or "bad", our personal opinions on whether something is "crazy", don't really belong here unless they lead to improvements in the article. -- Antaeus Feldspar 17:32, 23 February 2007 (UTC)

Seconded. However, I would point out to Justanother that WP:TPG frowns both on such remarks and on other users removing them. The main grounds for outright removal to the remark would be based on its possibly libelous content towards Mr. Cruise. (Scientology has no grounds to object on Mr. Hubbard's behalf, since under US law one cannot libel the dead.) If so, there is information at WP:LIBEL on the appropriate contact. (Since this remark is on a talk page as opposed to the proper Entry, WP:BLP seems less applicable.)

IAmNotALawyer, but I suspect that Mr. Cruise's status as a public figure might make such litigation inherently difficult under the "actual malice" standard — if not also personally problematic, since to gain a judgment of libel, he would be required to argue that this bare assertion was reasonably believable. I do not believe this is a position that the Church of Scientology would likely be enthusiastic about one of their most visible members taking in an official and public forum. I'd almost be willing to risk his libel suit myself if I could be sure of getting that on the record. =) Abb3w 22:17, 23 February 2007 (UTC)

Hi. Please read the 2nd para of WP:BLP that begins "We must get the article right." and see if that changes your mind. Otherwise I will take this up elsewhere rather than war with you over it. Thanks. --Justanother 22:21, 23 February 2007 (UTC)

I did, prior to my remarks. I've also re-read the entirety of WP:BLP. I stand by my position, that a random insult does not seem "biographical material". However, I'm not an admin, and would be interested in clarification from one on such situations. Meanwhile, I suggest the change above as a compromise, to clearly show that material was removed and why. Abb3w 23:29, 23 February 2007 (UTC)

... The reason I did not protest Justanother's unilateral removal of this section, though I found it in poor taste and rather indicative of a double standard given other recent actions of his, was because the section was an unfortunate addition in the first place. As stated to the original poster, talk pages are not general discussion boards but discussion areas for discussing improvements to the article. This is not something that would be immediately known by new posters, however, which is why I looked askance at Justanother's decision to remove anything that would help that newbie perhaps participate better in the future.

I had no idea that Justanother would ever try to advance such a fantastical, bizarre theory such as that WP:BLP actually allows him to censor any opinion whatsoever expressed about a living person. Why, obviously then I can go around erasing all the rude, WP:AGF-violating posts that Justanother has been leaving here, there and everywhere accusing other Misplaced Pages editors of acting in bad faith -- those other editors are living people too, and if simply expressing an opinion that someone is "crazy" or "bad" is suddenly enough to violate WP:BLP then I'm sure that Justanother's labelling of other editors as "POV-pushers", for example, certainly can't be allowed to stand. -- Antaeus Feldspar 03:21, 24 February 2007 (UTC)

No biggie. I will post it on BLPN and hopefully we will know before too long. I have learned that even experienced editors/admins can make mistakes and, god knows, I am not perfect. --Justanother 03:11, 24 February 2007 (UTC)

Posted Misplaced Pages:Biographies of living persons/Noticeboard‎ --Justanother 04:55, 24 February 2007 (UTC)

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