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Talk: Valencia (autonomous community) /Archive 1
The name is not correct
Land of Valencia?. This name is invented by the wikipedians, the name in english must be Valencian Community or Community of Valencia, or simple: Valencia (autonomous community), because the name of this region is Valencia, like the capital. But Land of Valencia is not a name with english tradition and what is the mean?. I read some lines ago that the most usual name in internet is Community of Valencia, good, use this name for the Valencia autonomous community. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 84.120.17.126 (talk • contribs) January 26, 2006.
- Exactly. I cited 9 sources in English (official and academic), and someone above cited a US government source--none use Land of Valencia. The disagreement here is with Joanot, who insists on using Land of Valencia for imaginary political reasons. Malandi 22:13, 29 January 2006 (UTC)
"Okay, here's the deal"
Okay, here's the deal. Neither the Spanish nor the Catalan version of this article (funny how there's no Valencian version) say anything about Valencian being a "separate" language from Catalan. They talk about it being a more conservative variety of Catalan, or the name of given to the langauge elsewhere called Catalan. So, before anyway goes calling it a separate language here, I would suggest you go try that out with your OWN COUNTRYMEN AND COUNTRYWOMEN first, Castilian-speaking, Catalan-speaking, and Valencian-speaking, before you try and pull one over on us dumb English-speakers. I mean, really. If you can pull it off on either the Spanish or Catalan site, then perhaps we can discuss changing the English-language site. But the English-language site is no place to be airing your intra-Spain political recriminations. Blondlieut 22:20, 15 February 2006 (UTC)
"the Misteri d'Elx, which has been declared part of "World Heritage" by UNESCO."
there's no context or explanation for what this is or why it's important. Blondlieut 16:13, 15 February 2006 (UTC) "The same law contains no mention of Castilian as its own language."
I assume "own language," pròpia llengua/propia lengua, is a direct translation from the Spanish/Catalan/Valencian/What-have-you. It does not work in English. I think what the writer may mean to say is that "the law contains no mention that Castilian is a language over which the Valencian region has some claim of ownership" or some such. At any rate, this idea that a lengua/llengua is a region's "own," (or perhaps "proper") given that in the article goes on to say that Castilian is oficial throughout Spain. Well ... official languages, regardless of whatever some local enactment might say, I would think would have some standing as the "own" or "proper" language of at least some Valencians, particularly the not insignificant portion of the population that speaks Castilian, and those in the western portion of the region who have always spoken Castilian. You know, as an American with great sympathy for the aspirations of those who wish to reassert the perrogatives of Catalan/Valencian, the unstated arrogance here is thick enough to cut a knife with, and is not likely to win any friends, and more importantly ... VIOLATES NPOV. Blondlieut 21:34, 15 February 2006 (UTC)
It's just a bit silly. I mean, in Catalan or Spanish, Paisos Catalans is not "Catalan Lands" in English, is it? Silly, silly, silly. Why would one even translate "pais" as "land" in English?? Land of Valencia. Valencia Land. It sounds like something at Disney World, not a real place. Blondlieut 02:22, 15 February 2006 (UTC)
"Valencian language is considered legally the proper language, according the "Law of Use and Education of Valencian" approved in 1983."
Okay, this isn't really English. Does the writer mean to say "The language of Valencia is properly Valencian, pursuant to the Use and Educuation in Valencian Act of 1983," or "The Valencian language is properly called "Valencian," as noted in the Use and Education in Valencian Act of 1983." I honestly cannot tell from the muddle of the current sentence (which may be a muddle of the English, a muddle of the thoughts, or a muddle of both). Sorry to be so harsh, but I think there's more of a pushing of an agenda here (i.e., "considered legally the proper language"), and demarcating the distance between Valencian and Catalan and Castilian, than in writing a useful and helpful encylcopedia article for English speakers. Ditto "Land of Valencia/Valencia Land" Duh, to quote Homer Simpson. Blondlieut 02:31, 15 February 2006 (UTC)
Okay .... now I'm really getting annoyed. If Valencian is its "own" language (and not, say, any more different from Catalan spoken in Bareclona than American English is from British English), then why isn't there a Valencian wikipedia? And if its own language, than why is Joan Fuster, born in "Valencia Land" (NEXT STOP ON MONORAIL BLUE, VALENCIA LAND, AN E-TICKET ATTRACTION IN THE SPANISH PAVILLION!!!), and who writes in a language that looks suspiciously like Catalan, listed in Misplaced Pages under "Catalan-language Writers" instead of "Valencian-language Writers"? Oh, I know why, that's because in English, Valencian describes organges and a flavor at Starbucks, not a language, and not a "land," regardless of whatever nonsense you put in here. Sorry about that. Blondlieut 02:49, 15 February 2006 (UTC)
There's a really wonderful word in English: polysemy. It means ... a word can mean more than one thing. Valencia is ... a city, a province (created, I believe .. not by Valencians, but artificially, by the Spanish State, as I recall), and a "region," of some sort). As to the latter, seems to me, the silliness of having this anywhere other than under "Valencia (Autonomous Community)" is born out by the very box on Spain's Administrative Structure down at the bottom of the article.
I live in Virginia. Virginia is "officially" not a state. It's a commonwealth. Yet, Virginia is listed in Misplaced Pages under Virginia. And the name of the country (aHem) is the United States of America (not the United States and Commonwealths of America).
Would I expect Valencians (or anyone outside the Old Dominion) to have to look for Virginia under "Commonwealth of Virginia" just to statisy my own personal Virginianist agenda rather than under "Virginia" under the theory that it's not a state? Are we going to put Rhode Island under "Rhode Island and Providence Plantations" as this is the "real" name of that state?
The mind boggles. 14:09, 15 February 2006 (UTC) —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Blondlieut (talk • contribs) .
- Blondlieut, reading through this, I can tell that you are annoyed, but I honestly cannot tell what changes you want to make in the article, or with whom you are arguing; "now I'm really getting annoyed" is an odd remarks amidst a monologue. - Jmabel | Talk 03:43, 22 February 2006 (UTC)
One can be annoyed without arguing. Anyway, I made the changes regarding the name of the language, which aren't nearly as severe as my comments are.Blondlieut 05:53, 22 February 2006 (UTC)
- The name of "Land of Valencia" is used by valencian government nowadays, and it's English perfectly such as "England", "Holland", "Switzerland", "Finland", "Poland", "Ireland", "Scotland", etc... Of course, the literal translation of "País Valencià" is "Valencian Country", such as Basque Country or Catalan Countries. This name isn't being related to this translation as I've answared you on Talk:Joan Fuster already. I suppose that "Land of Valencia" would be more or less the same literal meaning as "País de València" (such as "País de Gales", Wales). --Joanot Martorell ✉ 17:38, 26 February 2006 (UTC)
Joanot, you've proven the silliness of this, and the fact that you're tone-deaf to the usage of this in English. We indeed say Wales in English, not Wales Land or Land of Wales. Fascinating, it may occur to you, this is not the Catalan or the the Valecian or the Spanish language version of Misplaced Pages, it's the English language version, and "Land of Valencia" sounds stupid. It is downright illiterate. Do you want people to think that Valecians are dumb, stupid and illiterate people? Is that what you want? Is that the impression that you wish to give? Then by all means stick with the name "Land of Valencia," because that's the impression it gives. It is not English. You are the only person who has written on the discussion page that is in support of keeping that name. I will be changing it back, unless you can drum up support from someone else who speaks ***English***, as this is the ENGLISH-LANGUAGE version of Misplaced Pages. Blondlieut 02:16, 27 February 2006 (UTC)
To take but one (but certainly not the only) example of the confusion created by this ... let me point out the stupidity in English created by the phrase when combined with other phrases, such as "Seaports." So, in the links section, one of the links is "Seaports of Land of Valencia." (First off, let me point out the the phrase as an article missing in English ... would you like to guess and tell me where it is??) Now unless a English-speaker were very well versed in the (silly) politics of naming, there are at least two ways to interpret this (based on the ridiculous notion that "Land" in English corresponds to "Pais" in Spanish/Catalan, rather than Tierra/Terra ... recollecting of course that "land" in England is indeed ... Ingleterra/Angleterra in Spanish/Catalan, not Pais Angles/Ingles, for example) ... it could be ... Ports terrestres de Valencia (whatever that means) or Ports de (la) terra valenciana (English needs an article here, by the way, which it's currently lacking because of this silly "Land" construction)(wherever that might be). Again, it's just simply illiterate in English. Why can't it be "Seaports in the Community of Valencia?" I dunno. I mean, last I checked, "Comunidad" was at least one of the translations for "Commonwealth" as in the official name of the (real) country of Australia; if Australia can be the Comunidad de Australia, why is this a put-down when used for the (not-quite-as-real-as-Australia) country called Valencia?
It's not. And, oh, by the way ... the formulation you keep changing happens to be idiomatic, natural and perfectly understandable English, and "Land" is not. Blondlieut 05:42, 27 February 2006 (UTC)
- "País" in Catalan/Spanish not only means "Country" in English, but also any territorial unit such as a province, a region, a country, a state, a county, etc... whatever territorial unit you want. Anyway, this form is used by Valencian government, not by me (my personal preference is "Valencian Country"), and when a political representation of valencians are using this form in English ("Land of Valencia") in all touristic publication for the most important events in Valencia, the literature isn't important. The literature could be important if we would have some doubt about the name, in order to help ourselves to choose the correct one, but not when it's clear about an official use in English. --Joanot Martorell ✉ 08:59, 27 February 2006 (UTC)
Joanot, you're missing the point. This being the English-language version of Misplaced Pages, at the moment what's at issue is the meaning of the English word "Land," not the meaning of the Catalan or the Spanish word Pais. And "Land" does not mean what you think it does, nor does it mean what you propose, nor does it translate "pais" in any meaningful way. At any rate, I believe we've been through the tiresome excerise of the name in English, and its official status in English-- that being that there is no such creature. That there may be bureaucrats in various minor agencies of the Autonomous Community who have (quite incorrectly) used the term "Land" in English (along with a whole host of other various unidiomatic uses of our grand mother tongue) does not change our beloved mother tongue, would not merit an entry in the Oxford English Dictionary, and more importantly ... does not even begin to meet the criterion for forestalling my eventual changing of your reversions. And that's simple, and a very low threshold-- finding one (1), just one other native speaker of English who happens to agree with you. (That's generous indeed, seeing as how consensus would appear not to be on your side, for a fair reading of this discussions page)
Good luck with that, Joanot. Good luck indeed. Blondlieut 13:00, 27 February 2006 (UTC)
Hey, in your spare time, why don't you go harrass the Norwegians on their Bokmal page who clearly have this as Valencia (Autonomi), as do the Swedes? Stop vandalizing the pages of us poor Anglo-Saxons for a while, and pick on the Nordic countries. Blondlieut 13:10, 27 February 2006 (UTC)
- According to Cambridge dictionary, the word "land" means "a country" in a more nearest sense of "region" but not "nation". On Merriam-Webster dictionary this word means also "country" or the "the people of a country". In Oxford English Dictionary, it's also "a country or state". In these dictionaries, there are several exemples about using the word "land" as meaning of "region" or "country", such as Cambridge Dict. ("The group want to promote their ideas in schools throughout the land."). I'm seeing that you're disappointing all these English dictionaries, not to me. If you dislike this name, I understand you because I also dislike it, but the fact is that's being used by Valencian government. If you disagree with them, complain them instead doing it here. --Joanot Martorell ✉ 14:39, 27 February 2006 (UTC)
Again I would point out that there's more than something a bit tone-deaf in your example. The phrase "throughout the land" uses "land" as a common noun; the issue here is that "Land" is capitalized as used as a proper noun. It has an overly poetic, and as has been pointed out several times "Disneyland" quality to it. Are there any examples where "Land" is used as a separate word, but capitalized, as if part of a proper noun? That usage in English seems artificial in the extreme, and very "Disney," as in ...."The Land of Tomorrrow," brought to you the good people at General Electric. It's not real English, it's publicity English, and yes, it's Tourism Department English. Very good of you to point that out as an example.Blondlieut 19:36, 27 February 2006 (UTC)
- This is more selective thinking and bias on Joanot's part. He just claimed that the most recent tourist publications use Land of Valencia preferentially (implying official status). Again, I already disproved this earlier--
- The four publications under Collection product guides use only Region of Valencia.
- The four publications under Theme leaflet collection use only Land of Valencia.
- The sixteen publications under Districts of the interior collection use only Land of Valencia.
- The eightteen publications under Magazine CVNews use only Region of Valencia and cite the President of the Valencian Regional government (cf Presidente de la Generalitat Valenciana)
- The four publications under Collection product guides use only Region of Valencia.
- He says that the name is being used by the Valencian government. The Valencian government has no preference (I even emailed them about this). Also, it's been pointed out that in official publications from the Spanish government (not Valencian) and foreign governments prefer the "Autonomous Community" nomenclature:
- http://www.constitucion.es/constitucion/lenguas/ingles.html. Spanish Constitution, official translation to English. Note that "Comunidad" and "Comunidad Autónoma" are translated as "Community" and "Autonomous Community".
- http://www.uv.es/~webuv/ingles/guide.pdf. Guide to the University of Valencia, English translation. On page 5, "Readers will find in it the widest study offer for both official and UV–specific degrees in the Valencian Community, delivered in three campuses and six scientific areas."
- http://www.britannica.com/eb/article-9074684. Encyclopedia Britannica article on Valencia. Note the textual use of "comunidad autónoma", the translation as "autonomous community" at the beginning (defining the term for the rest of the article).
- http://www.orbilat.com/Encyclopaedia/V/Valencia_community.html. Orbis encyclopedia article on Valencia. Same as above.
- http://www.encyclopedia.com/html/v/valenc-rgn.asp. Columbia encyclopedia article on Valencia. Translated as "autonomous region".
- http://encarta.msn.com/encyclopedia_761573717/Valencia_(region_Spain).html. MSN Encarta online encyclopedia article on Valencia. Same as above.
- http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=valencia. American Heritage dictionary entry on Valencia. "A region of eastern Spain on the Mediterranean coast..." There are separate entries for the province and city of Valencia.
- http://www.m-w.com/dictionary/valencia. Meriam-Webster dictionary entry on Valencia. "region & ancient kingdom E Spain" There are separate entries for the province and city of Valencia.
- http://encarta.msn.com/dictionary_/valencia.html MSN Encarta World English dictionary entry on Valencia. "1. capital of the autonomous region of Valencia in eastern Spain."
Malandi 18:00, 28 February 2006 (UTC)
- http://www.constitucion.es/constitucion/lenguas/ingles.html. Spanish Constitution, official translation to English. Note that "Comunidad" and "Comunidad Autónoma" are translated as "Community" and "Autonomous Community".
Consistent city names
Some of the city names are in Spanish with a Valencian version in parentheses, others in Valencian with a Spanish version in parentheses. Let's have one or the other for consistency's sake.
- In some cities there is historically Spanish-speaker, and in others there are Catalan-speaker, and so it's respecting the local endonym. By exemple, there are the names Orihuela (Spanish) and Oriola (Catalan) for the same city, but there is using Orihuela because it's historically Spanish-speaker. You can see the Spanish-speaker area and the Catalan-speaker area in a map shown at Valencian. There is a border used with a red line. --Joanot Martorell ✉ 19:49, 1 March 2006 (UTC)
I believe Joanot makes a good point. Perhaps all that would become clearly when this article becomes more than a stub.Blondlieut 18:27, 2 March 2006 (UTC)
Statute being reformed?
I think this sentence is out of place in the first paragraph: Nowadays, the Valencian Statute of Autonomy is being reformed in order to recognize officially Valencia as a nationality, pursuant to the Spanish Constitution of 1978.
The opening paragraph should set the scene geographically and administratively, that's it--just like in all the other articles (including the Spanish version) Malandi 06:55, 3 March 2006 (UTC)
I'm not sure "statutes" are reformed. Perhaps the autonomous status of Valencia could be "presently" (obviously not "nowadays") undergoing reformation (although that makes me think more of Martin Luther more than it does a political process). It seems like so much semantics, but I think what the sentence is attempting to convey is that the "Autonomy Statute" as the various estatutos de autonomias are called elsewhere on English Misplaced Pages, is being "amended" (that's what we do when we change constitutions and the like, but perhaps "modified" if one wanted to make certain that more "adding materia" is going on) to recognize Valencia as a "nationality" within the Spanish State.Blondlieut 15:53, 3 March 2006 (UTC)
- Right, if the statutes haven't actually been reformed yet, then it's a proposed reform or simply a proposal. The sentence conveys something overly definitive and reeks of non-NPOV Malandi 18:52, 3 March 2006 (UTC)
Opening paragraph
I think the opening paragraph should set the scene geographically and administratively. This means: saying what major administrative subunits Valencia governs and where it is in Spain (see this article as an example http://www.orbilat.com/Encyclopaedia/V/Valencia_community.html). Saying that it is in Eastern Iberia isn't necessary, since people can figure out that Spain is almost exclusively in Iberia, thus saying eastern Spain is sufficient. Also, things like land border could be placed in the sidebar instead of the first paragraph, since it isn't a critical feature of Valencia. The coastline, however, is, since Valencia has a heavy tourist industry. Perhaps mentioning some comparative details would be better, like "xth longest in Spain" Malandi 18:48, 3 March 2006 (UTC)
Castilian vs. Spanish
I think translation castellano as Castilian is a bit overkill, since the Castilian v. Spanish distinction is really a political issue for the inhabitants of Spain about the naming of the language. In English when you say Castilian it refers to a specific dialect of Spanish and not the Spanish language, the latter of which is the intended meaning of castellano in these cases. In English the term Spanish is overwhelmingly preferred. Malandi 10:17, 5 March 2006 (UTC)
- In Valencian vs. Catalan case it's the exactly same matter as Castilian vs. Spanish. --Joanot Martorell ✉ 18:55, 5 March 2006 (UTC)
- I think you missed one of my points. It's 'not' the same for this reason: in Spanish they're using 'castellano' to refer to the Spanish language and divorce the word from nationality. In English 'Castilian' is rare to find when referring to the 'Spanish language' (and not the dialect of Castile). Malandi 23:37, 5 March 2006 (UTC)
Inclusion of "Valencian Community"
What's the big fuss with including "Valencian Community" as one of the possible translated names? This translation appears in scholarly articles (cited above), tourist guides, Universities in Valencia, and a sizable number (the largest number) of webpages in English. The Valencian gov't has already mentioned it does not act in any official capacity regarding the translation of the name, so that can't be an issue.
I really don't see the leap of logic that it takes here to accept Valencian Community: Comunidad Autónoma <--> Autonomous Community; Valenciana <--> Valencian; Comunidad Valenciana <--> _____________. Given the specific nomenclature of the autonomous communities, the meaning is pretty clear. In English, Country is usually associated with (independent) states, which neither the Basque AC is nor Valencia, but people accept those names in English. Malandi 00:18, 7 March 2006 (UTC)
About "Catalan Countries"
It is frequent to find texts in which Valencia is included within the “Catalan Countries”, nevertheless I want to correct this error of political origin (Catalan nationalism) so generalized. The Kingdom of Valencia never has belonged to any “Catalan Countries”. The Valencian culture cannot be described like “Catalan”, because these two cultures are different and have diverse origins (the Kingdom of Valencia exists from before the conquest of Jaume I). The Valencian language comes from the occitano, and therefore it has a parallel origin and development to the Catalan language, but it does not come absolutely from this one. Really, the Valencians are not “Catalan” in any aspect; its history, language and culture do not have to be distorted.
- I agree with you. It´s ridiculous when some people pretend to say that people from Valencia or the Balearic Islands are Catalans. Let´s be serious, Catalonia never was a country and never was a Kingdom, why do they do that?. Imperialism in the 21st century?. Please!!!This is an encyclopedia!!!And the same for those who pretend to say that Valencian is a different language to Catalan. Can anybody tell me any linguistic or academic organization who defend that theory of two different languages?. This is an encyclopedia not a place where political vindications are made.
You'll never give up saying sci-fi arguments about Valencian coming from occitan or mozarabic. Really, it's pathetic.
I'm French and have been living in Valencia for 5 years now. What really surprises me regarding the controversy about the "Catalan Countries" is that nobody has criticized the absurdity of the Catalan arguments. We are all supposed to enjoy our basic rights but apparently, according to Catalan politicians, Valencians have no right whatsoever to choose how they can call their region or their own language. The only ones having this right are Catalans!!! Catalan and Valencian are unmistakenly extremely similar languages but tell that to Croatians or Slovakians!!! Using the same absurd arguments, Croatia should be part of the "Serb Countries", a term in fact used only by the ultra-nationalist parties in Belgrade. Try also telling a Croatian that his language is in fact Serb not Croatian!!! The same arguments hold also true for Slovakia and the Czech Republic. Both these cases are very similar to the Valencian/Catalan case. Using the same arguments, Australia, New Zealand and the US (among others) also belong to the "English Countries" since they speak the same language!!! I have no scientific data to corroborate my claim, but I doubt whether any Valencian considers himself/herself Catalan, except of course an extremely small minority of pro-Catalan leftists. Obviously, and this is the bottom line, the origin of all these science-fiction theories about the existence of the "Catalan Countries" is purely economic. A rich and prospering Valencian Community is a thorn to the visions of "grandeur" and dominance by the Catalan political establishment!!! Don't look further than the recent ridiculous travails of the Endesa buyout. A Spanish company 's buyout by a Catalan group is viewed as healthy economic activity while the buyout of the same group by a German group is mean and evil!!
Name Again
This article needs to be titled "Valencia (autonomous region)" or "Valencia (autonomous community)". "Land of Valencia" is not used in English and sounds awful. Obviously changed by one side or the other in the great Spanish debate about what a country is. Living in Barcelona, a city where old people often can be found looking for food in bins, this constant debate about semantics seems like a massive waste of a "nation"s time.
Disambiguate Help
Hello everyone, there is a current need to help disambiguate the term Valencia. At Misplaced Pages:Disambiguation pages with links, Valencia is one of the disambiguation pages with the most links, and ideally there should be no links to disambiguation pages. So if possible, please take a look at the links, and disambiguate to a more correct location. Thanks, -- Jeff3000 03:46, 14 September 2006 (UTC)
History is History.
Regarding your page on Valencia: 1) let me explain to you that Valencia and Cataluña are neighbour lands (autonomous communities). Full stop. It is incorrect to mix both when you speak about Valencia. Therefore, trying to create confussion and to build common Institutions (except Spain, as a nation)between Valencia and Cataluña , is simply false and misleading.
2) the problem with catalans is that are desperately trying to invent their history "a la carte". Till the XIX century they have no literature (all the classics are written in valencian language, not in catalan); no flag (it is the flag of the Aragon kingdom); no local heros (Wifredo for example was French from Carcassonne; Ramon Lull was from Mallorca, Roger de Lauria was Italian, etc. etc..). Therefore, they can only try to absorb other's history by saying that "catalán language " is the common umbrella for them and their neighbours, and therefore "all" is catalán. May I remember you Hitler's statement "if Austrians speak german, they are germans".
The problem is that neither Austrians are Germans, nor Valencians or Mallorquins, are Catalans (thanks God, I must say, because we have a different culture and respect for the others).
Misplaced Pages can go on including informations that are not true and do not correspond with the History or the legal&real situation, or can gain prestige by informing correctly.
Hi everyone, im from Valencia and im a bit concerned with that that Joanot has tried to state. Valencia is no country and not a "land" probably Joanot has a certain particular and not at all popular political opinion. There are heated debates around spain for the diferent names that comunities should have. Inthe end there are oficial names, and only those ones should be used. Also i'll like to remiind that Valencia was founded in teh year 138bc by Junio Bruto Galaico, and named the city VALENTIA EDETANORUM. Sadly the definition at wiki is quite inexact on many aspects and probably manipulated by the noisy minority of independentist political parties.
Thanks for your time. Bele
Revision by Maurice27
I'm listing the revised facts in the article:
1.- In english word for "Castilian" has not the same meaning than in Spain and it always redirects to "Spanish language", then I edited to "Spanish".
2.- Valencian language has official status in Spain and even its own Academy (the Acadèmia Valenciana de la Llengua), then I edited to Valencian all the "Catalan" synonims.
3.- In the History section, Catalan colonization is mentioned. Being James I an aragonese king, a french (Montpellier) -born from an aragonese king and a french princess, why is there always the need to described his troops as catalan? That is not only unaccurate, but simply and completely FALSE. Troops from Aragon, Catalonia, Roussillon, Valencia, Balears or Sardinia from the XI to XVIII centuries (XVII for Rousillon) HAVE TO BE described as ARAGONESE. For this reason I erased "Catalan colonisation".
4.-I have also edited some other unaccurate or even false history facts (i.e. Phillip V of Spain, Senyera...)
5.- And Last, but not Least, I have erased the "The Catalan-speaking territories" Table because:
This table, which includes the following subdivisions: (History of Catalonia · Treaty of the Pyrenees · Catalan constitutions · Generalitat de Catalunya · Govern de les Illes Balears · Consell General de les Valls (Andorra) · Politics of Catalonia · Catalan nationalism) among others, has nothing to do with this Autonomous Community of Valencia wikipage. For this reason, I am erasing it. For the Valencian speaking demographics and Valencian government facts inside the table, I believe it is already correctly explained in the normal text.
To finish, I would like to kindly ask all the contributors which feel the "urgent need" to fool and fill the Misplaced Pages world with Pan-Catalanism, Catalan Countries wannabe, Catalan nationalism and just plain false pseudo-Catalan History to restraint themselves from doing it. Not all the surrounding lands to Catalonia feel the need to become part of it, and the english Misplaced Pages will not become a highway to "export" their history "a la carte". Giving for right the fact that we should not generalize, I often wonders if these people suffer from the well-known "Catalan Small Penis Syndrome" (Are we allowed to say "penis"?)
WIKIPEDIA IS NOT A PRO-CATALAN POLITICAL PAMPHLET Maurice27 22:20, 8 February 2007 (UTC)
- In general I agree that your edits reduce some catalanophil POV and are correct. But in the case of the Senyera it would also be misleading to say that its name come from old Spanish, when obviously comes from Catalan (and, anyways, Senyal Real is perfect Catalan all the same).
- I think is also important to refer to the new Bourbon dinasty and the changes they brought. For some people they may be good, for others bad, but at least one thing is clear: those changes are undisputed and should be displayed in the article.
Mountolive 23:46, 8 February 2007 (UTC)
- You did some quite good arrangements, thanks. But as you explained the changes brought by Phillip V, you used de De facto expression, while they were a perfect example of a De jure movement (A decree is an order made by a head of state or government and having the force of law). See Nueva Planta decrees. I think that "De facto" should be changed ;) Maurice27 00:47, 9 February 2007 (UTC)
- Forgot to mention that "correct spelling" in catalan should be "Senyal Reial". Don't forget that both Catalan and Spanish were being born in those ages. Even in present-day, but far far more in those years, they are pretty similar. The reason for spelling it in "old spanish" is not other that Kings of Aragon from the House of Barcelona had the Kingdom of Aragon "official" Spanish language taken as their own and their vassals, therefore the use of the old spanish "Senyal Real" Maurice27 00:56, 9 February 2007 (UTC)
- I understand now your point with the de facto thing. But what is meant is that it started the CENTRALIZED de facto Kingdom vs. the de jure centralized Habsburg Spain which, actually was not even de jure centralized. In other words, the de facto is referring to the administrative organization, not to the Spanish Kingdom itself. I'll try to reword this part.
- p.s. actually you are right: the de facto allusion is incorrect; hope the new wording is ok.
Mountolive 01:18, 9 February 2007 (UTC)
Biaised POV by Maurice27
Maurice argues he revised facts in the article because of:
- In english word for "Castilian" has not the same meaning than in Spain and it always redirects to "Spanish language", then I edited to "Spanish".
- I'm sorry, but it's not true. "Castillian Spanish", briefly "Castilian" often refers to the Spanish spoken in Spain. In spite of it, "Valencian" isn't neither a traditional English name but it's often called Catalan. Both are recently used as literal translation because of legal reasons of Autonomous Charts. In Spanish language case is the same case, this language isn't being referred as is, but "Castilian". A NPOV would be one of both two ways: refer those languages in English traditional names, it's Spanish and Catalan, or translate the names according legal reasons, it means it's Castillian and Valencian. I prefer both solution, is most informed and doesn't gives any doubt abut what it's telling about.
- Valencian language has official status in Spain and even its own Academy (the Acadèmia Valenciana de la Llengua), then I edited to Valencian all the "Catalan" synonims.
- I'm sorry, but it's not true. AVL academy stated officialy that Valencian is the same language used in Catalonia and called Catalan. The use of a different name because of traditional and historical reasont doesn't imply the status of different language. See Valencian for further info.
- In the History section, Catalan colonization is mentioned. Being James I an aragonese king, a french (Montpellier) -born from an aragonese king and a french princess, why is there always the need to described his troops as catalan? That is not only unaccurate, but simply and completely FALSE. Troops from Aragon, Catalonia, Roussillon, Valencia, Balears or Sardinia from the XI to XVIII centuries (XVII for Rousillon) HAVE TO BE described as ARAGONESE. For this reason I erased "Catalan colonisation".
- I'm sorry, but it's not true. The colonisation is about christian people over muslim people, and among the christian people the main nations are came from Catalonia and Aragon, in this order. The charts or "population" in Middle Ages, such "El Llibre de Repartiment d'Oriola" states it. As a proof that Catalan Chrsitians colons were majority is that the 85% of the territory was Catalan-speaking area in XVI century (according to language used in postal correspondence between Valencian churches during this century).
- I have also edited some other unaccurate or even false history facts (i.e. Phillip V of Spain, Senyera...)
- I'm sorry, but here you aren't giving any reason.
- And Last, but not Least, I have erased the "The Catalan-speaking territories".
- I'm sorry, but it isn't unreasonable. This is a template of the territories where Catalan is spoken, not about Catalonian territories. I'm not consider as Catalonian, but a Valencian Catalan-speaker.
- To finish, I would like to kindly ask all the contributors which feel the "urgent need" to fool and fill the Misplaced Pages world with Pan-Catalanism, Catalan Countries wannabe, Catalan nationalism and just plain false pseudo-Catalan History to restraint themselves from doing it. Not all the surrounding lands to Catalonia feel the need to become part of it, and the english Misplaced Pages will not become a highway to "export" their history "a la carte". Giving for right the fact that we should not generalize, I often wonders if these people suffer from the well-known "Catalan Small Penis Syndrome" (Are we allowed to say "penis"?)
- This is a futile argument largely used by Anti-Catalanism ideologies. And the latest sentence shows a lack of respectful. It shows that he doesn't accept to discuss several POV to achieve a NPOV.
--Joanot Martorell ✉ 17:44, 9 February 2007 (UTC)
Biaised POV by Joanot
I will try to answer without rewritting everything, if missing anything, refer to previous section:
- Castilian/spanish argument:
You said that "Castilian" often refers to the Spanish spoken in Spain". --> So you mean people from Havana speak cuban? What a nonsense!
Besides, Valencian has an english wikipage and Castilian does not, being redirected to ]. Therefore, using castilian is an unproper use of English language.
- Valencian/Catalan argument:
You deny the AVL to state the difference between both languages. I quote from ]: "L'Acadèmia Valenciana de la Llengua és una institució de caràcter públic creada per la Generalitat Valenciana i adscrita a Presidència. Té per objecte determinar i elaborar la normativa lingüística del valencià" --> I don't see any reference to Catalan here... Maybe I'm blind...
- You ask me to see in Valencian wikipage to endorse your arguments. I did... An look what I found in the last paragraph of the "Language or Catalan Dialect?" section: "The Autonomy Statute (of Valencia) refers to the Valencian language as valencià"--> Too bad for you. Even the Valencia Autonomy Statute (some laws quite importants for you pan-catalanist people), described the official language as "Valencià"
- History section argument:
Nobody is denying that a vast majority of aragonese colons were from Catalonia (which lets not forget DID NOT exist as such until centuries later), or from the Principality of Catalonia (Which is a legal term (in Latin principatus) that appeared in XIV century to name the territory under jurisdiction of Catalan Cortes, the sovereign of which (in Latin, princeps) was the king of Aragón, without being formally a kingdom). The problem is the use of "Catalan people" and redirecting that to "Catalonia". That is simple historically unaccurate in those ages. You could change the sentence to "James I "the Conqueror" led Aragonese colonization of the Islamic taifas of Valencia and Dénia with colons of catalan origin", for example. That, could be accurate.
- History facts argument:
You tell me that I am not giving any reasons for the changes. --> Well, then what have I been doing with Mountolive last 48 hours??? Playing poker maybe?
- The Catalan-speaking territories table argument:
Ahhh, my favourite! What has to do a completely pro-catalan biased table in this page? Ok let's see it:
Catalan / Valencian cultural domain |
---|
History |
People |
Language
|
Geo-political divisions |
Government and politics |
Traditions |
Cuisine |
Art |
Literature |
Music and performing arts |
SportSport in Catalonia |
Symbols |
- Your words now, I quote: "This is a template of the territories where Catalan is spoken, not about Catalonian territories. --> Ok, I could accept that... If only the "language section" was included. But, then, we have the "History" section, one of my favourites, where we can see links to History of Catalonia, Counts of Barcelona, Treaty of the Pyrenees, Catalan constitutions (All of them REAAAALLY connected in ALL ways to Valencia) and Crown of Aragon (Thank God, at least one with ties with Valencia).
- Next Section, "Geography". Here we can find some WORLWIDE KNOWN valencian territories such as Catalonia, Balearic Islands,Northern Catalonia, Franja de Ponent, Andorra (My GOD, this should be studied by the UN, being Andorra an independent state, it becomes valencian!!!), L'Alguer and Carxe. Some of these are even using improper catalan names instead of the official ones, (but of course, I am an "anti-catalan"...).
- Next section, "Government and Politics". Here we can find some ABSOLUTLY related links for Valencia, such as Generalitat de Catalunya, Govern de les Illes Balears, Consell General de les Valls (Andorra), the funny Politics of Catalonia and the hillarious Catalan nationalism
- Last two sections, "Traditions". We have links to DEEP IN THE HEARTvalencian traditions such as Castells, Sardana, Caganer or Tió de Nadal (ALL OF THEM BEING -->UNIQUE<-- to Catalonia. We can also look for some fantastic valencian artists links, such as Salvador Dalí, Joan Miró and Antoni Tàpies all of them being born in....... Gentlemen, I let you guess......... Right!!! Born in Catalonia!! Not a single valencian artist is mentioned.
- I hope these proofs the completely biased content of this table, and wish it to be ERASED from all non-catalan wikipages.
- My GoodBye paragraph argument: It is described as a "futile argument largely used by Anti-Catalanism ideologies" --> Well, D'oh!, this is what is all about. Preventing you, Pan-Catalanists to poison the english wikipedia with your "à la carte" history.
WIKIPEDIA IS NOT TO BECOME A PRO-CATALAN POLITICAL PAMPHLET! Maurice27 20:34, 9 February 2007 (UTC)
- About the template, if you dislike it, please, discuss first it on the template talk-page, but you have no reason to remove this template of every page. --Joanot Martorell ✉ 22:34, 10 February 2007 (UTC)
- I don't need to discuss it on the template talk-page as there is no problem with the template itself. The problem is this template to be included in this page. Maurice27 12:10, 11 February 2007 (UTC)
---
Cubans speak American Spanish, not Castilian Spanish. It states your missaknowledgement about Spanish language. Call Valencian would be also unproper use of English language because it's Catalan. --Joanot Martorell ✉ 22:34, 10 February 2007 (UTC)
- Well, I swear that's the MOST STUPID COMMENT I've EVER seen in wikipedia!!!. Please show us what's the difference between spanish from Spain and spanish from Cuba. The "s" or "z" pronunciation? ROFL. You just lost all the credit you could have in wikipedia. Maurice27 03:49, 11 February 2007 (UTC)
- I don't deny anything. AVL itselfs stated officially that the language proper of the Valencian people talks is Catalan, but it's called traditionally as Valencian . If you have external references that doesn't support it, please, first change the introduction in Valencian before changing it in this article. --Joanot Martorell ✉ 22:34, 10 February 2007 (UTC)
- I wish I could, but then I will have all the pan-catalanist imperialism against me. But, in the link you just provided it is said in : ". La denominació de valencià és, a més, l’establida en l’Estatut d’Autonomia de la Comunitat Valenciana. Per tant, d’acord amb la tradició i amb la legalitat estatutària, l’AVL considera que el terme més adequat per a designar la llengua pròpia en la Comunitat Valenciana és el de valencià."--- I translate: "The Valencian denomination, is established by the autonomous statute of the C.V. Following tradition and the statute legality. the AVL considers that the most accurate term to refer the own language for the valencian community is Valencian" --> I hope there is nothing more to say... Maurice27 03:59, 11 February 2007 (UTC)
- Valencians aren't Aragonese. Catalonians aren't neither Aragonese. There were Catalonians and Aragoneses. The political relation between Valencia and the Crown of Aragon is the same between Australia and the Queen of England. This person is Head of State of UK and of Australia, but both are independent countries with their own laws, courts, parliament, money, etc... England was the core heart of the British Empire as Catalonia was also the core heart of the Crown of Aragon. The first documented mention to Catalonian people is very early in Middle Ages, from XIIth Century. A poem wrote by Laurentius Varonensis, "Liber Maiolichinus de gestis pisanorum illustribus", tells the conquest of Majorca island by pisans and catalonians, commanded by Ramon Berenguer III (the grandfather of James "the Conqueror", the founder of the Kingdom of Valencia). In this text the author refers this person and the soldiers commanded by him "catalanicus heros", "rector catalanicus", and "dux catalanensis". --Joanot Martorell ✉ 22:34, 10 February 2007 (UTC)
- My God, I can't believe it... Of course, now in 2007, valencians and catalans aren't aragonese. But how in hell can you deny the fact that both Valencia and catalonia were integrated in the Crown of Aragon in the XIV century????? It is VOX POPULI! Maurice27 04:10, 11 February 2007 (UTC)
- In XIV century Catalonians aren't Aragonese. The "Crown of Aragon" ( = "United Kingdom") is not the same as the "Kingdom of Aragon" (= "Kingdom of England"). And you avoided this reference I've gave here, this poem by Laurentius Varonensis in XIIth century. In the same century of Laurentius no exists yet any Kingdom of Aragon, but a County of Aragon dependant to the Kingdom of Navarre (Sobarbe, I'm not quite sure). Meanwhile, altough there wasn't yet any Principality of Catalonia, in the same territory existed several Catalan Counties, all those dependant to the County of Barcelona. Your edits are completely biaised by ideological reasons. --Joanot Martorell ✉ 18:16, 12 February 2007 (UTC)
- This is the last time I lose mine to answer such stupid and completely false arguments. "You say that in the XII century (the same as Laurentius Varonensis) no exists yet any Kingdom of Aragon"????--> Take the time to read some history before saying stupid things. I quote from the very Kingdom of Aragon wikipage: "The county of Aragón was split from the kingdom of Navarre in 1035, and elevated into a kingdom by Ramiro I.". I don't know in which year this Laurentius lived, but he suren't had any idea about the world around (thank God for the CNN). Kingdom of Aragon existed since 1035 (at least 100 years before Laurentius, probably almost 200). The UK has Q.E.II as head of state, so does Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland, apart England. And, while having different parliaments, Q.E. II IS STILL the head of state of all of them. And Scotland is now part of the UK, the same way the "the-still-to-be-know-as-Catalonia-territory-which-didn't-have-indepence-as-Scotland" was integrated to the Crown of Aragon.
- Any other stupid argument, dear Joanot, or would you rather go have some drinks with your friends and leave Misplaced Pages to cultivated people.
- Maurice27 23:03, 12 February 2007 (UTC)
The neutrality and factual accuracy of this article are disputed
- This is what Mr. Joanot is claiming. He is in his right, but, where are the explanations in this talk page to do it? This user is not using the right channels that wikipedia demands. This is a proof that how he considers his opinion OVER the others. Just by taking a look at his userpage talk page, or even this own Valencia talk page, you may see that the naming discussion has been around for a long time. Contributors decided to use both valencian and spanish namings because that's what the LAW says. I'm not the only one, many others confirmed it. There is even links in the article to the government of Valencia to prove it. People who understand Spanish can go to the spanish valencian discussion page and see that the name appearing is none other that "valencian language", not "Catalan". In fact the spanish article had to be protected because of his continuous edits and reverts against the Will of the Majority.
- I would like him to explain why the use of spanish and valencian namings are to be disputed. One being the name in english for the language spoken in Spain and the other one being the name given by the government of Valencia to his OWN language. When is Joanot going to understand that "castellano/Castilian" is a word people in Australia or Pennsylvania DO NOT KNOW! Who is Joanot to revert those FACTS. I consider this vandalizing Misplaced Pages.
- I would like him to explain why to erase the spanish naming "Comunidad Valenciana" from the infobox claiming that only official datas should be included, while ALL THE OTHERS autonomous communities in Spain with two official languages (see Basque Country (autonomous community), Catalonia, Balearic islands and Galicia) DO KEEP the spanish naming in the infobox. I consider this vandalizing Misplaced Pages.
- I would like him to explain why a template about Spain is not suitable to a spanish territory article (erasing it), while the Catalan-World one is. This morning, when I woke up, any newspaper said that Valencia had become a catalonian province. I consider this vandalizing Misplaced Pages.
- I would like him to explain why this sentence in the history section is to be changed:
- "James I "the Conqueror" led Aragonese colonization of the Islamic taifas of Valencia and Dénia with Catalan speaking people. So the Kingdom of Valencia has been an independent country under the sovereignity of the Crown of Aragon."
- For this one:
- "The King of Aragon James I "the Conqueror" started Christian colonization of the Islamic taifas of Valencia and Dénia with Catalonian and Aragonese people in 1208. In 1238 the Kingdom of Valencia has been founded by the same king as an independent country under the sovereignity of the Crown of Aragon. "
- This last version by Joanot is clearly using a bad use of english grammar, repeting the same thing (mentioning James I again, "the same king"). The catalan language of the colons is already explained in the first one. Then why change a correct paragraph just to say the same thing in an incorrect way. I consider this a bad use of english wikipedia.
- And finally I would like him to explain why did he include the dispute template without even taking the time to explain his reasons in this talk page. Proving with links, argumenting his beliefs to convince the other contributors that the changes made are to improve the article. This is something Joanot has not done much, and when done, it was giving unaccurate facts and lacking of any consideration against the established order or laws. Again, none of this has been done, while all the changes made by me are proven. People may not like many things they read, but that's because of the influence of personal beliefs on logic. I consider this a bad use of Misplaced Pages.
- I hope that now, with the dispute template, Admins. will kindly explain to this contributor how to use Misplaced Pages in a correct way.
Regards, Maurice27 12:12, 14 February 2007 (UTC)
- Yes, please, and block such a unpolite user as Maurice27, who doesn't respect non-native English speakers, insults others' ideologies and shows repeatingly his lacking of knowledge about History and Linguistics, at least regarding Valencian History and Valencian dialect of the Catalan language. I'm surprised that somebody who claims to speak French, Spanish and a bit of Occitan might give any credit to non-scientifical theories about Valencian and Catalan being two different languages, so I guess he is just a GOOD Frenchie-Spaniard, that is, a high-handed guy who despise minorized languages and people who try to revitalize them. According to French laws there is no other language spoken in the Hexagon than French, but we all there are many more: Catalan, Basque, Breton, or Corse, for example. So, Maurice27, don't use laws to annoy us. We do know laws are written by the winners of past wars, that is, Frenchies and Spaniards. You are just carrying to the Misplaced Pages your French-Spanish nationalisms which, as History has proven, mean obliteration or genocide. --Casaforra (parlem-ne) 13:48, 14 February 2007 (UTC)
- "A patriot is a man who loves his country, whereas a nationalist is a man who hates everybody else's country" - Samuel Johnson (or possibly Oscar Wilde)- Maurice27 14:26, 14 February 2007 (UTC)
As an admin, I am aware of this dispute. All parties are requested to try to find a compromise: I have already warned one party about his or her behaviour, but that doesn't mean that other people involved are "innocent". All the time which is spent reverting eachothers' edits is time which could be better spent adding new material to the articles, probably to the eventual benefits of both sides of the current argument and certainly to the benefit of our readers. Physchim62 (talk) 15:46, 14 February 2007 (UTC)
Let's start over
Ok guys, is high time to try to find some consensus here, because we are making the article a mess and each time worse.
And is really a pity -because the article is quite skinny and we should be working on making it better in the fundamental- to be discussing about inessential matters when essential aspects to the article are missed. For example, there is almost nothing said about Geography (main mountainous ranges, minor rivers, river basins), a more in depth description of the Economy and some other fundamental issues. On the contrary: we are barking here at the wrong tree, at least while the article is still in that basic appearance.
Maurice's straight style has fueled controversy and put people on the defensive, and that is not good. However, regardless his manners, his point seems to be at least partially correct at times.
Indeed it looks like there are some users who seem a bit obsessed in marking the articles they think appropiates with the word "Catalan" and, after this is done, they couldn't care less about the rest.
Otherwise I can't see the point of this edit
"In spite of this, there is an important number of Valencian private and civil entities such syndicates See logo of one of the most important syndicates, culture associations (...) wich represents more than 15% of votes in Autonomous Elections in 2003 wich are using simply the senyera as Valencian flag".
I mean, is this really essential? and, even if it was, isn't this just biased? We can discuss this later if you want, but in the meantime, we should start finding common ground with some other basic stuff
- Territory Name: there is absolutely no point in placing in the lead that "it is also called, Región de Valencia, Land of Valencia, Valencian Country, Regne de Valencia, Levante, just Valencia..." and so on. Really: it does not make any sense to put this in the leading. The lead should only use the official name. This should be self evident for everyone.
If someone wish to open a whole section with the different names, I think it should be hold until the article has reached consensus and has grown in the right direction (in the one of enlarging the undisputed facts).
- Language names.
There's no point in calling Spanish "Castilian" because, in English, Castilian doesn't simply mean "Castellano" in the Spanish sense. It is referred to the history of Castile and, in the linguistics scientific parlance, just a few of them use them as an alternative to Spanish, but using this 1% of the international users in this context is, obviously, POV pushing and not good faith.
"Catalan". I don't see the problem in using the official name and, not only the official, but the one used by say 99% of the speakers, which is Valencian, specially if we take into account that, when directed to this article, it is clearly stated that is a Catalan dialect which has gained relevance of its own, but still a part of Catalan. Again, keep pushing for Catalan again and again is POV pushing and not good faith.
I'm hoping that the nationalist users are more flexible and less politically oriented than so far. I'm also hoping that Maurice goes to civil manners and shows some flexibility as well.
So, please, let's all change our attitude and try to do a better job than so far: that is what we are supposed to be doing here, cooperate and make good articles.
Let's go for it.
Mountolive 02:22, 17 February 2007 (UTC)
- As long as a neutral, accurate and encyclopedic tone is used, I would be glad to cooperate to build it; To give a final read to the article and be able to click the unwatch buttom to dedicate myself to other articles in my spare time. I just don't want some articles to become a political pamphlet. You will have all the flexibility from me as long as I don't receive simple, non-explained reverts as an answer from the "opposite side". As for my part... "GO FLIGHT!" Maurice27 02:47, 17 February 2007 (UTC)
- I added Geography, thank you Maurice27 for adding Demographics. Now mostly Economics is missed. Mountolive | Talk 00:56, 19 February 2007 (UTC)
- I don't understand why to avoid using names that are being used in English language in an Enciclopaedia in English. There are no name most used than one but simply "Valencia". I gave external references about it, so this information should be included. The argument about "Levante", "Regne de València" etc can be taken in count if we're discussing about the name in Spanish or in Catalan, but not in English, and these names not only have a very-very minority usage, but are also discouraged because these are vague concepts.
- And about the name of "Catalan", I don't understand neither that you can take in count the legal/political reasons to use Valencian instead of Catalan, but you aren't taking in count that the name "Valencian" in English is not used to refer Catalan. In Spanish case, there are several legal and political reasons to use "Castilian" instead of "Spanish", but you prefer to despise these reasons because "Castilian" isn't being used to refer Spanish. I think that the last version I've left was more neutral about this topic, putting the native name in each language, but respecting English usage. --Joanot Martorell ✉ 17:21, 19 February 2007 (UTC)
- It is discouraging to see that, despite a call to be cooperative and work in the undisputed aspects of the article, there is still people who seem obsessed to go back in circles with the same controversy arising topics. You are one of these users who come back again and again with the same issues instead of, for example, doing some translation effort like Maurice27 or myself. You are perfectly free to choose your topics but then please don't whine if you are labeled as a Catalanist POV pushing.
- As for the names issue, I think you are being a bit optimistic about the English usage of Comunidad Valenciana, I mean, these are not words frequently used in English, neither Valencian Autonomous Community nor the others.
- So, from the ones you suggest, I'd challenge you to prove how popular Valencian Country and Land of Valencia are in an English non-wikipedian project. You can spare the effort if you want: they are virtually unknown. Simply "Valencia" is probably more used, but this is as vague or even more as Kingdom of Valencia or Levante -which you don't seem to like- may be.
- In the lead section, since this is an obscure subject in English (and a controversial one in Spanish and Valencian) only the official name should be included and so I am reverting back.
- I'd rather not open a silly edit war with the Valencian Community name, but if you want to open a new section with names (out of the lead), I guess that is ok, but before you do that, you must be aware and weigh the controversy this involves and the fact that, possibly, it may not end looking as you wish. It for sure would be much more productive for the article if you translated either ca.wiki or es.wiki Economics section into English. Mountolive | Talk 18:33, 19 February 2007 (UTC)
- Economics added! Maurice27 21:56, 19 February 2007 (UTC)
- Valencian Symbols also added Maurice27 22:14, 19 February 2007 (UTC)
- I'm not sure whether this section is a great idea or not, as it will be soon predated by the "symbol people"...anyway, it might be positive as it would limit the controversy to a particular section instead of the whole article. Mountolive | Talk 22:46, 19 February 2007 (UTC)
- And, as I was getting hungry... I also added Gastronomy. Maurice27 22:35, 19 February 2007 (UTC)
- I see the turrón picture features a brand name (Picó 66), I don't know if this is ok with guidelines and, if not, whether it should be removed...what do you think? Mountolive | Talk 04:03, 20 February 2007 (UTC)
Hey, I see in both es.wiki and ca.wiki a very cool NASA caption of the territory. I tried to "import" it myself to be displayed in the geography section where it belongs nicely but I couldn't. The thing is that I am a 'dummy' with the whole pictures thing and I may be doing something wrong. As I see you have imported a couple images...can you try the same with this one? I think it would look terrific in the Geography section. Thanks, Maurice! Mountolive | Talk 22:46, 19 February 2007 (UTC)- And there's no way to place the flag a bit more apart from the frame? yes...same dummy for templates here! —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Mountolive (talk • contribs) 22:50, 19 February 2007 (UTC).
The satellite image is added(You're welcome) and the flag is now better looking. The problem was the flag was too long. I uploaded another one. About the satellite picture, mountolive, you have to take the spanish description (Imagen:Land of Valencia, NASA satellite image.jpg) and just erase the "N" in bold to have a suitable picture in english wikipedia. Maurice27 23:09, 19 February 2007 (UTC)- Ahhh, that makes sense, thanks a lot for the very useful hint! Now, about the flag, the colours seem to me more true to the real ones in the older version which I have restored (the new one seems a bit "washed up") even though you are right in that it is too long if compared to the original. The best thing would be to keep this one but get it a bit more centered, but I guess is not possible due to some...unknown for me technical detail :D Mountolive | Talk 23:13, 19 February 2007 (UTC)
- I changed the older version flag to the correct Flag ratio: 2:3. The colours are still the sames as it is also a PNG and not a GIF like my previous try. let me know your impressions Maurice27 23:48, 19 February 2007 (UTC)
- My impressions is that you are being of great help with the article now and I thank you for that. The flag is perfectly fine now. Thanks!
- I changed the older version flag to the correct Flag ratio: 2:3. The colours are still the sames as it is also a PNG and not a GIF like my previous try. let me know your impressions Maurice27 23:48, 19 February 2007 (UTC)
Kingdom of Valencia
Hey guys, shouldn't we start translating the Kingdom of Valencia article once for all? I see there is such an article in ca.wiki, es.wiki and fr.wiki which makes it a shame to be redirected to Crown of Aragón when we click on Kingdom of Valencia here. I think this info has more than enough notoriorety to be translated now. Mountolive | Talk 04:29, 20 February 2007 (UTC)
- Agree Physchim62 (talk) 14:49, 20 February 2007 (UTC)
- GO FLIGHT! Maurice27 20:17, 20 February 2007 (UTC)
Why totally disputed?
User:Joanot, would you please explain why you used the Totally Disputed template after making some six or seven edits regardless of my comments above, which you haven't replied yet?
For your names quirk and the rest of your nationalist views I suggest you use "Valencian Symbols" as your playground. Feel free to use this section to display there all your nationalist claims, including your multi-name obsession instead of messing the whole article by displaying that template and the names mess in the very lead, ok? After, if the section is not satisfactory for anyone, the disputed template could be displayed there.
For the moment I am leaving in place the name Catalan for Valencian, I might revert after. I wonder how deep is your knowledge of English as to determine that Valencian is not used in English for the language while you support Land of Valencia which is not acceptable (please look into the archived talk page to see the opinion of a native English speaker referring to Land of Valencia and how laughable he finds that...he might be telling that to you already back in the day, but, apparently, what you don't like to hear, it doesn't exist for you and you just remove it). I might revert to Valencian because that's the name used in the Valencian Autonomous Community, both legally and popularly: it goes without saying that pushing for Catalan again and again is POV, specially if, as I said before (do you really read any of these comments?) when you go to the Valencian article, it is clearly stated that is a Catalan dialect.
A few sections have been translated so far from other languages wikipedias and your only "contribution" so far has been change de names and delete "See also: Economy of Spain". What's your problem with getting a more enlarged info with more statistics and general overview in that other article?
It would be nice if don't limit your contributions here only to names: please feel free to do something productive and enlarge content and facts which are undisputed: your País Valencià would be proud of you. Mountolive | Talk 17:21, 20 February 2007 (UTC) ps. One of the many ways you could start a more productive stage would be translating the Kingdom of Valencia article.
pss. By the way, your POV pushing altering the timely order of wikiprojects by placing the Catalan Countries wikiproject before the Spanish one (which was previous) is noted as well.
- It's very easy to understand: I gave external references of names used in English, the only one requisit to add information in Misplaced Pages (see WP:VERIFY). You haven't given any external reference, only POV. If "Land of Valencia" is laughable for you, I respect your personal POV, but it's used by official government in English, as you can see in given external references. And it's a common sense that the lead article must start with the name in English in an Encyclopaedia in English. You have no reason to omit this information, these names aren't incorrect, are being used, are in English, and are supported by external references.
- In the other hand, the "See also" links is usually included in briefly info about some topic and the link gives you further, extended, and detalied information about this topic, a "main article". If here exist Economics of the Land of Valencia, it could be the "see also" link. Economics of Spain is not the "main article" here but for Spain. About the language, I know that Valencian is a group of varieties of Occidental dialect of Catalan, but it's not enough important reason to call it in English Valencian to the whole language. In EEUU page there isn't referring their language as "American English", and in UK there isn't neither referring their language as "British English", but both are referring simply as "English". And the official Valencian linguistic academy stated very very-very clear that Valencian is Catalan, so there's no problem to call it Catalan, altough they say "valencià" when speaking in Catalan:
- "és un fet que a Espanya hi ha dos denominacions igualment legals per a designar esta llengua: la de valencià, establida en l'Estatut d'Autonomia de la Comunitat Valenciana, i la de català, reconeguda en els Estatuts d'Autonomia de Catalunya i les Illes Balears"
- Rough translation: "it's factual that in Spain there are two legal denominations used to refer this language: "valencià", stablished in the Statute of Autonomy of Land of Valencia, and Catalan, recognized by the Statutes of Autonomy of Catalonia and the Balearic Islands" source:
- It ins't telling about dialects, but referring to one language. In English, "Catalan" is mainly and more commonly used to refer to this language than Valencian, in the same case of Spanish and Castillian. And yes, this term is also used in English (see wikt:Castillian), but Spanish is more commonly. And last, about the flag, it's legal and official here that the proportions used for the flag is 1:2. See the photo of the Torre dels Serrans in the article, or any phoyo of the Generalitat Palace tower. It shows clearly 1:2.
- It's totally disputed because any external reference is given to made the changes that you and Maurice are doing across the entire article. --Joanot Martorell ✉ 10:29, 22 February 2007 (UTC)
- Yes, we really need references to say that Horchata is made in valencia and that there is a lot of tourism there in summertime...
- About the flag, giving the fact you don't want to inform yourself before posting or reverting, read this: "the flag of the Comunidad Valenciana is defined in the Organic Law 5/82 of July 1st 1982, published in the Boletín Oficial del Estado number 164: Article 5, 1: "The traditional flag of the CV is made up of four red stripes on a yellow field crowned over a blue band by the hoist." 2. "A Law of the Cortes Valencianas (the autonomous parliament) may determine the heraldical symbols of the Community which shall contain those (arms) of the provinces of Castellón, Valencia and Alicante, and its incorporation to the flag over the stripes". The drawing with a ratio of 2:3, the precious stones are -E-S-E-S- (E: emerald or green oval; S: sapphire or blue quatrefoil; each hyphen would represent a pearl or white circle), from bottom hoist to top. The width of the blue band (including the thin red stripe carrying the jewels) is about 1/5th of the fly.".
- In addition, Flag Ratios:
- British flags have a 1:2 ratio (United Kingdom, Australia, Bahamas, Canada, Ireland and with the little correction of 10:19 United States and of course Liberia);
- French flags have a 2:3 ratio (France, Italy, Cameroon, Ivory Coast, Algeria, Spain and the most of Latin-American flags);
- Will you still deny that YOUR flag is not just another way to declare Valencia as non-spanish territory? Maybe now we should talk about the "commonwealth of british valencia"... Now, With proofs (law citacion included), let's see how long it takes for you to change it again, for who-knows-which reason. Maurice27 23:48, 22 February 2007 (UTC)
Add template
I want to propose to add the template {{Catalan-speaking World}}. I think it is a solution in the middle between adding {{Catalan-speaking world}} and not putting anything. It is also respectfull with the name of the language in Valencia. Hope this can be a good solution for everybody.--Xtv - (my talk) - (que dius que què?) 13:10, 21 February 2007 (UTC)
- It was nice to propose it. Adding an explanation, even nicer. But Joanot already included it in the article (without explaining why BTW... only a short "Adding {Catalan-speaking World}". And he accuses Mountolive and myself to "make changes across the entire article without references"... Anyway, Xtv, thanks for proposing and not imposing. Sincere regards, Maurice27 23:57, 22 February 2007 (UTC)
- Are you sure Catalan is the only official in Andorra? I thought that French and Spanish are also official, but I may be wrong anyway. My only objection is that, to honour the truth, it must read "Catalan is called there Valencian", without the "also" as virtually no one calls Catalan other name than Valencian there. Mountolive | Talk 09:12, 24 February 2007 (UTC)
- Catalan is the only official language of Andorra .
- Regarding the Valencian situation, I agree with Mountolive: "Catalan is called there Valencian" is a proper explanation.
- When a Sevilian guy says he's talking "en andalú" nobody believes he's claiming for a different language than Spanish, ain't?
- --Casaforra (parlem-ne) 11:35, 24 February 2007 (UTC)
- Casaforra don't forget to mention that, to honour the truth, in Balears they speak majorcan, ibicenc, menorcan... not catalan, so you better make the changes in all the places. Maurice27 12:14, 24 February 2007 (UTC)