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Terry Pearce

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Terry Pearce (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View log | edits since nomination)

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Disambiguation pages consisting solely of non-notable individuals, in violation of WP:NOTDIRECTORY which says disambiguation pages are Disambiguation pages (such as John Smith) are not intended to be complete listings of every person named John Smith—just the notable ones. The page was previously kept on the basis that the text at NOTDIRECTORY was out of line with community norms, but as attempts to change that text have failed such arguments are no longer appropriate.

Arthur Harley (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) BilledMammal (talk) 05:50, 26 October 2022 (UTC)

• Note: This discussion has been included in the deletion sorting lists for the following topics: People and Disambiguations. BilledMammal (talk) 05:50, 26 October 2022 (UTC)
• Keep (as Harley dab drafter), this is very silly. WP:DABMENTION is a very well-held guideline and it cannot be voided thanks to a discussion at NOT which resulted (2 hours ago) in no consensus. Surely a consensus for eliminating the guideline has to eventuate first? J947 † 06:13, 26 October 2022 (UTC)

  Per WP:POLCON, when a policy disagrees with a guideline we follow the policy. BilledMammal (talk) 06:26, 26 October 2022 (UTC)

  I can't be bothered, but can someone make a VPP RfC on this? There were obviously problems that bore out in that hellish RfC in having it at WT:NOT. To void a guideline as well established as DABMENTION through a stray sentence added without consensus and upheld by a no consensus RfC chocker full with miscommunication is nonsense. Especially when the guideline was solidly upheld in a concurrent RfC. Also – it's not the normal conflict that the guidance at PAG is meant to cover for; this is a major policy oversimplifying an esoteric MOS aspect. J947 † 07:00, 26 October 2022 (UTC)

  In that concurrent RfC there was support for a change, just not the specific change proposed. If you want to open another discussion on reconciling NOTDIRECTORY and DABMENTION you are welcome to do so (keeping in mind WP:FORUMSHOPPING and that forty editors !voted in the RfC at WT:NOT), but until a consensus is produced WP:POLCON instructs us to follow the policy. BilledMammal (talk) 07:18, 26 October 2022 (UTC)

• Keep, borderline speedy, as these are disambiguation pages for which the disambiguated topic clearly meet WP:DABMENTION. A reader who searches for one of these names may be looking for one of the listed topics, and will be taken to the appropriate Misplaced Pages article containing the information that we have on that topic. BD2412 T 02:32, 27 October 2022 (UTC)

  WP:DABMENTION isn't relevant, per WP:POLCON which tells us that WP:NOTDIRECTORY takes precedence. However, WP:DABMENTION doesn't support these articles either, as it requires that the topic is discussed within another article.

  Of the Terry Pearce's, none are discussed within the article; they are only included in lists.

  Of the Arthur Harley's one, the politician, could be argued to be discussed, but we can't have a disambiguation page with only one entry. BilledMammal (talk) 08:08, 27 October 2022 (UTC)

  Where in WP:DABMENTION does it require more than inclusion in a list to consider the term discussed in the article? The only guidance offered there is that: "If the topic is not mentioned in the other article, that article should not be linked to in the disambiguation page, since linking to it would not help readers find information about the sought topic". This appears to indicate that mention is sufficient discussion. Similarly, WP:NOTDIRECTORY stating that this is "not intended to be complete listings of every person named John Smith" is not in conflict with including a name notable enough to be in the encyclopedia. There is, therefore, no conflict with the policy at all, which is after all aimed at helping readers. BD2412 T 03:08, 28 October 2022 (UTC)

  The definition of discussed is "to present in detail for examination or consideration". If a mention was sufficient then it would need to say mentioned within another article rather than discussed within another article.

  The sentence from WP:NOTDIRECTORY that you partially quoted finishes by saying just the notable ones, with a link to WP:N. It's WP:WIKILAWYERING to argue that a sentence that says "notable" (which has a standard definition on Misplaced Pages) and links to WP:N means anything different than meets the notability criteria. BilledMammal (talk) 04:03, 28 October 2022 (UTC)

  The clarifying portion of WP:DABMENTION does say "mentioned". Since this is the practice that has been followed for years and years, it's unlikely anything else is intended. As for the notability criteria, did you think Misplaced Pages articles were just full of non-notable trivia? Obviously, if things needed to be independently notable to be mentioned in a list, then we wouldn't have lists containing anything at all that was not an article. For example, we would need to remove most of the short stories in the F. Scott Fitzgerald bibliography, because they are not independently notable. BD2412 T 04:48, 28 October 2022 (UTC)

  No part of WP:DABMENTION says that a mention is sufficient; it says that links may be included if the topic is discussed, and links should not be included if the topic is mentioned. The latter doesn't clarify the former in a way that expands the links that may be included. However, per WP:POLCON WP:DABMENTION is not relevant.

  The relevant sentence at WP:NOTDIRECTORY only applies to disambiguation pages. It has no relevance to lists like those at F. Scott Fitzgerald bibliography. BilledMammal (talk) 05:03, 28 October 2022 (UTC)

  Line 1 of WP:NOTDIRECTORY also specifically cites WP:LISTCRITERIA. A disambiguation page is obviously a list. BD2412 T 06:30, 28 October 2022 (UTC)

• Delete. DABs should not be indiscriminate directories of search results. By that logic every single name held by two or more people mentioned anywhere on wikipedia would require its own page. Are all DAB creators watchlisting every article they link from a DAB to make sure all the non-standalone entries are still discussed on their respective pages? Are they personally checking each new DAB entry to make sure they're not PROMO deletion end-run-arounds or BLPVIOs? JoelleJay (talk) 01:18, 29 October 2022 (UTC)
  • @JoelleJay: I can't speak to all disambiguation pages, but I personally checked all of the links on Terry Pearce and Arthur Harley, and all of these links are likely to persist unless there is such a major upheaval at Misplaced Pages that we are no longer allowed to list verifiable Olympic athletes and coaches, verifiable competitors in other highly notable international sports competitions, or verifiable runner-up candidates in national elections. There may be disambiguation page entries that should be deleted on such a rationale, but not on these two pages in particular. BD2412 T 01:33, 29 October 2022 (UTC)

    I don't see how your interpretation of "discussed" would allow for deleting any DAB entry to a verifiable mention. JoelleJay (talk) 01:52, 29 October 2022 (UTC)

    • If something is verifiable and notable enough to be included in Misplaced Pages as part of a list, such as a list of Olympians representing a particular country in a particular sport, why would we not inform the reader that a person by that name (the one for whom they might be searching) can be found in that list? Probably the most common instance of these links occurs, by the way, with links to albums containing songs of the same name, which have also been around since the beginning of Misplaced Pages. It has always been the intent of the project to provide guidance to readers with questions like these. BD2412 T 02:07, 29 October 2022 (UTC)

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