Revision as of 00:13, 3 January 2023 editAcroterion (talk | contribs)Autopatrolled, Administrators232,488 edits Restored revision 1125511359 by Zero0000 (talk): RvTags: Twinkle Undo← Previous edit | Revision as of 10:55, 23 January 2023 edit undo2003:e4:af0e:5f01:3c14:8034:6e0:5b33 (talk) →New book: new sectionTag: New topicNext edit → | ||
Line 66: | Line 66: | ||
:::: There is also no support in Victoria Woeste's "Henry Ford's War on the Jews" for Ford providing the Protocols to Hitler. Leaving Ford aside, the idea that the Protocols gave Hitler the idea to kill all the Jews was the title thesis of Norman Cohn's "Warrant for Genocide" but modern historians like Richard Levy do not buy it. ]<sup><small>]</small></sup> 05:53, 30 November 2022 (UTC) | :::: There is also no support in Victoria Woeste's "Henry Ford's War on the Jews" for Ford providing the Protocols to Hitler. Leaving Ford aside, the idea that the Protocols gave Hitler the idea to kill all the Jews was the title thesis of Norman Cohn's "Warrant for Genocide" but modern historians like Richard Levy do not buy it. ]<sup><small>]</small></sup> 05:53, 30 November 2022 (UTC) | ||
:::::] This is settled, as per the above comments. What follows is a foruming closing note, not intended to open so much as closew the discussion. Psychologically, the fact that a major industrialist used his resources to promote the Protocol fantasy certainly would have influenced Hitler, who had Ford's photograph on his desk. But the idea that genocide was practicable, i.e, that countries could get away with it, and any controversy would blow over, was in the air in Hitler's youth, and later 'maturity', regardless of the Protocols. The ] genocide that executed General Lothar von Trotta's 'extermination order' (''Vernichtungsbefehl''), itself imitating what Belgium's king Leopold carried out in the Congo, was covered euphemistically in the German press, as was the Armenian genocide. Several core people, including military officers and scientists experimenting on race (Mengele's teacher) in the Herero campaign later rose to important roles in the Third Reich. The ] in the Ukraine iun the 30s only confirmed the principle at a time when, to get round the Versailles limitations on Germany's military, Germany and the Soviet Union had a secret pact enabling the former to train in that area, etc.etc. It's an old rule in history that what 'exceptionally' one can get away with by loosening civilized rules, eventually comes home to roost in the homeland: if we can get away with massive infrastructural devastation in Syria without widespread rage, why not also the Ukraine?] (]) 10:02, 30 November 2022 (UTC) | :::::] This is settled, as per the above comments. What follows is a foruming closing note, not intended to open so much as closew the discussion. Psychologically, the fact that a major industrialist used his resources to promote the Protocol fantasy certainly would have influenced Hitler, who had Ford's photograph on his desk. But the idea that genocide was practicable, i.e, that countries could get away with it, and any controversy would blow over, was in the air in Hitler's youth, and later 'maturity', regardless of the Protocols. The ] genocide that executed General Lothar von Trotta's 'extermination order' (''Vernichtungsbefehl''), itself imitating what Belgium's king Leopold carried out in the Congo, was covered euphemistically in the German press, as was the Armenian genocide. Several core people, including military officers and scientists experimenting on race (Mengele's teacher) in the Herero campaign later rose to important roles in the Third Reich. The ] in the Ukraine iun the 30s only confirmed the principle at a time when, to get round the Versailles limitations on Germany's military, Germany and the Soviet Union had a secret pact enabling the former to train in that area, etc.etc. It's an old rule in history that what 'exceptionally' one can get away with by loosening civilized rules, eventually comes home to roost in the homeland: if we can get away with massive infrastructural devastation in Syria without widespread rage, why not also the Ukraine?] (]) 10:02, 30 November 2022 (UTC) | ||
== New book == | |||
I suggest to add the following book to Further Reading: | |||
Hagemeister, Michael (2022): ''The Perennial Conspiracy Theory: Reflections on the History of “The Protocols of the Elders of Zion”'', London, New York: Routledge. <nowiki>ISBN 978-1-03-206015-6</nowiki>. ] (]) 10:55, 23 January 2023 (UTC) |
Revision as of 10:55, 23 January 2023
Skip to table of contents |
This is the talk page for discussing improvements to the The Protocols of the Elders of Zion article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
|
Find sources: Google (books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL |
Archives: 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10Auto-archiving period: 30 days |
The subject of this article is controversial and content may be in dispute. When updating the article, be bold, but not reckless. Feel free to try to improve the article, but don't take it personally if your changes are reversed; instead, come here to the talk page to discuss them. Content must be written from a neutral point of view. Include citations when adding content and consider tagging or removing unsourced information. |
Warning: active arbitration remedies The contentious topics procedure applies to this article. Parts of this article relate to the Arab–Israeli conflict, which is a contentious topic. Furthermore, the following rules apply when editing the parts of the page related to the contentious topic:
Editors who repeatedly or seriously fail to adhere to the purpose of Misplaced Pages, any expected standards of behaviour, or any normal editorial process may be blocked or restricted by an administrator. Editors are advised to familiarise themselves with the contentious topics procedures before editing this page. If it is unclear which parts of the page are related to this contentious topic, the content in question should be marked within the wiki text by an invisible comment. If no comment is present, please ask an administrator for assistance. If in doubt it is better to assume that the content is covered.
|
The Protocols of the Elders of Zion is a former featured article. Please see the links under Article milestones below for its original nomination page (for older articles, check the nomination archive) and why it was removed. | ||||||||||||||||
This article appeared on Misplaced Pages's Main Page as Today's featured article on March 19, 2006. | ||||||||||||||||
| ||||||||||||||||
Current status: Former featured article |
This article has not yet been rated on Misplaced Pages's content assessment scale. It is of interest to multiple WikiProjects. | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Please add the quality rating to the {{WikiProject banner shell}} template instead of this project banner. See WP:PIQA for details.
{{WikiProject banner shell}} template instead of this project banner. See WP:PIQA for details.
{{WikiProject banner shell}} template instead of this project banner. See WP:PIQA for details.
{{WikiProject banner shell}} template instead of this project banner. See WP:PIQA for details.
{{WikiProject banner shell}} template instead of this project banner. See WP:PIQA for details.
{{WikiProject banner shell}} template instead of this project banner. See WP:PIQA for details.
|
This page is not a forum for general discussion about The Protocols of the Elders of Zion. Any such comments may be removed or refactored. Please limit discussion to improvement of this article. You may wish to ask factual questions about The Protocols of the Elders of Zion at the Reference desk. |
view · edit Frequently asked questions
|
Archives |
This page has archives. Sections older than 30 days may be automatically archived by Lowercase sigmabot III when more than 3 sections are present. |
Forgery for over 100 years..now a fabrication...even though parts of it aren't
Fabrication implies 100% of the book is made-up, but the description, on the same page no less, literally says the opposite. 2601:140:8400:36C0:429:D241:4DFF:B9B1 (talk) 22:10, 25 October 2022 (UTC)
- Fake, fabrication, forgery, counterfeit, falsification, sham, fraud, hoax, phony, makey-uppy - whatever word you want to use, it's a vile antisemitic document that is not what it purports to be, and has been used by racists for much too long to create an inaccurate and inflammatory portrait of Jews and Judaism. It's unfortunate -- and depressing -- to think that some people still believe in it even today. Beyond My Ken (talk) 22:57, 25 October 2022 (UTC)
New Book
I suggest to add the following book to Further Reading:
Hagemeister, Michael (2022): The Perennial Conspiracy Theory: Reflections on the History of “The Protocols of the Elders of Zion”, London, New York: Routledge. ISBN 978-1-03-206015-6.
--Phi (talk) 13:34, 28 November 2022 (UTC)
Henry Ford allegedly gave Hitler a copy of the Protocols while he was in prison and before writing Mein Kampf
I have read two Misplaced Pages articles on the Protocols of the Elders of Zion. Both are full of allegations, research and historical facts. But neither seems to delve into something I cam across recently that it was Henry Ford who allegedly got the Protocols into Hitlers hands while he was in prison and before he wrote Mein Kampf. If true, this would point to the Protocols as being the SOURCE of Hitlers ultimate plan to murder all Jews. i would like to see this information further researched and written up. 2601:1C0:CA01:9240:4DD7:9C90:1573:2C51 (talk) 17:06, 28 November 2022 (UTC)
- You're going to need to provide a source for that.Ford's influence was more probably indirect, through other Germans who were influential with Hitler and who have acknowledged the influence of Ford's publications, such as The International Jew, which was published in German. Please read Henry Ford, The International Jew and The Dearborn Independent for context, as well as our article on Mein Kampf.. Acroterion (talk) 18:05, 28 November 2022 (UTC)
- It's likely the best you'll find will be WP:SYNTHESIS of sources, which isn't going to fly. Was it influential? Probably. The
source
of hisultimate plan
? That's conjecture. If you can find a reliable academic source that makes that assertion, the best you can probably do is to mention it with attribution to the source. ButlerBlog (talk) 18:20, 28 November 2022 (UTC)- I think it's a conflation. Ford was already publishing The International Jew when L. Fry introduced him to the Protocols (this would be 1920 or so.) Hitler's time in jail was 1924, and he certainly was familiar with Ford's writings by then -- and that might be where the idea that Ford "got the Protocols into Hitler's hands". --jpgordon 19:55, 28 November 2022 (UTC)
- According to Ullrich, Ford's pamphlet "The International Jew" was published in German in 1922, and Hitler "allegedly" told a reporter that he regarded Ford as "an inspiration". There is no mention in either Ullrich or Kershaw of Ford providing Hitler with either the pamphlet or the Protocols, which was published in German in 1919 and was widely disseminated in the German antisemitic community.(Kershaw, v.1, p.153) Hitler first mentions it in notes for a meeting and a speech in August 1921 (Ullrich, v.1, p.103). I agree that the claim that Ford provided Hitler with the Protocols is most likely a conflation for which there is no evidence; and certainly Hitler was aware of the Protocols before he was imprisoned. Beyond My Ken (talk) 05:07, 29 November 2022 (UTC)
- There is also no support in Victoria Woeste's "Henry Ford's War on the Jews" for Ford providing the Protocols to Hitler. Leaving Ford aside, the idea that the Protocols gave Hitler the idea to kill all the Jews was the title thesis of Norman Cohn's "Warrant for Genocide" but modern historians like Richard Levy do not buy it. Zero 05:53, 30 November 2022 (UTC)
- 2601:1C0:CA01:9240:4DD7:9C90:1573:2C51 This is settled, as per the above comments. What follows is a foruming closing note, not intended to open so much as closew the discussion. Psychologically, the fact that a major industrialist used his resources to promote the Protocol fantasy certainly would have influenced Hitler, who had Ford's photograph on his desk. But the idea that genocide was practicable, i.e, that countries could get away with it, and any controversy would blow over, was in the air in Hitler's youth, and later 'maturity', regardless of the Protocols. The Herero genocide that executed General Lothar von Trotta's 'extermination order' (Vernichtungsbefehl), itself imitating what Belgium's king Leopold carried out in the Congo, was covered euphemistically in the German press, as was the Armenian genocide. Several core people, including military officers and scientists experimenting on race (Mengele's teacher) in the Herero campaign later rose to important roles in the Third Reich. The Holodomor in the Ukraine iun the 30s only confirmed the principle at a time when, to get round the Versailles limitations on Germany's military, Germany and the Soviet Union had a secret pact enabling the former to train in that area, etc.etc. It's an old rule in history that what 'exceptionally' one can get away with by loosening civilized rules, eventually comes home to roost in the homeland: if we can get away with massive infrastructural devastation in Syria without widespread rage, why not also the Ukraine?Nishidani (talk) 10:02, 30 November 2022 (UTC)
- There is also no support in Victoria Woeste's "Henry Ford's War on the Jews" for Ford providing the Protocols to Hitler. Leaving Ford aside, the idea that the Protocols gave Hitler the idea to kill all the Jews was the title thesis of Norman Cohn's "Warrant for Genocide" but modern historians like Richard Levy do not buy it. Zero 05:53, 30 November 2022 (UTC)
- According to Ullrich, Ford's pamphlet "The International Jew" was published in German in 1922, and Hitler "allegedly" told a reporter that he regarded Ford as "an inspiration". There is no mention in either Ullrich or Kershaw of Ford providing Hitler with either the pamphlet or the Protocols, which was published in German in 1919 and was widely disseminated in the German antisemitic community.(Kershaw, v.1, p.153) Hitler first mentions it in notes for a meeting and a speech in August 1921 (Ullrich, v.1, p.103). I agree that the claim that Ford provided Hitler with the Protocols is most likely a conflation for which there is no evidence; and certainly Hitler was aware of the Protocols before he was imprisoned. Beyond My Ken (talk) 05:07, 29 November 2022 (UTC)
- I think it's a conflation. Ford was already publishing The International Jew when L. Fry introduced him to the Protocols (this would be 1920 or so.) Hitler's time in jail was 1924, and he certainly was familiar with Ford's writings by then -- and that might be where the idea that Ford "got the Protocols into Hitler's hands". --jpgordon 19:55, 28 November 2022 (UTC)
New book
I suggest to add the following book to Further Reading: Hagemeister, Michael (2022): The Perennial Conspiracy Theory: Reflections on the History of “The Protocols of the Elders of Zion”, London, New York: Routledge. ISBN 978-1-03-206015-6. 2003:E4:AF0E:5F01:3C14:8034:6E0:5B33 (talk) 10:55, 23 January 2023 (UTC)
Categories:- Misplaced Pages controversial topics
- Misplaced Pages former featured articles
- Featured articles that have appeared on the main page
- Featured articles that have appeared on the main page once
- Old requests for peer review
- All unassessed articles
- B-Class Jewish history-related articles
- High-importance Jewish history-related articles
- WikiProject Jewish history articles
- B-Class Book articles
- WikiProject Books articles
- B-Class Russia articles
- High-importance Russia articles
- High-importance B-Class Russia articles
- B-Class Russia (language and literature) articles
- Language and literature of Russia task force articles
- B-Class Russia (history) articles
- History of Russia task force articles
- B-Class Russia (religion) articles
- Religion in Russia task force articles
- B-Class Russia (demographics and ethnography) articles
- Demographics and ethnography of Russia task force articles
- WikiProject Russia articles
- B-Class politics articles
- Low-importance politics articles
- WikiProject Politics articles
- B-Class Alternative views articles
- Mid-importance Alternative views articles
- WikiProject Alternative views articles
- B-Class Skepticism articles
- High-importance Skepticism articles
- WikiProject Skepticism articles