| Revision as of 09:26, 10 March 2007 edit86.56.0.113 (talk) →Jewish ancestry?← Previous edit | Revision as of 12:22, 10 March 2007 edit undoClawson (talk | contribs)7,011 edits →Jewish ancestry?: rp anonNext edit → | ||
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| Nevertheless - what does Jewish ancestry mean? (by the way the definition that Jews are a race is a definition the Nazis used - this may be true in some aspects, but it is also posible that it was a religios thing with Richthofen and in this case if he or his parents changed the religion, the fact is not worth mentioning) Did he had a Jewish Grandma? Or was it even further ancestry. Then why don't you say in every third article about a person from Isralel that he/she had partial German ancestry? This would also be true - because there was much intermarriage in history. If the Jewish ancestry is further away than to his Grandparents this "fact" should be deleted fast. And for sure forums are no source - but you have also be careful with books. There are also books existing which denial of Holocaust and nearly no one would take that serios. You should think about he fact that the book was writen short after the war and that the only sentence stated is wrong or at the least tentential (Richthofen would not for sure have been killed by the Nazis if he had only partial Jewish ancestry and had been a "Volk"-hero - in his case they would most likely tried to cover up his ancestry - there are many examples for this).] 09:26, 10 March 2007 (UTC) | Nevertheless - what does Jewish ancestry mean? (by the way the definition that Jews are a race is a definition the Nazis used - this may be true in some aspects, but it is also posible that it was a religios thing with Richthofen and in this case if he or his parents changed the religion, the fact is not worth mentioning) Did he had a Jewish Grandma? Or was it even further ancestry. Then why don't you say in every third article about a person from Isralel that he/she had partial German ancestry? This would also be true - because there was much intermarriage in history. If the Jewish ancestry is further away than to his Grandparents this "fact" should be deleted fast. And for sure forums are no source - but you have also be careful with books. There are also books existing which denial of Holocaust and nearly no one would take that serios. You should think about he fact that the book was writen short after the war and that the only sentence stated is wrong or at the least tentential (Richthofen would not for sure have been killed by the Nazis if he had only partial Jewish ancestry and had been a "Volk"-hero - in his case they would most likely tried to cover up his ancestry - there are many examples for this).] 09:26, 10 March 2007 (UTC) | ||
| :Nowhere does the article claim anything about the Nazis' intentions to kill him had he survived the war. I have no idea where you're getting that straw man argument from, but your anti-Semitic tone is not appreciated.--''']]''' 12:22, 10 March 2007 (UTC) | |||
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An event in this article is a April 21 selected anniversary (may be in HTML comment)
Portrait taken from http://www.awm.gov.au/1918/people/38931.htm
The image seems ro be copyrighted :
http://www.awm.gov.au/services/image_sales/user_photo_art.htm
- According to a discussion I once had in the Village Pump, other guys recommended me that the process of digitalizing an image does not allow it to be copyrighted - the image is old, and the person who scanned it didnt make any creative effort. Yves
- Although creative effort is required to create copyright in many jurisdictions, it is not the case in all. The UK, for example, simply requires that some work had to be done (The "sweat of the brow" test), not that it be creative work. The example used in the seminar where I learnt this (run by copyright lawyers!) was of creating a list by extracting names according to a rule from the (printed) telephone directory. It merely requires effort, not creative effort. Scanning, which may involve selecting material, scanning it, manipulation of the scanned image to rectify and/or crop it and possibly descreening, contrast/colour enhancement and so on certainly qualifies. So, whether or not copyright subsists in a scanned image of an original out of copyright depends on the legal jusridiction in which it was done!--APRCooper 22:48, 25 December 2005 (UTC)
When You look at the German version, You can find a different picture which I like even better. Perhaps somebody can change the picture, I am not skilled enough to do that.
'* This is controversal - was it really just the tails?
By the way, concerning the Red Baron's story, there are many divergences. Most of them related to imprecision, but at least one is controversal indeed - Who really killed the Red Baron? These issues, incluing also what some say - that he flew mostly with the Abatros planes, not Fokkers - may, and probably will, be treated in a later update.
"der rote kampfflieger"
I have removed the alias "der rote Kampfflieger". In 15 years, I have never ever come across this term where it was meant to refer to the red baron. In fact, the term would rather be associated with a red plane than the red baron.
Also, the term "Kampfflieger", while basically correct, is one of those german words that would never appear in any official document or encyclopedia because it can be considered low-level german and therefore hints at poor speaking skills of the person who is using it (no offense).
"der rote Baron", the red baron, is the name he is known by. Any other terms, while they might exist, will be very uncommon at best and therefore do not belong here.
LoneWolfJack 23:34, 19 June 2006 (UTC)
- Then I guess in 15 years you have never read Richthofen's own AUTOBIOGRAPHY which he happened to title Der Rote Kampfflieger ? Ckaiserca 23:27, 17 September 2006 (UTC)
- The book you are referring to was written 90 years ago. ninety! Also, like you pointed out correctly, the title was chosen by himself, and it is quite possible that he was using that title to actually refer to the plane, not himself, even though he probably knew that everyone would associate this title with him. I will not display the same arrogance as you and just change the article back, assuming I can be nothing but right. But you should consider that the term "der rote Kampfflieger" will make every german's skin crawl. Also, it is not unlikely that a german confronted with this title will not initially know what you are talking about, while the term "red baron" will instantly hit home. LoneWolfJack 03:17, 23 September 2006 (UTC)
- Putting the title of Richtofen's own autobiograhy in an article about him is "arrogance?" That's a new one! Arrogance to me would be making a comment about the poor speaking skills of someone who would use a term like Der Rote Kampfflieger when Richthofen himself used it to title his own autobiography! Have you read the article about him on the German Wkipedia? Look for Der Rote Kampfflieger. It's in there! I don't think it's making their skin crawl. BTW. Take note of my name. See the "Kaiser" in there? Skin's still in the same place. . .Ckaiserca 18:35, 27 September 2006 (UTC)
wrong person
Frieda von Richthofen is not Manfred von Richthofen's sister. You were refering to Else von Richthofen.
- She was his distant cousin. I made the correction in the article. Postdlf 11:53 4 Apr 2004 (EST)
Lincoln College, Oxford
According to Lincoln College, Oxford, Richthofen was a distinguished alumnus of the College. The article doesn't mention when he was at Oxford. Does anyone know? Tonusperegrinus 19:55, 17 Apr 2004 (UTC)
- Couldn't find anything about Richthofen at the Lincoln College website, or on Google in connection with “Lincoln College” or “Oxford University”, except Misplaced Pages Rip-offs and Oxford University press books about him. -- chris_73 08:31, 21 Apr 2004 (UTC)
- I couldn't find anything on this either. For one thing this implies that Richthofen spoke English. Has anyone seen any reference for that? Cjrother 03:05, 19 May 2005 (UTC)
- It would not be at all unusual for a German aristocrat to attend an English university. It is certainly not unusual for one to speak English!--Ckaiserca 02:47, 15 November 2005 (UTC)
- I'm aware that it wouldn't be unusual but I don't think I've ever seen a reference to Richtofen speaking English or for that matter going to Oxford. Does anyone have any references on his attending Oxford or should we remove this from the article? --Cjrother 21:09, 22 June 2006 (UTC)
- It turns out that there was a Richthofen at Oxford, but it was not Manfred von Richtofen. It was in fact a 7th cousin of his! The Lincoln von Richthofen was Baron Wilhelm Friedrich Adam Lothar Max von Richthofen (1888-1962). He matriculated in 1913, so only spent one year in Oxford. According to Internet sources, his battels (accounts of Oxford college, especially for provisions.) bill was the highest for that year.Ckaiserca 15:57, 24 November 2006 (UTC)
Who Killed the Red Baron?
NOVA did a story, "Who Killed the Red Baron?" in 2003. (spoiler coming up) It gives about 40 minutes of biography and 15 minutes of forensics. They explain that the bullet had to come from a distance - about 600 yards away - for the autopsy to show the path of the bullet. Further, its trajectory from below the right armpit up, exiting below the left nipple indicates a shot from the ground, right side. Buie and Evans, "by their own testimony,... were firing face on to the triplane so they could not have hit von Richthofen on the right hand side." Based on gunner position, timing and trajectory, NOVA credited Popkin, albeit with (IMO way too much of) a nod to uncertainty. -- Ke4roh 01:33, 21 May 2004 (UTC)
Popkin is the most likely candidate by far, but there were so many Australian soldiers firing that no one can say for certain that it was him.
Also, I can't find any reference to Popkin or any other Australian being officially recogised, although the newly-formed RAF credited Brown with the kill. Grant65 (Talk) 05:46, May 23, 2004 (UTC)
The wording of the paragraph is now very confusing IMO. Was the baron turning his plane or merely turning around in his seat? Grant65 (Talk) 09:56, Dec 20, 2004 (UTC)
I thought the forensics on the NOVA program was pretty solid. Is there not a link or article on the PBS site about this? Wjbean 01:34, 2005 Apr 21 (UTC)
The section of the article titled "Who fired the fatal shot?" is confusingly written -- It would read better if we simply cut and pasted in this section of the "discussion" page. 65.91.82.62 01:27, 6 January 2007 (UTC)
I believe something else. I recently saw a Discovery School documentary abou the same subject and it, very detailed, stated that Evans fired the bullet. There was a lot of forensic evidence shown and a historian's account who wrote a book on this subject.
- The Discovery Channel must have this thing on high rotation! It seems to be based on the false premises that (1) Richthofen was shot from close range and (2) that Popkin only fired once. the PBS documentary, which came out after the Discovery program, supported a long range shot from Popkin on the baron's right hand side. The logic is explained in this article. It's difficult to see how Evans could have managed it. Or Buie, they were both in the same unit. I suggest you read Dr Geoffrey Miller's article, as linked from the article, which goes through the technicalities of the scenarios in detail. Grant65 | Talk 03:51, 19 January 2007 (UTC)
current Manfred von Richthofen
There is a Manfred von Richthofen who's the president of the Deutscher Sportbund. Is he related? Maybe that's someone to put on the page under Relatives of note. Really the only thing I've found for him is: http://www.dsb.de/index.php?id=535. BigBen212 21:40, 20 May 2005 (UTC)
--Ricardo Dirani 5 July 2005 18:58 (UTC) Suzanne Richtofen is a granddaughter of his who killed her parents, was in jail and is currently waiting judgement. That could be a "relative of note"...
Ricardo, I don't believe RIchtofen had a child. This women couldn't possibly be a granddaughter. I read a biography on RIchtofen a number of years ago, that speculated that he may have fathered a baby boy, but this was only speculatory.
There's a BBC Article on this. 203.199.207.3 08:08, 23 July 2006 (UTC)
Unsolved History Season 1 - Death of The Red Baron
In the Discovery Channel Series Unsolved History they pretty much rule out Bassett Popkin based on his own writings and a hand drawn map where he states that he did not shoot at Richthofen's plane at an angle that would have caused the fatal wound . The program gives the credit to Australian machine gunner Snowy Evans. There is more about the program to be found in this History News Network Article from the Ottawa Citizen --Ckaiserca 02:07, 15 November 2005 (UTC)
- Hmmm, I've read a lot on this over the years. Evans's claim is barely mentioned, compared to his friend Robert Buie, in most of the literature, although I note that the German Misplaced Pages states that it was Evans who killed Richthofen! However, Popkin was the only one of the machine gunners named who fired at the right time and from the right distance. Grant65 01:12, 16 November 2005 (UTC)
- This is an interesting article, as it suggests that the official original (British) autopsy was flawed. (There were at least two autopsies.) Dr M. Geoffrey Miller, 1998, "The Death of Manfred von Richthofen: Who fired the fatal shot?" Grant65 01:20, 16 November 2005 (UTC)
Inconsistency.
"Von Richthofen then made a hasty but controlled landing...His Fokker was not damaged by the landing"
"Australian soldiers and airmen with the wreckage of von Richthofen's plane"
"The engine from von Richthofen's aircraft is on display...It still bears the damage sustained in that final crash."
This looks like a real problem. DanielCristofani 14:43, 14 December 2005 (UTC)
- The caption on the photograph claims that the damge was done by souvenir hunters, just as an observation. Zerbey 22:59, 12 January 2006 (UTC)
Disambiguation of Denver
I have added the words (Colorado, USA) after the word Denver in the "Relatives of Note" section, mainly because as a Brit, my first thought was of Denver, Norfolk - which is very well known in the UK, for several reasons - heroic drainage engineering (Denver sluice is justly famous), and it is referred to extensively in Dorothy L Sayers' Peter Wimsey books. By the way, the disambiguation page for Denver does the UK one a disservice - it is a small town, not a village.
Errors and deletions
Besides a general cleanup, I have delted two items: the peculiar statement that MvR never took off without receiving a kiss from somone, and explanation of the Oak Leaves to the Pour le Merite, which he did not receive.
I have left intact the legend that the fatally wounded von R landed his aircraft without much damage. There are eye witness accounts stating that the triplane smashed its landing gear but I cannot find them this moment.
Dead Link
Not sure of the proper process, but I deleted a dead link http://www.the-underdogs.org/game.php?id=4845. -nvalley 02:23, 1 May 2006.
The link should've been http://www.the-underdogs.info/game.php?id=4845 . I don't know where to put it though. 203.199.207.3 08:12, 23 July 2006 (UTC)
Help
Education for him?anyone know~Caleb Napier 14:22, 14 May 2006 (UTC)
- Hello. You used the {{helpme}} template. How may we help you? When you have asked your question, please put the template back so we know to check back. Cheers, Tangotango 14:24, 14 May 2006 (UTC)
What about the red barons education!Caleb Napier 14:31, 14 May 2006 (UTC)
- I'm sorry, we can only help newcomers with Misplaced Pages technicalities with the {{helpme}} feature. If you wish to discuss an article with someone, please leave a message on the talk page of the article. Thanks, Tangotango 14:34, 14 May 2006 (UTC)
No,thank youCaleb Napier 14:38, 14 May 2006 (UTC)
- Hi - think {{helpme}} is only used for Misplaced Pages technical problems. If you have any general questions, you just leave comments on the discussion page as you've done. Regarding the Red Baron's education, I remember reading he was being educated in England before the war started, but obviously came back home to Germany when it started. Not sure where I found this info, or what I could refer you to. If I find anything I'll post an update. FranksValli 18:06, 14 May 2006 (UTC)
80 Kills
I think it is more correct to state that von Richtofen was "credited" with 80 kills as that fact cannot be disputed. What is at dispute is whether or not he actually did it - it is even possible he had more than 80 due to the stringency of German claim requirements. The article states that later scholarship can only "prove" 73. Yet his total of 80 is famous. Therefore, the article should state he was officially credited with 80, not that he actually shot down 80, as that is impossible to prove. Not to denigrate his record, but simply to present facts as NPOV as possible.Michael Dorosh 23:01, 3 June 2006 (UTC)
- Incidentally, look at the article on Billy Bishop for use of that type of phrasing. In my opinion, that should be standard for articles on flying aces.Michael Dorosh 23:02, 3 June 2006 (UTC)
Completely agree; 'claimed' air victories rarely tally with 'actual'. This is particularly with the Allied 'scores' where such wooly categories as 'out of Control' and 'driven down' are used. It is something the reader should bear in mind Harryurz 10:58, 20 June 2006 (UTC)
Austrian Air Force- Australian Air Force
I think that you meant Australian Air Force rather than Austrian Air Force, as the Austrians were not an allied air unit. The Australians were the nearest allied air unit.--Mowensdude 07:49, 20 June 2006 (UTC)
- BUT THE AUSTRALIANS FOUGHT ON THE NAZIS SIDE:@ AS IF THEY WOULD HAVE SHOT HIM DOWN THE BRITISH DID!
- What can one say? Australia is not Austria and the Nazis didn't exist in 1918... 8-) Grant65 | Talk 03:45, 17 September 2006 (UTC)
Suzane von Richthofen
Note really relevant here but apparently a great great grand children killed his parent according to this article
The relativeness of the Brazilian von Richthofen family to Red Baron is discussed. It was based on a interview the deceased Manfred gave to the Brazilian TV, but brazilian historians do not agree.
Hero?
"Manfred Albrecht Freiherr von Richthofen is still regarded today as a national hero of Germany." - By who? I've never come across anyone in Germany who does; and while the article technically doesn't say that he is regard a national hero *in* Germany, it sure sounds like. Should be deleted or at least cleared up (with a proper citation), I think. -- Schnee (cheeks clone) 17:28, 17 September 2006 (UTC)
edit by someone else :P
I'm German as well and I don't know anyone who considers him a hero either.
- Of course this is nonsense, most Germans would be hard pressed to mention any "national hero" at all as the concept of national heroes is not very popular in Germany. I think the vast majority of Germans alive today wouldn't even know Richthofen's name. I'm taking out the phrase in question. -- mawa 05:06, 15 October 2006 (UTC)
Popular Culture
The popular culture section was far too long and detailed. If a link exists to an article on a song, movie or video game, there is no need to describe it in detail in this article. There was also a lot of unsourced and speculative stuff, which counts as original research which I've removed. How do we know the Enemy Ace was modelled after the Red Baron? The similarities are obvious, but unless an article can be quoted where the creator admits the similarities were purposeful, we cannot conclude that was his intention.Michael Dorosh 15:21, 24 September 2006 (UTC)
Undamaged Fokker?
In Death section I see: His Fokker was not damaged by the landing. Few lines later I see: The engine from von Richthofen's aircraft is on display in the Imperial War Museum in London as part of the War in the Air Exhibit. It still bears the damage sustained in its final crash.
So was crashed his Fokker or not? Current text does not make sense. (Unsigned comment by User:82.142.75.102.)
- You are right. There was no "crash" and the plane was taken apart by souvenir hunters. I have fixed this and altered the text to reflect the facts. Grant65 | Talk 12:10, 8 November 2006 (UTC)
Jasta 2 /11
I may just be mis-reading, but was his squadron Jasta 2 or Jasta 11? It looks like it's called both in the article. Anyone know? --TheOtherBob 19:48, 13 December 2006 (UTC)
- It was both - he joined as a member of Jasta 2 and then later commanded Jasta 11. See the start of the "Piloting career" section and then the start of "The Flying Circus" section. :) FranksValli 20:06, 13 December 2006 (UTC)
- Ah - that makes perfect sense. Thanks for the help! --TheOtherBob 20:15, 13 December 2006 (UTC)
Rules of air combat?
The article repeatedly suggests that Richthofen devised his maxims of aerial combat. For example: "Richthofen suddenly and inexplicably strayed from several of the strict rules of aerial combat that he himself had devised and obeyed throughout his career." Yet the article also suggests these rules were the Dicta Boelcke, and links to an article stating they were devised by Oswald Boelcke. Very confusing.
Arthur (Roy) Brown's nickname?
It says Arthur Brown's nickname was "Snoopy." Given the Peanuts character that just seems too pat. I cannot find any reference elsewhere for this. Citation?
It's not.....some moron added it in. I attempted to correct it, but on the edit page the name shows up correctly. I've no idea how to correct it.
On the 'red barron pop culture references' page it also states snoopy was the nickname of arthur brown. I don't know myself so I just wanted to point it out.
'Who fired the fatal shot?' section
Two different people (Snowy Evans and Cedric Popkin) are identified as having definetly fired the shot which killed von Richthofen in this section, and a third person (Robert Buie) is identified as a candidate but immediately dismissed. It would be great if someone who is knowledgeable about von Richthofen's death sorted out this section - perhaps by highlighting the fact that all the competing claims have at least a degree of validity and the exact identity of the person who fired the shot will never be known? (unless this isn't the case, of course!). --Nick Dowling 02:48, 6 January 2007 (UTC)
Jewish ancestry?
There appears to be doubt about the authenticity of claims that Richthofen's family was of partial Jewish ancestry. Many say stories that Richthofen was part Jewish are unfounded rumors and there is no evidence to back up the assertion otherwise. See this forum for discussion:
http://www.theaerodrome.com/forum/archive/index.php/t-13753.html
I'll let the reference stand for now, but it would be nice to see some corroboration and further evidence for this detail.
24.113.82.222 08:41, 25 February 2007 (UTC)
- Damned right you'll let the reference stand. It's a book, which is infinitely higher on the list of reliable sources than any Internet forum.--chris.lawson 16:17, 25 February 2007 (UTC)
- I'll agree that Internet forums usually aren't a thing to be taken with much reliability, but theAerodrome's forums do hold some regard when it comes to WWI aviation. There are a few important WWI aviation historians and authors that frequent and contribute to the forum. So don't poo-poo it just because it is an Internet forum. Some of the topics and responses on theAerodrome do hold their own, and do cite a variety sources more often than not. That's just my two cents. Scarlett Lily 23:34, 2 March 2007 (UTC)
- WP:RS is pretty clear about what does and does not constitute a reliable source. Internet forums, no matter their membership, do not meet any definition of "reliable".--chris.lawson 03:35, 3 March 2007 (UTC)
Nevertheless - what does Jewish ancestry mean? (by the way the definition that Jews are a race is a definition the Nazis used - this may be true in some aspects, but it is also posible that it was a religios thing with Richthofen and in this case if he or his parents changed the religion, the fact is not worth mentioning) Did he had a Jewish Grandma? Or was it even further ancestry. Then why don't you say in every third article about a person from Isralel that he/she had partial German ancestry? This would also be true - because there was much intermarriage in history. If the Jewish ancestry is further away than to his Grandparents this "fact" should be deleted fast. And for sure forums are no source - but you have also be careful with books. There are also books existing which denial of Holocaust and nearly no one would take that serios. You should think about he fact that the book was writen short after the war and that the only sentence stated is wrong or at the least tentential (Richthofen would not for sure have been killed by the Nazis if he had only partial Jewish ancestry and had been a "Volk"-hero - in his case they would most likely tried to cover up his ancestry - there are many examples for this).86.56.0.113 09:26, 10 March 2007 (UTC)
- Nowhere does the article claim anything about the Nazis' intentions to kill him had he survived the war. I have no idea where you're getting that straw man argument from, but your anti-Semitic tone is not appreciated.--chris.lawson 12:22, 10 March 2007 (UTC)