Misplaced Pages:Arbitration/Requests/Enforcement: Difference between revisions

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Revision as of 12:06, 3 March 2023 editMarcelus (talk \| contribs)Extended confirmed users9,604 edits →Statement by Gitz: ReplyTag: Reply ← Previous edit		Revision as of 12:07, 3 March 2023 edit undoMarcelus (talk \| contribs)Extended confirmed users9,604 edits →Statement by Marcelus: deleting this response, moved it directly under Gitz statement, trimmed it as far as I can before it started to make no senseTag: 2017 wikitext editor Next edit →
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	:As for ] pls read t/p. In short, using a number of high-quality sources, I proved that the original source of the information in the article made a mistake. (This discussion is a good example of ] and ] on Gitz part btw).		:As for ] pls read t/p. In short, using a number of high-quality sources, I proved that the original source of the information in the article made a mistake. (This discussion is a good example of ] and ] on Gitz part btw).
	:I was responding to all comments and trying to compromise. I changed the attitued after my to apply ] to TrangBellam's edits were ignored. I refused to participate in the new discussions TrangBellam was starting, ignoring the ongoing discussions. ] (]) 12:06, 3 March 2023 (UTC)		:I was responding to all comments and trying to compromise. I changed the attitued after my to apply ] to TrangBellam's edits were ignored. I refused to participate in the new discussions TrangBellam was starting, ignoring the ongoing discussions. ] (]) 12:06, 3 March 2023 (UTC)

	===Statement by Marcelus===
	I am responding to the accusations made by ].
	Gitz presents the situation in an extremely dishonest way. It all started with the removal of an entire section by ] (), which I reverted with comment (): ''Such massive removal of content need to be discussed on a talk page''. And at this point the discussion began. Meanwhile I was trying to complete the factography of the event itself by finding and citing sources ().

	At one point I did a major edit in which, based on sources, I described the fate of two Jewish partisan units that were based near Naliboki, to give context as to why the allegations in the case of one of them (Bielski) are unbelievable, and in the case of the other (Zorin) highly unlikely (). Gitz started undoing my changes, I restored them with the encouragement to take up the discussion on the talk page. The response was to refer to the ] method on my talk page. Reluctantly, but I agreed to their terms and did not undo their edits, instead we started a discussion on the article's talk page. The situation basically repeated itself with my next major edit, in which following the sources provided information on when the allegations of Bielski partisans involvement in the massacre came about () - reference to Nowicki's memoirs.

	Gitz now says that: {{tq\|Marcelus didn't want TrangaBellam to remove this text of theirs mentioning Nowicki and Boradyn and lending some credibility to the fringe theory that the Jews perpetrated the Naliboki massacre. Most of Marcelus's editing is aimed at substantiating that theory. See e.g. this edit reverting my revert of their bold edit on Jewish partisans active in the Naliboki area; see their comment on t/p about that fringe theory being an accepted course of events in historical literature rather than some figment of the imagination of a few crazy nationalists from the Canadian Polish Congress}}.

	But they are ignoring the fact that after TrangaBellam's changes the mention of Nowicki remained (in conversation with me Gitz consistently demanded that it be hidden in a footnote) they didn't voice any concerns towards TrangaBellam. The implication is that if I make the change then I am promoting fringe theory and my changes must be reverted, but when TrangaBellam does it this is not happening. You can see a certain pattern of action here, that Gitz reacts allergically to my changes, demands their removal, which obviously causes me frustration. And Gitz reacts to TrangaBellam's changes, which are much more intrusive (TrangaBellam interfere with the text being discussed) in a completely different way, accepting them in principle without any major objections. My requests to use the ] method towards changes made by TrangaBellam (which was applied to my changes) have been consistently ignored by both users. In both users behaviour I see an intention to cause me frustration as a result of which I will break the ] rule and be punished for it (Gitz now counts all my reverts, ignoring the situation in which they occurred).

	As for the accusation of promoting fringe theory, it is as unfounded as hurtful to me personally, because I put a lot of effort into finding sources and adding the best possible content to Misplaced Pages. Gitz's comment {{tq\|see their comment on t/p about that fringe theory being an accepted course of events in historical literature rather than some figment of the imagination of a few crazy nationalists from the Canadian Polish Congress}} is a manipulation of my statement. My point was that the allegations of Bielski partisans involvement appeared in 1993 and were basically accepted as correct until the IPN investigation in the 2000s that showed that this was in fact not even so much a fringe theory as simply untrue. The Polish Canadian Congress only picked it up and made huge deal out of it. I even added () information about how the Catholic-right-wing ''Nasz Dziennik'' used Naliboki in its narrative to counter the narrative about ]. Why would I do this if my intention was to promote this fringe theory?

	Gitz is also saying {{tq\|Finally, the same behaviour is displayed at History of the Jews in Poland, where Marcelus builds walls of text to demonstrate that two high quality sources (academically focused books) are mistaken}}; It's not true. I encourage you to read this long discussion. In short, using a number of high-quality sources, I proved that the original source of the information in the article made a mistake. (This discussion is a good example of ] and ] on Gitz part btw). I have spent too much time on this and checked too many sources to allow myself to be maligned in this way.

	At this point, Gitz accuses me of "ignoring the arguments made by other", but anyone who reads the discussion will see that before the changes made by TrangBellam, I was responding to all comments and trying to compromise. It was only after ignoring my to undo the invasive changes to the text that was being discussed (]) made by TrangBellam and acting as their changes where the new arbitrary established ] I changed my attitude. And refused to participate in the new discussion TrangBellam was starting, ignoring the ongoing discussions. I wasn't perfect, but I acted in good faith all the time, I was open to the comments of other editors, I did everything to make the article as good as possible, based on the best sources.] (]) 02:43, 3 March 2023 (UTC)

	===Statement by GizzyCatBella===		===Statement by GizzyCatBella===

Revision as of 12:07, 3 March 2023

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Truth&Wisdom365

Closing without further action (except that I've given an alert/first) at this point due to limited number of edits and that they haven't edited for a few days. If similar editing continues a NOTHERE block would be appropriate. Callanecc (talk • contribs • logs) 07:35, 28 February 2023 (UTC)
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.
This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below. Requests may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs (not counting required information), except by permission of a reviewing administrator. Request concerning Truth&Wisdom365 User who is submitting this request for enforcement Tgeorgescu (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) 02:23, 25 February 2023 (UTC) User against whom enforcement is requested Truth&Wisdom365 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) Search CT alerts: in user talk history • in system log Sanction or remedy to be enforced WP:PSCI Diffs of edits that violate this sanction or remedy, and an explanation how these edits violate it 25 February 2023 — blatant violation of WP:PSCI. I believe they violated WP:CITELEAD, since the pseudoscientific and racist character of Anthroposophy is rendered below the lead section, supported by multiple WP:RS. Below the lead section, removing the claims made by RS while keeping the same RS is extremely gauche, and it could be seen as vandalism. Apparently, they are a supporter of Anthroposophy performing WP:CENSORing of the article, since they do not like how Anthroposophy is seen by mainstream scientists, mainstream academics and debunkers of pseudoscience. They are a WP:SPA and till now they have only performed POV edits (100% of their four edits are POV). I know they're a newbie, but it would be foolish to WP:AGF. I don't have much trust in people who at their first edit state something like WARNING: The following input contains highly editorialized input by a clear critic. Which often means "my mind is made up, don't confuse me with the facts". Speaking of myself: I had pretty weird ideas when I began editing Misplaced Pages, but I wasn't blocked and banned because I wasn't obnoxious. Diffs of previous relevant sanctions, if any If contentious topics restrictions are requested, supply evidence that the user is aware of them (see WP:CTOP#Awareness of contentious topics) Alerted about discretionary sanctions or contentious topics in the area of conflict, on 24 February 2023 (see the system log linked to above). Additional comments by editor filing complaint Notification of the user against whom enforcement is requested 25 February 2023 Discussion concerning Truth&Wisdom365 Statements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator. Administrators may remove or shorten noncompliant statements. Disruptive contributions may result in blocks. Statement by Truth&Wisdom365 Statement by (username) Result concerning Truth&Wisdom365 This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the sections above. I'm thinking a NOTHERE block as a single purpose account might be more appropriate here especially as Truth&Wisdom365 hasn't received {{alert/first}}. Callanecc (talk • contribs • logs) 09:59, 25 February 2023 (UTC) I agree with Callanecc that a NOTHERE block would be more appropriate given that this is a new user who hasn't made any other edits. Hut 8.5 08:46, 27 February 2023 (UTC) I see that there have only been four edits (all of them appearing to be an issue), and none since the start of this AE. While an indef per WP:NOTHERE would be perfectly reasonable within policy, my first choice would be to wait and see if the disruption continues or if the editor starts engaging with the community. If the pattern resumes, I think an indef would be a pretty simple matter without any need for discussion. The Wordsmith 21:57, 27 February 2023 (UTC) I don't see a block as being preventative at this point given the lack of recent activity, though an indef will be likely if disruption resumes. (Tgeorgescu, just for future reference, you do need to use Template:Contentious topics/alert/first rather than Template:Contentious topics/alert when giving someone a first CT notice: otherwise, as Callanecc notes, they're technically not considered aware under ArbCom's new guidelines.) Extraordinary Writ (talk) 06:50, 28 February 2023 (UTC)

Closing without further action (except that I've given an alert/first) at this point due to limited number of edits and that they haven't edited for a few days. If similar editing continues a NOTHERE block would be appropriate. Callanecc (talk • contribs • logs) 07:35, 28 February 2023 (UTC)

The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.

This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below.
Requests may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs (not counting required information), except by permission of a reviewing administrator.

Request concerning Truth&Wisdom365

User who is submitting this request for enforcement: Tgeorgescu (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) 02:23, 25 February 2023 (UTC)

User against whom enforcement is requested: Truth&Wisdom365 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
Search CT alerts: in user talk history • in system log

Sanction or remedy to be enforced: WP:PSCI

Diffs of edits that violate this sanction or remedy, and an explanation how these edits violate it

25 February 2023 — blatant violation of WP:PSCI. I believe they violated WP:CITELEAD, since the pseudoscientific and racist character of Anthroposophy is rendered below the lead section, supported by multiple WP:RS. Below the lead section, removing the claims made by RS while keeping the same RS is extremely gauche, and it could be seen as vandalism. Apparently, they are a supporter of Anthroposophy performing WP:CENSORing of the article, since they do not like how Anthroposophy is seen by mainstream scientists, mainstream academics and debunkers of pseudoscience. They are a WP:SPA and till now they have only performed POV edits (100% of their four edits are POV). I know they're a newbie, but it would be foolish to WP:AGF. I don't have much trust in people who at their first edit state something like WARNING: The following input contains highly editorialized input by a clear critic. Which often means "my mind is made up, don't confuse me with the facts". Speaking of myself: I had pretty weird ideas when I began editing Misplaced Pages, but I wasn't blocked and banned because I wasn't obnoxious.

Diffs of previous relevant sanctions, if any

If contentious topics restrictions are requested, supply evidence that the user is aware of them (see WP:CTOP#Awareness of contentious topics)

Alerted about discretionary sanctions or contentious topics in the area of conflict, on 24 February 2023 (see the system log linked to above).

Additional comments by editor filing complaint

Notification of the user against whom enforcement is requested

25 February 2023

Discussion concerning Truth&Wisdom365

Statements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator.
Administrators may remove or shorten noncompliant statements. Disruptive contributions may result in blocks.

Statement by Truth&Wisdom365

Statement by (username)

Result concerning Truth&Wisdom365

This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the sections above.

I'm thinking a NOTHERE block as a single purpose account might be more appropriate here especially as Truth&Wisdom365 hasn't received {{alert/first}}. Callanecc (talk • contribs • logs) 09:59, 25 February 2023 (UTC)
I agree with Callanecc that a NOTHERE block would be more appropriate given that this is a new user who hasn't made any other edits. Hut 8.5 08:46, 27 February 2023 (UTC)
I see that there have only been four edits (all of them appearing to be an issue), and none since the start of this AE. While an indef per WP:NOTHERE would be perfectly reasonable within policy, my first choice would be to wait and see if the disruption continues or if the editor starts engaging with the community. If the pattern resumes, I think an indef would be a pretty simple matter without any need for discussion. The Wordsmith 21:57, 27 February 2023 (UTC)
I don't see a block as being preventative at this point given the lack of recent activity, though an indef will be likely if disruption resumes. (Tgeorgescu, just for future reference, you do need to use Template:Contentious topics/alert/first rather than Template:Contentious topics/alert when giving someone a first CT notice: otherwise, as Callanecc notes, they're technically not considered aware under ArbCom's new guidelines.) Extraordinary Writ (talk) 06:50, 28 February 2023 (UTC)

TrangaBellam

Request concerning TrangaBellam

User who is submitting this request for enforcement: Marcelus (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) 20:56, 2 March 2023 (UTC)

User against whom enforcement is requested: TrangaBellam (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
Search CT alerts: in user talk history • in system log

Sanction or remedy to be enforced: WP:ARBEE or whichever applies

Diffs of edits that violate this sanction or remedy, and an explanation how these edits violate it

12:54, 2 March 2023 Changed the title of the section that was under ongoing discussion
13:01, 2 March 2023 Restored the title of the section without engaging in discussion
14:30, 2 March 2023 Made a major change to the text that was being discussed at the time, without engaging in the discussion
14:47, 2 March 2023 Restored the same edition, ignoring offers to participate in the ongoing discussion on the talk page
17:38, 2 March 2023 Not backed by anything accusation: "All I see is you engaging in a fair amount of acrobatics to push a particular ahistorical POV"
20:15, 2 March 2023 "I plan to ignore your commentary on the meta-issues"
20:35, 2 March 2023 Continued to edit the page ignoring requests to undo the edits and discuss them on the talk page

If contentious topics restrictions are requested, supply evidence that the user is aware of them (see WP:CTOP#Awareness of contentious topics)

Alerted about discretionary sanctions or contentious topics in the area of conflict, on 08:26, 15 February 2023

Additional comments by editor filing complaint

I need to report TrangaBellam behavior regarding the Naliboki massacre article and its talk page. To keep it brief. There has been a discussion for some time about the content of one of the sections. TrangaBellam not engaging in the discussion did change the section title, I reverted it inviting user to join the discussion. Twice. Then the user made a much larger edition, which I also reverted, invoking the WP:BRD method and inviting to discussion. It started WP:EDITWARRING. Afraid of breaking the WP:3RR rule, I withdrew the last one, asking TrangaBellam to voluntarily withdraw from the changes and join the ongoing discussions. TrangaBellam ignored the ongoing discussions and started new ones, in which he acted as if they were new WP:CONSENSUS. He refused to revert the changes and continue to editing discussed section ingoring my pleas to stop doing so. TrangaBellam accused me of "engaging in a fair amount of acrobatics to push a particular ahistorical POV", without claryfing what he means about that. To me, this is an example of WP:DISRUPTIVE, as expressed on WP:CONSENSUS: Editors who ignore talk page discussions yet continue to edit in or revert disputed material, or who stonewall discussions, may be guilty of disruptive editing and incur sanctions. The way he acts and the way he addresses me leads me to believe that his actions are intended to make me break WP:3RR and receive sanctions as a result. I asked him nicely to start over on his talk page without any bad blood. But TrangaBellam and once he said on Talk:Naliboki massacre: "I plan to ignore your commentary on the meta-issues", I decided to aks admins for help.

Notification of the user against whom enforcement is requested

21:55, 2 March 2023

Discussion concerning TrangaBellam

Statement by TrangaBellam

Paging Levivich, Adoring nanny, K.e.coffman, Gitz6666, Horse Eye's Back and GizzyCatBella — the other participants in this discussion, article (today), and the ANI thread. I believe their opinion might be of aid. Thanks, TrangaBellam (talk) 21:00, 2 March 2023 (UTC)

Fwiw, I do not plan to partake in this AE thread. TrangaBellam (talk) 21:00, 2 March 2023 (UTC)

Making an exception for My Very Best Wishes. MVBW, who had reverted my bold edit at the first place for BRD to even come into play? Fwiw, as of now, there is clear consensus in my favor; none barring you — I believe, even VM — propose to restore the deleted section. TrangaBellam (talk) 22:39, 2 March 2023 (UTC)

Paging Adoring nanny because the previous ping failed due to a typo. TrangaBellam (talk) 21:01, 2 March 2023 (UTC)

Statement by K.e.coffman

I'm not sure that my voice was ignored, and all of my edits were removed diff is a sufficient reason to open ANI and AE threads. For the preceding ANI, pls see: thread. --K.e.coffman (talk) 21:09, 2 March 2023 (UTC)

I'm concerned that My very best wishes may be misinterpreting the discussion at Talk:Kielce pogrom, in their statement. TrangaBellam's bold edit removed a long-standing dubious theory diff, with the content mixing reliable and unreliable sources to advance a certain POV. I did not see editors suggesting that the section be restored in its entirety. Subsequent discussion also showed that some of the reliable sources were misrepresented: , starting with: With regard to the discussion on Anne Applebaum here above, note that she has been selectively quoted if not misunderstood in the article... --K.e.coffman (talk) 22:47, 2 March 2023 (UTC)

Statement by My very best wishes

I noticed that TrangaBellam also made this large-scale removal of sourced text on another page, during an active discussion on article talk page, but without having any sign of WP:Consensus for such removal ,. This text was sourced to publications by Jan T. Gross, Ann Applebaum, Tadeusz Piotrowski and Aleksander Wat, among many others. None of these authors belong to fringe Polish nationalists. The views by authors were not misrepresented on the page, as far as I can see. I think such removal was unhelpful for building WP:Consensus on the page. But this does not rise to the level requiring any sanctions, in my opinion. My very best wishes (talk) 22:27, 2 March 2023 (UTC)

@K.e.coffman. No, I believe the view by Applebaum was not misrepresented by not citing everything she said. If the contributor thought the citation was incomplete , nothing prevented them from expanding this citation to fix the problem. And what bias? "anti-NKVD"? My very best wishes (talk) 23:16, 2 March 2023 (UTC)

Statement by Gitz

Marcelus complains that refused to revert the changes and continue to editing discussed section ingoring my pleas to stop doing so, but everyone who commented on the talk page agreed that TrangaBellam's edits were an improvement (Adoring nanny, K.e.coffman and myself) and no one (apart from Marcelus) reverted them. They complain that TrangaBellam ignored the ongoing discussions and started new ones, but TrangaBellam engaged in extensive discussions with Marcelus and repeatedly asked them to explain their objections: no less than six times (!) from 13:50, 2 March 2023 to 17:55, 2 March 2023. Marcelus didn't want TrangaBellam to remove this text of theirs mentioning Nowicki and Boradyn and lending some credibility to the fringe theory that the Jews perpetrated the Naliboki massacre. Most of Marcelus's editing is aimed at substantiating that theory. See e.g. this edit reverting my revert of their bold edit on Jewish partisans active in the Naliboki area; see their comment on t/p about that fringe theory being an accepted course of events in historical literature rather than some figment of the imagination of a few crazy nationalists from the Canadian Polish Congress .

This is not only a content dispute. First, it's a blatant case of WP:IDIDNTHEARTHAT, with Marcelus ignoring the arguments made by other editors. Secondly, Marcelus violated the 3RR (13:50, 2 March 2023; 13:37, 2 March 2023; 12:03, 2 March 2023; 11:56, 2 March 2023‎), engaged in disruptive/tendentious editing (, reverting my reverts of their text on Nowicki and Boradyn; , unexplained removal, not accounted for in the edit summary, of right-wing organisation ... wrongly claimed that), bludgeoned the talk page and was uncivil to me and others. My request to self-revert on their user talk page triggered an extensive discussion to no avail: Undoing your baseless revert is not edit warring (where do you see WP:UNDUE?). I find threatening me with a noticeboard report rather petty . Their casting aspersion on article t/p ( ) was followed by my second thread on their user talk, again to no avail: Spare me the paternalistic tone . Finally, the same behaviour is displayed at History of the Jews in Poland, where Marcelus builds walls of text to demonstrate that two high quality sources (academically focused books) are mistaken: I think I've convincingly shown the source to be wrong on this matter , I don't know why you insist on what is an obvious mistake by Rozenbaum, repeated by Prizel ; plus ~~the usual~~ a bit of incivility .

I believe WP:BOOMERANG is in order and badly needed in the delicate area of Antisemitism in Poland. Gitz (talk) (contribs) 00:51, 3 March 2023 (UTC)

Actually it all started with the removal of an entire section by Adoring nanny (22:03, 21 February 2023), which I reverted (22:05, 21 February 2023) inviting to t/p, which we did, and I was editing other sections (13:17, 26 February 2023).

When I did a major edit (13:45, 28 February 2023). Gitz reverted it, I restored it inviting to t/p. The response was to refer to the WP:BRD method. Reluctantly, but I agreed to this and did not undo edits, and we moved to t/p. The same was with my next major edit (Nowicki's memoirs: 11:27, 1 March 2022).

Gitz accuses me of promoting fringe theory by mentioning Nowicki and Boradyna, ignoring the fact that after TrangaBellam's changes the mention of Nowicki remained and Gitz didn't voice any concerns (earlier Gitz demanded that it need to be hidden in a footnote). It seems that only if I make the change then I am promoting fringe theory and my changes must be reverted. Gitz reacts to TrangaBellam's persistent changes in a completely different way, accepting them without any major objections. My requests to use the WP:BRD method also towards changes made by TrangaBellam have been ignored by both users. I sense the intention to cause me frustration and make me to break WP:3RR.

My point is that the allegations of Bielski partisans involvement appeared in 1993 and were accepted as correct until the IPN investigation. I added (15:15, 2 March 2023) info that Nasz Dziennik used Naliboki allegations to counter the Jedwabne Pogrom.

As for History of the Jews in Poland pls read t/p. In short, using a number of high-quality sources, I proved that the original source of the information in the article made a mistake. (This discussion is a good example of bludgeoing and WP:NOTGETTINGIT on Gitz part btw).

I was responding to all comments and trying to compromise. I changed the attitued after my requests to apply WP:BRD to TrangBellam's edits were ignored. I refused to participate in the new discussions TrangBellam was starting, ignoring the ongoing discussions. Marcelus (talk) 12:06, 3 March 2023 (UTC)

Statement by GizzyCatBella

Without remarking on the already carried forward disturbing factors of TrangaBellam's behaviour, I would like to draw the attention of the reviewing administrators to the serious incivility issues..

personal attacks + aspersions - Piotrus, if you find that there are reliable historians — though I doubt that you understand the term — who admire Glaukopis, feel free to add them. But otherwise, I take a dim view of your shenanigans

and refusal to refactor that personal attack with straight No When asked about the same, my appeal was reverted with the accusations of trolling (see edit summary]

Here is the list of incivility - that is just from the last few days:

Result concerning TrangaBellam

This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the sections above.

The rules above read (in bold): Enforcement requests and statements in response to them may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs. I count +1,500 words by Marcelus and and 40+ diffs by GizzyCatBella. Both need to be trimmed accordingly. Also adding to the confusion, Marcelus has split sections for some reason. These need to be merged (at the top). Note: I'm unlikely to follow up on this, so no need to ping me. El_C 11:05, 3 March 2023 (UTC)