| Revision as of 05:27, 2 May 2023 editPaul Siebert (talk | contribs)Extended confirmed users, Pending changes reviewers26,740 edits →Memoirs quotes: new sectionTag: New topic← Previous edit |
Revision as of 05:32, 2 May 2023 edit undoLowercase sigmabot III (talk | contribs)Bots, Template editors2,296,120 editsm Archiving 2 discussion(s) to Talk:Rape during the occupation of Germany/Archive 4) (botNext edit → |
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{{small|Above undated message substituted from ] by ] (]) 07:48, 17 January 2022 (UTC)}} |
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{{small|Above undated message substituted from ] by ] (]) 07:48, 17 January 2022 (UTC)}} |
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== Additions to the lead == |
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{{yo|LaggerLegend}} you recently added a few paragraphs of new content to the very beginning of this article. I have now reverted you twice, with you re-reverting in between. As you have not been using edit summaries, it is hard to know why you feel this content merits inclusion, or why it can be included despite a lack of sourcing. In the hopes of avoiding a full ], I am hoping you will join this discussion to justify your edits and possibly build consensus for including your work. ] (]) 05:38, 12 July 2021 (UTC) |
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{{yo|Firefangledfeathers}} (]) I would love to share with you some information. Stalin has signed special order and communicated by phone to generals on 19th January 1945. Zhukov, Konev, and Rokossovsky have ordered their armies to follow these rules. Some sources: |
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http://www.great-country.ru/rubrika_myths/vov/00027.html |
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http://www.spiegel.de/spiegel/print/d-41521130.html |
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"Am 29. Januar ließ Marschall Schukow in allen Bataillonen seiner 1. Belorussischen Heeresgruppe einen Ukas verlesen, der es den Rotarmisten untersagte, "die deutsche Bevölkerung zu drangsalieren, die Wohnungen zu plündern und die Häuser niederzubrennen". Zugleich sollte die Verlesung eines schon früher erlassenen Stalin-Befehls den Warnungen vor Ausschreitungen Nachdruck geben: |
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Offiziere und Rotarmisten aller Truppen! Wir gehen jetzt ins feindliche Land, Von jedem wird Selbstbeherrschung verlangt, jeder hat tapfer zu sein, wie es einem Kämpfer der Roten Armee gebührt, Die auf von uns besetzt-am Gebiet zurückgebliebene Bevölkerung, unabhängig davon, ob es Deutsche, Tschechen oder Polen sind, soll nicht belästigt und nicht beleidigt werden, denn die Schuldigen werden nach Kriegsgesetzen bestraft. Im besetzten Feindgebiet darf kein intimer Verkehr mit Frauen stattfinden Für Mißhandlungen und Vergewaltigungen werden die Schuldigen erschossen." |
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Heeresgruppe Mitte Abt. Ic/AO 'Sowjetische Befehle über Verhalten der RA auf deutschem Boden' 3 Feb. 1945 (т.е. "Советские приказы о поведении Красной армии на немецкой земле") |
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По немецким территориям есть две Директивы Ставки ВГК: |
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от 2 апреля 1945 г. № 11055: |
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«Войскам, действующим на территории Австрии, дать указания о том, чтобы население Австрии не обижать, вести себя корректно и не смешивать австрийцев с немецкими оккупантами.» |
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и от 20 апреля 1945 г. № 11072. |
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«Ставка Верховного Главнокомандования приказывает: |
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1. Потребовать от войск изменить отношение к немцам как к военнопленным, так и к гражданскому населению и обращаться с немцами лучше. |
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Жестокое обращение с немцами вызывает у них боязнь и заставляет их упорно сопротивляться, не сдаваясь в плен. Гражданское население, опасаясь мести, организуется в банды. Такое положение нам не выгодно.» |
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В хрущевском официозе История Великой Отечественной войны Советского Союза 1941-1945 гг. Т. 5. М., 1963 приказ Сталина не упомянут. |
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В брежневском официозе История второй мировой войны 1939–1945 гг. Т. 10. М., 1979. с. 144-145 ссылается на: |
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Наше мщение. // Красная Звезда. М., 1945. №33, 9 февраля, с. 1: |
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http://libinfo.org/newsr/newsr130.djvu |
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Нельзя представить себе дела таким образом, что если, скажем, фашистские двуногие звери позволяли себе публично насиловать наших женщин или занимались мародерством, то и мы в отместку им должны делать то же самое. Этого никогда не бывало и быть не может. Наш боец никогда не допустит ничего подобного, хотя руководствоваться здесь он будет отнюдь не жалостью, а только чувством собственного достоинства. |
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http://www.airo-xxi.ru/gb/doklady/doklad01.htm#_ednref28 |
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Большевик. 1945. № 2. С.5. |
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] (]) also, please read № 284. Приказ о порядке использования трофейного народнохозяйственного имущества № 04 19 января 1945 г. http://militera.lib.ru/docs/da/nko_1943-1945/14.html |
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:Thank you for providing some sources. Many are primary documents from during or soon after the war. We need to be cautious not to overuse such documents per WP:PRIMARY. If you find those sources to supplement current content sourced to reliable, secondary sources, I believe the article would be strengthened by their inclusion. Having skimmed through your links, I didn't easily find anything to support some of your content. For example, your edit began with: {{fontcolor|green|{{blockquote|The main thing is being displaced from the historical memory of the Second World War - that the USSR and the Soviet people saved Europe from the destruction of entire states and peoples, and democracy itself, and at the cost of colossal losses and sacrifices, unprecedented suffering and destruction on Soviet soil and an incredible exertion of forces. Moreover, in the western zones of German occupation, as the documents show , there was by no means the idyll the image of which is being instilled in the public consciousness today. Eisenhower 's Radio Message "We Come Winning!"meant both "the right of the victors" and "woe to the vanquished." "Paradise life" in the western sectors turned out to be such that even refugees frightened by the propaganda about "Russian atrocities" returned to the areas occupied by Soviet troops .}}}} What I have found so far in your sources does not support that content. Is the part about Eisenhower's message an interpretation of a reliable source, or your own interpretation? How about the labeling of the USSR's role in the war as the "main thing" being displaced in memory? In general, your content could benefit from inline citations, so that it's clear which source can verify each sentence or paragraph. You can learn more about how to do that at ]. ] (]) 20:34, 12 July 2021 (UTC) |
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== Ethnic Heritage of the Rapists? == |
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What was the ethnic heritage of the Soviet Soldiers who committed (mass) rapes? There is some rumor that the Majority of them were Non-Europeans just like Tatars, Azerbaijanis, Kalmyks, Tuwinians, Buryatians and Yakutians.--] (]) 13:39, 8 August 2021 (UTC) |
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== Splitting out the section on the rape by the Soviet troops == |
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== Splitting out the section on the rape by the Soviet troops == |
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Widely known about illegal violance agianst german and austrian cicvilian in East Prussia, Pomerania, Bohemia, Sylezia, Sydets and inner area in Poland and Czechoslovakia. Dmitriy Tehlin (talk) 04:42, 12 October 2022 (UTC)
The source (Grossman) clearly says that the description of "Mongol rapists" was a standard formula used by German woman as an argument for getting abortion. According to the Goebbels' racial hygiene laws, abortions were allowed only if there was a risk of "contaminating" "high quality Aryan blood" with the Untermensch blood. This law was still in effect in the occupied Germany, and German woman "drew upon the Nazi racial hygiene discourse which banned "alien" (artfremd) offspring (indeed, when rapes by other occupation forces were certified, the perpetrator was frequently identified as Negro if American or North African if French). They availed themselves of the rich repertory of Nazi racial imagery of the barbarian from the East, especially the Mongol from the Far East, associated with the cruel frenzy of Genghis Khan. A letter from July 24, 1945:
I am shocked. Whoever wrote this racist bullshit, I am going to report them immediately if this text (The first Soviet troops to fight in Berlin consisted mostly of Mongolians.) will be restored.--Paul Siebert (talk) 05:19, 2 May 2023 (UTC)
I noticed many quotes from memoirs describe behaviour of Soviet military is details. I am not sure that is encyclopedic. However, if we believe that is ok, I found several books and articles that were published only recently, but that contain similar storied about American GIs and other Allied troops. I am going to add them per NPOV. Paul Siebert (talk) 05:27, 2 May 2023 (UTC)
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This article was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment, between 13 May 2019 and 1 July 2019. Further details are available on the course page. Student editor(s): Australyeah.