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Revision as of 03:24, 26 May 2023

More discussion on how to handle abolished noble titles

Some of the responses to this thread highlight the issues that our naming, WEIGHT, RS, and NPOV policies apparently do not sufficiently cover. It's not just Austria -- in basically any country where the monarchy was officially abolished and royal/noble titles outlawed, there is some constituent that continues to idolize aristocracy, and the most accessible sources (news articles, magazines) fervently cater to them. Is the POV promoted by rainbow media and aristocratic orgs more DUE than that of the government and academia, which generally do not mention this specific person by name but only cover the disputed title--which by extension ensures that individual doesn't personally, legally claim the title himself? While it would be great if everyone interpreted the above policies as you said you do in the earlier thread (with official constitutional decrees, governmental recognition, and/or personal non-use of a title having precedence when considering article titles as well as article body treatment), there is enough ambiguity that these arguments constantly re-emerge. JoelleJay (talk) 22:19, 6 August 2020 (UTC)

User:JoelleJay General cases versus Specific items would definitely seem a useful way to make distinctions. For example, the ‘generally’ useful guide for all might give strong value on WP:WEIGHT of the common usage, except to respect a BLP person's explicit ‘specific choices’ otherwise such as abdication or claims in dispute, plus the article should do NPOV and present both views in proportion to their prominence. And individual articles may go their own way in any case so embrace whatever is decided will be just a general guide.

There might also be some agreement to approach things using specifics. Folks might agree to a principle of respecting ‘specific mentions’ more than of general ones. Or folks might agree to take an approach of smaller bites. Perhaps things could be broken into ‘specific kinds of cases’ (e.g. exiled vs born to title but never titled, vs born after the law, etcetera) and find that some are not contentious. Or perhaps things could be looked at as let's just get a guide ‘specific to Austria and the living Austrian nobility‘ and so just needs to discuss a small number of specific articles and actual situations. Just throwing out ideas here, you may have others. Cheers Markbassett (talk) 03:58, 7 August 2020 (UTC)

Pound sterling

Mark, it is not clear from your post what exactly you are declaring your support for. Would you read the three questions again please? John Maynard Friedman (talk) 15:19, 29 August 2022 (UTC)

@John Maynard Friedman: The phrase "the three questions" should link to Talk:Pound sterling instead of Talk:Pound Sterling. NotReallySoroka (talk) 15:30, 29 August 2022 (UTC)

Sorry, I can't see any difference?

Mark put his response at the end of #Survey (Q1) but I can't see which of your three questions he supports. But I assume that his intent is covered in his subsequent declaration at #Survey (Q2) and we need not pursue further. --John Maynard Friedman (talk) 15:45, 29 August 2022 (UTC)

just to note -- the final comment seems to say clarification not needed about this, but I did go back and saw more to talk about not directly related to the 'not clear' post here. Cheers Markbassett (talk) 16:32, 29 August 2022 (UTC)

MOS:CURRENCY

I sympathise with your view that something like The Neptuno (symbol, ♆, ISO 4217 code EWN) is the currency of Erewhon as an opening phrase is indeed rather deathly prose, especially as it duplicates the infobox. If there were to be a an advisory on it, MOS:CURRENCY would be the place for it but right now it has nothing to say. So if you want to pursue the question, Misplaced Pages talk:Manual of Style/Dates and numbers would be the place to raise it. I guess one immediate riposte would be that the phrase in parentheses provides a landing zone for the (fictitious) Neptuno and EWN (currency) redirects. So you would need to anticipate that one in your proposal. John Maynard Friedman (talk) 18:36, 13 September 2022 (UTC)

• User:John Maynard Friedman - thank you for your note. After some thinking and searching, the relationship of lead and infobox seemed a question wider than currencies, so I posted a question at the TALK of MOS:LEAD and MOS:IB, and will see what comes of that. The MOS:CURRENCY for mentions of currency outside of where the currency is the topic, and it's Misplaced Pages talk:Manual of Style/Dates and numbers seemed good places for something else though -- how and why did it get this way for almost all of the  ? But while I can see in the history that leads grew into this format circa 2010-2015, I didn't find any overall discussion -- though it was interesting to read such as the Current international dollar vs Zimbabwe. Cheers Markbassett (talk) 15:12, 15 September 2022 (UTC)

Yes, good point on the more general issue of duplication. I see the infobox as being the most essential information about the topic in a nutshell. . Duplication in the lead seems to be the norm rather than the exception: years of "custom and practice" got us here. I doubt it will change: some people just like the narrative form of the lead, others the capsule form of the infobox; the fondest adherents of each despise the other. Like some people swear by categories and others (like me) swear about them. You expressed the point well at wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Lead section so I shall be interested to see the outcome. --John Maynard Friedman (talk) 15:48, 15 September 2022 (UTC)

User:John Maynard Friedman - The IB post drew mention of MOS:INFOBOXPURPOSE which includes a line saying "where a piece of key specialised information is difficult to integrate into the body text, but where that information may be placed in the infobox". It mentions the ISO code for linguistics and the parameters of Chembox, and I note astronomical data Infoboxes for such as Sirius and Ceres (dwarf planet) are further examples of where reference data or notation should be in the IB. Maybe not all I could hope for, but it is something. Cheers Markbassett (talk) 19:06, 24 September 2022 (UTC).

Well if you want to move it on, the mechanism is an RFC. This, if it secures consensus, means that MOS:CURRENCY gets revised and the parenthesised text can be removed from articles. I can't see any chance of achieving it on an article-by-article basis. RFCs are a lot of work, it is critical to set it up properly. I've never done one, though I've seen quite a few failures (frequently at the first fence), so you would be well advised to ask to be mentored through it. --𝕁𝕄𝔽 (talk) 19:39, 24 September 2022 (UTC)

Software engineering

Starting talk to give notes to myself .... re Hamilton claim she invented software engineering, or the term ... Think she was the team lead for Apollo modules software (team grew up to 'have almost 100 software engineers' so not trivial but ...)

Credited to Oettinger 1966 letter as President of the ACM President's Letter to the ACM Membership -

 "We must recognize ourselves-not necessarily all of us, and not necessarily any one of us all the time-as members of a engineering profession, be it hardware engineering or software engineering, a profession without artificial and irrelevant boundaries like that between "scientific" and "business" applications."

Anthony Oettinger - President 1966-1968 of the , founded the Computer Science and Engineering Board of the National Academy of Sciences and chaired it for six years starting in 1967. In Dec 1966 ""The notion of software engineering is, thank goodness, beginning to be heard of more and more". and "Unless economic and engineering criteria are brought into the picture, sterile monsters result."

NATO Software Engineering

The Roots of Software Engineering, Princeton CWI quarterly 1990 (325-334) (An expanded version of a lecture presented at CWI on 1 February 1990. It is based on researchgenerously supported by the Alfred P. Sloan Foundation.) Begins wanting the context not just listing names, dates, and places of firsts. So trying to determine what people thought when they first began to talk about "software engineering". - one writer suggested originated 1965

• Brian Randell ("Software Engineering in 1968", Prof. 4th Intern. Conf. on Software Engineering , 1) ascribes it to J.P. Eckert at th e Fall Joint Computer Conference in 1965, but th e transcript ofthe one panel discussion in which Eckert participated shows no evidence of the term "software engineering". D.T.Ross claims the term was used in courses he was teaching at MIT in the late '50s; cf. "Interview: Douglas RossTalks About Structured Analysis", Computer (July 1985), 80-88

- first came into common currency in 1967 when the Study Group on Computer Science of the NATO Science Committee called for an international conference on t he subject - As Brian Randell and Peter Naur point out in the introduction to theiredition of the proceedings, "The phrase 'software engineering' was deliberately chosen as beingprovocative, in implying the need for software manufacture to be on the types oftheoretical foundations and practical disciplines that are traditional in the established branchesof engineering."

• Peter Naur, Brian Randell, J.N. Buxton (eds.), Software Engineering: Concepts and Techniques (NY:Petrocelli/Charter, 1976; hereafter NRB)

-Michael S Mahoney, "The History of Computing in the History of Technology", Annals of the History of Computing 10, no. 2 (April 1988):113-125 "To emphasize the need for a concerted effort along new lines, the committee coined the term “software engineering”, reflecting the view that the problem required the combination of science and management thought characteristic of engineering. "

-Andrew L. Friedman and Dominic S Cornford’s 1989 book Computer Systems Development: History, Organization and Implementation. ... - Martin Boogard’s 1994 thesis, Defusing the Software Crisis ... - 1996 Martin Campbell-Kelly and William Aspray published their overview of the history of computing, Computer: A History of the Information Machine - two conferences on the history of software held in Germany around this time. The first, at Scholss Dagstuhl in 1996, was dedicated to the history of software engineering and included veterans of the 1968 conference

History of software engineering has "Early usages for the term software engineering include a 1965 letter from ACM president Anthony Oettinger, lectures by Douglas T. Ross at MIT in the 1950s, and Margaret H. Hamilton as a way of giving it legitimacy during the development of the Apollo Guidance Computer. "

Software engineering had "The term "software engineering" was coined by Anthony Oettinger and then was used in 1968 as a title for the world's first conference on software engineering, sponsored and facilitated by NATO. "

The origins of the term "software engineering" have been attributed to various sources. The term "software engineering" appeared in a list of services offered by companies in the June 1965 issue of COMPUTERS and AUTOMATION and was used more formally in the August 1966 issue of Communications of the ACM (Volume 9, number 8) “letter to the ACM membership” by the ACM President Anthony A. Oettinger, it is also associated with the title of a NATO conference in 1968 by Professor Friedrich L. Bauer, the first conference on software engineering. Margaret Hamilton described the discipline "software engineering" during the Apollo missions to give what they were doing legitimacy.

Springer History of Software Engineering by O'Regan starts "This chapter presents a short history of software engineering from its birth at the Garmisch conference in Germany, and it is emphasized that software engineering is a lot more than just programming. "

IEEE, N. Wirth "A Brief History of Software Engineering" https://people.inf.ethz.ch/wirth/Miscellaneous/IEEE-Annals.pdf here] The difficulties brought big companies to the brink of collapse. In 1968 a conference sponsored by NATO was dedicated to the topic (1968 at Garmisch-Partenkirchen, Germany) . Although critical comments had occasionally been voiced earlier , it was not before that conference that the difficulties were openly discussed and confessed with unusual frankness, and the terms software engineering and software crisis were coined. 1. P. Naur and B. Randell, Eds. Software Engineering.

Report on a Conference held in Garmisch, Oct. 1968, sponsored by NATO 

2. E.W. Dijkstra. Some critical comments on advanced programming. Proc. IFIP Congress, Munich, Aug. 1962. 3. R.S. Barton. A critical review of the state of the programming art. Proc. Spring Joint Computer Conference, 1963, pp 169 – 177.

Grady Booch The History of Software Engineering The Origins of the Term Many suggest it came from the 1968 NATO Conference on Software Engineering, coined by Friedrich Bauer. Others have pointed to the 1966 letter by Anthony Oettinger in Com�munications of the ACM, wherein he used the term “software engineering” to make the distinction between computer science and the building of software-intensive systems.1 Even ear�ier, in the June 1965 issue of Computers and Automation, there appeared a classified ad seeking a “systems software engineer.” All the data I have points to Margaret Hamilton as the person who first coined the term. Having worked on the SAGE (Semi-automatic Ground Environment) program, she became the lead developer for Skylab and Apollo while working at the Draper Lab. According to an (unpublished) oral history, she began to use the term “software engineering” sometime in 1963 or 1964 to distinguish her work from the hardware engineering taking place in the nascent US space program

A Brief History of Software Engineering — Part 1 mentions him

IEEE post The Origins of the Term says "Many suggest it came from the 1968 NATO conference on Software Engineering, coined by Friedrich Bauer. Others have pointed to the 1966 letter by Anthony Oettingger in Communications of the ACM wherein he used the term "software engineering" to make the distinction between computer science and the building of software-intensive systems. Even earlier, in the June 1965 issue of Computers and Automation there appeared a classified ad seeking a "systems software engineer." "

1968 Report on the NATO conference And pg 13 background "The phrase ‘software engineering’ was deliberately chosen as being provocative, in implying the need for software manufacture to be based on the types of theoretical foundations and practical disciplines, that are traditional in the established branches of engineering" and pg75 mentions others already at "In the United States National Academy of Sciences Research Board one education committee being formed is precisely to study software engineering as a possible engineering education activity."

Princeton in Finding a History for Software Engineering starts "Dating from the first international conference on the topic in October 1968, software engineering just turned thirty-five."

John W. Tukey, a chemist and statistician, is credited with the first printed use of the term "software" when he wrote a scientific article in 1958. Elsewhere saw "From soft +‎ -ware, by contrast with hardware (“the computer itself”). Coined 1953 by Paul Niquette; first used in print by John Tukey 1958."

his blog post titled The origin of “software engineering” Bertrand Meyer writes that the term was not coined in 1968 during the famous NATO conference

A different blog The Beginnings of Software Engineering has "The term “software engineering” was first coined in 1972 by Dr. David Parnas when he published the paper, “On the Criteria To Be Used in Decomposing Systems into Modules.” This paper — and the dawn of software engineering — was the result of several notable innovations that happened years prior."

Slideshare History of Software Engineering includes "Margaret Hamilton became the lead developer for Skylab and Apollo while working at the Draper Lab. According to an (unpublished) oral history, she began to use the term "software engineering" sometime in 1963 or 1964 to distinguish her work from the hardware engineering taking place in the nascent US space program." Though elsewhere History of Software Engineers also says 1963 "In 1963, Margaret Hamilton, coined the term software engineering while working on developing the software for the Apollo spacecraft." (though this is flawed by here was no Apollo program in 1963)

Niklaus Wirth wrote A Brief History of Software Engineering (2008) which includes "The term Software Engineering became known after a conference in 1968, when the difficulties and pitfalls of designing complex systems were frankly discussed." ... "In 1968 a conference sponsored by NATO was dedicated to the topic (1968 at Garmisch-Partenkirchen, Germany) . Although critical comments had occasionally been voiced earlier , it was not before that conference that the difficulties were openly discussed and confessed with unusual frankness, and the terms software engineering and software crisis were coined. " 1. P. Naur and B. Randell, Eds. Software Engineering. Report on a Conference held in Garmisch, Oct. 1968, sponsored by NATO 2. E.W. Dijkstra. Some critical comments on advanced programming. Proc. IFIP Congress, Munich, Aug. 1962. 3. R.S. Barton. A critical review of the state of the programming art. Proc. Spring Joint Computer Conference, 1963, pp 169 – 177.

- but I didn't see the topic or SE term in the IFIP abstracts of papers (Aug 27-Sep 1) The session list .. I do see Barton in 1963 found here and criticism of the term 'software' but no mention of 'software engineering'

Grady Booch wrote The History of Software Engineering "Many suggest it came from the 1968 NATO Conference on Software Engineering, coined by Friedrich Bauer4. Others have pointed to the 1966 letter by Anthony Oettinger in Communications of the ACM wherein he used the term “software engineering” to make the distinction between computer science and the building of software-intensive systems5. Even earlier, in the June 1965 issue of Computers and Automation, there appeared a classified ad seeking a “systems software engineer” 6 . All the data I have points to Margaret Hamilton as the person who first coined the term. Having worked on the SAGE program, she became the lead developer for Skylab and Apollo while working at the Draper Labs. According to an (unpublished) oral history, she began to use the term “software engineering” sometime in 1963 or 1964 to distinguish her work from the hardware engineering taking place on the nascent US space program7" 4 Naur, Peter and Randell, Brian. Software Engineering: Report on a conference sponsored by the NATO Science Committee. Brussels, Belgium: NATO Scientific Affairs Division, January 1969. 5 Oettinger, Anthony. “President’s Letter to the ACM Membership.” Communications of the ACM, Vol. 9, No. 12, 1966. 6 Computers and Automation. New York, New York: Edmund Berkeley and Associates, June 1965. 7 NASA. Margaret Hamilton, Apollo Software Engineer, Awarded Presidential Medal of Freedom. 6 August 2017.

Maybe the ngram corpus helps, at least it shows that Software Engineer peak (in print) in 1990, here

says "The term software engineering first was used in the late 1950s and early 1960s. Programmers have always known about civil, electrical and computer engineering and debated what engineering might mean for software." Markbassett (talk) 22:32, 7 May 2023 (UTC)

Intelligent Design type of creationism

Discussion on Irreducible complexity over a lead line The argument that evolution cannot explain complex mechanisms because intermediate precursors would be non-functional was already common in creation science by 1990.

- I'm gobsmacked about the conflating young-earth Creation Science typically Flood geology and explicit biblical linkages with old earth creationsim of Intelligent Design -- I see one source said something, but not really LEAD prominent and not widespread ... But I do see remarks from ID that it does not take a position so can be either ? Markbassett (talk) 03:19, 26 May 2023 (UTC)

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User:Dave souza - I must disagree. Please note a split occurred and ID is recognized by RS as a different branch of creationism, which Creation science#Intelligent design splits off also says. (e.g. “By the mid-1990s, intelligent design had become a separate movement.”) And as Behe’s statements are phrased as something he said, so he is an appropriate sourcing. RS means credible for what the article line says, and covering the statements of the concept origin must by nature come from Behe as the developer of the concept. From the ref you list, The creation science movement is distinguished from the intelligent design movement, or neo-creationism, because most advocates of creation science accept scripture as a literal and inerrant historical account, and their primary goal is to corroborate the scriptural account through the use of science. CS *is* limited to YEC as shown both by definition of trying to produce evidence of biblical inerrancy (of the creation myth and flood myth) and by the demonstrated practices of it adhering to YEC, stereotyped as flood geology or fossil criticisms. CS is also explicitly and openly espousing God as the Creator. Please consider and remove the line stating that “The IC argument was already featured in creation science by the mid 1960s.“ It does not suit WP:LEAD guidance as not a major part of this article, and goes against portrayal that the terminology “Irreducible Complexity” is from Behe. Whether the article would have Behe’s statements in the body giving credit to Paley also seems a body content item, and optional.

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I seem to see most RS *do* draw a distinction between CS and ID as different branches of creationism, with CS firmly as part of YEC, see Creationism#Types and Creationism#Creation_science. Common features of creation science argument include: creationist cosmologies which accommodate a universe on the order of thousands of years old, criticism of radiometric dating through a technical argument about radiohalos, explanations for the fossil record as a record of the Genesis flood narrative (see flood geology), and explanations for the present diversity as a result of pre-designed genetic variability and partially due to the rapid degradation of the perfect genomes God placed in "created kinds" or "baramins" due to mutations. For another example, Categories of creationists … “Creation science” is the attempt by YEC proponents to use scientific means to bolster their view.“ versus OEC “Intelligent design (ID) is a newcomer to the scene and while it accepts an old Earth and most science, it also claims...” Just seems like a muddled conflation or confusion here, not desirable for an article credibility or reader understanding. Cheers Markbassett (talk) 06:20, 12 April 2023 (UTC)

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@ User:Markbassett, the fact is that ID accepts Old Earth and Young Earth. As the topic expert Eugenie Scott writes on p. 133 of Evolution vs. creationism : an introduction (2009 edition), "Most ID proponents accept an ancient age of the universe and Earth, but there are some prominent ID supporters who are YECs, such as Paul Nelson and John Mark Reynolds. These creation science adherents reject evolution altogether," . The ID movement is a "big tent", avoiding discussion of the age of the Earth, and indeed Paul Nelson was part of the Pajaro Dunes conference where Behe first presented his ideas about "irreducible complexity". TomS TDotO has got it right, in 1999 Johnson said "he wants to temporarily suspend the debate between the young-Earth creationists, who insist that the planet is only 6,000 years old, and old-Earth creationists, who accept that the Earth is ancient.

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Scott does not seem to be speaking of IC in particular, nor "IC argument was already featured in creation science by the mid 1960s". His "anticipated in creation science; much as in Paley's conception" etcetera comes across as a generic that "too complex" or "design" were mentioned before, not that the specific concept Specified Complexity or the assertion of the 'irreducible' concept of this article existed before. Is this just his generic blurb that design was mentioned by CS and Paley before them, or did he provide evidence of someone in CS prior to Behe making a claim "irreducible" ? Cheers Markbassett (talk) 23:07, 14 April 2023 (UTC)

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you could try looking for reliable secondary sources for the ‘legal definition’ of CS:

I can seek some cites from academic sources such as Ronald Numbers or some WP:WEIGHT pop coverage. But really -- I already saw such, that's why I'm saying CS and ID are categorized separately and IC is not indicated as part of CS. At the end of it all, an assertion in "IC argument was already common in creation science by the mid 1960s" (now "featured") has WP:ONUS to provide a cite to such a work.