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Psychology Start‑class High‑importance

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This article was nominated for deletion on March 12, 2007. The result of the discussion was no consensus.

Archives

March - December 2006

Archived discussion

Hi, Dwiki here. I archived the prior discussion as the article was reverted to a point before any of this discussion occurred for reasons of copyright infringement. The discussion is archived here ---> --Dwiki 07:10, 12 March 2007 (UTC)

The article should not have been reverted. There is and was not copyright infringement as the previous talk page discusssions showed. The minor material that was "copyrighted" was posted with permission. DPeterson 13:22, 12 March 2007 (UTC)

I agree, from the archived page the hold of the copyright stated:

The material previously deleted was not "stolen" as it is covered under fair use provisions of the copyright code. But, more to the point, I hold the copyright to that article and I am allowed to use it as I see fit...although I have edited it some here. Dr. Art 22:57, 4 July 2006 (UTC)

JonesRD_talk 16:09, 12 March 2007 (UTC)

It is not permitted under fair user provisions, as it was entirely pasted into this article. If you are the author, however, you need to not only "allow" its use but release the document under the GFDL - see Misplaced Pages:Requesting copyright permission. If you are willing to take this step, the content is permitted. As for whether or not it's a good choice to place so much content into an article that espouses a particular point of view, that's up to the custodians of this article. I'm not willing to invest the energy into this article that it needs, but its largest problem with the pasted content is that the pasted content was a POV essay. The net result is two years later, the article still uses non-neutral language, making assertions that things "should" happen, when it is clearly only the opinion of the author. In this respect, the addition borders on original research. This is the tone of an essay, not a Misplaced Pages article, and thus, why is it in here in the first place? Good luck. --Dwiki 17:28, 12 March 2007 (UTC)

Permission has already been granted by the copyright owner, Dr. Becker-Weidman, per the quote JonesRD provided. DPeterson 17:55, 12 March 2007 (UTC)

I'd feel more comfortable editing this article if I knew that Dr. Becker-Weidman had specifically released the document under the GFDL. There's a procedure for recording this as the case here. It's important to make sure Dr. Becker-Weidman understands the terms of that license and what he allows to occur to the text once it falls under that license. --Dwiki 19:51, 12 March 2007 (UTC)

It's clear that he did as described on the talk page in the archive. DPeterson 20:34, 12 March 2007 (UTC)

Perhaps I'm missing it. Could you please indicate where? Also, was it properly documented as per the procedure indicated in the link I posted before? --Dwiki 20:55, 12 March 2007 (UTC)

Hmmm... as was pointed out on the AfD page, also worth considering here is the Misplaced Pages:Conflict of interest guidelines. --Dwiki 20:11, 12 March 2007 (UTC)

I see no Conflict of interest here. Giving permission to use material is allowed under GFDL.DPeterson 20:34, 12 March 2007 (UTC)

I agree the article has merit and should stay. JohnsonRon 21:22, 12 March 2007 (UTC)

Permission Granted

To be clear, I previously gave permission for my article from my website to be used and licensed the contribution in 2005, or whenever it was posted, under GFDL,

Copyright (c) YEAR YOUR NAME.

Permission is granted to copy, distribute and/or modify this document under the terms of the GNU Free Documentation License, Version 1.2 or any later version published by the Free Software Foundation; with no Invariant Sections, no Front-Cover Texts, and no Back-Cover Texts. A copy of the license is included in the section entitled "GNU

Free Documentation License".

Dr. Becker-Weidman 18:13, 13 March 2007 (UTC)

Thanks, that clears up that point. RalphLender 18:19, 13 March 2007 (UTC)

Deletion?

'NO' This is an article that has had a great deal of discussion and editing and addresses an important topic in psychology and mental health treatment. References and sources cited clearly bear this out. DPeterson 13:22, 12 March 2007 (UTC)

delete?

do not delete this. rate it C or D but don't delete it.

harlequence

Article controversy

Misplaced Pages is not a place to republish entire articles - Wikisource is thataway. Misplaced Pages is an encyclopedia, and that means articles should be summaries. The article that's being copy-pasted here is far too detailed, written in an inappropriate tone and reads as an apparent diagnosis/treatment guide. That's not what Misplaced Pages is for. FCYTravis 02:50, 16 March 2007 (UTC)

Others disagree with you on this point, so a better approach than wholesale deletion would be to improve the article by judicious editing. This would lead to a consensus, which had been achieved on this page previously. Wholesale deletions are not constructive or consistent with Misplaced Pages editing practices. DPeterson 12:43, 16 March 2007 (UTC)

• I agree with you, Travis. The article reads like sheer PR.--DorisH 12:52, 16 March 2007 (UTC)

I agree with both points of view here. Rather than engage in a revert war...which is just not productive, I will restore the section deleted and make some edits to improve it. I invite other editors to contribute to improving this article by cooperative editing. MarkWood 15:27, 16 March 2007 (UTC)

'Note that the aricle is being considered for deletion and "blanking" of the article or large sections of it is prohibited.' MarkWood 15:34, 16 March 2007 (UTC)

• MarkWood makes a good point...don't blank the article...edit to improve it...BTW, I like the edits you've made in the article MarkWood, it is much improved. JonesRD_talk 16:06, 16 March 2007 (UTC)

There, judicious editing done. Misplaced Pages articles should be summaries of main and important points, not detailed guides listing every single bullet-point symptom and instructing on treatment therapies from a single POV. Furthermore, I've removed the puffery language like "leading theory" and whatnot, unless sources can be provided for those statements. The article in question is also written in an inappropriate tone for an encyclopedia. "Attachment is fundamental to healthy development, normal personality, and the capacity to form healthy and authentic emotional relationships (O'Connor & Zeanah). How can one determine whether a child has attachment issues that require attention?" - That block is entirely useless here. We can't assert that it's fundamental. We can't ask questions in the text. We can't tell people to go see a licensed health care provider if someone's exhibiting XYZ symptoms. That is not what Misplaced Pages is for. The entire article is written that way, and hence is not appropriate. Please do not reinsert the text in question, because it's not an encyclopedia article, it's a how-to guide. If you want the whole unedited article on the Web, Wikisource is thataway. FCYTravis 16:33, 16 March 2007 (UTC)

• I've taken a stab at some editing here and added a citation. DPeterson 16:53, 16 March 2007 (UTC)

• I have added a few additional references and done some editing to clarify a few things. As an article that discusses a "disorder," suggesting that an individual seek professional consultation regarding that person's specific situation seems quite legit. If a person (parent or teacher, for example) has a concern about a child's behavior that is a legit basis for seeking guidance. Seems very appropriate to me. SamDavidson 18:34, 16 March 2007 (UTC)

• What it seems to you is not relevant. Please see manual of style and neutral point of view. We are not a how-to guide. FCYTravis 18:39, 16 March 2007 (UTC)
• Please see articles such as Common cold. The "symptoms" section is a bit more than a paragraph, sourced and written from a dispassionate voice. This is how this article should look. We do not need to go into excruciating detail. FCYTravis 18:41, 16 March 2007 (UTC)

Your complete deletion rather than editing as you suggested is really an abuse of editing. As an administrator, you should behavior in a manner more consistent with Misplaced Pages practices. JohnsonRon 19:21, 16 March 2007 (UTC)

This for example:

What are the subtle signs of attachment issues?

1. Sensitivity to rejection and to disruptions in the normally attuned connection between mother and child
2. Avoiding comfort when the child’s feelings are hurt, although the child will turn to the parent for comfort when physically hurt
3. Difficulty discussing angry feelings or hurt feelings
4. Over-valuing looks, appearances, and clothes
5. Sleep disturbances, not wanting to sleep alone
6. Precocious independence - a level of independence that is more frequently seen in slightly older children
7. Reticence and anxiety about changes
8. Picking at scabs and sores
9. Secretiveness
10. Difficulty tolerating correction or criticism

is completely irrelevant to the topic attachment disorder.--DorisH 19:32, 16 March 2007 (UTC)

Blanking this page, or large sections of it may be considered vandalism and are not allowed...as I mentioned on your talk page, you may not be aware of that, but please discontinue such behavior now that you are aware. JohnsonRon 19:37, 16 March 2007 (UTC)

...and...? We are eagerly waiting for a response that gives a reason for your repeated insertion of Becker-Waidmans PR-material?--DorisH 19:47, 16 March 2007 (UTC)

I would have to agree that blanking large sections of an article can be seen as vandalism and you should take note of that. A much better approach, Doris, would be to collaborative try to edit the article and build consensus, not create and continue an edit war. While your views may be in the minority here, you will find that your suggestions will be respected if you Assume Good Faith and act to collaborate with others rather than fight other editors. DPeterson 20:29, 16 March 2007 (UTC)

I would have to agree that inserting a how-to-guide from another website is inappropriate and you should take note of that. A much better approach, Peterson, would be to collaboratively try to edit the article and build consensus, not create and continue an edit war. While your views may be in the minority here, you will find that your suggestions will be respected if you Assume Good Faith and act to collaborate with others rather than fight other editors. (Sorry for the sarcasm, but... :D)--DorisH 21:03, 16 March 2007 (UTC)

Removing large sections of text that are copy-pasted in from an external source and which are written in an entirely unencyclopedic tone is hardly vandalism. I have repeatedly pointed out that the sections in question are unacceptable, because they speak from an active voice and presume to assert facts not in evidence without attribution. You are attempting to enforce the wholesale addition of material, and that won't fly. The text in question has been GFDLed, which means, guess what, anyone gets to bend, fold, spindle and/or mutilate it. That's what Misplaced Pages's about - not copy-pasting a clearly-polemic pro-single-POV article into a text box and claiming it can't be touched. As for the "other editors," they're transparently single-purpose accounts which conveniently show up every time you need them to create false consensus for your POV on attachment-related articles, so you can dispense with the charade. FCYTravis 10:06, 17 March 2007 (UTC)

Yes, Misplaced Pages policy clearly states that such blanking can be considered vandalism. You, you have made your point...but there are many others who disagree with you, therefore blanking is in appropriate. A better approach is to edit the article to improve it, not just hack away at it. Building consensus and collaborative editing is a corner-stone of Misplaced Pages. In fact, other editors here have begun to edit the sections in ways that take your view into account. You should either let that happen, or help. You are misrepresenting my views here FCYTravis. I am not saying that the article or sections cannot be touched...only that it be improved, as other editors have begun to do in a collaborative and cooperative fashion. Your last comments meet the criteria for Personal Attacks and should stop. It is not construtive. As an administrator, I'd expect better of you. DPeterson 12:32, 17 March 2007 (UTC)

Open questions for discussion

• The following unsourced section:

What are the subtle signs of attachment issues?

1. Sensitivity to rejection and to disruptions in the normally attuned connection between mother and child
2. Avoiding comfort when the child’s feelings are hurt, although the child will turn to the parent for comfort when physically hurt
3. Difficulty discussing angry feelings or hurt feelings
4. Over-valuing looks, appearances, and clothes
5. Sleep disturbances, not wanting to sleep alone
6. Precocious independence - a level of independence that is more frequently seen in slightly older children
7. Reticence and anxiety about changes
8. Picking at scabs and sores
9. Secretiveness
10. Difficulty tolerating correction or criticism

is completely irrelevant to the topic attachment disorder.--DorisH 19:32, 16 March 2007 (UTC)

• Please see articles such as Common cold. The "symptoms" section is a bit more than a paragraph, sourced and written from a dispassionate voice. This is how this article should look. We do not need to go into excruciating detail. FCYTravis 18:41, 16 March 2007 (UTC)

• What it seems to you is not relevant. Please see manual of style and neutral point of view. We are not a how-to guide. FCYTravis 18:39, 16 March 2007 (UTC)

• Bulk of article is a copy-pasted copyrighted article taken from here. It was sort-of covertly added here. There has been no assurance Dr. Becker-Wiedman has released this article under the GFDL. In addition, this article is written in a non-encyclopedic tone, and advocates a specific pro-Attachment POV in many places. I think it would be better to just start over from scratch as this is such a controversial topic, and both sides seem quite entrenched. --Dwiki 01:47, 12 March 2007 (UTC)

Questions still open for discussion

1. The following unsourced section: What are the subtle signs of attachment issues? Sensitivity to rejection and to disruptions in the normally attuned connection between mother and child, Avoiding comfort when the child’s feelings are hurt, although the child will turn to the parent for comfort when physically hurt; Difficulty discussing angry feelings or hurt feelings; Over-valuing looks, appearances, and clothes;Sleep disturbances, not wanting to sleep alone;Precocious independence - a level of independence that is more frequently seen in slightly older children; Reticence and anxiety about changes; Picking at scabs and sores; Secretiveness; Difficulty tolerating correction or criticism; is completely irrelevant to the topic attachment disorder.--DorisH 19:32, 16 March 2007 (UTC)
2. Please see articles such as Common cold. The "symptoms" section is a bit more than a paragraph, sourced and written from a dispassionate voice. This is how this article should look. We do not need to go into excruciating detail. FCYTravis 18:41, 16 March 2007 (UTC)
3. What it seems to you is not relevant. Please see manual of style and neutral point of view. We are not a how-to guide. FCYTravis 18:39, 16 March 2007 (UTC)
4. Bulk of article is a copy-pasted copyrighted article taken from here. It was sort-of covertly added here. There has been no assurance Dr. Becker-Wiedman has released this article under the GFDL. In addition, this article is written in a non-encyclopedic tone, and advocates a specific pro-Attachment POV in many places. I think it would be better to just start over from scratch as this is such a controversial topic, and both sides seem quite entrenched. --Dwiki 01:47, 12 March 2007 (UTC)
5. Mentioned on AfD by me before: Attachment disorder understood in the medical scientific sense, as used by clinical psychologists and psychiatrists is duplicated at Reactive attachment disorder. The current article is at best an article on Attachment problems. It is questionable if an article on attachment problems is encyclopedic.--DorisH 13:59, 17 March 2007 (UTC)

"Attachment Disorder" is not the same as Reactive Attachment Disorder. RAD is a psychiatirc diagnosis (DSM-IV-TR). Attachment Disorder is a loosly used ill-defined term used in the popular literature and, as such, deserves an encyclopedia article.DPeterson 14:23, 17 March 2007 (UTC)

I think the specifics are useful. If you look at other articles on mental disorders there is usually the detailed statement of the DSM criteria. In this instance, this is not a DSM diagnosis, but is a term used across the internet...so more details are better than fewer. JonesRD_talk 15:52, 17 March 2007 (UTC)

Summary

The section sums up some of the common criticism of this article by DorisH and FCYTravis. It serves the purpose of documenting what people (those two) criticize, since changes cannot be made.

1. many people on the archived deletion debate think the article needs a rewrite

:I only see one or two, while there are several who disagree with you. JohnsonRon 16:51, 17 March 2007 (UTC)

If you can see only one or two how come three have reverted to the start of a rewrite by Dhartung during the last few days? The history shows numerous attempts at rewrites, the archived talk-pages also shows several suggestions.--DorisH 17:12, 17 March 2007 (UTC)

1. definition unclear

Yes, it is unclear since it is not a term defined in the DSM or other such text.JohnsonRon 16:51, 17 March 2007 (UTC)

...this is the point where you should suggest a viable definition.--DorisH 17:12, 17 March 2007 (UTC)

1. relationship to reactive attachment disorder

Addressed: not related, not a DSM diagnosis as is reactive attachment disorder...read comments above.JohnsonRon 16:51, 17 March 2007 (UTC)

Reactive attachment disorder also includes the equivalent definition in the ICD, the uninhibited form is called attachment disorder.--DorisH 17:12, 17 March 2007 (UTC)

1. questions as to whether an ill defined phenomenon such as attachment problems should have an entry in an encylcopedia

'Already addressed above. Terms and concepts in popular culture do deserve an article.'JohnsonRon 16:51, 17 March 2007 (UTC)

should Bowlby be drawn into this then? The critics of popular psychology should also be included.--DorisH 17:12, 17 March 2007 (UTC)

1. tone: use of questions, suggestion to go and see a therapist.

'What is the problem with questions or suggestions of seek professional help?'JohnsonRon 16:51, 17 March 2007 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages is called the 💕 because we are trying to write an encyclopedia. Therefore the articles, all articles, including this one, have to be written in an encyclopedic tone.--DorisH 17:12, 17 March 2007 (UTC)

1. content is how-to-guide

'How so? I don't see that.'JohnsonRon 16:51, 17 March 2007 (UTC)

f. i. instead of giving a summary of the symptoms it presents itself as a sort of how-do-I-diagnose-my-kids-myself.--DorisH 17:12, 17 March 2007 (UTC)

1. lacks references

'extensive references are cited in the article.'JohnsonRon 16:51, 17 March 2007 (UTC)

the article would have to be plastered with {{cn}}--DorisH 17:12, 17 March 2007 (UTC)

1. extensive description of 'symptoms' (whose property of being symptoms is also disputed)

'What is wrong with this when we are discussing an ill-defined term? State your objection clearly, please.'JohnsonRon 16:51, 17 March 2007 (UTC)

the comparison with the common cold, for instance as ignored above.--DorisH 17:12, 17 March 2007 (UTC)

1. spam-links at the bottom

'????'JohnsonRon 16:51, 17 March 2007 (UTC)

link to Becker-Weidmans site--DorisH 17:12, 17 March 2007 (UTC)

1. content could be considered spam, as it quoted almost verbatim from one of the spam-links.

'How so? Please explain in detail to make yourself clear.'JohnsonRon 16:51, 17 March 2007 (UTC)

Extensive discussion of this was on the deletion-discussion. It was one of the reasons it was listed. Among others, the nature of this piece of writing being authored by a proponent of attachment therapy, point to a conflict of interest which is obvious to people who have experience with pr-work, and also many ordinary consumers. The absence of criticism, the absence of the description of the opposite view are always signs of a pr-text. WP:COI is highly critical of people making any edits at all to articles that they have a financial interest in, let alone write and publish an entire article on Misplaced Pages.--DorisH 17:12, 17 March 2007 (UTC)

1. pov-problems: does not quote literature that critizes the assumption that the described behaviors that are unwanted by parents and therapist actually constitute a disorder or even a problem or an 'issue'

'Not a POV issue. Article references much material in professional peer-reviewed materials.'JohnsonRon 16:51, 17 March 2007 (UTC)

the article lacks a section criticism.--DorisH 17:12, 17 March 2007 (UTC)

1. does not provide a worldwide view

Respond and discuss in a manner that addresses the listed issues.--DorisH 16:34, 17 March 2007 (UTC)

'DorisH, you need to explain may of your quesitions and state clearly your concern or objections. Most of these have already been addressed in previous sections here or in the archive. I suggest you read the archive to find the answers to your questions and that you detail what are your concerns.JohnsonRon 16:51, 17 March 2007 (UTC)

I hope that my comments above are helpful in explaining things. You'd asked for an expert RfC in clinical psych and that is my background/training. JohnsonRon 16:57, 17 March 2007 (UTC)

Can you verify your credentials then?--DorisH 17:15, 17 March 2007 (UTC)

And my background is also in psychology and clinical work. I have a Ph.D....Since you requested comment. Do you, Doris, have an advanced clinical degree? DPeterson 17:31, 17 March 2007 (UTC)

Can you verify your credentials then, as per the current proposal by Jimbo? I for my part am most certainly not going to give you any personal details on myself. A verfication of both of your credentials could be done if you want that. It would also clear up the concerns of your ]. Are you involved with some sort of therapy for perceived or real attachment disorders? Does your income depend on some sort of therapy for this? Are you employed by someone who provides these services? --DorisH 17:40, 17 March 2007 (UTC)

Your response or comment does not seem consistent with Assume good faith; furthermore, implying negative motivations, as you do, is not only not assuming good faith, but borders on Personal attacks; perhaps. One does wonder about your affiliations given your diatribes...but I will continue to put that aside, Assume good faith, and try to work with you to build a consensus by editing and improving this article and the others we both seem interested in, in a collaborative and cooperative manner. DPeterson 18:39, 17 March 2007 (UTC)

Be constructive and stop blanking the article

Doris, your comments here are not consistent with Misplaced Pages policies and practices. Personal Attacks are frowned upon. Assume Good Faith means tyring to work together and not being nasty. To repeat my earlier comment,

A much better approach, Doris, would be to collaborative try to edit the article and build consensus, not create and continue an edit war. While your views may be in the minority here, you will find that your suggestions will be respected if you Assume Good Faith and act to collaborate with others rather than fight other editors.

I encourage you to try this approach and try to work with other editors in a collaborative manner. DPeterson 21:17, 16 March 2007 (UTC)

It is vandalims to remove another's comments on the talk page. You have been warned a few times now about blanking pages and now about removing other's comments. Please stop. DPeterson 12:27, 17 March 2007 (UTC)

Doris, please do not disrupt this talk page by copying comments verbatim and then making a new section. Comments and additions belong in the section to which they relate. Creating a "new" section merely to "bury" comments you may not like is not consistent Misplaced Pages policy and practices. Your last comment above should be at the end of the previous section and you should not have merely copied the comments you like, create a new section and then add your comments. This is disruptive to the flow. Please stop. You have been asked to stop being disruptive by several other editors now. DPeterson 14:23, 17 March 2007 (UTC)

'DORISH, PLEASE DO NOT CHANGE THE ORDER OF SECTIONS.'JohnsonRon 16:51, 17 March 2007 (UTC)

I wonder why are you changing the chronological order by moving this section down here? Could you answer that question please?--DorisH 16:56, 17 March 2007 (UTC)

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