Talk:Emperor of India: Difference between revisions

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Revision as of 15:48, 15 June 2023 editDrKay (talk \| contribs)Autopatrolled, Administrators159,636 editsNo edit summary← Previous edit		Revision as of 08:02, 3 August 2023 edit undoPadFoot2008 (talk \| contribs)Extended confirmed users9,665 edits →No "Indian Empire": Modified my comment a bit to remove repeating segment (probably syntax error).Tags: Mobile edit Mobile web edit Advanced mobile editNext edit →
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	::Indian subcontinent includes other states like Nepal, Bhutan, Portugal (State of India) and France (French Settlements in India). Using India will be sufficient as most people do know what India meant before 1947 (or specifically 1858 to 1947) and is likely to not cause confusion. The title itself says "Emperor of India", and mentioning the name of the state rather than an ambiguous and non corresponding region is better. Please don't make this into a big issue. It's an extremely small change. Also, I apologise for edit warring previously.		::Indian subcontinent includes other states like Nepal, Bhutan, Portugal (State of India) and France (French Settlements in India). Using India will be sufficient as most people do know what India meant before 1947 (or specifically 1858 to 1947) and is likely to not cause confusion. The title itself says "Emperor of India", and mentioning the name of the state rather than an ambiguous and non corresponding region is better. Please don't make this into a big issue. It's an extremely small change. Also, I apologise for edit warring previously.
	::Also, India never became India in 1947, rather it '''remained''' India. In 1947, India was granted independence and not "created".		::Also, India never became India in 1947, rather it '''remained''' India. In 1947, India was granted independence and not "created".
	::And, regarding the proclamation of the Indian Empire, if you'd check proclamations of other "empires" like Russia and Germany, they too were never proclaimed. Rather, on that particular day, the monarch was proclaimed as the Emperor of India, Emperor of All Russias and German Emperor respectively. Also, the Indian Empire was much different from the British Empire. The British Empire was a colonial empire comprising the United Kingdom, the Indian Empire, Dominion of Canada, and other colonies, similar to French colonial empire and German colonial (note the term "colonial") while the Indian Empire was the name of a state (though, non-sovereign) similar to Russian Empire and German Empire. As for official-ness, I'd prefer not to debate much about it as I've not arguing for the inclusion of "Indian Empire", but you see, in the modern day Republic of India, no legislation or even the Constitution ever used used the term "Republic of India", rather only used "India" or "the Union". However, the Indian passport uses the term "Republic of India" up front on its blue cover. Similarly, in the Indian Empire too, neither Indian legislation nor British legislation used the term "Indian Empire" or "Empire of India", but rather used "India". But the British Indian passport, used the term "Indian Empire" up front on its blue cover and		::And, regarding the proclamation of the Indian Empire, if you'd check proclamations of other "empires" like Russia and Germany, they too were never proclaimed. Rather, on that particular day, the monarch was proclaimed as the Emperor of India, Emperor of All Russias and German Emperor respectively. Also, the Indian Empire was much different from the British Empire. The British Empire was a colonial empire comprising the United Kingdom, the Indian Empire, Dominion of Canada, and other colonies, similar to French colonial empire and German colonial (note the term "colonial") while the Indian Empire was the name of a state (though, non-sovereign) similar to Russian Empire and German Empire. As for official-ness, I'd prefer not to debate much about it as I've not arguing for the inclusion of "Indian Empire", but you see, in the modern day Republic of India, no legislation or even the Constitution ever used used the term "Republic of India", rather only used "India" or "the Union". However, the Indian passport uses the term "Republic of India" up front on its blue cover. Similarly, in the Indian Empire too, neither Indian legislation nor British legislation used the term "Indian Empire" or "Empire of India", but rather used "India". But the British Indian passport, used the term "Indian Empire" up front on its blue cover and "Empire of India" on its front page. Sources – , , , . A quick google search of will show you many more sources. ] (]) 12:13, 12 June 2023 (UTC)
	::Indian subcontinent includes other states like Nepal, Bhutan, Portugal (State of India) and France (French Settlements in India), not just India. Using "India" will be sufficient as most people do know what India meant before 1947 (or specifically, from 1858 to 1947) and is likely to not cause confusion. The title itself says "Emperor of India", and mentioning the name of the state rather than an ambiguous and non corresponding region is better. Please don't make this into a big issue. It's an extremely small change.
	::Also, India didn't ''become'' India in 1947, rather, it ''remained'' India in 1947. In 1947, India was granted independence and not "created".
	::And, regarding the proclamation of the Indian Empire, if you'd check proclamations of other "empires" like Russia and Germany, they too were never proclaimed. Rather, on that particular day, the monarch was proclaimed as the Emperor of India, Emperor of All Russias and German Emperor respectively. Also, the Indian Empire was much different from the British Empire. The British Empire was a colonial empire comprising the United Kingdom, the Indian Empire, Dominion of Canada, and other colonies, similar to French colonial empire and German colonial (note the term "colonial") while the Indian Empire was the name of a state (though, non-sovereign) similar to Russian Empire and German Empire. As for official-ness of the term, I'd prefer not to debate much about it as I'm not arguing for the inclusion of "Indian Empire", but if you'd see, in the modern day Republic of India, no legislation or even the Constitution ever used the term "Republic of India", rather only used "India" or "the Union". However, the Indian passport uses the term "Republic of India" up front on its blue cover. Similarly, in the Indian Empire too, neither Indian legislation nor British legislation used the term "Indian Empire" or "Empire of India", but rather used "India". But the British Indian passport, used the term "Indian Empire" up front on its blue cover and "Empire of India" on its front page. Sources – , , , . A quick google search of will show you many more sources. ] (]) 12:13, 12 June 2023 (UTC)
	:::It's no use calling the state before and after the partition the same thing. That's obviously confusing and unhelpful. If you don't like "]" or "]" then suggest another specific alternative, such as "] and the ]" or "British territories in the Indian subcontinent". There are plenty of options that are clear. We don't have to use official names or even a precise description. But to be frank, I think you're being unnecessarily, indeed disruptively, pedantic by claiming that "Indian Empire" or "British India" is somehow wrong. It's not wrong. It's just a convenient shorthand for "British territories in the Indian subcontinent". ] (]) 08:00, 13 June 2023 (UTC)		:::It's no use calling the state before and after the partition the same thing. That's obviously confusing and unhelpful. If you don't like "]" or "]" then suggest another specific alternative, such as "] and the ]" or "British territories in the Indian subcontinent". There are plenty of options that are clear. We don't have to use official names or even a precise description. But to be frank, I think you're being unnecessarily, indeed disruptively, pedantic by claiming that "Indian Empire" or "British India" is somehow wrong. It's not wrong. It's just a convenient shorthand for "British territories in the Indian subcontinent". ] (]) 08:00, 13 June 2023 (UTC)
	::::I'm all right with Indian Empire. I never claimed it was wrong. I'm adding that then.		::::I'm all right with Indian Empire. I never claimed it was wrong. I'm adding that then.

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No "Indian Empire"

Legally Parliament and the throne never officially proclaimed an "Indian Empire" -- the term was informally used for the British Raj. For that matter, "British Empire" was also an informal term. Rjensen (talk) 17:55, 7 June 2023 (UTC)

Saying 'India' became 'India' is equally, if not more, nonsensical. It's also ungrammatical to call it 'the India'. DrKay (talk) 07:51, 11 June 2023 (UTC)

Indian subcontinent includes other states like Nepal, Bhutan, Portugal (State of India) and France (French Settlements in India). Using India will be sufficient as most people do know what India meant before 1947 (or specifically 1858 to 1947) and is likely to not cause confusion. The title itself says "Emperor of India", and mentioning the name of the state rather than an ambiguous and non corresponding region is better. Please don't make this into a big issue. It's an extremely small change. Also, I apologise for edit warring previously.

Also, India never became India in 1947, rather it remained India. In 1947, India was granted independence and not "created".

And, regarding the proclamation of the Indian Empire, if you'd check proclamations of other "empires" like Russia and Germany, they too were never proclaimed. Rather, on that particular day, the monarch was proclaimed as the Emperor of India, Emperor of All Russias and German Emperor respectively. Also, the Indian Empire was much different from the British Empire. The British Empire was a colonial empire comprising the United Kingdom, the Indian Empire, Dominion of Canada, and other colonies, similar to French colonial empire and German colonial (note the term "colonial") while the Indian Empire was the name of a state (though, non-sovereign) similar to Russian Empire and German Empire. As for official-ness, I'd prefer not to debate much about it as I've not arguing for the inclusion of "Indian Empire", but you see, in the modern day Republic of India, no legislation or even the Constitution ever used used the term "Republic of India", rather only used "India" or "the Union". However, the Indian passport uses the term "Republic of India" up front on its blue cover. Similarly, in the Indian Empire too, neither Indian legislation nor British legislation used the term "Indian Empire" or "Empire of India", but rather used "India". But the British Indian passport, used the term "Indian Empire" up front on its blue cover and "Empire of India" on its front page. Sources – The Shadows of Men, Enemy of the Raj, Chasing Terrorists, The Heavens We Chase. A quick google search of "British Indian passport""Indian Empire" will show you many more sources. PadFoot2008 (talk) 12:13, 12 June 2023 (UTC)

It's no use calling the state before and after the partition the same thing. That's obviously confusing and unhelpful. If you don't like "Indian Empire" or "Indian subcontinent" then suggest another specific alternative, such as "British India and the princely states" or "British territories in the Indian subcontinent". There are plenty of options that are clear. We don't have to use official names or even a precise description. But to be frank, I think you're being unnecessarily, indeed disruptively, pedantic by claiming that "Indian Empire" or "British India" is somehow wrong. It's not wrong. It's just a convenient shorthand for "British territories in the Indian subcontinent". Celia Homeford (talk) 08:00, 13 June 2023 (UTC)

I'm all right with Indian Empire. I never claimed it was wrong. I'm adding that then.

British India is however incorrect, as it's used specifically to refer to the directly-administered provinces of India, (excluding the princely states). Thus British India can't be used. Have a look at this image from the Imperial Gazetteer of India.

PadFoot2008 (talk) 11:33, 13 June 2023 (UTC)

I don't see what that is supposed to show or prove. It puts Nepal, Bhutan, Burma, etc. inside British India, which is marked on the map by a red border line (as indicated in the key bottom left). Celia Homeford (talk) 12:59, 13 June 2023 (UTC)

No, the key says British India colored red. The red line doesn't mark British India. The territory colored red shows British India and those colored yellow shows princely states. Those colored white outside the Indian Empire. PadFoot2008 (talk) 14:35, 13 June 2023 (UTC)

Role

The title did not come with any official role. The role of the monarch was identical before and after the 1876 act. The role of the King in India and Pakistan between 1947 and 1948 was also totally unchanged between 1948 and 1950 in India and 1948 to 1952 in Pakistan. DrKay (talk) 15:48, 15 June 2023 (UTC)

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