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:I noted the definition of a quack and '''fully agree''' that homeopathy is quackery/health fraud. However, as a general term, "fraud" unquestionably includes intent. Now, in a parallel point of discussion about the article, the lead's mentioning of fraud ''alongside quackery, which is equivalent to health fraud'', is '''not in the sources'''. Furthermore, one source is completely irrelevant and mentions neither. Regarding the category, it is not uncontroversial. In general, I don't see how the reference to the lone word "fraud" can be helpful, as the article clearly establishes that homeopathy is health fraud. This is my final position. ] (]) 20:26, 1 August 2023 (UTC)
:I noted the definition of a quack and '''fully agree''' that homeopathy is quackery/health fraud. However, as a general term, "fraud" unquestionably includes intent. Now, in a parallel point of discussion about the article, the lead's mentioning of fraud ''alongside quackery, which is equivalent to health fraud'', is '''not in the sources'''. Furthermore, one source is completely irrelevant and mentions neither. Regarding the category, it is not uncontroversial. In general, I don't see how the reference to the lone word "fraud" can be helpful, as the article clearly establishes that homeopathy is health fraud. This is my final position. ] (]) 20:26, 1 August 2023 (UTC)
::I'm not very well-read on American politics, but I don't think Trump is a fair analogy to this. A lie is an intentionally false statement. A quick read of ] shows that the term "lie" came in favor due to "frequent repetition of claims he <u>''knew''</u> to be false" -- probably much easier to ascertain about one person than thousands of homeo-quacks, for whom there would really need to be some reliable sources establishing this. In India, the system is so skewed that there is a ] for quackery, and so the "vast majority of people" don't know better and it's not "obvious common sense." ] (]) 20:34, 1 August 2023 (UTC)
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Q1: Should material critical of homeopathy be in the article? (Yes.)
A1: Yes. Material critical of homeopathy must be included in the article. The articles on Misplaced Pages include information from all significant points of view. This is summarized in the policy pages which can be accessed from the Neutral point of view policy. This article strives to conform to Misplaced Pages policies, which dictate that a substantial fraction of articles in fringe areas be devoted to mainstream views of those topics.
Q2: Should material critical of homeopathy be in the lead? (Yes.)
A2: Yes. Material critical of homeopathy belongs in the lead section. The lead must contain a summary of all the material in the article, including the critical material. This is described further in the Lead section guideline.
Q3: Is the negative material in the article NPOV? (Yes.)
A3: Yes. Including negative material is part of achieving a neutral article. A neutral point of view does not necessarily equate to a sympathetic point of view. Neutrality is achieved by including all points of view – both positive and negative – in rough proportion to their prominence.
Q4: Does Misplaced Pages consider homeopathy a fringe theory? (Yes.)
A4: Yes. Homeopathy is described as a fringe medical system in sources reliable to make the distinction. This is defined by the Fringe theories guideline, which explains: We use the term fringe theory in a very broad sense to describe ideas that depart significantly from the prevailing or mainstream view in its particular field of study.
Since the collective weight of peer-reviewed studies does not support the efficacy of homeopathy, it departs significantly enough from the mainstream view of science to be considered a fringe theory.
References
Jonas, WB; Ives, JA (February 2008). "Should we explore the clinical utility of hormesis". Human & Experimental Toxicology. 27 (2): 123–127. PMID18480136.
Q5: Should studies that show that homeopathy does not work go into the article? (Yes.)
A5: Yes. Studies that show that homeopathy does not work are part of a full treatment of the topic and should go into the article. Misplaced Pages is not the place to right great wrongs. Non-experts have suggested that all the studies that show homeopathy does not work are faulty studies and are biased, but this has not been borne out by the mainstream scientific community.
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Q7: Should alleged proof that homeopathy works be included in the article? (No.)
A7: No. Alleged proof that homeopathy works should not be included in the article. That is because no such proof has come from reliable sources. If you have found a reliable source, such as an academic study, that you think should be included, you can propose it for inclusion on the article’s talk page. Note that we do not have room for all material, both positive and negative. We try to sample some of each and report them according to their prominence.
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A8: No. Sources critical of homeopathy should be integrated normally in the course of presenting the topic and its reception, not shunted into a single criticism section. Such segregation is generally frowned upon as poor writing style on Misplaced Pages.
Q9: Should the article mention that homeopathy might work by some as-yet undiscovered mechanism? (No.)
A9: No. The article should not mention that homeopathy might work by some as-yet undiscovered mechanism. Misplaced Pages is not a place for original research or speculation.
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Q11: Should the article characterize homeopathy as a blatant fraud and quackery? (No.)
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Syeda ShahBano Ijaz (29 May 2023). "How Conflicts and Population Loss Led to the Rise of English Misplaced Pages's Credibility". American Political Science Association. Retrieved 30 May 2023. Take the example of the Misplaced Pages page on homeopathy: from 2001-2006, the lead on the page described homeopathy as a "controversial system of alternative medicine." From 2006-2013, the content changed to mentioning that homeopathy has been "regarded as pseudoscience" and sharing that there is a "lack of convincing scientific evidence confirming its efficacy." By 2015, this description had stabilized to "homeopathy is a pseudoscience."
Basic Research duckweed/ arsenic
In Switzerland at the University of Bern at the Institute of Complementary and Integrative Medicine Classical Homeopathy / Potentiazed Substancesare researched.University of Bern,Institute of Complementary and Integrative Medicine, Inselspital Bern, Freiburgstrasse 46, CH-3010 Bern
This study evaluated the effects with arsenic-stressed duckweed (Lemna gibba L.). The test substances were applied and compared with controls (unsuccussed and succussed water) regarding their influence on the plant's growth rate. Duckweed was stressed with arsenic. Afterwards, plants grew in either potentized substances or water controls All experiments were randomized and blinded.
In Germany the work on duckweed is widely accepted Yes, the DZVhÄ and other quackery lobby groups have been loud about it, and the coverage by journalists has been particularly gullible. But that is not what counts here.
That duckweed paper is a primary source, by at least one nominally incompetent author (a physicist). Not WP:MEDRS (read it).
There must be hundreds of bad studies on homeopathy, and you can probably find all of them in the archives because someone who is unfamiliar with Misplaced Pages standards wanted to include them.
Dann kommt ein „spektakuläres Experiment“ mit Wasserlinsen, diesmal von Stephan Baumgartner der Uni Bern. Dieser versucht seit vielen Jahren mit verschiedensten Methoden Unterschiede zwischen homöopathisch verschütteltem und ganz friedlichem normalen Wasser herbeizumessen. Hier hat er kleine Wasserpflanzen mit Arsen vergiftet, um sie dann mit „potenziertem“ Arsen wieder zu heilen. Lassen wir mal außen vor, dass ein Patientengespräch mit Wasserlinsen noch schwieriger ist: Das Ergebnis wurde noch nie unabhängig bestätigt, also nehmen wir es einfach mal hin, ohne dass wir ihm viel Beachtung schenken müssen.
long2:
Es scheint angebracht, weitere Forschung zu betreiben, weil das, was im Moment vorliegt, nicht genügt und zu viele Fragen unbeantwortet lässt. Sollten unabhängig replizierte Studien mit veröffentlichten Daten tatsächlich zum Schluss kommen, es gebe Effekte, wäre dies allemal willkommen. Wer wäre denn ernsthaft dagegen, etwas Neues über die Welt zu lernen?
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.
Hello,
I've been searching really hard for any other form of medication for Type 1 diabetes besides the blood testing and injections every single dday.And homeopathy was recommended. But I'm not seeing it being mentioned in all the information I've found so far. Can someone please help me with any info on this. 105.8.1.89 (talk) 12:17, 30 November 2022 (UTC)
As the article says, homeopathy is not useful for any medical condition. And I would strongly suggest not using any alternative medical "remedies" for something as dangerous as diabetes - if there were any real alternative to the usual regimen, I'm sure it would be famous. Black Kite (talk)12:30, 30 November 2022 (UTC)
This edit request has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request.
The following text in the first section of the article is an issue: "The trend corresponded with the rise of the New Age movement, and may be in part due to chemophobia, an irrational preference for "natural" products". I do not contest any of the claims of the statement except the wording following "chemophobia". The use of the word "irrational" and placing the word "natural" in quotes make explicit and implied claims that are not only foolish, but deeply disrespectful. Chemophobia, as stated in its own Misplaced Pages article, is "an aversion to or prejudice against chemicals or chemistry". One cannot simply paint all chemophobia as irrational, even if some instances are. There have been many instances of abuse, misuse and misunderstanding of chemistry and pharmaceutical chemicals that have caused harm. For example, heroin was invented to help people overcome morphine addiction. We know how that went. Many medicines have serious and sometimes harmful side effects. While all this does not negate the value of biomedicine or pharmaceuticals, it is disrespectful and shortsighted to say that someone who fears putting manufactured chemicals into their body is "irrational". This is especially important if you consider the historical and societal context. For example, minority groups in the USA have historically been the target of harmful and sometimes non-consensual medical experimentation. To call someone with this background irrational for mistrusting pharmaceuticals - a large part of the medical industry - is also ignorant and insulting towards their very real history of pain. Additionally, putting "natural" in quotes as the author does is unnecessary and lends a sarcastic tone. It implies that there is something misguided about wanting to use natural products, or perhaps that there is no difference between what they call natural and manufactured chemicals. Again, this is disrespectful to large swathes of people and cultures. It is completely sensible to hold the opinion that a plant is more natural than something produced in a lab. In Japan, most physicians are trained in a type of herbal medicine. I hope the author is not implying that the herbal medicine traditions of such a scientifically accomplished country are something to be sneered at.
Please do not think that I am merely nitpicking semantics by writing this. Though the section of text I addressed is small and subtle, it is very important. I will explain why. Such language disparages the huge number of cultures, histories and worldviews that are not part of the white and christian dominated worldview of modern science and medicine. Holding this worldview is not a problem on its own. It is acceptable for Misplaced Pages to promote the modern scientific worldview. However, it is unacceptable to take that a step further and disrespect those many millions who may think differently. A site so widely used and trusted for accurate information stands to do serious harm through such thoughtless language. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 132.161.244.87 (talk • contribs) 03:19, 5 April 2023 (UTC)
Partly done: I've changed the wording to "an irrational aversion to synthetic chemicals", as I agree that there is an implied POV created by placing 'natural' in quotation marks. However, I've left 'irrational' for the reason that in the context of the article, it does appear to be explicitly referencing irrational fear - in no way does this label all aversion to chemicals irrational, but rather simply refers to the subset of this aversion which is irrational. Tollens (talk) 03:57, 5 April 2023 (UTC)
Consumer Fraud Category?
It is established that homeopathy is Quackery, but Misplaced Pages's definition of Fraud clearly states intentional deception, as opposed to sometimes ignorant deception which is the case with quackery/health fraud. So should this category still apply? No source demonstrates that homeopaths are engaged in (the regular sense, intentional) fraud. In my view, it's like saying that doctors performing bloodletting were frauds -- untrue, they were ignorant. Eroz7 (talk) 15:51, 1 August 2023 (UTC)
Thanks for bringing that to my attention. Those three sources do not characterize homeopathy with the word 'fraud' (I am cleaning this up by removing that word in the lead and removing the ref to the Telegraph article, which mentions nothing about fraud or quackery.)
In general, when homeopathy is referred to as 'fraud' (for example, here in the article), we are talking about health fraud, which, according to the article, involves fraudulent or ignorant practices in healthcare. If we agree on that -- then precisely, not verifiable according to Misplaced Pages:Categorization#Verifiable -- categorization should be uncontroversial, and it is unclear where homeopathy is reliably established as 'intentional fraud'.
My concern, summarized: the category is about fraud, not quackery. Homeopathy is uncontroversially quackery, but we can't say the same for fraud. Obviously, I'm unsure about this, which is why I have put this into the discussion to get an opinion. Quite confusing how health fraud encompasses ignorant practices too, while the English definition of fraud very clearly involves intentional deceit. Want to get experienced editors' opinions on this matter and how categorization works in general (the guide is a bit ambiguous.) Eroz7 (talk) 18:09, 1 August 2023 (UTC)
Well, you can just boldly remove the category if you think it fails verification. Someone might object though and come to this discussion. Also, we shouldn't base our assessment of what fraud, consumer fraud, etc. are upon what the wikipedia articles say they are: whether homeopathy is (consumer) fraud depends solely on what RS say about the matter. ByVarying (talk) 18:57, 1 August 2023 (UTC)
Fair enough, but this is regarding Category:Fraud, which would require some perspective on the definition, right? Plus, as mentioned before, the RS in the lead didn't mention fraud. Eroz7 (talk) 19:08, 1 August 2023 (UTC)
Take this with a pinch of salt, but I would contend that most practitioners, even in the West, actually believe in it. But yes, it is worse in Asia -- in India, it is heavily institutionalized. Hard to say that a considerable fraction of Indian homeopaths are frauds. I just feel that the consumer fraud label doesn't wholly encompass quackery, and it's tough to justify it. Eroz7 (talk) 18:17, 1 August 2023 (UTC)
The FDA definition of health fraud does not require any sort of intent.
“
The Food and Drug Administration (FDA) defines health fraud as the deceptive promotion, advertising, distribution, or sale of a product represented as being effective to prevent, diagnose, treat, cure, or lessen an illness or condition, or provide another beneficial effect on health, but that has not been scientifically proven safe and effective for such purposes.
We're in a tricky area here, as, just like with telling falsehoods, quackery (health fraud) does not always have to be deliberate: "A quack is a "fraudulent or ignorant pretender to medical skill" or "a person who pretends, professionally or publicly, to have skill, knowledge, qualification or credentials they do not possess; a charlatan or snake oil salesman". Ignorance qualifies for the label. When someone should know better and acts against what is common knowledge, they can justly be called a fraud, even if they are an ignorant true believer.
The parallel with lying is seen in how we, and all RS and fact-checkers, deal with Trump. In the beginning, his flood of falsehoods was not labeled "lies", based on the argument that we did not know what he was thinking, IOW we didn't know if he knew what he was saying was false. Then it got so bad that even the most staunch opposers of labeling him a liar, such as at the New York Times and Washington Post, said they would start to do so because he should know better. His motivation was now irrelevant. His total disregard for the idea of truth qualified him for the label of "liar". He was making false statements that were against obvious common sense and what everyone else knew, so they began to label him a liar. Since then we don't try to figure out if someone knows better. If they are acting against what the vast majority of people know better, then they are culpable of willful ignorance, and if an innocent ignorant person gets caught up in that, well, that's too bad, but the public good is more important than sparing their feelings. -- Valjean (talk) (PING me) 20:08, 1 August 2023 (UTC)
I noted the definition of a quack and fully agree that homeopathy is quackery/health fraud. However, as a general term, "fraud" unquestionably includes intent. Now, in a parallel point of discussion about the article, the lead's mentioning of fraud alongside quackery, which is equivalent to health fraud, is not in the sources. Furthermore, one source is completely irrelevant and mentions neither. Regarding the category, it is not uncontroversial. In general, I don't see how the reference to the lone word "fraud" can be helpful, as the article clearly establishes that homeopathy is health fraud. This is my final position. Eroz7 (talk) 20:26, 1 August 2023 (UTC)
I'm not very well-read on American politics, but I don't think Trump is a fair analogy to this. A lie is an intentionally false statement. A quick read of False or misleading statements by Donald Trump shows that the term "lie" came in favor due to "frequent repetition of claims he knew to be false" -- probably much easier to ascertain about one person than thousands of homeo-quacks, for whom there would really need to be some reliable sources establishing this. In India, the system is so skewed that there is a ministry for quackery, and so the "vast majority of people" don't know better and it's not "obvious common sense." Eroz7 (talk) 20:34, 1 August 2023 (UTC)
view · edit Frequently asked questions
To view an explanation to the answer, click the link to the right of the question.
Q1: Should material critical of homeopathy be in the article? (Yes.)
A1: Yes. Material critical of homeopathy must be included in the article. The articles on Misplaced Pages include information from all significant points of view. This is summarized in the policy pages which can be accessed from the Neutral point of view policy. This article strives to conform to Misplaced Pages policies, which dictate that a substantial fraction of articles in fringe areas be devoted to mainstream views of those topics.
Q2: Should material critical of homeopathy be in the lead? (Yes.)
A2: Yes. Material critical of homeopathy belongs in the lead section. The lead must contain a summary of all the material in the article, including the critical material. This is described further in the Lead section guideline.
Q3: Is the negative material in the article NPOV? (Yes.)
A3: Yes. Including negative material is part of achieving a neutral article. A neutral point of view does not necessarily equate to a sympathetic point of view. Neutrality is achieved by including all points of view – both positive and negative – in rough proportion to their prominence.
Q4: Does Misplaced Pages consider homeopathy a fringe theory? (Yes.)
A4: Yes. Homeopathy is described as a fringe medical system in sources reliable to make the distinction. This is defined by the Fringe theories guideline, which explains: We use the term fringe theory in a very broad sense to describe ideas that depart significantly from the prevailing or mainstream view in its particular field of study.
Partly done: I've changed the wording to "an irrational aversion to synthetic chemicals", as I agree that there is an implied POV created by placing 'natural' in quotation marks. However, I've left 'irrational' for the reason that in the context of the article, it does appear to be explicitly referencing irrational fear - in no way does this label all aversion to chemicals irrational, but rather simply refers to the subset of this aversion which is irrational. Tollens (talk) 03:57, 5 April 2023 (UTC)
