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{{ping|RobertMcClenon}} I just checked that you have closed the DRN thread, and now I am starting the RfC. ] (]) 19:34, 12 October 2022 (UTC |
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{{ping|RobertMcClenon}} I just checked that you have closed the DRN thread, and now I am starting the RfC. ] (]) 19:34, 12 October 2022 (UTC |
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==RfC== |
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{{Closed rfc top|result=There is a consensus that proposal #1 is better. <span style="white-space: nowrap;">—] <sup>(]·])</sup></span> 17:09, 1 March 2023 (UTC)}} |
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<!-- ] 20:01, 16 November 2022 (UTC) -->{{User:ClueBot III/DoNotArchiveUntil|1668628880}} |
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Which version is better for the first paragraph of the lead? ] (]) 19:34, 12 October 2022 (UTC) |
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*'''Proposal 1 (written by me):''' |
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'''Jarnail Singh Bhindranwale''' ({{IPA-pa|d͡ʒəɾnɛːlᵊ sɪ́ŋɡᵊ pɪ̀ɳɖrãːʋaːɭe|lang}}; born '''Jarnail Singh Brar''';<ref name="SH"/> 2 June 1947<ref name="Singh 2017"/>– 6 June 1984) was an Indian militant<ref>{{cite web | title=Who is Iqbal Singh Lalpura, ex-cop who arrested Jarnail Singh Bhindranwale and newest member of BJP's top body? | website=Firstpost | date=2022-08-17 | url=https://www.firstpost.com/explainers/who-is-iqbal-singh-lalpura-ex-cop-who-arrested-jarnail-singh-bhindranwale-and-newest-member-of-bjps-top-body-11070761.html |quote=Bhindranwale was a '''militant leader''' and leading figure of the Khalistan movement who was killed in Operation Blue Star in 1984.}}</ref><ref>{{cite web | title=Controversy over Punjabi film, song glorifying militant on death row | publisher=] | date=2019-02-22 | url=https://www.ndtv.com/india-news/controversy-over-punjabi-film-song-glorifying-militant-on-death-row-517856|quote='''Bhindranwale was a militant''' leader who had holed up with his supporters}}</ref><ref>{{cite book | last=Malji | first=A. | title=Religious Nationalism in Contemporary South Asia | publisher=] | series=Elements in Religion and Violence | year=2022 | isbn=978-1-108-91118-4 | url=https://books.google.com/books?id=CEiEEAAAQBAJ&pg=PT50 | page=50|quote='''Bhindranwale was a militant Sikh'''}}</ref><ref>{{cite book | last=Sinha | first=C. | title=The Great Repression: The Story of Sedition in India | publisher=Penguin Random House India Private Limited | year=2019 | isbn=978-93-5305-618-6 | url=https://books.google.com/books?id=FY6nDwAAQBAJ&pg=PT231| page=231|quote='''Bhindranwale was a militant''' religious leader and the leader of the Khalistani Movement}}</ref> and the leading figure of ].<ref>{{cite book | last=Larson | first=G.J. | title=India's Agony Over Religion: Confronting Diversity in Teacher Education | publisher=State University of New York Press | series=SUNY Series in Religious Studies | year=1995 | isbn=978-0-7914-2412-4 | url=https://books.google.com/books?id=g6jmckIUHMAC&pg=PA230 | quote=Within a few years Bhindranwale developed his own power base quite apart from the Congress ( I ) and began to emerge as the key figure in the Sikh separatist movement that was demanding a new independent state for Sikhs in the Punjab, an independent state to be known as "Khalistan" (the "Land of the Khalsa" or the "Land of the Pure"). He and his followers took control of the Sikh Golden Temple and the Akal Takht (the "Eternal Tower"), the central shrine and symbol of the Sikh faith, in Amritsar early in 1984, stockpiling huge caches of weapons and apparently preparing for armed insurrection.|authorlink=Gerald James Larson | page=230}}</ref><ref>{{cite book | last=Juergensmeyer | first=M. | title=God at War: A Meditation on Religion and Warfare | publisher=Oxford University Press | year=2020 | isbn=978-0-19-007919-2 | url=https://books.google.com/books?id=RpHgDwAAQBAJ&pg=PA26 | quote=Jarnail Singh Bhindranwale, the key figure in the Khalistan movement | page=26}}</ref><ref>{{cite book | last=Aspinall | first=E. | last2=Jeffrey | first2=R. | last3=Regan | first3=A.J. | title=Diminishing Conflicts in Asia and the Pacific: Why Some Subside and Others Don't | publisher=Routledge | series=Online access with subscription: Proquest Ebook Central | year=2013 | isbn=978-0-415-67031-9 | url=https://books.google.com/books?id=aKb9cFFu1xAC&pg=PA89 | quote=By 1981, he had become the leading figure of an aggressive movement for a Sikh state. | page=89}}</ref> |
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He was the fourteenth '']'', or leader, of the prominent orthodox Sikh religious institution ].<ref>{{cite book | last=Sinha | first=C. | title=The Great Repression: The Story of Sedition in India | publisher=Penguin Random House India Private Limited | year=2019 | isbn=978-93-5305-618-6 | url=https://books.google.com/books?id=FY6nDwAAQBAJ | access-date=2022-07-17 | page=123}}</ref>{{sfn|Dhillon|1996|p=160}} He was an advocate of the ],{{sfn|Singh|2017|p=156|ps=: "At some stage, Bhindranwale had taken it upon himself to get the 1973 Anandpur Sahib Resolution passed. Incidentally, Bhindranwale had never asked for a separate Sikh state, but was fighting for the implementation of the 1973 resolution...."}}<ref name=dulat/><ref name=stevens/>{{sfn|Pettigrew|1987|p=12}}<ref>{{cite news|title = Bhindranwale firm on Anandpur move| work = Hindustan Times| date = 5 September 1983}}</ref><ref>{{cite news|title = Bhindranwale, not for Khalistan| work = Hindustan Times| date = 13 November 1982}}</ref><ref>{{cite news|title = Sikhs not for secession: Bhindranwale| work = The Tribune| date = 28 February 1984}}</ref><ref>{{cite book | last1=Aspinall | first1=E. | last2=Jeffrey | first2=R. | last3=Regan | first3=A.J. | title=Diminishing Conflicts in Asia and the Pacific: Why Some Subside and Others Don't | publisher=Routledge | series=Online access with subscription: Proquest Ebook Central | year=2013 | isbn=978-0-415-67031-9 | url=https://books.google.com/books?id=aKb9cFFu1xAC&pg=PA89 | access-date=2022-07-31 | page=89}}</ref> gaining significant attention after his involvement in the ]. |
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{{reflist-talk}} |
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*'''Proposal 2 (written by Sapedder):''' |
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'''Jarnail Singh Bhindranwale''' ({{IPA-pa|d͡ʒəɾnɛːlᵊ sɪ́ŋɡᵊ pɪ̀ɳɖrãːʋaːɭe|lang}}; born '''Jarnail Singh Brar''';<ref name="SH"/> 2 June 1947<ref name="Singh 2017"/>– 6 June 1984) was the fourteenth '']'', or leader, of the prominent orthodox Sikh religious institution ].<ref>{{cite book | last=Sinha | first=C. | title=The Great Repression: The Story of Sedition in India | publisher=Penguin Random House India Private Limited | year=2019 | isbn=978-93-5305-618-6 | url=https://books.google.com/books?id=FY6nDwAAQBAJ | access-date=2022-07-17 | page=123}}</ref>{{sfn|Dhillon|1996|p=160}} He was an advocate of the ],{{sfn|Pettigrew|1987|p=12}}<ref>{{cite news|title = Bhindranwale firm on Anandpur move| work = Hindustan Times| date = 5 September 1983}}</ref><ref>{{cite news|title = Bhindranwale, not for Khalistan| work = Hindustan Times| date = 13 November 1982}}</ref><ref>{{cite news|title = Sikhs not for secession: Bhindranwale| work = The Tribune| date = 28 February 1984}}</ref> gaining significant attention after his involvement in the ]. |
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{{reflist-talk}} |
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] (]) 19:34, 12 October 2022 (UTC) |
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===Survey=== |
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*'''Proposal 1''' There is no other fact for which ] is better known compared to these 2 facts: 1) he was a militant, 2) he was a key figure of ]. He was obviously a 'militant' per his participation in ] and the sources I provided. The opening sentence must say he was a "militant" just like Misplaced Pages calls ], ] a 'terrorist' on lead. It should also mention that he was the key figure of ]. These are just facts and should be preserved on lead. ] (]) 19:34, 12 October 2022 (UTC) |
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*'''1.''' Both being a militant and part of the Khalistan movement seem notable enough for the lead. However, minor grammatical nickpic: it should be of '''the''' ], not of ]. '''] ''<sup>]</sup>''''' <small>(please use <code>{{]|ClydeFranklin}}</code> on reply)</small> 20:44, 12 October 2022 (UTC) |
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::{{reply to|ClydeFranklin}} could I invite you to take a look at the existing sources I have included in my take that dispute this (they were not presented in the RfC previously, I have included them here after consulting with admins), and review your selection in light of having seen sources from both perspectives? ] (]) 05:30, 20 October 2022 (UTC) |
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*'''1''' Concise and accurate. ] (]) 04:13, 13 October 2022 (UTC) |
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*'''2''' seems to be more encyclopedic. Bhindranwale was not a leading figure in the Khalistan movement. This claim by #1 is addressed in MoS ] {{tq|Apart from basic facts, significant information should not appear in the lead if it is not covered in the remainder of the article.}} It seems like an effort to shoe-horn information that has been refuted directly into the lede. Also, there are words other than "militant" (used by #1) which don't carry the same connotations. If I had to guess, #1 leans Indian nationalist rather than ]. #2 does a shockingly good job of sticking to the facts at hand, given the contentious subject matter. 〜 ] 05:19, 13 October 2022 (UTC) |
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<s>*’’’2’’’ more encyclopedic. If alternate term to militant is used, 1 might be acceptable. ] (]) 01:32, 15 October 2022 (UTC)</s> Blocked sock puppet |
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*'''2''': This was the long-standing lead for a reason. The article currently also states that "he was not an advocate of Khalistan," along with some of the sources in the article, including these, which were clearly left out here: |
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{{collapsetop|Unmentioned sources}} |
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*{{talkquote|"At some stage, Bhindranwale had taken it upon himself to get the 1973 Anandpur Sahib Resolution passed. Incidentally, Bhindranwale had '''never asked for a separate Sikh state''', but was fighting for the implementation of the 1973 resolution.... Bhindranwale, in fact, '''had always opined that he never asked for Khalistan''', but if it was offered, the Sikhs would not give up the offer as they did during partition in August 1947."|source={{Cite book|last=Singh|first=Khushwant|url=https://books.google.com/books?id=Q82MDgAAQBAJ&pg=PT151|title=Captain Amarinder Singh: The People's Maharaja: An Authorized Biography|date=2017|publisher=Hay House|pages=156–157}}}} |
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*{{talkquote|"'''Bhindranwale was not an outspoken supporter of Khalistan''', although he often emphasized the separate identity of the Sikhs."|source={{Cite book|last=Deol|first=Harnik|url=https://books.google.com/books?id=u_AMX5RI_YUC|title=Religion and Nationalism in India: The Case of the Punjab (Routledge Studies in the Modern History of Asia)|date=2000|publisher=Routledge|page=170}}}} |
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*{{talkquote|"Before the raid on the Golden Temple, neither the Government nor anyone else appeared to put much credence in the Khalistan movement. Mr. Bhindranwale himself said many times that '''he was not seeking an independent country for Sikhs''', merely greater autonomy for Punjab within the Indian Union....One possible explanation advanced for the Government's raising of the Khalistan question is that it needs to take every opportunity to justify the killing in Amritsar and the invasion of the Sikhs' holiest shrine."|source={{cite news |last1=Stevens |first1=William K. |title=Punjab Raid: Unanswered Questions |url=https://www.nytimes.com/1984/06/19/world/punjab-raid-unanswered-questions.html |work=The New York Times |publisher=The New York Times Company |date=June 19, 1984}}}} |
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*{{talkquote|"“'''He never demanded Khalistan'''.... All that Bhindranwale wanted was the implementation of the Anandpur Sahib resolution of 1973. Operation Bluestar and Bhindranwale’s death was the main reason that the demand for Khalistan found currency, even among the hardliners,” added Harjit."|source={{cite web |last1=Chandel |first1=Shamsher |title=Jarnail Singh Bhindranwale Never Asked For Khalistan, Claims Elder Brother Harjit Singh Rode |url=https://indiaaheadnews.com/india/jarnail-singh-bhindranwale-never-asked-for-khalistan-claims-his-elder-brother-harjit-singh-rode-201607/ |website=] |access-date=28 August 2022 |location=Noida, India |date=9 May 2022}}}} |
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*{{talkquote|"“'''Bhindranwale never raised the demand for Khalistan or went beyond the Akali Anandpur Sahib Resolution''', while he himself was prepared for negotiations to the very end.” added Harjit."|source={{cite web |last1=Dulat |first1=A. S. |author-link=A. S. Dulat |title=Genesis of tumultuous period in Punjab |url=https://www.tribuneindia.com/news/reviews/story/genesis-of-tumultuous-period-in-punjab-183639 |website=www.tribuneindia.com |publisher=The Tribune Trust |date=13 Dec 2020}}}} |
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*{{talkquote|"Of course not," I said. "Look, if the Sikhs really want to create Khalistan and are prepared to die for it, I have little doubt they will succeed. But what do they really want? '''What do you want? Do you want Khalistan?"{{pb}}"I have never asked for Khalistan'''," said.|source={{cite web |last1=Puri |first1=Rajinder |title=Remembering 1984 |url=https://www.tribuneindia.com/2003/20031102/spectrum/main1.htm |website=Tribune India |date=November 2, 2003 |author1-link=Rajinder Puri}}}} |
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*{{talkquote|"The documentation of the reports sent to the central government before Operation Bluestar reads, “We ended this meeting in utmost cordiality and understanding and were happy at the outcome. In fact, I found there was nothing that would frighten the government of India, nor anyone else.”{{pb}}'''Pannun claimed that Bhindranwale had repeatedly told him, “I don’t want Khalistan''', but they would give it on a platter to me.” He said the sant was “grossly misunderstood,” and had he been treated with honesty and consideration, Operation BlueStar would have never taken place."|source={{cite news |last1=Walia |first1=Varinder |title=Man who made efforts to avert Op Bluestar is no more |url=https://web.archive.org/web/20080829190812/http://www.tribuneindia.com/2007/20071219/aplus1.htm |work=Tribune India |date=29 August 2008}}}} |
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*{{talkquote|"'''The assumption that Bhindranwale was insisting on Khalistan and rigidly denied any compromise is the biggest lie.''' What needs investigation is why Indira Gandhi despite having obtained an agreement with Bhindranwale that rendered Operation Bluestar redundant nevertheless launched the military action that led to her own death and to the tragic aftermath. What was her compulsion? Who was advising her?"|source={{cite news |last1=Puri |first1=Rajinder |title=Biggest Lie about Bluestar! |url=https://www.boloji.com/articles/15991/biggest-lie-about-bluestar |work=The Statesman |location=Kolkata |date=7 June 2014 |author1-link=Rajinder Puri}}}} |
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{{collapsebottom}} |
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There is clear dispute about "Khalistan movement," so it's not "just facts." These include secondary perspectives stating such, not just quotes from the subject. Tertiary sources certainly do not outweigh secondary ones, so these too must be accounted for, and balanced for neutrality. Seeing as perspectives clearly clash, per ] we must "describe the disagreement from a disinterested viewpoint," which the end of the lead already does, and not insist on breaking NPOV. What he is "best known for" is completely subjective, hence meaningless. As for "militant," he is already described twice as such in the lead, so this is a non-issue. ] (]) 05:26, 20 October 2022 (UTC) |
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*'''1''' Meets the definition of a "militant". Even if he was not an advocate of the Khalistan state, he nevertheless served as the leading icon of the movement. ] (]) 13:09, 20 October 2022 (UTC) |
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*'''1''' Saw this on AN/I. The first proposal correctly states what the subject is really all about per ] and is backed with quality ]. The quotations provided above remind me of "never ask never ask a convict: 'What crime did you commit?'" because it's obvious that a criminal will deny all wrongdoing. It makes no sense to omit the most important facts about the subject from the lead. ] (]) 17:00, 21 October 2022 (UTC) |
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{{closed rfc bottom}} |
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== Semi-protected edit request on 30 April 2023 == |
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== Semi-protected edit request on 30 April 2023 == |
Why did u used militant word.What is the proof.Militant was the army which attacked the sacred place and killed hundreds of innocent peopleincluding kids and women. 117.224.4.51 (talk) 18:06, 15 June 2023 (UTC)
There is no any fir police records against him how you can used militants word what proof you have militants those who raped sikh women murder sikh children genocide innocent sikh people in dehli Pimky005 (talk) 09:14, 16 June 2023 (UTC)
This is totally a biased article.Spreading misinformation about Sikh community.Authors and editors not wants to hear the other side.They are calling Sant jarnail singh bhindranwalw a "militant" while he is a hero of Sikh community.Read other sources,do your own research.Do not be such blind on this plateform.I challange the authors and editors of this article to debate with me in this topic.You have deleted my previous comment.
Sant jarnail singh bhindranwala was a hero and will be remain a hero which got martyrdom with many innocent Sikh mens,women and children. Militant was indian army which open gunfire and tanks at the sacred Darbar sahab(GOLDEN TEMPLE). 117.208.98.94 (talk) 05:08, 17 July 2023 (UTC)
Not done: Reliable sources describe him as such and make clear who perceive him as one. —C.Fred (talk) 01:57, 30 April 2023 (UTC)
Done --Pinchme123 (talk) 05:33, 29 May 2023 (UTC)