Talk:2002 Gujarat riots: Difference between revisions

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Revision as of 11:01, 2 September 2023 editChinmay nayak23 (talk \| contribs)18 edits →Semi-protected edit request on 5 May 2023: ReplyTag: Reply ← Previous edit		Revision as of 11:02, 2 September 2023 edit undoChinmay nayak23 (talk \| contribs)18 edits →"Caused by" parameter: ReplyTag: Reply Next edit →
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	::: In response to {{U\|Vanamonde93}}'s earlier query, I think omiting the field is not a good idea, because somebody will come and add it again. It is easy enough to find good sources that say that Godhra caused it. But the matter doesn't end there. -- ] (]) 21:00, 26 January 2023 (UTC)		::: In response to {{U\|Vanamonde93}}'s earlier query, I think omiting the field is not a good idea, because somebody will come and add it again. It is easy enough to find good sources that say that Godhra caused it. But the matter doesn't end there. -- ] (]) 21:00, 26 January 2023 (UTC)
	::::Sorry, I still don't like it. The parameter has no meaning here. It is sociological nonsense; things don't have singular causes. The riots were described as ethnic cleansing; how are they ''caused'' by ethnic cleansing? Entire book chapters and journal articles have been written about the genesis of this violence. We can't summarize it in three words. <span style="font-family:Papyrus">] (])</span> 21:22, 26 January 2023 (UTC)		::::Sorry, I still don't like it. The parameter has no meaning here. It is sociological nonsense; things don't have singular causes. The riots were described as ethnic cleansing; how are they ''caused'' by ethnic cleansing? Entire book chapters and journal articles have been written about the genesis of this violence. We can't summarize it in three words. <span style="font-family:Papyrus">] (])</span> 21:22, 26 January 2023 (UTC)
			:::::Agreed ] (]) 11:02, 2 September 2023 (UTC)
	::::Again, including some people's opinions as "caused by" sounds weird. That's not a fact; that's just an individual's opinion. Despite they were taken from a reliable source, they remain opinions of some individuals. Using them as a fact inside the infobox doesn't sound good. ] 13:55, 29 January 2023 (UTC)		::::Again, including some people's opinions as "caused by" sounds weird. That's not a fact; that's just an individual's opinion. Despite they were taken from a reliable source, they remain opinions of some individuals. Using them as a fact inside the infobox doesn't sound good. ] 13:55, 29 January 2023 (UTC)
	:::::How are is the link to the Godhra incident any less one person's opinion? <span style="font-family:Papyrus">] (])</span> 16:41, 29 January 2023 (UTC)		:::::How are is the link to the Godhra incident any less one person's opinion? <span style="font-family:Papyrus">] (])</span> 16:41, 29 January 2023 (UTC)

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"Caused by" parameter

@D4iNa4: The talk page section you linked to does not in any way establish consensus for this parameter; nor do the sources provided there actually support it. We have sourced text in the lead and the body saying that the causes of the riots were complex (to say the least). Please demonstrate that this text is WP:DUE (not just verifiable). Pinging @RegentsPark, Kautilya3, El cid, el campeador, and Capitals00: as the other participants in that discussion (not pinging Sdmarathe, as he is banned from interacting with me and therefore cannot participate directly in this discussion). Vanamonde (Talk) 11:40, 20 August 2022 (UTC)

I added additional causes mentioned in the lead. -- Kautilya3 (talk) 14:40, 20 August 2022 (UTC)

That's now more complete, and also more confusing. The Godhra burning is generally acknowledged as a trigger, but not a root cause. State terrorism and ethnic cleansing are terms used for the riots themselves; sources say "the riots were an example of ethnic cleansing", not "the riots were caused by ethnic cleansing". It's just too complex to convey in three words in the infobox; hence my contention that it should just be removed. Vanamonde (Talk) 16:08, 20 August 2022 (UTC)

@Vanamonde93: It does seem "complex" and one reason is indeed not enough for a infobox. Even in 2017, we had 1 more option that we should get rid of the infobox but 5 years have passed and there has been no other controversy with the infobox. I agree that this new addition is even more confusing because "state terrorism" (very minority view) and "ethnic cleansing" (one of the common view) is the classification of the riot than the "cause". I agree that this parameter can be blanked again. D4iNa4 (talk) 07:49, 21 August 2022 (UTC)

Kautilya, I trust that's okay with you? Vanamonde (Talk) 07:51, 21 August 2022 (UTC)

I don't think the other two reasons - State terrorism & Ethnic cleansing - should be listed, as they have not been proven. We should stick to findings instead of some individual's opinion. Changes like this would make Misplaced Pages look like an opinion piece. Aniruddh 20:46, 26 January 2023 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages is written based on reliable sources, and those sources do not agree that Godhra was the sole reason for the scale of violence that ensued.

In response to Vanamonde93's earlier query, I think omiting the field is not a good idea, because somebody will come and add it again. It is easy enough to find good sources that say that Godhra caused it. But the matter doesn't end there. -- Kautilya3 (talk) 21:00, 26 January 2023 (UTC)

Sorry, I still don't like it. The parameter has no meaning here. It is sociological nonsense; things don't have singular causes. The riots were described as ethnic cleansing; how are they caused by ethnic cleansing? Entire book chapters and journal articles have been written about the genesis of this violence. We can't summarize it in three words. Vanamonde (Talk) 21:22, 26 January 2023 (UTC)

Agreed Chinmay nayak23 (talk) 11:02, 2 September 2023 (UTC)

Again, including some people's opinions as "caused by" sounds weird. That's not a fact; that's just an individual's opinion. Despite they were taken from a reliable source, they remain opinions of some individuals. Using them as a fact inside the infobox doesn't sound good. Aniruddh 13:55, 29 January 2023 (UTC)

How are is the link to the Godhra incident any less one person's opinion? Vanamonde (Talk) 16:41, 29 January 2023 (UTC)

In Popular Culture

Another item to add in popular culture, or perhaps have it's own section is BBC's "The Modi Question" series released in 2022 which has been heavily criticized by the Modi government and subsequently censored. At the moment, a copy of the series can be found uploaded by an unofficial source on Vimeo 68.69.212.180 (talk) 13:49, 22 January 2023 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 5 May 2023

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Wrong Information given about Godhra Train Burning. The fire was not due to fight between passengers and vendors but the Muslims community pre planned and gathered with petrol bombs and mattress and bombs to kill Karsevaks in tow bogies 103.251.211.92 (talk) 21:00, 5 May 2023 (UTC)

The name of Muslim rioters is deliberately being avoided to show in news and media. 103.251.211.92 (talk) 21:03, 5 May 2023 (UTC)

Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. Callme mirela 🍁 00:12, 6 May 2023 (UTC)

Reflect to Supreme Court of India's verdict on the case. List the names of Godhara Train Burning perpetrators. Remove biased propaganda terms - "State Terrorism" and "Ethnic Cleansing" under "caused by" section. Stop taking bribes from George Soros and China. Chinmay nayak23 (talk) 11:01, 2 September 2023 (UTC)

Agreed Chinmay nayak23 (talk) 11:01, 2 September 2023 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 18 July 2023

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was called in only on 1st march. The incident took place on 27/28 feb 2002. Not leap year So 1st narch is the day following 28 The Only is misleading 183.82.235.2 (talk) 10:59, 18 July 2023 (UTC)

Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. — Paper9oll (🔔 • 📝) 12:57, 18 July 2023 (UTC)

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