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Requested move 25 February 2023

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: Not moved - Consensus that "Jewish" indicates both an ethnicity and a religion, and so disambiguation is necessary. There's a further dicsussion to be had about content but that can be dealt with through ordinary editing (non-admin closure) FOARP (talk) 13:57, 6 March 2023 (UTC)

Jewish religious terrorism → Jewish terrorism – Eliminating tautology, per WP:CONCISE, and aligning the title with Islamic terrorism,Christian terrorism, etc. Iskandar323 (talk) 12:07, 25 February 2023 (UTC) This is a contested technical request (permalink). Iskandar323 (talk) 12:47, 25 February 2023 (UTC)

• Support per nom. Tim O'Doherty (talk) 18:35, 25 February 2023 (UTC)

• Support per nom. Estar8806 (talk) 23:42, 25 February 2023 (UTC)

  Change my vote to Oppose per the arguments below regarding Jews being an ethnoreligious group, not just a religious one like Muslims or Christians.--Estar8806 (talk) 01:26, 5 March 2023 (UTC)

• Strong oppose - the nom implies that Jews are equivalent to Muslims and Christians, which is not true, as Jews are an ethnoreligious group, both an ethnicity and a religion. --- Tbf69 P • T 18:58, 26 February 2023 (UTC)

  Then 'religious' is just a misnomer, because it's 'ethnoreligious' terrorism - same result. Iskandar323 (talk) 03:48, 27 February 2023 (UTC)

  The page, in any case, carries a blend of religiously and politically oriented terror. Iskandar323 (talk) 03:50, 27 February 2023 (UTC)

• Oppose. Jewish is both an ethnicity and a religion, meaning that the title is not a tautology but instead clarifying which the article is referring to; we cannot omit it per WP:PRECISE. This is also why we cannot have consistency with the titles of Islamic terrorism and Christian terrorism.

We also have no articles titled " terrorism"; per WP:CONSISTENCY and WP:BADIDEA we shouldn't make an exception here. BilledMammal (talk) 13:31, 4 March 2023 (UTC)

@BilledMammal: If you go through the examples in the article, you will actually find that it is as much if not more about about Jewish nationalist terror as it is anything related to 'religious' terror. Perhaps my opening comment was incorrect and 'Jewish ethnoreligious terrorism' would have been tautology. As it stands, it is simply a misnomer, since it starts from the 'political and religious movement' of the zealots, and moves through purely political movements such as Gush Emunim and Kach, and onto settler violence. Iskandar323 (talk) 16:17, 4 March 2023 (UTC)

I think Jewish nationalist terror is primarily covered by Zionist political violence; we don't need to duplicate that content here.

We also don't name other examples of nationalist terrorism after the ethnicity of those engaged in it; we don't have articles called Irish terrorism, Albanian terrorism, Palestinian terrorism, or Basque terrorism. Making an exception here is not a good idea. BilledMammal (talk) 16:46, 4 March 2023 (UTC)

@BilledMammal: Ok, but since the content already is what it is here, and, in your opinion, duplicated, if you do not think the name should change, are you saying the scope should be narrowed? Which of the elements on this page would you actually host here? And how, in the case of an ethnic religion, is one to clearly distinguish between religious, political and specifically nationalist terrorism (as opposed to simply 'Jewish terrorism'), when they are all so intricately bound up and interlinked? Iskandar323 (talk) 17:19, 4 March 2023 (UTC)

Keep religiously motivated elements here, split off nationalist motivated ones. Elements that involve both motivations are more difficult, but that isn't a problem unique to this article and can be resolved. BilledMammal (talk) 18:07, 4 March 2023 (UTC)

Requested move 4 September 2023

The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

Moved as proposed. After much-extended time for discussion, there is a clear consensus for a move away from the current title. The preferred move target is somewhat hazier, but a majority of those participating prefer the proposed "extremist". BD2412 T 19:50, 15 October 2023 (UTC)

Jewish religious terrorism → Jewish extremist terrorism – Terrorism is not a consequence of “religious” views, but rather of extremist views. An entire religion should not be associated with terrorism, but only the extremists within it. The proposed title meets the precision test in WP:TITLE and complies with WP:NPOV much better than the current title. There seems to be strong support in an ongoing discussion on the List of Islamic terrorist attacks talk-page for changing that title to List of Islamic extremist attacks, and we should make similar move requests for Jewish religious terrorism, Christian terrorism, etc.. NightHeron (talk) 18:13, 4 September 2023 (UTC) — Relisting. EggRoll97 00:31, 13 September 2023 (UTC)

• Support: per the above and the first sentence of the which defines the subject as terrorism by "extremists within Judaism", and considering the important point that almost all terrorism is on some level partly political, so purely "religious terrorism" is a bit of a misnomer and practically non-existent in practice. The actual examples on this page are deeply entwined with politics. Iskandar323 (talk) 19:32, 4 September 2023 (UTC)
• Support I think arguments above and in ongoing discussions at Talk:List of Islamic terrorist attacks have shown some consensus for these these sorts of changes. TarnishedPath 01:24, 5 September 2023 (UTC)
• Support --06:56, 5 September 2023 (UTC)--BeLucky (talk)
• Support Existing title is unusual/strange. There's many ways to interpret "religious terrorism" - does it mean motivated by religious belief or terrorising the religion of others? Unclear and fails CRIT Naturalness. Proposed title is clear and straightforward. DeCausa (talk) 10:31, 7 September 2023 (UTC)

Actually, it's not clear and straightforward. Given that Jewishness is both a religion and an ancestry, we are removing clarity by removing religion from the title. Maybe religion is wrong, but that's another matter. HiLo48 (talk) 00:07, 29 September 2023 (UTC)

• Move to Jewish terrorism per WP:CONSISTENT for consistency with Christian terrorism. And per WP:CONCISE, as all terrorists are, by definition, extremists. Which makes "extremist terrorism" redundant. Rreagan007 (talk) 04:16, 8 September 2023 (UTC) Rreagan007 (talk) 04:14, 8 September 2023 (UTC)

  If a consensus supports this proposed move, I'll propose a similar move from Christian terrorism to Christian extremist terrorism and from Hindu terrorism to Hindu extremist terrorism. Per WP:NPOV we should not associate terrorism generally with a religious group or ethnicity, but only with an extreme wing of it. NPOV is a core policy, whereas WP:CONCISE is not. NightHeron (talk) 05:35, 8 September 2023 (UTC)

  Agreed. I think it would be premature to go on a spree of move requests when you don't know the outcome here. TarnishedPath 05:46, 8 September 2023 (UTC)

  We need to consider this aspect also: Both religious terrorism and extremist terrorism involve the use of violence for ideological purposes, the key distinction lies in the primary motivation and targets. Religious terrorism is driven by religious beliefs and often targets those perceived as threats to those beliefs, while extremist terrorism can be rooted in various ideologies and may have a broader range of targets. It's important to note that not all religious individuals or extremist groups engage in terrorism, and the majority of religious and extremist movements are non-violent. --BeLucky (talk) 06:28, 8 September 2023 (UTC)

  The latter point is not a source of confusion; these articles are about terrorism, not about non-violent extremists. To the first point I would reiterate that "religious terrorism" is itself a disputed term. The more NPOV synonym for terrorism is "political violence", and the reason for this is that the word terrorism contains the sense of violence for political ends. Political violence by groups with religious sympathies is still political violence; why they might be inspired by religious ideology (in the same way that domestic terrorism might be inspired by xenophobia), the end result is still violence with a political goal - making a political statement, changing the conversation or public opinion, intimidating political opponents or attempting to effect the structures of government themselves. In contrast, it is hard to think of an example of something that might be construed as pure "religious terrorism" without some sort of political end. On this page, the Zealots explicitly instigated a rebellion against Rome; it was political in the extreme. Iskandar323 (talk) 07:03, 8 September 2023 (UTC)

• Move to Jewish terrorism. I'm in agreement with the consistency and concision point sraised by Rreagan007. The status quo has the modifier "religious" which serves little purpose, unless there's more ethnically but non-religiously Jewish terrorism out there than I'm aware of. The proposed modifier "extremist" is redundant to "terrorism". I'm sympathetic to NightHeron's view on needing to associate terrorist acts with the extremists, not whole religions, but this is the job of the articles and leads, not the titles. I suppose we could have a discussion about moving all "X terrorism" to "X extremist terrorism", but I don't think it'll help. Firefangledfeathers (talk / contribs) 13:26, 12 September 2023 (UTC)
• Comment: Note that a move request to Jewish terrorism was discussed in the previous thread earlier this year and failed to get consensus. NightHeron (talk) 02:50, 13 September 2023 (UTC)
• Move to Jewish terrorism per WP:CONSISTENT, there is already Christian terrorism and Islamic terrorism. Or, potentially as pointed out in the lead of the Islamic terrorism article, that's not a good term and we could rename them all "X extremist terrorism". We should probably consider these three things and their associated list articles etc together. But for now I'd say WP:CONSISTENT takes precedence before that discussion takes place MarkiPoli (talk) 15:16, 13 September 2023 (UTC)

• Suggestion. I'm not sure I agree with the new name, but the current name definitely needs some work. I can see the merit behind specifying "religious", however, as some might make a distinction between their race/ethnonationalism and their religious practices which is somewhat unique to the demographic. However, this might only be necessary to prevent confusion with another potential "Jewish racial terrorism" page which I don't think exists. Maybe Zionist terrorism? not sure. However, it is interesting that this page is called "political violence". As you suggest, "terrorist" is not very neutral and probably should be replaced with "extremist" or something. Inanimatecarbonrobin (talk) 17:10, 13 September 2023 (UTC)
• Move to "Jewish terrorism" per MarkiPoli. Either way, the current title is clearly not consistent with the other religious terrorism articles, nor is it neutral. #prodraxis 01:57, 14 September 2023 (UTC)
• Support per WP:CONSISTENT]. ~~2NumForIce (|_edits) 04:04, 14 September 2023 (UTC)

Support per WP:CONSISTENT

--MtPenguinMonster (talk) 12:05, 28 September 2023 (UTC)

Oppose Given that Jewishness is both a religion and an ancestry, we are removing clarity by removing "religious" from the title. Maybe "religious" is wrong, but that's another matter that is being avoided here. HiLo48 (talk) 00:09, 29 September 2023 (UTC)

Comment: "religious" is the wrong word, since the terrorists are not necessarily particularly religious, and it is often nationalism (toward Israel) or hatred (toward Palestinians) that motivates them. In the article title we should not be suggesting that a high degree of religiosity correlates with terrorism. What is undeniable is that extremism correlates with terrorism, which is why I suggested at the top of this thread that the word "religious" be replaced by "extremist". NightHeron (talk) 00:29, 29 September 2023 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

the picture

the picture is fucked up. can someone change it? 73.171.42.173 (talk) 19:35, 7 September 2023 (UTC)

What picture? HiLo48 (talk) 22:31, 7 September 2023 (UTC)

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