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Move

This article was created according to a discussion at the Bitcoin Talk Page by moving some content from the Bitcoin article to this article. For the list of the content's contributors, see the Bitcoin article history.

--Thereisnous (talk) 16:02, 1 February 2022 (UTC)

I have added the ewaste part back to Bitcoin because we cannot leave it out there. As for this article if it should make any sense as a stand-alone article it should 1) give an overview of the discussion in the CC community 2) cite sources that compare the environmental impact of different CCs and 3) explain how policy makers ans political leaders have tackled the environmental impact of CCs (excessive consumption of dirty energy and air pollution etc). CarlFromVienna (talk) 16:35, 27 February 2022 (UTC)

better coverage

This page was taken from the Bitcoin page, so was all about Bitcoin. I have:

• broadened intro and added WSJ ref
• added Bitcoin, mining, etc to headings
• added section on PoS and other network types
• moved Chia into section on PoS and other network types
• standardised on capitalised BitcoinGreyStar456 (talk) 22:34, 25 April 2022 (UTC)

Core theis

Do we have sources that state this?

"The main environmental impact of bitcoin is that it worsens climate change."

Or is this a WP:SYNTH based upon the statement that follows it?: "This is because bitcoin are made using electricity generated by gas-fired and coal-fired power plants."

Thanks! Jtbobwaysf (talk) 08:55, 27 October 2022 (UTC)

Almost all sources only mention that environmental impact so I would be very surprised if anyone said that anything else was its main environmental impact. I suspect that they do not say ‘main environmental impact’ because its other environmental impacts are too small nowadays for almost all sources to mention. I am not an American but from what I read I understand the US has very strict controls these days on local pollution from coal power and coal mining. However I will root around a bit more and see if I can find a source which specifically says that GHG is the main environmental impact.

Digression: Having said that I should probably also take a look at Energy in Kazakhstan and polish that up a little in case bitcoin mining becomes more popular there. You think Kazakhstan will be able to import new mining rigs in future? Chidgk1 (talk) 16:21, 27 October 2022 (UTC)

As I suspected IEA says “ Many of Kazakhstan’s coal-fired power plants are old, inefficient and highly polluting.” Chidgk1 (talk) 18:20, 27 October 2022 (UTC)

Just found Talk:Electronic waste in the United States so have asked there how much of a problem bitcoin ewaste is Chidgk1 (talk) 16:51, 27 October 2022 (UTC)

Please review the above SYNTH link that I posted. We must comply with this policy. Please see if you can find sources that support above claims. For example 'Bitcoin consumes electricity, bitcoin is mined in Kazakstan, Kazakstan gets electricity from coal, burning coal creates carbon emissions' and therefore we will make the claim that bitcoin creates carbon emissions is classic SYNTH. I dont doubt that there may be sources to support the actual claim, but the sources are required to be put in the article. Thanks! Jtbobwaysf (talk) 20:10, 27 October 2022 (UTC)

What, exactly, is the problem? Are you contesting this claim yourself, or are you saying that it must be sourced because it could hypothetically be contested? Per MOS:LEAD, the lede should be written in more general language than the body of the article. As a summary of the rest of this article, this sentence seems perfectly fine to me. Bitcoin mining, currently, per countless reliable sources, damages the climate. The purpose of the lead isn't to equivocate on exactly how much it damages the climate, or how this will change in the future. Any claims that it doesn't actually damage the climate are WP:FRINGE as they are contesting the academic consensus on climate change. If this is really your position, I would suggest we bring this up with WP:FRINGEN. Grayfell (talk) 00:20, 28 October 2022 (UTC)

If there are many sources to this claim, just add one please. No need to explain why it is missing. Jtbobwaysf (talk) 07:32, 28 October 2022 (UTC)

I amended the lead to add local air pollution from coal-fired power and to remove the ranking of the different environmental impacts. I am pretty sure the ewaste is the smallest impact but I don’t have a cite to say so. You guys almost certainly know more about bitcoin than I do so may have some idea about whether the distribution of mining by country will change much next year - if so it would likely change the amount of local air pollution. Chidgk1 (talk) 13:36, 28 October 2022 (UTC)

The article starts with "One environmental impact of bitcoin is that it worsens climate change" but then goes on to discuss e-waste. I dont think e-waste is directly tied to climate change. Maybe the first sentence should be amended to make the article more of a catch all for various environmental issues relating to bitcoin? At least until there is an article about bitcoin e-waste (if it is ever notable enough to warrant an article). Jtbobwaysf (talk) 07:49, 29 October 2022 (UTC)

I doubt bitcoin ewaste will ever need its own article. Can you suggest a better first sentence here on the talk page? Chidgk1 (talk) 18:18, 29 October 2022 (UTC)

Were some of my changes accidentally undone?

Hello @David Gerard

For your change

https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Environmental_impact_of_bitcoin&type=revision&diff=1118767404&oldid=1118759461

you commented ‘if we have the academic cite, then we don't need some crypto blog’ and I certainly agree with your comment.

But as well as correctly removing the unneeded cite your change also undid some of my changes such as some of my shortening of the lead - I wonder if that was what you intended? Chidgk1 (talk) 18:41, 29 October 2022 (UTC)

Sorry, my error! I did indeed only mean to remove Cointelegrah - David Gerard (talk) 19:15, 29 October 2022 (UTC)

Thanks for quick reply. As a sysadmin are you able to easily redo my changes? If not no probs I will get around to it once I am on hardware which is easier for editing than my current iPad without mouse - hopefully within a week. Chidgk1 (talk) 19:30, 29 October 2022 (UTC)

er, not easily, it's too complex to undo and a pile of people have edited after - David Gerard (talk) 21:39, 29 October 2022 (UTC)

Ah I see I have a ‘restore this version’ link. I have never used it before but I think it will be easier for me to redo the changes by @Jtbobwaysf and @Grayfell than to redo my changes. As I have never asked for the ability to restore an old version I assume you guys all have that power too. So if I screw up sorry and feel free to restore to the version as it is now Chidgk1 (talk) 17:49, 30 October 2022 (UTC)

Done - it would be good if you could all check now Chidgk1 (talk) 18:37, 30 October 2022 (UTC)

Looks good to me. Grayfell (talk) 20:49, 30 October 2022 (UTC)

Article title should be sentence case

The "B" in the article title should not be capitalized. Per bitcoin, the name 'bitcoin' is typically written with sentence case (similar to the word "dollar" or "scrip" or similar). This article should reflect that, and should be Environmental impact of bitcoin. That name currently redirects to this article.

This doesn't seem like controversial enough change to justify an RFC to me, but maybe there is some objection I haven't thought of. If not, I will post to Misplaced Pages:Requested moves#Requesting technical moves.

There is also the related issue that this article is arguably about the 'environmental impact of cryptocurrency' or the 'environmental impact of blockchains', with bitcoin merely being the most prominent example. Grayfell (talk) 09:17, 24 February 2023 (UTC)

Moved it to lowercase bitcoin. FunLater (talk) 16:16, 8 June 2023 (UTC)

As far as I know there are nowadays no other major cryptocurrencies which use proof of work, so the environmental impact of non-Bitcoin crypto is not notable enough to be mentioned in Misplaced Pages Chidgk1 (talk) 19:41, 8 September 2023 (UTC)

This has nothing to do with this section, which is about sentence case. This is an encyclopedia article, so things which happened in the past, and which still have lasting repercussions, are still encyclopedically significant, per countless sources. Grayfell (talk) 20:48, 15 September 2023 (UTC)

Considerable

Hi Greyfell (talk · contribs), you reverted to re-add "considerable" here which failed verification. Please show where this is coming from. Jtbobwaysf (talk) 06:54, 15 September 2023 (UTC)

Are you joking? It's coming from the entire article. Most sources currently cited support this. The purpose of the lead is to summarize the body of the article. Grayfell (talk) 19:38, 15 September 2023 (UTC)

I concur. No referenced source uses this term. The term considerable means notably large and really requires a frame of reference to be meaningful. In order to give proper context you need to compare Bitcoin to its closest real world analogue Gold. The CCAF states:

To provide some context, we compared Bitcoin's estimated annualised GHG emissions to those from other industry sectors and activities.

Bitcoin’s closest and most referenced real-world analogue is gold.

https://ccaf.io/cbnsi/cbeci/ghg/comparisons

Nacentaeons (talk) 20:24, 15 September 2023 (UTC)

It should be noted that general practice is not to add citations to an article lede at all. I'm not sure why an exception has been made here. AndyTheGrump (talk) 19:51, 15 September 2023 (UTC)

There is a hidden note at the top of the page saying "As the lead section is excerpted to "Bitcoin" please make sure it is properly cited". That's reasonable, but since this is already explained by template:excerpt at Bitcoin#Environmental effects I think the note does more harm than good at this point. Grayfell (talk) 20:42, 15 September 2023 (UTC)

So does this mean that this cite is not applicable to the statement considerable? If nobody knows why it is there, then it should be removed. Which source says it is considerable btw? Jtbobwaysf (talk) 22:44, 15 September 2023 (UTC)

Revert of my edit

I'm about to undo the reversion of my well-sourced edit that was done in this edit. The only reason given is "weasel words", but instead of weasel words being removed, the entire edit was reverted. This is not acceptable behavior. I don't see any attempt to start a discussion about this on the talk page, so I'm starting one now. @User:Greyfell please do not continue edit warring without engaging in discussion on the topic and coming to a consensus. Fresheneesz (talk) 02:13, 6 October 2023 (UTC)

Copying text left on my talk page here below. Fresheneesz (talk) 02:21, 6 October 2023 (UTC)

Hello.

As I'm sure you can guess, the article for Environmental effects of bitcoin is contentious, and the lead is a product of compromise and discussion. Obviously the article's talk page is the place to go into detail, but I don't think calling saying "The environmental effects of bitcoin are highly controversial" is going to work for a few reasons. In addition to WP:WEASEL linked in my edit summary, implying that bitcoin isn't harmful to the environment is a WP:FRINGE position, so 'both sides' should not be presented as equivalent. It's also too vague. I would encourage you to start a discussion on the article's talk page about the other changes you made. Grayfell (talk) 02:18, 6 October 2023 (UTC)

WP:WEASEL does not apply here. It is quite clear that the environmental effects of bitcoin are controversial and that significant sources do not agree. I have provided several such reliable sources in my edit. Furthermore, none of what I wrote implies that bitcoin is not harmful to the environment, however it does state the facts that some significant and reliable sources do not agree with specific claims related to bitcoin's environmental impact. Its ironic you tell me "its also too vague" when you don't even make it clear what "it" you're talking about, and your complaints are incredibly vague as to what words are weasel words and what exactly implies bitcoin isn't harmful to the environment. Please make your arguments more clear and we can discuss. Fresheneesz (talk) 02:25, 6 October 2023 (UTC)

What is and is not "significant" is decided by reliable sources and consensus, not by unreliable sources and suggestive wording about what WP:FRINGE "proponents of bitcoin claim". As I said, presenting both sides as equivalent is misrepresenting what many already-cited sources say about this issue. Grayfell (talk) 02:29, 6 October 2023 (UTC)

All the sources in my original edit that you reverted are reliable sources. I have now repeatedly asked you for specifics as to what I have misrepresented and what statements are at issue. If you cannot tell me which are at issue so we can discuss, then we have nothing to discuss. Fresheneesz (talk) 02:40, 6 October 2023 (UTC)

(edit conflict)As explained at WP:BRD, the burden is on you to gain consensus for these changes, and I asked you to start a discussion on your talk page for this reason.

In addition to the issues I mentioned on your talk page, citing unreliable sources like "BTCTimes" for filler language like "proponents of bitcoin dispute this claim as inaccurate" is unacceptable. Per WP:FRINGE, it is not appropriate to 'balance-out' reliable sources with vague, unreliable claims by involved parties. Grayfell (talk) 02:25, 6 October 2023 (UTC)

I agree with Grayfell here. Fresheneesz's edit was questionable, and per WP:BRD, reverting it was entirely appropriate. AndyTheGrump (talk) 02:31, 6 October 2023 (UTC)

@GreyFell A discussion on my talk page is not appropriate. The appropriate place for discussion is here on this article's talk page.

You claim WP:FRINGE is relevant here, but I have reliable sources on basically everything I've written there. Your claim of WP:FRINGE sounds to me like original research. If you think my edits have problems, then you need to bring them up specifically. The only specific issues you have brought up is my use of BTCTimes which was not included in the first edit you reverted. Do you have other specific complaints about my edits? @AndyTheGrump your agreement holds little water in consensus decision making unless you describe your reasoning. What specifically is wrong with my edits? Fresheneesz (talk) 02:37, 6 October 2023 (UTC)

What is wrong? Per Grayfell, weasel-worded fringe-POV-promoting content citing unreliable sources. And read MOS:LEDE - the lede is supposed to summarise the content of the article body, not introduce material not discussed elsewhere. AndyTheGrump (talk) 02:51, 6 October 2023 (UTC)

You are not being specific which is entirely unhelpful. Read my response to Grayfell. Fresheneesz (talk) 04:40, 6 October 2023 (UTC)

I specifically said Obviously the article's talk page is the place to go into detail. I posted on your talk page as a courtesy, to get the discussion started, with the understanding that this should be continued here.

As for the other problems with you change, here's one additional issue among several: https://ourworldindata.org/ghg-emissions-by-sector doesn't mention cryptocurrency, so using it here is a WP:SYNTH issue. Specifically, that source was used to introduce a non-neutral comparison as a form of editorializing, as it falsely implies bitcoin has a level of real-world significance comparable to agriculture or steel. (Comparisons of bitcoin's energy consumption to different countries are commonly made by reliable, independent sources, and cryptocurrency and countries can both be seen as financial entities.) Grayfell (talk) 03:03, 6 October 2023 (UTC)

Ok. I very much disagree that the statement I added was "non netural" and I disagree that making comparisons of one unit implies comparison of significance. But let's then agree to remove the statement sourced by that ourworldindata.org source. Let's also agree to remove the statement sourced by BTCTimes. If those statements are removed, do you object to any of the other material?

I'd like to note that it is very much bad form to simply revert entire edits because you think this or that small part of the edits is unacceptable. It is quite possible for you to remove line items. Furthermore, it is also bad form to revert edits without being specific as to what's wrong with them. And wikipedia articles do not generally require talk page discussion before an edit takes place, so please don't imply that is how things are done. Fresheneesz (talk) 04:40, 6 October 2023 (UTC)

Given your obvious lack of understanding of Misplaced Pages policies (e.g. where you describe Grayfell's comments regarding WP:FRINGE as 'original research', when WP:OR makes it entirely clear that the policy doesn't apply to talk page discussions), I don't think you are best placed to tell us what is or isn't 'bad form'. WP:BRD, while an essay rather than policy, is widely regarded as best practice when dealing with contested major revisions to articles - and it makes it clear that after the initial edit, and after a single revert, discussion should begin, with the status quo remaining until consensus can be arrived at for any change.

The fundamental issue with your revised lede is that it is based around a false-balance 'critics say' vs 'opponents say' structure, giving undue weight to questionable arguments put forward by involved promotional sources, and presenting arguments from mainstream science as if they are those of motivated 'critics'. That isn't the way the article body is structured - it would violate WP:NPOV to do so - and the lede must summarise the article body. The edit was fundamentally misguided, and demanding in-depth arguments over each and every phrase is inappropriate. AndyTheGrump (talk) 05:15, 6 October 2023 (UTC)

Yes, exactly. It's hard to know where to start with these changes. Above I said the comparison source was "one additional issue among several" because it was one example. Fresheneesz, if you do not understand the problem, providing more examples of that same underlying problem doesn't seem productive. If you have a specific issue with the current wording of the lead, take a look at this talk page's archives to see if it's already been addressed. If not, raise it here, but regardless, neutrality is not served by false balance, and sources will need to be summarized in context, not as factoids. Grayfell (talk) 06:36, 6 October 2023 (UTC)

I see you providing no evidence that anything other than the 2 items already brought up represent fringe opinions and I see that neither of you in your recent comment brought up any additional problems with what I wrote, and instead you are both simply attacking my character and ability, I'm simply going to address the points you brought up in a new edit. You can then decide to actually bring up specifics or I will simply continue to edit and open an arbitration case if you refuse to cooperatively discuss changes. Your aggressive and explicitly uncooperative behavior and ad hominem engagement is not appropriate. Fresheneesz (talk) 19:22, 6 October 2023 (UTC)

Personally, I'd have to suggest that arbitration would be grossly premature. And very likely to backfire on you... AndyTheGrump (talk) 19:51, 6 October 2023 (UTC)

I have explained the problems with your edits. You have introduced WP:WEASEL words and non-neutral false equivalence. Additionally, you have misrepresented cited sources. Grayfell (talk) 20:00, 6 October 2023 (UTC)

Let's discuss this reversion. @AndyTheGrump, it certainly is not a fringe concept that utilizing methane that would be otherwised offgassed is carbon negative. Many sources can be found for this. So what is your primary issue with this, not proper sourcing? Not proper wording? I did not make the claim that bitcoin will be carbon negative, because I don't think speculation is what this article is for. So why are you saying I'm making claims "from venture capitalists engaging in fundraising"? Fresheneesz (talk) 20:57, 6 October 2023 (UTC)

an opinion piece in Forbes, written by a freelance writer "exploring the bitcoin ecosystem. My work has been published by Bitcoin Magazine and Bitcoin News", quoting a venture capitalist seeking funding for a project utilising methane from landfill to mine Bitcoin is an entirely inappropriate source for claim regarding anything being 'carbon neutral or 'carbon negative', as should have been obvious. If you don't want to be reverted, find better sources before making edits. AndyTheGrump (talk) 21:05, 6 October 2023 (UTC)

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