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Neither is anywhere near ], with the anti- article most noticeably biased (even here in the talk discussion the primary thrust seems to be toward finding what the ''feminist'' conception and consensus of what an anti-feminist is, which is the very definition of partiality. It has always reminded me of like if you let the FBI be the primary source material for the article describing what antifa is, if you wrote the Palestinian article only according to Zionist scholarship, if you let the anti-feminists be the primary source material for the feminism article, etc., etc.)
Neither is anywhere near ], with the anti- article most noticeably biased (even here in the talk discussion the primary thrust seems to be toward finding what the ''feminist'' conception and consensus of what an anti-feminist is, which is the very definition of partiality. It has always reminded me of like if you let the FBI be the primary source material for the article describing what antifa is, if you wrote the Palestinian article only according to Zionist scholarship, if you let the anti-feminists be the primary source material for the feminism article, etc., etc.)
WP:NEUTRAL POV suggests describing the ''phenomenon'' of feminism, and not just from the feminist point of view (their selfdefinition should be upweighted since they do represent the majority of academic opinion and therefore can be allowed more leniency intheir own self definition in their article, but their own POV of themselves should not be exclusively represented in an encyclopedia article about their group and it's philosophy. Just as, for instance, the Mormonism article does not reflect Mormon than points of view, except when they are ''noted'' as Mormon POV,wowthe article does allow some respectful selfdefinition on the part of Mormons as to what Mormonism is, it does not allow the entire article to EXCLUSIVELY describe the Mormon point of view of what a Mormon is — and this would hold for any other example of a Misplaced Pages article on any other movement, ideology, or philosophy).
WP:NEUTRAL POV suggests describing the ''phenomenon'' of feminism, and not just from the feminist point of view. Their self-definition should be upweighted since they do represent the majority of academic opinion and therefore can be allowed more leniency toward "unbiased" self definition in the wiki article describing themselves, but their own POV of themselves and their worldviews and assertions should not be ''exclusively'' represented in an encyclopedia article about their group and it's philosophy. Just as, for instance, the Mormonism article does not reflect Mormon-only points of view, except when they are ''noted'' as Mormon POV — while their wiki article does allow some respectful self-definition on the part of Mormons as to what Mormonism is, it does not allow the entire article to EXCLUSIVELY describe the Mormon point of view of what a Mormon is — and this would hold for any other example of a Misplaced Pages article on any other movement, belief system, ideology, or philosophy.
And then of course the anti-Feminism article should not all be from the feminist point of view (and our own self-definitions should be downweighted as we are in a minority of scholarly opinion, but not entirely excluded: of course you let the Mormons have SOME say in what a "Mormon" is).
And then of course the ''anti''feminism article should not all be from the feminist point of view (while our own self-definitions should be downweighted as we are in a minority of scholarly opinion, they should not be entirely excluded: of course you let the Mormons have SOME say in what a "Mormon" is).
Ultimately, my proposition for discussion is simply that: both articles should describe the phenomena from a more neutral, more anthropological point of view.
Ultimately, my proposition for discussion is simply that: both articles should describe the phenomena from a more neutral, more anthropological point of view.
Revision as of 23:15, 12 October 2023
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Ribieras, Amélie (2022). "'I Want to Thank My Husband Fred for Letting Me Come Here,' or Phyllis Schlafly's Opportunistic Defense of Gender Hierarchy". In Carian, Emily K.; DiBranco, Alex; Ebin, Chelsea (eds.). Male Supremacism in the United States: From Patriarchal Traditionalism to Misogynist Incels and the Alt-Right. Abingdon, England: Routledge. doi:10.4324/9781003164722. ISBN978-1-0005-7622-1.
In the mid and late 20th century antifeminists often opposed the right to abortion
Are they really antifeminists in general, sounds more like Christian groups and I think most reliable sources would back that up.
Antifeminists were more opposed to things like no-fault divorce, child-support, false accusations, family courts, depiction of men in the media, etc.
Antifeminism, also spelled anti-feminism, is opposition to some or all forms of feminism. Sounds like feminists are antifeminists because, e.g. TERFs are in opposition to TIFs, radical and marxist feminists are in opposition to liberal feminists.--Reprarina (talk) 14:57, 26 June 2022 (UTC)
Yes, the current definition of antifeminism in the lead is misleading IMO. The fact is that by that definition, various different factions/branches of feminism would be antifeminist under the current definition in the lead which makes no sense. Radical feminist and sex-positive feminists appose each other, same with Radical and liberal feminists, TERFs and TIFS (as you said) and so forth. What the central issue here is that there is a lack of agreement of what qualifies as feminism and thus what qualifies as anti-feminism. Whether rejecting some forms of feminism is antifeminist is dependent on what you believe is a "true feminist" and what is not. This of course if the No true Scotsman fallacy in play. Thus whether people who endorse some forms or tenants of feminists but not others are antifeminists is debatable and WP should not take sides in that debate. Maybe we should rewrite the lead to say something like "Antifeminism, also spelled anti-feminism, is the opposition to feminism as a whole or just, as some would argue, to certain forms of feminism.". Then we should then, in the main body of the article, better describe the debate between different feminist strains/branches as to what qualifies as antifeminist since I don't believe a consensus currently exists as to the proper definition, even within feminism itself. --Notcharliechaplin (talk) 01:06, 26 October 2022 (UTC)
It's tricky, like so many things, like defining what a Christian is.
Some defacto antifeminists like Christina Hoff Summers still label themselves "feminist", some pretty hardline antifeminists like myself think of themselves more as "postfeminists" or "equalists" (or my fave "egalitarian") and feel that we are being a More True Scottsman than normal feminists by taking the ideals of feminism in a way we see as more literally (like trying to get equality in family courts, being equally concerned with men's welfare vis-à-vis suicide and imprisonment, etc.).
And and then some characters like Warren Farrell who are correctly perceived as being de facto very prominent antifeminists still describe feminism in a very positive light, albeit with massive caveats, and are very reluctant to describe THEMSELVES as "anti-feminist." Destrylevigriffith (talk) 22:35, 12 October 2023 (UTC)
I think a more literal and neutral definition would read something like:
in the 2nd paragraph, that text links to literacy page. It shouldnt, as thats not what is meant in the context. There are many reasons why theres a gender imbalance in college admissions, but literacy isnt one. Jaygo113 (talk) 21:01, 12 June 2023 (UTC)
Debiasing feminism and antifeminism articles
Neither is anywhere near WP:5P2, with the anti- article most noticeably biased (even here in the talk discussion the primary thrust seems to be toward finding what the feminist conception and consensus of what an anti-feminist is, which is the very definition of partiality. It has always reminded me of like if you let the FBI be the primary source material for the article describing what antifa is, if you wrote the Palestinian article only according to Zionist scholarship, if you let the anti-feminists be the primary source material for the feminism article, etc., etc.)
WP:NEUTRAL POV suggests describing the phenomenon of feminism, and not just from the feminist point of view. Their self-definition should be upweighted since they do represent the majority of academic opinion and therefore can be allowed more leniency toward "unbiased" self definition in the wiki article describing themselves, but their own POV of themselves and their worldviews and assertions should not be exclusively represented in an encyclopedia article about their group and it's philosophy. Just as, for instance, the Mormonism article does not reflect Mormon-only points of view, except when they are noted as Mormon POV — while their wiki article does allow some respectful self-definition on the part of Mormons as to what Mormonism is, it does not allow the entire article to EXCLUSIVELY describe the Mormon point of view of what a Mormon is — and this would hold for any other example of a Misplaced Pages article on any other movement, belief system, ideology, or philosophy.
And then of course the antifeminism article should not all be from the feminist point of view (while our own self-definitions should be downweighted as we are in a minority of scholarly opinion, they should not be entirely excluded: of course you let the Mormons have SOME say in what a "Mormon" is).
Ultimately, my proposition for discussion is simply that: both articles should describe the phenomena from a more neutral, more anthropological point of view.
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