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Removal of a neutral category mass murder

It is clear by this definition that mass murder incluses rioting or ethnic pograms . Hence I will restore the cat back. Taprobanus (talk) 05:30, 25 October 2008 (UTC)

The article does not mention rioting at all. No WP:SYNTH. YellowMonkey (click here to choose Australia's next top model) 03:58, 28 October 2008 (UTC)

"Definition does not work" ? why, care to explain Taprobanus (talk) 19:44, 27 October 2008 (UTC)

Obviously, mass murder and massacres are the same, as is obvious. However, nothing there says that all riots are mass murders or massacres. Where is the source that says this incident is such and such. V and SYNTH are the policies. You need a source. YellowMonkey (click here to choose Australia's next top model) 03:57, 28 October 2008 (UTC)

Requested move 30 June 2015

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: no consensus. Jenks24 (talk) 15:44, 23 July 2015 (UTC)

• 1977 anti-Tamil pogrom → 1977 Sri Lankan riots
• 1958 anti-Tamil pogrom → 1958 Ceylonese riots

– As per Misplaced Pages naming conventions, it is neutral and NPOV and stays in line with the rest of wikipedia (1929 Palestine riots, 1947 Jerusalem riots, 2005 Cronulla riots, 2006 Brussels riots, 2011 England riots). The current articles have been hijacked by editor(s) sympathetic to the nationalist cause and so have taken a highly POV and skewed tone. The term pogrom is highly problematic as it is a term used against jews and their persecution, which does not apply here but has been used for effect. These riots were political riots in response to the political situation of the island at the time, not an organised attempt to ethnically cleanse. People on both sides died and were led by political groups on both side. Ultimately the proposed changes are less controversial, neutral and to the point. Relisted. Jenks24 (talk) 13:26, 15 July 2015 (UTC) --Relisted. George Ho (talk) 20:04, 7 July 2015 (UTC) Blackknight12 (talk) 10:23, 30 June 2015 (UTC)

Oppose Renaming of both these articles had been extensively discussed here leaving no page unturned. Its just the initiator of this move continues to ignore and disregard community inputs, and each time hits on a fresh nomination to frustrate the whole point of consensus building. His arguments make little or no sense except his repeated showcasing of his blunt understanding of Misplaced Pages's NPOV which is as follows:

Neutrality requires that each article or other page in the mainspace fairly represents all significant viewpoints that have been published by reliable sources, in proportion to the prominence of each viewpoint. Giving due weight and avoiding giving undue weight means that articles should not give minority views as much of or as detailed a description as more widely held views.

There are eight and six reliable sources for both articles respectively, that classify these events as Anti-Tamil pogroms. The magnitude of deaths and destruction endured by the Tamils has led to the predominant stance of Anti-Tamil across these sources. So all these claims such as "These riots were political riots in response to the political situation of the island at the time, not an organised attempt to ethnically cleanse. People on both sides died and were led by political groups on both side. Ultimately the proposed changes are less controversial, neutral and to the point." constitute WP:OR and persistent POV pushing, nor has the editor has been able to answer a single point raised in the discussion here. --CuCl₂ 13:50, 30 June 2015 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

Subsuming sexual violence section into the pogrom information?

@Oz346: I have added a district-by-district breakdown of the rioting. I believe that the incidents that you outline in "Sexual Violence" section should be contained within this, and I have added the incidents in the appropriate district sections. I did cut down on some of the writing just to maintain concision and a more even flow in the text. If I have omitted any incidents or failed to describe them in sufficient detail, you are more than welcome to add them in. Your statistic on the number of Tamil women raped can be put after the sentence which gives the official count of the dead. Do you agree to this? SinhalaLion (talk) 17:52, 21 May 2021 (UTC)

It's fine as it is, the more detailed accounts should be kept in. There is a need for both. Your paraphrased district by district summaries, and more detailed personalised accounts in this section. Having these more detailed accounts in the district by district section would just bloat it. Whereas removing these detailed accounts would detract from the article. Oz346 (talk) 21:06, 21 May 2021 (UTC)

dead link?

@Cossde:, how can you say its a dead link?

https://lankafreelibrary.com/2019/10/15/sansoni-commission-1980/

And cherry picking? why were not the prior events of violence added in the summary? @SinhalaLion: has recently changed this page using this source, and you had no issues with it. Why are you selectively removing the mentions of violence against Tamils? Oz346 (talk) 10:49, 12 February 2024 (UTC)

Sorry, I take that back. I had an issue accessing the link, its not a deadlink.Cossde (talk) 12:18, 12 February 2024 (UTC)

Since I can now access the report, can you please tell where the report states these:

1. It began with police violence against Tamils in Jaffna, followed by Tamil violence against Sinhalese in the city. .

2. also attacked in Tamil majority areas

3. On 15 August, a mob of about 100 people were reported to be causing damage to lights and signs near the Jaffna Bus stand.

4. This false rumour was one of many created to stir up anger amongst the Sinhalese.

5. Several Tamil civilians including S. Vartharajah, T. Suriyakumaran, S. Kailasapillai, S. Gopalakrishnan and K. Edirimanasingham accused the police of shooting them on the morning of the 16th as they were walking to work. All received bullets in their bodies, with Vartharajah having his right leg amputated as a result.

6. On the morning of the 16th at 5am, MP V. Yogeswaran stated that a number of people came to his house to inform him that 10 policemen in Khakis had set fire to shops in the Old Market at 1.40 AM.

Cossde (talk) 12:18, 12 February 2024 (UTC)

Firstly, I will like to state that the Sansoni commission report has been noted to be biased against Tamils by other sources like UTHR and T.Sabaratnam (who has been cited by other reliable sources as a respected journalist):

https://www.sundaytimes.lk/080224/Columns/focus.html

https://www.uthr.org/Book/CHA02.htm#_Toc527947390

https://sangam.org/pirapaharan-vol-1-chap-18-tamils-lose-faith-in-commissions/

I will be adding these criticisms to the report in this article in due time.

1. read no. 2-3 and the UTHR account on the violence.

2. All the attacks on Sinhalese were in Tamil majority areas, as the report shows. Rather than just writing "areas in the northern province and eastern province", just saying "Tamil majority areas" is more concise. The intro text added by SinhalaLion was too long winded. Are you questioning whether the attacks in places like Jaffna, Kilinochchi and Batticaloa were actually Tamil majority areas? Because it is an established fact and is supported by the census data.

3. read from no. 15

4. read from no.101 and the UTHR account.

5. see no.45

6. see no.20 Oz346 (talk) 13:40, 12 February 2024 (UTC)

@Oz346 why did you cite the Sansoni commission report in the first place? You are not making sense? Cossde (talk) 05:54, 13 February 2024 (UTC)

The report was first cited extensively by SinhalaLion, which he prefaced with explicit attribution at the outset, so I have no problem with its presence. However, it does not tell the whole story and Sansoni's conclusions/opinions/inferences are often very biased and wrong. However, the basic events he recounts (although he does not recount all of them, hence the need for other sources to supplement) are generally accurate. Oz346 (talk) 10:41, 13 February 2024 (UTC)

I still can't understand what source you are citing since, you seem to be heavily paraphrasing content with editorial bias. Cossde (talk) 12:28, 14 February 2024 (UTC)

without even reading the source you claimed with no evidence that I was cherry picking, which shows you were making false accusations just to justify your removal of mentions of crime against Tamils by the security forces, which has been a constant feature of your editing history. Both sansoni and uthr says that the police first attacked and threatened the locals, before a full clash occured. Oz346 (talk) 13:38, 14 February 2024 (UTC)

uthr and other more objective sources than the biased Sansoni report clearly point to the police being responsible for damaging Tamil people's market and properties. Oz346 (talk) 13:52, 14 February 2024 (UTC)

Re: paraphrasing, wikipedia has rules against plagiarism. Many of your edits would violate this rule, as you do not sufficiently paraphrase and copy whole phrases of 5 words or more. Helping yourself to food you should have paid for is STEALING. I don't know what is controversial about that. Now you have just ripped word for word from the source. Oz346 (talk) 14:34, 14 February 2024 (UTC)

@Oz346, your editing here has been clearly biased and NPOV, its clear that you have been cherry-picking content and wording it in a way that's clearly not NPOV. Given the sensitive nature of the content here its better to quote it word to word than defer to your NPOV editing which is clearly anti-govermnent. For example why has UTHR has stated that the policemen were helping them selves to the food. In the 1970s this was a common practice among policemen not just in Sri Lanka, but world over. It was not called stealing, its Police corruption, in fact this was common in the NYPD. Your rewording of the lead appears that general police violance triggered the rioting, where as both Sansoni and UTHR mentioned that this as an incident which is cleary NPOV. Cossde (talk) 07:05, 15 February 2024 (UTC)

You throw a lot of accusations with no evidence. You accused me of cherry picking a source, when you did not even read the source to begin with! That shows the baseless nature of your accusations.

Regarding the police taking the food without the consent of the sellers. That is clear theft. This is the definition of stealing.

Reliable sources indicate that the initial police actions triggered the violence.

I quote verbatim from the UTHR reliable source cited:

"There was disorder in Jaffna that resulted from deliberate provocation by the Police who continued to be a part of it."

Similarly, the cited report of Minority Rights Group states:

"The trouble began in Jaffna, capital of the Northern Province, when Sinhalese policemen, believed to have been loyal to the defeated Sri Lanka Freedom Party of Mrs Bandaranaike, acted provocatively by bursting into a Tamil carnival."

You are trying to remove this just like you tried to remove similar reliably sourced mentions of crimes committed by the security forces from countless other pages. This is WP:NAT. Oz346 (talk) 15:31, 15 February 2024 (UTC)

@Oz346, wow the pot calling the kettle black, tell me again what topics have you been editing on Wiki? Cossde (talk) 12:05, 16 February 2024 (UTC)

I quote verbatim from the wikipedia WP:NAT policy:

"This includes being here to promote ideas, without reliable sources and due weight".

I am using UTHR which is a wikipedia vetted reliable source. You are trying to remove reliably sourced material without any contrary reliable source evidence. Without any reliable sources you are promoting the idea that the security forces were not the first to attack during this bout of violence. That is what your edit history on this page is consistently indicating. It fits WP:NAT. Oz346 (talk) 12:13, 16 February 2024 (UTC)

@Oz346, do you confirm or deny that you only contribute pro-Tamil Eelam and anti Sri Lanka content? Cossde (talk) 12:31, 16 February 2024 (UTC)

That is your own idea. Nothing I add with reliable sources is "anti Sri Lanka". If anything it is pro Sri Lanka, as it increases the general knowledge of the population regarding what has happened in the country, and that is something that all Sri Lankans (and for that matter all wikipedia readers worldwide.) deserve access to. Hiding human rights violations and encouraging impunity and a breakdown in the rule of law is not good for any country. Those who do that are the ones who are anti-Sri Lanka in my opinion. WP:NAT fits those who do biased edits while going against the reliable sources. Oz346 (talk) 12:57, 16 February 2024 (UTC)

@Oz346, can you please answer the simple question, do you confirm or deny that you only contribute pro-Tamil Eelam and anti Sri Lanka content? Cossde (talk) 13:10, 16 February 2024 (UTC)

I refuse to answer your loaded questions which are not relevant to the issue at hand. I contribute to the Sri Lankan civil war related pages, as this is my area of expertise. Keep to the current topic of this page and do not derail the discussion. Oz346 (talk) 13:32, 16 February 2024 (UTC)

And i've have already answered your question, Nothing I add with reliable sources is "anti Sri Lanka". Oz346 (talk) 13:35, 16 February 2024 (UTC)

@Oz346, ok that means you don't do "anti Sri Lanka", but you do "Pro-Tamil Eelam" then? Cossde (talk) 14:08, 16 February 2024 (UTC)

I do neither. I repeat, stop derailing the discussion at hand. Oz346 (talk) 14:11, 16 February 2024 (UTC)

@Oz346, your edit history doesn't show any contributions outside these topics. Cossde (talk) 14:42, 16 February 2024 (UTC)

Discussion on background section

@Cossde this is not a page on the Sansoni report. this is page on the 1977 pogrom. The extensive background information completely ruins the page and takes away the focus from the actual pogrom. stop editing warring and discuss here. Oz346 (talk) 13:39, 19 February 2024 (UTC)

@Oz346, it is you that have engaged in editing warring, by reverting cited content. Mind I remind you that bulk of the article contain events mentioned in the Sansoni report. My additions have only been to expand it. Cossde (talk) 13:48, 19 February 2024 (UTC)

Sansoni report is not a scholarly reliable secondary source to be basing this entire article on. It's a qualified source if anything to use with attribution as it has been done for the actual events of the pogrom. You have violated undue weight policies with your edits. Oz346 (talk) 13:51, 19 February 2024 (UTC)

@Oz346, you can't have it both ways. Either you use it to cover the events leading to and the riots. Or non at all. Cossde (talk) 13:53, 19 February 2024 (UTC)

No, this is an article on the pogrom. Not Tamil separatism. This whole section you have added "Events leading up to Augest 1977" is completely undue weight in this article. The existing background was sufficient. You have completely ruined the flow and succinctness of the article by bloating it with these details which already have dedicated pages. Oz346 (talk) 13:56, 19 February 2024 (UTC)

According to you is it? Cossde (talk) 14:31, 19 February 2024 (UTC)

I have opened this up on Misplaced Pages:Third opinion, regarding these two possible versions and Oz346 (talk) 16:34, 19 February 2024 (UTC)

This is not supposed to be a page with extensive details on Tamil separatism. That has already been briefly touched on and summarised succinctly in the existing background. This is a page on the 1977 pogrom. You have flooded and ruined the page with excessive background details. Use of the Sansoni report for the details on the actual events of the 1977 pogrom have great relevance. Oz346 (talk) 13:49, 19 February 2024 (UTC)

@Oz346, Sansoni report details the actual events leading to the event as well. Cossde (talk) 13:54, 19 February 2024 (UTC)

That has been summarised already in the previous background section. Oz346 (talk) 13:57, 19 February 2024 (UTC)

@Oz346, I disagree. It had left out key facts. Cossde (talk) 12:44, 20 February 2024 (UTC)

Having extensive details on Tamil separatism and the Vaddukoddai Resolution, Tamil election history etc is definitely undue weight for a page which is focused on the pogrom of 77. I see you are continuing to revert war as you usually do. I will wait for the third opinion to bring this to a close. Oz346 (talk) 13:46, 20 February 2024 (UTC)

Strongly disagree, the Sansoni report cited heavily here clearly states that the events leading up to the riots in August. These need to be stated to give context to the events in August 1977. I feel its your intention to only portray the events of August 1977. Cossde (talk) 13:59, 20 February 2024 (UTC)

The events of Tamils voting for separatism are already mentioned in the original shorter background section. That is suffice. So your claim that the events of August 1977 are only mentioned is nonsense. Besides, Sansoni Report is not a scholarly reliable secondary source for deciding what the actual triggers of the pogrom were. His conclusions have been heavily criticised by actual reliable sources like UTHR as biased and politically motivated, and to whitewash and fit the narrative of the government. In summary, the Tamil separatist election history and Vaddukoddai resolution did not directly trigger the pogrom. It was the police violence which directly triggered it (as the RS indicate.) There was no pogrom straight after the election, which supports this. There was a significant delay. Other factors were more responsible, such as the actual violence by the police in August. Oz346 (talk) 14:14, 20 February 2024 (UTC)

If the "Sansoni Report is not a scholarly reliable secondary source" then why cite it extensively in the events of August 1977. Furthermore, scholarly sources presented here seem to contradict on the reasons for the start of the riots. Cossde (talk) 14:18, 20 February 2024 (UTC)

What are the contradictions of the scholarly sources you claim? The Sansoni Report was first extensively cited by a Sinhala editor, SinhalaLion. It was used in a limited fashion for the actual events of the pogrom by him, and with explicit attribution. Not cited for any biased analysis. He is a more careful editor, and he probably saw the nonsense that Sansoni was claiming. Oz346 (talk) 14:30, 20 February 2024 (UTC)

"There were different beliefs on how the riots started. Some believe they started when there was a dispute that began when four policemen entered a carnival without tickets." "Others have the view that the carnival incident was a pretext, inquiries revealing that it was conducted in an organized manner and was hence a pre-planned attack." Cossde (talk) 14:33, 20 February 2024 (UTC)

Neither of those possible reasons provide justification for such an extensive section on Tamil separatism and political history. It is already briefly touched on in the background section. Which is what a background section should be, a short summary. Your desired version completely submerges the actual topic, the pogrom and the immediate events preceding it. It reads more like a page on Tamil separatism than the actual pogrom for the initial reams of text. undue weight for sure. Oz346 (talk) 14:41, 20 February 2024 (UTC)

Ok, so do you want to only talk about the pogrom here? Cossde (talk) 14:45, 20 February 2024 (UTC)

The article should focus on the pogrom. There is already summarised mentions of appropriate background details. Oz346 (talk) 14:59, 20 February 2024 (UTC)

Gota war source

"policmen were accustomed to using public transport and entering places of entertainment without paying entrance fee. Many policmen regarded this as a privilage." Can you please provide me with the direct quote from the reference you are citing which claims this. About how the police were accustomed to using these things for free and regarded it as a privilege. Oz346 (talk) 14:06, 19 February 2024 (UTC)

Btw I can get access to the Gota war book, but it will require me to visit a library. So please make sure your quote is verbatim. As I will eventually cross check. Oz346 (talk) 14:07, 19 February 2024 (UTC)

"Policemen are accustomed to using public transport and entering places of entertainment without paying the entrance fee. Many members of the force regard this as a harmless privilege they enjoy." Pg 78. Cossde (talk) 14:28, 19 February 2024 (UTC)

Learn to properly cite your sources. Page numbers are missing. Besides, C. A Chandraprema is a Sri Lankan government official accused of involvement in a paramilitary death squad: https://www.colombotelegraph.com/index.php/proposed-sri-lankan-envoy-to-geneva-c-a-chandraprema-was-a-member-of-prra-death-squad/

He's not a reliable source. It's like citing a book authored by an LTTE member.

What's the point of this following sentence that you added?

"The 1977 riots had been seen as a "Sinhalese reaction to Tamil separatist demands, terror-ist acts committed in the name of separatism, and anti-Sinhalese statements allegedly made by Tamil politicians in the course of the campaign"."

If you look at the citation, it's only a summary of the accusations in the Sansoni commission report which itself has been criticized for bias. --- Petextrodon (talk) 16:50, 19 February 2024 (UTC)

@Petextrodon, learn to talk properly. As usual you come to Oz346's aid. Funny you argued differently here. Cossde (talk) 12:51, 20 February 2024 (UTC)

Except N. Malathy was never an LTTE member nor accused of involvement in a death squad. --- Petextrodon (talk) 12:55, 20 February 2024 (UTC)

Malathy did worked for the LTTE. Chandraprema was accused, but not convicted. Cossde (talk) 13:34, 20 February 2024 (UTC)

Yes because criminals don't convict their own. Still not a RS. --- Petextrodon (talk) 13:36, 20 February 2024 (UTC)

Is that a fact or your POV? Cossde (talk) 13:57, 20 February 2024 (UTC)

Proven fact. --- Petextrodon (talk) 14:00, 20 February 2024 (UTC)

In the case of Chandraprema? Please share details. Cossde (talk) 14:12, 20 February 2024 (UTC)

That he's a government official by itself makes him biased source but the accusations by human rights groups makes him totally unreliable hence should be removed. --- Petextrodon (talk) 14:19, 20 February 2024 (UTC)

That's your POV, not proven fact. Cossde (talk) 14:23, 20 February 2024 (UTC)

Take it to the reliable source noticeboard then. --- Petextrodon (talk) 14:27, 20 February 2024 (UTC)

Sure. Like you did for Malathy. Cossde (talk) 14:30, 20 February 2024 (UTC)

Militant activity

@Cossde what does the Militant activity section have to do with the pogrom? --- Petextrodon (talk) 14:03, 20 February 2024 (UTC)

That they made use out of it. Cossde (talk) 14:13, 20 February 2024 (UTC)

It's not relevant to the pogrom hence can be removed. ---- Petextrodon (talk) 14:20, 20 February 2024 (UTC)

That's your POV. However Militant activity took place during the rioting and needs to be mentioned. Unless that is you want to only talk about the pogrom here.Cossde (talk) 14:24, 20 February 2024 (UTC)

Cited source does not attribute the thefts to Tamil militants. --- Petextrodon (talk) 14:51, 20 February 2024 (UTC)

Sabaratnam states that "Emboldened by the murders by Pirapaharan group and the respect it had earned among the Jaffna public, the Thangathurai group also became active. Both groups struck during August, when southern Sri Lanka was rocked by anti-Tamil riots. " Cossde (talk) 14:59, 20 February 2024 (UTC)

OK but broken citation. Sansoni report does not attribute the different set of thefts to Tamil militants. Both can't be combined like that as that would be original research. --- Petextrodon (talk) 15:04, 20 February 2024 (UTC)

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