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Out of context?

I actually am new to this discussion and corrected (or have submitted it for correction” a sentence used that left out of context that her tweet to who she perceived to be Bernie Sanders supporters was in her own words meant as a “hyperbolic joke”. The only reason I can see for someone to utilize that source for her statement and then leaving out that context is to give a very jaundiced perception about both her intention with the tweet and it’s connection to unverified and unreasonable (and now wholly unsupportable as independent studies have shown) determination that “Bernie Bros” were a real thing (they weren’t according to several independent study’s of the data) and thus gave the impression she was simply someone innocently commenting who received this Toxic attack by Sanders supporters.

1. Her tweet was meant to elicit a strong reaction (how hyperbolic jokes work)

2. The statement allowed that the people she tweeted her hyperbolic joke at were “Bernie Bros” (aka Bernie Sanders supporters) w/o any “alleged” or “presumed” to signify not only that she could have no idea if these trolls were even Americans let alone Bernie supporters makes the statement on Misplaced Pages intentionally inflammatory.

Anyways, while looking beyond I noticed that for some reason the description of her incident with her racially insensitive/racist/problematic tweets was allowed to imply that ONLY right wing outlets took issue.

Fact is EVEN NYTimes colleague stated the objective fact that yes the statements are racist (and they are, this isn’t debatable). But beyond that we had sources like BBC, Politico, Washington Post not too mention many pundits no one would call left stating in one way or another of course the tweets are racist but the point is, and I agree, it doesn’t mean either she is racist (context helps with that) or that she or anyone should be canceled for old tweets like that.

They should really remove that statement that implies it’s only a right wing fake outrage thing. Bc as is the article is hardly neutral and objectively it’s 100% counterfactual even to the source provided. JustTheT (talk) 03:03, 12 July 2022 (UTC)

This has been discussed many times already. See below. --Sangdeboeuf (talk) 22:37, 13 July 2022 (UTC)

Naomi Wu

Sarah was invoiced in a huge controversy by Doxxing a Chinese women on Vice, and according to the victim breaching their written agreement etc

https://medium.com/@therealsexycyborg/shenzhen-tech-girl-naomi-wu-my-experience-with-sarah-jeong-jason-koebler-and-vice-magazine-3f4a32fda9b5

I hope there are reliable sources beyond the victim's own blog Jazi Zilber (talk) 10:54, 22 January 2021 (UTC)

This has been discussed several times before and no one has yet put forward any independent, reliable sources for this incident. Hoping, etc. won't change that, unfortunately. —Sangdeboeuf (talk) 11:07, 22 January 2021 (UTC)

https://biohackinfo.com/news-bbc-undercover-to-expose-cyborgs/ , https://arcdigital.media/how-western-progressives-fail-activists-in-the-developing-world-fbfd91307da1 and https://thefederalist.com/2018/08/20/spat-chinese-hacker-vice-makes-sarah-jeong-look-like-hack/ look to me like good sources (especially together). ChristianKl ❪✉❫ 12:08, 22 January 2021 (UTC)

These are all obviously terrible sources; the idea that someone would propose using any one of them as a source in a Misplaced Pages article is somewhere between absurd and terrifying. --JBL (talk) 13:00, 22 January 2021 (UTC)

arcdigital.media is alternative media which does have editors. Are you saying that all alternative media shouldn't be used as a source for Misplaced Pages articles? ChristianKl ❪✉❫ 13:19, 22 January 2021 (UTC)

I am saying that if you can't understand why "The internet’s best opinion page" isn't a RS for contentious factual claims in BLPs, you shouldn't be editing biographies on Misplaced Pages. --JBL (talk) 14:26, 22 January 2021 (UTC)

All three of these sources have an obvious axe to grind, and definitely should not be used for any contentious BLP info. —Sangdeboeuf (talk) 20:35, 22 January 2021 (UTC)

https://nextshark.com/naomi-wu-vice-controversy/ is another source. ChristianKl ❪✉❫ 13:32, 22 January 2021 (UTC)

It has come up on WP:RSN twice: 1 2. Summary of the comments there: s this the best source for this? That does rather ring alarm bells. --JBL (talk) 14:26, 22 January 2021 (UTC)

That source doesn't say anything about Jeong. —Sangdeboeuf (talk) 19:31, 22 January 2021 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 12 July 2022

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Change: In January 2016, Jeong posted a tweet caricaturing Bernie Sanders's supporters as Bernie Bros in response to online attacks against women and Black Lives Matter advocates

To: In January 2016, Jeong posted a hyperbolic joke tweet caricaturing Bernie Sanders's supporters as Bernie Bros in response to what she believed were online attacks against women and Black Lives Matter advocates

(The context is vitally important in understanding both the issue and how Jeong herself described her tweet in the citation used for the provided line. Obviously the implication is dramatically changed when read without crucial context about Jeongs intent and also as important the characterization/blame imparted to Bernie Sanders supporters who were maligned by the event, even more so since we now know that data shows the “Bernie Bro” pejorative was a false claim not backed by the actual facts/data and in many cases directly contradicted by them. We also found out that Russian operations were acting as “Bernie supporters” in attempt to undermine our elections. With these facts and context in mind, along with the full context of Jeongs own quote which was not included, readers are left with several false impressions both about her intention and action and her claims something. It also is important to note that it was her belief that the attacks were being made by Bernie Sanders supporters, something many people along with independent study say were intentional troll networks run by opposition campaigns as well as Russian Troll farms, according to US Intel Agencies who warned about Russia also seeking to undermine election acting as supporters of Sanders candidacy. That the acts ascribed as being from “Sanders Supporters” directly contradict the entire platform of Sanders campaign as well as being incongruent with the tone/tenure/makeup of his movement lead to rational logical valid questions about the possible dirty tricks campaign meant to create the appearance of Bernie Supporter's creating a toxic environment which could then be used to force Bernie Sanders campaign to accept responsibility for the acts of these troll farms. Along with Salon, NYTimes and many others reporting which discusses the independent analysis showing that “Bernie Bro” smears were created as a “myth” and showing his campaign supporters were not creating the toxic environment blamed on them as well as the Russian Operation posing as Bernie Supporters.

Many other sources available but I thought these gave the best overview of the issues. I don’t think it is correct to definitively ascribe the actions/attacks as coming from Bernie Sanders supporters as the evidence not only doesn’t justify that belief, Sanders movement/platform actually discredits the notion that supporters of Bernie Sanders would be likely to have taken the stances the troll accounts in question took. Likewise, Although I believe the discussion deserves critical consideration of the facts especially now that we have a clearer view post election, I am not suggesting we take the opposing viewpoint and categorically dismiss the notion that someone might hold belief that these were in fact Bernie Sanders supporters. Seems the reasonable, correct, accurate description would be; “Alleged Bernie Bros”. But as for Jeongs tweet being meant as a “hyperbolic joke”, this should not be debatable either as it’s importance in giving context or necessary for proper understanding of the event in question.

For her description of her tweet being meant as a “hyperbolic joke”; https://www.wired.com/2016/09/inside-googles-internet-justice-league-ai-powered-war-trolls/

Various sources describing belief and data discounting the narrative that the toxic views and attacks were supporters of Bernie Sanders (or even people at all):

https://www.pastemagazine.com/politics/bernie-sanders/selective-feminism-and-the-myth/

https://www.salon.com/2020/03/09/there-is-hard-data-that-shows-bernie-bros-are-a-myth/

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/02/21/us/politics/bernie-sanders-russia.html

https://newmatilda.com/2016/05/09/the-evidence-that-makes-the-bernie-bro-smear-look-all-the-worse/

https://newmatilda.com/2016/05/03/the-bernie-bro-line-cant-make-clinton-a-progressive/ ) JustTheT (talk) 01:41, 12 July 2022 (UTC)

I just read the “sign your changes” but assume as you can see who wrote these that wasn’t necessary, please tell me if I am mistaken. JustTheT (talk) 01:42, 12 July 2022 (UTC)

 Done * Pppery * _{it has begun...} 21:42, 17 August 2022 (UTC)

 Reverted. The Wired source says the tweet was "meant to be a hyper­bolic joke" (my bolding). How a thing is meant is not the same as how a thing actually is. Hyperbole is a subjective quality as well. --Sangdeboeuf (talk) 23:43, 21 August 2022 (UTC)

@Sangdeboeuf: Would you be OK with In January 2016, Jeong posted a tweet caricaturing Bernie Sanders's supporters as Bernie Bros She claimed the tweet was meant to be a hyperbolic joke.? While I do agree with the concerns you brought up about avoiding stating it in wikivoice, JustTheT's concerns about the tweet being taken out of context seem to also be valid. * Pppery * _{it has begun...} 23:56, 21 August 2022 (UTC)

Seems WP:UNDUE. Just state the facts. "The lady doth protest too much" and all that. --Sangdeboeuf (talk) 00:52, 22 August 2022 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 12 July 2022 (2)

This edit request has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request.

Change: The hiring sparked a strongly negative reaction in conservative media, which highlighted derogatory tweets about white people that Jeong had posted mostly in 2013 and 2014. Critics characterized her tweets as being racist; Jeong released an apology, saying that the tweets were meant to satirize online harassment toward her as a woman of color.

To; The hiring sparked a strong reaction across social media and news outlets with some journalists and commentators highlighting her previous tweets, which the NYTimes editorial board described her racially insensitive as “unacceptable”, while others including NYTimes journalists as well as BBC and TheHill labeled them as derogatory, and racist toward white people. The Washington Post, and NYTimes wrote a piece stating the tweets in question were “certainly racist” but questioning if racist or bigoted tweets making fun of white people, like Sara’s which included;

“Oh man it’s kind of sick how much joy I get out of being cruel to old white men.”

“Dumbass f—ing white people marking up the internet with their opinions like dogs pissing on fire hydrants.”

"Are white people genetically predisposed to burn faster in the sun, thus logically being only fit to live underground like groveling goblins.”

"white people marking up the internet with their opinions like dogs pissing on fire hydrants"

“White men are bull—”; “#CancelWhitePeople”; and “f— white women lol.”

Should be a firing offense especially as Jeong posted many of her tweets under the hashtag “#CancelWhitePeople” and were mostly made in 2013 and 2014 in response to her perception that minorities were treated differently with respect to the issues being discussed.

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-45052534.amp

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/the-intersect/wp/2018/08/03/an-asian-american-womans-tweets-ignite-a-debate-is-it-okay-to-make-fun-of-white-people-online/

https://thehill.com/homenews/media/463503-sarah-jeong-out-at-new-york-times-editorial-board/amp/

https://www.usatoday.com/story/opinion/2018/09/12/social-media-facebook-twitter-google-youtube-bias-conservatives-republicans-column/1250893002/

https://www.nationalreview.com/2018/08/new-work-times-thinks-anti-white-racism-doesnt-count/

https://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2018/aug/2/ny-times-newest-editorial-board-member-doesnt-seem/ JustTheT (talk) 02:31, 12 July 2022 (UTC)

 Not done: Previous discussion on quoting even one Jeong's tweets (let alone a half-dozen or more) failed to reach consensus, which effectively means to exclude the disputed material. The phrase negative reaction in conservative media is based on several published, reliable sources and none of the many proposals to delete it have found consensus either. Explicit consensus is required for any changes to the hiring-controversy paragraph, which means a proper discussion, not just an edit request. --Sangdeboeuf (talk) 04:11, 12 July 2022 (UTC)

Absence of quotation

@JayBeeEll reverted my edit which included a quotation from the Guardian. The text I added material to was: "The hiring sparked a strongly negative reaction in conservative media, which highlighted derogatory tweets about white people that Jeong had posted mostly in 2013 and 2014. Critics characterized her tweets as being racist; Jeong released an apology, saying that the tweets were meant to satirize online harassment toward her as a woman of color. Editors at The Verge defended Jeong, saying that the tweets had been disingenuously taken out of context and comparing the episode to the harassment of women during the Gamergate harassment campaign."; I added simply

"oh man it’s kind of sick how much joy i get out of being cruel to old white men"

which is outright sourced in the Guardian source. How on Earth does it make sense to have a 3-line long description of accusations of racism against her based on her statements, without any inclusion whatsoever of said statements? The source mentioned is here, and my quotation is verbatim. Why then is no quotation included, when many of them are sourced? Specifically the above quotation was one that the Guardian specifically pointed out. Zilch-nada (talk) 00:42, 13 March 2024 (UTC)

Have you read any of the (many) past discussions of this question here? Talk:Sarah_Jeong/Archive_9#Actual_language_from_her_tweets, Talk:Sarah_Jeong/Archive_8#RfC:_Separate_section_on_tweets?, Talk:Sarah_Jeong/Archive_7#Proposal_to_include_quotes_in_the_article, etc. --JBL (talk) 00:51, 13 March 2024 (UTC)

There was no consensus from a discussion from 6 years ago, arguing WP:RECENTISM etc. Considering we are 6 years on, and that turquoise text above still seems very incomplete, I would sincerely doubt the strength of the standing. Zilch-nada (talk) 00:56, 13 March 2024 (UTC)

Six years on, the people who argued that it was undue have been proven correct: there is no continuing coverage of this kerfluffle. --JBL (talk) 01:00, 13 March 2024 (UTC)

The turquoise text above has remained the same, mentioning "highlighted derogatory tweets...", "tweets as being racist...", "tweets were meant to satirize...", and "tweets had been disingenuously taken out of context..."; well, the tweets are certainly missing a key element of context in this article; the tweets themselves, which seems like a pretty fundamental thing for "context", don't you think? Four mentions of her tweets in those 3-or-so lines, yet never a quotation. Zilch-nada (talk) 01:02, 13 March 2024 (UTC)

WP:CONTENTAGE is irrelevant whether it's six or sixty years. As I wrote previously, no consensus effectively means to exclude the disputed material; see WP:ONUS. There is still an active arbitration remedy (see note at top of page) requiring explicit consensus for any change to the material on the Twitter controversy. —Sangdeboeuf (talk) 22:17, 14 March 2024 (UTC)

Avoiding WP:RECENTISM means focusing on long-term significance, and can affect sources of any age. If anything, the absence of later interpretation and analysis from secondary and tertiary sources would suggest reducing the material even further. —Sangdeboeuf (talk) 22:33, 14 March 2024 (UTC)

Let's follow what you said simply. Via WP:RECENTISM, we focus on long-term significance. It seems like it is consensus here, by the fact that every one supports it, that the turquoise text above meets the criteria for long-term significance. Jeong was widely reported in the news for her tweets, and that is still relevant today. No one in this talk page has justified how they think the turquoise text is in full context whatsoever; thus, tweets ought to be included alongside the current four mentions of "tweet" in 3-or-so-lines.

Going by the rule of consensus is difficult, obviously, but what many editors are doing here is not arguing at all, only adding to the lack of consensus by using the very lack of consensus as an argument. That, I would argue, is much more unproductive that what you have absurdly criticised me of in my talk page. Zilch-nada (talk) 00:47, 15 March 2024 (UTC)

You are one of those such editors who has edited this article over the past six years; there is absolutely no need for pompous, self-aggrandizing reasoning here; "I was right and I am still right", without ever actually bringing up what is being debated. Zilch-nada (talk) 01:05, 13 March 2024 (UTC)

Please see WP:NPA and retract this remark. --JBL (talk) 17:29, 13 March 2024 (UTC)

Please read WP:OWN as you've clearly made your opinions up 6 years ago. Zilch-nada (talk) 18:23, 13 March 2024 (UTC)

Nothing in WP:OWN forbids a person from maintaining the same opinions over time, particularly when nothing emerges in the interval that might prompt changing them. XOR'easter (talk) 14:25, 14 March 2024 (UTC)

There was no consensus for the proposal, with a numerical majority against it, in a context where an affirmative consensus explicitly in favor is necessary (WP:BLP). And the passing of time has not made the quotation (or any other aspect of the kerfuffle) more relevant. XOR'easter (talk) 14:46, 13 March 2024 (UTC)

Do you seriously think that the turquoise text above is fully and sufficiently in context? Zilch-nada (talk) 18:19, 13 March 2024 (UTC)

A slight majority; I quote:

A slight majority of respondents are in opposition to this proposal, without assigning weight to arguments. Zilch-nada (talk) 18:21, 13 March 2024 (UTC)

I quote: However there is substantial policy-based opposition to including the content, with little in the way of policy-based refutation that would warrant assigning the supporters greater weight. —Sangdeboeuf (talk) 22:41, 14 March 2024 (UTC)

I agree, I'm a deletionist for that reason, I am saying that the turquoise quotation above is exceptionally incomplete; what should be done is either, a) the tweet(s) is rightfully added, or b) the turquoise wording is shortened to read less awkwardly. It is outright incoherent to use "tweets" four times in a row without actually quoting them, especially when they are reliably sourced. What is absurd is that users in this discussion are not particularly opposed to the tweet I quoted from the Guardian, but the mention of any tweets in general. That is what I am arguing against, for the purpose of CONTEXT. Zilch-nada (talk) 00:40, 15 March 2024 (UTC)

And additionally, I did not even remotely suggest to add a section on her tweets, nor tweets in the plural; only one tweet that was specifically used as an example by a reliable, established source - the Guardian. Zilch-nada (talk) 01:00, 13 March 2024 (UTC)

The Guardian article also discusses how the quotes were dredged up in bad faith and weaponized by political opponents, antisemitic trolls, and white supremacists. Does this biography really need to repeat their claims (especially given WP:BLP)? Given the full context the specific quote aren't really relevant to the biography at large. Citing (talk) 16:03, 14 March 2024 (UTC)

References

1. Wolfson, Sam (August 3, 2018). "New York Times racism row: how Twitter comes back to haunt you". The Guardian. Retrieved 14 September 2022.

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