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Revision as of 16:35, 15 March 2024 editNemov (talk | contribs)Extended confirmed users, Pending changes reviewers7,166 edits →Survey: ReplyTag: Reply← Previous edit Revision as of 16:42, 15 March 2024 edit undoDarryl Kerrigan (talk | contribs)Extended confirmed users8,080 edits →Survey: Maybe, are we talking about the man, the office or evyone who has or will hold itTags: Mobile edit Mobile web editNext edit →
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::::You've misrepresented my question. Everyone is free to comment. --<span style="border-top:1px solid black;font-size:80%">] ]</span> 15:41, 15 March 2024 (UTC) ::::You've misrepresented my question. Everyone is free to comment. --<span style="border-top:1px solid black;font-size:80%">] ]</span> 15:41, 15 March 2024 (UTC)
:::::No, I understand ], but feel free to keep hitting the horse. ] (]) 16:35, 15 March 2024 (UTC) :::::No, I understand ], but feel free to keep hitting the horse. ] (]) 16:35, 15 March 2024 (UTC)
*'''Maybe''' - If the sentence is clear that by monarch or sovereign we mean the 'current' monarch (ie ]) then I think it is accurate to say he resides in the UK. Otherwise I would lean towards the language proposed by {{no ping|Miesianiacal}} that the monarch 'predominantly' resides in the UK. If we are talking about all former monarchs and perhaps future ones, we shouldn't be quite so definitive.--] (]) 16:42, 15 March 2024 (UTC)


===Discussion=== ===Discussion===

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Meaning of reside

The following discussion is an archived record of a request for comment. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion. A summary of the conclusions reached follows.
There is clear consensus is to describe the monarch as residing in the United Kingdom. Although the question at hand was not particularly well described, it is clear from the responses that the discussion centers around the description of the monarch as residing primarily (or some other qualifier) in the UK or residing in the UK, and the description of their residency in the article as a whole, including the infobox. It stands to reason that noting a residence is "official," in that it belongs to the office and is not where the monarch actually resides, is in line with this consensus. The argument that the amount of time the monarch spends in a location has no bearing on how we should describe their residence gained little traction in the discussion with views such as I would say the King is resident in London, but resides in, or is resident in, various government houses when he tours Canada... We should not try to pretend the monarch of Canada lives in Canada when he simply doesn't... He very occasionally visits other realms, as with his predecessor. Brief stays are not what you would ordinarily indicate with the word reside... Indeed, since his accession, Charles III has yet to visit Canada... All these citations are written before the king's accession and common sense and natural idiom dictate that the king resides only in the United Kingdom. being the significant majority. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 23:43, 4 March 2024 (UTC)


Where does the King of Canada "reside"? DrKay (talk) 19:19, 11 January 2024 (UTC)

  • In the United Kingdom. The article currently claims that he resides at Rideau Hall, Ottawa and La Citadelle, Quebec City, in addition to residing "predominantly" in the United Kingdom. So extraordinary is this claim that it has only survived in the article by being bolstered by a run of about a dozen claimed citations, which is clearly a case of Misplaced Pages:Citation overkill. All these citations are written before the king's accession and common sense and natural idiom dictate that the king resides only in the United Kingdom. DrKay (talk) 19:19, 11 January 2024 (UTC)

Previous discussion: Talk:Monarchy of Canada/Archive 10#Queen's Residence (and governor general's) DrKay (talk) 19:19, 11 January 2024 (UTC)

  • Edits removing such disputed content were reverted, even when they only concerned a single word . It is disruptive to continue edits, such as removing the disputed content from the infobox, when editors know that such edits are highly likely to be disputed and when an active discussion is open. The reverting editor has not edited wikipedia since the RfC was opened, and so there is a high likelihood that they have not yet had a chance to comment here. I would prefer the RfC to be kept open until the reverting editor either confirms the objection is removed or sufficient time for comment has been allowed. DrKay (talk) 08:41, 14 January 2024 (UTC)
    Sure, but the point is that there hasn't been a discussion on the talk page here first, as is required by RFCBEFORE, which might have resulted in a compromise or editors changing their minds. Even if closed, nothing would preclude having a talk page discussion. voorts (talk/contributions) 05:15, 15 January 2024 (UTC)
The lack of notice of this RfC is something to consider. We can see from the opener's edit history that he alerted no one. --₪ MIESIANIACAL 19:20, 4 March 2024 (UTC)
So the monarch spends the same amount of time (for examples) in Canada or Grenada or Belize, as in the United Kingdom? GoodDay (talk) 10:04, 14 January 2024 (UTC)
Living primarily in the United Kingdom doesn't stop Charles from having residences overseas. For instance, Charles frequently visits Romania and maintains his own estate there. Peter Ormond 💬 16:17, 18 January 2024 (UTC)
We're interested in where he physically resides, which happens to be the United Kingdom. Not where he stays overnight or a few nights, when visiting other countries. GoodDay (talk) 16:25, 18 January 2024 (UTC)
There are laws governing residency in Romania. The article in House and Garden calls the property a "hotel" and a "guesthouse", which readers can book for a price. That appears to show that it is a business not a residence. DrKay (talk) 17:43, 18 January 2024 (UTC)
  • King Charles lives/resides – not primarily, solely – in the UK. He very occasionally visits other realms, as with his predecessor. Brief stays are not what you would ordinarily indicate with the word reside. I think using this language is based more off of wanting to "prove" the equality of the realms rather than in what reliable sources say or what common sense would indicate. ITBF (talk) 13:50, 20 January 2024 (UTC)
  • In the United Kingdom. The King of Thailand reportedly lives in Germany although he has official residences in Thailand. Queen Margarethe II of Denmark lives in Denmark although she owns a residence in France. King Juan Carlos I reportedly lives in the United Arab Emirates. We should not try to pretend the monarch of Canada lives in Canada when he simply doesn't. Celia Homeford (talk) 15:22, 5 February 2024 (UTC)
  • In the United Kingdom The Citadel etc. are what could be termed secondary residences, the equivalent of cottages or holiday villas owned by common folk. One could say for example that one resided in Toronto but resided in Muskoka during the summer. But one would only say one resided in Muskoka when one happened to be there and Toronto would remain one's permanent place of residence. So I would say the King is resident in London, but resides in, or is resident in, various government houses when he tours Canada. But if he stays in Toronto, he stays in a hotel or private residence and therefore is not resident there. TFD (talk) 16:03, 5 February 2024 (UTC)
  • Depends The King has numerous residences, private and official, all over the world. How long he spends in each is irrelevant to the fact that, when he spends time in one of them, he is residing in that residence and, therefore, in the country in which that residence is located. The fact that Rideau Hall is the King's Ottawa residence is supported by no less than six reliable sources and the Citadelle of Quebec by two. --₪ MIESIANIACAL 17:52, 4 March 2024 (UTC)

Closure

I've put in a request at Misplaced Pages:Closure requests, fwiw. GoodDay (talk) 20:07, 10 February 2024 (UTC)

Does this actually need formal closure? ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 20:12, 13 February 2024 (UTC)
Just so objectors don't come back & complain there was no formal closure. GoodDay (talk) 20:17, 13 February 2024 (UTC)
It's five supporting the UK, a procedural close request, and a depends. That's about as clear as you need. Misplaced Pages:Requests for comment#Closing the discussion says If the matter under discussion is not contentious and the consensus is obvious to the participants, then formal closure is neither necessary nor advisable (bolding in original). Is the consensus here not obvious? ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 20:24, 13 February 2024 (UTC)
Does this cover the attempt to replace "resides...", with "lives..."? GoodDay (talk) 20:27, 13 February 2024 (UTC)
@ScottishFinnishRadish: Yes, we do need a formal close. As everyone here expected, the argument will be constantly litigated without one: . DrKay (talk) 19:03, 4 March 2024 (UTC)

Edits made before closure

The status of Rideau Hall and la Citadelle as residences was not part of the RfC, nor were the words "oldest and most populous" (apologies for the typo in the edit summary). The question the RfC asked was, "where does the King of Canada 'reside'?" "Predominanlty in the United Kingdom" acknowledges the King resides in the United Kingdom. --₪ MIESIANIACAL 19:06, 4 March 2024 (UTC)

Miesianiacal, just because no one made an official close does not mean there isn't a clear consensus that goes against your position. Editing against consensus is disruptive, especially when the consensus is as clear as this. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 19:15, 4 March 2024 (UTC)
The only apparent consensus is that Charles III resides in the UK, which was actually never in dispute. There's been no discussion on actual wording of the article (including the removal of "oldest and most populous") and which buildings in Canada are the King's residences is a completely separate matter settled at Talk:Rideau Hall years ago, with numerous RSs to support the info currently in WP. Let's be very clear on this clear consensus. --₪ MIESIANIACAL 19:25, 4 March 2024 (UTC)
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

@ScottishFinnishRadish: Does the RFC call for deleting any mention of the monarch residing in the United Kingdom? Would seem to me, by not mentioning he resides in the UK, that removes the explanation for the existence of the governor general & the lieutenant governors. GoodDay (talk) 16:17, 5 March 2024 (UTC)

They very clearly stated the RfC "question was not particularly well described"; it never covered article wording, nor was article wording discussed until SFR closed the RfC. It also never said we can't just avoid the whole question of where the monarch resides (which you, yourself, tried). The constitution actually says nothing about where the monarch resides, let alone that the governors exist and can use most of the monarch's powers because the monarch resides in the UK. A governor (general or lieutenant) exists and can use most of the monarch's powers when the monarch is standing right next to him; a fact the article presently confuses, at best.
Most sources simply state the governor represents the monarch and leaves the sovereign's residency out of the description of the viceroy's role: "His Majesty King Charles III is King of Canada and Head of State. The Governor General is the representative of The King in Canada." "In 1947, Letters Patent Constituting the Office of the governor general of Canada (under King George VI) authorized the governor general to exercise most of the Crown's powers on behalf of the Sovereign." "The Governor General is the Monarch’s representative in Canada." This government publication states, "given that the Queen's principal residence is in the United Kingdom, she cannot be in Canada at all times. It is for this reason that her Canadian representatives--the governor general (federally) and lieutenant governors (provincially)--are appointed and act on her behalf in performing certain duties and responsibilities." But, oh, no, there's the adjective principal in front of residence.
One wording seen while researching is, "as our head of state, His Majesty The King, cannot be in Canada at all times. In his absence, his direct representatives ensure that the role of the Crown functions as an integral part of our system of government." That might be altered to suit this article: "As the person who is the Canadian sovereign is equally shared with 14 other monarchies (a grouping, including Canada, known informally as the Commonwealth realms) within the 56-member Commonwealth of Nations, he cannot be in Canada at all times. As such, viceroys (the governor general of Canada in the federal sphere and a lieutenant governor in each province) represent the sovereign in Canada; though, they remain able to carry out most of the royal governmental and ceremonial duties when the monarch is in the country." --₪ MIESIANIACAL 17:31, 5 March 2024 (UTC)
I've already pinged the RFC closer for clarification. GoodDay (talk) 17:33, 5 March 2024 (UTC)
And, after that, I addressed you. Now that the short history of this conversation has been summarized, do you have any response to my remarks? No response can only be taken as an approval of the suggested wording. --₪ MIESIANIACAL 17:40, 5 March 2024 (UTC)
I'm aware of your determination to keep out of this page, any mention of the Canadian monarch residing only in the United Kingdom. But, we can't have our readers wondering where the monarch is at, while the governor general & lieutenant governors are performing the monarch's duties. Again, I've already pinged the RFC closer for clarification, on their RFC decision. GoodDay (talk) 17:49, 5 March 2024 (UTC)
You're making presumptuous, bad faith, personal remarks. My determination is to present accurate information, not mislead readers with untruths like the existence and abilities of the Canadian viceroys are dependent on the monarch's whereabouts, let alone on the subjective opinion that the monarch resides only in the UK.
Why does this article need to track "where the monarch is at"? This isn't a news site. --₪ MIESIANIACAL 18:05, 5 March 2024 (UTC)
The RFC closer is not on Misplaced Pages at the moment. Let's wait until he chimes in & clarifies his RFC decision, please. GoodDay (talk) 18:07, 5 March 2024 (UTC)

I've asked once more, if the RFC closer would step in & clarify their decision. If they don't in the next 24 hrs? I'll open a somewhat related RFC, with the question - "Should we include that the Canadian monarch resides in the United Kingdom". GoodDay (talk) 21:08, 13 March 2024 (UTC)

A week is a sufficient amount of time to have waited.
That proposed RfC question is deceptively limited and irrelevant to what you've been attempting to insert into the artile and need to find a source for: the claim the governors exist and are empowered as they are because the monarch resides in the UK. --₪ MIESIANIACAL 21:21, 13 March 2024 (UTC)
You're continuing to deny (via deletion) that the Canadian monarch resides in the United Kingdom & therefore are going against the RFC result. PS - It would help, if you'd contact the RFC closer for clarification, if you've got doubts. Being contacted by both of us, may get them to give more input. GoodDay (talk) 21:26, 13 March 2024 (UTC)
There is no basis to your accusation; the RfC concluded the popular opinion among a handful of Misplaced Pages editors is that the King of Canada resides in the UK. I did not insert anything that claims the King of Canada resides anywhere other than the UK. Please adhere to the facts. --₪ MIESIANIACAL 21:34, 13 March 2024 (UTC)
I've opened an RFC concerning whether or not we should mention in the article, that the Canadian monarch resides in the United Kingdom. I'm confident you'll respect the result of that RFC, as will I. No matter what the result is. It's time we put an end to this particular content dispute, on this particular article. GoodDay (talk) 21:41, 13 March 2024 (UTC)

Residences in the infobox

Having looked at the other non-UK commonwealth realm monarchy pages' (examples Monarchy of Papua New Guinea, Monarchy of New Zealand, you get the idea) infoboxes. This page is the only non-UK commonwealth realm page that lists a residence (let alone two) in its infobox. I suspect this is because all the other non-UK commonwealth realms have their viceregal residences described as only the governors-general official residence. IMHO, Rideau Hall & the Citadelle should be deleted from this infobox. But, it's not up to me. PS - Charles III's been king for 'bout 18 months now & still hasn't had even a sleep over. GoodDay (talk) 23:09, 4 March 2024 (UTC)

RFC: Should it be mentioned in this article, that the Canadian monarch resides in the United Kingdom?

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Should it be mentioned in this article, that the Canadian monarch resides in the United Kingdom? GoodDay (talk) 21:37, 13 March 2024 (UTC)
Yes or
No

Survey

  • Yes - Simply because the Canadian monarch does reside in (and only in) the United Kingdom. GoodDay (talk) 21:51, 13 March 2024 (UTC)
  • It depends Obviously. The article should mention that the monarch resides in the UK only if that information has some pertinence to the content of the article. The editor who opened this RfC seems to think the information's relevant because the viceroys exist and posses their powers due to the monarch residing in the UK. That assertion, however, has never been supported by a reliable source (or any source, for that matter; as much as the claim "the Canadian monarch resides only in the UK" has no source and is, indeed, countered by reliable sources). Sources I've found, so far, say the governors are there because the monarch cannot always be in Canada or they act in the monarch's absence (which isn't quite true because they can act regardless of where the monarch is, including in Canada). If there's no reason to state here "the monarch resides in the UK", then, the answer to the question is "no". If there is some valid reason to incorporate it, then the answer is, "yes". It's up to the asking editor to explain why it should be included. --₪ MIESIANIACAL 22:39, 13 March 2024 (UTC)
  • Yes - it is a factual statement, and it helps non-Canadians to understand how the monarchy works in Canada. Mr Serjeant Buzfuz (talk) 03:20, 14 March 2024 (UTC)
"The Canadian monarch resides in the United Kingdom." How does that help any reader understand how the Canadian monarchy works? Particularly given this article has a lengthy section on the monarch's Canadian residences and household. --₪ MIESIANIACAL 04:31, 14 March 2024 (UTC)
That's why "resides predominantly in the UK" worked in this article for years. This source states, " principal residence is in London". But, someone wanted and got the word "predominantly" removed from this article. --₪ MIESIANIACAL 15:18, 14 March 2024 (UTC)
  • Yes The fact that a monarch resides mainly abroad is an unusual and interesting detail in the 21st century and is clearly relevant to any description of that nation's monarchy. Editors should consider providing greater clarity on the point by noting (and providing references in respect of the fact) that the monarch has an official residence in Canada (Rideau House in Ottowa) but the actual person of the monarch does not reside there (an evening or two every few years does not constitute residency). All the best, Emmentalist (talk) 13:27, 14 March 2024 (UTC)
All the projecting aside, the only link pertinent to your side of the debate is this one. Thank you for finally providing one. However, your side having one supporting source while the other side has these--"he Queen cannot be in Canada at all times. Her principal residence is in London and she is also Queen of 14 other Commonwealth countries in addition to the United Kingdom and Canada. As Queen of Canada, Her Majesty is represented here in federal jurisdiction by the governor general and in each of our ten provinces by a lieutenant governor." "The King can't be physically present in every country of which he is sovereign, so he relies on his viceregal representative to act on his behalf".--hardly makes the other side a "fringe view'.
There are now two takes on this: "the monarch is represented by viceroys in Canada because he lives in the UK" and "the monarch is represented by viceroys in Canada because he is monarch of 14 other countries and his principal residence is in the UK", the former is supported by one RS and the latter by two RSs. (And each partly by one other RS--"The King resides in the United Kingdom most of the time" (you can't in any way call Carolyn Harris "fringe") and (from a less scholarly author) the Queen lives in the United Kingdom"). So, what now? --₪ MIESIANIACAL 20:41, 14 March 2024 (UTC)
You've said your piece, time to WP:DROPTHESTICK and let others comment. Nemov (talk) 15:15, 15 March 2024 (UTC)
You've misrepresented my question. Everyone is free to comment. --₪ MIESIANIACAL 15:41, 15 March 2024 (UTC)
No, I understand WP:BLUDGEONING, but feel free to keep hitting the horse. Nemov (talk) 16:35, 15 March 2024 (UTC)
  • Maybe - If the sentence is clear that by monarch or sovereign we mean the 'current' monarch (ie Charles III) then I think it is accurate to say he resides in the UK. Otherwise I would lean towards the language proposed by Miesianiacal that the monarch 'predominantly' resides in the UK. If we are talking about all former monarchs and perhaps future ones, we shouldn't be quite so definitive.--Darryl Kerrigan (talk) 16:42, 15 March 2024 (UTC)

Discussion

There's no reason to not mention that the Canadian monarch resides in the United Kingdom. Appears to me, their residing outside of Canada, necessitates the continuing existence of the positions of governor general & the lieutenant governors. Saves the Canadian monarch the necessity of leaving the UK, to appear in person in Canada, to sign Canadian bills into law, open the Canadian parliament, sign provincial bills into law, open provincial legislatures, etc. Duties that are carried out by their federal representative & provincial representatives. GoodDay (talk) 22:47, 13 March 2024 (UTC)

"Seems to me" is not a standard of inclusion in Misplaced Pages. --₪ MIESIANIACAL 23:07, 13 March 2024 (UTC)
You make your arguments your way & I'll make my arguments my way. What's important is that we both accept the results of this RFC. PS - Always be mindful of WP:BLUDGEON, in content disputes. GoodDay (talk) 23:16, 13 March 2024 (UTC)
I will make my arguments my way, which is to engage with your arguments. "The monarch residing outside of Canada necessitates the continuing existence of the governor general and lieutenant governors" is not the claim being disputed. What is disputed is the claim that "the governor general and lieutenant governors exist because the monarch resides in the UK". That claim is being disputed because it has no reliable source to back it up; "seems to me" doesn't meet any Misplaced Pages standard. Do you have a supporting source for that disputed claim? --₪ MIESIANIACAL 23:45, 13 March 2024 (UTC)
The argument is that we should mention that the Canadian monarch resides in the United Kingdom, in this article. I've given a reason why we should mention this fact. That you chose not to accept that reasoning, is not my concern. GoodDay (talk) 00:03, 14 March 2024 (UTC)
So, that's a no, you don't have any reliable sources to support your reason. Understood. --₪ MIESIANIACAL 03:35, 14 March 2024 (UTC)
You have no source that proves the Canadian monarch doesn't physically reside only in the United Kingdom. Understood. GoodDay (talk) 10:09, 14 March 2024 (UTC)
" principal residence is in London". "Queen Elizabeth II concluded her opening speech at Halifax, at the start of her 2010 tour and residence in Canada." "This, my home in Ottawa".
But, you're deflecting again. The issue is not "the Canadian monarch doesn't live only in the United Kingdom". The issue is the total lack of sources supporting the assertion "the Canadian monarch residing in the UK necessitates the continuing existence of the positions of governor general & the lieutenant governors." Add "the Canadian monarch resides in the UK" if you wish. You'll still have to contest with the relevancy issue, as well as all the well-sourced information about Canadian residences. --₪ MIESIANIACAL 15:55, 14 March 2024 (UTC)
I will not get into personal disputes with you. Sources have been provided, by @DrKay:. If the RFC concludes that we add that the Canadian monarch resides in the United Kingdom, to the article? You'll have to accept it. GoodDay (talk) 20:04, 14 March 2024 (UTC)
No one began a personal dispute.
That does not explain the relevance of the sentence to anything in the article. Perhaps you'd like to outline here how you propose to stitch the sentence into the article text? --₪ MIESIANIACAL 20:13, 14 March 2024 (UTC)
I will not get into circular arguments with you. Recommend you stop bludgeoning the process. GoodDay (talk) 20:16, 14 March 2024 (UTC)
Perhaps there needs to be more of a distinction made between the office, and the office holder. The Crown of Canada (the office), which is an institution central to Canadian politics; and separately distinguished from the person who currently wears said crown, Charles III. Figuratively speaking, of course; as there is no actual Canadian crown hat for him to wear when his is performing his crown duties. (Sorry if this sounds a little muddled. It's late, and I'm tired.) Mediatech492 (talk) 05:34, 14 March 2024 (UTC)
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