Misplaced Pages

Revision as of 07:47, 11 April 2007

Internet brigades

Internet brigades (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View log)

Original research, Misattribution, False translation, Undue weight and Weasel words, POV fork from previously deleted article, attack page Original version of previously deleted article. Essentially SoapBox WP:NOT#SOAP, WP:NOT#SOAPBOX. Vlad fedorov 05:07, 8 April 2007 (UTC)

• First of all, nothing has changed really in the article. The only thing that changed is defenition. And again it is original research. Where and who named those hoax russian teams "internet brigades"? Biophys linked originally to the Guradian article about China, but there is no any labelling of that thing in China. Guradian uses the term "army of secret comentators". Later after the article was nominated for deletion, Biophys has added a link to Polyanskaya article "Commissars of the internet". And again we see that throughout the whole text a term "brigade" is used meaning "team". Only once the term "web-brigade" is used. Looking onto other sources - we see that there is no such term which was used by Biophys. Conclusion, the term and the name for the article is an original research by Biophys which is not found in its sources.
• Second, Biophys again publishes Sections "Behaviour" and "Tactics" - they haven't changed even and are ridiculously worded. According to them, every man in the internet who supports Putin - is a member of KGB "internet team". It is stupid... They abuse directly other users in Misplaced Pages.
• Third, the article in Russian Misplaced Pages directly shows in its infobox that "Internet teams" are conspiracy theory and the whole thing is based on claims of few people, namely - Polyanskaya, Krivov and Lomko - authors of the article "Commissars of the Internet. The FSB at the Computer". Nowhere on this article the information about conspiracy theory is indicated.
• Fourth, like the other article it is totally dedicated to Russia. Even adding some original research comparisons with China didn't help - the article is totally about Russia. For example. original research is all that Biophys published in the Section "Recent developments" nothing is said in the sources about the subject of the article - internet teams.
• Fifth, the defenition of internet teams is totally original research. Nowhere you coud find that "intenet teams" are waging state-sponcored information warfare. Indeed, the word "warfare" is totally POV, except original research. Nowhere in sources you find that this is a warfare, and is against "blogs" or "political bloggers" - I have already pointed many times that nowhere in Russian sources you could find a word "Blog".
• Sixth, false translation and original research in that "internet brigades" are working against blogs.
• Seventh, this article is a POV fork of the deleted article Internet Troll Squads which was twice deleted: AfD and deletion review. Here you could find the original version of the article Internet troll squads.
• Eighth, Tygodnik Powszechny actually writes that "We don’t know it for certain (tracing a source of the attack failed). Only questions and assumptions remain and we are unable to verify them". Then it writes "According to Polish specialists in Russian affairs", the names of these are not disclosed, so it may be just Polish KGB disinformation and an act of Poland aggresion against Russia. Moreover, the first voting at AfD was rigged by Biophys and his Polish friends canvassing outside the Misplaced Pages. Vlad fedorov 04:16, 8 April 2007 (UTC)

• Delete per abovementioned. Vlad fedorov 05:32, 8 April 2007 (UTC)
• Keep the allegations are supported by the sources. I do not remember the prev. article, but I see that this is not devoted to any one country. I have been canvassed to oppose this article, as I believe have a number of others. I have never been in contact with biophys. Entirely on my own account, I judge it honest reporting, appropriate for WP. I can understand the POV that would wish to pretend that the methods of the KGB have not continued to the present. The very attempt to suppress this article might perhaps be taken to indicated otherwise.DGG 05:43, 8 April 2007 (UTC)

Could you cite where the term "internet brigades" is taken from? Please give me the reference.Vlad fedorov 06:55, 8 April 2007 (UTC)

How your vote corresponds to Fringe Theories guideline of Misplaced Pages? Please explain. Vlad fedorov 09:38, 9 April 2007 (UTC)

English translation of reference 2 (first publication on this subject) say: "web-brigades". "Internet brigades" is a better wording in my opinion. But this can be easily corrected and not a reason for deletion. Russian version also calls them "web-brigades" or "forum brigades". Biophys 07:20, 8 April 2007 (UTC)

Wrong!!! Reference 2 uses term "brigades", only once it says "web brigade". So you have confirmed that you've done original research, because you cited no sources for your "internet brigades". Thank you so much. Moreover reference 2 is published on blog, so it is violation of Misplaced Pages policies to use blog entries.Vlad fedorov 08:56, 8 April 2007 (UTC)

Original Russian article is a reliable source. Providing English translation is not neccessary, although desiarable. So everything is consistent with WP policies.Biophys 14:09, 8 April 2007 (UTC)

The problem is that the whole article doesn't correspond to the Russian text of the original russian article. You have done a lot of original research.Vlad fedorov 14:58, 9 April 2007 (UTC)

Original Russian article is an immigrant advertising newpaper with low circulation. English translation is from blog and falsifies Russian text. Moreover, you, Biophys has added to the original research a lot of texts not relevant.Vlad fedorov 15:43, 8 April 2007 (UTC)

• Keep. Well referenced, notable phenomena, former POV problems eliminated. For an article about what is in essence an ongoing intelligence operations by a major power, good job.-- _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk}  05:45, 8 April 2007 (UTC)

Czesc Piotrus. Could you cite where the term "internet brigades" is taken from? Please give me the reference. How your vote corresponds to Fringe Theories guideline of Misplaced Pages? Vlad fedorov 06:55, 8 April 2007 (UTC)

• Merge with Internet censorship. The problem I have with this article is that a lot of things I see in here are "alleged" or "supposedly." I can't see how an article like this can stand on its' own with all of that text being used. However, it would be worth noting this in an article about Internet censorship in the Russian Federation, or on censorship in general, since while some nations are also mentioned, this is heavily about Russia. Notable subject, but just presented in the wrong format. User:Zscout370 05:48, 8 April 2007 (UTC)
  • I'd support that if not for the fact that in addition to censorship this article also describes information manipulation (adding false info, etc.) - which goes outside the definition of censorship. Last time I suggested the name Online information manipulation by Russian intelligence (or similar) - this would probably be better than merge. But now that the article talks about Chine and other countries... I am not sure about the best new name.-- _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk}  06:50, 8 April 2007 (UTC)
  • I would rather merge this with Leprechaun. Merging with Internet censorship implies that there is some truth to this. No proof has ever been presented; and even if the claims were true, they are unprovable and irrefutable. -- Petri Krohn 03:50, 10 April 2007 (UTC)
• Speedy delete per CSD G4: Recreation of a deleted page. There is really nothing to discuss, this article is a blatant hoax and OR about a non-existing phenomenon. -- Grafikm 12:42, 8 April 2007 (UTC)

You are telling this is a hoax. Among all cited sources, there is only one (Usupovsky) that claims this to be a "conspiracy theory" (not a hoax). So, this is small minority opion, and it was described as such. I agree that originally submitted stub was not good. So, I worked a lot to improve the article. Now it is significantly bigger, well-referenced, less POV, etc. This is exactly what WP rules ask us to do: create interesting articles supported by multiple reliable sources. Of course, it can be improved further.Biophys 14:15, 8 April 2007 (UTC)

• delete. It's pure conspiracy theory, and the article treats it as reality. {removed my prev. comment} ellol 20:09, 8 April 2007 (UTC)

Rules say: verifiability, not truth. No one is proving anything here. There are many complicated phenomena and controversial subjects described in WP. How to deal with them? Do not invent or research anything yourself. Simply follow reliable sources whatever they say. It is exactly what I did. Your are talking about "absense of any research". Yes, I did not do any original research of my own. And I am not suppose to judge research of others. I only have to make sure that the sources are reliable, and their content is properly described in this artice. If you can provide any reliable sources which say: this particular reserach and claims made by Polyanskaya, Svirsky, journalists from Guardian and reports by New Times and grani.ru are wrong - such sources can be cited in the article. I found only one such source: claims by Usupovsky (with regard to only publication by Polyanskaya), and it is included. Biophys 14:23, 8 April 2007 (UTC)

Not truth? Thank you. I do not have to reject nonsense. There are no names in sourced articles, no direct evidences. All is easy. Economic growth => spread of internet => internet hooligans. Journalists — liberal democratic journalists — encountered them and wrote article about internet brigades. Fun? Not really. Fair? Not at all. ellol 20:09, 8 April 2007 (UTC)

• Keep (I am creator of this article). I will answer to AfD nominator's claims at the talk page.Biophys 14:45, 8 April 2007 (UTC)
• Weak keep. The article still has bad title and requires massive cleanup: I have to agree that it dangerously close to original research by mixing/matching different phenomena into one text: Russia + China + CyberArmy. Nevertheless the organized intereference into internet opinion flow is an observable and non-surprizing fact or opinion. `'mikka 18:40, 8 April 2007 (UTC)
• Keep. Referenced. But possibly bad title. --Lysy 18:58, 8 April 2007 (UTC)

Could you cite where the term "internet brigades" is taken from? Please give me the reference.Vlad fedorov 03:24, 9 April 2007 (UTC)

• Weak Keep - once again, this article is still about as good as it was before. I'm still not convinced this is at all a notable phenomenon, since the key sources are very slim, and it smells like WP:OR, and the creating editor seems to have some kind of argument to be made using the pages. However, none of that really matters, since there's no coherent reason presented to remove it. --Haemo 20:23, 8 April 2007 (UTC)
• Keep and rename to Internet disinformation. Good article, nicely sourced, but potentially flamebait title. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Blast san (talk • contribs) 21:23, 8 April 2007 (UTC).

Could you cite where the term "internet brigades" is taken from? Please give me the reference.Vlad fedorov 03:24, 9 April 2007 (UTC)

• Strong Keep. The article makes for a good read and provides a fair collection of references by usual Wiki standards. Even though the subject might be perceived as controversial by some, the article, as is stands now falls far beyond the scope of AfD injunction. It is equally important in my view to keep the title as it is because it’s a loan-word from an already established term coined in another language. --Poeticbent  talk  00:13, 9 April 2007 (UTC)

Could you cite where the term "internet brigades" is taken from? Please give me the reference. And additionaly could you cite me source on Russian where the loan word is used? Vlad fedorov 03:24, 9 April 2007 (UTC)

See my answer above (references 2 and 3) and article in Russian Misplaced Pages. Of course, there is a question of best translation. I want to ask native speakers: is "Web-brigades" a better translation than "Internet brigades"? Biophys 14:31, 9 April 2007 (UTC)

Web search is not as difficult as it sounds, Vlad fedorov. I suggest you do it yourself next time, but here are but a few search results for everybody else to take a note of:
Google Results: 59 for Веб-бригады (Template:Lang-en) And please don't spam this page with repeated questions under each and every positive vote, because it won't make your voice sound louder and personally I don't particularly enjoy it. --Poeticbent  talk  06:35, 9 April 2007 (UTC)

Yes, indeed. How many of these links are related to our subject and how many of them are not forums, blogs, wikis and other unreliable sources which use is prohibited by Misplaced Pages policies? Perhaps instead of making personal attacks on me and voicing your personal dislikeness of me, you should read these sources and present us reliable link which names these legendary KGB fellas "internet brigades"? You was so quick to state that the article is referenced, but you don't give us links? How many articles in Misplaced Pages are referenced to Google? Why you are unable to show us one normal link to reliable source which uses the term "internet brigades" and states that Russian Security Service has such "internet brigades"? You Google spamming is of no use here in Misplaced Pages. May I translate sources on the first page of your Google search for the word "веб-бригада"? The first - link to Russian Misplaced Pages, where is no source is shown to the term "web brigades" (and different term is used from "internet brigade" also, the term used by Russian Misplaced Pages is "web-brigades" and also there are no any sources on where it was taken), second link is to Occult Library (nice place if you are satanist), third link is to forum on crime rate (nothing related to our subject), fourth link is to the forums of Uzbekistan immigrants, fifth link is to the forum of GZT.ru, sixth link is to the forum of Ukrainian president, seventh, eighth, ninth and tenth links are to German Russian forum. Why you couldn't cite reliable source? By the way, Google search for "польша страна идиотов" (English - poland, a land of idiots) shows 285,000 results. Should we create such an article in Misplaced Pages by your line of logic and your own standarts? You won't believe, but search shows even some articles from Rzeczpospolita newspaper and even Gazeta Wyborcza!!! Ja personalnie uwielbiam czytac Wyborcza! Search for "USA a land of idiots" - 1,110,000 results. Search for "russia a land of idiots" is 936,000 results. I think you have a lot of work to do here in Misplaced Pages. Perhaps you could "google" your opponents. I wish you good luck. Vlad fedorov 08:11, 9 April 2007 (UTC)

• Delete. The entire concept is original research. The attempts to remove the POV have made it even worse than before. --- RockMFR 03:03, 9 April 2007 (UTC)
• Move to Web brigade conspiracy theory and include in category:conspiracy theories. The existence of these claimed brigades is unprovable. Anything presented as a fact is speculation and original research. The belief in these brigades is a notable phenomenon. I see these brigades at work all over Misplaced Pages. In fact I myself belong to the KGB Internet troll squad. -- Petri Krohn 08:58, 9 April 2007 (UTC)

I moved the discussion that was here to the talk page (here), as it was not dealing with the article, but with user conduct. Regards, ---Cpt. Morgan (Reinoutr) 18:24, 9 April 2007 (UTC)

Dear Petri Krohn, I respectfully disagree. First, only one source claims this to be a "conspiracy theory". So, this is small minority opinion. Second, there is no single mentioning of KGB in this article. This organization officially does not exist any more. But anyone is free to make any boxes and put them to his/her user page.Biophys 15:31, 9 April 2007 (UTC)

• Speedy delete as recreation of deleted material and attack page. I have changed my vote: it seems that people cannot see the humor in this, and are taking this seriously. Seriously speaking, this is nothing but speculation and lies, not supported by the claimed sources. See here: Talk:Persecution of political bloggers#English translation of Russian article about "Internet troll squads". What Anna Polyanskaya is describing is nothing more than a Russian version of the eternal September. -- Petri Krohn 23:51, 9 April 2007 (UTC)

Reply. What claim was not supported? Every claim in this article is supported by sources that satisfy WP:SOURCE in my opinion.Biophys 02:14, 10 April 2007 (UTC)

• Weak keep per Haemo. The sources could be more diverse, but on the whole this is a decent enough start for an article on this supposed phenomenon. Articles relating to intel ops will often have to rely on sources that are of a somewhat speculative nature; maybe the text should make that clearer. Sandstein 12:25, 9 April 2007 (UTC)

Hey man! What you speak about? The aim of those Troll Squads is intimidation and disinformation. How this relates to the intelligence? And why USA support of terrorism is constantly being censured in English Misplaced Pages?Vlad fedorov 12:50, 9 April 2007 (UTC)

• Keep, because I am getting the impression this is more a content dispute than anything else (e.g. the remark And why USA support of terrorism is constantly being censured in English Misplaced Pages? just above me). The subject is real and deserves coverage in an encyclopedia, although it required rigourous cleanup and perhaps a merge with Information warfare should be considered. --Cpt. Morgan (Reinoutr) 13:05, 9 April 2007 (UTC)
• Remove from mainspace but move to the author's userspace rather than delete in order to give him a chance to use his work by adding to the existing articles or starting, finally, a proper article (proper both by name and by scope) on his pet project. This article, however, is as unencyclopedic as the deleted one and is even very close to it. --Irpen 01:37, 10 April 2007 (UTC)
  • Reply. You disputed the title of the article. Can you suggest anything better? Of course, the article could be called "state-sponsored on-line information warfare teams" (or "Russian information warfare teams" if to exclude materials about China). But the current title seems to be more concise and clear...Biophys 02:06, 10 April 2007 (UTC)
    • I can't offer you a title until the article has a clear scope. Is is about the conspiracy theory? Is it about the Putin regime's underground effort to affect the world through an internet? Is it about the broader than Russia phenomenon? Current addition of China looks totally artificial and WP:POINTy. Where is the current title from? Once this all becomes clear, I could offer you a title. I can see many possible scopes coming out of this topic and currently the article does not have any clarity on what its scope is. Therefore, I don't see it in mainspace. --Irpen 17:22, 10 April 2007 (UTC)

A request. May I ask AfD nominator (Vlad Fedorov) do not edit this article during the deletion discussion?! Everyone else is welcome. Vlad transforms this article to a garbage in order to "prove" that article is bad and facilitate its deletion. This is not fair. Biophys

The answer is no. Because you falsify information from the sources. You add a lot of original research. And by the way, it is not your userpage in your namespace. This deletion by you of the text from the source you cite demonstrates your Anti-Russian bias and falsification of sources. Good luck.Vlad fedorov 04:40, 10 April 2007 (UTC)

• Keep. Interesting subject, referenced. Some cleanup needed, but that's no big deal. -- Turgidson 04:41, 10 April 2007 (UTC)

Comment. And, yes, some of the reactions on this page remind me of the line "The lady doth protest too much, methinks" from Hamlet (III, ii, 239). — Turgidson 14:52, 10 April 2007 (UTC)

• Vehement keep. Nicely sourced; imperfect but able to be improved. Let's help expose Putin's thuggery every chance we get. Biruitorul 05:51, 10 April 2007 (UTC)
  • Comment: That is not a valid reason for deletion. Misplaced Pages is not a political tool, nor is it a soapbox. See WP:NOT ⇒ SWATJester 22:00, 10 April 2007 (UTC)

• Strong Keep. Article is well sourced and relates to an interesting subject. From some reactions I can read on this page, I would rather think that this article is closer to the truth than some here claim. I am even considering to translate in into French within the next weeks. --Lebob-BE 07:57, 10 April 2007 (UTC)

• Keep - I don't agree with the people who call it well-sourced. It isn't, it's still full of speculation and such. And the counter-reactions here are no indication of its merit. But! It does also contain some true, sourced information, and yes, it is definitely in the middle of a dispute. So, it's a start. Let's have at it and see where it winds up, maybe consider a merge at that point, and keep the disputed tags on in the meantime. Do not delete sourced information. --Abu-Fool Danyal ibn Amir al-Makhiri 17:38, 10 April 2007 (UTC)

• Abstract thought. Do you, Biophys, want to say us, that people in FSB, instead of performing their direct duties, are having fun in internet blogs and forums?! It's disgraceful and very revolting! I think, we should write an open collective letter or something to the President and director of FSB. We are fair taxpayers, and we have the right to know, that FSB doesn't have fun at internet forums in the working time, but really works to safeguard the Homeland! ellol 19:22, 10 April 2007 (UTC)
  • Let's act immediately, friends! While the bastartds are relaxing at the working place, Homeland is defenseless! Vlad Fedorov! I have already composed the draft of the letter, I need your help to make it legally correct! Biophys! The land of your ancestors is defenseless! We'll give you parabellum, and you'll protect its borders! Hurry! Every minute may become the last for the country! ellol 19:37, 10 April 2007 (UTC)

Since your question is about FSB, let's discuss it here: Talk:Federal_Security_Service_of_the_Russian_Federation#What_is_the_purpose_of_FSB.3F. In short, NKVD, KGB and FSB never worked to "safeguard the Homeland", but to control the entire Russian population, and importantly the public opinion abroad (!) (two $ billions were spent only for funding foreign anti-war movements). They work and always worked against civilian populations of their own country and other countries. Hence, the disinformation and propaganda is their primary goal.Biophys 20:48, 10 April 2007 (UTC)

It's very good you have appeared here! I already wanted to leave. You can take parabellum in the room 237, campus building N5. The code is A43HF4. And one more thing. The mayor appointed you the rank of junior sergeant. Now, really hurry. Your sector for tonight is the Far East and Syberia. Then, put the parabellum backwards. Damnit! I'll find somebody who will substitute you. Guys! who want to patrol area from Kaliningrad to the Ural mountains for tonight? Sign here! ellol 21:07, 10 April 2007 (UTC)

• Strong delete poorly sourced with unreliable sources, recreation of deleted material, POV fork of a twice deleted article, original research, neologism, conspiracy theory and about a million other reasons for deletion. ⇒ SWATJester 21:57, 10 April 2007 (UTC)

• Strong keep The Washington Post, The Guardian and Reuters are unreliable sources, my my, what is this world coming to? --Saint-Paddy 01:27, 11 April 2007 (UTC)

• It had already come to wide-scale propagandist campaign against Russia. But you do not notice it, because you have no solid knowledge about Russia. If WP writes Russians are eating christian babies for breakfast you'll trust even that. ellol 05:53, 11 April 2007 (UTC)
• Strong keep for the reasons listed above, additionally the sources come from credible organizations including the Guardian. At the very least the popular media is reporting on it. --BuddyJesus 02:55, 11 April 2007 (UTC)

• Keep but clarify language that it is a belief held by a number of people, and possibly a conspiracy theory, and that the existence of said brigades is controversial. However, I think it meets the criteria under fringe theories, and furthermore from reading the discussion I have come to suspect that many of the objections to the article have to do with the content and not bona fide research or POV concerns, and may be political in nature. As long as the article presents itself as documentation of a social phenomenon, I think we should err on the side of retaining it. --Kadin2048 02:03, 11 April 2007 (UTC)

• Strong Keep. I've seen several sources of media referencing this type of behavior in several formats, not to mention having witnessed it myself (yes, yes, original research). I look forward to working on this page a bit once I find more information in the American media about it, because this clearly is not localized phenomena - it's happening in many places. Besides -- I'm always up for a good conspiracy. Kuroji 02:42, 11 April 2007 (UTC)
• Keep. This is a very well-sourced article. Even if the "internet brigades" do not exist, it has been referenced enough by outside media to warrant notation. ASBands 05:05, 11 April 2007 (UTC)

• Keep, but if it overlaps with any similar articles on Internet censorship merge it . Sources need to be improved. Even if such brigades are a conspiracy theory it is worth documenting the theory (and labelling it as such). Maybe it could be extended to a general examination of sockpuppets and astroturfing for the purpose of censorship, removing the emphasis on only one or two countries?
• Keep., but I should point out that similar teams can be found in Chinese (網特, which means government agent on network), and it should not be Russian-only issue. Once information is available, I hope this page can be generalized to contain both Russian and Chinese context, not just Russian context. User:csmth 13:50 11 April 2007 (HKT)
• Delete. An article seems to be nothing more than a hearsay, with an effort to legitimize it by citing "sources". The list of sources contains Reuters and Washinton Post, which is misleading, since both of them support a tiny "Miscellaneous" section of the article, not the bulk of the article which describes Internet brigades in Russia. Other sources are extremely unreliable. The "meaty" parts of the article, that is, the Behavior and Tactics sections are so generic as to be useless. -- Peter malenkov (talk 06:00, 11 April 2007 (UTC).
• Strong keep when it comes to contentious articles, the things that are contended should be removed, cleaned up, sourced, and attributed. The article on the whole discusses a matter which has definitely received major media attention and does have verifiable sources available. Notability is established and sourced. The article needs cleanup, but it's far from a lost cause. This article has much higher quality than a great deal on wikipedia. So with regards to policy, it's a keeper. With regards to my own opinion on the matter, there's something ammusing about deleting an article about internet censorship. i kan reed 07:47, 11 April 2007 (UTC)

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